Question for CDers and their SO's only, no TSs please.

[ReineD]

(To the GGs ... what do you think your husbands/boyfriends would choose, or any other thoughts you may have.)


So ... how many of you would choose to start taking hormones, get breast enhancement surgery if the hormones didn't produce large enough breasts, get facial feminization surgery, change your name legally to that of a woman's and all your other gender markers, and start living as a woman full time. In this scenario, SRS is optional, but remember that taking hormones produces the same effect eventually, which is a [-]complete loss of sexual functioning[/-] partial to complete loss of male sexual functioning.

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING TWO PARAGRAPHS BELOW, THERE ARE CONDITIONS:

1. There is NO going back and forth, this would be a permanent change to living as a feminized version of who you are now. Please, no "I'd take the boobs but forego changing my name and I'd only take as many hormones to make my skin softer and not lose sexual functioning". It doesn't work that way.

2. Keep in mind, this is not a magical "how do you imagine your lives living as a woman" question, with a mind's eye image of a young, beautiful woman. The premise is that you still retain your age, your hair pattern growth, your basic body structure which would not change with all the surgeries (height, shoulder width, feet and hand size, facial width, neck size, ear size, etc). You would also keep your current work situations, your current families, you would still live in the same neighborhoods. And you would not be stealth afterwards, most people would not immediately take it you were a genetic female ... it would be apparent (as is the norm) that you were a former man who transitioned (like Bruce Jenner).

So, this is pretty much a yes or no question. Given the above, how many crosssdressers in this forum would go for it?

Thanks! :)


Edit Note 5/2/15

I've edited my first paragraph above (see strikethrough), to be more precise. Complete loss is not in the cards for everyone.

See this thread: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?227399-hormones-and-functionality

[Laura28]

I would love to have larger breast for real but i would never transistion. To much at stake in my life with family friends and job.

[AmandaM]

I would not do it. I have transient TS feelings. Sometimes they are very strong. But I can't see myself doing it unless I could be passable and/or a "young, beautiful woman" as you have stated. I look at Bruce Jenner and no, I couldn't be inbetween sexes. I'd rather just stay a man.

[Nadine Spirit]

Nope. Wouldn't do it.

While I would probably like to be more in the middle of the gender spectrum than I am physically now, there is no way I would transition

[JennyTV]

Absolutely not.

My brain functions as a strange mix of the feminine and the masculine. Some days I wake up and can't get a bra and skirt on fast enough. Other days I go no farther than panties (I wear panties 24/7) to the feminine side. Just like I can't handle wearing masculine clothing all the time, I wouldn't be able to handle wearing feminine clothing all the time either. It's just who I am.

Jen

[char GG]

Good post, Reine.

I think that my SO would remain a man.

[Victoria Demeanor]

No......no thanks

[kimdl93]

I honestly do not know. At this point in my life, I doubt that I would consider HRT, SRS or FFS. But I would consider living close to full time...without making any such changes. I know of several people who do live full time as women without any of the above.

That wasn't a yes or no answer, was it.

[UNDERDRESSER]

No, not for me. At the moment, I'm not all that fired up with doing a full on dress up.

[Jamie Lynn]

Couldn't do it either, as much as I'd like to. Been on this planet as a male too long with too many friends, business relationships, decent job, great wife and kids to change now. And I agree with Amanda, I'd want there to be no mistaking my gender.

[justmetoo]

in a word, no.

[alwayshave]

Reine, no way. I'm a crossdresser and I have had dreams where I am a women, but thinking about it, I like my life as a man, but sometimes just want to feel pretty.

[AnotherSarah]

Absolutely No!

[Dana44]

Reine, No, I am a CD and like the femme time. Yet I'm a male and will stay that way. Bigger boobs would be fine, only a bit bigger. And yeah, since I'm a DES son, I get enough estrogen though foods and the environment that gives me a solid B size. It is important to me to keep my sexual function operating and maintain it.

[LucyNewport]

If I knew that my wife wouldn't kick me out or hate me for all eternity, I'd be sorely tempted. Her opinion is the only one that matters to me. We've discussed what she will and won't put up with and permanent body mods are a bridge too far.

[Sometimes Steffi]

None of the above.

While I occasionally want to look like a girl on the outside, and do the best job I can at it, I don't feel like a girl on the inside.

I would like to shave my hands, arms, legs and chest, get laser for my face and pierce my ears, I think any one of those things would get me kicked out of the house by my wife, so I wouldn't do them now.

[Chrissi]

Hi Reine,

Yes, I would and am seriously considering hormones, I would not mind being flat chested, but FFS is a real consideration, as well as living full time, and of course a legal name change. I feel that I am headed in that direction regardless, so I am not sure I qualify for your criteria.

Chrissi

[Curiosity666]

Never. I am a male, and I love being a male. On the odd occasion, I enjoy looking like a woman, but to me, it's still a charade. I'm just a guy having some fun in cute dresses and heels.

[Barbara Dugan]

I made the decision to do it, then is yes

[DonnaT]

I reckon a simple "no" is too short to post.

No

[mykell]

hello Reine,
interesting but no, loss of sexual function, not for me...who would sign up for that.....let me know if the rules change....

[Jean 103]

Yes, I have already started doing some things, not sure you’re allowed to talk about it here. Would not a yes answer make you a TS, Where is the line? At this point it is finances holding me back from being 24/7.

[Jenniferathome]

Not even remotely appealing. I'm a dude.

[Stephanie A]

I would love to become more feminine physically, like bigger breasts, but my nature is more cautious and timid so answer is no. Wow what a question! Still have too many male things and responsibilities in my life so not ready to make such a big change. But wow!

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Reine,
My SO has asked me if I am on, or if I want to be on HRT many times.
Every time, without question, I answer her with " No, I don't want, or need it".
Transition is not for me!
Much Love,
Kristyn

[JennyTV]

...since I'm a DES son...

Dana,

I think you're the only other person I've seen here that has mentioned DES. I would love to catch up and trade notes. I think I fall into that category, but both my mother and her doctor have passed away, so I'm not sure I'll ever know for sure, but I've got all the signs.

Jen

[Jenniferathome]

Good post, Reine.

I think that my SO would remain a man.

To me, this is the answer that all cross dressers need to read and digest. While we may "know" that we will not do x, y, or z. Our wives can never be so certain. Always worth a discussion, I think.

[Dana44]

Jen, hey PM me and we will talk. Yeah I have two sisters, the girls seemed to get the worst of it. That was synthetic estrogen and it sure did a number on all of us.

[AussieJess]

I'm a dude in a dress. A feminine male. Hell, the name "Jess" is only used here, and then only for anonymity.
I've thought a lot about how far i want to take this and what feels right, since coming out. And I think I am happy as me. I use moisturizers, to soften my already soft skin. I maintain my facial hair.

Lol, I just really LOVE dress ups! And twirling, and how a skirt feels, and a bra, and stockings... <3<3

[Dannigirl]

nope. not for me thanks

[ReluctantDebutant]

Not for all the tea in China.

[AmyGaleRT]

Reine, that's a tough question. I can say that, if it weren't for the wishes of my fiancee (who still wants "her man" in her life), I would be sorely tempted to say "yes." I'm definitely curious as to what being on hormones would feel like...but I'm also smart enough to know that you don't want to goof around with your body chemistry like that just for the sake of "curiosity." I do think I could handle being full-time; "The Nine Days of Amy" proved that to me. And I would be fine with looking pretty much how I look now as Amy; people have told me I make a beautiful woman.

- Amy

[Teresa]

Reine,
Before taking any medication I'd seek gender assessment. I can't answer if any drugs could settle my mind, if dressing full time did that instead I would probably go for it , otherwise I'd stay as I am !
As for losing the sexual element I guess not, it's how it started for me and keeps me going now otherwise I don't know where I would be with my CDing !

[DanaR]

My wife and I have talked about this before. I would probably transition, how far I don't know. But, I've been in a long term relationship and wouldn't do that to my wife. She has learned about me over the years, as I have myself. She has been really patient and understanding. I can dress as much as I would like, she just doesn't want me to dress everyday; which I don't.

[Dana3]

No! I'm more interested in accepting and achieving a balance between my masculine and feminine personas and being able and free to express the same as I currently am to reach and achieve the totality of who I am.

[weyburn]

A resounding YES

[Michelle (Oz)]

I honestly do not know. At this point in my life, I doubt that I would consider HRT, SRS or FFS. But I would consider living close to full time...without making any such changes.
I'm somewhere near Kim on this. Although it would take an SO attitudinal miracle, I would live closer to full time without making the changes.

[pamela7]

No.
However, if we're allowed that? I experience chronic testicular pain, considering extreme solution to it, and would then have to take hormone subs, at which point i'd go direct estrogen not testosterone. I'd keep my penis, live as eunuch as such, then, and allow the boobs to grow. While i intensely dislike shaving i don't think i'd do the removal.

[trisha kobichenko]

No, wouldn't transition, and have never seriously considered it. I enjoy my male side...I enjoy my female side, and am fortunate enuff to have an SO who accepts and appreciates both. I dress as a woman about half the time, male half the time. I don't try to pass...It's who I am at home, mostly.
Trish

[charlenesomeone]

I guess I'll go against the tide and say yes. In part 2 of your question, it seems keeping the
same location and social situations is near impossible unless society changes.

[Claire Cook]

Reine,

Most of us have probably thought about this, some a little bit and some a lot. I certainly have. While I do all I can to help my female presentation, and a good part of my brain thinks "female", it's no for me. I seem to manage quite well when I'm out and about. But I enjoy my male side, and enjoy my marriage too much to think about changing.

[Lee Andrews]

No way, no how. I'm a guy, like being a guy. I just happen to like dressing up every now and then.

Have I ever wondered what being a true woman is like? Sure but that's just fantasy.

[Katey888]

I'm sorry Reine - I don't think this is a question but a self-fulfilling prophesy...

All those who identify as 'just a crossdresser' will reply no.

The 'in-betweeners' - those who crossdress and who strongly consider transition and/or living 24/7 - will reply maybe or yes

Those who are already TS are nominally excluded... soooo...

Was your intention just to 'out' the inbetweenies, or confirm a distinction between crossdressers and transsexuals that most of us are probably already aware of and agree on...??? Just curious... :thinking:

For me? The temporarily non-dressing crossdresser... no - of course not. :)

Katey x

[Andrea Renea]

Nope, happy where I m at.

[Kate Simmons]

I'm comfortable with who I am now, so the answer would be no. Forty years ago it would have been a different story. :)

[EllenJo]

Nope, not happening. I am happy just being a crossdresser and lucky enough to have an understanding wife. I'm good.
Hugs
Ellen Jo

[NicoleScott]

No, I'm just a guy who likes to dress up. I don't see how anyone could answer "yes", given the qualifiers.

[Marcia Blue]

Reine,

I am in the "no" camp. I enjoy all the duality just as I am.

[donnaS]

If I had the funding,yes, I would.
Not sure how the SO would take it. Don't care what people would think. I want to be happy. I am happy now, but That would be the ultimate thing for me.

[audreyinalbany]

Something thats never even been on my radar. A BIG "Nope".

[jeank]

A definite no for me.

[Meghan4now]

Reine

Great description of the reality of transition for CDS in the fog. I agree with Katey.

I may wonder or even fantasize about it, but I know the difference of real life. Mostly. So, No.

Of course, now I am interested in why you asked the question, and in such a very specific manner.

[Stephanie_CD_64]

Reine,

No.

I often dream of having bigger boobs, but that is it. I am a man who loves to wear heels and sexy underwear. That's all I am.

I like my 'real man' life. I could never pass with any amount of surgery. Why try?

I'll remain a happy crossdresser.

[Laura912]

After hours of vacillation, the answer is no.

[Jessica S]

That would be a No for me also. Just a guy that likes to dress up.

[Linda E. Woodworth]

NO

That isn't the road I'm traveling. For me it's all about the clothes.

[Princess Chantal]

Nope, having too much fun keeping the crossdressing sessions only on positive aspects of life

[maya1love]

Nope, I like being a feminine man who dresses up on occasion. My pleasure is in dressing up and the transformation an illusion process from boy to girl.

[claire1d]

Traveling back in time, 30 years ago, it is a simple question with a complicated answer:
If I could understand why I want to dress as a women, want to have a women body, have dreamed about it for a long time AND on the other end why I do not resent at all my life as a man, I might have been able to answer that question.

Today it is a very complicated question with a simpler answer:
I would not transition but would like to be more "in the middle of the gender spectrum", as Nadine mentioned.

[sometimes_miss]

I would not do it. I have transient TS feelings. Sometimes they are very strong. But I can't see myself doing it unless I could be passable and/or a "young, beautiful woman
My only difference from that, would be that I'd be o.k.with just being a young average woman; sure, being beautiful would make it easier to take, but it's not really necessary. Most women can be quite attractive; make up, hair, stay in shape, pick the right clothes, you don't have to be '10' beautiful, I think it's just most women's wanting to be attractive to a particular guy who doesn't find her attractive that makes her want to look different.
However, the advantages of being female are in the younger years, even if girls don't realize it or take advantage of it. A young, smart, pretty woman can have the world at her feet easier than a guy can.

But as an old person? I don't think it really makes much difference. Given the choice of being a homely old man or a homely old lady; neither is a good option. So there's really no incentive to change.

[Bluesman]

Very simple answer: NO.

[Georgia_Maine]

No, not me. I'd like to dress more often 'though. Maybe 75% male time and 25% female.

[JoanneB]

Very simply-no.

[Chris_Cross]

Absolutely no. Very happy being a man.

[Cheryl T]

Firstly, in my case hormones are never going to be in my future no matter what as they would be contraindicated owing to my heart medications.
Secondly, when I came out to my wife over a decade ago and we discussed all this at length we agreed there would be no hormones or BA.

Would I? All things being equal at this stage of my life, No! Not because of family issues, friends issues or work issues. Simply because there are too many things in my life at this stage that are more important to me, one of them being my marriage and my lovely wife.
Had I come out when she "discovered" all this some 30 years ago I'm sure that after the same 10 year period I would have had a different answer and may even have by then transitioned. But that did not happen and now is now and then was then.
I'm happy at this point with the life I have. I can dress when I wish without concern. We go out frequently together and I'm never treated in any way but with love. I have the freedom to express ALL of me without a second thought and that will be enough for me.

[kaleyg]

nope, not my path

[Maxie]

Not really something that I would pursue.

[Roberta Lynn]

Thanks for the thread Reine.

Probably the number one question for the SO’s of someone who cross dresses, especially with Bruce Jenner being so much in the news.
I suppose like many here I’ve wondered what my life would have been if I was born female.
I enjoy my dressing but never considered transitioning.
Even if there were no consequences to my life and I would end up looking like a supermodel I wouldn’t do it.

[AngelaYVR]

I'm going to blend in and answer no, too.

[michelleddg]

Thanks indeed for the kind offer but, no. Hugs, Michelle

[Rhanda]

I think that if you are familiar with my posts you know my answer. No. I have always liked being a man. I just want the privilege to dress and be accepted as a beautiful man.

Rhanda

[Lacy PJs]

Like so many others who have responded so far, I'm firmly in the "No" camp.

While I recognize that everything is on some kind of continuum, isn't that the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual? I mean... a crossdresser does just that; they dress in the clothing intended for people of the opposite sex. A transsexual is someone who has made the decision to become a member of the opposite sex. They may not be there yet but once they have started on that journey, they have crossed the line; they have taken their fork in the road, so to speak.

I guess I think about it this way... there is a difference between acting and being. M2F crossdressers may well act the part and in many cases, do it very well. They may go the whole nine yards with wigs, make-up, shaving, fake breasts and all but they are still guys. But once they begin to make permanent alterations to their bodies, either physically or chemically, the acting is replaced by being... or being on the road to being.

I'm not sure why I felt the need to explain my reasoning for my answer but those permanent changes are a point I don't want to pass... or even get rather close to.

Lacy PJs

[Tracy Hazel Lee]

The 'loss of sexual function' is the deal breaker for me... Nope.

And I appreciate having the option of putting it all back in the closet when I've had enough.

[LilSissyStevie]

No. I already have moobs since puberty (gynecomastia - not attractive at all), sexual functioning is becoming a distant memory and my name is androgynous. Why would I want to make it worse? Someone mentioned DES. I'm a DES baby and although my testosterone levels test at the high side of normal, I suspect that I have some kind of insensitivity to it sort of like insulin insensitivity. Perhaps due to DES exposure in the womb. That would explain a lot if true. But I would never want to be a woman because having the urethra at the end of a hose is the great feature of being male.

[Rhonda Jean]

I would not. Although cding is not a phase for me, there have been many phases within it. Sometimes the phase is that I'm not into it, which is as legitimate as the other phases where I am. As hard as it sometimes is to go back, I want and need to be able to do that.

[carhill2mn]

Given the "rules" that you stated, the answer would be no.

[Shirley Anne]

definately no Im just a straightforward crossdresser but perfectly happy being male and in male mode the majority of the time, its just purely about the clothes for me.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Add one more to the "no" camp. As someone exploring the possibility of being gender fluid at best, I like my body the way it is.

[Kandi Robbins]

No, I am very happy as a man, but enjoy my girl time as well. After figuring out who I am, I am happy. Happy when I am me, happy when I am Kandi.

Beside doing so would come at too significant of a loss.

[StephanieinSecret]

Not me! I'm a man who likes being pretty sometimes, not a repressed woman. I enjoy the back-and-forth of CDing too much.

[ReineD]

Thanks so much for your responses everyone! :hugs:




Was your intention just to 'out' the inbetweenies, or confirm a distinction between crossdressers and transsexuals that most of us are probably already aware of and agree on...???



Of course, now I am interested in why you asked the question, and in such a very specific manner.

I just wanted to see if there was any truth to the idea that the difference between CDers and TSs is just a question of time. Clearly, it is not.

I purposely painted a realistic picture of transition in my OP. It does no good to ask a CDer, "Do you think about transition?" and he answers yes, if the question relates to the reality of transition and the answer is motivated by a mind's eye image of the "ideal" GG and her imagined life. :daydreaming:.

I wanted to know what the answers would be, given the reality.

[flatlander_48]

My answer would be No. While there is an attraction to femininity, I've never felt that I was in the wrong body.

[Katey888]

I just wanted to see if there was any truth to the idea that the difference between CDers and TSs is just a question of time. Clearly, it is not.


I think to fully prove the truth of this you'll have to come back sometime in the future and ask the same folk the same question... And again, and again, and... :)

And you did get a few 'maybes' too... :thinking:

You also have a cross-section here that is more on the mature side of life than otherwise - despite some obvious, high-profile transitioners in their autumnal years, I suspect most CDers who have reached a late-ish stage in life have done so as a CDer because the impetus to transition is just not high enough or circumstances have meant that the option was simply unavailable (for whatever reason). I shudder as to how many of those folk may have found other ways to end the need because any sort of support to transition was not open to them.

Given that cosmetic surgery continues to improve, I wonder how the answers would vary if your conditions reflected the reality that surgery can make you appear more youthful; can give you breast implants that could later be removed; can remove and reposition fatty tissue to alter body shape; can eliminate unwanted hair growth... and probably lots of other stuff that gets quite scary...

Katey x

[AbigailJordan]

no Reine, I wouldn't go for the transition. As many have said and I'm sure many have thought.. most CD's would love to have a pair of boobs to save the breast forms etc.. but I think that remains a fantasy wish rather than a true desire..

But ultimately no, I still identify as male, I am happy to be viewed as a Crossdresser/Transvestite/female impersonator/drag queen/whatever else people want to call it.. and I prefer to be referred to in the feminine context when en femme, but no.. I don't feel I'm in the wrong body.. I just want to be able to dress that body however I want.

[Tonya Rose]

Nope!! never plan to take it that far.... I am very comfortable with both sides of myself...

[Suzie Petersen]

No. And certainly not at this stage in my life. I am fine with who I am 99% of the time.


I just wanted to see if there was any truth to the idea that the difference between CDers and TSs is just a question of time. Clearly, it is not.

I know people generally say that jokingly, but it is a bad joke in my opinion. That is the kind of talk that makes an already concerned wife very nervous and difficult to convince.

[~Joanne~]

I am a CD in the truest sense. I have no desires or "inner girl" screaming to get out that i would ever consider transitioning or having anything done to myself on a permanent basis. I love that I can go back and forth on a whim, change my look or whatever and feel comfortable doing so.

[Linda Leigh]

In a word NO!!!!!

[MissTee]

No. I am a man and want to stay that way. Oh, and to stay fully functional, too.

[ReineD]

I think to fully prove the truth of this you'll have to come back sometime in the future and ask the same folk the same question

Not really. One just needs to look at our 11 year accumulation of posts and threads in the CD vs. the TS section (since 2004), to ascertain that only a small percentage actually think seriously about doing it. Invariably, if a member considers transition, she will post more in the TS section than the CD section. And even then, not everyone who posts regularly in the TS section follows through. A lot of them just disappear, before even beginning their journeys. Did they successfully transition and are they now stealth? Or did they get cold feet and don't want to come back here to say they didn't go through with it.

In any case, my thread provides the silent CD majority here with the opportunity to tell us how they really feel.



And you did get a few 'maybes' too... :thinking:

This is my point. lol. There are a few "maybes", with an overwhelming number of resounding No's.

It's nice to have a thread with real voices rather than have loose conjectures flying about, that the difference between CDs and TSs is only a few years. :p

[Erika Lyne]

2...You would also keep your current work situations, your current families, you would still live in the same neighborhoods. And you would not be stealth afterwards, most people would not immediately take it you were a genetic female ... it would be apparent (as is the norm) that you were a former man who transitioned (like Bruce Jenner).


To be accepted as who I feel to be, not lose friends and, more important, family?
Keep the job I have a love/hate relationship with and keep my wonderful neighbors?

One question, AFTER transition (full SRS) are you saying no sexual function at all? Or if answering "yes" then no MALE sexual function? If it were that no MALE sexual function but still have an adequate sex life with my current spouse, then HELL YES!!!

I am not sure where I fit in the whole spectrum but it is further along than I ever imagined and it scares me. If I could ever wake up in the morning and not ask myself, "What am I?" it would make me so much happier.

I hope you are finding what you are looking for.
-E

PS: Over 90 responses in under 23 hours, this is that fastest populating post I've seen. You have touched upon a subject people are willing to talk about. Interesting.

[flatlander_48]

It's nice to have a thread with real voices rather than have loose conjectures flying about, that the difference between CDs and TSs is only a few years. :p

SSDD...

Some say the same thing about bisexuals compared to being gay. Even if sometimes said in jest, it has roots in people actually expressing an opinion (erroneous) or being sarcastic (hurtful).

If that were really true for crossdressers, I doubt if it would be "a few years". I would think that the level of discomfort (or mismatch between the physical and mental selves) would be quite noticable 'way before that. You might not know exactly what it is, but dislike for the current situation should be pretty clear.

DeeAnn

[Kate T]

Not really. One just needs to look at our 11 year accumulation of posts and threads in the CD vs. the TS section (since 2004), to ascertain that only a small percentage actually think seriously about doing it.
Nice. A very good defacto measure. The only complication being that this is "crossdressers.com" so there is possibly a selection bias but if we take into account a large percentage of TS originally identify as CD then you probably capture most of the MTF TG spectrum. Part of me is very curious about how Katey's linear cohort would look too though :)

And even then, not everyone who posts regularly in the TS section follows through. A lot of them just disappear, before even beginning their journeys. Did they successfully transition and are they now stealth? Or did they get cold feet and don't want to come back here to say they didn't go through with it.
Alternatively I suspect that most TS once they transition no longer "need" the forums. Hence they drop out. You get a few who continue on well into / after their transition who are trying to help others and provide some role models and leadership but these seem to be significantly fewer than those who are seeking assistance / support for either decisions to transition or assistance with dealing with various issues of transition. Once they have resolved those issues I suspect many do not feel comfortable / have no need or interest in providing continuing support and leadership on this forum (I am not saying that they don't provide support or leadership elsewhere in their lives).

It's nice to have a thread with real voices rather than have loose conjectures flying about, that the difference between CDs and TSs is only a few years. :p
Definitely. Certainly has generated a fair bit of interest!

[Robin777]

40 years ago I might have said yes,But now it is big No...

[JocelynJames]

That's a big N O for me also. The way I see it , I pretty much have the best of both worlds.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Reine, For me the thought of having real breasts is a fascinating thought
but I'm happy having the best of both worlds:daydreaming:

[Jeninus]

Before I met my wife of 44 years, I would very likely have said "Yes" conditioned on the financing being available...it wasn't. Now that I am married to that wife, although the funding would be no problem whatsoever, I am committed to her and to our lives together - so now "No," and that is for the best, I'm certain.

I have come across some websites run by TSs, who have used their forums to express great regret about having undergone SRS (for some of the reasons set forth by ReineD at the outset in her post). How extensive and frequent that post-op regret is, how could we know? But an unhappy result of surgery may well explain why so many TSs disappear from this website. Suppose you make that supreme sacrifice and still can't pass and blend in? Your height, your hands and foot size will always be there, not to mention being "sir"'d on the phone and given strange looks when you open your mouth to speak in public. The surgeons may be great, but they aren't magicians.

Besides, when I stroll through the mall and observe women, I see very little about them that makes me envy them or want to be one of them. I'm afraid they don't particularly strike me as looking as though they particularly enjoy being women, except when they are in a group with their friends - that's perhaps more special for them than it is for us. Most of them have concerns and frustrations and worries, just like us.

[ReineD]

SSDD...
If that were really true for crossdressers, I doubt if it would be "a few years". I would think that the level of discomfort (or mismatch between the physical and mental selves) would be quite noticable 'way before that. You might not know exactly what it is, but dislike for the current situation should be pretty clear.

Precisely.



To Katey and others who like to believe that a fair chunk of CDers might want to transition, I just want to say that I understand why it might be beneficial for some people in our community to believe this. I should think it makes them feel safer. After all, if a larger percentage of the population was trans to the point of wanting to be full-time and therefore out (it's pretty hard to be full-time in the closet), say for example 15% - 20% or even more, the general populace would be inured to seeing them. There wouldn't be any negative bias since people would take transpersons as being part of life's daily fabric rather than someone who is "odd" because there are so few.

But, to want something is one thing. To convince the self and others that what one wants is true is entirely different. :p



I have come across some websites run by TSs, who have used their forums to express great regret about having undergone SRS (for some of the reasons set forth by ReineD at the outset in her post). How extensive and frequent that post-op regret is, how could we know?

Interesting you mention this. Just last week we found out that another friend, after SRS, wants to go back to living male.

I don't think that TSs ever regret transition. They absolutely need to align their bodies to their internal sense of gender. But, I do think there is a huge potential for regret if someone goes through the steps of transition for the wrong reasons. This happens more frequently than you think and unfortunately it takes some years to figure that out.

[Taylor186]

I've been an occasional crossdresser for fifty years. Never once in this time did I feel the need to transition.

[Natalie cupcake]

No Reine I would not like to change who I am. My wife loves both parts of me. She likes Natalie around but she wants a man around as well.

[Kate T]

There wouldn't be any negative bias since people would take transpersons as being part of life's daily fabric rather than someone who is "odd" because there are so few.

In the same way there is no negative bias towards gay and lesbian individuals, or perhaps individuals of islamic faith? Numbers help but it is education that tends to be the key I think.


Interesting you mention this. Just last week we found out that another friend, after SRS, wants to go back to living male.

I don't think that TSs ever regret transition. They absolutely need to align their bodies to their internal sense of gender. But, I do think there is a huge potential for regret if someone goes through the steps of transition for the wrong reasons. This happens more frequently than you think and unfortunately it takes some years to figure that out.

Hmm..... this is a curious one. There are VERY few actual studies (I mean proper published peer reviewed studies in scientific journals) that demonstrate any significant level of "transition regret". Do the PubMed search. YET there is no doubt that anecdotally there are cases and the experience of some individuals of the community is that this incidence seems significant. So the question becomes why the disparity. Perhaps there is under reporting of transition regret in the studies, perhaps there is an over reporting of anecdotal transition regret stories (lets face it, who hasn't heard about Charles Kane), perhaps there is a cohort effect, access to transition services is far easier now than at any time in the past so maybe as well as enabling those who need access to services we are are seeing an increase in the rate of those who perhaps do not benefit from those services, this is a common problem whenever you try to apply a universal treatment to a broader and broader subject group (or conversely, the smaller and more selective the group you apply the treatment to, i.e. those who in the past had such dramatic GID that they would literally do ANYTHING to gain treatment, the less likely you are to have a "regrettable" outcome). I don't know the answer. My suspicion having read a lot of the published peer reviewed literature is that there is a tendency for the anecdotal "bad" outcome to have a disproportionally large influence on the perceived incidence of that bad outcome. We know this occurs with other medical conditions (the vaccine debate being the classic example). I do wonder a little though as to whether the cohort effect of accessibility of services may have some mild influence though.

Sorry to be devils advocate but in my defence you did bring it up Reine :)

[Tina_gm]

Given the rules, there is not any true thought about any type of transition. Even if my wife were to leave me, I doubt highly that I would start taking hormones due to loss of sexual function. For me, that side effect out weighs the other effects they bring. Many CDers may wonder, ponder or wish, as I sometimes do, but the reality always out weighs it. I believe that is a key indicator of a true TS person. They will transition regardless of life circumstance and often will end their male sexual function willingly.

[Zylia]

No. I do not identify as female, but all is relative.

And yes, even with all the help in the world, a 40-50 year old natal man is not going to turn into the 20 year old dream girl they always wanted to be. Thanks for pointing that out.

Your image of what it means to be a transwoman is overly grim. Perhaps it's deliberate to make your point, but I reckon it's somewhat hurtful for the many wonderful transwomen who also read this, who do look great, who are among friends, who are sexually active and, last but not least, finally have the chance to live an authentic life.

[Tracii G]

I agree with Zylia in some regard.
So what RD is saying essentially all older CD's might as well forget it and transwomen are stuck being ugly women?
I wonder if there is some fear she has she is not telling us.

[XemmaX]

noway im a bloke

[LucyNewport]

Well, I stand by my maybe. I realize (now) that this puts me well outside the CD norm. I still don't really consider myself to be TS. I have never made a sustained effort to change my body medically. I have come close several times but always backed away before it counted. I guess I just figured that to be normal.

I'm new here. I'm mostly familiar with the IRL crossdressers in NY. They seem to flip into TS land fairly quickly.

[Kate T]

Zylia and Tracii, you misconstrue I think what Reine is trying to discern.

Reine's construct was aimed at trying to inject a bit of reality into the old "if you could take a magic pill" argument. Take out the sexual fantasy element and what is left? It is curious that for many CD's the deal breaker was the loss of sexual functioning which makes one wonder about the old "I like to express my feminine side" argument for crossdressing (though I have some concerns with the premise in Reine's argument on this, notably the apparent implication that any MTF is effectively asexual, at least whilst they are pre op and presumably for those that are post op if they are not androphilic then they continue to be asexual?). I think her reasons for asking are quite transparent i.e. debunking the CD's always progress myth and putting some reality into the magic pill fantasy that gets a regular airing.

[ReineD]

So what RD is saying essentially all older CD's might as well forget it and transwomen are stuck being ugly women?

Tracii, please read my OP. Where is there any reference to beauty or ugliness. Be careful to not read your own thoughts into my words.



Your image of what it means to be a transwoman is overly grim. Perhaps it's deliberate to make your point, but I reckon it's somewhat hurtful for the many wonderful transwomen who also read this, who do look great, who are among friends, who are sexually active and, last but not least, finally have the chance to live an authentic life.

I apologize to the TSs reading this if they feel hurt by my post. But, I did not refer to levels of attractiveness. I wrote about being misgendered, which happens frequently.

I also addressed my comments to the CDers in this forum, most of whom are between their late 40s and early 60s, according to a rather large age survey we had some years back. I think there were over 200 answers. I asked that before answering my question, they should think about what does and what does not change after HRT and surgeries. There is a tendency here sometimes to answer based on wishful thinking and I wanted to find out how people might feel about still having their same bodily characteristics after transition, other than breasts. I don't think I wrote anything that was inaccurate and again I made no reference to anyone's personal level of attractiveness.

As to sexual satisfaction, I was referring to the loss of male sexual functioning that necessarily occurs through HRT.

I agree with you that TSs finally live an authentic life after transition. It's a question of bringing the body in line with identity and I dare say for them it is not about wanting to transform themselves into someone they are not. But I wasn't speaking to TSs, my question was posed to CDers. The aim was to find out how many would want to transition given their current circumstances, age, and bodies. I did not make any commentary against transition.

[Marcelle]

Hi Reine,

Well for anyone who has followed my somewhat "accelerated" journey going from not dressing at to a 40/60 male/female split and now seeking workplace accommodation to present female on Fridays (non-uniform day at work) some would say I am running down the pathway to transition . . . I believe Zylia is giving odds :). My therapist and I discuss this often and indeed it is central to our visits and to be honest it annoys the heck out of me some days but I get why she does it on a theoretical level. Would I transition if the odds were in my favor knowing that I would be who I am to the world . . . always seen as MtF transwoman (this kid ain't pretty when dressed). To be honest, at this juncture "no" because I know in my heart of hearts if I did, then I would have to resort to FtM CDing in order to function much the way I do now for FtM. These are both integral parts of my core identity and finding balance is the key for me right now. However, there are no guarantees in life and as my therapist explains I definitely have Gender Dysphoria but I do not feel out of sorts with my body (i.e., I don't desire SRS, BAS, FFS) heck I don't even use padding or breast forms. I do remove my body hair (but have always done that) and have had about 70 percent of my facial hair lasered away . . . does that make me TS or least running to that side. IMHO, at this juncture no because I also like being a man and can live as such even with the hair removal. The important thing for me is that those around me know who I am and that makes balance that much easier.

Hugs

Isha

[Teresa]

Reine,
I think Katey covered the answer well !
After reading the Bruce Jenner interview it's raised issues in my mind which I'm still struggling to resolve ! I know many of us can relate to some part of his story but his acceptance of being hetro and playing the male part and not wanting to lose that is confusing with his wish to eventually fully transition !
That contradiction just keeps going round in my head ! It just ties in with my thread of that never ending feeling ! A yearning or ache continually inside you !!

He's 65 and I'm 64 these ideas are just on the edge of crazy !!

[Samantha_Smile]

Not a chance.

Take away the element of "going back and forth" and it stops being fun.
Start living as a female every day and it stops being fun.

This is one of few aspects of crossdressing that I liken to hobbyism.
eg - I love PC hardware and PC maintenance, I'm great with computers - Custom system building, virus removal, system tuning, overclocking... if it's at single machine level - I can do it (networks are not my forte)
And my friends all say "You should start a business doing this"
My response is always "When your hobby becomes your job, you lose love for it"
How many times have you heard of the kid who LOVED cars, so became a mechanic, and now they hate cars.
I dont want that for me.

Besides this...
ReineD - You say this question is aimed at CDs - Well its not. You're aiming this question at people who, if they answer in the affirmative, are probably more than 'just CD', it's likely that they are in fact TS and in some need of guidance.
PERMANENT BODY CHANGES are not for 99.9% of CDs in the traditional definition. Permanent changes to name and presenting gender are for people who NEED to live as that gender.

Just my 2c

[CarlaWestin]

Only under the condition that all things in my normal life were to change drastically would I consider a full physiological transition. And then, I would be in a state of permanent extreme cross-gendering. I would have to start over as an entirely new person and relinquish home, wife, occupation and self perception. I am a crossdresser and gender explorer. I get a kick out of presenting as a woman of fantasy but, I'm really good at being a man.

[Imalittlelost]

The loss of sexual function is scary, really scary. I asked my spouse and he was unaware that HRT caused impotence (I guess that means he hasn't researched it), his response to this thread was an almost cartoon-like NO!

Jenn

[Katey888]

To Katey and others who like to believe that a fair chunk of CDers might want to transition.

What? :wtf: When did I give that impression? :eek: Let me clarify that I don’t think that at all – and I can’t see where you get that from.

However… Do I think that TSs start down the route of living their true gender by crossdressing? Presumably they do – but probably not many of them come to cd.com for the advice and support they need to undergo a change that is so radical and fundamental to who they are as a person. Adina has it right about who you are practically addressing your question to – the majority of members that join this place are looking for CDing support, NOT transitioning support although, of course, there are some that are perhaps still uncertain about their future – and some have posted here. Your audience here is drawn predominantly from married or attached crossdressers who are out to their partners – generally, I’d suggest again that most have already determined that they don’t have the drive to transition and that this is a fun thing; a comfort thing; a satisfaction thing that fulfils a lower level of some ‘gender identity need’ that can be met by everything from underdressing through to shopping with the SO. Any overwhelming need to permanently transition doesn’t enter into reality for them.


There is a tendency here sometimes to answer based on wishful thinking and I wanted to find out how people might feel about still having their same bodily characteristics after transition, other than breasts. I don't think I wrote anything that was inaccurate and again I made no reference to anyone's personal level of attractiveness.

As to sexual satisfaction, I was referring to the loss of male sexual functioning that necessarily occurs through HRT.

I’m glad you clarified the second part of that – I know I have seen individuals post here who wanted to retain male sexuality through transition, but I suspect that’s fairly unusual.
The first part about wishful thinking and the fantasy threads that you read here are exactly that: fantasy! I don’t believe this is much different to car buffs on a forum debating which Ferrari model they prefer but in fact most wouldn’t put up with the reliability, the servicing costs, the insurance costs or the impracticality of a vehicle with a trunk the size of an attache case… let alone the purchase cost... but everything we do has a degree of fantasy about it. If anything it’s that element that defines the significant differences between CDs and TSs. My femme appearance is all about fantasy, art, femulation and probably a fair dose of AGP(autogynephilia) too… Could that be further from the serious reality of someone who is fully transsexual and is desperately seeking to find harmony between their internal feelings and life in the outside world? I don’t think so.

Nor do I agree with the myth of progression, just to be clear on that too. :) I do think many of us develop and progress in a CD sense – Lord knows I have – in terms of how we look, what we do and where we go to do it, but only a very few are truly going through the uncertainty of whether that permanent change is right for them and necessary for them. I know you may not have meant this, but I think that this differentiation somehow illuminates the divide in the community that we all know is there, but we rarely see it in the spotlight like this and that feels divisive to me rather than inclusive. There ARE absolutely differences between CDs and TSs – but there are some commonalities too, and the flip-side of your point about a larger number being trans is that perhaps some folk here feel safer having the differences highlighted. I’m probably being overly idealistic again, but I think we all have more to gain by being seen as more united than divided…

Katey x

[Dianne S]

As to sexual satisfaction, I was referring to the loss of male sexual functioning that necessarily occurs through HRT.

OK, this is a bit tangential, but loss of male sexual functioning is not an inevitable consequence of HRT. Some people can continue to function, especially once their bodies adjust to the new levels of hormones.

Anyway, sorry, back to the original discussion folks...

[ReineD]

Would I transition if the odds were in my favor knowing that I would be who I am to the world . . . always seen as MtF transwoman (this kid ain't pretty when dressed).

You, Zylia and Tracii are all thinking along the same lines, which is that to be read as M2F "ain't pretty". I don't see it that way at all. I think that most people are attractive, whether M2F, F2M, or cisgender in the sense that no one is "ugly" using the common definition of "ugly". I just want to clarify that a person who is misgendered as MtF trans as opposed to GG can still be attractive.



You say this question is aimed at CDs - Well its not. You're aiming this question at people who, if they answer in the affirmative, are probably more than 'just CD', it's likely that they are in fact TS and in some need of guidance.

You're over-thinking it. :) I did include people who think of themselves as "not quite CD" and "not quite TS", since all labels in this forum are highly open to personal interpretation.

When asking the question "Would you", there's no point in hearing from people who have or who have already begun the process of transition (coming out to everyone, living 24/7 including work, and changing their names and all other gender markers).

The aim of this thread was to give a real sense of how many people would Not transition more than sussing out the few who are on the fence about it.

[Isabella Ross]

Love being a man who makes an occasional foray into femininity. So the answer is a definitive "no".

[ReineD]

OK, this is a bit tangential, but loss of male sexual functioning is not an inevitable consequence of HRT. Some people can continue to function, especially once their bodies adjust to the new levels of hormones.

Not according to reports from the bulk of TSs who have been on female hormones for years, although the time it takes to do this may vary.

If anyone wants to engage in a discussion about the effectiveness of HRT on various people, please start a different thread. I really would like to keep this thread on track.


What? :wtf: When did I give that impression? :eek: Let me clarify that I don’t think that at all – and I can’t see where you get that from.

I misinterpreted your words. Sorry. I took it, when you suggested that we can't get a sense of how many people want to transition unless we ask the same people the same question repeatedly after several years, that you were kinda hoping there wouldn't be as many "Nos". I think that we can get a pretty good sense of how many people will transition by the answers in this thread alone. To not do so, is to basically tell all the good people who responded here that they do not know who they are. :p

Please disregard my statement as applying to you, although there are definitely some people in this forum who would love it if there were more trans folks in our general population, for the reasons I mentioned which is understandable.

[Tina_gm]

Reinie, I think this is a very good thread and poses a great question. Responses that go beyond just no way, but of why, especially in regard to the parameters you set up, which are basically just true realism are relevant. Ask a question, if you were 20 years old, 5'5" and 120 lbs. and know what you know now or feel what you feel now, sure, many might at least consider transition... MIGHT consider it. But to be 40+y/o, making 50k or more a year, supporting a family and having financial security and that a lot of the life they have will be greatly disrupted or ended due to transitioning then the answer is no without much of a a thought. Those parameters come into play, along with physical markers such as say being over 6 ft tall and surgeries and hormones which will make for feminizing but will not completely undo markers... Another hurdle that those who are truly TS will clear. All those things which are part of the reality are those which those who are TS will still transition despite of. Mostly because according to their story, they feel they have to.

If transition is done out of convenience or desire alone, without the feeling of a true need to, then there is a good likelihood that those will be the people who will end up regretting transition. Too much to go through, too much life disruption without enough gained. Those who truly need to, they have nothing to lose because they are already losing it all, and everything to gain because they have nothing left to gain without transitioning.

[audreyinalbany]

This is beside the point and COMPLETELY off topic…but….Reine, I think it speaks volumes about how significant your presence is on this forum that a question you posted is now up to five pages of replys. As a FAB member of the forum (probably the premier FAB member here) your input and opinions are so important to EVERYONE here that we are all especially anxious to read and reply to your questions. So, once again, thanks for being you.

[becky77]

I apologize to the TSs reading this if they feel hurt by my post. But, I did not refer to levels of attractiveness. I wrote about being misgendered, which happens frequently.


No apolgy needed from my perspective, fascinating reading.

[ReineD]

This is beside the point and COMPLETELY off topic…but….Reine, I think it speaks volumes about how significant your presence is on this forum that a question you posted is now up to five pages of replys.

I appreciate the vote of confidence but I think the thread got as many responses as it did because it gives a voice to the people who really don't want to transition.

I think that a mistake some people make, is to believe the average CDer is in denial about being TS. Thinking this is as ridiculous as believing that hetero TSs transition for fetish reasons, as was suggested by Blanchard, or that transitioning is a cake walk.

[Rhian]

I honestly don't know. I'm certainly confused about my gender and how I feel varies on a day to day basis. One of my biggest concerns about a transition would be finding a girlfriend. At the minute I'm happy to be single but I may not be in later life and being a transwoman would limit the dating field.

[Bria]

I'm a bit late to the party, but no, I would not consider transition. My wife has been very clear about he position and I very much want to stay in this 38 year relationship.

Hugs, Bria

[Jane G]

Reine the frasing of your questions and criteria mean most of these replies will be no. As would be mine in my current circumstaces. I enjoy my life style and love my wife of 30+ years too much.

[ReineD]

Reine the frasing of your questions and criteria mean most of these replies will be no.

Jane, the whole point of this thread was to get a head count of how many CDers (specifically) would transition, given the realities of transition.

I take it that everyone is posting their inner truths when they respond here.

There can be other threads to find out how CDers imagine their lives would be had they been born women, or how they might like to change their bodies a bit but still switch back and forth, or how they might like to live more androgynously. These topics were simply not a focus of this thread.

[nancigirl]

I wonder how many of the 'no' responses might change to 'yes' or 'possibly' if the question included a provision that the CDer's wife or SO would be supportive of her CD going ahead with transition. That would certainly change my 'no' (can't do it because of the feelings of my spouse) to 'yes, definitely!'

[MissTee]

I wonder how many of the 'no' responses might change to 'yes' or 'possibly' if the question included a provision that the CDer's wife or SO would be supportive of her CD going ahead with transition.

I would still say no.

[Amy R Lynn]

I've read some of the replies here. Not all of them... There are far to many.

I'm definitely an in betweener. I can honestly say that I don't know what the future holds for me. In my current circumstance, I would say no.

However, in a fairytale utopia where everyone accepted everyone else for who they are ,(I think this is what Reine was getting at) I would say yes. I would love to be me.

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Hi Reine, I'll bite.

I'd love to look more like a woman, and the progression you describe is seductive, but I am torn. I'm certain it would mean the end of my marriage, and whatever selfish and narcissistic pleasure I would derive from looking better in a dress or feeling more feminine would be more than offset by my shame and guilt over putting a great woman who deserves better through a terrible roller-coaster. Over 15 years, the passion with my wife has ebbed somewhat. Crossdressing has added needed spice in the few years since I came out, and brought us closer together in the bedroom, but that's with full sexual function. If I could no longer react to her as a man would, or satisfy her that way, I think she would leave and I wouldn't blame her. Part of me believes she would be better off with a "real" man anyway, so I am very grateful for her partial approval. I wish she would be all in, and encourage me more, but I totally understand how that would end it.

She was genuinely pleased at the increase in my libido and our improved sex life when I started dressing. It has caused her some anguish, however, because I am more romantic and passionate when some element of dressing is involved, and she now believes she is no longer the main driver of my desire. That is not entirely true, but I will admit she has basis for concern. We do have a sex life outside of dressing and we both enjoy it, but somehow I feel more romantic and closer to her when CD is a foreplay event. I think I am more on the spectrum of fetishistic dressing. It still excites me--but in my case the fetish involves her seeing me dressed, and participating, not just being dressed when I am alone. I don't know why I harbor these fantasies of approval and participation, I just do. As you have seen from some of my posts, she occasionally accommodates. And the sex is still good.

I'm not sure how my children would react, but during their impending adolescence they will have enough to deal with already, without having a dad about whose existence they would likely feel embarrassed and want to conceal. They know me as their macho, ex-military, fix-it-all, do-anything, super-strong, indestructible dad. Why rock their world for a vain attempt to better my feminine image? Maybe when they are in their late teens or young adults, I will be more open. We'll see about that.

The bottom line is, my life is no longer just about me. It's about those that depend on me. I fell in love with a girl and married her, and we have wonderful children together. I thought the CD compulsion would wane, but it hasn't. If I knew then what I know now--especially with the information resources available today--I would have likely taken a different course. I think transgender people in current times are lucky. They see and know what's possible, though 30 years from now, those of this generation will probably think the same way, when transition medicine permits flawless outcomes in most cases.

Changing gears, I'm in a very public profession where being authoritative and credible--even commanding--is a big benefit, and I am paid well for it. Don't get me wrong, there are women in my business, and they are very effective, but with a different style. Both men and women can lead and inspire, but with notable differences in approach.

I admire high profile trans people who have been successful, but in my line of work I wonder how things would go. Within a corporation, I'm sure their would be EO protection and I would keep my job. We deal with external customers, however, who decide where to spend their money, and though there would be an accepting minority, I suspect there would be a majority that would be confused or outright defensive. Being "in the middle" (and as you describe, that's how I would be...I'd look like Kristin Beck, bless her courage) would mean I would forego the advantages of either gender in my profession, and I think would make me less effective. From a crass, materialistic perspective, I fear losing my livelihood by pursuing a more female appearance and identity. If I can't earn the money I make, I can't provide for my family or maintain our lifestyle. If I transitioned, I suspect I would have a far more meager income and standard of living for all of us. They deserve better. I need to take one for the team!

In sum, if I suddenly had no obligations and were independently wealthy, I suppose all bets would be off. But I'm not, I love my family, and I like living well, so it remains a pleasant daydream. My answer is, given the realities, "NO."

As I imagine the future, I hope that my wife continues to be supportive, perhaps even more so...accepting things she hasn't like makeup or wigs, and that I can improve my feminine image further. And I want to fit into a size 10 or 12 dress ;)

Shibumi

[ReineD]

I wonder how many of the 'no' responses might change to 'yes' or 'possibly' if the question included a provision that the CDer's wife or SO would be supportive of her CD going ahead with transition. That would certainly change my 'no' (can't do it because of the feelings of my spouse) to 'yes, definitely!'

I appreciate your thought, but you don't get it (sorry). I specifically left that out because I didn't want to get into any "what if" or imaginary scenarios. This forum is already filled with those. People do know their own lives, they do know what they have to work with, and they answered accordingly. We all live under different circumstances with different people who have different personality types. We all have choices to make based on our own personal circumstances and we all end up making choices that fit us specifically and that end up reflecting our priorities, despite what we may wish.

For example, I would love nothing more than to live in France close to my roots, near the Alps for skiing, near the influence of great art, living with people that I understand, living a way of life that I feel speaks more closely to my soul than living in a small town in the US. Do I move there? No. Why? Because I want to be close to my kids and stay in my relationship with my SO. If I was a multi-millionaire and could afford to bring my kids over to France anytime they wanted, and visit them frequently here, and if my SO could find a way to pursue his career there (which my SO would never give up ... his research is a part of him), would I then move to France? Sure! But, that's not my reality. So what's my priority then? Staying close to my kids and my SO.

This thread is not about what we wish for. This thread is about what we choose to do.

[DanaR]

..................................We all have choices to make based on our own personal circumstances and we all end up making choices that fit us specifically and that end up reflecting our priorities, despite what we may wish.............................................. .......... Why? Because I want to be close to my kids and stay in my relationship with my SO.............................
That is exactly why I wouldn't transition. I care about my family too much. I couldn't imagine any reason that would change. One of my daughters hates this part of me, but surprisingly she felt so bad for Bruce Jenner after watching Diane Sawyers interview. My wife has no problem with me dressing anytime that I want. She is taking me out next Friday for a day shopping, dinner and a show; which is something that we haven't done in quite a while. So I'll have a few days to get my hair and makeup sorted out before hand; which I have appointments for Monday.

[Jayne]

It has to be a no.
I dream of soft skin my own hair, a feminine shape and breasts but I am and always will be a man in a dress ;)

[Sonya]

A cautious but pretty definite NO from me as well with the given criteria.

[Ellanore G.G.]

Good post. My Husband tells me when he dresses he is in a complete different frame of mind.
So it would be impossible for him to keep this up
for more than a few hours at a time .
But he did tell me that years ago he thought about getting breasts
and becoming a beautiful woman.
Like it was something he could achieve overnight.
As he got older the need/urge? to dress became less, not really sure why.

[Marcelle]

You, Zylia and Tracii are all thinking along the same lines, which is that to be read as M2F "ain't pretty". I don't see it that way at all. I think that most people are attractive, whether M2F, F2M, or cisgender in the sense that no one is "ugly" using the common definition of "ugly". I just want to clarify that a person who is misgendered as MtF trans as opposed to GG can still be attractive.

Reine,

Please don't over think my comments. I was responding to your guideline that we (CDers) would retain our age, hair pattern, body type etc., etc., and would not be (your words) "a beautiful young woman". When I used the phrase "this kid ain't pretty when dressed" it meant just that. Being misgendered in most cases (not always) is based on people's perception of beauty as it applies how a gender should look. There are plenty of "beautiful . . . yes beautiful" men who are all male and nobody would accuse them of being a "woman". However, I have heard people comment on women whose phenotype is more masculine (these are cis women BTW) and describe them as "mannish, butch, dude and tranny" . . . why because they do not match the concept of feminine beauty.

So again, I would be misgendered because I would be seen as less than feminine because to be honest . . . "the kid really ain't pretty when dressed". :battingeyelashes:

[ReineD]

... and would not be (your words) "a beautiful young woman".

I can see the potential for mixed messages. I included the "beautiful" adjective because in my (older) eyes, ALL young people are beautiful. Their jawlines haven't begun to slack yet. :D


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<edit> - A need for precision
I've just changed the wording in the first paragraph of my OP from "complete loss of sexual functioning" to "partial to complete loss of male sexual functioning".

This post is intended for CDers, and so in my OP I did not initially think it necessary to refer to the sexual experiences of transitioned and/or post-op TSs. There are no boundaries between sections in this forum and to consider the TSs who do participate in the CD section and who may be reading this thread, I see now that I needed to be more precise with my wording and specify that I was referring strictly to male sexual functioning and not the quality of a sex life after a full transition (with or without SRS). However, it is my understanding that a full regimen of HRT combined with a full regimen of anti-androgens will effectively eliminate male sexual functioning. I base this on the posts in this forum from TSs who have mentioned what happens to their male sex organs after being on HRT.

[Lily Catherine]

I wouldn't simply because I don't feel a need to go through all that trouble; it's disproportionate to my level of gender dysphoria. Simply put, I'm a guy who enjoys cross-dressing, and it'll likely stay that way. At 95% of my time spent presenting male I see no point removing the gender markers. No 'yet', at least for the foreseeable future.

[Dana3]

The simple fact of the matter is that youthfulness and the looks that go with it are fleeting at best, even for the best of us and regardless of who we or for that matter we are? Granted with the advances of modern "medicine" there are miraculous things that can be achieved, but in the end "Time" stops for no man nor woman.

[JayeLefaye]

I'm a happily married simple CDer. No interest in altering anything except Societies conceptions-perceptions-etc...:-)

Jaye

[jennysueaz]

I have now met several transwomen at Southern Comfort, Keystone and Fantasia Fair. The transition was the correct choice for their lives and they truly seem happy. I have a loving wife who supports me in my CD activities and gos with me to all Transgender conventions. My family member know that I crossdress but the answer to transition is a big NO. I am a happy crossdresser and those whom have transitions all appear to truly happy and I support them in their new lives.

I will stay a crossdressing male who loves to hangout with other fine transgendered folks both tranwomen and transmen.

[Eryn]

I just wanted to see if there was any truth to the idea that the difference between CDers and TSs is just a question of time. Clearly, it is not.

I don't see it as all that definite. When I first joined the forum my answer would have been "Absolutely NO!" but this is no longer the case. In the intervening years I've been able to work my way through a lot of my ingrained prejudice and shame to come to the conclusion that transition might be a viable option for me despite the disadvantages Reine mentioned in her first post. In my case, and I don't think that I am an isolated data point, having the time to accept myself was definitely a factor that caused me to move along the spectrum.

Speaking of the concept of a spectrum, I think that trying to draw a dividing line between any two parts of the spectrum is ultimately, futile. Some on the CD end of the spectrum would say that I should not be allowed to post to this thread as I have made permanent alterations to my appearance. Some of the post-op transwomen whose voices have been intentionally silenced in this thread would define me as CDer since I am not full time. It's all a matter of perspective.


A lot of them just disappear, before even beginning their journeys. Did they successfully transition and are they now stealth? Or did they get cold feet and don't want to come back here to say they didn't go through with it.

Quite a few go to more TS-oriented forums. Some may not want to take what they perceive as a backwards step from living an authentic life by associating with others on the spectrum. We're an odd group that way.


Jane, the whole point of this thread was to get a head count of how many CDers (specifically) would transition, given the realities of transition.

What you are actually determining is the number, at this point in time, who think that they would transition. My opinion is that this number is less than that who might ultimately transition. Many of us came to this forum seeking information that would help us in figuring out what we are. The decision about where a person lies on the spectrum may require months or years to make.

I think it would be instructive to ask those who identify as TS to describe their own process. How many knew that they were TS all along and how many thought that they were CDers until something prompted them to move further along the spectrum?

[ReineD]

Quite a few go to more TS-oriented forums.

Are there any TS forums that have a large membership like this one? If you could send me the links, I'd like to compare the membership volume, see if I recognize anyone who left here, and also have a gander of what types of posts there are ... if it is about transitioning support and resources, or if the bulk are other things like we have in the CD section here. Because when I compare both sections in this forum "TS" vs. "CD", the TS section is significantly smaller. Also, I consider our TS section to be "TS-oriented". Do you not?



What you are actually determining is the number, at this point in time, who think that they would transition. My opinion is that this number is less than that who might ultimately transition. Many of us came to this forum seeking information that would help us in figuring out what we are.

How much less, do you think? Out of the 6 pages of mostly definite No's in this thread, do you think that half don't know who they are? Or maybe more? Also, a huge chunk of the people who answered No have already been here for some years. Yes there are a handful who are on the fence (and they have said so or their answers are not definite) but there is and has been enough information online for some years now. I think that if a person is not happy in their birth sex, they will have googled and found resources before now especially if they are older?

Last, if you had not joined here, do you think that you would not be transitioning? I don't mean to be disrespectful or flippant, but I'm taking your words literally "Many of us came to this forum seeking information that would help us in figuring out what we are". Is it the influence of others that has helped you to determine who you are and what you want? Also, which section of the forum do you think was the most helpful to you in determining what you want to do, and why? Thanks for your answer.

[Launa]

I can't believe I have skipped over this thread. I haven't read all the posts but answering the questions from the first one I would say if all of those things are in order and I don't have to take a financial hit then yes, lets get it on!

Cheers

[Eryn]

Are there any TS forums that have a large membership like this one?

No there aren't as CD.com has an attractive URL, high Google placement, and attracts lots of "questioners."

For TS people there are forums such as Susan's and Laura's, et. al. that allow discussion of topics prohibited here. They don't have the sheer numbers of members but the discussions tend to have greater depth. Forums also tend to become less important for a TS-oriented person as they are more and more out and make more face-to-face relationships.


I consider our TS section to be "TS-oriented". Do you not?

It is obviously TS-oriented. It may not meet all the needs of people on that end of the spectrum which is why they might not remain here.


Out of the 6 pages of mostly definite No's in this thread, do you think that half don't know who they are? Or maybe more? Also, a huge chunk of the people who answered No have already been here for some years. Yes there are a handful who are on the fence (and they have said so or their answers are not definite)

I don't see how any other result can be expected when the majority of people who would have answered "yes" were excluded from the thread. I'm in the middle and I was uncertain about whether it was appropriate for me to post in this thread.


but there is and has been enough information online for some years now. I think that if a person is not happy in their birth sex, they will have googled and found resources before now especially if they are older?

I would have thought that too, except that I have myself as an example. I'm "older", have been on the 'net ever since there was a 'net, yet for some reason I didn't work up the desire and courage to research my gender issues until I was 53. The "why" lies in my upbringing and society's attitude toward gender.


Last, if you had not joined here, do you think that you would not be transitioning? I don't mean to be disrespectful or flippant, but I'm taking your words literally "Many of us came to this forum seeking information that would help us in figuring out what we are". Is it the influence of others that has helped you to determine who you are and what you want? Also, which section of the forum do you think was the most helpful to you in determining what you want to do, and why? Thanks for your answer.

I'm still not sure if I will be transitioning, but I am a lot less frightened of the prospect than I was previously. Knowledge is power. Without the forum I would probably have followed a similar path but the timeline might have been different. I came to this forum mostly because of its high placement on Google and its lack of tawdry content. I did not come to the forum, read a few posts, slap myself on the forehead and say "Doh, how stupid of me, I'm TS!" Getting to the point of even considering this took a lot of study, learning of terminology, study of sociology, getting used to the concept, and unlearning past prejudices. That's what I think is behind the "3 years from CD to TS" saying. It doesn't apply to all of us or even most of us, but for some of us there is truth in the humor.

I tend to read the forum from the New Posts entry point, so I don't really pay attention to which section a particular post is in. Obviously the MTF and TS sections are where most of my visits lead, but Loved Ones and Media also have good discussions from which I have gleaned information.

Another important resource are the people I've met through the forum and the people they have in turned introduced me to. The Face-to-Face community becomes a lot more important as you move along the spectrum and start going out the door regularly.

[Taylor186]

I don't see how any other result can be expected when the majority of people who would have answered "yes" were excluded from the thread. I'm in the middle and I was uncertain about whether it was appropriate for me to post in this thread.

I don't understand your thinking here. The first post is asking a question: would you transition - yes or no? Why would you include TSs? They've obviously already said yes.


[edit] And to add to my prior answer, I wouldn't think of transitioning even if I weren't married.

[ReineD]

I don't see how any other result can be expected when the majority of people who would have answered "yes" were excluded from the thread. I'm in the middle and I was uncertain about whether it was appropriate for me to post in this thread.

Oh, well that's easy! Of course people who identify as TS want to transition (if they could), there's no need to ask! This wasn't a forum survey, the question was not "How many people in this forum want to transition", or "what percentage of the people who currently participate at cd.com want to transiton".

I wanted to isolate the people who do NOT identify as TS, who DO identify as either CD or some version of "more than CD but not quite TS".

I did this, to bring some amount of perspective to how the silent segment here, the CDers who do not normally participate in threads about wanting to be a woman, feel. Some of the more vocal people who DO want to transition, perhaps because they cannot understand people who are not like them, perhaps because they want company along their journeys, give the impression that they believe CDers don't know if they will want to transition or not until they WILL want to transition (in 2, 3, 5, or 10 years). lol. It's the very old joke, really, the one that TSs have been bantering around for ages: "What's the difference between a CD and a TS -- 2 years". :p

This thread disproves this. That's all.




I would have thought that too, except that I have myself as an example. I'm "older", have been on the 'net ever since there was a 'net, yet for some reason I didn't work up the desire and courage to research my gender issues until I was 53.

Ah. Well, then you and I will disagree. You think (perhaps) that most (or half? or many?) CDers will follow your path. I think you are fairly unique. It appears that, if you give the people who answered here the dignity of believing that they know themselves, they won't. Certainly, the 11-year forum statistics prove that most people who pass through these doors have not focused on transition since up until fairly recently, any question focusing on HRT and SRS was moved to the TS section. Also, of all the threads in the TS section (which account for 10% of total forum threads), how many can NOT be counted as posts from people who intend on transitioning, when so many threads were started by CDers who wanted to know how they could develop breasts while not affecting anything else.

Anyway, I wish you all the best, Eryn and the best success along your journey! :hugs:

[Nefer]

That's an odd question to me, since I identify as transgender but not TS. I probably would say yes, but only eventually. My wife and I want children, but other than that I find sex fairly tedious, so that's not a deterrent for me. In truth it's mostly cultural stigmas that keep me from going that way. (Hyper conservative Christian in-laws don't help either)

[siantv2003]

Absolutely not.

My brain functions as a strange mix of the feminine and the masculine. Some days I wake up and can't get a bra and skirt on fast enough. Other days I go no farther than panties (I wear panties 24/7) to the feminine side. Just like I can't handle wearing masculine clothing all the time, I wouldn't be able to handle wearing feminine clothing all the time either. It's just who I am.

Jen

Pretty much sums it up for me

[Adelaide]

I would transition...but excluding the final pre-op. It's been my secret objectives for years. Unfortunately, my S.O. of +35 years is completely against my CDing. We have consulted therapists (separately and together) but she has never wanted to accept the result of the therapies. One therapist (having seen me dressed up) even mentioned to her that I was a beautiful woman inside/out. My S.O. walked away and banged the door...

So today, if my S.O. & family would support me, I would definitely transition (pre-op). I already have long hair (a bit longer that mid back, going to waist) and feel feminine all the time. But if they would not support me (at it's the case right now), I do not have a choice...I do not want to hurt them... but I will always hope that they will eventually change their mindset (but I sincerely doubt it).

But if supports would have been available 40 years ago (internet, group support, therapists, etc.), I would have better understood what I was feeling at the time...not being alone in what seemed "my own world" and would have transition... before getting married.

[Tracii G]

Same here if I had know you could transition 40 years ago I would have.

[Tina_gm]

Here are some thoughts of mine on this. At least in relation to myself, if not some others. Most who are going through or have gone through transition did so because they describe having to. Life became unbearable and unlivable for them. So those things which you put into your thread, the conditions which are basically just reality is a dividing line of sorts between a true TS and someone who may think if only.... The true TS who does through transition goes through the conditions you set up. Why it stops others is because either they are comfortable with being male, or perhaps the desire or need to be a woman just isn't strong enough to high bar over reality.

One good example for me would be HRT. I have and do fantasize about having a woman's body. To be able to go into a clothing store and no one knowing that I am male. To be able to not have to mask my natural feminine mannerisms or traits without it drawing any attention. But... Whoa, in order to help accomplish that I would need to take a drug that would end my sexual functioning as I know it. Yes, many who are on HRT say there are other ways of physical intimacy and that is all fine and good. But I want it the way I have it. My desire to have a more feminine body does not override my desire to have physical intimacy the way I do now. For those who are on the path to transition, they either feel it is simply worth it, and many actually want the function to stop.

I also go back to early in my own journey I started some 2 and a half years ago when going to a very good gender therapist who has no agenda. What he said was that part of being TS, a big part of what defines a TS is not how much you like or want to be feminine, but how much you dislike being male or masculine. If you are ok with being a guy, regardless of how much you like or want to be feminine, then it is not a correct path to take to transition.

[kimdl93]

This has been quite a thread. I offered an ambiguous answer early on, and I've had more thoughts since. But I think Louis CK probably expressed my thoughts best in a recent interview on Fresh Air. He observed that having children can have the very freeing effect of forcing one to think of themselves second, rather than first. Freeing because when one thinks of others first, they can let go of the childish 'necessities' of life...like, to use his example, the Monday night poker game with the boys.

My point here? Well, each of us makes a choice that in part reflects our personal wants and needs balanced (that damned implied equilibrium) against the things we care about beyond ourselves.

I live this. After a life of confusion, denial, repression and the consequences, I know myself pretty well (at last) and can say that but for...insert here...I would live my life as a woman. I may not choose HRT, FFS or SRS, but I'd live the remaining days as a woman. Aye, but there's the rub...I can't do this thing for myself if, as I anticipate, it hurts those who depend upon me.

That does not make me a martyr. It merely means that I am, at least for now, able to take the path of least resistance.

[irene9999]

I would say no since I don't identify as female when not dressed. If it was short term (ie a few weeks/months) I might do it to experience life as female but I wouldn't be interested in a permanent change

[Talisker]

Never. I am a male, and I love being a male. On the odd occasion, I enjoy looking like a woman, but to me, it's still a charade. I'm just a guy having some fun in cute dresses and heels.

Exactly how I feel. Fun playing but NO dont want to be woman full time.

[MissTee]

This thread is on a nice roll. That's good to see. Late last week I had to leave the AwayHome (where I keep a very nice CD stash) and travel to another location and be the Alpha male super hero. No dressing or underdressing, and full on testosterone to turn a business around. It worked and I felt good. Tomorrow I head back to the Away Home and am looking forward to shaving my legs, painting my nails, and chilling in femme mode for the weekend. I simply can't deny I need both and could never transition and be happy.

[ReineD]

LOL MissTee ... you make it sound so fun! I wish I had an AwayHome to go to, where I could be all powerful and turn businesses around. :D

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Therein lies the dichotomy for crossdressers that over the years became so over-compensatory and proficient at hiding their female personas, that they became supermen. By most definitions I am an extremely successful man. Our quandary is giving that up to be real, with the ensuing loss of the carefully constructed illusion and its related benefits...

[ReineD]

Shibumi, I think that MissTee was saying how much s/he enjoys the dichotomy. A lot of people do.

Are you by any chance free to dress when you want to?

[Stephanie_83]

I've certainly thought about it, and there are many days when I wouldn't mind having a sexy rack, but no - full transition is too much. And my cd'ing isn't a constant need, but comes and goes. Transitioning just raises too many questions and doesn't offer much reward.

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Reine: No, not at all, but thanks for asking. I'm extremely grateful for my wife's graceful understanding and acceptance, but she's made it quite clear there are limits. She is so wonderful and has been so supportive that I don't want to ruin a good thing, but as we have all seen here or lived ourselves, there is almost always another plateau. That may not culminate in transition, but we who have the fetish/narcissistic type of CD, the goal is perfection of the female aesthetic and that means always pushing the envelope. I temper my frivolous desire to dress with my sincere desire to make a remarkably selfless and loving woman happy, raise our children in a stable environment, and provide a good life for them.

The dichotomy is fun sometimes (see attached image) but the line between thrilling and desperately sad is a fine one. Most of the time I am successful in convincing myself I am doing the right thing. Sometimes I just really want to be pretty and dress like a woman.

Thanks

Shibumi


Shibumi, I think that MissTee was saying how much s/he enjoys the dichotomy. A lot of people do.

Are you by any chance free to dress when you want to?

[TrishaTX]

I am good as me...