The difference between a CD and a TS

[PaulaQ]

... is not 2 years, contrary to the old joke!

A crossdresser is a man who likes to pretend he's a woman sometimes. A transsexual, is a woman who's been forced all her life to pretend that she is a man.

It is a subtle, but profound difference. It's subtle enough that often it is hard to tell one from the other, especially in a society that can't acknowledge that there can sometimes, rarely, be a mismatch between the gender of your mind and the sex of your body. From most cisgender people's perspectives, only the first statement is possible.

I've talked to some CDs who seem to view me as a supercharged version of themselves, someone who puts on an act that lasts forever - where I make permanent changes to my body to enhance the part I'm playing.

In fact, it is quite the opposite. I'm myself now for the first time in my life - my life as a man was a total lie. The changes to my body are to correct horrible disfigurements caused by a life lived with the wrong hormones going through my body. My life now is the most real thing I've ever experienced. My life before transition feels more like a dream, and not a pleasant one.

One of the things I'll say about transition is that if your goal is to physically change to better play a part, you are almost certainly transitioning for the wrong reason. On the other hand, if you find yourself choking on saying the phrase "I'm a man who likes to pretend he's a woman sometimes," then perhaps that is not, in fact who you are.

[Kate Simmons]

The way I see it a TS isn't crossdressing a CDer is. :)

[kimdl93]

True, Kate, it's not CDing for a TS person. At the same time, we are kindred spirits. That's why I favor the imagery of a transgender spectrum. In our life experience, we have share many of the same problems and similar fears, guilt and shame. We differ to the extent that some seek the temporary expression or experience of femininity, while others, myself included, lean more decidedly towards the TS and seriously contemplate a more permanent expression. Still, so much common ground exists.

[meganmartin]

Great down and dirty explanation.
But I have found that there are variations of both Ts and Cd.
There are some TS that have to continue being a crossdresser because of family, work or financial obstacles preventing them to live as they truly feel.
Then they are a few cds who think they are TS to only find out they are somewhere between them too. That is why I hate labels because sometimes the label does not tell the entire story.

[Suzie Petersen]

The confusing thing is that the TS often goes through a phase which seems to others to be the same as what the CD does.
The motivation is very different, but the actions, seen from the publics viewpoint, are similar If not identical.

Since feelings are hard to scientifically describe, some CD'ers may not understand the difference and may go through a phase where they think they are on a path to "becoming TS". Some make the mistake to pursue transition in that belief and later realize the mistake.

It is also not a black or white issue. Some are in doubt their entire life. Some know for sure early on.

- Suzie

[I Am Paula]

I considered myself a CD. Both denial, and ignorance played a part in that. CDing helped keep the GD at bay, but I still thought it was just a hobby. Like a junky, it took more and more to quiet the GD, until I went full time. Then I knew this was one big ass problem.
Yes, I was born TS, just nobody bothered to tell me that.
I got so good at playing the part of a male, that I began believing it.
I wake up every morning, and thank my lucky stars that I fixed that awful problem.

[KlaireLarnia]

A crossdresser is a man who likes to pretend he's a woman sometimes.

Sorry Paula but you are wrong. A cross dresser COULD be a man who pretends he is a woman but not always. A cross dresser is a man who wear women's clothes - nothing more.

I am a cross dresser and very open about it as I don't own more that 5 male items if clothing however I do NOT pretend to be or try and look like a woman.

This is why we have such a hard job shaking the negativity around us. Because even we cannot escape the blinkered view society has and actually re enforces it! :(

[LaurenS]

... if your goal is to physically change to better play a part, you are almost certainly transitioning for the wrong reason.

Thanks for that. Been thinking about "softening" and "enhancing" lately, and this puts it in perspective. Of course, I guess shaving, plucking, hair styles don't count? Not picking, just trying to figure out the borders. Would electrolysis be too much? It would be nice to have softer skin and a better figure, though. From my perspective, I don't want to transition; I like being a man, too.

[PatMatoole]

Agree with Klaire!! While i sometimes wear women's clothes, I do not pretend to be a woman. I may change some mannerisms, etc. but I am merely a man wearing "women's clothing"

So if i set up an online profile that says I am female, and I enter chat rooms etc, etc and pretend I am a woman, then I am a crossdresser, even though i NEVER wear a single piece of women's clothing???

Cross dress simply means wearing the clothing of the opposite gender.

[Rachael Leigh]

Ive never really considered the transition part and I know I never will. I know I am a man but yes I have a feminine side to me that has to be expressed at times.
Those of you who make that very difficult decision to make the transition are very brave and I must admit I do not understand the difficulties you have encountered.
This forum has opened my eyes somewhat to what even me someone who does enjoy my fem side to you ladies who have chosen a very different path and has educated me a lot.
Thank you Paula
Leigh

[Krisi]

I don't think it's at all as simple as you present it. We each have our own definitions and there are many variations among them. For example, a man could be a very casual crossdresser, just wearing panties once in a while, or a very serious crossdresser, spending most of his time dressing and playing the part of a woman.

As for transsexuals, some have lived their whole lives believing they were born into the wrong body, while for others, there was an event that triggered this feeling.

[Georgina]

I agree with Klaire and PatMatoole that crossdressing is merely the wearing of clothes of the opposite sex. This term seems to have been hijacked more than any other. Even though this site is headed crossdressers I believe there are few crossdressers here.

[pamela7]

Paula you make such great posts, but today I am confused. Given how subconsciously we might have buried our non-physical sense of gender, given that we are often unsure whether we are CD or TS, on a daily basis, I would say we're not even a spectrum because that is only one dimension. We have sexual attractions and preferences but they only define our sexual orientation, which can be hetero, bi or homo but also shift in time, and then we have our physical bodies, mostly M or F but also GQ, and then we have our sense of self, a result of life's conditioning (nurture) as well as our nature, a long long debate. I myself have sufficient theory of the self to know how complex the landscape is, that imprinting experiences shape who we are, as do the chems in the womb during gestation. We're lost, well, I am anyway. Being open emotionally I picked up this CD/TS group field and started identifying with the full spectrum, wondering if I was all my life a closet female in a male body, albeit therefore lesbian, to then come back to myself and feel as a man in a dress.

But, no, there is more, there is a feeling when dressed. I don't know what it's like to feel like a woman, and now I question whether I feel like a man does, after all I'm not into abuse and violence nor fighting nor arguments, i'm not into stalking women or being a sexual predator, and yet there's a joy in chopping wood and heavy manual labour.

So, it's complicated.

xxx Pamela

[Laura912]

Ah, yes, what color is the rainbow? :battingeyelashes:

[MsVal]

Female side, male side... I get it, but I don't have it.

I understand having two 'sides' to one's self. Many on this forum have described their experiences quite well. So well, in fact, that I am absolutely certain that I don't have sides. I have "me". Just me. Take it or leave it, I am me 24/7/365.

I've lived with "me" all my life but only in the past two years did I really get to know me. It was hard at first. I really didn't like me. Me was an ugly, shameful, disgusting abomination. A pervert. I was scared of me. I thought that me would ruin my marriage and my life. I would break down and cry whenever I thought of me. The more I knew about me, the less I wanted to be near me. Like Siamese twins, however, I was never able to get away from me.

A prescription medication has been quite helpful in managing the anxiety and a skilled therapist has been quite helpful in understanding me. I've come to learn that me is not all that bad. I may not yet fully embrace me, but I have reached the point where I am mostly comfortable with me. I want to know more about this person that's been hiding in plain sight all these years.

My gender is both masculine and feminine. I exhibit characteristics of both. What's changed is that I am becoming more comfortable expressing the femininity that heretofore was repressed. As I express more femininity I am finding greater contentment. Yes, there is some loss of masculine traits, mostly where they conflict with a feminine trait, but not all of them conflict.

I'll be off to see my therapist in a couple hours. It's a little frustrating that she refuses to put labels on things so I don't have a clinical term for where I am in the TG space. All I know for sure is that I am me, 24/7/365. Take it or leave it.

Best wishes
MsVal

[Donnagirl]

... is not 2 years, contrary to the old joke!

Too true... It's much closer to 3 years I've found!!!

[Lacy PJs]

I would tend to agree with those who say that a crossdresser is someone who simply wears the clothing (and other items like jewelry, wigs, etc) of the opposite sex. While they may occasionally act "womanly," in general, they are content with being a guy albeit a guy in women's clothing. To move beyond that and take BIG steps to be recognized as a woman and actually become a woman is, to me, beyond crossdressing.

I may have used this analogy previously, but in my way of thinking, it's kind of like the difference between a hobby and a profession. The hobby is an interest, something that you may or may not be even good at, but indeed something that you are interested in. A profession requires a deeper commitment than a hobby; you almost need to be totally consumed by it... or it totally consumes you, since it is so much more to you than a mere hobby.

And, yes, from my perspective, there are probably more here who are trans than who are CD. That isn't either good or bad, simply an observation.

And for those of you who don't particularly like labels, please keep in mind that it's the way many of us try to keep track of things. Even though Shakespeare said that a rose by any other name is still a rose, the word rose generally best describes what a rose really is.

Lacy PJs

[cheryl reeves]

im transgedered,my prob. is im both male and female,im actually both.i know its weird,but thats who i am.when in male mode i feel like a woman playing at being male,when enfemme i feel like a male pretending to be a woman.confusing isnt it.im one who can identify on both sides of the fence. see im female on top and male on the bottom,if i took hormones i would be bigger the a c cup bra,this is why i did not take my clothes off in front of other males,for guys do not gave breasts. ive known a crossdresser who had surgery and later regretted it,i warned her but she went with it,now she wants reverse surgery to become male again.

[Lorileah]

Yay:cheer: it must be Monday. Time for us to argue semantics...again.:bonk:

Paula is making a point I think may be getting lost here. And it goes to the exact arguments you are making. That there IS a difference (Albeit...sometimes blurred) between the "I dress to look a part" vs "I dress to show outwardly who I am". But I had to reply to this


As for transsexuals, some have lived their whole lives believing they were born into the wrong body, while for others, there was an event that triggered this feeling.

I will vehemently disagree and will absolutely say that statement (if ever it was right in a very FEW cases) is wrong. If a TS says it was because Uncle X made them dress as children, no therapist would ever green light a transition. Transsexuals are born, not made (contrary to thousands of really bad porn stories). TSs don't wake up one morning and say "Gee I think I should be a woman". No that thought is back in the back of your mind haunting you. An event may CAUSE you to admit it, but it doesn't cause it.

And since we are arguing semantics "Believing" can be kind of wishy washy.

be·lieve
bəˈlēv/
verb
gerund or present participle: believing


1.
accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of. (this may be true...until you read the rest as to what accept means)

synonyms: be convinced by, trust, have confidence in, consider honest, consider truthful . All actions taken by you about someone else But definition 2 is NOT true

2.
hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.
We don't "believe" we are we KNOW we are. If you have any questions...you need to dig deeper to find out what you really know

I like Paula's example that some think of a TSs as a step up ()or down or in another direction) of a crossdresser. Yeah we all know the joke, but this isn't something you decide to "try". It is forever, especially as you pass landmarks. like hormones...changing you identity and finally surgery. This is a "see if it fits" thing.

[sometimes_miss]

I agree with Klaire and PatMatoole that crossdressing is merely the wearing of clothes of the opposite sex. .
But then you have ignored whatever feelings were involved which creates the desire to wear those clothes in the first place. Often all the person knows, is that they have a very strong desire to wear clothes that mean something is different about them than others of their physical sex. And that's the defining thing; why do they want to do it. There is far too much confusion about that, mostly because of the stigma our societies place on someone adopting the behavior of the opposite sex from which they were born. And, the hardest part about it, is that such a huge percentage of people insist that there can only be one, single reason why any of us feel that way.

[UNDERDRESSER]

The pros and cons of labels. You need something to get across the message you are trying to convey, but they can be so imprecise or misleading. Working in a field where many people get terminology wrong, and we end up offering them something they don't want, I am familiar with the need to be accurate in descriptions. It can be even more important in this world, but ironically, it's harder.

There is the fact that everybody is not binary, which is where most of the terminology springs from, there is the fact that there are many aspects to the matrix , physical ( even that divides further! ) emotional, mental, orientation, the list goes on! Research continues, and "official" definitions get updated at random intervals, and at different ways in different fields and countries. Not surprising that the labels get confused and misused.

I have come to understand that I am, a CD, at least as most people would describe it, but I don't internally identify that way. My line in the sand is that I'm not trying to look like a female. I am, trying to do some, for want of a better word, "feminine" sexual displaying. I like the way females can show of their physique, a fit athletic woman is a joy to behold. So too can guys, I can find a man attractive from an aesthetic point of view, without wanting him sexually. I find hosiery and skirts particularly appealing,as they can draw attention to, and enhance, the legs, hips, and butt. ( Yes, I'm a leg and butt guy, all ways have been. ) I can't tell you how good it made me feel when my GF admitted that she was envious of my legs!

[PaulaQ]

A crossdresser is a man ... A transsexual, is a woman

Actually, this is the part I wanted to emphasize - your gender identity is what really makes the difference. If you are male identified, and you do the sorts of things that go on here on this forum, you are probably "just a crossdresser." If you are female identified, you may well be someone who will eventually transition.

Nobody really commented on that part of it though.

I wanted to apologize for a couple of things:

who likes to pretend he's a woman sometimes.

So for one thing, I should've said - "presented to some degree as a woman does some of the time." That didn't flow as well though.
For another, I don't really like that I used the word "pretend" - because it suggests that CDs are incapable of living authentic lives. I reject that premise implicitly - most of you are quite capable of leading authentic lives. It's just that most of you do not, I am very sad to say. (Feel free to blame society for that - I surely do!)

Also, I didn't want to suggest a sharp dividing line between CDs and TSs - it's anything but that, nor that these were the only two outcomes possible. Oh no, that is very far from the case.

It's just that the question "OMG - ARE YOU GOING TO TRANSITION?!?!?!?" gets asked of many members here, quite a lot.


I am a cross dresser and very open about it as I don't own more that 5 male items if clothing however I do NOT pretend to be or try and look like a woman.

Addressed earlier, although a couple of questions:
1. Why'd you pick the name Klaire here? Why not Steve? Or someone non-gendered?
2. Perhaps you aren't quite the same as most of the CDs here - possibly you are something else, such as gender queer? (Not that I really care about labels.) Or perhaps what you do is simply what is required to live authentically for you. In that case, congratulations - you've done something few here will ever do!


I don't think it's at all as simple as you present it. We each have our own definitions and there are many variations among them. For example, a man could be a very casual crossdresser, just wearing panties once in a while, or a very serious crossdresser, spending most of his time dressing and playing the part of a woman.

Oh, I don't think what I presented was simple at all. For example, the "just wearing panties once in a while, (well, OK, to be honest, it was stockings)" pretty much describes my CDing for most of my life, on the rather limited times I did it, at least up until near the bitter end. Meanwhile, there are plenty of folks on this forum who spend a lot of time en femme who'll never medically, socially, or legally transition.

Actually, the hard part about all this is believing who you really are. We are encouraged to believe in things that are physically visible, such as our genitals, and discouraged from believing ideas that seem to exist only in our own minds.


Given how subconsciously we might have buried our non-physical sense of gender, given that we are often unsure whether we are CD or TS, on a daily basis, I would say we're not even a spectrum because that is only one dimension.

But, no, there is more, there is a feeling when dressed. I don't know what it's like to feel like a woman, and now I question whether I feel like a man does, after all I'm not into abuse and violence nor fighting nor arguments, i'm not into stalking women or being a sexual predator, and yet there's a joy in chopping wood and heavy manual labour.

Oh, a great many of us bury our internal sense of gender. There are a variety of reasons we do this, but the predominate one is survival. When I was a kid, if I'd talked about this stuff, they'd have "fixed me", for sure. No thanks! I figured out pretty fast that lying was a safe bet. And it was a strategy I used heavily throughout my life - never letting anyone really know me. Until that almost killed me. :(

I know what it's like to feel like a woman does - because I am one. I have no idea whether or not this is the same as the experiences of any other woman, nor will I ever know for sure. Some things I've described ring true with some women I've talked with. On the other hand, there are a lifetime of experiences and socialization that they have had, that I didn't get to have. Perhaps this makes me something totally alien, neither man or woman. However, for the most part, people don't seem to react to me that way, at least until I tell them I'm trans. And for that matter, my boyfriend feels like I'm all women, as do I, so to a great extent, those are really the only two votes that ought to count. (Although if I'm honest, being accepted as a woman by others is very important to me.)

There are angry and violent women. I don't view that as the purview of men, although certainly some men have a real talent for those things. The calmness you feel is probably your own GD being mitigated by your CDing.

Anyway, again, I'm not trying to label anybody. Some of us (me included), go for very traditionally or stereotypically feminine presentations. (I refuse to apologize for this, btw - this is just me.) Some of us are CDs, some of us are GQ, some of us are androgynous, some of us are TS, there are many, many possibilities.

I just wanted to make the point that it isn't about how you present, as who you are inside - your identity. Trying to actually get to the bottom of that though is often like looking into a hall of mirrors. It's hard to know what's real, and what isn't for many of us.

[flatlander_48]

That is why I hate labels because sometimes the label does not tell the entire story.

No, you're trying to cut it too fine. If my count is accurate, I am the 22nd person to post to this thread. That probably means that there are likely 22 unique stories here. You can't bend and morph a given label and definition to fit every situation. It doesn't work like that.

If I said "car", does that tell the whole story? No, of course not. There are many elements that go into making a complete definition; some minor (like color) but some are major (body style, for example). Definitions are intended to provide gross categories; not wafer-thin nuances...

Personally, I try to keep it very simple. 3 definitions, that's all.

We are all transgender, meaning that we have crossed a boundary to present as the other gender. There is no distinction as to whether you cross the boundary once and stay, or cross and return, cross and return or the frequency of episodes. Whether you leave home or not is also irrelevant because ALL of this has to do with State of Mind.

But, at one end of this spectrum are crossdressers; people who have chosen to cross the gender boundary frequently or infrequently. I think it is irrelevant if you do it just to wear the clothes or you actually desire to emulate and be seen as a female; albeit temporarily. The reason I say that is that society will view you as something "other" than a male (unless you pass REALLY well). Further, this is where that question comes up as to women who wear men's clothes are crossdressers or not. I don't think they are crossdressers because they are not wearing men's clothes to gain a different sensation or to transcend their current situation. They are wearing men's clothes because they are usually more comfortable, more durable, more intended for a particular purpose, etc.

At the other end of the spectrum are people who have a gross mismatch between their sex as defined at birth and the gender that they feel internally. This can be a source of great pain and frustration. These people are transsexuals whether or not they transition. The analogy would be considering yourself to be gay, but also being celibate. The state of one's mind determines how one views the world, even if you are not participating in that world as a function of that perspective.

DeeAnn

[Alice K]

Lorileah said: TSs don't wake up one morning and say "Gee I think I should be a woman". No that thought is in the back of your mind haunting you. An event may CAUSE you to admit it, but it doesn't cause it.

Very true It is always there, from the womb, but two additional points - once born TS there may be a lot of influences or observations that can enhance the nurturing of the feminine. It is at some point where "she" may be buried very deep as Paula said for survival:



Oh, a great many of us bury our internal sense of gender. There are a variety of reasons we do this, but the predominate one is survival. When I was a kid, if I'd talked about this stuff, they'd have "fixed me", for sure. No thanks! I figured out pretty fast that lying was a safe bet. And it was a strategy I used heavily throughout my life - never letting anyone really know me. Until that almost killed me.

Some may have buried her so deep, for survival's sake, that even we may have forgotten she was in here. But like all the subconscious she keeps popping up to the surface. Sometimes we see her arise and tamp her back down. Sometimes we don't even notice, but others may.

But the second point to Lorileah's comment - there will be a cause, say an illness, a change in bodily chemistry, resolution of anger issues, therapy, or just a need to live in truth that causes some to resurrect her. Hopefully, it happens early enough in life that a person gets to experience the richness of the life that was buried. In my case, I have had a flood of memories, good memories of the life that was before she was buried. Of the comfort of being her and even some later memories of the cost of the repression in anger, discomfort, feelings of awkwardness and fear.

Some wonderful and insightful comments from the folks here. I am so glad I found this site as I am uncovering what has been buried. Thanks for the insights.

Alice

[Eryn]

Unfortunately this sort of discussion tends to turn divisive. I hope that everyone can keep it constructive and recognize that we are all different.

Many of us live on the middle ground while we determine where our true path lies. We don't assert simplistically "I'm a man" or "I'm a woman." In my case, I'm me, Eryn, who has been trying to express herself as she wishes all her life.

After a few sessions of discussing my life and activities, my therapist didn't even question the fact that I'm pretty far toward the TS end of the spectrum. I spend way too much time enjoying life in the mainstream while presenting female to be considered anything else.

My conclusion is that there is no abrupt barrier between a CDer and a TS, but a vast middle ground that many of us are happily exploring.

[PaulaQ]

After a few sessions of discussing my life and activities, my therapist didn't even question the fact that I'm pretty far toward the TS end of the spectrum. I spend way too much time enjoying life in the mainstream while presenting female to be considered anything else.

My conclusion is that there is no abrupt barrier between a CDer and a TS, but a vast middle ground that many of us are happily exploring.

Honey, all that electrolysis you've had done really ought to count as medical transition, and it would if our medical establishment cared about much of anything but dicks.

I know you won't entirely socially transition, or legally transition, but you are very far along the spectrum, and much closer to me, I suspect, than to some of the others here.

That said, one question I've never seen you address, is your identity. Do you identify as male, female, or have no strong identity, maybe just on the masculine side of the spectrum? (No need to answer - you don't owe me any explanation about who you are, just something to think about.)

Again, I hope I didn't stir the pot too much - far be it from me to label anyone else, and please do know I respect all of you.

[Claire Cook]

My conclusion is that there is no abrupt barrier between a CDer and a TS, but a vast middle ground that many of us are happily exploring.

Eryn,

Thank you for this. As much as I love and appreciate Paula and her posts (and admire her for what she has gone through), I would disagree with the black and white distinction between TS and CD. There is that gray area (no, not what I am trying to hide with my wigs!) where some (many?) of us fit in. I'm probably somewhere in that spectrum with you -- my chromosomes and my body tells me I'm male, but my soul tells me I am both -- that I am me. Deep down, I probably have always known that. Now I can embrace my totality.

[Krisi]

I misspoke yesterday. Where I said there was an event that triggered this feeling (of being transsexual), I should have said a "series of events".

[Ceera]

I would have to say it is definitely a three dimensional spectrum, with many different and not necessarily mutually exclusive states identifiable in it.

On one pair of axis, you have a scale of how much they identify as the other gender and wish to become the other gender, versus how much and how often they cross dress. On another axis is sexual orientation, and how they choose to express it. And that crosses all the groups below.

You have the crossdresser that does it for fun or to entertain, and still solidly identifies with their birth gender. A male cosplayer dressing up as an anime girl character, or an actor like Robin Williams playing the role of "Mrs. Doubtfire". They may not care if they are passing or not, or they may be quite passionately trying to appear to be the gender or role they want to present. But at the end of the day, when the makeup and wig and clothes come off, they remain their original gender.

You have the crossdressers that feel some sense of identity with the opposite gender, but still primarily identify with their birth gender. They may want to 'express their inner girl' and feel feminine (or masculine, for the FtM CD's), yet still have little desire to change who they are or to alter their bodies beyond maybe shaving or using an eppilator on their bodies, piercing ears, or, at the most extreme, getting electrolysis. Unlike the first group, a larger part of this group wants to be passing and accepted as their presentation gender. I find myself here in the spectrum. I feel I have a definite feminine side to my nature, but that my male side remains dominant. I'll even acknowledge that I've felt this way for most of my life, but suppressed it. Now I love expressing my feminine aspect, presenting as well and as believably as I am able, including trying for a feminine voice, and being accepted as female. But I seriously doubt that I would ever get my breasts enhanced or do hormone therapy, let alone seek a medical transition. Does acknowledging a feminine aspect to my mind make me "transgendered" - possibly, though I don't like using that term for myself, because I feel it is too often confused with transsexual, and I don't intend to transition.

You have transsexual individuals who feel much more in connection with the other gender than their birth gender, and feel a need to change their bodies to the other gender, either partially or completely. They feel their birth gender was 'wrong', at least to some degree, and want to correct that. I would agree with many of the others here that most of this group was born with that urge or need, even though they may have suppressed it early in their lives to fit in or survive. They may well start in the group above and later come to the conclusion that it isn't just 'for fun', but is 'who they really are'.

And then you have the drag queens (and FtM drag kings) - entertainers who are both cross dressers and often people willing to change their bodies at least in part to the other gender, and yet who usually are quite open about saying "You do realize we are guys in dresses, honey?". Often they are gay males who don't even try to alter their voices, and who definitely still consider themselves male, yet they are willing to get breast implants or go even further to present well as a female on stage. As a crossdresser in the second group above, I have a very hard time sometimes explaining to people that drag queens and cross dressers are not at all the same thing. I love watching their performances, but I wouldn't want to get on stage and present myself as a parody of a woman.

There are many reasons why we present as the opposite gender to our birth. Often we don't fully understand the need ourselves.

[sarahcsc]

Hi everyone,

I hate terminologies, but at the same time, understand the necessity for it too.

We need to be able to label something in order to do something about it (ie. treating it, studying it etc)

Crossdressing appears to be a symptom of an underlying cause which stems from numerous biological and psychological aetiologies.

It is like an itch that we need to scratch, except some of us scratch more depending on the underlying cause.

We could roughly divide the underlying cause to two broad groups that is "gender identity related" and "non-gender identity related". Persons in the latter group would probably fit best with Klaire Larnia's description of herself. Persons in the former group would probably fit best with PaulaQ's description of herself.

But none of these are static. And by saying that, I mean to say that people aren't always sure which group they belong to and some traverse across the groups over the course of time. In other words, perceptions change.

The next important question we need to ask is:

Can we label a person by virtue of what they do?

We can probably do so for opposite extremes of the spectrum such that you won't question that a person is TS when he/she has undergone SRS and living full time as their preferred gender, but it becomes a lot more ambiguous for persons falling short of that.

It all boils down to one word, and that is "context".

Believe it or not, people who have gender identity disorder, do not share the same priorities in life. In other words, some may choose to explore and express themselves while others simply occupy their time with something which they deem more meaningful and appropriate. This differs across cultures and age groups and it is ever changing. It is probably a misguided attempt to define people based on what they do, or even arrogant.

A crossdresser is not a crossdresser without the context in which he/she crossdresses. The same applies to a TS too.

And although I think it is a necessary evil to label someone in order to access health services, labeling also carries the risk of stifling any meaningful discussion about the topic.

So coming back to the original statement, "the difference between a CD and a TS"

Is there a difference? probably yes. But it is too complex to nail it down to a sentence or two... And it is ultimately up to us to decide for ourselves.

In order to access health services, I'd take on the label of TS without thinking twice. But when explaining to friends and family, I simply say I'm Sarah.

And if they can't or won't accept that, then I'll just move on. :)

Love,
Sarah

[Tina_gm]

While I would definitely never question someone who is TS on what being TS really is or means, how I view TG in general, personally goes something like this-

Cis gender people, are in a range of 80-20 or higher in relation to their birth gender. I believe at some point, everyone has some sort of cross gender expression or personality traits. At 80% though, and higher, they are so predominantly connected to their birth gender, there are no issues, desires, traits etc etc that frustrate them, and they fit in with society quite easily.

As someone begins or is below the 80% range, traits, personality issues, mannerisms, desires begin to manifest. CDing if often the most common, but not necessarily a pre req for being on the TG scale. CDing is just the easiest and quickly fulfilling way for cross gender expression. Although there are other issues that often correlate along with CDing. Behavior, likes and dislikes, mannerisms...

When on the TG scale someone is 80% or higher of cross gender, then that is likely where TS happens, or is. At that point, their core identity is solidly of the opposite of their birth gender.

I am not an expert on this, but I did sleep at a holiday in last night....

[Eryn]

That said, one question I've never seen you address, is your identity. Do you identify as male, female, or have no strong identity, maybe just on the masculine side of the spectrum?

That is a tough question and one that I hadn't thought much about. I don't, internally, have much of a gender sense. Externally, I identify as the gender I'm presenting. At work I am male, outside of work I am much more fluid.

I tend to associate my masculine side with being aggressive and competitive. My feminine side is cooperative and social. Of the two I prefer the cooperative and social aspect and like to associate with people who have the same leaning who are typically female.

Those who have truly crossed the Rubicon to being TS probably spend very little time thinking about their gender identity!

[AllieSF]

Eryn,

Your comparison of your masculine side personality traits with your feminine side ones brings up an interesting question for me. I am guessing that your masculine side has probably dominated most of your life, maybe until recently, whatever recently means in the way of physical time. Therefore, it has also probably been very important to you to make you and your life style who and what they are today, meaning you can now afford to live your life in a nice way because your male side, so to speak, with its male personality traits and privileges, helped you to get your jobs, to move up through your career thus providing the necessary funds to live and enjoy life. While you female side expresses itself more outside the male "provider" situation in family and social situations, in your non-work hours. The question, therefore, is, do you think you would be in the same place economically, and maybe even for your emotional and personal awareness and growth, if your more cooperative and social side was the dominant, and maybe only, side to your personality, especially in our historic male dominant wage earning world out there? Would you be able to enjoy your female side and life as you do today? Did one better facilitate the other? I am just curious to the possible causes and effects of one side in relation to the other.

In my case, I am probably a little further behind you on our wonderful spectrum, yet still more advanced along it than a lot of CD's out there. I too have invested heavily in electrology facial hair removal, let my hair grow out, epilate obvious other male body hair areas, pierced my ears for earrings, always have clear nail polish on my finger nails and many times colored polish on my toe nails, and am totally comfortable out in the real world being me as Allie with whomever I meet and interface with, i.e. I am way out of the closet regarding the real world and third parties, except for all those who know me originally in my male mode. However, for me, differing from you, I do not see two different sides to my personality traits. I have successfully avoided until recently ever thinking about what more is in store for me from that spectrum. I seem to be the same however dressed and presenting. I tend to be impatient with the same things where, even though I tried to be more patient, e.g. in heavy traffic with all its frustrations, but I always seem to return to my natural male ways and get upset sometimes. That maybe a little stereotypical meaning that women tend to be more patient than men, but that is the concept that I am trying to make. I am still the original me in most if not all daily situations from what I can tell.

[Tina_gm]

While there is still a truth that men earn more than women, that issue is shrinking by the day. Many women now earn very good money, and more and more businesses are making sure that pay is equal among gender. (strangely enough, it is liberal hollywood that is among most at fault with unequal pay....) So 30 years ago, definitely one could say that having male privilege as far as employment goes and a means to not advance further in gender issues, today, not nearly as much.

[Jeninus]

While there is still a truth that men earn more than women, that issue is shrinking by the day. You may well be correct. But should that be widely recognized, the grievance industry would lose one of its showcase factories.:doh:

[Tina_gm]

Al Sharpton and Gloria Allred would be out of business, we can't have that....

[Tina_gm]

Those who have truly crossed the Rubicon to being TS probably spend very little time thinking about their gender identity! I don't know about less time actually thinking about it. For them it is a constant issue in their lives. CDers can put it aside and deal with it at a later time. Perhaps pondering on who or what they really are is time less spent, but time spent on their identity in general must be extremely difficult as it is with them constantly, and until they transition or at least make a full acceptance of themselves, it must be excruciating.

[PaulaQ]

That is a tough question and one that I hadn't thought much about. I don't, internally, have much of a gender sense. Externally, I identify as the gender I'm presenting. At work I am male, outside of work I am much more fluid.

I can believe that you don't have a strong sense of gender. Here's a surprising thing to you - I do. How strong? Suppose someone (edit-threatened) me, and said "OK, no more girl stuff - this is nonsense. Go put your suit back on and be a freaking man, right now, or I will (edited), right here, on the spot." I'd fight that person to the death, rather than go back to being a man. I've talked to my boyfriend about this. He's the same way. If we find ourselves in some dystopian future where being transsexual is against the law, and they ban HRT, among other things, we would both do whatever we had to do, even if it wasn't nice, nor particularly legal, to keep ourselves healthy, and we'd do whatever we could to exit the country and go someplace better, or hide. We will never go back. This is a pretty radical way of feeling, I realize that. Some friends of mine are convinced that a more androgynous society would've eased my suffering. I know for a fact that it wouldn't have done that. I didn't attempt my own life in an endeavor to be mildly more feminine in presentation, or in my life. It was a powerful need within me - almost a physical need like a hunger. Anyway, it's a really strong feeling.

So I suspect that neither you, nor AllieSF, nor any number of others here can relate to such feelings at all! In fact, I bet such feelings seem perhaps crazy to you, but I can assure you they are quite real. Despite that, I know personally several other women who are in transition, on HRT, who'd just put on the damned suit, and somehow conform until they could get to a better situation. They'd survive it, I wouldn't.


I tend to associate my masculine side with being aggressive and competitive. My feminine side is cooperative and social. Of the two I prefer the cooperative and social aspect and like to associate with people who have the same leaning who are typically female.

Hey, it might be an interesting academic exercise, or perhaps one you need to do someday, to figure out if you are more male identified or female identified. However, nothing says you can't be both, or even neither. Far be it from me to define who you are. (I know I kind of did that in this thread - I wanted to provoke a bit of a discussion, and I sure got one!)

Personally, what most people think of, when you say "transition", is sort of a recipe of:
- medical transition - HRT, maybe surgeries
- social transition - you live fulltime
- legal transition - name & gender change
At the end of this process, you are a woman. That's all well and good - but only if you really happen to be a woman inside of your mind. The thing about the above is it was really designed for someone like me, for the most part. But my story, and yours, don't sound much alike, do they? In fact, they are radically different, so it's probably just right that you aren't doing the same things I'm doing. Unfortunately, the medical community hasn't caught up to this, really, so "transition" is sort of a one size fits all. In a lot of ways, I'd argue that you have gone through a kind of transition. I mean, you presumably weren't always so open in your cross gender presentation. You have friends as Eryn now. You do things socially that perhaps in times past seem unimaginable. You've gone through hair removal - a not insignificant transition procedure, btw. Maybe that's all you ever do. That's fine, really, as long as you are happy and well adjusted, why would you need to do more than that? Well you just wouldn't.

In some ways, it might be better to define this in terms of our brain structures, if we could scan them and see it, and see which of us have feminine structure, and which have masculine brain structure. Or perhaps responding well emotionally to HRT is a reasonable acid test for who's really a woman, and who isn't. (Or vice-versa for the FtM's.) However, since the medical establishment has largely abdicated it's responsibility for our care for the past 50 years, it'd be a cold day in hell before I trusted them to tell me who I am. And anyway, I don't need them to - I already know. For that matter, it sounds like you do too - you seem just fine as you are.

[Tina_gm]

Paula, I am going throw something out in terms of circumstance and when I do this, I am not in any way attempting to be demeaning of you or anyone else. If a Cis Gender woman who was a mother of a child was to be given an ultimatum that she become a man in order for her child to not suffer unimaginably, she would do so without hesitation. She herself might suffer unimaginably by identity issues, but she would rather it be her than her child.

Now take a 30 year old who went through a similar tidal wave as you have, and discover or accept their true identity. They have a child, or children who would be completely devastated by a transition. (especially in a rural community) In an almost feminine aspect, the would be transitioner will delay if not forgo transitioning completely for their children.

When you were younger, with children perhaps it might have been different. Different because then you had lives depended on you. you had a greater cause than your own. I believe that is why we see people transitioning at either a very young age, or in midlife. Before or after such circumstances occur. ( I know there are stories of transition and family acceptance in the middle of it all) but those are far rarer than those who transition during this time and the end result being total devastation of the family.

I honestly believe that is why we see so many 40+ y/o members who are coming back into CDing after decades of absence. It is not the only reason, I believe there are many, both for CD and TS, but that is definitely among the bigger ones.

[PaulaQ]

Now take a 30 year old who went through a similar tidal wave as you have, and discover or accept their true identity. They have a child, or children who would be completely devastated by a transition. (especially in a rural community) In an almost feminine aspect, the would be transitioner will delay if not forgo transitioning completely for their children.

25 years ago, when my son was very young, I was in Dallas, and I definitely buried my gender stuff as best I could, manned up, and married my poor ex-wife. Knowing what I know now? I'd have transitioned. I'm surprised I survived.

What I hate is that I have the only medical condition (gender dysphoria) for which treatment is considered selfish. If I had bone marrow cancer, nobody would have told me "gee, you know "<boyname>", it's gonna cost a lot to treat you, even with insurance. You are going to leave your family impoverished. If you just die instead of seeking treatment, between the money you have left over, and your life insurance, your family will be in pretty good shape!" With this stuff though, it's like "quit it or die already!"


( I know there are stories of transition and family acceptance in the middle of it all) but those are far rarer than those who transition during this time and the end result being total devastation of the family.

Actually what happens most of the time is just a divorce. That's it. A lot of divorces happen, and kids survive them mostly OK. This isn't really any different than any of the other reasons people get divorced. It's not a good reason to not transition if that's what needs to happen. And in my case, it really needed to have happened. It didn't, and I got through it, so I guess that's fine. Knowing how bad this was for me though, I really am surprised I didn't commit suicide sometime during that long, long interval as a guy. I was coming apart at the seams.

Anyway, I manned up as best I could, and tried to be a dad, just like a lot of us do. I sucked as a father, although I hope that I was an OK parent. I was at least a lot better than my own father, but that is a very, very low standard. (I was present, cared, and was sober - none of which could be said about my own Dad.)

But sure, I can relate to what you are saying, and there's no doubt that a lot of us forgo dealing with this stuff until we simply can't take it anymore, in order to save the family. Had my crisis hit a decade earlier, when my kids were still minors in high school, and I'd ended my life, I wonder if they'd have thanked me for trying? Probably not. I was so, so foolish.

[kimdl93]

After 39 comments, the difference, the bright fluorescent line distinguishing (not dividing) TS from the rest of the TG spectrum is the point of knowing with certainty and clarity that one identifies as a woman and possessing the compelling need to live as a woman. If someone cannot make that clear distinction they probably are not TS.

No other point on the transgender spectrum is so clearly differentiated. (and regardless of how individuals may choose to define themselves, CDing is part of the transgender spectrum)

[PaulaQ]

the difference, the bright fluorescent line distinguishing (not dividing) TS from the rest of the TG spectrum is the point of knowing with certainty and clarity that one identifies as a woman and possessing the compelling need to live as a woman. If someone cannot make that clear distinction they probably are not TS.

Yes, that's really the dividing line, in my opinion as well. It is the need to live fulltime as the gender opposite their assigned at birth sex.

I do think it's arguable that needing hormone therapy to achieve mental / hormonal congruence is a very, very strong indicator as well. (This shouldn't be the dividing line socially, however, there are individuals who might be greatly helped by hormone therapy, but who can't take it for other, unrelated health reasons.) If cross sex hormones make you feel worse, an argument can be made that you probably aren't a transsexual. However, given the uncertainty of the science behind all of this, I wouldn't take it as gospel.

[Jessicajane]

the difference is 5 years...on average...!!

[flatlander_48]

Folks have said the same thing about bisexuals and that was also B/S...

DeeAnn

[Katey888]

the difference is 5 years...on average...!!

Yeah, right - twaddle... Otherwise we wouldn't have so many oldie members here would we...? :)

Good discussion Paula and everyone... If we thought TG was just too broad a descriptor then CD probably is as well. What am I taking away from all this..?

What makes a CD? A huge plethora of motivations, reasons, feelings, environments and emotions - all with some underlying gender quirk, IMHO, but many, many more individual elements that for me, explain why we have such different behaviours.

And what's the difference with someone who is TS? A TS is always the right mind gender in the wrong physical gender. I see them as binary as the cis-world, just in that conflicting way.

TG/CD folk, on the other hand, I now begin to see as birds of a very different feather.... Which goes some way to explaining why perhaps we struggle to see eye-to-eye with transsexual folk all the time. :thinking:

Katey x

[Dana44]

That also bodes the question of why we may do this. Funky, why do I ever want to dress as a female? I don't quite know, yet I would not like to be a full time woman. I being a half/half hormonally all of my life, I find that my life as a male was pretty darn good. I was able to be a leader in activities and have accomplished an awful lot being a male. So why? Well, I think that I'm trying to get in touch with my feminine side. I'm not very feminine. I think it is nice to try though. I have complemented my SO on the fact that she dresses as feminine as I do when we go out. I really appreciate that and it makes it fun to be two girls going out. I would classify this as a CD, it is not something strange as gender identification.

[Lorileah]

I can believe that you don't have a strong sense of gender. Really? I thoink a lot of people go a long time with out making a distinction as to their gender

So I suspect that neither you, nor AllieSF, nor any number of others here can relate to such feelings at all! so they don't have a strong feeling of gender...or they are male and don't understand what TSs feel? :confused:
In fact, I bet such feelings seem perhaps crazy to you, but I can assure you they are quite real. isn't that what Eryn said? She didn't have a sharp gender line?



Personally, what most people think of, when you say "transition", is sort of a recipe of:
- medical transition - HRT, maybe surgeries
- social transition - you live fulltime
- legal transition - name & gender change I did something wrong here I did all of them at virtually the same time (exc surgery).





I do think it's arguable that needing hormone therapy to achieve mental / hormonal congruence is a very, very strong indicator as well. I could have reached that nirvana without, but it was nice to have. When I started estrogen, I didn't notice any real behavioral changes. I joke about the drop in levels if I miss a dose or at the end of the cycle, but other than physical changes I am still pretty much as I was. Why because I was a woman in my mind, the hormones are just tools. Maybe I am the odd one here. Now about the brain scan we don't really have that technology yet to be that specific. The medical community didn't abandon us, it was just that strokes and seizures and aberrant behaviors are far more common. But consider this, IF they did find a physical reason (i.e. brain structure) that showed that "we" had brains like a genetic woman...so what? Does that mean every TS needs that to qualify? Is it something that will advance our cause? Or is it something that will be used against us...another reason to discriminate? Will it used to "fix" us...maybe surgery to correct our brains? I don't think that at this time we need to delve that deeply. You, I understand, would like that for confirmation. Me...I already know who I am. I don't need no lousy brain scan.

[Chrissi]

Thank you...I've never felt that I am either a man or a woman. But freely admit that both have distinct advantages and disadvantages. We all know what those are. As I get older and less concerned about how others view me, I find myself wanting to live and living more toward the female side.



Unfortunately this sort of discussion tends to turn divisive. I hope that everyone can keep it constructive and recognize that we are all different.

Many of us live on the middle ground while we determine where our true path lies. We don't assert simplistically "I'm a man" or "I'm a woman." In my case, I'm me, Eryn, who has been trying to express herself as she wishes all her life.

After a few sessions of discussing my life and activities, my therapist didn't even question the fact that I'm pretty far toward the TS end of the spectrum. I spend way too much time enjoying life in the mainstream while presenting female to be considered anything else.

My conclusion is that there is no abrupt barrier between a CDer and a TS, but a vast middle ground that many of us are happily exploring.

[PaulaQ]

Really? I thoink a lot of people go a long time with out making a distinction as to their gender

What makes you say that? If nothing else, social pressure to be one or the other used to be fairly intense. I can't say what that's like now, for kids in school, but when I was in school, there was a lot of pressure about this - it was conflated with sexual orientation, of course.

But hey look - I'm not cis. Maybe if your gender and assigned at birth sex line up, you don't ever think about this. I suspect though that some people do, some don't. I'd think most do, to some limited extent that it happens implicitly in their minds. I can totally believe that for some it's stronger than others. But I really have no way to know. I do note that it's rare, outside of the TG community, to see people alternate gender presentations on a regular basis. We don't really know how much of all this is learned, and how much of it is instinctual. I suspect it's some of both, with the bulk of it being learned.


I did something wrong here I did all of them at virtually the same time (exc surgery).

There's no right or wrong in general, just what's right or wrong for an individual, in my opinion. I didn't mean to write a prescription - just sort of listed some of the general things trans people do. I'm sorry if it came across as implying someone did it wrong. I don't really think "wrong" is an option unless a person is one of the rather rare cases where someone transitions, and then feels much worse dysphoria after.


When I started estrogen, I didn't notice any real behavioral changes. I joke about the drop in levels if I miss a dose or at the end of the cycle, but other than physical changes I am still pretty much as I was. Why because I was a woman in my mind, the hormones are just tools. Maybe I am the odd one here.

No, you are not the odd one here. Both outcomes are commonly reported. Yours is probably the more common one. I have no idea why such a difference exists. I don't think it's significant to the issue of "is or isn't" someone TS. I think the only really significant issue is if cross-sex hormones actually increase your dysphoria, you may not be TS. But look, there are a number of pretty complex things at play here that aren't well understood, so I wouldn't bet the farm on any of this.


The medical community didn't abandon us, it was just that strokes and seizures and aberrant behaviors are far more common. ... But consider this, IF they did find a physical reason (i.e. brain structure) that showed that "we" had brains like a genetic woman...so what? Does that mean every TS needs that to qualify?

I'm sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this first point - it isn't so much about brain scans. But the medical community at large has turned its back on the trans community for decades. There are exceptions, and I have no doubt some places are better than others, and it's improving - for example Children's Medical here in Dallas now has a treatment program for transgender youth.

I did say that even if they did discover relatively reliable ways to differentiate what was going on in our brains, it would certainly take me a long time to trust the medical establishment again. The main use of such a test would be for children who are showing signs of transsexualism, so that skeptical parents would be more likely to allow treatment.

Ultimately, though, the individual should be able to define themselves. I'd simply like to see better methods to help guide people to the best medical care for their specific issues. For example, I have some questions whether treatments developed for TS individuals are always the best choice for people who are, for example, gender queer. Keep in mind when this stuff was developed, a trans woman was expected to be:
- hyper feminine
- straight
- fairly passable to begin with
None of those are even remotely required anymore, nor should they be. But that was the starting point for a lot of this stuff - a very binary view of gender.

I don't want to deny anyone access to anything, nor be a gate keeper. I just hate to think of people trying all sorts of things in order to feel better, failing to feel better, and really having nothing to help them make any kind of an informed decision along the way, particularly if their sense of gender doesn't happen to be extremely strong in one direction or the other.

Anyway, my apologies if any of this, or any of the prior stuff in the thread came across as argumentative. That wasn't my intention at all.


And what's the difference with someone who is TS? A TS is always the right mind gender in the wrong physical gender. I see them as binary as the cis-world, just in that conflicting way.

It's really a spectrum with us, too. There are some of us with really strong gender identities. There are some of us with fairly weak gender identities. I guess the difference is for a TS our gender dysphoria is serious enough that we have to do something about it, while a CD really doesn't, other than present in a cross gender manner periodically.

[pamela7]

Maybe if your gender and assigned at birth sex line up, you don't ever think about this. I suspect though that some people do, some don't. I'd think most do, to some limited extent that it happens implicitly in their minds.

Hi Paula and Lorileah,

I reckon most people don't think about it, for many reasons:

1. most folk don't get philosophical and ask such questions
2. it is assumed by most people they are the gender of their body, and this thought is rarely/never challenged (by a non-CD/TS person)
3. most people don't even comes across a TG/TS person to even read any literature to even know that there's a person out there with a female self inside a male body - or vice versa.

Until I exploded in my own CD life I did not question, and trust me I question almost everything. Now I am cursed by the question!

As a human being we tend to believe everyone else around sees/feels/thinks about the world the same way, we rarely wonder what's going on in someone else's head, and can be hugely surprised. Here in our broad spectrum-demographic of CD life we have massive variety. In the autistic spectrum we also have a diversity hugely larger than the "normal" spectrum, and I find the same with the "dyslexic" world.

We are hugely diverse as a species, in fact we are as diverse as nature on this planet. The medical world only sees a problem if someone is not functional in the money-generating side of life - i.e. "they need an op in order to get back on the horse". While I could go on about how sick that is, I'll not deviate. The point is: unless its a problem interfering with the smooth flow of money to the top, they don't give a s**t.

99.999% of non-CD-TG-TS people do not think about their gender, IMHO.

xxx Pamela

[AngelaYVR]

I think Pamela has stated things quite well; her autism example being quite good. My son has Aspergers but is on the more functional side of things. There is a massive sliding scale for how it affects different people. I briefly tried to quantify my own gender issues but quickly gave up as I am happy as a man who can indulge my female side when I need to. I just have to look at all the people I meet in a day to see everything from alpha-male to milquetoast to see that nothing about humans is set in stone, other than that most of us are quite good at following the ruts in the road.
Interestingly for me, my son says that if a pill was developed to get rid of his autism he wouldn't take it, as it is a part of who he is and he wouldn't want to become someone else. I often tell those in the know that although I wouldn't have chosen to be a CD, I certainly wouldn't give it up either.

[PaulaQ]

99.999% of non-CD-TG-TS people do not think about their gender, IMHO.


You think not? Even when the angry Coach / Drill Instructor / (other male authority figure) yells at them:
"Man the hell up you <expletive> <derogatory term for a gay man>!"
or even the milder:
"What are you, some kind of a big girl?"
"Don't get your panties in a bunch!"

What about in a positive light, such as:
"Jones is a man's man!"

There is a fair amount of pressure on children, many times, to conform, especially if they don't. Maybe they are just a little bit of a tomboy, or a boy who likes playing with dolls. At a certain point, lots of parents will tell the kid "enough." Other kids can be cruel too. I'm sure this isn't as bad as it used to be, but I expect it still happens, and I bet when it happens to you, you think about it.

I'll admit that it's more about their conformance to normative gender expressions, rather than their actual gender identity, which is implicit. I'm sure no cis person ever questions their gender assigned at birth! I still think how cis people express their gender, though, is thought about more than you are allowing for - for example "Can a man wear a pink shirt?" It's a part of a much more complex discussion, but since they are cis, the rest of the discussion isn't usually necessary: (See the following)

The Genderbread Person (http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2015/03/the-genderbread-person-v3/)

[pamela7]

yes Paula, even when those words are used, the normal guy (assuming we can define a normal any more than we can CD/TS/TG), won't question his gender, why should he? He might think/start to believe he's effiminate, he might believe he's gay cos of early-opportunistic imprinting experiences, and for myriad of other reasons. Separating those people such as yourself and my stepdaughter who have "always know" they're in the wrong body gender, I reckon most other folks follow their physical gender first and don't think about their gender. They might feel macho or effeminate, they might feel different, but I reckon it's simply not questioned.

This is my own experience. Only now am I questioning this. I'm open to where it goes, to being a man who wears ladies clothes, to being a lesbian in a male body, to being a female spirit only just allowed through the returning anima to even realise this might be the case, to that all being a pile of fluffy nonsense and i'm a man, period. But I'm damned sure the guys down the pub never ever thought of it.

[TinaZ]

PaulaQ - I'm happy you've offered a handful of clarifying posts, because your first one came off as dismissive to me. Actually, it was a bit offensive to me. Your follow ups have helped me understand better, so thanks for taking the time to continue this important conversation.

To put the pump on the other foot, imagine if I were to say, "Transexuals are fortunate because they are always confident of their gender. Crossdressers are the ones who struggle because their gender shifts constantly." I imagine you might react negatively to that because I'm dismissing your history, your struggle and your triumphs. As a crossdresser, your initial post swept me aside as easily.

I understand you're still incredulous, but there are days I despise the maleness I see in the mirror. There are times where I embrace it. There are times when I'm dressed that I connect so intimately with the female image I've created that I weep when I'm forced to remove it. There are times when putting on make up is a total drag (pun intended).

What I'm sure about is I have a strong "female-ness" about me, and in the same way you had suppressed it for years, I do the same now, except when it's OK not to. (I'm working on it, though; trust me!)

Fortunately, you now can live one authentic life, but unfortunately, I spend too much time feeling as though I'm living two inauthentic lives.

And to be honest, I like who I am, but I definitely do NOT lead an authentic life. I admire PaulaQ more than I can say because she does live under her terms. It's an incredibly impressive thing, and I'd guess those who live that way are in the minority.

[Greenie]

I think the difference, and the only difference that really matters to me, is internally.

We can try to define each other until the cows come home and regardless, people are going to be offended or think that that definition doesnt transcend. For example, the idea of not wanting to use SO or not wanting to use GG on the forum. Each person can identify whatever their heart tells them.

CD, TS, TG, PURPLE. It doesnt really matter. and the difference between a CD and a TS, there are an infinite number of differences that could occur. Just like how no other GG/SO on the board is like me, no CD is alike, nor any TS.

I think that society forces labels and boxes. I dont think you could define the difference between CD and TS, because it would matter WHICH cder and which TS, and the difference between those two people will not carry on to define any one else.

I understand the basic point is that TS feel that they were always a woman, or that they need to have their outsides match their insides. SOme CDers feel this way as well though, the clothing is a manifestation of thier personality. Etc. For them, dressing is a way to get their outsides, to match their insides, without the need for surgery or physical transformation of any substantial kind. Most CDers transform in a way that is reversible, so that they can also live and portray as "men" when they deem appropriate.

By this regards and definition that TS are trapped in the wrong body, and CDers are not. I would say that there are many CDer on this forum who present as a woman a substancial amount of the time, or wish to be able to present as a woman 100% of the time. I always get confused if the CDers who live full time as women are TS or CD.

So greenie is going to ask a peanut gallery question; I just wonder Paula based off of your first post, but others can answer: Are we trying to define TS or CD based off of the below types of questions?

Is surgery or hormones necessary to be a TS? (By a technical definition I guess?) Is this what we are alluding to as being the difference?
What about CDers who live full time as women. Are they CDers or TS? or purple or whatever. ;)

[PaulaQ]

your first one came off as dismissive to me. Actually, it was a bit offensive to me.
...
I imagine you might react negatively to that because I'm dismissing your history, your struggle and your triumphs. As a crossdresser, your initial post swept me aside as easily.

Hey, I can appreciate how my OP sounded, and I sincerely apologize for the dismissive tone, unintentional though it was. And believe me, I take the history and experiences of the CDers here just as seriously as I do my own. Your experiences are just as valid as mine, and I know many people here are in quite a bit of personal pain because of their gender - however they choose to define it or identify it.j


I understand you're still incredulous, but there are days I despise the maleness I see in the mirror. There are times where I embrace it. There are times when I'm dressed that I connect so intimately with the female image I've created that I weep when I'm forced to remove it. There are times when putting on make up is a total drag (pun intended).

Actually I can believe you feel this way, very easily. The feelings you describe looking in the mirror are totally relatable to me. I didn't get tired of female presentation - it's who I am - but I can relate to everything else you say, Tina.


What I'm sure about is I have a strong "female-ness" about me, and in the same way you had suppressed it for years, I do the same now, except when it's OK not to. (I'm working on it, though; trust me!)

Have you considered that you might possibly be transsexual?


And to be honest, I like who I am, but I definitely do NOT lead an authentic life. I admire PaulaQ more than I can say because she does live under her terms. It's an incredibly impressive thing, and I'd guess those who live that way are in the minority.

Thanks, but I'm really no big deal. There are, unfortunately, costs to being authentic, at least in my case. I hope you are able to find a path to an authentic life for yourself, whatever that might be.


I think the difference, and the only difference that really matters to me, is internally.

I understand the basic point is that TS feel that they were always a woman, or that they need to have their outsides match their insides.

Yes, I think the key thing - and the point people missed from my OP - was that it's really a question of identity. A TS identifies as a woman, and feels the need for gender transition. A CD doesn't feel either of those things.


By this regards and definition that TS are trapped in the wrong body, and CDers are not. I would say that there are many CDer on this forum who present as a woman a substancial amount of the time, or wish to be able to present as a woman 100% of the time. I always get confused if the CDers who live full time as women are TS or CD.

I'd count them as TS - there are no-hormone, non-op TSes. My boyfriend was one. He is the most masculine person I've ever met, and he was well before he ever started T. He has lived as a man his entire life - basically since he was old enough to buy his own underwear, which he did with money from his allowance and after-school job. He started T last year - but other than dropping his already deep voice even lower, it hasn't done much else. There wasn't much else to do. Even without T, he made the Marlboro man look effeminate - no exaggeration. He knew from day one that he was a man. He never let anyone else define him as anything but a man.

I know of others, who may have gradually socially transitioned, staying longer and longer as the opposite gender until life as their birth sex simply made no sense anymore.

I know some who can't medically transition, because of health reasons.

I'd consider all such people to be TS - or at least in transition in the sense of social transition. And to me, social transition is by far the hardest. Medical transition is no walk in the park, but it should be based on the needs of the individual.

Anyway, if someone tells me they are a woman, and lives as one, or is in the process of transitioning to one, they are TS as far as I'm concerned.

[Sammy777]

The difference between a CD and a TS
Lets look past all of the labels, where one may or may not be along the "sliding TG scale" and the medical/psychological terminology and lets instead look at the differences in how the subject of clothing is approached by a CD'er vs a TS.

Now it has been said many times, by many a TS, myself included, that it is not about the clothes.
[TS] women wear women's clothes because they are the clothes women wear, plain and simple.

Some of us may dress like "slobs" jeans, t-shirts, ect. Basically the same way some GG women do on a daily basis.
Granted some GG/TS also, for whatever personal/fashion reasons like to dress a bit better then the average girl.

A CD'er wears these clothes for reasons ranging from the fetish/sexual all the way up to wanting to be seen as a women.
While some may dress casual to better fit in, seems the vast majority like to, or will only, dress to the nines or nothing at all.

The point is not so much the differences in how a TS or CD'er chooses to dress but how each describes those clothes.

Most TS's and GG's for that matter do not even remotely go into the details of an outfit the way a CD'er will.
More importantly, we generally do not go into any if all details about what undergarments we are wearing.

Browse through the 500+ posts in the What are you wearing right now (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?215334-What-are-you-wearing-right-now-now) thread and you will quickly see exactly what I mean. :heehee:

We, [TS's] generally just do not speak that way about what we happen to be wearing on any given day.

Questions? Comments? Would love to hear them. :)

[Katey888]

Comments Sammy...? :D

I'd agree with a lot of what you say there... In fact, if you look at the thread Why do you crossdress (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?226049-Why-do-you-crossdress) you also get a good indication of how much the feeling of the clothes contribute to why the behaviour persists, I think... It's a good observation - that folks' underlying motivations are subconsciously revealed in the way they choose to describe feelings or clothing, or simply the fact that so much emphasis is placed on these aspects of the behaviour.

I still think there's almost more complexity amongst CDers than TS because there is such a wide range of motivations.

Katey x

[pamela7]

and for those of us who don't yet know which way is up on the CD-TS boat/submarine/vessel/ship/thing?

i've just come out of a marathon, 9-hour client session, dressed in my old man-clothes, and straight into my pinkest of pink. Aaaahhh, that is SO much better. I don't care what it's called, i'm just enjoying being comfortable and not pretending.

[PaulaQ]

Granted some GG/TS also, for whatever personal/fashion reasons like to dress a bit better then the average girl.

Thank you. At least one person doesn't attribute the way I am to overcompensating. I get a fair amount of grief over my clothes, although really they are quite conservative. I just mostly wear dresses and skirts because I like them. I take crap over my makeup too, although again, mostly well executed I think. I don't like to dress like a frump. What in the hell is the point of that?


i've just come out of a marathon, 9-hour client session, dressed in my old man-clothes, and straight into my pinkest of pink. Aaaahhh, that is SO much better. I don't care what it's called, i'm just enjoying being comfortable and not pretending.

Maybe those are really your clothes, and the others aren't?

[Beverley Sims]

A cross dresser does her thing for recreation, a transsexual is living life out of necessity.

[Marcelle]

. . . and lets instead look at the differences in how the subject of clothing is approached by a CD'er vs a TS. Now it has been said many times, by many a TS, myself included, that it is not about the clothes. [TS] women wear women's clothes because they are the clothes women wear, plain and simple. Some of us may dress like "slobs" jeans, t-shirts, ect. Basically the same way some GG women do on a daily basis.
Granted some GG/TS also, for whatever personal/fashion reasons like to dress a bit better then the average girl . . . Comments? Would love to hear them. :)

Hi Sammy,

I agree in principle with what you are saying but I don't truly believe we can say "if you dress this way or that way" or "if you are more concerned about fashion or not" you are more TS or CD. I do not consider myself TS nor CD as I lie somewhere within the spectrum. I don't think of my clothes as defining who I am but more an necessity to express my gender. So no, I could not put on my guy clothes, no wig, no makeup and proclaim to he world I am expressing my feminine side as it would not be obvious . . . not to mention using the ladies room would more than likely get me arrested. Contrarily, I could not dress "en femme" with makeup and wig and proclaim I am manly as it would be incongruous with the presentation. So the clothes do not define me they just make it easier to express my gender. I like to dress casually when out with my GG friends, much as they do or more dressy should the occasion call for it and I have been known to wear yoga pants, top and flip flops (with minimalistic makeup) out and about while en femme.

On the flip side of the coin, I have plenty of GG friends who live and die by fashion, they think about it, discuss it and live each and every day of their life. Yes, they may not come to a forum like this and discuss details about their outfit or post pictures but they do so in real time . . . because they can. My GG friends have the latitude (societal) to put on an awesome dress with heels and other accoutrements (if they wish) and show up for a luncheon. We will compliment her, ask here where she bought the dress, and validate her choice of style (even if it is not our choice). We might think . . . "A bit over the top for a luncheon" but we would never think she is trying too hard to be a woman. Heck, I have had GG friends show me countless selfies of outfits they have bought. I am not saying all my GG friends do this but some do because their clothing defines them as the woman they wish to be. This is akin to what you see on this forum . . . discussions about outfits, pictures, advice sought . . . all meant to validate a perceived sense of what that person feels defines them as TG. WRT to lingerie, well let's say you are correct in that many do talk about it on this forum but, in fairness, I have had discussions with GGs about their choice of undergarments which would make most sailor blush.

All this to say, I don't think we can put the binary of "you talk way too much about your clothing and undies" so you must be CD as it is not as clear cut as that much like the TG spectrum is not clear cut. :)

Hugs

Isha

[Sammy777]

Some of us may dress like "slobs" jeans, t-shirts, ect. Basically the same way some GG women do on a daily basis.
Granted some GG/TS also, for whatever personal/fashion reasons like to dress a bit better then the average girl.

Thank you. At least one person doesn't attribute the way I am to overcompensating. I get a fair amount of grief over my clothes, although really they are quite conservative. I just mostly wear dresses and skirts because I like them. I take crap over my makeup too, although again, mostly well executed I think. I don't like to dress like a frump. What in the hell is the point of that?

Your Welcome :)
Just because my ideal daily outfits happen to be [Stereotypically] seen as "Hipster Soccer Mom Lesbian Casual" :D
I begrudge no woman who wears dresses or skirts and heels on a daily basis simply because "that is what she likes".
I may not show it all that often, but hiding under my flannel there really actually is a "girly side" that does wear dresses on occasion. I even found a pie chart explaining how often and why I wear them. :lol2:

243172