Finally talking to & seeking compromise with my wonderful wife

[kaleyg]

This is a repost from earlier with all references to the "R" word omitted.

So, I'm looking for advice on seeking a compromise with my wife. We've had a zero tolerance policy -- really more of a "this is a disorder/addiction that needs healing" policy. Now I'm back in therapy and realizing -- though my therapist remains neutral -- that the only sustainable path is one where I can find some expression of my feminine side. I've tried complete "abstinence" and this always leads me back to dressing in secret and lying to my wife. My marriage is infinitely more important to me than the dressing, so divorce is not an option. (I have the world's best wife.) My view has slowly changed over the years and I no longer see a strong argument for CDing being (inherently) morally wrong. Given our background, this is a big deal and will be hard for my wife.

Any advice on suggesting small steps of feminine expression? If she agrees to let me dress in some manner, I want to find a way to start that won't overwhelm her. I may suggest letting me dress at my mom's only (far, far away, and my mom is accepting).

Any thoughts on this process? I need to take it slowly because of where she's coming from. I will never demand acceptance or accommodation.

[pamela7]

We need a lot more info before offering any specific advice, Kaley,

Clear explanations, useful frames about how its not really such a big deal, and listening, helping her perhaps seek counselling on dealing with the situation?

[kimdl93]

Have you and your wife actually spoken about how she feels and about how you feel? Before you start negotiating a compromise or trying to come up with specific measures or steps, try to have a fully open conversation...preferably more than one...that focuses on feelings. It may be best if these are moderated by an unbiased family therapist, so things stay constructive and on track.

[michelleddg]

Hi Kaley,

Congratulations on your initiative and I wish you absolutely the best luck and total success in finding happy common ground between you and your wife.

However, I'm moved to offer some tough love. Looking back over your posts over the years, you are waaaaaay into this. You explore your feminine side completely, deeply, and often. You seek small steps of feminine expression that your wife can live with. That's good. However, it just sounds for all the world like you'll be expecting an escalation clause that will allow you to build back to your current level of activity over time. Can you really see yourself making good on, say, 10% of your current level of activity over the long haul? Will you do well with the constant preoccupation and stress that comes with not satisfying a need? Will your wife be happy that your DNA has not changed an iota but you're in a semi-constant state of self-deprivation for the good of the marriage and the associated guilt she'll feel?

You know your capabilities and limitations and maybe you're fully capable of meeting your end of the bargain. But please, double please, be sure before you head to the negotiating table that you don't offer more than you can reasonably deliver. Again, best of luck! Hugs, Michelle

[Michelle (Oz)]

You are likely to have a long road ahead in settling on an arrangement in which you gain the space you need to explore your femme side while your wife can cope with your CDing. What that arrangement looks like is only something you can work out.

Keeping your dressing out of sight of your wife makes a lot of sense but she should at least know that you dress. Three years after my near disastrous reveal to my wife she has not seen me dressed and does not want to but I dress 3 to 4 days a week using a commercial storage garage as my change room. Your mum's place may be a good solution.


My marriage is infinitely more important to me than the dressing, so divorce is not an option. (I have the world's best wife.)

You may be told that the world's best wife would be more accepting. There is a natural reaction to rejection thinking that our wives do not really love us. I did work out that my wife did love me unconditionally even though my dressing was abhorrent to her. What unconditional love means in my wife's case is that she copes by putting my dressing out of her mind and our loving relationship thrives.


We've had a zero tolerance policy --

This sounds more like your wife's policy ... I don't see how "We" comes into it. Most CDers are burdened by guilt from the impact our dressing has on our wives. It places us at a disadvantage in pressing for some accommodation of our needs and a zero tolerance policy is the norm. Unless you can reach a compromise that gives you some space your future will be one of frustration, hurt, dishonesty and stress. You are finding that already.

Be firm and resolute but sensitive in your discussions with your wife, and don't make promises that you are unlikely to keep. Good luck.

[Leslie Langford]

What michelle said...

kaley, from your past posts, it is also evident that you have already confided in your mother regarding your crossdressing. Not only does she seem to be O.K. with this activity, she is now at the point of actively encouraging it, allowing you to dress at her place whenever you please (which you apparently are taking full advantage of, more and more) and has even accompanied you out in public when you are dressed en femme. Once your wife finds out about this - and she will, sooner or later - whether as part of this discussion, or at a future date - THAT'S when the excrement will really hit the ventilator, and it won't about the crossdressing per se. It will then be more about the fact that not only are you doing this behind her back (trust issues), your mother will be seen as trying to drive a wedge between you and her by helping you indulge in an activity that she clearly abhors. In short, your wife will see you as a "Momma's boy" (girl?), and that will kill her respect for you far more than seeing you in a dress ever will.

I really have no advice to offer as to how to extract yourself from this web of deceit and self-indulgence that you have created for yourself here. All I can do is alert you to the minefield that you are about to enter into, and suggest that you have an exit strategy or Plan "B" in place in case this blows up in your face in ways ways that you didn't anticipate. Perhaps using your therapist as an intermediary to do some damage control and "spin doctoring" to make the message/request that you are about to deliver to your wife as palatable as possible?

[justmetoo]

You seem pretty cool to me, Kaley. I have no advice. But I wish you the best!

[DanaR]

You seem pretty cool to me, Kaley. I have no advice. But I wish you the best!
I just wanted to chime in and agree with justmetoo.

[kaleyg]

Sooooo, I guess I'm pretty naive about this. Everyone's made some good points. Thank you everyone!
I did think I would start small and maybe progress . . . but, I don't know. If I can't go all the way to "going out", you're right -- it might be hard to give that up completely. Of course, the "world's greatest wife" is hyperbole, but I don't really fault her for being where she is right now on the issue. It would be like faulting a 6th century astronomer for thinking the sun revolved around the earth. She is just getting started in thinking about the issue and everything around her says its wrong.
Maybe this is a bad idea, or morally wrong or something, but I'm hoping to ease into the truth. I want to ask permission to dress at my mom's, after talking to my mom, and then I don't have to lie anymore. No need to bring up the past. I can't see any constructive reason for that.
The zero-tolerance policy was ours because I agreed to it and at one point believed it was the best thing. My views have changed.
Honestly, I don't know how much I need to be happy. Maybe I need to continue what I've shown in previous posts -- maybe I can be happy with less once I don't have to lie anymore. I don't know. But if she allows me to dress at my mom's, and maybe lets me go out (that will be a hard one), then that's about as far as I've ever gone.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Painting your toe nails, neutral if she can't stand color.
Moisturizing face, neck, hands, feet.
Plucking and shaping eyebrows - a little - yours look perfect right now!
Underdressing in panties, maybe a slip: no bras, no forms.
Sleep-wear - only you know what she might tolerate.

The next logical step would be some androgynous clothing inside the house, but again only you know what might work.

Good luck- you look fabulous in your avatar by the way- what a pretty smile!

[PaulaQ]

My marriage is infinitely more important to me than the dressing, so divorce is not an option. (I have the world's best wife.)

My guess is that you'll discover that, never the less, one of the two is much easier to end than the other, and I guess that won't be the dressing, since you've already tried that. And she may be the worlds' best wife - but she may not be the best for you if she can't accept this.

By the way, if she is completely unaccepting, particularly if this is perceived as a moral failure, no amount of incremental increase of feminine expression on your part is liable to ease her in to this.

Some women really strongly prefer very masculine men. If she's one of those, you are in for a very difficult time.

I wish you well, but this may be difficult.

[Erika Lyne]

Hey KayleG,

As we all know, CDing isn't ever "cured," nor is it a classic "addiction." It can be accepted by a spouse/SO but often with stifling limits. I didn't plan for my curent state with my wife, nor did I seek advice on how to approach her about it but I have progressed pretty much as Nikkilovesdresses mentioned: under dressing at first, polish on the toes and more over time. I first came out to my wife 27 years ago, I wear women's panties nearly every day and I can now dress at home to whatever extent I wish but I always try to keep her comfort level in mind. Many times I want to raid my own closet but supress it just because I feel that she may not be in the mood. Also, I know it is a limit for her with me wearing items to bed. If I do she acts as if it is just a sleep over, no romance. Another limit is no PDA/semi-PDA if I'm dressed, just friends. This is difficult for me but it is something she just isn't comfortable with. I can only try to help her be more comfortable but I cannot change her POV.

I fear that your needs are too great for her to accept anywhere as quickly as you wish. Maybe if you were to both go to your therapist together she might be able to see how this hurts you and that your love for her is true. I'm truely reaching but so many people swear by couple's therapy.

Also, there was a thread recently about a member here that had quite a rough run in with his wife. It might be worth a read. I can honestly say that this sounds like it could end up being you one day...please be cautious, careful and considerate. IF you find limits you can both live with be sure to honor them until you BOTH are able to agree to new ones. I push my wife's limits slower than I'd prefer but our results are often positive.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?226659-Wife-Had-Too-Much-Today!/page2

Best of luck,
-E

[Marcelle]

Hi Kaley,

I note from your responses and previous posts that you and your wife have discussed your dressing and as such, have come to this "zero tolerance" policy to which you agreed. I guess you now know this is not possible. I have always been a firm believer that when boundaries/rules/guidelines are decided upon, they should not be set in stone and to that both parties (the CDer and the SO) have to agree they can be opened for negotiation. With no flexibility built in, it is likely to lead to disaster later on down the road. IMHO, I think it is time to reopen the conversation about your CDing. It seems to have moved to a more integral part of your life which gives you great joy.

I won't sugar coat this . . . it will be a difficult conversation because it appears your wife has no tolerance for this part of you. I understand that you don't want to hurt your relationship but, if you could just do your thing on occasion, put it away and continue being happy in your life (easy peasy), I would say do so. However, from your description not being able to dress is causing you some emotional distress and as such, should you decided to just submerge, limit or stop dressing, it is likely the emotional distress will bleed out into your relationship in other ways . . . anger, resentment, depression, bitterness. All of these will most likely cause strain on your relationship. I would talk to your wife and try to explain to her how this makes you feel and if she wants no part of it, that is fine . . . many exist in a DADT relationship here. Good luck.

Hugs

Isha

[audreyinalbany]

I notice from your original post the "I'm back in therapy…" Perhaps you and the Mrs need to consider "We're" in therapy. This is an issues that needs you both to discuss and learn to live with. If, after counseling, she still finds it "abhorrent ', then you've got a whole new problem to deal with.

[Krisi]

It seems to me that if you are seeing a therapist but coming here for answers, you might need a new therapist. Also, seeing a therapist for crossdressing is saying that crossdressing is some sort of illness that needs to be cured. Is that why you're seeing the therapist?

If your wife insists on "no crossdressing" and you are not willing to stop crossdressing, the answer is pretty clear - it's not a good, loving marriage and it's time to get out.

On the other hand, if you can convince your wife that crossdressing is not "sick" and causes nobody any harm, you may be able to save the marriage.

[kaleyg]

Krisi -- I do like my therapist, but she has admitted that she doesn't have much experience with transgender/crossdressing clients. I have found her helpful in processing all this, though. You all have experience with this -- intimate experience.
Paula -- I believe that I could sustain the pattern I've been experiencing the last decade or so -- refrain from cding for a year or two (with some fantasizing), then I slip back into it secretly, then I confess or get caught, repeat. If I had to choose this repeating cycle or divorce, I'd choose the cycle. I'd probably cut off my right arm if it would save my marriage.
What I told my therapist last time was that I'm leaning toward seeking a compromise with my wife. I'm unconvinced that cding is morally wrong or that being bi-gender is a disorder, and so I think it would be ok to explore given how strongly I feel it. I think my therapist feels the same way. I'm just hoping that my wife will slowly come to see it also. Then she might allow some small expressions at home and maybe more at my mom's.
I'm having a conversation with a expert on faith/gender/sexuality that we both trust on Wednesday. If she agrees that this might be ok, then that will carry some weight with my wife.
I'm considering inviting my wife to meet with my therapist in a couples setting. Its a good idea.

[char GG]

Just out of curiousity, did your wife know about your dressing before you got married? If not, why?

[Krisi]

The term " bi-gender" gets thrown around quite a bit on this forum. I'm not sure if it a legitimate medical term or just something gets used here.

If you mean what I think you mean by that term, I see a problem with your marriage. It's one thing for a woman to accept that her husband likes to prance around in woman's clothing, wig, forms, etc., but quite something else if he believes he's not "all man". Certainly most women expect the man they marry to be just that, a "man". Not something in-between a man and a woman.

Perhaps your therapist can help you figure out where you stand on this. Then, take it from there.

BTW: I'm fully dressed as a woman as I write this but I know inside that I am a straight male who is a crossdresser. No confusion as to "gender".

[Tina_gm]

one thing I would recommend is to find a qualified gender therapist. Find one who does not have an agenda, most don't but sometimes you do come across them.

My thoughts are that before or if there is ever any cding in the presence of a partner we must 1st get to a place where there is a general comfort of acceptance of dressing. Too many cders will try to jump ahead to a partners participating, and sometimes that just won't ever work out well.

In your case it sounds as if your wife has to come to a place where she will not view your dressing as an illness that can be cured by abstaining or prayer or therapy. Dressing in her presence before this happens will likely cause further struggle.

[Tracii G]

From what I have been garnering from reading your posts is you have a selfish wife to some degree.
Look at it this way is she free to do whatever she wants to do but when it comes to you its her way and thats it?
If she truly loved you for the person you are she would at least try to understand.
Perhaps if you flipped the situation around where she was the CD'er expressing her male side.
Tell her how you would support her no matter what.
Marriage is a two way street and a compromise. I have been in one sided marriages and it sucks so I do understand.

Like other have said find a qualified therapist that deals in gender related cases.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Kaley,
Like some of the others here I’ve gone back through your previous posts to get a better sense of how you’ve come to this point. Without dwelling on the past I am glad to see that you are now doing everything you can to deal with things as honestly as possible. I sincerely hope you will be able to work things out with your wife and still satisfy your needs. To that end, my advice on reaching a compromise is that whatever you do, be sure that you find a way to keep meeting her needs. The deal with going to your mother’s to dress also involves you not spending time with your wife. That loss of time together can lead to feelings of isolation and separation in your relationship, and it may result in her building resentment against Kaley. She becomes “the other woman”. As you discuss moving forward you need to reassure her that you are still her husband and you truly value your relationship. The whole idea of compromise involves both people getting something out of the deal. You need to make sure your wife receives some benefit too.
I also want to disagree with Krisi’s view of therapy. Going to counseling because of crossdressing is not a sign that there is something wrong with it. It is important that you go through a process to understand what compels you to dress and how it fits into your life. Remember the Greek axiom “Know Thyself”. I don’t think you will be successful in leading your wife to a better understanding of why you need dress until you do yourself. I hope that becomes one of the goals of your sessions, if it isn’t one already.
One of my most important hobbies is photography. As a photographer I know that photographs always show what is real and true. When I look at your photos I see a woman with complete joy on her face and in her heart. Kaley brings out the real you. It will be a shame if you ever lose that. I truly hope things work out for you. There will be tough times ahead. I hope you might consider me someone to turn to when that happens.

Hugs,
Bridget

[Tina_gm]

I want to comment a little about what Traci said. To me, the selfish aspects of a wife are when she wants to reverse course, or have her partner do less or quit, rather than find a compromise. What makes this so difficult for partners when they were not told until after a commitment is that ultimately they will be the ones who are giving, the cder taking. It is just a matter of how much.

Unfortunately in the case of the op. They made the agreement not to, now the op will need to convince her wife to go back on an agreement. as I have seen and learned myself, try not to make hard agreements like I will never or I will only etc etc. Again, what happens is the wife is giving her cd partner is getting. .

I really do agree though, that marriage does need to be a 2 way street. It is just that so often so many of us enter into a marriage under a falsehood of our true selves. No matter how you dice it, that is always an unfair position to our partners.

[Launa]

Well from looking at your profile picture I can say like others here that you are not a small time, underdressing, weekend panty thriller. This is a big part of your life from what you have said I think you will need to figure out how you can negotiate something in strong terms not just in passing kind of talk. First you need to get your wife to the negotiating table to discuss this topic. You should have a counsellor there or else it can all run a muck real fast. Without a counsellor its like trying to defend yourself without a lawyer in court. Don't do it unless you are a pro already. Once you agree to meet then I suggest you write out your goals ahead of time and they should go something along the lines like:

Best possible outcome for me is ________. If you win this then you've won hands down and you then will have the worlds best wife for you.

Next Best outcome _______. If you win this one will you be ok with it?

Last outcome________. If you win this one will you be ok with it? Be honest

If the wife says no way to any of it then and you can't strike a deal then can you live the rest of your life with her? I'm sure you can but how miserable will you be?

[kaleyg]

I REALLY appreciate all that is being said. It is helpful and insightful.
I may be wrong here, but here's why I don't think my wife's resistance is selfish. In her eyes, it is like alcoholism. No wife would be seen as selfish who refused to enable her husband's alcoholism. Her position is the rational and loving one. However, I think she may be slowly coming to see my desire to dress as something disanalogous to alcohol abuse. If she comes to see it as morally neutral (as I am coming to believe), but still says "no way," that would be selfish.
I did tell her before we got married, but what we both believed at the time was the alcoholism analogy. So, she wasn't entering into marriage with any expectation other than that I would struggle and fight to overcome this desire/behavior. She might expect some failure on my part, but she wouldn't expect that I would ask for her acceptance.
Bridget, part of me believes that Kaley is in my soul. But part of me doesn't. For so long I believed it was a fetish. An unfortunate behavioral association between sexual arousal and women's clothing. But I'm doubting this now. For one, I first had the desire to dress when I was 5 or 6. I even told my parents I wanted to be a girl. But I don't remember really wanting to be a girl after that. I think the sexual aspect was accidental and came later. Today, there is still sexual excitement sometimes, but when I'm dressed and out its not sexual at all. I don't understand it, honestly.
Fortunately, when I visit my mom's, it's for business travel, so it isn't as if I go there *just* to dress. So, I don't think going there will hurt our marriage.
Krisi -- I don't know if I'm bigender for sure. But I have always felt somewhere in between. I have a lot of traits typical of women. I'm musical, I love art and flowers, I'm emotional and sensitive, I'm talkative. I have a somewhat androgynous body-type that looks just as good in an evening gown as in a suit. I look awkward in men's t-shirts because of my thin frame. I have nice legs for a man. I have very long eyelashes, but a strong jawline as well. I score 50/50 on gender tests and my ring finger is the same length as my index finger (typical of women). I have small feet, etc, etc. I feel like it is more than just a hobby or a fetish. When I am dressed, I am a woman.

[rosetyler]

If your wife doesn't accept you for who you are, is she really the worlds best wife for you to be with? Both of you need to have lots of communication: open, honest, respectful, and direct. Each person may have to make compromises so that a happen medium can be met. Zero tolerance is no compromise.

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Hi Kaley

Your alcoholism analogy doesn't sound right to me. CD may be addicting but is not really harmful, except to some people's perceptions. When you say inherently/morally wrong, can you elaborate? Was that from a religious perspective? Some people's religious views are very rigid. Is it a deal breaker for her because of that?

This is part of you that is not going away. Maybe if you communicate that finality and the importance to you of being true to yourself (and no longer lying to her), she'll mellow in her views. If she is still holding on to the hope that you can "beat" this, she may not want to accept it.

Getting to DADT would be a win, but I would try to propose dressing in your own home, and use your mom's house as a fallback.

Best of luck to you

Shibumi

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Bridget, part of me believes that Kaley is in my soul. But part of me doesn't. For so long I believed it was a fetish. An unfortunate behavioral association between sexual arousal and women's clothing. But I'm doubting this now. For one, I first had the desire to dress when I was 5 or 6. I even told my parents I wanted to be a girl. But I don't remember really wanting to be a girl after that. I think the sexual aspect was accidental and came later. Today, there is still sexual excitement sometimes, but when I'm dressed and out its not sexual at all. I don't understand it, honestly.


Kaley,

Final thoughts from me on this thread.

It seems our paths have been very similar. Being en femme was never sexual for me either. As far as Kaley truly being in you soul I can't say either, but she is a part of your psyche. Identity in humans is a complex thing. Some aspects are, indeed, born with us (personality, temperament), others are a result of our choices (what job we have, marital situation). I know for me being Bridget was at one time a choice, but once that choice was made she found a way to becoming a part of who I am. I think there is a lot of merit to the notion of being bi-gendered. I like to think of it as ambigender (sort of like being ambidextrous). Some of us can easily switch between roles because we have good gender balance. I think all we really want is to allow the outside to reflect what we are feeling on the inside. All we've done is give a name to that feminine part of our brains.

You have certainly been given much to think about as you prepare for this important conversation. I wish you the best and let us know how it turns out.

One last hug,
Bridget

[Tina_gm]

To Launa, Imo... an almost busin essence or legal like way of going about this will likely cause more akwardness, discomfort and a greater emotional separation. I just wouldn't think this would be a good way to go in an active marriage. Not that agreements can't be or shouldn't be worked out, but in a more warm caring loving environment.

Kaley, some of what you are saying is only certain external traits. You are not a large muscular man, that's it. A woman who is 6 ft 2 isn't any less of a woman or less feminine. It only makes her taller than most.

One last thing, when dressing as a woman does not make you one. If you only feel feminine when dressing then you ere not ts, and likely not gender fluid. I do understand that it feels good, comfortable and all. I personally would take some time for both you and your wife to engage in good loving communication of the subject before trying to go Fwd to dressing with her or in public. I think both of you need time to get more comfortable and knowledgeable about it all.

[DanaR]

...........................I'm considering inviting my wife to meet with my therapist in a couples setting. Its a good idea.
You might run this by your therapist first. I had asked my therapist if she would do some couples counseling for us, she said no, because she was my therapist and it wouldn't be fair to my wife, because she was my therapist. So my wife asked her therapist and she said yes. Big mistake, while we were in our first couples session, her therapist started attacking me. When we left, my wife couldn't understand why she acted that way towards me. When we first showed up, her therapist was telling me what a great person my wife thought I was as was nothing but positive, until she turned and decided that I had an anger problem; which isn't the case at all. My wife had been seeing her for about a year, and she really helped her get through with some of her issues. My wife never went back to her after that.

[Tina_gm]

Dana, my wife and I have done some couples counseling. Setting up at the beginning that it would be couples counseling. At first, she met each of us individually. then after a couple of visits each, we then did the couples counseling. If it is set up that way, no problem, although there may be individual counseling sessions within the couples counseling. What happened to you though is not fair. And yes, some counselors do have motives and agendas. gender therapists and more typical general therapists. Sounds as if you found one that had an agenda against you after a long time with your wife.

My gender therapist was great, no agenda at all. He just helped in the beginning with the what, and some general oversight and coping mechanisms. Also was good with the big picture kinda thing which always clicks with me. My other therapist, was fine with the gender issues, believes in it, but we went for the whole shebang of issues pertaining to our marriage. Overall, while not having an agenda, we stopped going to her because she seemed to have more issues than we did, and was not consistent in our sessions.

[DanaR]

Dana, ..................... Setting up at the beginning that it would be couples counseling. At first, she met each of us individually. then after a couple of visits each, we then did the couples counseling. If it is set up that way, no problem, although there may be individual counseling sessions within the couples counseling. What happened to you though is not fair..........................
When we started going to a therapist, it was actually me going by myself because my wouldn't go. After I had gone for quite a while, my wife decided that she needed to talk to someone; which worked out well for her and helped us a lot. Thinking that if we had some couples counseling, it might help us more. We were able to talk through our issues on our own, but it would have been better talking to someone. My wife isn't really in to counseling very much.

I do agree, if you're thinking about couples counseling, set it up that way at the beginning.

[Stephanie47]

Kaley, I have to ask, "What went wrong? What changed?" In earlier posts way back in 2010 you indicated you and you're wife went to a Halloween Party or two "switched." If you told her before you and her were married, and, you have worn women's clothing with her...well...why did she agree to it in the first place?

You are very attractive in your pictures which include some out with the friends. It seems you're getting some significant outlet to express yourself. You say your wife is more important than cross dressing. I think you really need to sit down and find out the true nature of her resistance to you expanding your cross dressing. I have to say "expanding" because you appear to be able to explore your feminine side.

I'd be careful to push the envelope with your wife until you figure out just who you are. Perhaps you're wife sees you slipping away from her concept of gender roles.

[kaleyg]

Stephanie -- When we went to those parties, she was under the impression that I had my desires "under control" and that it was just harmless fun. She would never have done it if she thought I really enjoyed it. It was for a laugh. Of course, I did enjoy it A LOT.
As for my outings in recent years, she doesn't know anything about that.
If I have to figure out who I am first, I'm afraid I'll never get anywhere! I'm sure she worries about gender roles. I do too!
Dana -- good thoughts about couples therapy.
Gendermutt -- You make good points also. I was speaking figuratively about being a woman. : ) Height is not really a gender-associate trait, though men tend to be taller. But finger length is highly correlated with the amount of testosterone you were exposed to in the womb, which shapes brain and body development. Brains can be anywhere on a spectrum of masculine to feminine. But this can be unrelated to your sex. I'm all male genetically and in my sex organs, but I suspect I have a more "feminine" brain, maybe? I'm still figuring all this out.
I am wondering whether I should take more time with my therapist to get clear on my identity before I begin have serious talks with my wife. I'm leaning that way now.

[Tina_gm]

It would make sense and is sometimes the case that men who have feminine physical traits are sometimes feminine when it comes to how our brains are wired. I know of some men who are quite feminine physically yet masculine wired. And we have quite a few members here who speak of being well over 6ft and or built like a brick, yet have a more feminine wired brain.

My moniker is because both inside and out I am a mix of masculine and feminine. For me, it's not so much an identity I need to figure out, I basically have come to figure out I am a feminine person, yet male. I have identity that matches both masculine and feminine. My struggle is in appeasing it all. Both want the driver's seat. So it is that, along with the acceptance of myself that I have a strong feminine identity that demands time behind the wheel.

Having this does not in any way make me anything other than unique. I am no better or worse. I breathe the same air, like to eat, drink, I like intimacy.... like making and winning money. I am so unique yet so much like every other person. I am just a mixture, or mutt of gender.

[Kate T]

Kaley

I feel for you and I think you and your wife are doing really well under the circumstances.

I don't have any specific advice to offer. The only thing I can say is this. It is my opinion that whilst thought provoking, "guidance" or opinions on what is right and wrong from others (I mean counsellors, community leaders etc.) will not necessarily change your views or beliefs. That has to come from internally. This sword can cut both ways. On the one hand, if your wife personal beliefs are that she loves you no matter how you present then believe me, no one and nothing, R leader or doctrine, will break that belief. On the flip side though if your wife believes that what you have is some sort of addiction or illness then no opinion from any professional specialist or otherwise will sway her from that.

Peoples ideas and feelings can change. But it requires information. I think you need to enable your wife to access information as much as possible. Even help her access it. AND you need to be honest and lay yourself out before her figuratively speaking. You love her, that much is clear. She seems like a good person. I think the best way is to open yourself up, not knowing which way it will go. If she loves you as much as it seems then I suspect she won't accept immediately but it may open the door for more communication for her to learn a little more.

Paediatric Trans stories are a good way to demonstrate this is not an addiction. Louis Theroux recently did a special that I believe aired on BBC america on Trans kids. He has a knack of presenting things in a very non judgmental way without preaching. Also no mother will ever see a child in pain and not feel sympathy. If she can see the pain this causes those children then you have the opening to help her learn more.

[kaleyg]

Well, we had a long talk on Wed. morning, and I began to hint for the first time that my view on CDing might be changing -- moving toward seeing it as morally permissible and not in conflict with our "spiritual values". This frightened her. Her words at one point, regarding CDing, were "I hate it." She was red-eyed much of the time. But she was open to a few things: meeting as a couple with my therapist, me having an online chat with someone we both trust who is something of an expert on gender and spirituality, and reading articles or resources I might find online. My therapist has moved toward affirming me, and I think she senses this. Right now she just has this strong, visceral reaction to it that comes from decades of immersion in a certain kind of culture. And, honestly, some of that reaction is just human nature. Even open minded people are a little taken aback when confronted with a cross-dresser.

I'm wondering if, in her mind, she imagines this: I decide it is morally ok, then I start dressing up all the way. She doesn't see anything in between this, or that we could arrange a compromise or take it in baby-steps.

Does anyone know of a good resource, written by an affirming wife who has come from revulsion to acceptance? I've found lots of stuff written by CDers and by wives who just assume that acceptance is the only sane position. It would be good to hear from someone who is honest about their struggle and doubts and doesn't paint it as black and white.

[kimdl93]

It's a start...and a positive that she's willing to join you at the therapists office. It may reassure her to hear something objective about cross dressing and gender identity.

I wish I could offer some references...but I can't think of any that meet your requested criteria.

[avant1465]

Get her a copy of the book "My Husband Wears my Clothes"... which title we've seen on this site, previously. It is a sincere, well-thought-out discussion of a couple wherein the husband is a crossdresser... and how they learned about, discuss and address the "issue" of his crossdressing.....

In my opinion, IF your wife absorbs that book.... and STILL believes that there is - or will be - no change in her objection(s) to your C/D-ing.... THEN you need to sit down and think, real hard, if your marriage can't (and OUGHT NOT) survive. After all... despite your having not revealed this to her prior to marrying.... you NEED to make it a "condition" of YOUR continuing in that marriage.

Some things (attributes) are part of "who we are"... and we needn't spend our lives running away from them....

Good luck...

[michelleddg]

Well done on the long talk. Sounds like you're headed down a good path but, be assured, there will be rocky times ahead. Take the setbacks in stride, always remember the two of you are working towards common goals even if coming from different perspectives.

In addition to "My Husband Wears My Clothes" mentioned above, other respected titles include "My Husband Betty" and "She's Not the Man I Married: My Life with a Transgender Husband". All available on Amazon. Full disclosure - I haven't read any of them. However, you might want to read all 3 and present to your wife the ones that best help your relationship. Best of luck! Hugs, Michelle

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Reading between the lines here a bit, but it sounds like the conversation was as hard on you as her. Still, you did the right thing. I can't make any suggestions on resources fopr your wife beyond what has already been recommended. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss some of the spiritual side of things. I've had some interesting revelations on that front myself this week. Hang in there. Remember the three greatest things: faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love. As long as there is love between you two you will both get through this.

Hugs,
Bridget

[withasmile]

Hmm, she says she "hates it." Why? What part are you expecting her to play in your Crossdressing? Perhaps that is what you need to clarify? Are you expecting her to accompany you dressed on dates, shopping, out with mutual friends, to family events? She may simply be embarrassed, or you may challenge her very own sense of self, femininity and place in the world. How will she introduce you? This is my husband or....? She also may not find you attractive, by the way which she can't help. We are attracted to certain things about our mates, when you change yourself it can be challenging to keep interest and passion alive - even simply weight gain can be off putting for some, never mind a dress and heels.

I have another question for you that will make a huge difference in how your wife handles this. Aside from the CDing, are you a good partner? What would she say if you asked her that question? Crossdressing doesn't have to be the end of the world, can be fun and just an extra element that makes up your relationship, or it can be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Good luck

[Rosaliy Lynne]

a lot of good comments have been posted and I will try not to repeat them.
I have been 3 times divorced. My first never knew but the divorce came because she kept running home to mother.
My second knew and we incorporated that in the bedroom for a while till she decided she didn't like it. She had 3 affairs that I know of and even seduced a gf of mine after she had started her second affair with a mutual friend. She later replaced me with a man she met on the net. That divorce was inevitable. My last was also inevitable for various reasons. I knew she would not accept me because she was upset with my Witch Halloween Costume - 2 years in a row. Ultimately that was not the cause of the divorce. Her kids from prior marriage were more important than our marriage. Additionally, knowing her mind on the matter, I could not have admitted it to her.

The long and the short of it is: you need to get some kind of dialog going even if you need a counselor to be with you for the discussion. I know that you can't stop dressing. I tried and was only successful at putting it off for a time. It is internal to who you are and THAT has to be part of any discussion.

I had resolved, after this last divorce, that anyone who got close enough to me to be worth keeping, HAD to know up front ALL about me. Since I started living as ME - this new person - Rosaliy - I have become more patient as well as more outgoing and NOW I find myself very much in love with another tgirl. Go figure.

Sooner or later you have to reach some decisions vis-a-vis dressing and marriage. A beneficial compromise can save it. A rigid ALL or NOTHING stance on either part will kill it. I wish you all the luck in resolving this favorably.

[kaleyg]

Great advice everyone! This really helps -- thank you! I may try to read "My Husband Wears My Clothes" and see if it would be good to pass along. My therapist also recommended this, thought I don't think she realizes how hard this is for my wife.
Btw, I did tell her before we married, but it was more along the line of telling someone you are a recovering alcoholic.

[Kate T]

My Husband Wears My clothes is a good book in terms of it is quite objective, quite a few different stories. My wife and I found it quite impersonal though and you never really got a feeling of going on a journey with anyone in the book.
My husband Betty is good, Helen Boyd does not deny or shy away from her catholic upbringing or beliefs, BUT.... Betty has now transitioned and in the absence of ANY knowledge this can just reinforce the old stereotype that all CD's eventually transition so may not be the best for your wife. As a side note Helen and Betty are still happily married.

I haven't seen it but apparently the Bruce Jenner interview was done very well though with some emphasis towards the transexual side of things. May be worth a look.

[TrishaTX]

You have to be honest with yourself and her. I too tried to stop a few times and love my wife to death. I am less of a go out a dress girl and more of a slip in the bedroom type of gal. After I came clean, I slowly started the introduction process and so far its been ok. No wigs allowed and a few other rules. Therapy is the key to everything I think...it is a necessity.
I am very masculine outside the bedroom and often make sure I fill her needs but sometimes I just need this. Compromise with someone you love is always necessary. Keep plugging away and trying ...it is too easy to just leave someone today harder to at least try to work it out...if you need to chat you can always email me

[Dana3]

Me, myself and I? I DON'T do threats, ultimatums, blackmail. There's no "Clean-Point" to which to arrive at? There's no "Win-Win" situation that can come of it, and once you give in to it, its a slow steady decent into Hell. Hell for the person that has been given the ultimatum, the threat, or blackmail.

Indeed if you threaten me with such, its going to backfire on you each and every time, as I will be the ONE who makes the very threat you pose upon to me and to me a REALITY! If you threaten me with exposure, divorce, separation, etc...........

I'm going to turn your words into a reality beyond your wildest dreams and imagination. And its NOT going to pretty, its NOT going to be fun, and its going to hit you quick, fast and a in a hurry like!

I'm NOT one to be trifled with. I DON'T come with dice! So don't play with me! Because your only going to get hurt in the short, mid and long run.

Tell everyone I'm "T"?

Bring it!

You can't lose something you've never had to begin with!

You can't lose something you've never lost to begin with!

You can't lose something that isn't yours!