Why so many more MTF, than FTM dressers, and TS?

[Alice Torn]

It seems like so many more MTF dressers, and TG, and TS, than FTM. Any ideas why? Is it the desire to be non macho, and to be pretty, and beautiful, or something deeper? I think part of it is men feeling like they are obsolete, and that men are not needed anymore. Female beauty is valued more, than masculinity. My dad wanted all daughters, but got three sons, and his first child, a handicapped daughter. He was frustrated,resented his sons, but would be aghast if he knew i dressed up beautifully.

[vicky_cd99_2]

As my daughter say "we all start out as females in the womb". It could be that more of us retain some of that than the girls picking up testosterone. Just a thought.

[Taragirl427]

Thats a pretty big question. I'd say that since no one is really certain why people CD in the first place, the likelihood of a definitive answer is slight. My personal $.02 is that males are a lot more restricted in their roles and behavior by society than females are. Its a lot more acceptable for a woman to have masculine tendencies than a man to have feminine ones. So perhaps guys with feminine tendencies feel the need to suppress and hide these things and it manifests as CDing. IIRC true TS are rare. Probably both FtM and MtF. I guess what I'm trying to say is there is a spectrum of behavior for both genders but for males it seems more pressure is placed on them to conform and be "manly". I think those restrictions are loosening though, these days. Hope that made sense!

[Alice Torn]

Vicky, that could be.

Tara, I tend to agree. Males are restricted, in roles, and clothing, kind of like "straight jacketed", and it is very confining, and stifling. Dressing is kind of an escape from that.

[sometimes_miss]

Why so many more MTF, than FTM dressers, and TS?
Well for one thing, right now there are more restrictions on men's wear than woman's; there are plenty of crossdressing women, but you simply don't notice them. A woman can wear men's clothing with no one ever noticing at all. The opposite is not true. AFA mtf TS, that again is a reflection on what is currently 'allowed' by our society as well. A woman can be a lumberjack, plumber, soldier, cop, etc., in fact, society has made many exceptions in what is required for lots of professions where physical strength used to prevent women from entering those jobs. However, you don't see much of the reverse, I suppose mostly because of the stigma connected. Men are still subject to ridicule should we want to be a nurse, hairdresser, secretary, flight attendant, server with any all female staff, etc.. While it's still pretty common for men to poke fun at other guys in those professions, you don't hear any jokes about women in men's professions. It's because a man wanting to take a traditionally female place in society is still looked at as a step down in status, whereas a woman doing the opposite is considered taking a step up.

no one is really certain why people CD in the first place, the likelihood of a definitive answer is slight.
Actually, that's not quite right. While we can't determine the reasons why ALL of us crossdress, for some, it's pretty obvious. Others, not so much. The big stumbling block is trying to define everyone with one stroke of the brush. This is primarily because what we do is considered by many to be a disease, and modern medicine always tries to narrow down the disease cause into one, single thing. However, what it is, is behavior. And you can't determine a behavior as the result of one, single cause. In fact, I'm still surprised that anyone here still posts questions about this. Maybe the search function still doesn't work?

[Sara Jessica]

Right, all this societal stuff figured into what was in my brain at the age of 4 or 5 :eek:

[Tammy12]

One aspect is that Mothers take more of an early role in child raising than the Father. This gives the Mother more opportunity for influence, if she chooses.

[Sandra]

There is FtMs around but most people assume that they are butch lesbians and are ignorant to the fact that FtMs even exist.

We used to have quite a lot of FtMs here but they were driven away by some of the MtFs, in the fact that they were called girls and not men and were always being told that they had it easier than an MtF, I will state for the record that most of this was said by cders and not TSs.

[flatlander_48]

Something I read recently stated that traditionally F2M's had been under reported, but that current trends had been working in the direction of closing the gap. Anyway, that deals with the statistical aspect, but not the underlying question.

Of the 2 groups that I've become involved with recently, one is about 50/50 crossdressers to transexuals and the other is maybe 75% transexuals and 25% crossdressers. Neither are what I would have expected.

DeeAnn

[Dianne S]

There are far more MtF cross-dressers because wearing men's clothes usually does nothing for women. Wearing women's clothes is exciting or relaxing for (some) men for a whole variety of reasons that have been endlessly hashed on this forum.

I don't agree about the TS ratio, though. I believe there are about as many FtM as MtF transsexuals. It's just that FtMs usually have a pretty easy time to go stealth, so they tend to be less visible as trans people than MtFs.

DeeAnn's comment is interesting. I joined a local support/social group in 1993, and it was about 90% crossdressers / 10% transsexuals. For a variety of reasons, I dropped out of the trans community around 1995 and only rejoined in late 2013. That same local support/social group now consists of about 65% transsexuals / 35% crossdressers, a huge shift from before. (And I've shifted from believing I was a CD in the 1990s to knowing I'm TS in 2014.)

[Sandra]

It's just that FtMs usually have a pretty easy time to go stealth, so they tend to be less visible as trans people than MtFs.



See what I mean.... comments like this is what drove the FtMS away from here.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn's comment is interesting. I joined a local support/social group in 1993, and it was about 90% crossdressers / 10% transsexuals. For a variety of reasons, I dropped out of the trans community around 1995 and only rejoined in late 2013. That same local support/social group now consists of about 65% transsexuals / 35% crossdressers, a huge shift from before. (And I've shifted from believing I was a CD in the 1990s to knowing I'm TS in 2014.)

As my involvement can be measured in months, I don't know the history of either group and how the demographics have changed over time. However, it is an interesting thought and maybe I can find out more.


See what I mean.... comments like this is what drove the FtMS away from here.

Is that really negative commentary or more related to societal perceptions and realities?

DeeAnn

[cheryl reeves]

i would like to know how ftm's have it easier the mtf's?

[Zylia]

We used to have quite a lot of FtMs here but they were driven away by some of the MtFs, in the fact that they were called girls and not men and were always being told that they had it easier than an MtF, I will state for the record that most of this was said by cders and not TSs.
Nice job blaming the staff's failure to create a safe and friendly environment for FTM members on the largest group of people on this forum. Why is this even here? If we cannot openly criticise the staff, maybe you shouldn't criticise the community as a whole either.

As for 'real' numbers, in the Netherlands, the one institute that handles most gender issues in the country reports a 3 to 1 ratio of MTFs to FTMs. One could think that these figures are slanted because more FTMs get by without medical help, but there's no scientific basis for that. A real answer to the question cannot be found without delving into the true cause of gender incongruence, or how people end up with a gender dysphoria diagnosis.

A cross-dresser is almost always MTF. I've yet to meet a genuine FTM cross-dresser with the same emotional (or erotic) needs as the regular MTF crowd. For many if not most cross-dressing men, their cross-dressing is tied to sexual excitement. Men and women have different sexual needs. You might as well ask why there's way more pornographic material aimed at men. For what it's worth, 'autoandrophilia' (i.e. a woman who is aroused by the thought of herself as a man) is deemed non-existent, at least as part of an 'official' DSM diagnosis, by the writers of the latest DSM revision including Blanchard.

[PretzelGirl]

In my area, I can't say that one number is more than the other. I have lots of trans* friends and there are a large number of FTM, MTF, and others across the spectrum (bi-gender, gender queer, gender fluid, etc). I will admit that when I identified as a crossdresser, I saw a lot less of everyone that was outside of the MTF identification. Basically a product of my own thoughts and actions and not the true reality.

[kimdl93]

I don't think our membership is necessarily reflective the relative numbers of FTM and MTF in society. This is a somewhat selective sample. Why? I would guess that very few FTM see themselves primarily as CDrs, but rather see themselves as TG. With that perspective, one can understand that they may tend to seek out forums that are more reflective of their identity, rather than a group that, at least by the name, seems more about clothes preference than gender preference.

[Sandra]

Nice job blaming the staff's failure to create a safe and friendly environment for FTM members on the largest group of people on this forum. Why is this even here? If we cannot openly criticise the staff, maybe you shouldn't criticise the community as a whole either.



We didn't fail to create a safe and friendly environment for the FtMs, but some of the cders just couldn't help but having ago at them, the staff enforced rules when things got out of hand but in the end the FtMs just had enough. I am not criticising the community I am stating a fact, if fact if you read my post again that you quoted I said SOME not the whole community please get your facts right when replying. You just need to think all this happened before you joined and you didn't see what went off. As for you comment about criticising staff, staff accept constructive criticism but it will not be aired on the main forum.


Is that really negative commentary or more related to societal perceptions and realities?

Well seeing as the FtMs left they must have taken it as negative commentary. One thing that people need to think about is that most of the FtMs identified as TS and not cders and to be told that they are women and called she/her was a kick in the teeth to them.

[Nadine Spirit]

Throughout history there are examples of cross gender expression from both males and females. So I don't think we can lay "blame" with anything in recent history as to creating gender variant behaviors. Thus things like "males are now obsolete," just don't make sense to me.

As to there not being many FTMs on this site, I think what Sandra is saying would appear to make sense. There is often much discussion here surrounding how great it is to be a woman, well I have to assume that FTMs don't really agree with much of those thoughts.

[audreyinalbany]

maybe its because women are attractive and men are not…. (well, to me anyway)

[Alice Torn]

Nadine Spirit, I have seen an unmistakable trend, for decade. The male energy under attack, down in the ashes, as poet Robert Bly called it, in his book, "Iron John", in the ealy 1990's. One would be blind to not see it. Not all bad, by the way, but real. The female energy has been flying higher and higher, in western nations. Not some other nations, though, where CDing with gender would be dangerous. The male and female genders, CAN both be very good, though, but in this cruel world, sadly, a war. Masculinity has been devalued, though. I know, as i am a man.

[Sarah-RT]

As my daughter say "we all start out as females in the womb". It could be that more of us retain some of that than the girls picking up testosterone. Just a thought.

I like to think this is a possibility of why we are the way we are, since supposedly we start off as female before becoming male, i figure maybe somethings get muddle along the way.

[flatlander_48]

Well seeing as the FtMs left they must have taken it as negative commentary.

If that was the case, they were walking around with blinders on as the original statement was clearly true. As viewed by society in general, women in a flannel shirt and jeans will attract A LOT LESS attention than a man in a dress. Women in flannel shirts and jeans is a frequent occurrence in the general population, regardless of sexuality. Patently not true for men dressed in women's clothes.


As to there not being many FTMs on this site, I think what Sandra is saying would appear to make sense. There is often much discussion here surrounding how great it is to be a woman, well I have to assume that FTMs don't really agree with much of those thoughts.

It depends, as a function of perspective. I would doubt that folks who consider themselves as F2M are thinking about women in society. I suspect that they are looking at things from their own perspective and where their own sensibilities sit in terms of the gender role that should be theirs. I don't think people are sitting around thinking that they do not want to continue as women based on how they are treated in society at large.


Masculinity has been devalued, though. I know, as i am a man.

Largely, we brought this on ourselves. Why did we assume that women had to be kept barefoot and pregnant? Why did we assume that women should not have the vote? Why did we assume that women couldn't run major industrial organizations or governments? Had we taken a more wholistic and inclusive approach, things would have been a lot better. This is how it loops back to male privilege.

Whenever you are in the midst of an unreasonable and unfair situation, there is always the option of deciding not to continue. But, EVERY time when a group has raised their hand and asked for rights and protections that others automatically have, it has ALWAYS been met with resistance; very harsh resistance.

[Rianna Humble]

Nice job blaming the staff's failure to create a safe and friendly environment for FTM members on the largest group of people on this forum.

Yours is a not very nice try at blaming staff for the hostility that MtF members demonstrated towards the FtM members. There was a safe area, but as soon as they poked their nose out into the more public areas of the forum, there were people waiting to snipe at them much as you are trying to snipe at staff. Could your words stem from a guilty conscience?


If that was the case, they were walking around with blinders on as the original statement was clearly true.
Just because the hate speech occasionally contained an element of part truth did not make it any less hurtful for the FtM members. In the same way that your insult towards the FtM is hurtful to any remaining members. It does not become any less insulting merely because in your not so humble opinion there was an element of truth in the hatred spewed by others against them

[Lorileah]

So much Bull...so little time. How about maybe FtM's don't need to whine about their lives? How their SOs treat them badly?

This, in my opinion, shows that the closeted CDs have no idea what is happening in the world. I have several friends who are FtM ( Pre and post Op). As far as going out...you don't have a clue how many FtM "crossdressers" there are because they don't make it a big sexual deal with oversized genitalia or camping it up. They just go out and be who they are. Could be that in your little world you are so focused on looking for clues to a MtF that you ignore any FtMs.

Who, in the name of all that is holy, is attacking men and being male? Men make 30% more than women. Men are treated differently in business both as customers and as workers than women. Another closeted perception in my opinion. Get out, see the world from a female perspective. I have been treated like I dropped 50 IQ points by those poor put down men.

In RE: this site. When I joined we had a good contingent of FtMs, but the MtF's saw fit to pelt them with the same crap that is used on the GGs. Poor you, no one understands poor you...:Angry3:

You were very unwelcoming to the guys when they were here...sometimes nasty.

You want to know why there aren't more FtMs on this site...check the boards. What do YOU have to offer them? Maybe they have their ducks in a row and don't give a darn about new shoes or panties or sneaking out to feel how it feels to be a guy. Maybe they are just trying to survive

[flatlander_48]

Could your words stem from a guilty conscience?

The exodus would have to have happened since July, 2013 in the context of the forum.


You want to know why there aren't more FtMs on this site...check the boards. What do YOU have to offer them? Maybe they have their ducks in a row and don't give a darn about new shoes or panties or sneaking out to feel how it feels to be a guy. Maybe they are just trying to survive

Sorry, Apples and Oranges...


Just because the hate speech occasionally contained an element of part truth did not make it any less hurtful for the FtM members. In the same way that your insult towards the FtM is hurtful to any remaining members. It does not become any less insulting merely because in your not so humble opinion there was an element of truth in the hatred spewed by others against them

That was NOT an insult. It was a reflection of the perceptions in the general populace and is a statement of fact. I didn't create them and I certainly do not try to perpetuate them. But, regardless of what I said, that does NOT make it any less true.

As a bisexual, I have often heard that we are in perpetual stealth mode as we don't appear any different from anyone else. True. If we wanted to back up from same-sex intimacy, we can always go back to being regular heterosexual people. That is also true. While I'm fairly certain that the opinion is more widespread than the reality, clearly it can and does happen. I cannot change the reality just because I don't like the statement. That's like Revisionist History.

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

I think the reasons are almost entirely cultural in nature:
1. FtM TS's are quite invisible. Indeed invisible to the point where it's a serious problem for them in many vital areas, such as healthcare. This invisibility contributes to having even worse statistics about them than we do about MtFs. We just don't know. There are some statistics that suggest for people who transition the numbers are about even, but in my area, the ratio is about 3:1 MtF's to FtM's.
2. It's more or less not possible for someone assigned female at birth to crossdress. It just isn't. It generally takes a lot of effort to pass as a man, for most FAAB, at least until the ones who transition have been on T for a while. Most people, observing the FtM, won't even realize that they are even trying to pass as a man. On the other hand, for comparison, put a guy in a dress, send him walking down the street, and everyone knows something's going on with him.
3. Women emulating masculinity in some ways has been a part of feminism since the 70's, and is required, really, to compete in many workplaces.
4. A FTM can, because of the relatively high degree of cultural freedom to express their gender that women have, discover "OMG - I've been actually living as a man for years! I - I guess I am one!" In my experience very few MtF's have this experience. The ones who do are generally CDs in unusually accepting situations socially, relationships, employment, etc. (Betty Crow is an example of this in some ways, I think.)

@Alice Torn:
Trust me, it's not about men feeling "obsolete." The guys who run things feel large and in charge, I can assure you of that.
I'm sorry you don't feel like much of a man. Have you ever considered that you may well not be one at all?

At the idea that FtM's somehow have it easier. I don't buy this. It's different because of physical medicine and social constraints. On the one hand, T does a lot for many FtM's - hair, voice, physical appearance. This is more than what estradiol does for MtF's. On the other hand, the options for bottom surgery are much better developed for MtF's, than FtM's. I mean much better developed that many FtM's choose not to have surgery not because they don't need it - but because the 40% chance that they'll never have another orgasm again after they have it dissuades them. (Well that, and the $100K+ price tag that some of the surgical options require is simply totally beyond their financial means.)

Can you imagine, in our culture, how hard it must be, psychologically, to be just one hell of a man, but to have no penis to speak of, or a very, very, very small one, coupled with a vagina? Look - what I have between my legs freaks me the hell out. It's wrong, and I have nightmares about it. It doesn't define me as a woman though.

There is a lot less emphasis placed on the attributes associated with a woman's genitals than with a man's. Basically, if we have one, we're golden. This isn't entirely true, as any woman who can't conceive a child will attest. It's also different in that society feels it has a proprietary interest in controlling what we do with our vaginas - whereas for men, telling them what to do with their dicks will almost certainly send most dudes to war. In our culture, in many ways, for men, it's all about the dick. (I think this has to be even worse for the FtM's who identify as gay men. My god, I can't even imagine some of the things they must experience, because if you think straight men objectify women, you ain't seen nothin' till you've watched a gay man objectify another man.)

[Alice Torn]

PaulaQ, I would rather have been a girl, yes. At this point, though, because of my religious laws, and situation, with low fixed income, and hard work, I could not consider transitioning. My family and life has been agony, but I know i don't have that long to live in this veil of tears. Well, I have always admired many women, and i always felt like my maleness is bad, especially because so many brutes have used sex harshly on women. I never have had sex in my life, because of male organ shame, and the gross misuse of sex on women. I have looked at every side of equal pay, and it really is quite close now. Let us s top beating each other up, and insulting each other. Live and let live. I know western society goes from one side of the road to the other, though. And, i guess some of us will have to agree to disagree, on a lot of this. I have known so many bachelors, with very low self esteem, and some became addicts, and some took their lives, because of being loners, unwanted, and unloved. I dress in a large part of being a veteran, who is 60, never had sex, admires women and their dress, nor girlfriend for decades, other than acquaintences. I won't have sex with one, partly because i would wait until wedded, and partly because the woman would have to take the lead, as i have male shame, and am do not want to be a predator, or aggressive. But living alone and single may be best for me and all my tormented siblings, too. I like solitude, with my cats, and occasional dressup. Would have liked to have been born female completely sometimes, yes, but my reality, and circumstances , oh well. On this site, there are definitely more MTF dressers, than FTM, but maybe out in public, more the opposite.

[Kate T]

I am going to agree with what the various moderators have said. There are PLENTY of FTM's out there. The following study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4299544/

is a GOOD quality peer reviewed study of transgender individuals in Ontario, Canada, where there were MORE FTM respondents than MTF (227 FTM vs 205 MTF). So the original premise is false.

It is concerning that FTM do not feel included in these forums. Perhaps they see the forum as less about gender and more about "crossdressing"? Don't know. Whilst there is NO indication that it is easier for an FTM to be accepted socially there is evidence that someone who identifies as FTM is far more likely to describe themselves as "genderqueer" than someone who identifies as MTF. Maybe a "genderqueer" forum would have more FTM's present. Personally I think it is a terrible shame that we do not have more FTM members as I think they provide a fascinating perspective "from the other side of the fence" so to speak.

[Jenniferathome]

One aspect is that Mothers take more of an early role in child raising than the Father. This gives the Mother more opportunity for influence, if she chooses.

Uh, nope. Women have traditionally raised the kids. When most of us here were being raised, that number was close to 100%. Given the very small number of cross dressers suspected, your theory does not hold water.


There are far more MtF cross-dressers because wearing men's clothes usually does nothing for women. ...

Nope. Female clothing does nothing for non-CD women. Just like male clothing does nothing for non-CD men. For a woman who was FtM, the male clothes would be equal in imporantce as they are to us MtF cross dressers.


maybe its because women are attractive and men are not…. (well, to me anyway)

That's a big swing and a miss.

[Launa]

I am a Trans member that will say FTM do have an easier time crossdressing in the world than the MTF. Lets face it as a woman go and cut your hair short, throw on a T-shirt a male pair of jeans, tennis shoes, male coat and your just an un feminine woman. The FTM can still use the female washrooms without causing a national riot etc.... Hell I grew my hair long in the mid 80's still wore all male clothes back in the day and people had 40 fits over it. Just look at this video and tell me that people will generally not bat an eye if they see a woman like this but holy crow if it was a male doing the opposite we'd have a huge problem!

Now I will say the "playing field" is very level if we're talking about the TS then its hard for the FTM folks get hair growth, muscle, skeletal structure, voice, getting an Adams apple etc.... Then its just as hard for any TS to get everything they need.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwIIKuPpIpA&feature=player_detailpage

[Lorileah]

The exodus would have to have happened since July, 2013 in the context of the forum. because....? The exodus as you call it happened about 4 years ago when the FtM forum went from a handful to one




Sorry, Apples and Oranges... in what context. You can't throw that out and not back it up. What do the CDs discuss here? Anything a FtM would want to discuss? Panties...clothes....make up...? Why would a FtM want to be part of this? When ever they did give any opinion they were usually silenced by the membership NOT the staff ( I am still friends with several who aren't here anymore...we rarely discuss underwear). But I can ask them why they won't play in this sand box anymore So what, in your mind is the reason MtFs are less here (and not really in real life and don't give me that stuff about a woman can look like a man and no one cares...)






As a bisexual, I have often heard that we are in perpetual stealth mode as we don't appear any different from anyone else. :idontknow: No clue what a bisexual in the wild would look like....umm..do they look different when they aren't in "Stealth mode" Being Bi doesn't really have a physical visual state...does it? So that statement is a weasel at best..a deflection. Sort of like saying "choose a side"

[char GG]

"Have you ever considered that you may well not be one at all?"
this is an odd thing to say to or about Alice Torn.

[becky77]

I am a Trans member that will say FTM do have an easier time crossdressing in the world than the MTF. Lets face it as a woman go and cut your hair short, throw on a T-shirt a male pair of jeans, tennis shoes, male coat and your just an un feminine woman. The FTM can still use the female washrooms without causing a national riot etc.... Hell I grew my hair long in the mid 80's still wore all male clothes back in the day and people had 40 fits over it. Just look at this video and tell me that people will generally not bat an eye if they see a woman like this but holy crow if it was a male doing the opposite we'd have a huge problem!

Now I will say the "playing field" is very level if we're talking about the TS then its hard for the FTM folks get hair growth, muscle, skeletal structure, voice, getting an Adams apple etc.... Then its just as hard for any TS to get everything they need.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwIIKuPpIpA&feature=player_detailpage

This is where the problem lies, this is full of insults and you probably don't even realise it.
First off, let's insult the GGs, so short hair and jeans and trainers means you have no femininity?
Why do so many people think femininity is directly linked to a hemline?

Secondly the FTM, what if they want to be seen as a man, use male toilets and not just be considered an unfeminine woman?
For them it's really hard to be treated like a man and they can't even get respect here.
MtF crossdressers call themselves girls, honey etc etc despite identifying as male and just being in it for the clothes. But you can't extend the same courtesy to FtM TS that do identity as men.

[Sandra]

Well said Becky...but I fear it will just fall on deaf ears as it has done on the past.

[Sonya]

But you can't extend the same courtesy to FtM TS that do identity as men.

Becky but Launa did differentiate between the FtM TS in her last paragraph. I thought this topic was about why there are more MtF dressers then FtM cross dressers. Maybe the question should be why there are more part-time(casual) MtF cross dressers then part-time(casual) FtM crossdressers. Only thing I can think of is females already broke those barriers of wearing what they want long time ago. This is not true for genetic males yet but maybe will change in future. Make up, high heels, lace, nail polish ect are all perfectly okay for genetic girls to wear or not wear as they please but not so much for genetic males. I agree that the use of feminine and femineity get used inappropriately quite a bit in this forum but you must realise that not everyone cross dresses for same reasons.

[Zylia]

We didn't fail to create a safe and friendly environment for the FtMs, but some of the cders just couldn't help but having ago at them, the staff enforced rules when things got out of hand but in the end the FtMs just had enough. I am not criticising the community I am stating a fact, if fact if you read my post again that you quoted I said SOME not the whole community please get your facts right when replying. You just need to think all this happened before you joined and you didn't see what went off. As for you comment about criticising staff, staff accept constructive criticism but it will not be aired on the main forum.
Fair enough. If the FTM members had problems with some members, it's really not that surprising it's a group of CDs, considering CDs is by far the largest group here, but all I want to say is that it doesn't say much about CDs in general. If any group of people on this forum is going to drive me off it probably is a specific group of CDs as well and I'm a CD myself.


Could your words stem from a guilty conscience?
Are you serious? Do you even know me?

[Teresa]

Alice,
Last time I made this reply some called it bunk, but I still feel it makes some sense !
The fact that we are conceived as neutral gender but very soon the female line develops as a natural progression and males are deviated at some point in the foetal stage . So males tend to carry various degrees of gender, more so than females ! All we have to do naturally is fertilise women, how we achieve those ends does depend very much on our background influences !
Maybe I'm speaking more now from my personal circumstances, but the early interest in girls and certain clothes that turned me on enough to have an involuntary orgasm! This hardwired my preferences in achieving my designated role as a male !
Male development is more deviant than female, you get far more gender confusion in males, so many aspects show a higher percentage than females !

[flatlander_48]

because....? The exodus as you call it happened about 4 years ago when the FtM forum went from a handful to one

There was a comment about Z possibly having a guilty conscience. But, she's only been a member here since 2013 and the timing of the exodus was 4 years ago. In the context of this forum, Z couldn't have a guilty conscience over anything that happened here as she wasn't around.


in what context. You can't throw that out and not back it up. What do the CDs discuss here? Anything a FtM would want to discuss? Panties...clothes....make up...? Why would a FtM want to be part of this? When ever they did give any opinion they were usually silenced by the membership NOT the staff ( I am still friends with several who aren't here anymore...we rarely discuss underwear). But I can ask them why they won't play in this sand box anymore So what, in your mind is the reason MtFs are less here (and not really in real life and don't give me that stuff about a woman can look like a man and no one cares...)

It's Apples and Oranges in the sense that needs, goals and interests of F2M and M2F crossdressers may not be as well aligned as we might think. It isn't exactly different sides of the same coin. I would think that some facets are common, such as family isues and reactions. Clearly there would be no need for a F2M to discuss female clothes and makeup. Conversely, I would doubt if M2F crossdressers would have muchinterest in discussing male clthes. As it sits, there is a lot of discussion here devoted to the notion of passing or not. I don't see that this as a major topic for F2M's as the bar is MUCH lower.

From what you say, F2M members were never a large population here. I suspect that faced with the reality that the majority of threads here considered crossdressing from a MALE perspective, thee wasn't much space left over to consider things from a FEMALE perspective. In other words, the forum is a victim of its own success.


No clue what a bisexual in the wild would look like....umm..do they look different when they aren't in "Stealth mode" Being Bi doesn't really have a physical visual state...does it? So that statement is a weasel at best..a deflection. Sort of like saying "choose a side"

The concept is the same. Even though a statement may be uncomfortable, that does not change the reality and the inherent truth.

And no, Choose A Side is very different. That isn't based in reality and it doesn't reflect reality. It's just somebody verbalizing their distress. Metaphorically, it could be put down to Misery Loves Company.

DeeAnn

[Nigella]

From what you say, F2M members were never a large population here. I suspect that faced with the reality that the majority of threads here considered crossdressing from a MALE perspective, thee wasn't much space left over to consider things from a FEMALE perspective. In other words, the forum is a victim of its own success.

DeeAnn

The FtMs on this site did not identify as female, so would not identify as crossdressers themselves, that "label" was placed upon them by SOME members of the M2F community. They had their own private forum, just as the M2F transsexuals have, but as has previously been stated in this thread, they were slammed if they stepped out of it into the wider crossdressing community.

Whilst I would suspect there are some F2M crossdressers, those on this forum identified as F2M transsexuals.

[becky77]

Most likely only FtM TS would visit here and they should be treated as men, no question.
FtM crossdressers are usually called tomboys and have no real need to come here.
Before anyone says how easy it is for them, it wasn't.
Women have and still are treated secondary, like sexual objects or a possession.
They chained themselves to railings and fought hard for their rights, how do you think the first women that dared to wear men's trousers were treated?

Women have done their bit to freely crossdress should they wish.
Question is, instead of bitching how easy they have it, what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights?
So many people safely in their closets moaning about what women can wear, what's stopping you? Cause it's the same thing that stopped them and they still did it.

Also on a side note their is probably much less actual FtM crossdressers that get a kick out of the clothes, simply because how strong testosterone can be in the sexualised aspect so very common in MtF crossdressers. Before there is a tirade of "It's not sexual", just look how many are into the sexualized image of a woman, high heels, stockings, red nails, short skirts, tight clothes etc etc.
This is not wanting to dress like a woman, this is like dressing as the sexy female image that turns you on.
(This is not aimed at everyone of course, I know many of you dress accordingly).

[Lily Catherine]

Before there is a tirade of "It's not sexual", just look how many are into the sexualized image of a woman, high heels, stockings, red nails, short skirts, tight clothes etc etc.
This is not wanting to dress like a woman, this is like dressing as the sexy female image that turns you on.

This aspect is quite downplayed if not denied, I must admit. Sure, for many of this subset it may be an identity issue, but there has to be some degree of sexual overlap in striving to look like a "hot girl". There's likely a form of erotic intent.

In terms of the mechanical act of wearing the clothes of the opposite gender: Granted, much of modern 'male' clothing may be unisex, while hemlines and necklines also possess some degree of female exclusivity. Probably where the greater number of opinions on MtF cross-dressing, judged largely as a genetic male presenting as female, come from. After all, we tend to judge ourselves as we think and others as they do.

[pamela7]

I wondered about "weighing in" here, me being M2F CD and my SO being onsite too. My stepdaughter (18) and her/his (please excuse gender-defining words here) girl/boyfriend (also 18) have been "an item" since they were 14. They define themselves as F2M TS, with the friend intent on SRS, but with our daughter presently settled with her body as it is, tho not ruling out SRS at some future date. It's a long, long time since she told her mum she wanted to be a boy, and since then she always xdressed in male attire (except panties cos they feel nicer to her, and a bra (to flatten her chest)).

Here's the thing: they behave, speak, act, laugh, play, talk (in my opinion) like a pair of girls - it's like they're playing at being male, cos the behaviour is not hardwired male in a female body. I used to joke about it, not realising my own nature.

But here's the thing - are we mostly guys playing at being girls, doing it all in a man-like way?

So, to the point of the thread - you just don't notice the F2M's, cos they wear clothing that women can get away with, and they can look young-faced enough to explain the lack of beard - mean they get asked for ID all the time in shops or bars. It's not such a big deal for society, because passing is relatively easy f2m.

The next aspect is, yes, they're TS more than CD, cos they're experiencing life as a male in a female body, albeit that's conceptually not behaviorally. Any woman can CD into male clothes and no-one notices, its not a problem in society. And that's why we're mostly GM here.

that's my ha'penn'orth, argue away ...

xxx

[PretzelGirl]

For those that haven't, get out in your community and talk with some FTM, befriend them and understand their issues (with all appropriate courtesies applied). I have one friend that is always referred to as she because there is no amount of binding that makes his chest minimal enough. I have never heard that problem with someone's "package". Another friend was harassed in the bathroom because regular use of a stall instead of a urinal outed him. As Paula says, their bottom surgery options suck and I will add the top has quite a ways to go too between the scarring and overall appearance. No, they don't just throw on a flannel shirt and jeans and cut their hair short to make everything well. One thing I can say is I talk support with more MTFs, which may be a side effect of my continued involvement in Tri-Ess. But when it comes to community meeting, events, getting things done; I believe we tend to see just as many, if more, FTMs in this area. Don't underestimate their numbers or their needs.

[flatlander_48]

The FtMs on this site did not identify as female, so would not identify as crossdressers themselves, that "label" was placed upon them by SOME members of the M2F community. They had their own private forum, just as the M2F transsexuals have, but as has previously been stated in this thread, they were slammed if they stepped out of it into the wider crossdressing community.

Whilst I would suspect there are some F2M crossdressers, those on this forum identified as F2M transsexuals.

Yes, there are distinct differences and I think the discussion has blurred a bit because we have bounced back and forth between F2M crossdressers and transsexuals. And as I said, for F2M and M2F crossdressers it isn't exactly 2 sides of the same coin.


Most likely only FtM TS would visit here and they should be treated as men, no question.
FtM crossdressers are usually called tomboys and have no real need to come here.

No, I think they would. They would come for some similar reasons as M2F: comraderie, dealing with family issues, work issues, etc. On the other hand, there would be some distinct differences, such as perceptions of society at large directed at them and even finding appropriate clothing (due to size considerations). I suspect that they would get the flip-side of the question that we get: Are you a Lesbian?


Before anyone says how easy it is for them, it wasn't.
Women have and still are treated secondary, like sexual objects or a possession.
They chained themselves to railings and fought hard for their rights, how do you think the first women that dared to wear men's trousers were treated?

Last 2 paragraphs of Post #22...


Women have done their bit to freely crossdress should they wish.
Question is, instead of bitching how easy they have it, what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights?
So many people safely in their closets moaning about what women can wear, what's stopping you? Cause it's the same thing that stopped them and they still did it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have begun to go out dressed more frequently in recent times. Things have been headed in that direction for some time and now it is beginning to happen. The umbrella of transgender seems to fit quite nicely.

And, as of last October I have been an active member of our LBGT employee affinity group for 11 years. Overall, I've been active in other affinity groups for 20 years and a former president of one for 3 years. Fairness and equality for ALL is very important to me as over my nearly 43 year career, I've had unfairness visited upon me and also have been in a position to do something about it.


Also on a side note their is probably much less actual FtM crossdressers that get a kick out of the clothes, simply because how strong testosterone can be in the sexualised aspect so very common in MtF crossdressers. Before there is a tirade of "It's not sexual", just look how many are into the sexualized image of a woman, high heels, stockings, red nails, short skirts, tight clothes etc etc.
This is not wanting to dress like a woman, this is like dressing as the sexy female image that turns you on.
(This is not aimed at everyone of course, I know many of you dress accordingly).

Careful with that as we have no idea as to what portion of the population here are represented by what you said. What you could be seeing is just a small, but vocal, subset.

DeeAnn

[Alice Torn]

Teresa. Intersting post.

[Dianne S]

See what I mean.... comments like this is what drove the FtMS away from here.

Really? You think someone would take my comment badly? I completely didn't intend to be dismissive of the angst FtMs go through... it was purely based on personal observation based on the FtMs I know.

I honestly meant no offense. I do know a few FtMs and am completely sensitive to what they're going through, their equal desire for correct pronouns, etc.


i would like to know how ftm's have it easier the mtf's?

I didn't say they have it easier. I said they usually have a pretty easy time to go stealth which is entirely a different thing.

[Julie1123]

I can see how telling FtM people that their struggle is easier can be offensive. Especially, as I see this place as one of support. I had a guy deliver me pizza the other day and I'm 99% sure he was FtM. He looked really good, there was just something in the face that hinted female and the mannerisms were a bit off. All I could think about while I was signing the slip, was damn you've got some balls. As in brave as hell. You're doing what I can't do. This made me smile at him and I made eye contact passing the slip back and getting my pizza from him and it seemed like there was a look of relief on his face and he gave a big smile in return. Maybe he thought I was flirting, maybe I'm projecting a bit, but even so, to make that much of a change in your appearance, and yes its ok for women to wear men's clothing typically these days, but how ok is it for women to want to be men? They most likely get told no from men, and they probably also get told no from other women who think men are the enemy, they have to worry about what their friends and family are going to think and who's going to be supportive and who isn't.

I've always disliked the viewpoint of "your struggle is less than mine so what do you have to complain about?" It trivializes what they go through. If that's the reason they no longer come here, I don't blame them. It sucks. It sucks for us and it sucks for them, and I hope they can find other places that are just as supportive of them as this place has been for me.

[Launa]

This is where the problem lies, this is full of insults and you probably don't even realise it.
First off, let's insult the GGs, so short hair and jeans and trainers means you have no femininity?
Why do so many people think femininity is directly linked to a hemline?

Secondly the FTM, what if they want to be seen as a man, use male toilets and not just be considered an unfeminine woman?
For them it's really hard to be treated like a man and they can't even get respect here.
MtF crossdressers call themselves girls, honey etc etc despite identifying as male and just being in it for the clothes. But you can't extend the same courtesy to FtM TS that do identity as men.

Question 1. I didn't say short hair, jeans, running shoes = no femininity. There are millions and billions of GG's that are absolutely gorgeous with short hair, jeans and runners.
I'm talking about the CDing FTM folks.
I am saying that if a FTM CD woman wants to dress a "bit" on the manly side or butchy side and go out in public then so what? Nobody bats an eye. Why come to this site when there is no problem? However take a guy give him some longer hair, a pair of womens Lulu Lemmon pants and casual womens yoga top and jacket but without all the makeup etc and you'll see all the different looks, stares, whispering comments.
Heck I saw another thread on here today that said something about men getting caught wearing panties in the ER room or along those lines..... Yeah if a guy is seen wearing a pair of panties in a situation like that everyone attending might go hmmm? And have a snicker or 2. Take a FTM CDer that's underdressing in male underwear in the same situation and nobody attending would look twice.

Question 2. I don't think femininity is linked to the hemline.

Lastly, I did comment about if the FTM is TS or more on the Trans side of things. I said the playing field is for sure level at that point when your talking about trying to get facial hair, hormones, facial surgery etc. So I am saying its just as hard at that point. Maybe even harder for FTM if they are going all the way with genital reassignment surgery etc.


Most likely only FtM TS would visit here and they should be treated as men, no question.
FtM crossdressers are usually called tomboys and have no real need to come here.
Before anyone says how easy it is for them, it wasn't.
Women have and still are treated secondary, like sexual objects or a possession.
They chained themselves to railings and fought hard for their rights, how do you think the first women that dared to wear men's trousers were treated?

Women have done their bit to freely crossdress should they wish.
Question is, instead of bitching how easy they have it, what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights?
So many people safely in their closets moaning about what women can wear, what's stopping you? Cause it's the same thing that stopped them and they still did it.

Also on a side note their is probably much less actual FtM crossdressers that get a kick out of the clothes, simply because how strong testosterone can be in the sexualised aspect so very common in MtF crossdressers. Before there is a tirade of "It's not sexual", just look how many are into the sexualized image of a woman, high heels, stockings, red nails, short skirts, tight clothes etc etc.
This is not wanting to dress like a woman, this is like dressing as the sexy female image that turns you on.
(This is not aimed at everyone of course, I know many of you dress accordingly).

Well I will say you are absolutely right that women have fought dam hard for their rights and should be commended for it for sure. I don't want to take anything away from them by anything I have said at all because the playing field is still not level for women and we have more progress world wide to make. However if a nation with a big majority of men stands up and says we want to wear dresses then it wouldn't be an issue for very long would it? Most men don't see this as a problem in their lives and cringe about the thought of wearing a dress etc. There's not many of us out there.

I really like your question about what are we doing to make progress with our rights instead of bitching!!!! Love it!!!
I can only speak for myself and say I support my Pride center and anything LGBT related anyway I can. I try and give money when I can and will sign any gov't legislation for the better but I am also not the poster boy to go on the front page of a LGBT or Trans magazine. I'm not there but wished I could be.
I'm out in public as much as I can be, unfortunately not enough for my liking because I hate the closet.

[Sandra]

Really? You think someone would take my comment badly? I completely didn't intend to be dismissive of the angst FtMs go through... it was purely based on personal observation based on the FtMs I know.

I honestly meant no offense. I do know a few FtMs and am completely sensitive to what they're going through, their equal desire for correct pronouns, etc.


Dianne yes some of the FtMs did take offence to comments like that and what also annoyed them was the fact that those that made the comments couldn't understand why they got annoyed. I wasn't having a go at you personally when I quoted your post.

[Andy66]

Well for one thing, right now there are more restrictions on men's wear than woman's; there are plenty of crossdressing women, but you simply don't notice them.

Yes, thats pretty much what I was going to say.

[sometimes_miss]

For what it's worth, 'autoandrophilia' (i.e. a woman who is aroused by the thought of herself as a man) is deemed non-existent, at least as part of an 'official' DSM diagnosis, by the writers of the latest DSM revision including Blanchard.
I have to wonder if that is because sexually assertive women (more specifically, female 'tops') are not considered abnormal, but submissive men, are; so much so, that a woman who might occasionally fantasize herself as a male during sex would have no reason to go to a therapist. We also have to remember that the DSM is not by any means perfect; for example, they have expanded the diagnostic criteria for ADD so far that right now, the majority of the general population can be fit into that diagnosis.

[becky77]

@ Launa: I wasn't specifically targeting you, just parts of your post were useful to make a point.

[Stumble]

But here's the thing - are we mostly guys playing at being girls, doing it all in a man-like way?
Good question. I see conversation and attitudes remaining very male in the MtF of my small world.

[Jenniferathome]

I have to wonder if that is because sexually assertive women (more specifically, female 'tops') are not considered abnormal, but submissive men, are; so much so, that a woman who might occasionally fantasize herself as a male during sex would have no reason to go to a therapist. ...

WTF!? You know what a woman on top means to me? A really comfortable position for ME! And by the way, it is more comfortable for my wife as well because my weight and heat are not on her. This has nothing to do with aggressive or submissive. By the way, your assertion is just opinion and not based in fact at all and reads only as a misinformed, gender confused, wishful thinking.

[Rianna Humble]

Lets face it as a woman go and cut your hair short, throw on a T-shirt a male pair of jeans, tennis shoes, male coat and your just an un feminine woman.

This is where the problem lies, this is full of insults and you probably don't even realise it.
First off, let's insult the GGs, so short hair and jeans and trainers means you have no femininity?


Question 1. I didn't say short hair, jeans, running shoes = no femininity.

So if you didn't mean "no femininity" what did you mean by "un feminine woman"? Un-feminine certainly sounds like you are accusing those women of lacking femininity.

[Launa]

What I mean is if you are a FTM CD and start to do all those things and add a little bit of butchiness to your look, yes you can look un feminime for that matter call it no femininity too if you want. I'm not accusing ALL GG's that do this to look un feminime. However some might....... It depends on how far the individual wants to go with their look. Demi Moore had a shaved head years ago in a movie and she was still smoking hot in her photos.

If you mis interpret what I'm saying I will try and explain it a bit better by giving another example here. A woman can have short hair like Rihanna if you know who she is and she looks hot wearing anything even a green garbage bag if she wanted to. However if she or other women tried hard to butch up their looks a bit with a short male hair cut, male jeans, T-shirt etc then yes they can make themselves un feminime, no feminimity call it that. But its not an insult towards GG's that go for the looks like Sharon Stone, Rihanna and others the like.
However I will call it as I see it if a woman, "not all women" and I put that in quotations, does have a standard page boy haircut, wears a male or a neutral track suit from Wal Mart, male style jeans or a cheap pair of jeans, tennis shoes etc then yes she "can" look unfeminime but its not automatic. It is possible and yes they are out there but not ALL GG's that do this look that way.

[Launa]

@ Launa: I wasn't specifically targeting you, just parts of your post were useful to make a point.

Understood, thanks!

Cheers

[BillieAnneJean]

Right now, in parts of the US, the LGBT community is under attack. We may very well need each other's support in the future. As always I pledge to be kind, understanding, and helpful to anyone, anywhere, any time. That is what I hope to receive on this forum also.
Billie

[Talisker]

At least for crossdressers my bet is that it is because many have a sexual fetish kink. Men are attracted to images and looks much more than women even if it is themselves in the mirror. Also women can wear whatever they want without even being labelled as a "crossdresser"

[Aelita Nolan]

My view is that there are more Male-to-Female cross-dressers than Female-to-Male cross-dressers is because men are still restricted buy society in what they can wear that is seen a appropriate. Women can wear pants and shirts in public, but men can not wear dresses, skirts, etc. in public without having questions raised. So women can wear pretty much anything they want and men are limited. However I have not noticed many women wearing dresses these days, except in formal settings.

[StephanieinSecret]

WTF!? You know what a woman on top means to me? A really comfortable position for ME! And by the way, it is more comfortable for my wife as well because my weight and heat are not on her. This has nothing to do with aggressive or submissive. By the way, your assertion is just opinion and not based in fact at all and reads only as a misinformed, gender confused, wishful thinking.
I must disagree with you somewhat. I know full well that physical position is not indicative of who is "in charge" during sex.

However, the words "top" and "bottom", in the LGBT community, absolutely do indicate and refer to "active" and "passive" partners.

Grammatically, your objection makes sense, but in the context of this discussion, it's not terribly relevant, and may serve to further confuse the terminology.

[vicky_cd99_2]

Support all trans people. We need numbers. In the LGBT world once the LGB get what they want they leave us hanging, not all I am speaking in generalities. It is easier for a FTM to blend in to society than a MTF because of societies rules on dress. Plus it is more accepting of a 5'5" guy than a 6'1" 260 lb girl. You more average size girls can blend easier than us defensive end size folks. Am I jealous, a little at times of both aspects. I wish we could all wear what we want when we want. Someday someday.