TWO SIDES OF THE ATLANTtiC -- TWO VIEWS ON LIFE?

[Robbin_Sinclair]

Anytime a person generalizes about any large group, the generalizer sets himself/herself up as a target, but here I am, Ms. BullsEye asking, do you think gg wives/girlfriends in Great Britain are more accepting to our dressing than American wives/girlfriends? .

Admittedly, I am leaving out Australian type places, French/German type places, etc. It is just easler for me to ask the question in that manner. Tasmanian crossdressers, please please do not be offended. Jump right in everybody.

The pool is open. Who wants to swim? :hugs:

[Sandra]

Why should they be more accepting? I'm in Great Britain and it wouldn't matter where I was I would still be the same person and have the same views, opinions etc.

[Teresa]

Robbin,
Despite the country they live in a none accepting partner is just that ! If a woman's brain doesn't understand whatever language she speaks, she still isn't going to understand !
The outcome of none acceptance may vary in different countries depending on religious beliefs or other factors !
Most of us come to the forum because CDing creates a problem in our lives, we see far more comments from North America so the assumption is it's more accepting so we also see far more good stories because of the higher membership !
It's always interesting to swap stories from members around the World because their background and outcome of their dressing is so similar, they could just live round the corner or the other side of the World and yet they still have the same problems !!

[Danielle_cder]

Depends on which part of America you are talking about, south central or north there's alot of America out there... My wife is South American, and is so so supportive.

Count one for the Americans!

-d

[pamela7]

what's yellow and dangerous?
shark-infested custard!

There will be exceptions to any rule. The external impression we are given by the media here in Europe is that the USA is rather conservative and backward in many belief systems. I've not found that to be true, probably the opposite it, from my own travels. But then I've not lived in such places (film: "Deliverance").

While London is cosmopolitan, the south-east of the uk can be very conservative, but there there's Brighton, ... pockets of eccentricity and diversity and pockets of backwoods types are allover the uk.

[Alice Torn]

The U.S. has the liberal, more tolerant west coast, the less tolerant to put it mildly, south, and Bible belt. More liberal tolerant northeast, midwest which is intolerant in smaller towns, more tolerant in big cities, but all attiudes exist everywhere. Though i have not been married, or had a SO, the women I have opened up to, soundly reject a man crossdressing. Only one seemed a bit neutral. Most said, i was born a man, and God expects me to be a man, not a woman!

[Shirley Anne]

Ive never been to America and personally know very few Americans so really have to go on what I read and see on television. From this I surmise that in the metropolises and industrialised areas of America there seems to be a big emphasis on success and the flaunting of success and crossdressing probably wouldnt sit well in that enviroment, while in the more rural mid west and southern states there seems to be quite an emphasis on religion which mostly demonises crossdressing, although going by some post people seem to be more accepted by there church than anywhere else.

In Britain while succes is still valued its not flaunted quite the same, and over the last half century at least there has been a huge decline in native religions and the church no longer holds the power it once did. Whether that makes a difference Im not sure but its the way I see it.

[Isabella Ross]

As a Canadian, I'm wondering...does that generalization extend to NORTH Americans? Seriously, I think you're correct. Surprisingly, studies have shown that Americans, compared to Canadians and Europeans, are considerably more religious, particularly in a fundamentalist way. And I think that this does preclude many GGs from being more accepting. Obviously, just a theory that I can't substantiate...

[Katey888]

If you've left out Tasmania can we therefore leave out the Channel Isles? (They're a bit odd down there on account of being so close to you-know-who...)

Oh - and the Isle of Wight too... also a bit strange.... maybe it's folk that live on islands... :thinking:

Hang on! Aren't we..? :facepalm: Never mind...

If we're allowed to grossly generalize in this thread (All Generalization Safeguards 'OFF' - Rant Acceptance set to 'HIGH' - Irony Highlighting set to 'MAX' for our American cousins.. :tongueout ) then from what I've read here...

No. I doubt there's much difference statistically although culturally there probably are differing reasons for acceptance.

I'd suggest UK women in general are more tolerant of what might be seen as eccentricity in their other-halves
And US women in general are probably more aware and accepting of alternate lifestyles than the UK

And quite honestly, anyone's opinion here in general is as good or bad as anyone else's on this subject...

Except for Tasmanian members, obviously... :)

Katey x

[Shirley Anne]

Isabella, I dont actually know anything about the more northern states, I only personally know one american whos from Louisiana and says he,s never going back. On the other hand Ive known a few canadians and found them perfectly reasonable people, though the one I knew best went back to Canada he said couldnt stand the winters in Scotland.

Alice, I came across someone who had an insurance claim refused as an act of god, his reply to the insurance company was he would see them in court where they would be expected to prove the exsistance of god and the fact he had it in for him on that particular day.

[Leslie Langford]

My sense is that there is more of a tradition of drag - and by extension - more of an acceptance of crossdressing in the U.K. as opposed to other parts of Europe or other areas of the English-speaking world.

One need only look back at Elizabethan times, where it was common - nay, practically mandated - that female roles be played by men and/or young boys as witnessed by the way Shakespeare's plays were originally performed. Then you have the music hall/ pantomime tradition where drag was prominently featured, and in more recent times, the comedic drag antics of Benny Hill, the Python gang ("I'm a lumberjack and I'm O.K....), and the Little Britain series. Eddie Izzard is a Brit and an unabashed, open crossdresser, and Dame Edna (Barrie Humphries), albeit technically an Australian, might justifiably be considered something of a cultural export to the land of Down Under, just like the Bee Gees.

Many prominent Brits were also educated in sex-segregated "public schools" (which is an oxymoron to us North Americans, as these are actually often exclusive "private" schools), and no doubt the absence of females there helped trigger any latent tendencies towards homosexuality or crossdressing that some of these lads might have haboured during their formative years.

And if anyone needs any further proof of how well crossdressing is accepted in the U.K., one has to look no further than award-winning ceramic and textile artist Grayson Perry who not only openly wears women's clothing, he frequently hob-nobs with members of British high society including the the Royals, and was recently awarded a CBE for his work by Prince Charles while wearing a very elegant mother-of-the-bride outfit.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2602269/Ive-wanting-try-mothers-clothes-What-Prince-Charles-told-cross-dressing-artist-Grayson-Perry.html

This may be a a bit of a stretch, but the fact that the Scots who - albeit somewhat reluctantly in some cases ;) - are still part of the U.K. traditionally wore kilts and still do so for special occasions. This probably helps normalize the sight of a man dressed in a "skirt" there, so to speak.

Personally, what I don't "get" is what appears to be the Brits' inordinate fascination with stockings and "suspenders" ("garter belts" to us North Americans), which often borders on the fetishistic. I would suspect that there is also a connection there to the aforementioned "public school" education and the lack normal interaction with females during their formative years for many young men growing up in the U.K.

And to Isabella's point - I think that we Canadians occupy a kind of unique "cat-bird's seat" here, inundated as we are on a daily basis by American culture on the one hand, while still hanging on to many of the traditions brought over by the British component of our original European founding nations. As a result, we have been able to meld the two into a special kind of English-speaking hybrid culture that helped spawn the likes of SCTV and the crossdressing "Kids in the Hall". And does any Canuck here still remember the "Codco" comedy series which ran on the CBC about 30 years ago, and which often featured spectacular drag performances by Tommy Sexton and Greg Malone?

[Rachelakld]

British were brought up on Benny Hill, The Goodies, Morecambe & Wise, 2 Ronnies etc back in the day.
Aussies, New Zealander, lots of South Africa loved British TV and American comedy just didn't work on our culture

America had Mork & Mindy and Man About the House

So out TV influenced the Brits and Americans differently

[Gillian Gigs]

As a Canadian, I see great differences between one end of my country to the other. Hence, it is impossible to say we are the same, even within specific areas. I live in small town Alberta and this is the red neck center of the country from my point of view, but I know of at least one other CD'er in town and one TS who has transitioned. The one thing I see alot of is Cowboys, and lots of them, not the brokeback mountain type either! People are getting more accepting, mainly if you don't push your way of life on them. If you don't push yourself into their face, most just keep going on with there way of life.

[Rachel Morley]

Depends on which part of America you are talking about, south central or north there's alot of America out there.

That's what I was going to say :) ... it depends .... that said, my wife is a born and bred Northern Californian but she describes herself as an "Anglophile" and loves UK stuff .. what does she think about my dressing? .. very supportive!

[ReineD]

That's what I was going to say :) ... it depends .... that said, my wife is a born and bred Northern Californian but she describes herself as an "Anglophile" and loves UK stuff .. what does she think about my dressing? .. very supportive!

I do think that the laws of a land play a part in general awareness, if not acceptance over all. For example, I think if a country uniformly legalizes same-sex marriage and they have comprehensive allowances for transition in their health-care system, people who are gay and transsexuals will be more out and visible than in countries where gay and transsexual statuses are not recognized legally.

That said, I still see a bigger difference between rural and urban areas, socio-economic levels, various ethnic groups and general political and/or religious affiliations than differences between western countries. There will always be pockets of people who are anti, indifferent, or pro anywhere, especially since the recognition that we are not all hetero-cis-normative has only just recently come to the forefront in western societies.

[Beverley Sims]

Robbin,
I think it is much the same, what about the third side of the Atlantic?

Where you are.

[Robbin_Sinclair]

Wonderful replies.

I, too, am not happy when people from the States think of themselves as the only Americans. Canada, sweet people, of course your are included. Argentinia? Yes, you are in America and thank you for being here. You give our continents life, pizazz...how do you say, vivaciousness! Your wife must be terriffic. Probably a good dancer, too.

I'm surprised how many people put this on religious grounds. Except for my Twelve Step friends, I really know few people who take religion seriously. I'm a Buddhist but that is not a religion, the way I preceive it. I did not factor religion in.

Having only done a few vactions in Great Britain (and loving every minute, especially in Scotland) knowing about as much of the Great Britain women as Shirley Anne knows of US women, I expected that your side of the Atlantic would chime in, "yes! Our GGs are very tolerant." Reading the comments, GB seems like the US. Rural intolerant; Urban tolerant.

My wife is very liberal but life with her would be difficult if we would have to share our relationship with Robbin. I have to stay closet. I do not subscribe to the prevailing theory on this site about full disclosure. I don't feel guilty though. Fear and guilt are awful things. Nor do I dress outragiously or have to have everything shaved. I keep it simple, kilts, pumps, leggings, a fem top and eplitate a little here and there.

Thanks to all, especially your thoughtful reply, Leslie Langford. This was so much fun.

:hugs: robbin

[celeste26]

I would like to see Jeremy Clarkson in drag and not in some "auto" it might just calm him down a little.

[Robbin_Sinclair]

Robbin,
I think it is much the same, what about the third side of the Atlantic?

Where you are.

PM me if you really have to know. I'll give you all the details and a special invite with directions.

Let it be said, the northern Caribbean.:hugs: r

[pamela7]

Personally, what I don't "get" is what appears to be the Brits' inordinate fascination with stockings and "suspenders" ("garter belts" to us North Americans), which often borders on the fetishistic. I would suspect that there is also a connection there to the aforementioned "public school" education and the lack normal interaction with females during their formative years for many young men growing up in the U.K.


Ok Leslie, as no-one else has responded to this. There's a MASSIVE difference between tights and stockings+suspenders (S&S), just starting with "ease of access for intercourse/foreplay". I'm surprised this is limited to the UK, certainly the Moulin Rouge and Berlin lounges would suggest France and Germany are into suspenders, not also forgetting Amsterdam red-light districts. Personally, I feel many times more eroticised if my SO is wearing S&S (as opposed to tights=turnOFF), and likewise for myself. Both of us in S&S together, aaahh, awesomeness does not describe it. There's no shortage of US porn sites with ladies in S&S, so really I'm sure its universal to the occident.

[Robbin_Sinclair]

I would like to see Jeremy Clarkson in drag and not in some "auto" it might just calm him down a little.

I had to google who Jeremy Clarkson was. Seems like a bore. We have so many similar bores in the US. Most end up on Fox News. If they become "disgraced" so much the better.

If we did help Jeremy do a makeover as a woman, what should we call here? Perhaps a name with an African heritage in honor of her racial slurs. I would focus her dress on native American dress. Cute little tops, short leather skirts and moccasins.

:hugs: r

[Suzann3]

I have to agree with Robbin. There is no need for full disclosure, sometimes remaining 'in the closet' is best for all concerned. For years in my ex marriage I hinted indirectly to my ex about my desire to be Suzanne. And I knew each time how she would respond. I decided to open up the closet and I told my ex about Suzanne. Up to that point we had both lead a very happy full filled marriage. Others envied us. I had lived in fear she would discover Suzanne one day and would be more upset I hadn't told. Wrong. Had I kept Suzanne in that closet, my marriage would still blossoming and no one would have been any the wiser, certainly no one would have been hurt.

Staying on thread. I think the majority of women believe men should be men, rough and troublesome, they seem to be attracted to that type. Certainly is the case in the UK. And for their partner to want to act feminine would go against the grain for them, even though their man is the man they fell in love with. There are some very genuine women out there who will accept our ways, and some of us are lucky enough to have one of those. I'd love one. Once a woman's man becomes his other self, I believe some women feel threatened by it and rather than try to accept it, they reject him. Could be they feel we may prefer our other self more than we prefer them. Whether or not women in a particular Continent are more or less tolerant I would know. Would interesting to hear from different continents.

Eastern Europeans always seem very strict in the family structures and roles within them. I know there are many crossdressers in Eastern Europe, how do their partners react?

When I think of the Scandanavian countries and their liberal attitude to relationships, are they more tolerant?.

As for the Americas, I feel that The South American countries are probably more tolerant than in the USA. The USA is such a multi-cultural country that it is probably more tolerable within certain areas. The image often portrayed of US citizens in movies would lead us to believe that a man dressed as a woman would go against the masculinity and machismo of the male population.

I shall read this thread with interest.
Suzanne x

[Katey888]

I would like to see Jeremy Clarkson in drag and not in some "auto" it might just calm him down a little.

Personally I'd prefer to see him in handcuffs ready to be deported somewhere like South Georgia (that's the island in the South Atlantic, rather than just somewhere south of Atlanta or Tbilisi.. :))

Now - despite everyone enjoying their stereotypes I do feel this is one that needs a slight redirection... :)


Many prominent Brits were also educated in sex-segregated "public schools" (which is an oxymoron to us North Americans, as these are actually often exclusive "private" schools), and no doubt the absence of females there helped trigger any latent tendencies towards homosexuality or crossdressing that some of these lads might have haboured during their formative years. ...

...I would suspect that there is also a connection there to the aforementioned "public school" education and the lack normal interaction with females during their formative years for many young men growing up in the U.K.


I do see how it would be easy to think of everyone here still drinking sack, fagging for prefects and playing rugger in one's underwear on a frosty November morn, but no... nor do we all talk like Hugh Grant nor have his foppish hairstyle.. (I know - sad that we don't...) but I guess we're stuck with that stereotype along with Dick Van Dyke's 'real' Cockney accent... :facepalm: In fact only around 1% of education takes place in public schools here and most now are co-ed and while it is true that some prominent Brits did go through that system, many more didn't... And so 99% of us lads in the UK had perfectly normal relations with lassies during our formative years, thank you very much. :) [BTW - they are effectively public in that anyone can be educated there provided you can pay the fees... :thinking: and that they accept you... and it might help if your parents went there as well... and possibly earlier ancestors for the past couple of hundred years or so...]

And as for our fascination with S&S...? That's just a throwback to our nautical heritage... we're never happier than when we have a few halyards to haul on or some fancy tackle to keep rigging taught... all those clips and buckles and adjustable bits... :D

Katey x

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Robbin, That is something that knows no boundaries.:daydreaming:

[Sarah Louise]

Many prominent Brits were also educated in sex-segregated "public schools" (which is an oxymoron to us North Americans, as these are actually often exclusive "private" schools), and no doubt the absence of females there helped trigger any latent tendencies towards homosexuality or crossdressing that some of these lads might have haboured during their formative years.


Personally, what I don't "get" is what appears to be the Brits' inordinate fascination with stockings and "suspenders" ("garter belts" to us North Americans), which often borders on the fetishistic. I would suspect that there is also a connection there to the aforementioned "public school" education and the lack normal interaction with females during their formative years for many young men growing up in the U.K.


Hmm, I love stockings and suspenders whether they are on me or my wife! And I went to an all boys private school, but I never thought that this contributed to my dressing as it started a few years before this.

I also think the view that there's a tendency towards homosexuality at public schools is a myth. Just like dressing, it's something you feel the need to do or not. If anything it's more likely to get buried deep in someone's sub-conscious at a public school as there's few secrets and kids are terrified of being seen as different. Certainly at my school, someone would have been hounded if they came out as gay.

[Robbin_Sinclair]

"...a fascination with leggings and stockings ... borders on fetishistic." This seems ironic seeing it posted on a CD website.

I'm a product of that school system. I have to discipline my mind to ignore the kids that I see walking around with short tartan skirts and leggings as a school uniform.

With an adult wearing something like that, however, I allow myself the freedom to act my age. So much the better if there is something interesting under that skirt.

Do I have thoughts that border on fetishistic because of a perverse school system? Yeah, probably.

:hugs: r

[Lorileah]

Staying on thread. I think the majority of women believe men should be men, rough and troublesome, they seem to be attracted to that type.
rather a sexist view. Would you also say that men prefer "Feminine" women who cook and clean and drink tea? If what you said was true I have to wonder why so many people get married, the ideal mate is not what they got Maybe it's like eating at a buffet, you fill your plate and then see what someone else got and you want to go back?

If wanting a rough and tumble man was the norm, I would not have been married twice or had a girlfriend ... but maybe that's just settling. I will disagree that women "want" men who are "Men". Sure would shoot down Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt and ...most actors. I will stick with the women wanting a man who cares for them and who doesn't hold secrets



I do see how it would be easy to think of everyone here still drinking sack, fagging for prefects and playing rugger in one's underwear on a frosty November morn, First Georgia is in the southern part of the US silly ;P but the rest...you all talk funny don'tcha? It does ruin my plans to go to Oxford though, I don't know how to play rugger :)

[Teresa]

Leslie,
I think there's a great misconception about English public schools, I consider myself one of the lucky ones who won a scholarship place !
If you think it was all jolly hockey sticks think again ! We had all all day Saturday school , three two hour homework assignments each night and divinity homework on Sunday ! If you failed to hand in the prescribed homework on time you then had to complete it in detention on Saturday night ! As for time to to chase girls or get up to any other sexual exploits there wasn't time ! There were no beatings formally but the level of punishment was designed to keep us on the right path !
So who spent most of his time in detention for some pretty mischievous pranks, yours truly, and who didn't hand his homework in on time because of the distraction of his sister's dresses ?

As for the fascination with stockings , I think it must date back to the old music hall and the bawdy seaside postcards that were popular for years !
I find them more practical anyway and they are sexier , but there's no more connection with public schools than any other !
I guess we just like rigging as Katey says !

[Gillian Gigs]

One of the big differences between the two sides of the Atlantic has to do with humor. The Brits are cheeky and have lots of sexual hints, while the Americans have slap stick and laugh at obnoxious behavior. To me the Brits have a quirky side and are more prone to "wink" at others quirks rather than expect comformity. I love Brit humor, whether it was the Carry on gang, Monty Python, or Are you being served and the talk of someones pussy! Too many Brit transplant comedies failed in the America due to the cutting off of the humor as being too sexual for prime time TV. Many people see Brits as having a Victorian sexual restraint, but I think inside their hearts is a burning flame that comes out in the comedy. Hence there may be a greater acceptance of the sexual quirks within the population, like CDing. Possibily Americans may be more up tight about sex than they may realise.

[sometimes_miss]

I'd suggest UK women in general are more tolerant of what might be seen as eccentricity in their other-halves
And US women in general are probably more aware and accepting of alternate lifestyles than the UK
And quite honestly, anyone's opinion here in general is as good or bad as anyone else's on this subject...

^Katey has it about as close as you're going to get. Women in both areas 'in general' are more accepting of crossdressers,
AS LONG AS THOSE CROSSDRESSERS AREN'T HER HUSBAND.
As far as Americans being more religious, more and more churches are shutting down every day. The big one in the north east, Catholicism, in the past 20 years or so has seen huge numbers of people who don't show up to services or financially support the faith anymore; many have so few followers that they can't even afford the upkeep on their real estate, even when it's tax free. Want to buy a 'used' church? There are plenty to go around.

[Lynn Marie]

Although firmly planted on the "New World" side of the pond, I've always felt the English were more accepting of quirky behavior than we semi-uptight Americans! But, what do I know? I was raised on Westerns and Monty Python looked pretty darned weird to me! Oh I liked it, it was just pretty weird. Sort of like me.

[Helen_Highwater]

Ok Leslie, as no-one else has responded to this. There's a MASSIVE difference between tights and stockings+suspenders (S&S), just starting with "ease of access for intercourse/foreplay". I'm surprised this is limited to the UK, certainly the Moulin Rouge and Berlin lounges would suggest France and Germany are into suspenders, not also forgetting Amsterdam red-light districts. Personally, I feel many times more eroticised if my SO is wearing S&S (as opposed to tights=turnOFF), and likewise for myself. Both of us in S&S together, aaahh, awesomeness does not describe it. There's no shortage of US porn sites with ladies in S&S, so really I'm sure its universal to the occident.

OK this isn't very PC but when I was somewhat younger and just starting out in the work place the older guys would refer to the top of stockings as the "Giggle band"; get past that and you were laughing!

Getting back on subject I think there's a real danger of the grass always being greener on the other side of, in this case, the pond.

On the UK side I can't say that we have an equivalent of the bible belt and while we have rural areas, being such a small country those are relatively small in population terms with larger conurbations being within easy driving distance <1hr. The Police are very aware of what are now called Hate Crimes so attacks on the grounds of race or sexuality are taken seriously carrying possible prison sentences. Many TV soaps have carried serious story lines of same sex relationships and so I think in general it's become or is becoming a more accepting society.

However, that doesn't necessarily translate into partners being accepting of a CD'ing husband. Generation is likely to play a big part with the young showing greater tolerance. Also class and education will play their parts.

Having said that i can't see a major UK city electing an openly crossdressing mayor which would tend to indicate that the big cities of the US display greater tolerance than would be found over here.

[Sarah Louise]

Having said that i can't see a major UK city electing an openly crossdressing mayor which would tend to indicate that the big cities of the US display greater tolerance than would be found over here.

This could soon be tested. Eddie Izzard plans to run for London Mayor in 2020: http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2013/dec/13/eddie-izzard-going-into-politics

[Eryn]

Mimi and I have discussed this and one thing touched upon by other members is that, in the US, many of us are descendants of pioneers, people who considered independence and simplicity to be virtues. We see this in the concepts of the cowboy, both real and fictional. Men who violated this norm were considered "dandies" and "city slickers" who were beneath contempt. Both men and women were raised to consider this image of a "westerner" to be an ideal. You either were the Marlboro Man or you wanted to have him in your bed.

People from the other side of the Atlantic didn't have a recent pioneer era, so their society might be more tolerant of men who are a bit fancier than the norm.

That said, there seems to be so much individual varation among our SOs that any national generalizations are of interest only for statisticians. What really counts to me is that Mimi is wonderfully supportive, not that she fits into any nationalistic mold.

[Leslie Langford]

Hmmm...not all that far-fetched, Helen.

In 2000, Enza "Supermodel" Anderson ran for Mayor of Toronto, and came in at 3rd place with a respectable 14,000 votes.

http://www.mosuniverse.com/dragalicious/enza-anderson

Then again, there's Stu Rasmussen who actually did serve as Mayor of Silverton, Oregon in the U.S. for six years until stepping down earlier this year due to the toll that political office and the constant infighting among city council members finally took on him...

http://www.kgw.com/story/news/local/2015/01/07/first-transgender-mayor-in-us-leaves-silverton-office/21415041/

It should be noted that the prolific use of the pronouns "he", "him" etc. in this article are not due to mean-spiritedness or political incorrectness. In fact, that designation is actually in accordance with Stu's own wishes, as he uses male pronouns and has kept his original name. According to him, he identifies as a transgender person but not fully as a woman. This candor and in-your-face attitude makes his election as Mayor of a small (and by all accounts - "un-hip") typical middle-America community all that more remarkable.

[LilSissyStevie]

My wife is very tolerant and she's from the deep South....of England.