I'm a klutz ... TS responses only

[LeaP]

I hesitate posting this because of its apparently sexist content, but having had it validated by both trans women as well as GGs, here goes ...

I have become a complete klutz. I bump things, knock them over, trip, drop things, break things, lose things, walk into doors, cut myself, burn myself, hit my head on things, spill food and drinks, and the list goes on. It happens at home, at work, wherever. It's driving me NUTS. Moreover, I feel like I'm coming across like a ditz. The other day I got up, knocked a dish off a side table, stumbled backwards and knocked over a big plant, sending dirt all over the kitchen, and then tripped on my way to get a dustpan and broom. O.M.G. :eek:

When I finally said something to my wife, she gave me one of the "well, you wanted to be a woman" answers. This from someone who will tolerate no hint of sexism. That was followed by "why do you think men take care of women!" ... Ahh, er - validating? Huh?

I can only assume that this is somehow due to hormones. I can't really think of anything else that might account for it. Anyone else?

Given my new propensities, a 12 step program probably isn't a good idea ...

[arbon]

I don't know I have always been somewhat of a klutz and don't think much has changed in that area.
I think I forget and lose things more easily but may just be getting older.

Actually somethings I have gotten a lot better at like I used to lock my keys in my car very frequently, a few times a year, but it has not happened at all a few years in a row now. Very proud of myself!

[LeaP]

Oh, and I forget things more too ...forgot to add that one…

[Leah Lynn]

So, you've described me perfectly. I think. I may have forgotten...


Leah

[GabbiSophia]

so far I am not a Klutz... BUT!! I bump my new booblets into everything ... and door jams hurt !! I think my depth sense is off. I second the forgetting things.

[Dianne S]

Like GabbiSophia, I'm not a klutz except when it comes to bashing my budding boobs. (Wow, alliteration...)

I get a surprising stab of pain on a pretty regular basis a couple of times a day. I guess I'm not just used to it. Also, I've only been on estradiol for a week, though spironolactone for 6 months.

[LeaP]

I had the same issue for a while. I wasn't used to flesh being there ... But as far as I know, my hands and feet haven't shifted position.

[Sammy777]

Klutz = check
Total "Blonde moments" = check
Fallen/Tripped going UP stairs = check
Walked/Bumped into things, like walls = check
Finding myself putting my hands/arms out for balance, barefoot no less = check

Mind you I previously worked regularly at heights ranging from 20 to 100+ feet up, usually with a pleasant disregard for safety and OSHA rules. All the while usually with some sort of dangerous power tool in my hands. :D

Something I would not fathom, nor feel comfortable or safe doing today.
And that sediment has nothing to do with being a woman, nor a few years older now.
Because, honestly, I am in better shape now then I ever was back then.

And here I thought I was the only recently turned Blonde in the crowd :lol2:



[No Blondes were harmed in the making of this post]

[PretzelGirl]

Haven't had the klutz issues. The memory, yes. But that started pre-HRT. Forget people's names that I use every day. Mid sentence I can't come up with common words. I attribute it to age. A bit early I would think, but we are all different.

[Kate T]

I remember seeing a TV show once, can't remember what on, but I do remember an MTF TS individual was interviewed who had been a professor of architecture and she felt that since going on HRT her spatial reasoning was much harder and required a lot more effort.

[Aprilrain]

I have had no such problems. Since I've transitioned I've handled unwieldy power tools I've driven trucks with a fully loaded trailers attached (backing up too), I've piloted small planes and can parallel park! I often watch, in frustration, men doing "male" tasks badly and then have to go redo it myself. I do feel a bit less strong but not as much as I would have thought.

[LeaP]

(dawn starts breaking ...)

Adina's and April's responses go me thinking further about this. Adina brought up spatial relations perception, an ability that is known to be dimorphic. It is also something on which I've always scored at the tippy top of test results. April cited a bunch of activities with which I have no issues whatsoever. It was her inclusion of parallel parking that first caught my attention, as I wasn't trying to invoke comments some have made in past discussions about their girly bumbling and how delighted they were to acquire it. (The potential sexist reading that I mentioned in the OP.)

I have had a noticeable change in my ability to keep my coordination. It manifests only in my immediate vicinity - very close indeed. April also mentioned tools. I don't have any issue with them, heavy or otherwise, making me realize how much my issue appears to be motion-related. I've been knocking tools all over the place - but don't seem to have a problem once I have them in-hand. (Well, OK, I put a screwdriver through my hand once trying to loosen a stubborn machine part, but that was pre-HRT ...) None of this addresses memory issues, of course, but a shift in spacial perception would account for the coordination problem. The question is whether this is something that can shift under the influence of hormones.

Got some research to do ...

[Kris Avery]

I'll add my comment here.

Funny that this should come up....

Just this morning, my wife and I were trying to exchange the car and the van so I could get the oil changed in both of them (awww).
(she would take my car to work and I would exchange them on-site)

My "plan" was to have each of us put the keys from the vehicle we "normally" drive in our respective 'purse/pocket' (as the case may be).
Then, the backup key we each carry for the other vehicle (either in her purse or in my car's console).... would be what was used to take the vehicle to get the oil changed.

Somehow, this is an infinitely simple concept about what key (of the 4) went where.. but somehow, because I was sooo worried about the "ending state".... I couldn't figure it out.
She got to laughing and laughing at me and nearly couldn't stop.

She teased me and said 'for someone as brilliant as you not being able to figure this out is a clear sign that you are having "issues" as she smiled from ear to ear'.

I just said, I hadn't had all my coffee, but as I sit typing this... I still have a nagging sensation at the back of my mind that I'm doing it wrong.

I guess I (was) born a blonde and it's showing - badly.

Perhaps as HRT activates inactive chromosomal expression at the cellular level... I find that my other set of genes are damaged.
Wendy

[Frances]

I have always been a klutz, now I cannot do math either.

[Kris Avery]

Adding to my earlier comment....

As we got ready to go out the door, I dropped several items, one of them a water bottle and the lid landed upside down on my toe. (ouch)

Followed by me chasing my wife out in the driveway as she forgot her iPad she didn't want it, but as I looked down, I had MINE in my hand not hers.

She came back up the driveway, as she then had realized that she didn't have on her FitBit fitness tracker (we are competing against each other to take the most steps a day) - fun challenge.

Yes, I think there are a few things going on here. I'm not sure it's all Estrogen related (since I'm pretty sure hers is falling off) and may, in fact, have to do with age.

BTW, I can't say I have tripped on stairs... but then again, we have a ranch style home.:heehee:
Wendy

[Rianna Humble]

I definitely haven't tripped on the stairs ... since the last time.

But in my case, I put it down to premature old age :heehee:

[Sammy777]

Since I've transitioned I've handled unwieldy power tools I've driven trucks with a fully loaded trailers attached (backing up too), I've piloted small planes and can parallel park!
I often watch, in frustration, men doing "male" tasks badly and then have to go redo it myself.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I still have no problems wielding my power tools :D
Although these days I much prefer to do it with my feet on the ground as compared to standing on top of [not inside] one of these without a harness or the extension legs, lol. [May not look it in the pics, but that Genie goes 30 feet high.]
242774

I still love to drive the wheels off a car, lol, that talent hasn't faded a bit, or my ability to parallel park by pulling into a spot.

Redoing jobs? Ohhhhh I can't stand that, LOL.
My personal favorite is when a "professional" explains something to me with their "I hope I dumbed it down enough for her" speech.
I love the look on their faces when I reply with a proper technical diagnosis of the problem complete with the part numbers to repair it. :lol2:

[LeaP]

Interesting ...

1) The male brain is appx. 8-10% larger than the female brain, even allowing for body size difference

2) Brain development is significantly influenced by sex hormones. While both estrogen and testosterone maintain parietal lobe size, testosterone appears key to its greater size in men.

3) The parietal lobe synthesizes and coordinates sensory information and is also responsible for spatial intelligence

4) The parietal lobe (and rear of the frontal cortex) declines in size with age, starting at menopause in women, and later in life (typically mid-60s) in men as their respective sex hormone levels go into decline.

While it is true that men are better at processing spatial information, as measured by such things as 3d rotation tests, they can both process to completion successfully. But by different strategies. As discovered in testing, men typically process a 3d rotation in a single step, while women have adapted to processing it step-wise.

It seems reasonable to suspect that radically reducing testosterone, even while radically increasing estrogen, in a male-bodied person will result in a decline in size in the parietal lobe. Further, that spatial processing would be affected. I don't suppose that would affect HOW one has learned to process spatial inputs, but it seems logical that trans-women would do so more slowly than they are accustomed.

All speculative, of course.

[Jorja]

I am not a klutz at all. Now where the hell did I put my pen and my glasses, and that sandwich? Has anyone seen my car keys?

[LeaP]

http://members.efn.org/~lanegq/articles/MTF-cc-comp.pdf

Bingo!

This link is to the results of an imaging study conducted to test whether white matter microstructure in the brains of MTFs shows a trend toward feminization. It uses fractional antistrophy as the metric. FA is a measure of diffusion directionally and structure that, in the brain is sexually dimorphic in certain structures and traces to differences in male vs female myelin sheathing.

This study is particularly interesting because it looks at BOTH transsexuals who have never taken hormones as well as those who have, finding differences in a few areas. Cis male and female controls were used. For purposes of this thread it showed not only clear differences among males, females, and transsexuals, with the latter's measures usually falling between the cis groups, but a decrease in left parietal lobe activation in MTFs after hormones - essentially supporting my laywoman's speculation re the parietal lobe, though not from a size perspective.



"... in a sample of treated and untreated MtF transsexuals and control males, it was reported that both transsexual groups had increased activation in the temporo-occipital regions and decreased activation in the left parietal lobe, suggesting a priori differences between control males and MtF transsexuals (Schöning et al., 2010). In addition, comparing chronically hormone treated MtF and FtM transsexuals to male and female controls, we found a parietal hypoactivation in the MtF transsexuals, but no significant differences for FtM transsexuals."

And ...



"MtF transsexuals differed from male and female controls in the right and the left superior longitudinal fasciculus. The SLF connects complex cortical regions that subserve higher cognitive functions and that are sexually dimorphic. Sex differences in cognition are consistently found in spatial abilities and verbal fluency (Kimura, 1999); males outshine females in the former but the females outshine males in the latter. It has been reported that the performance of untreated MtF transsexuals in mental rotation tasks is consistent with that of their biological sex (Haraldsen et al., 2003; Slabbekoorn et al., 1999). Schöning et al. (2010) studied spatial cognition using fMRI and found that untreated and treated MtF transsexuals had increased activation in the temporo-occipital regions and decreased activation in the left parietal lobe compared to control men. We have investigated brain activation during mental rotation in chronically hormone treated MtF transsexuals. These MtF transsexuals present less activation than male controls in the superior parietal lobe (Brodman’s area 7) and higher activation than females in the superior part of the gyrus frontalis (Brodman’s area 9) (Carrillo et al., 2010). Interestingly, these two cerebral regions are connected by the SLF (Makris et al., 2005; Hua et al., 2009)."

[GabbiSophia]

I am curious Lea in your quest to see if HRT makes us Klutz... My wife and I have spoken numerous times and my therapist and I talk about how true ts just seem to be on a different plane than others. To be honest I have not done any research trying to see if TS are "smarter" than the general population but I notice a most of the older TS that I have met doing higher end jobs. In your quote it talks about "The SLF connects complex cortical regions that subserve higher cognitive functions", I wonder if a high thought process is not a direct result from some embryotic development of not getting the right hormone wash therefore it allows higher thinking? I reason this only based on history that TS in a lot of ancient society were revered and held higher. ?? I am sure that I am talking out my butt but does the HRT stop that higher function?? or as someone said earlier "Make me a bimbo?"..

[LeaP]

Nope.

That was simple, huh?

[GabbiSophia]

Yep

Very good

[Sammy777]

http://members.efn.org/~lanegq/articles/MTF-cc-comp.pdf

Bingo!

TL;DR But does look quite interesting and DL'ed it for later consumption.

Although, it doesn't seem, at least at first glance, to go on to explain the notable increase in my spaz attacks of late.
I may have overstated my original list as not all of these are "new".
I was by no means perfect before, but I have none the less, noted an increase in these annoying attributes as of late.

[LeaP]

It really doesn't. Translating an FA score difference in a nerve bundle and tying to activation differences isn't the same as "I walked into the wall because..."

At best it's tantalizing in context because of the parietal lobe change - under hormones.

[KellyJameson]

With acceptance of my gender identity I realized I had always had a "thing relationship" with my body that came out of "this body is not me" but something apart from me that I must live with.

Not hate or loathing but it being foreign to me.

One of the consequences of this was a lack of body awareness. I did not take the time to develop that body awareness as "me in physical space"

I have taken up Yoga and dance to improve the relationship between me and my body from the neglectful relationship I had with it.

I think women have more inner dialog than men do and this "brain chatter" can interfere with you living in the moment. This brain chatter has always been a problem for me and I'm learning how to use my body to stay in the moment and quiet my mind.

I'm not trying to be graceful "to be considered more feminine" but moving in a more graceful fluid manner will hopefully come out of the disciplines I'm practicing that keep me consciously focused in the here now.

I think it will also offer benefits as I age and my body loses some of its strength and flexibility.

I'm rarely a klutz when I'm fully in the moment and aware of what is around me but as soon as my mind floats off somewhere I'm walking into telephone poles.

It's an awareness thing that you do through and with your body that also takes you out of your head. Something I think is very important for all women to practice because it also teaches you how to be safe in public spaces through this awareness.

[Ann Louise]

I forget a bit more now, too, particularly since in Washington we recently legalized... uh, what was I saying?

[Kimberly Kael]

I've experienced zero difference in my coordination. I still play the same musical instruments at comparable levels of skill, and I've started playing another since I started on HRT. I still have the same silly habit of tossing things and catching them behind my back that my wife assures me is a clear sign of being brought up as male. My guess is that if I got self-conscious about doing things like that I would lose some coordination, but it has nothing to do with brain chemistry and everything to do with socialization.

I've noticed that people tend to attribute whatever happens in their lives to expectations. Women who fumble something will often attribute it to being a woman, while men will tease each other about something getting tangled in their skirts. People who misplace things will blame it on age if they happen to be middle aged or older, no matter that they've always misplaced things throughout their lives. We've learned to associate femininity and clumsiness and turned it into something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Put men in heels and see how often they stumble! Don't encourage them to play sports when they're young and see how well they catch things. Tell them they're bad at math and see how much energy they put into learning anything math related. It's a vicious cycle that I would rather help change than propagate.

[LeaP]

I've made no such associations. I still don't.

[Kimberly Kael]

Loss of upper body strength is a very different and well documented effect of HRT. It sounds to me like you're taking reasonable precautions.

[Sammy777]

I've experienced zero difference in my coordination. I still play the same musical instruments at comparable levels of skill, and I've started playing another since I started on HRT.

I do believe that fine motor control and hand-eye coordination are different then internal balance or equilibrium.
You can be a Eddie Van Halen on the guitar, yet still be clumsy enough to fall off the stage. I've seen it happen. :lol2:

[Rebecca Watson]

I can only assume that this is somehow due to hormones. I can't really think of anything else that might account for it. Anyone else?

I was driving with my sister and she said "I guess that means you can't reverse parallel park anymore?" I responded "what do you mean?" And she replied, "You know, now that you're a girl." It was mean as a joke, but after that comment, my reverse parallel parking was really bad. Until one day... when I really nailed it, and I realized it was all just in my mind (and some bad luck).

I don't think I would describe myself as a klutz. (Although I still sometimes forget I can't go through partially opened doorways sideways without banging my boobies!)

- Becky

[Sammy777]

"I guess that means you can't reverse parallel park anymore?"

LOL!
The funny thing is - Most people [men and women alike] really suck at parallel parking.
Simply because most people rarely get the opportunity to do it.

Unless of course you live or work in a metropolitan area, then it is a survival requirement. LOL
Spend time in Manhattan and you quickly learn to master it.
Spend enough time there and you can back a Semi into a space a VW just left, blindfolded. :lol2:

Now of course, pulling into a tight spot and nailing it first shot - That is an art form. :D

[Leah Lynn]

I've never had a problem parallel parking; even in an 18 wheeler. I might forget to set the brakes, though.

Leah

[Jorja]

Brakes???? Brakes are for sissies! :)