Is this crossdressing?

[Danitgirl1]

A few weeks ago there was a post on this forum in which a person noted that they went out in public dressed in women's clothes that were not obviously women's clothes. In other words they were clothes that could 'pass' as men's clothes. This prompted me to write this blog: https://daniellaargento.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/when-is-crossdressing-not-crossdressing/
Then I bought a pair of women's cowboy boots that could 'pass' as men's boots and wore them in male mode to a music concert (please see https://daniellaargento.wordpress.com/?p=172&preview=true&preview_id=172 for more).
I was thus confronted with the reality of wearing women's clothes in stealth.
Is this a rather strange form of underdressing? Was it crossdressing at all? Or was I just dressed in a manner (mostly) of my choosing expressing the feminine side of my character as best as I was able?
The more I think about it the more I feel that it is me exppressing my feminine side in a 'safe' if closeted manner. I have an item of clothing that I like, that is comfortable (they are in fact the most comfortable boots I own) and that expresses who I am...
This truly is an interesting journey...
:battingeyelashes:

[cheryl reeves]

i wear gender neutral clothing..i have to wear mens shoes when dressed because size 13 womens shoe is hard to find..sometimes i under dress,sometimes i don't,i just try to be me

[Marcelle]

Hi Dani,

IMO it really depends on the person and how they feel about the clothing. For example my wife wears "men's" hiking boots when we go camping because she has a wider foot and men's boots fit more comfortably for long hikes. I doubt she would consider herself a cross dresser. However, if the person is a cross dresser and believes the footwear/clothing is that of the opposite gender even if it could pass in both realms, then they are more likely to feel as thought they are covertly cross dressing.

Hugs

Isha

[Lily Catherine]

Personally my distinction is between presenting as male or female. I do not consider myself cross-dressed if I am presenting male but wearing women's shirt and jeans (1 in 7 outfits currently).

[charlenesomeone]

Being who we are is the most important. Underdressing, only one person knows for sure.
Any exterior item, no matter how "ambiguous" is expression to the world.

[Katey888]

Hi Dani.... starting the day thinking... (reaches for aspirin) and the week too... :facepalm:

Given that 'crossdresser' is a term that reaches from the occasional sexual fetishist right through to pre-op transsexuals, I think your example qualifies, even if the bulk of the activity is happening between your ears... (can't get really get more stealth than what you know and no-one else can tell... :))

To me, your idea of "expressing my feminine side in a 'safe' if closeted manner" is completely valid. In the same way that folk may hold very strong political views but have the right to express them in a safe and confidential manner through anonymous polling, some of us may also choose to do the same with our feminine aspect. We don't all have to be 'out there' to find the satisfaction and contentment that makes us balanced individuals.

If it makes you happy - do it! :D

Katey x

[pamela7]

until about the 10th of January I did not know the words "crossdressing" nor "underdressing", but i underdressed. Since then I've worn mostly clothing made for women. I don't know if I need these words to justify why I choose my clothing, but I do know I am happier wearing clothing made for women or made for me but styled femininely. We each might have a different definition, most here would say I present as "a man in a dress". For me its not that simple, it's "me in a dress", and as I am happier this way, maybe I'm enjoying some fem catch-up time after 50+years of being angry. Maybe most men are angry and the clothes are the answer to the anger and conflict in the world? Who knows? If you want to call it cross-dressing do so, I think its "natural dressing". Maybe Adam's figleaf was uncomfortable and ever since ...?

[Kate Simmons]

I guess it would have to actually come down to the essence of who we are. :)

[Erica Marie]

In my true and honest opinion, you are no longer crossdressing. You are merely getting dressed and leaving home for the day. They are your cloths, why cant you wear them? In todays terms I think the word crossdressing should just be throw out. Women have been wearing mens cloths since the beginning of time, now its the mens turn to wear what ever we like. Besides I dont consider myself 100% male, so why must I wear all male cloths?
I myself wear womens cloths daily. Its all a blend of cloths that doesnt scream "guy dressed as a women".

[kimdl93]

In another thread, someone mentioned the aspect of intent. If you wore discretely feminine items with the intent of going under the radar then it's cross dressing. If you are indifferent to whether the clothes are originally intended for male or female then, it's not.

[Mark/Rebecca]

Selfridges, the forward thinking department store has announced they are getting rid of mens and womens departments and will have 3 floors of clothing without assigning gender. They are also removing their male and female mannequins and using gender neutral models. Perhaps a giant step toward social acceptance?

[meganmartin]

I would have to say if you are a cd then it must be cross-dressing.
However many women wear men's clothing because it is more comfortable or for whatever reason.
But don't do so for the same reasons we do or it does not fullfill some inner need.
For instance my wife prefer's men's tube socks and sweatshirts, but she is not a cd by no means.

[NicoleScott]

Not that long ago, many dictionary definitions included a reason, such as "for sexual or emotional reasons" in addition to the wearing of clothing normally worn by the opposite sex. Not so much any longer, as most sources define crossdressing using the wearing of the clothing alone without motive. In its description, Wikipedia specifically excludes any motive. If so, underdressing is crossdressing, and so is wearing of women's clothes (or boots in your case) that "pass" as men's clothes or just clothes (like t-shirts). So is costuming, according to the latest definitions. I never considered Mrs. Doubtfire and Tootsie as crossdressers because they wore disguises and were not driven from within as we are. But by definition, they crossdressed. My way of thinking is if you are driven from within, it's crossdressing but if the drive is external (costume, disguise, theatrics, entertainment) it's not crossdressing. That's just me. Dictionaries see it differently. It's just about the clothes, not the drive.
It can get complicated. There have been times when I put on makeup and a wig, for my own home alone pleasure, but no articles of women's clothing. I'm a crossdresser, and I consider this a crossdressing act even though there was no "opposite sex" clothing worn.

[Teresa]

Mark/Rebecca,
Somehow it's feels as if Selfridges are spoiling our fun ! I'm intrigued how they get round the shape difference with their mannequins !

[pamela7]

Mark/Rebecca,
Somehow it's feels as if Selfridges are spoiling our fun ! I'm intrigued how they get round the shape difference with their mannequins !

no-o-o, i feel fully they are helping mainstream come into fully-flexible attire - surely your wife can't argue about something as established and respectable as Selfridges saying there is no difference?

[ReineD]

Selfridges, the forward thinking department store has announced they are getting rid of mens and womens departments and will have 3 floors of clothing without assigning gender. They are also removing their male and female mannequins and using gender neutral models.

Wow! London is just so progressive! :)

Here's the Selfridges Agender Shop webpage, although I wonder how many of our members would want to dress like that. The clothing, worn either by male or female models is perhaps not feminine enough?

http://www.selfridges.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/FhBrowse?freeText=edit+agender&srch=Y&cm_sp=Campaign-_-AgenderLandingPage-_-ShopTheEdit

[Katey888]

Perhaps a giant step toward social acceptance?

More likely just a step towards some market differentiation.... All these fashions are quite youth-focused (you might expect) and fashion for these younger age groups does seem to be going through a bit of an androgynous phase at the moment - so they can more than 'get away' with it; they can hype it up a bit, get some good glossy mag coverage and make a play to be "transcending traditional notions of 'his' and 'hers'..." :facepalm:

Fiddle-faddle! Or just marketing :BS: if you prefer... Call me a cynic, but this will be gone the next time very feminine fashions make a resurgence for women... 18 months? Couple years..? :)

I'd hardly call £1100 bomber jackets and £255 trainers mainstream... not here in the provinces anyway, perhaps amongst the hedge fund managers...

Katey x

[sfwarbonnet]

Mark/Rebecca,
Your comment about gender neutrality at Selfridges brought to mind the skants worn by both males and females in Escape to Farpoint in in Star Trek: The Next Generation. They were essentially dresses and the statement the episode was making was that in the future gender wouldn’t matter. However, it appears that society wasn’t then ready for men in dresses, and I don’t think that men ever again appeared in skants.

[Allisa]

If I am wearing the clothes made for the opposite gender of myself than I am crossdressing. If I wear jeans made for females, shoes obviously female(not high heels),accessories, purse, and enhance my more feminine features than I am expressing my femininity but not hiding my gender than I am cding, but if I only under dress I am still cding even though no-one can see the clothes and expressing my masculinity. As you said it truly is an interesting journey.

[CynthiaD]

I don't consider myself to be crossdressing unless people are calling me "ma'am." I often go out wearing all female clothing, pants without wig and forms, but I consider this "stealth mode." But most of my stealth-mode clothing is obviously feminine: embroidered jeans, cowl-neck tops, open toed shoes with bows on them, so I'm generally not very stealthy. But I don't feel crossdressed without my forms and my wig, and perhaps a little makeup.

But this rule is just for me. If you feel differently about things, more power to you.

[Pat]

Is stealth clothing crossdressing? How about: it is if you think it is, it's not if you think it's not? Sounds simplistic but as a definition I think it has legs....

I don't know why wearing women's clothing affects me the way it does, but if I get the effect does it matter?

[Beverley Sims]

For want of a better expression let's call it stealth dressing. :)

[Sammy777]

I bought a pair of women's cowboy boots that could 'pass' as men's boots

This comes from someone who has worn cowboy boots since I was 17-ish.
I used to wear them everyday. Work, night out, dates, as dress shoes with suits, ect. In short I lived in them, lol.
Cowboy/girl boots are a great thing, can last years, even decades if cared for properly and go with anything. [for guys anyway, lol]

I looked at yours and they aren't much different then men's boots so most people will never notice the difference.
Most boots have a 2" to 2.5" heel, the only difference being the style of the heel. [there are a few different heel types]
There was a reason for all this, but I think I forgot it. lol Anyway, have fun with them :D
And when wearing a denim mini + cowboy[girl] boots, get used to being called a cowgirl. :lol2: I'm being serious.


For instance my wife prefer's men's tube socks and sweatshirts, but she is not a cd by no means.
Exactly! men's tube socks are cheap, great for winter AND great under boots for an extra bit of warmth, so the insides don't rub your legs and also keep your feet from sliding wearing stockings. They also protect stockings from getting snagged by the inside of a boot.

[Rachael Leigh]

I will occasionally wear some of my female clothing in male mode usually my half boots, or a top and jeans of course but no I don't consider that crossdressing it's just what I feel like wearing at the time

[sometimes_miss]

Is this crossdressing?
Again, we have the obvious difference of opinion, depending on who is the one determining the definition. If someone else uses the word crossdressing to describe your action, then your putting on clothes normally reserved for the opposite sex constitutes crossdressing no matter why you're doing it. OTOH if you're putting on your wife's jacket to go to the mailbox and just want to keep warm and dry, they you would probably not consider that to be crossdressing; nor would, say, a guy who threw on his wife's robe when running out of a burning house. To one person the intent defines it, to the other, the act.

[ptp009]

Hi all,

When not fully dress I like to go out with leggings and phose, girls flats and coat and kinda thats it. I think I like to push the envelope as a guy and when and if someone comments I answer positively give the just want to be comfortable. Have to be careful tho not to meet people I know but what if I did? So What. HUGGS....Jenn

[sfwarbonnet]

I am wearing off-black thigh highs, women’s pull-on pants, panties, a short slip and a bra. All the clothes have a raison d’etre: like the thigh highs are better than pantyhose as they are easier to put on and don’t need to be lowered to go to the bathroom, and they don’t make indentations as do knee- or calf-high socks; the pull-on pants are much easier to put on than zippered pants; full-cut panties are more comfortable than men’s no fly briefs; the slip is easier to tuck into the pants than cotton undershirts; and the bra keeps the narrow non-adjustable straps on the slip from falling off my shoulders. Is this crossdressing? I think so...

[femmale]

When I read the initial post on this thread I identified with it instantly. Today I actually went out in my only female item of clothing - black bootcut jeans - for the first time. If you look at the labels inside it does give the game away (Per Una 10R) but that's it as regards stating it is 'female'. The cut of the jeans is better than my male jeans and the fabric is softer so coupled with my brown male shoes which have loud clicking heels and Inspire perfume, today I felt feminine. Downside is that I didn't have time to put my clear nail polish on nor change my bag for the feminine (but just about passes as male!) shoulder bag. Does my post sound a bit strange or sad with my efforts today? I wont be offended if anyone says so, just glad of opinions really. Thanks.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Dani, When I dress I want to be as feminine as possible.:daydreaming:

[taossane]

I always dress fully or not at all. Mixing with male clothes just does not feel right.

[Rhian]

I wear womens jeans and leggings very frequently and I don't consider myself to be crossdressing when I wear them, as I'm not trying to pass as a woman and they don't make me feel particularly feminine. My Mum is very religious and would hit the roof if she knew that I was a crossdresser, yet she is quite happy to buy me jeans from the womens section, which suggests she considers it perfectly acceptable for men to wear womens jeans. When I'm not wearing womens skinny jeans I'd be wearing the male version and there is very little difference in how they are cut.

[sfwarbonnet]

My wife buys me women's pull-on pants, thigh high nylons and sheer pantyhose, and white cotton panties, so she obviously finds shopping for me in the womens department acceptable.

[Lexi_83]

Crossdressing yes or no aside, going out to clubs en femme most women might be curious but not interested. But dressing androgynously (for example, tight jeans, a silky top but no bra or breast forms, a tiny bit of eye makeup but no or muted lipstick - much more interested. So rock stars are onto something!

[Lorileah]

^^^ or they assume you are gay

[Stephanie47]

I only consider myself engaging in cross dressing if I am striving to appear as a woman. If a person is wearing a garment made for the other sex there can be motives other than "Look at me, I'm passing myself of as a woman." Or, a man. My daughter use to buy men's jeans because women's did not have pockets to haul her stuff around. Joe Nameith wore pantyhose and construction workers also because it kept his legs warm in the cold. Why pay outrageous prices for pantyhose made for men. I wear women's support pantyhose when my legs are really bothering me due to illness. I do not consider that cross dressing or underdressing. I'm just too cheap to buy support hosiery at outrageous prices. I've never considered underdressing to be cross dressing. I tried it several times because some on this site extoll it. I found it rather boring and did not even remember I was underdressing unless I had to pee.

[sfwarbonnet]

Try these. All are mass-market items in the women’s department, so avoid the outrageous prices of comparable items made for men (if they even exist). The department of origin for suitable attire shouldn't matter. All of them are OK out in public in "boy" mode. Wearing clothes usually associated with the opposite sex rapidly becomes normal. However, items that most people would comsider to be female items and could be spotted, such as a bra and nylons, are more of a challenge to “hide.”. I have found these items both acceptable and practical:

!) Slacks: Women’s pull on pants are much easier to put on than men’s belted pants. They do not need a fake fly, as the absence of it is usually not apparent, but I prefer non-figured and solid color, non-pastel pants so they are not readily identified as women’s clothing.

2) Panties: Underwear with a fly is unnecessary with pull on pants. Although there are no-fly briefs in the men’s department, women’s full-cut briefs work just as well, and are usually cheaper.

3) Slips: Shirttails tend to readily pull out of pull on pants. This can expose panty and pantyhose tops. A “solution” is to wear a full slip that is short enough to be worn with slacks. Also slips are usually made of material that makes it easier to pull on and straighten pants.

4) Bra: This is generally considered a female item, but it can be useful in “boy mode” to keep non-adjustable straps on a slip from falling off the shoulders.

5) Nylons: An MD suggested that I wear pantyhose to avoid the indentation in lower legs that mid-calf or knee-high socks make. Pantyhose do not require anything that is not also needed with pull on pants. Opaque ones are best, as they aren't readily identified as women's hosiery, but that isn't necessary and sheer nylons are OK and are more available. I actually prefer thigh highs as they are easier to put on than pantyhose, they do not need to be lowered to go to the bathroom, and only one leg needs to be thrown out when a run becomes apparent.

6) Purse: One cannot usually keep a wallet, comb, notepad, phone, and keys in the small side pockets and lack of back pockets that are typical of women’s pants. A “solution” is to use a small shoulder purse or handbag, which can either be worn, carried, or secured in a scooter basket when that is available.

[jacques]

hello,
it is a very good question
perhaps the answer is "their not men's clothes or women's clothes - they are my clothes!" (or boots)
luv J

[Eryn]

I wear almost all women's clothing even in male (work) mode. The only exception is a few T-shirts that are male sizes.

I don't consider this to be cross-dressing, though it does give me comfort to know that I'm wearing clothing from that side of the aisle. It was interpreted once as "You cross-dress as a man to go to work." and there is some truth to that.

[Tina_gm]

Dressing in clothing that came from the women's section but is neutral to the point where no one notices is technically cding. Stealth cding perhaps as is under dressing. If it feels better somehow to do so, then do so. I have a pair of men's boot cut jeans my wife says looks like girls jeans. But, they were bought in the jcp men's section and has male number sizing. So I in a way look like I am cding even though I am technically not. It's a MMF isn't it....

[AbigailJordan]

I can totally relate to this topic. I've found myself more and more recently trying to "push the boundaries" of what a guy can and cannot wear. at 42, I've just had my ears pierced for the first time and am loving wearing sparkly studs or cute silver hearts etc.. but even before this, I always tend to keep my nails long, buffed and manicured and usually with at least a clear polish on them if not a bit of glitter.. dress down day at work means girl jeans and a "neutral" looking jumper, (although my metallic fleck jumper did get a couple of comments). But I find more and more that i want to wear a cute rhinestone t-shirt or the gorgeous tiger print jacket I have in the wardrobe and to hell with what anyone thinks.

I have been invited to a festival in a couple of weeks, and I intend to go as crossed as possible. Most people will be strangers and the friends I will be with are pretty laid back anyway.

As for whether it is or isn't cross-dressing, personally I prefer to think that it is.. knowing I am "getting away" with wearing a jumpsuit or smart girl trousers and top makes me feel as though my choices are more accepted by society. Yes people notice, and people wonder, but so far I've found very few (except my closest friends) have had the nerve to actually ask about it.

If anyone ever says "are those womens jeans?" the answer is "no, they're mine". If they ask "why are you wearing those?" the answer is "because I like them".. if they ask "are you a crossdresser" then the answer is "yes".

I suppose it would be different if you were deliberately buying female clothes that you felt looked sufficiently masculine/neutral to wear in guy mode then you're not really embracing the opportunity that dressing allows.

My main everyday jacket is a short black girls bomber jacket.. not one person has ever said anything about it. Only 2 people have even mentioned my ears being pierced.. and only 2 comments have ever been made about my jeans.. the simple fact is, as long as the outfit generally looks "normal", a lot of the time people won't actually pay much attention to whether your pants have pockets or a fly.. you can get away with much more than you think.

[sfwarbonnet]

I have been wearing women's pants with no fly for a couple years, and I don't think anyone noticed. Ditto for suntan thigh highs. Next step is to routinely wear a bra.

[Ceera]

I have several pairs of cargo pants or jeans that used to belong to my late wife, and that she had just rolled the cuffs up on so were easy to unroll and make use of myself. They are certainly from the women's department, but aside from looking at the size labels, you can't really tell them apart from the male versions. I also have a lot of unisex t-shirts that she bought for herself, and I use now in male mode. I don't consider wearing those to be 'cross dressing' - even when every outwardly-visible item once came from her closet, and I'm underdressed with panties (my own, not hand-me-downs from her).

My favorite leather jacket, which I obtained decades before I ever dreamed of cross dressing, is from a women's product line. If you look closely you can see it is cut more full in the chest, to accommodate breasts. But worn on a typical male it doesn't scream "girl clothes". I also have a fur lined hooded vest that I bought more recently at Old Navy - again from the girl's section, yet it passes so well as just practical male wear that no one usually notices it.

To me, it isn't cross-dressing unless you are in some way presenting as the opposite gender - wearing breast forms or makeup, or clothing that is obviously for the other gender, like high heeled shoes on a MtF CD.