Crossdressing, a subversive act?

[Danitgirl1]

Hi all
I have been thinking about the dynamics of crossdressing.
It seems to me that:
Many crossdressers dress in ways that accentuate feminine characteristics (big breasts, short skirts, tight clothes etc)
This is done by both those attracted to men and those attracted to women
We are not (in the main) insane or delusional
We do not expect to attract a sexual mate (of either sex) through our dressing

Women dress in very similar ways to crossdressers (well we do get our clothes at the same places don't we)
Not all women dress the way they do to attract sexual partners

Therefore the way one dresses is NOT linked to a desire to attract sexual partners, rather dressing is an expression of an inner sense of the aesthetic.

Society (broadly) sees clothing as inextricably linked to sexual attractiveness: girls in schools are told to cover up, women are seen as desirable based on what they are wearing, women are blamed for being too sexual if they are raped etc.
Society also sees men as being the active sexual partner, pursuing women and women as the passive partner seeking to attract a mate.

This is perhaps why crossdressing is such a big societal taboo: it subverts the established gender dynamic.

My view is that this is a good thing. The more we can do to change this anachronistic idea the better. Society needs to realise that clothes are expressive of an identity or way of feeling and not an invitation for sex. I am happy to play my part.
I am also happy to just wear my heels and feel beautiful.

What do you all think?

[AbigailJordan]

I think you're right to a degree Dani.. but I think it goes further than even that..

I think that the general hetero majority in the world is fearful of not having an easy outward indicator of gender. They fear feeling an attraction to a woman only to find out they've just been drooling over one of us. It's like crossdressing is viewed as some kind of trick to challenge their sexuality.

As for playing our part, I spent the afternoon yesterday socialising with friends wearing a collection london jumpsuit, gemstone earrings, rings and bracelets.. no makeup or hair etc, just pushing the boundaries of "acceptable dress" for a guy. every day more and more of my wardrobe makes it into my "wearable as a guy" section.. It used to be plain black pants and jumpers, now it has tight jeans, sparkly tops and half my jewellery collection.

I cannot wait for the day that society allows a dress to make it into that section.

[Kate Simmons]

I tend to agree with you Dani but I no longer think about it too much. I just dress up and have fun with it.:battingeyelashes::)

[Rhanda]

Abigail, I agree.

Rhanda

[Lily Catherine]

I definitely concur with Dani that at least some of us (myself included) dress in ways directly tied to our sense of aesthetics. That said, I don't feel like I'm attempting to blur lines as I do not maintain a truly androgynous appearance. (Most of it is the hair; I could easily wear women's jackets and trousers while presenting as male.)

Even though I don't consider it causative, there are definitely too many unnecessary, if misplaced, sexual connotations to (specifically female) clothing - think short skirts, corsets, stockings, matching lingerie etc. - to a point where they become sexualized in themselves independent of intention. Even though I love to wear very short skirts when dressed at home, I dare not do so when I dress to the vanilla world for this very reason.

Maybe it's easier to be outside looking in as well; men's clothing doesn't seem to hold the same level of sexualization in modern society as of now.


They fear feeling an attraction to a woman only to find out they've just been drooling over one of us.

Ironic as it is, I've been there. Even on this very site.

[shena]

I think that advertising has had an effect on us all. Gender roles. What is masculine/feminine. For the most part we agree. Myself included.

I entered the counter culture as a punker in highschool. Its become a lifestyle, and one i cherish. I derive much of my " in your face" attitude from this. As of late, many of the styles and representatives of my underground upbringing have become semi mainstream. Sexual deviance and the lifestyle associated with it seem to be one of the true bastions of anti social behavior. I love it.

When i became aware of my desires any thought of scocial acceptance was dissmissed. I live my life for me. My kinks, how i use them, and what i get out of it is purely selfish. Knowing that my actions are out of the norm is no longer coincidence, its my style.

Back to advertising.....much of what i wear is sexually subversive.

Great topic!

[docrobbysherry]

Speak for yourself, Daniella. As I will. I find dressing in private can be quite sexy. Sex is involved in my dressing. And, I'm not alone in that!:o

Further, I'll admit to being sort of a sexist. As such I often try to appear to be a sexy female. Someone I find attractive. I'm not trying to attract other men. Only one man, ME! But, I have unintentionally attracted others when out.:eek:

I think if your argument is that CD's r not trying to look attractive, that may be true for some but ceertainly not all of us!:battingeyelashes:

[Sarah Doepner]

Crossdressing is subversive. Gender identity is just about the most basic unit in society and we are pointing out they are not what most people believe it is. The only reason I can really think that men sometimes become unhinged around crossdressers is it undermines the one aspect of their personality that they have come to trust and base their lives on. When people attack your foundation it is disturbing, it is unexpected and it forces you to either defend it or redefine it. We have a society that has placed a lot of value throughout life in filling gender roles and crossdressers are subverting that training.

Viva la revolution!

[Amy Lynn3]

Dani, I think your views has some merits and as others have spoken, they have views of their own. On a personal basis, my objective when I dress is to look like the most beautiful woman in the world. Never gonna happen, but that is one of my desires. Another desire of attraction is the cloths. They have a hold on me, like nothing else ever has. Oh, the feeling of being dressed has me spell bound.

Social taboo is something I agree with you about. Society has established the norm and cding in the eyes of society is not normal. I think we all would disagree with that, but it is what it is.

I think a little survey I am running proves what I just last said. I have ask a good number of straight women on dating sites if it is okay for women to wear male cloths out in public is the standard not the same for a man. I go on to explain if a man wears a dress in public is it not the same and if not, is that not a double standard ? WOW! Some of the answers I got have been a resounding NO, it is not the same standard. Most have no clue what crossdressing is all about in the first place and say things like...if a man likes to wear female cloths he has identity issues, so he is classed not normal.

We see that played out in many post on this site. Men have been great fathers, husbands and providers for 20 or 30 years, but let him put on a dress and all of a sudden he is not normal anymore. The wearing of a dress does not change the man, but the image society has ingrained into others makes them view him, as not being normal anymore.

This train of thought could go on forever, but I hope you get my point on this.:battingeyelashes:

[Danitgirl1]

Speak for yourself, Daniella. As I will. I find dressing in private can be quite sexy. Sex is involved in my dressing. And, I'm not alone in that!:o

Further, I'll admit to being sort of a sexist. As such I often try to appear to be a sexy female. Someone I find attractive. I'm not trying to attract other men. Only one man, ME! But, I have unintentionally attracted others when out.:eek:

I think if your argument is that CD's r not trying to look attractive, that may be true for some but ceertainly not all of us!:battingeyelashes:

Please have a look at my blog post on this subject. You will see that I do not deny the sexual-ness of crossdressing. It is inherently linked to sex and sexuality if for no other reasonthan that society lnks it.
Of course if you dress for sexual reasons that is also cool, but society is wrong to equate the way someone(anyone) dresses with their desire to attract a sexual partner. Just because society equates the acts does not mean they are the same.
This is not the same as denying anyone (whether male, female, crossdresser, transexuak or whatever) their sexuality.

[pamela7]

of course its subversive, for those of us with subversive agendas, like me! I enjoy the jaw-dropped, open-mouthed, speechlessness of those who are dumfounded, and yet also delighted, like "yes, why not?"!

low-cut dress + hairy chest + pink sox + sandals = "WTF???"

[ReineD]

Many crossdressers dress in ways that accentuate feminine characteristics (big breasts, short skirts, tight clothes etc)


Women dress in very similar ways to crossdressers (well we do get our clothes at the same places don't we)
Not all women dress the way they do to attract sexual partners

I disagree that women dress in similar ways to crossdressers, in terms of the percentage of women who dress provocatively compared to the percentage of crossdressers who do the same.

You also need to place this in context. Where do all these people wear the sexy clothes?

I agree with you that not all women dress provocatively. In fact I'd say that a small percentage of women dress provocatively. A common sense verification of this is to just sit on a bench at your local mall, or go to your local grocery store. Also, it is true that not all crossdressers wear the big breast forms, the short skirts, tight clothes, and stilettos. Looking at the pictures in the Gallery will confirm this.

So let's compare the women who do dress provocatively to the CDers who do the same.

In my world (and although there are always exceptions), women generally dress sexy when there are males present. Examples of these places are parties, clubs, bars, or when these women are on dates, especially if they are single. Women who get together to have a girl's night, whether they go to a restaurant or get together for example at cosmetics or tupperware parties or they just hang out together watching a movie and eating pizza, do not dress with short skirts, tight clothes, and stiletto heels. Crossdressers who get together to hang out, do.

Also, (some) crossdressers will dress more provocatively than women just to go out to day-to-day places. And certainly, crossdressers take a great deal more pictures of themselves dressed provocatively than women do.

I do think that the motive for wearing sexy clothes might be different for women and crossdressers. Women generally do so to be attractive to the opposite sex. But I wonder if crossdressers do so to be attractive to themselves, since appearing as a sexy woman (for those who do this) appeals to their very visual male sensibilities. It's nice to say that everyone dresses to express their own aesthetics, but the question is, what drives this sense of aesthetics.

[CynthiaD]

Crossdressing as subversion? Now that sounds like fun! Like something right out of the 1960's! We could do all kinds of yippie stuff like have "happenings" where you have to wear a dress to get in, or crash political rallies and streak through in our gold-lame dresses. We could hold "boob-ins" where we put on our forms and strut around in high heels. We could march on Washington chanting, "Hell yes, I'll wear a dress!" If we cause enough trouble we might even get the subversive's ultimate badge of honor: being called before the House Unmasculine Affairs Committee!" Oh that's right HUAC was dissolved years ago. Well, it doesn't matter. Sign me up anyway!

[Jenniferathome]

I disagree that women dress in similar ways to crossdressers, ...

You beat me to it Reine! Another cross dresser's wishful thinking.

[Beverley Sims]

An interesting take on the subject, something you could argue about forever.

Same as, why do we do it? :)

[Tracii G]

I think people read too much into the hows and why of it all.
Trying to figure it all out just makes a person over analyze everything.
Just have fun and let things work themselves out.

[Sand101]

I agree 100 percent with you.

[Sand101]

Dani you have a great blog spot.

[Danitgirl1]

I think people read too much into the hows and why of it all.
Trying to figure it all out just makes a person over analyze everything.
Just have fun and let things work themselves out.

Good point, hence my last line: 'I am also happy to just wear my heels and feel beautiful.'

But sadly I am a very analytical person...
:brolleyes:


I disagree that women dress in similar ways to crossdressers, in terms of the percentage of women who dress provocatively compared to the percentage of crossdressers who do the same.

You also need to place this in context. Where do all these people wear the sexy clothes?

Yes, of course people are individuals and no one analysis will fit all. Also I think women are more likely to have been socialised into accepting the paradigm of 'looking good = wanting to attract a sexual partner'. But I still maintain this is not a universal truth. Plenty of women (and crossdressers) dress well and look attractive without necessarily wanting to attract a sexual partner (think monogamous women, celibate women etc). Some who may want to look good, may also actively dress down to avoid this stigma as well. But your point is well made.



I agree with you that not all women dress provocatively. In fact I'd say that a small percentage of women dress provocatively. A common sense verification of this is to just sit on a bench at your local mall, or go to your local grocery store. Also, it is true that not all crossdressers wear the big breast forms, the short skirts, tight clothes, and stilettos. Looking at the pictures in the Gallery will confirm this.

Yes agreed. I would also say 'provocatively' is a subjective term. In my blog I pointed out that I was using it broadly to mean anything that provokes a response (as in a second look). This does not necessarily mean overtly sexual.

Thanks for your inputs. My wife also took issue with some of the assumptions I made and they are broadly in line with your comments. I think it is good to discuss these issues and I enjoy the engagement.

[Sarah-RT]

Ive heard a lot of women say that they often dress for themselves or to feel good about themselves, not just for attracting men.
I'd be the same, being straight for a start but also to dress fashionably and comfortably. I don't go in for short skirts or lingerie anymore. I dress the style of the girls my age which seems mostly to be tees, jeans, cardigans and flats.

I do like dresses and heels but I either can't afford a suitable size or my male features ruin the illusion and defeats the purpose of being comfortable.

So I agree completely with what you are saying, it's not all about sex. I've found myself lately looking at some girls and being attracted to them while others I'm just admiring their outfits and trying to remember it so I can copy it.

I have that feeling if you were to approach a random girl and compliment her outfit she would see it as an advance rather than a conversation about style, it makes me think it'd be easier to tell them you were gay so you didn't seem "threatening"

[Samantha Clark]

I don't dress to try to change society, even though crossdressing does subvert the heteronormative gender binary paradigm. I dress merely to explore and express this feminine side of my nature. I want to feel good about myself, and I like to feel pretty.

It would be great to start a revolution (Hell yes, I wear a dress!), but I'm still at the point of discovering myself and getting to be comfortable with the Brenda in me. I don't need to change the world I just need to find inner peace.

---
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
---

[melanie206]

Very interesting thread. Not sure about when our dressing is sexual and when it isn't. But one item mentioned by the OP causes me to wonder about why so many people almost instinctively reject us. Does it threaten their own sense of sexual identity? Or is it just some peoples general fear of the "other". I don't go out in the actual public so haven't experienced ordinary peoples' reactions first hand. However, some one I work with is transistioning and the reactions of some of the men have been very uncharitable and phobic. As a closet TG I paid close attention.

[Katey888]

Interesting thoughts Dani - you need feel no shame for being prepared to think about, talk about and analyse this thing we share... :)


Many crossdressers dress in ways that accentuate feminine characteristics (big breasts, short skirts, tight clothes etc)

But many don't... however, I'd support a broadening of this to say that many of us do dress in ways that simply emulate feminine characteristics and styles that we find attractive. I think this is more than just a desire to be seen as attractive; we're sometimes emulating aspects of femininity that are deeply desirable to some of us and may also be triggering some subtle sexual cues that are not about attracting anyone - it's more about satisfying our own preferences in what we find to be sexually stimulating in a woman's appearance.


Women dress in very similar ways to crossdressers (well we do get our clothes at the same places don't we)

On the whole I'd agree with this, for CDers of a type... because one of the issues we always face here is: just what sort of CDer do you mean? We have everything from full femulation to partial dressers, androgynous dressers, event dressers... but within bounds, most of those that go out tend to dress appropriately for the venue or environment - which is why I slightly disagree with this:


I disagree that women dress in similar ways to crossdressers, in terms of the percentage of women who dress provocatively compared to the percentage of crossdressers who do the same.
You also need to place this in context. Where do all these people wear the sexy clothes?

I think we see the most provocative dressing here done at home (or closet) or for clubs and events - I get the impression that most who go to the mall may dress for the mall, even though they may be seen as more 'dressy' than usual. Yes, there are also doubtless some thrill-seekers that 'dress nice' and then go for a walk or drive at 3 am... I don't think Dani was including all categories in the idea that we dress 'similar'. Do we (in general) dress more flamboyantly and younger than women of an equivalent age? Yes - I'd agree we do... us oldies must be making up for lost time somewhere, but younger women do this too - it is very environment related and we cover a vast range of cultures and environments here from Dani in SA, folk in cities (generally MUCH more cosmopolitan and fashionable) and folk in the boonies (MUCH more provincial). This is too much like implying that every GG out there is dressed tastefully: it's simply not the case.

Are we subverting the established gender dynamic? Absolutely I believe we are. But that isn't the reason that most of us do what we do... I don't believe many of us are radicalised CDers, actively wanting to subvert societal gender norms - nor could we if we wanted to - we're just too few! But it's subversive from a PoV of just wanting to look like the gender we're not, and then putting so much effort into doing that AND being prepared to take the results public, when none of us can really offer a good explanation 'why' we feel a need to do it... doesn't that make it subversive and a little nutty? :)

Throw in the aspect of sexuality as well (whether that's us just feeling sexy for ourselves, or hoping to have that view affirmed by anyone else...) and it's easy to see why we would be seen as doubly subversive. Don't forget also, that this forum represents a quite different cross-section of the CD community than would be represented if we did include all of the other sites and scenes... Our little club here might well be more predisposed to champion "an expression of an inner sense of the aesthetic", I'd agree with you on that too, but the other facets of the community are perhaps a little more visceral in their expression, and I have a feeling they probably outnumber us substantially and so do confirm the popular stereotypes of 'trannies and traps'.

I'm more ambivalent about whether anything we do really changes anything or whether it's a 'good thing' - I still really don't think we change the world much as individuals - we're just an anomalous blip on a muggles' radar screen for a brief period and then the world returns to normal... I think we read too much into politeness and restraint of others and the relative importance and impact of the events on ourselves and what we experience. :thinking:

Katey x

[Tracii G]

[QUOTE=Brenda.Clark;3736322]I don't dress to try to change society, even though crossdressing does subvert the heteronormative gender binary paradigm.

Wow trying to sound all lofty and scientific.LOL
I find people that use terms like that are the ones afraid to call it what it is "crossdressing".

[Teresa]

Dani,
My Cding is based on a need to share it with a partner/wife strangely how I would choose to dress doesn't seam so important, maybe just stockings and suspenders but no big boobs or makeup !
Yes I enjoy fully dressing but not to attract my wife and as I'm hetro not to attract a male partner ! My dressing still has sexual contents and I can see why I think I fit in the Autogynerphilia box ( Transvestic ) which means I love myself as a woman !
I try and keep my shape right without padding so no huge breasts but will confess to wearing short skirts and heels, what else would you shave your legs for ?

Whether it's subversive or not Cding will never be fully understood ! Why does a man want to wear women's clothes ? I don't feel I'm making some grand statement, or subverting society ! It's something in my head that won't go away and when accepted is enjoyable, it's up to us how we slot it in our lives and the people around us !

[Samantha Clark]

(Brenda said: I don't dress to try to change society, even though crossdressing does subvert the heteronormative gender binary paradigm. )

Then you said:
Wow trying to sound all lofty and scientific.LOL
I find people that use terms like that are the ones afraid to call it what it is "crossdressing".

Nope, just repeating terms I hear from my daughter (always pointed at me in an accusatory manner, as in "you are so ...")(if she only knew), after she took gender studies classes at college! :D

[flatlander_48]

Personally, I would not use the word Subversive. To me there is always the active quality associated with it. It would seem to be quite difficult to be passively or unconsciously subversive. When we dress, the vast majority of us are not trying to be actively subversive. We're just trying to spend some time living as our alter ego; no more, no less.

Anyway, whatever happens to established gender constructs is largely independent of what we, as crossdressers, might do. If we did attempt to bring about an adjustment to how society is structured, we would still have the problem of critical mass. We would need many more people in public in order to make a statement and I just don't see that happening.

DeeAnn

[Tracii G]

Brenda it sounds like her teachers are filling the students heads with terms that sound sooo intellectual.LOL
People that don't do teach ha ha.

[LucyNewport]

Subversion isn't my prime motivation, but it's a nice side effect. I just want to be pretty! If it means making closed minded people uncomfortable then that is their issue, not mine. Never be scared to be weird, I say!