hormones and functionality

[Lorileah]

In response to Quote Originally Posted by Dianne S
OK, this is a bit tangential, but loss of male sexual functioning is not an inevitable consequence of HRT. Some people can continue to function, especially once their bodies adjust to the new levels of hormones.
Reine D responded.


Not according to reports from the bulk of TSs who have been on female hormones for years, although the time it takes to do this may vary
If anyone wants to engage in a discussion about the effectiveness of HRT on various people, please start a different thread. I really would like to keep this thread on track.

So I will.

This is a fairly common misconception among people who aren't transitioning. That when you take estrogen you become totally non-functional.

Just a few thoughts that most people don't consider.

Eunuchs may have been there to guard the harem, but that didn't stop their "desires". Maybe with time the physical parts would shrink, but they still were sexual beings and there were reports of "dalliances" between slaves and the eunuchs. The king (or whatever) didn't care about that. They just wanted to make sure that the children born were theirs.

Transsexuals are still sexually responsive and receptive. You see, you really don't need testosterone to function. It may take awhile and physical parameters may not be the same (Think size...) but TS's can and DO react like males....right up until the physical part is gone.

It seems interesting to me that GGs buy this when they are sexual beings themselves who physiologically respond, albeit in a smaller yet similar fashion, to stimulation. Think analogous parts and then think what happens. No you don't see an obvious change unless you look closely, but the same change occurs. It is a fundamental part of what SRS surgeons are striving for. sexual function. We can do it!

Now it is true that how quickly and how long it lasts does vary. But when a male is 18 response and recovery time are significantly faster than at 50. Now there is where testosterone plays a part...how quickly one can become...interested.

If you ask 100 TS's here (which would not be a good idea if you value your existence) you will get results varying from totally working to not working at all.

In otherwords, don't buy that testosterone is the ONLY hormone that makes things work.

Also, so as not to hijack the other thread, I have to wonder where the line between transitioning and NOT transitioning is. So many there said they would take hormones and live with the consequences BUT they didn't want to transition. I would be very interested in hearing how you could take hormones, have surgery and even as some said change you name and not be transitioning? Please don't make this a debate over semantics, but state your feelings on where the tipping point is. In some states you need the surgery to get the marker change. Is getting the marker change the criteria?

BTW, anyone can respond.

[Donnagirl]

I tend to agree.... And I'm not sure where I fit...
I'm more than a simple happy cross dresser, (probably) not quite TS.
Hormones - yes...
Still functional - yes.... Following doctors instructions, pretty much the more you use it the better function will remain. Wife happy and wants it to stay.
Transitioning - probably not see above.
Presenting full time - eventually I think it's inevitable...
Change name - my wife recently had a mental blank and forgot my male name introducing me, she hadn't used it for so long.... It's only Donna with her...

[Jennifer in CO]

Texas 1980's While "transitioned", over time I had to get two drivers licenses. In both cases, and even though outwardly I appeared totally female, because I still had something between my legs my DL said "male". The second time I even pushed the limits of social acceptance and wore a marginal bikini top with a thin cover shirt so that the girls were big and on display.
Didn't matter.
Since I didn't have a Dr's statement stating I HAD transitioned (ie SRS) I was still "officially" male to the State of Texas. Six months later I started my transition back to the guy side anyway so it didn't matter. EXCEPT...that dang photograph now on my license that was obviously a girl and I was now trying to be a boy. THAT was more problems that using my license the other way.
So my take is its not whats in your head or body or hormones or anything else. Its when you can convince the State your in that your now the opposite sex. THEN you have transitioned.

[Lorileah]

So my take is its not whats in your head or body or hormones or anything else. Its when you can convince the State your in that your now the opposite sex. THEN you have transitioned.

so the state gets to decide? My DL says F. The state gave that...(can of worms here huh? :) )

[PaulaQ]

My sexual experiences are substantially better now that I'm on HRT. There are a lot of ways to be stimulated and fulfilled - I'm quite certain a lot more than most people who's libido's are still powered by testosterone know about. I didn't particularly enjoy having sex the way heterosexual men are generally expected to do it.

My expectation is that this is liable to be better, and I'll enjoy it more, once I've had GRS.

The downside, from my perspective, is that it can sometimes be more difficult sometimes to climax (if my mood isn't there, it's not happening). A fair amount of this is psychological - until I have surgery, it's possible for a careless partner to make me feel pretty dysphoric. (This is a fairly common issue for partnering with a trans person - you have to know and avoid triggers.) The upside is that while I have a fairly healthy libido, it's a lot easier for me to ignore it than it was before.

As for the loss of male sexual function - mine isn't all gone, but I'll certainly be glad when it is. Good riddance! It's mostly gone though - I certainly couldn't penetrate anything, not effectively. Again, that isn't a problem, it's a benefit from my perspective.

I have plenty of sexual function - I found the assertion in another thread that I did not to be pretty insulting, particularly since most of the readers of that thread are likely to have any idea that other things are possible. When you have an erection, it's very difficult to pay attention to much else. Without that distraction, so many other possibilities are available.

I believe there are multiple types of transition, which is why the issue of "when are you transitioning" is problematical to discuss. It's not a single thing:
- social transition - coming out, subsequently beginning live your life as the gender you identify as
- job transition - you deal with having a job as part of your social transition
- medical transition - you begin to take medical treatments that are gender related: HRT, hair removal, facial surgery, breast augmentation, gender reassignment surgery, etc.
- legal transition - you alter your state / federal identity documents to match your gender

Not everyone will do all of these. Not everyone can do all of these.

[Bria]

Transition is a process of moving from one state to another, for this discussion, M2F, F2M. Paula has suggested a number of logical markers and also points out that not al transitioners will tick all of those boxes.

I think that one has completed the process when THEY say that they are done, however it would seem that one would tick at least two of Paula's boxes, but I think it's each to their own. When are you happy with yourself, when are you comfortable with your position in society.

My 2 cents!

Hugs, Bria

[flatlander_48]

In otherwords, don't buy that testosterone is the ONLY hormone that makes things work.

Looking at it another way, this is approximately how the aging process works. As men age, we have less testosterone available, but as far as I know we are not producing more of other substances.


DeeAnn

[docrobbysherry]

I DO find the range of TS's confusing until I know where they r now and where they plan to end up?

Maybe we need a TS scale of 1 thru 10? With 1 being a closet crossdresser. And, 10 being a TS with fully functioning female parts?:heehee:

[LilSissyStevie]

I haven't had much "male functionality" in a while. I don't care because "normal" sex doesn't excite me in the least. For a while I tried those magic pills. They work but give me a headache. That doesn't mean I don't have sex, I just don't have "normal" AKA boring sex. There is more than one way to skin a "cat" as they say. Not everybody has my situation though. My wife is as kinky as me and has much higher libido. She's not limited to a narrow repertoire of sexual practices. So we can make sex work without whatsisname getting involved. :tongueout

[Lorileah]

OK but the question is...when is one TS? Is it when you describe yourself as a woman? I am just a bit confused here. You can take hormones, you can get a DL with gender marker change and not be TS?

Paula says
- social transition - coming out, subsequently beginning live your life as the gender you identify as So the question is now, those those people who dress 24/7 aren't TS but are hard core CDs? If they live as a woman (i.e. clothing actions telling people their name is the femme name) they are transitioning or not?
-
job transition - you deal with having a job as part of your social transition just this week ago a member here asked if it would be OK to dress at work sometimes.

- medical transition - you begin to take medical treatments that are gender related: HRT, hair removal, facial surgery, breast augmentation, gender reassignment surgery, etc. the other thread was asking that question. If you could take hormones/FFS/ Breast enhancement...are you still then a male who is dressing or is that the step to transitioning?

- legal transition - you alter your state / federal identity documents to match your gender see post#3 above. What IF your state says not without surgery...you are still transitioning right? Or do you remain a man?

OK the point here is that how we decide to do or NOT do things is confusing, not only to those around us but ESPECIALLY to our SO's. Can you see the angst that a SO has when her (husband/partner) says "Honey, I just want boobs, I promise nothing else will change" Or when you take hormones to shift body shape... and then you say "I am just a man who like looking like a woman". Isn't that confusing to anyone else? Sort of like going to a buffet and seeing what your table mate got and saying...Geez I wish I had that and then going back ti get it? If your SO said "Honey I want to grow a beard because I think they look cool...but I am still going to be a woman, however the side effects may make it so we can't have the same relationship..." Don't you see why SO's are nervous and confused?

There is no right answer but I just think some need a different perspective...

[flatlander_48]

The problem is that you would need to define an infinite number of points on the transgender scale from occasional crossdressing to post-op transsexual. Personally, I believe that to be a fool's errand...

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

taking that then, why even have the definitions? Why do some object to said definitions? Good argument for just calling everyone transgender, right? Otherwise there has to be a tipping point. Bachelors->Masters->PhD. There are lines. Same with the trades. Same with aging (albeit arbitrary):infant, toddler, tween, teen, young adult, adult, middle age...yet it is a spectrum. To me and many other TSs it isn't a spectrum, it is a we "know". But the reason for the question is that so many CDs are set in stone that they are men in women's clothing and nothing more except...hormones, or hair removal, or FFS, or the big one wanting to be with a man ONLY when dressed.

I fully understand there is no right answer here. Everyone has their line in the sand. I was just curious where that line is for different people

(not sure I like being called a "fool" either. Questions that you may not find challenging have meaning to others )

[Nadine Spirit]

Very interesting thread. My opinion is that transition is when someone has decided to live full time, basically exclusively, as the opposite gender as they have been living as. To me, what you do like HRT or GRS is not as relevant as how you are choosing to face the world. I know that what a state will put on your license, M or F, is very important to many people, but to me it has no relevance in a discussion about when one has transitioned. No state can decide such things for you.

[ReineD]

Lori, thanks for posting this. I've just changed the wording in the first paragraph of my thread from [complete loss of sexual functioning] to [partial to complete loss of male sexual functioning], to be more precise.

I went by what people have told me and what I have read in this forum. This is the basis for my statement:

1.
All three wives (that I know personally) of transitioned TSs who have not had SRS have told me there was a complete loss of sexual functioning.


2. A recent post by a transitioned TS in a Loved Ones thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?225656-SO-on-HRT&p=3710627&viewfull=1#post3710627):


"It's my understanding that there is no such thing as "low dose HRT" where one gains psychological benefits (whatever those might be, I suspect placebo in most cases) but one does not begin to alter ones chemistry and subsequently ones body. There is a threshold dose below which nothing happens and above which chemical transition occurs. If the dose is low but above the threshold it will just take longer to work its magic. This is the opinion of my endocrinologist, I asked some time ago as this question routinely comes up in the TS section in one way or another."


3. This is what I read in the Ask-A-Transsexual thread just in the last few months, in response to specific questions about sex:


"Don't touch hormones if you don't want anything affecting your "package." (#205)


"took just a few weeks to lose the "morning wood" after about 2 years it will not function at all in a male way." (#206)


"the results are variable in what happens to your body, however, the package will be affected." (#207)


"I lost my libido early on in HRT" (although has an interest in sex post-op). (#218)


"Sex is an issue for both of us and does crop up from time to time but so far we are making it work and not focusing on the physical side we are both missing (for my part the addition of decapeptyl anti androgen helped me immensely in that department!). (#223)


"Sex has been off the table for a very, very long time." (#227)


"We do have sex. It isn't like it used to be and it isn't like it will be (I am scheduled for surgery). Without details, the closest I can say it is exploratory." (#228)


"It's really nothing like having sex as a male." (#229)


4. I don't have the time to comb through each thread in the TS section to isolate all the instances I have read when people have mentioned shrinkage and non-male-functioning, but I did find one thread that discussed this specifically (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?218315-HRT-and-libido&highlight=libido). I gather the responses vary because people have been on HRT for different amounts of time.

Summary of Responses:


Tanked.


Went to nothing, is now up but in a different way than ever before.


Down then up then down and came back after SRS but very different.


Can't find my libido.


After a year, no libido.


Libido never completely went away but has been drastically reduced.


Libido changed in about 3 months. Not completely in the tank, orgasm though is out of the equation.


The physical side sleeps most of the time, and rarely wakes up for visuals anymore.


The interest is still there only less often … but happy to have less libido.


Libido went down dramatically as soon as I decided that Yes, I was definitely going to go ahead with HRT (psychological component).


Mine has been zero for quite some time.


Libido still hasn't dropped, yet tissue shrinkage has begun.


libido did drop a bit, but in many ways that was a relief.


My libido has been all over the map … I seem to be at my "best" when my T is up a little.


13 months on hrt, and my libido is MIA.


Used to be very sexual but now it is rare that I even think of it and when I do it is just a fleeting thought that lasts maybe 30 seconds.



I DO find the range of TS's confusing until I know where they r now and where they plan to end up?

Maybe we need a TS scale of 1 thru 10? With 1 being a closet crossdresser. And, 10 being a TS with fully functioning female parts?:heehee:

Dr. Harry Benjamin came up with such a scale, but I don't know how well regarded it is in current trans-circles:

http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Original/OriginalChart.jpg

[flatlander_48]

taking that then, why even have the definitions?

Definitions are the linguistic tools that facilitate communication. Without definitions, it would be much more difficult to communicate. You could say a black, round rubber device that, when attached to a vehicle, may maintain traction with the ground or paved surfaces in order to provide directional stability. Or, you could just say: Tire...


Why do some object to said definitions?

I believe it is because some people are afraid to claim their appropriate identities and that they would like to avoid the notion as much as possible.


Good argument for just calling everyone transgender, right?

No, it is a very generalized term. The next level is needed. The thought processes and behaviors of crossdressers are very different from those of transsexuals.


To me and many other TSs it isn't a spectrum, it is a we "know".

I don't understand this.


But the reason for the question is that so many CDs are set in stone that they are men in women's clothing and nothing more except...hormones, or hair removal, or FFS, or the big one wanting to be with a man ONLY when dressed.

As far as I know, no one has created a name for this. Even if one did exist, I don't think it would serve much purpose.


(not sure I like being called a "fool" either. Questions that you may not find challenging have meaning to others )

Fool's Errand = a effort with little or no chance of success; a wild goose chase...

Trying to split hairs and define all of the infinite number of variations between crossdresser and transsexual is a Fool's Errand, as I stated previously. And no, you were not being called a fool.

DeeAnn

[pamela7]

i think Lorileah is asking for non-semantic answers. Where is our boundary of TS/not TS?

I'm on the non-TS side, as i'm mostly "man in a dress", but then i have small natural moobs, and i'd like them bigger. Having had vasectomy long time ago its like a eunuch, might go there one day, but would want to keep normal sexual function as male, like the idea of estrogen for boobs, but id still say i'm male or perhaps gender-fluid in that case. Does it make me TS? not in my mind.

[ReineD]

OK but the question is...when is one TS? Is it when you describe yourself as a woman? I am just a bit confused here. You can take hormones, you can get a DL with gender marker change and not be TS?

A lot of people here have their very own personal definition of "TS", "TG", and even "CD". For example, a post-op's definition of TS is different than a CDer's who says he is TS because he wants to have breasts and hide them while in male mode. Some people think that CD refers to fetish only, and dressing to go out and blend is "TG", while some non-fetish CDers quite happily refer to themselves as CD. Even the terms "man" or "woman" are in question here at times. I've read posts from CDers who attach a conditional meaning to the term "woman" when they refer to themselves as such while dressed, but not while in male mode.

So I'm afraid it has become useless to define anyone by "CD", "TG", "TS" in this forum, if you are talking one-on-one with them. The definition might better be, "I identify fundamentally as a man, as a woman, as a mix of both genders, or as no gender". And hopefully most people will share the same definition of what is fundamentally a man and a woman. I honestly think there are only a few people who mix things up. (Parenthetically, when referring to groups as a whole in this forum I think it's pretty safe to use the shorthand "CD" for people who will not transition, "TS" for people who will, and "TG" for the community at large.)

So what is transition? I suppose this depends on a person's end point. If the end goal is to completely adopt the physical characteristics, social conventions, and change all legal markers to the sex opposite than birth, and live it 24/7, this is full transition.

If the end point is to adopt some of the physical characteristics (i.e. boobs only but otherwise presenting as male) and some of the social conventions (i.e. dressing up sometimes), or only change to "F" on the driver's license and a credit card but nothing else and retain a male name and be known as a man to certain groups of people, then this is partial transition.

For the few people whose definitions of "man" and "woman" differ from what is considered usual in our society, we cannot argue when they say they are women despite having no intention of living as one. They have the right to their own definitions.

But, we can point out that the other side of the coin is how we are perceived by others. What enables the efficient exchange of ideas in any language is having common definitions. It does no good to order a banana split at a restaurant and be served broccoli in cheese sauce, because this is the waitress' personal definition of a banana split. We live in societies that define men and women primarily by their facial appearance, their body shapes, the clothes they wear, their voices, their legal names, and the consistency of these things. All of these things are necessary not one or two of them or not some of one and some of the other. I left out genitals because few people see them. I am speaking of perceptions at large.

So a person can define themselves as a woman as much as they want to, but until they actually take the steps to undergo full transition they won't be perceived as one. If they enjoy living this way, so be it, but they cannot blame others for not thinking they are women, not even some of the members of this community. If on the other hand they do present mixed gender cues then it would be more accurate to tell people they are gender fluid; the presentation would match the label. Or they can say they identify as women but choose to live as men who dress sometimes, and allow that others will likely perceive them as males.

Sorry for the length of this post and the other.

[Sandie70]

This is an interesting thread. Certainly, for me, there is a strong sexual component to crossdressing, but I find a level of satisfaction that goes beyond the physical. There is an eroticism to dressing that I find quite exciting - something that happens within ones mind and doesn't need a physical response. Of course, I do have thoughts of carrying things to a higher level... hormones, etc., but to be honest, when I think of transitioning, I am mostly interested in feminizing myself - not fully transitioning. I can even see myself getting breast augmentation at some point. But what I suppose I'm saying is that I would be quite happy to live as a woman, but retain my male functionality. And to be completely honest, I am bi... something that greatly skews the whole equation. As I am attracted to men as well as women sexually, I find gender role changing to be a puzzle that is both daunting and pleasurable at the same time. I guess when it comes down to it, this is one of those things where you simply close your eyes and enjoy the journey. As Doris Day once sang: Que sera, sera / Whatever will be, will be / The future's not ours to see / Que sera, sera.

[PaulaQ]

We don't need definitions to define others. People need to define themselves. That is the crux of the problem here. Yeah, there are people who are binary like me - I'm a woman. Its that simple. I'm undergoing medical treatment to make my body match what my mind tells me it's supposed to be. My identity as a woman is very strong.

Not everyone feels this way, and even though such persons may be hard to relate to for most non - transgender people, they deserve to be treated with dignity.

[Teresa]

Lorileah,
Going back to your original question on hormones and functionality !
I've often thought what my feelings towards Cding be if my testosterone level dropped ? My dressing started as sexual and has remained so ! Ok I enjoy the dressing beyond that now but it is not diminishing as much as other members say, even for my age ! I've never looked into cases of how late in life it can exist, so when it does it's going to be interesting if the need to dress continues ! Maybe I'll stop completely or be like most members and find that other feelings have taken over and the need is still there even to the point of taking hormones !
I feel very much like Bruce Jenner that I've enjoyed doing the male things, and fathering of children, but those feeling are diminishing and something else is taking over !
Unlike BJ I'm in a DADT situation so my only outlet for my thoughts is the forum ! Thank goodness it exists !!!

[flatlander_48]

So what is transition? I suppose this depends on a person's end point. If the end goal is to completely adopt the physical characteristics, social conventions, and change all legal markers to the sex opposite than birth, and live it 24/7, this is full transition.

If the end point is to adopt some of the physical characteristics (i.e. boobs only but otherwise presenting as male) and some of the social conventions (i.e. dressing up sometimes), or only change to "F" on the driver's license and a credit card but nothing else and retain a male name and be known as a man to certain groups of people, then this is partial transition.


With respect to those who would like to transition, but for various reasons they cannot, it would seem that they do fit here.

DeeAnn

[Dianne S]

I believe Reine was referring specifically to male sexual functioning, which I interpret as the ability to get an erection and perform as a male.

I've only been on hormones for a short time (about 7 weeks). Although my libido has decreased tremendously, which is a good thing seeing as I'm not in a relationship, I know for sure I'm still "functional".

I have a TS friend who's been on HRT for more than one year and she reports similarly. As with everything transition-related, we need to preface blanket statements with a YMMV.

Edit: I suspect that a lot of what's interpreted as a loss of functionality is really a loss of interest. My therapist gave stats that I've heard bandied about elsewhere, that about 1/3 of MTFs continue to be attracted to women, 1/3 to men and 1/3 become disinterested in either. In my case, I don't really care if I "function" as a male or not because I'm not interested in that except very rarely when a bit of sexual tension builds up and needs release.

[ReineD]

With respect to those who would like to transition, but for various reasons they cannot, it would seem that they do fit here.

It's a question of assigning responsibility and determining who, in the end, exercises the choices.

When you say, "they cannot", the reality is that they "choose" not to. They follow their own priorities which in most cases are to maintain relationships with families, keep jobs, and not subject themselves to potentially being outcast by the communities they live in. It is still their choice. I know it's difficult having gender issues but at what point does one stop being a victim and start taking responsibility for one's own actions. If the priority was to transition above maintaining the status-quo, they would.

The exception to this would be a medical reason for not being able to undergo SRS. But, someone in that position can certainly transition fully in terms of living 24/7 and changing all the legal markers, or as many as are possible under the laws of their State.

[karenpayneoregon]

I had functionality right up to a week prior to GRS which is when I said C'est la vie to the old parts and had been using those parts for the entire time on female hormones about once or twice a month.

[Tammy Kenderson]

I want to do the right thing and use doctors for SRS, but 1) do not have the money (disabled) 2) no one will take my case. I recently had a double hernia op.

[shawnsheila]

I would like to be full time
I would like to have some minor facial surgery to look more femme
I would like to have boobs
I would like to take hormones
I want to keep my male junk still... (maybe this will change some day but currently want to keep my male bits)

I didn't start this way but have progressed to this point. I didn't want hormones before nor boobs but now i do... us humans are funny creatures ;)

[flatlander_48]

RD:

Post #25 would also be another example of "cannot"...

[ReineD]

This is a fairly common misconception among people who aren't transitioning. That when you take estrogen you become totally non-functional.

Lori, I wish I had found this earlier, but I followed a link that Eryn posted in the TS section to transgendercare.com, re the effects of hormones on male genitals and impotence. I didn't look in other parts of the website for the quality of a TS's sex life after SRS, but I'm sure it is written about in a positive way for those who are interested:

http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/resources/tmf_program/tmf_program_6.asp


Genitals
With regard to appearance, hormone therapy will produce its most marked change in lessening the size of the testes. Due to the influence of estrogen, the testes' production of testosterone and sperm will be greatly reduced.

Penile size will likely diminish somewhat. While penile skin is used for lining the neo-vagina, the amount of donor skin available is more a matter of inherent size than that of the diminishing effects of testosterone. Sexual function will decrease, but the degree of which is unpredictable. Erections may still continue, but will probably be much less frequent and long lasting, or may not be possible. Ejaculate will lessen, probably to the point of only producing a very small, clear discharge as a result of the prostate and the associated structures responsible for semen production being impeded. (See Section 9, Male Genital Anatomy)

Infertility/Impotence
Long term use of estrogens may likely result in infertility, with permanent infertility being a distinct possibility. Sexual responsiveness will likely diminish over the course of hormonal therapy, potentially resulting in the inability to achieve or maintain an erection. These effects are the basis for feminizing hormone therapy being termed chemical castration.

If the transgendered individual has any concern or desire to "father" children in the future, it is imperative that the male-to-female transgendered individual choose the option of sperm banking – having samples of their sperm frozen and stored for later use – prior to beginning hormone therapy.

[Lorileah]

There is folklore in all of this. How many "think" they will lose and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy and how many "already lost" before transition? I kind of wonder about the responses Reine listed as maybe the same we see with the "My wife doesn't..." With all our members, the numbers of that seem rather low in reality. One thing physiologically that would argue against the loss of size (to almost nothing ) is that, that is what they use to build vaginal depth...

Also, I have worked with enough animals to know that losing the T doesn't keep many from seeking or acting...castrated dogs will still mount, have erections, chase females in heat.

Personal story. I have been on a higher dose than most my friends for almost 2 years. Retested levels last week. Now the personal part, Saturday evening I was on the hunt so to speak, I was like a 16 year old boy. It sort of scared me honestly because I didn't like how I was acting. My Testosterone level is undetectable. So in my case, the T isn't the driver. The E must not be either. So I am strange. But although I really don't ask my TS friends, most have or do on occasion, go out with people, even long term. None has said they have lost all interest (libido).

But still, I am looking for when YOU did or didn't decide you were TS. There had to be a point where you said "I am" (less likely you said I ain't...) See I am still having trouble understanding I guess how one could have FFS, hormones, live 24/7, go to work presenting female...whatever and not even be nudging the TS line (in their mind). For the last few years many members here complained that Bruce Jenner should come out as TS...(I know he has now but...) why could he have not been a CD and had that electrolysis and FFS?

In RE: to "we know" I have yet to meet a TS who said, "I was doin fine then one day I woke up and BAM...I wanted to transition" From what I understand we "Knew" at a young age. Maybe there are some who don't :idontknow:? I wonder how much fantasy there is in those who reply on these boards to "would you like...".

Again no real answer. It would be individual (reiterated again OK?) but curious where some start. I get the CD only mind set. The ability to switch back and forth, the sexual/non-sexual reasons to CD...but there must be some point where going back becomes improbable or difficult

[ReineD]

I kind of wonder about the responses Reine listed

I just want to clarify that I don't like to make things up. And if I make a mistake, I am prompt to address it.

I go by what the people who have actually gone through this say: One, what the very supportive wives of three pre-op TSs have told me (in person) and two, the actual posts by TSs in this forum who have been on HRT and who shared their effects on their bodies. I cut and pasted all the responses from a certain point in time in the Ask-A-TS thread, I didn't pick and choose. I also summarized all the answers in the one thread that discussed this specifically. And I followed a link posted by Erin to Transgendercare.com and copy/pasted what they had to say on the matter.

I also want to say that I am not against transition and I hope this is not the impression I am giving. I absolutely believe that TSs need to transition in order to bring their bodies in congruence with their gender identities. At the same time, I think it is important to highlight the realities of transition to CDers when asking them if they would transition. My SO and I do belong to a rather large TG group, and I know there is sometimes the tendency to think about an idealized version of transition when fantasizing about life as a woman, which produces the answer, "Hell yeah, I'd transition in a flash" in some people. Yet, when they consider all the ramifications and their priorities, they think it through a little further and answer differently.

The reason I started the thread addressed to CDers, was to see if there was any truth to the idea floating around the forum of late that the (majority? half? a third? a quarter?) ... anyway the implication is "many" or "a lot" of CDers think about and are interested in transition.

So I hope that no one here is adverse to honesty and realities, including the bulk of the answers in that thread.



But still, I am looking for when YOU did or didn't decide you were TS.

To the second part of your OP, I think there are so many different definitions of "what is TS" in this forum, that it would be impossible to get answers with any consistency. One person might define being TS strictly by a feeling they are women even though they choose to live as a man, they do not wish to change this, nor do they want body modifications so they're happy with mild doses of HRT and no anti-androgens. Another will define being TS by going through with full transition including full electrolysis, living full time (not just outside of work), legal name change, FFS, BA, SRS, etc. And there is everything in between.

YMMV I'm afraid.

[becky77]

This is personal but I feel the need to say it to give some perspective.

14 months on hormones, my Male sex drive has completely gone (something I'm happy about). Erections are possible but uncomfortable, there is absolutely no ejaculation and if I was to it is painful. All this is happy days for me. Also I haven't had any use of that area for quite some time as there is no need or want anymore.
I'm not saying my sexuality has changed, most likely my mind is now unrestricted to my true feelings. But with the male sex drive gone I have no interest in women anymore. Read into that what you will, but it has definitely changed since hormones.

A friend who has been on hormones for over 2 years is really struggling, as she wants her sex drive and cannot maintain an erection, she cannot have an orgasm at all.

Mileage will vary but of the limited people I personally know, including myself, the hormones have had a profound impact.

[PaulaQ]

I also want to say that I am not against transition and I hope this is not the impression I am giving. I absolutely believe that TSs need to transition in order to bring their bodies in congruence with their gender identities. At the same time, I think it is important to highlight the realities of transition to CDers when asking them if they would transition.

Well, it is easy to get the impression from some of the things you post, at least if the person in question is a later in life CD with a spouse.


My SO and I do belong to a rather large TG group, and I know there is sometimes the tendency to think about an idealized version of transition when fantasizing about life as a woman, which produces the answer, "Hell yeah, I'd transition in a flash" in some people. Yet, when they consider all the ramifications and their priorities, they think it through a little further and answer differently.

How about that - I do too! Indeed, I'm part of the leadership of the trans outreach group, and when someone considers this question - "should I transition or not?" I'm often the person they end up speaking with first. (By the way, I recommend them to one of several local therapists who specialize in gender.) I also end up speaking with people about the difficulties of transition, so I have some practical experience with these matters.

And you know what? I have encountered rather few people who've struck me as being in the throws of some type of fantasy. Maybe that just doesn't happen so much down here in Texas, or maybe I am just too intimidating or something? I've spoken to a whole bunch of really desperate people though, most of whom are terrified to do anything.

That's really the piece I'm not seeing here - the happy pink fogged CD who just isn't thinking this through. They are probably out there - but how do you know this is even wrong for them? I work with quite a number of gender queer individuals who make the least passable, but binary gender conformant trans person seem like an easy sell to the public. You think trans women are a hard sell to the public? Try explaining someone who is gender queer. These people will never pass - in fact, they often have no desire to conform to cisnormative models whatsoever. And frequently, these folks are younger, having far fewer resources than many of us who transition later. Somehow though, many of them seem to make it.


The reason I started the thread addressed to CDers, was to see if there was any truth to the idea floating around the forum of late that the (majority? half? a third? a quarter?) ... anyway the implication is "many" or "a lot" of CDers think about and are interested in transition.

I've never suggested that more than maybe 10% of the folks here would transition. I think it would be a higher percentage if there were no social stigma associated with it, but it is difficult to know. Even if there were no stigma, I doubt it's the majority. But even if it were, what difference does that make? Why does this bother you?

So about that other thread. I found some of the things you said to be pretty offensive and borderline transphobic. By spelling out only the worst case scenario, I feel your post served only to tell us that later transitioners were sexless, non-passable, social pariahs. Unfortunately, that can happen to trans persons of any age, but it doesn't happen to everyone. For that matter, each person's situation, both biologically, their situation in terms of various life factors like their career, marital life, and their emotional and mental capabilities all play into their outcome in transition. For that matter, the location in which they live can have a huge impact on their success or failure.

I take umbrage at the premise in your prior post, because had you written it a couple of years ago, it would've been directed at me, before I started my transition. I was around here then. You put forward the same scenarios then as now.

Do you think the rather negative outcome you put out as the premise of your thread is even remotely accurate in describing what happened to me in my transition? And don't try the cop-out "but you're a transsexual!" because you had no real way to know that back then, and indeed, you and a number of others expressed doubt about me back then. I had a number of people though, including my own primary care physician tell me that I was going to be a rather unattractive woman.

None of the things you post in that other thread have come true for me - yet that's the only outcome you posited.

The problem with such negativity is that it can push desperate people over the edge to do something tragic.


So I hope that no one here is adverse to honesty and realities, including the bulk of the answers in that thread.

Well, that's the problem. You only gave one of the possibly realities. It's not an uncommon outcome, what you suggested, but it is by no means the only one. And even in the reality you gave, you neglected to mention that in many places there are communities and support groups that do their best to reach out to their brothers and sisters. These groups can't do everything - but at least people don't have to go it entirely alone, which was quite common in decades past. On top of that, times are changing for trans people. We have a long way to go still - a very long way - but it seems pretty clear to me that trans people are gaining recognition and acceptance publicly at a rate that is unprecedented. If a person were going to transition, right now is the best time to do this that's ever been possible during the 52 years of my lifetime. (2 years ago, although not as good as today by far, was still BY FAR, the best time to transition that I'd encountered during my lifetime.)

Times are changing, and yet you've been remarkably consistent in your views over the past couple of years, anyway.

As for the replies, you pretty much assured all the "no's" between your rather negative premise, and your exclusion of people who'd have said "yes." Hey, newsflash - a lot of people don't need to transition, and some of those who do are afraid to transition because they are scared of exactly the things you posted, whether they'll get those outcomes in reality or not. As I mentioned before - I talk to people who say the same things you did all the time.


To the second part of your OP, I think there are so many different definitions of "what is TS" in this forum, that it would be impossible to get answers with any consistency.

And those answers are anyone else's business because, why, exactly? And our need for consistency is what, precisely? So cisgender people can pass laws to regulate our existence? No thanks!

This is part of the reason I don't like the term "transsexual" (TS). It emphasizes the medical treatment that some, but not all, of us need. It encourages people to think of being trans as some type of disorder - particularly the unfortunate involvement of the psychological community and it's history of treating being trans as a mental disorder. (In fact, the current scientific thinking is that being trans is an intersexed condition of the brain.) The question "what's a TS?" really doesn't need to be asked.

[ReineD]

Mileage will vary but of the limited people I personally know, including myself, the hormones have had a profound impact.

This seems to be the consensus. Maybe not right away, but eventually.

And if I go by what transitioning TSs in the TS section have shared over the years, when a person is a woman born with a male body birth defect, it's not a big loss to have the bits be non-operational whether they are atrophied through HRT and anti-androgens, or repositioned through SRS? I know that the TSs in my SO's support group were hugely proud to have SRS. One in particular was showing everyone detailed pictures! As Lori pointed out, I gather that many TSs enjoy a different type of sexuality post HRT/SRS.

But, maybe I shouldn't even report the things I've read here and seen elsewhere. :hiding:

[flatlander_48]

And those answers are anyone else's business because, why, exactly? And our need for consistency is what, precisely? So cisgender people can pass laws to regulate our existence? No thanks!

No, I don't think that's it. Consistency comes in when we try to communicate with people outside of the LGBT communiy (and sometimes even within). If you give people too much to think about (e.g. splitting hairs over what makes a transsexual), they will get confused or worse yet, they will fall back to their original unenlightened viewpoint because we failed to make the message clear enough. Anything that distracts people from the real message is counter productive.

The other thing that can happen is that people drift off into a never-never land of superfluous minutia. As I've mentioned, I've been involved in employee affinity groups for the better part of 20 years. This is from the position of leadership and rank and file. I've seen more discussions devolve as a result of trivial points related to hyphenated names with the intent to combine ancestry and nationality, or why can you use a particular term and I cannot. All that does is defocus the conversation and a lot of time is burned up for no good reason.

The human mechanism does not like its comfort zone to be disturbed. It likes to stay where that comfort zone is the strongest. Substantive discussions about gender in general, and transsexuals in particular, can be interpreted as an attack on that comfort zone and something to be avoided. So, when these discussions come up, it is imperative that we do everything to keep them focused on the issues at hand and prevent them from drifting off into the quicksand...

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

And if I go by what transitioning TSs in the TS section have shared over the years, when a person is a woman born with a male body birth defect, it's not a big loss to have the bits be non-operational whether they are atrophied through HRT and anti-androgens, or repositioned through SRS? I know that the TSs in my SO's support group were hugely proud to have SRS. One in particular was showing everyone detailed pictures! As Lori pointed out, I gather that many TSs enjoy a different type of sexuality post HRT/SRS.

Lots of us want GRS. Lots of us don't. What difference does this make, other than for many, GRS is an unreachable dream because of financial constraints, and our health insurers frequently regard such procedures as cosmetic? (And even were that problem fixed, many of us don't have health insurance.) I know plenty of women who are quite proud they've had it. Yet I know others for whom it's not a big deal. And I know of many who may want it, but may never attain it. My belief is that such medical decisions are private, and should play no part in how we are treated by other people, including legally.

But in any case, I don't understand why you care about what's under our skirts? I mean, what difference does this make to anyone but the trans woman in question? Why does this matter to you at all? I can understand it if you felt that personally, you could not stay with your partner if they had GRS. But you seem to be considering this as some defining thing for trans women in general. I mean sure, it is a huge, life-changing deal for the folks who need it. But not everyone does. Why does it make any difference to you? It doesn't define us. I don't consider the women who choose not to, or who are unable to obtain this surgery to be less than any other woman.

I've heard some cisgender women say that we are not real women unless we have a vagina. I'd hate to have such a limited view of women - that all we are can be reduced to a reproductive organ. But I guess there's not much I can do about it if that's how they feel. Seems like a certain amount of internalized misogyny to me, though.

The really weird thing to me is that so many in the cisgender community seem to think GRS is the be-all, end-all surgery for a trans woman. For many of us, FFS can have far more efficacy in terms of improving our quality of life. You can either pass as a woman far, far better, but have some explaining to do a partner, or have a vagina, and still be called "sir" a lot of the time. For people in that situation, I'd think each person might reach different conclusions about which procedure they needed most, if their limited resources forced them to choose between them. I respect each persons decision on such matters - it's not for me to say what's right for them. And again, even having this tradeoff implies the trans woman in question is in a rather fortunate situation. Many trans women of color struggle to afford HRT, or undergo very dangerous back-alley procedures such as silicone injections.

I have no idea why our sexuality matters either, in general, whether we have GRS or not - why even bring that up?

I'm sorry, but this whole line of thought makes me feel really objectified, and seems really creepy and icky to me.

I mean look, it seems like you feel that you can define who we are based on your ideas about anatomy because you got lucky, and your gender and sex lined up. I am sorry if I am misunderstanding your meaning, but that's how this is coming across.


Consistency comes in when we try to communicate with people outside of the LGBT communiy (and sometimes even within). If you give people too much to think about (e.g. splitting hairs over what makes a transsexual), they will get confused or worse yet, they will fall back to their original unenlightened viewpoint because we failed to make the message clear enough. Anything that distracts people from the real message is counter productive.

OK, how's this for a consistent message when we communicate with the non transgender community?

"Our medical decisions about our bodies are private, just as any other person's medical decisions are private. Unless you are our medical provider, and the information is relevant to our care, it is not OK for you to ask about them. It is just none of your business. It is not OK for you to define us based on your perceptions of what are bodies are, or should be. We are who we say we are, just as it is for you. "

[flatlander_48]

Sorry, that won't work. You haven't said anything. That's the transgender equivalent of "Because I said so.". How do you expect people to support you if you don't tell them anything? You haven't given them a reason. They have no idea why people suffer enough to want to end their own lives. They have no idea of the pain caused by this incongruence.

In The Absence Of Information, People Tend To Make Up Their Own.

And that is likely the worst situation of all...

Any movement has 2 kinds of people: the constituency and the allies. Unfortunately, the way it works is that the population at large often has an easier time understanding the message as told by the allies. In effect you're saying that you don't need allies. You won't have any because you have given them no reason to pick up your cause.

DeeAnn

[sometimes_miss]

FWIW; After learning to what degree we see various substance abuse methods as potential psychological defense mechanisms in order to suppress uncomfortable topics of thought, it makes me wonder how much the sex drive is used for that purpose. We all know that there are sex addicts just as there are those who smoke or use heroin. And you can lump crossdressing in there too. Any behavior can be used to help us avoid thinking about stuff we'd prefer to avoid dealing with. But the question becomes, at what point are we doing it subconsciously, and are we ever aware of it? I don't think most people know. We just go through our day, never really aware of where the desires for particular things come from. And yet, simply by logic, every thought initially starts with an electrical impulse somewhere. Whether it be generated because of hunger, fear, lust to procreate, or to stop another thought, we usually don't know. But you can often figure it out if you take the time. As a teen male, our testosterone levels soar, and an erection is only one tiny impulse away from reality. As we get older, it takes more than that, and as exposure to stimuli that would inspire said erection becomes more rare (oh, say replace all the young, hot women with unattractive ones and you won't think about sex very much), we simply don't get turned on as often. Or as we feel better when we crossdress, say you have a rough day at work and would feel better if you could stop thinking about your boss' yelling at you, your mind pushes the idea to crossdress to the forefront and you then focus all your thoughts on pretty underwear, dress, shoes, wig, and then must consciously focus on walking in heels, then the worries about your job fade away. But in order to continue to avoid thoughts of work, your mind keeps you focused on all the enjoyable feminine things and thoughts until you later fall asleep for the night. In order to get a good night's sleep, your mind may dominate your dreams with thoughts of being a girl or thoughts of sex (remember, we do get nocturnal erections which we don't remember, so who knows why that is happening) even if you can't remember what those dreams were. And then in the morning you feel much better.
The mind of higher animals is a very, very complicated thing, and every thought, every feeling, is caused by something. Just because we don't know what it is yet, doesn't mean it's not happening. An idea might just be an irritible axon in the nervous system somewhere that's starving from poor circulation, or it could be because you know your mother in law is coming to visit with her yappy dogs. Only by introspection can we try to figure it out.

[PaulaQ]

Sorry, that won't work. You haven't said anything. That's the transgender equivalent of "Because I said so.". How do you expect people to support you if you don't tell them anything? You haven't given them a reason. They have no idea why people suffer enough to want to end their own lives. They have no idea of the pain caused by this incongruence.

I have no problem explaining this to people. I have no problems explaining my own feelings about my body, at least to some degree before I began transition. I have no problem explaining that some of us need various surgeries, including GRS, to alleviate our discomfort. I just don't see how the details of what I have or have not done medically are anyone's business. I have been, in the past, more open to talking about this, but honestly, it just takes the discussion down a fairly useless path. People need to understand we simply aren't defined by our genitals. They are irrelevant. Nobody but your partner and your physician has any idea what you have between your legs - maybe the person in question is blank down there like a Barbie doll!


Any movement has 2 kinds of people: the constituency and the allies. Unfortunately, the way it works is that the population at large often has an easier time understanding the message as told by the allies. In effect you're saying that you don't need allies. You won't have any because you have given them no reason to pick up your cause.

I don't get that. I explain all of this to allies. I just don't feel the need to answer the question "have you had the surgery yet?" For one thing, there is no one "the surgery." There's a bunch of different possibilities. For another thing, it's none of their freaking business. It just isn't.

Maybe we aren't quite talking about the same thing here? Look - I fit the classical definition "transsexual" quite well. I'll do all of the typical types of transition things that trans women do until I run out of resources, or feel just heaps better. I'm straight. I pass. My voice is getting pretty good now. I'm exactly what people expect. And that's why I try to make sure people understand that my story is no more real or valid than any other trans woman's, regardless of her medical history, passability, race, or whatever. They are women, same as me, and it just isn't up to society to define them. Because frankly, society tried to define all of us out of existence.

[emma5410]

If you are born male, and claim you are female but do not want to have a vagina, it confuses people who are not Trans. They will wonder why you want to keep your male parts if you really are a woman. You can argue all you want but that is powerful logic to them.

People can define themselves any way that they wish but if they want the rest of society to acknowledge it then they have to fight the preconceptions. I am not saying you are wrong by saying that not having GRS means you are not a woman but to many people you are stretching the definition of what a woman is. If a burly hairy person who always dresses male declares themselves a woman are they? By your criteria I would guess yes because who is to tell them what to wear or how to look. I would imagine society as a whole would disagree because you are stretching definitions until they no longer have any meaning. Something that happens all to often in the transgender community.

You could argue that it is a question of education but convincing a binary society that people are the gender feel they are when they still retain many of the attributes of the other is an hard sell.

[PaulaQ]

If you are born male, and claim you are female but do not want to have a vagina, it confuses people who are not Trans. They will wonder why you want to keep your male parts if you really are a woman. You can argue all you want but that is powerful logic to them.

That's why it's best not to talk about those parts. It's really none of their business. Their logic is incorrect. Because how do you know that any given woman you meet actually has a vagina? You really don't - you just assume they do.


If a burly hairy person who always dresses male declares themselves a woman are they? By your criteria I would guess yes because who is to tell them what to wear or how to look.

So women go around showing their vagina's all the time? I didn't think that was the case - I know anyone who wants to find out what I have better have bought me dinner and drinks first, and you know, if there's some chemistry between us, who knows maybe they'll get to find out... ;)

BTW, I started out as exactly the person you describe ("burly, hairy, always dressed in male clothes") when I first came out. What would you say to me now? Woman or not? Because all that changed, as far as you know, is stuff on the surface.

Or how about this. There's a woman in my support group. Her birth certificate says "female." She's lived as a woman her entire life. She identifies as a woman. She has a vagina. (I don't really have the heart to tell her she doesn't belong in a trans support group.) However, two years ago, she began to have terrible pain and internal problems. After extensive testing, her doctors were surprised to discover that her internal reproductive organs were partly male, and partly female, and that genetically she was male. So is she a woman or not? If not, why not? You couldn't say she was a GG - she isn't that at all. Maybe she should be arrested for using the women's room, just like they'd like to do to trans women, - the restroom she's used for her entire life because, you know, she's a woman, at least as far as she knew. There's actually a bill in my state's legislature right now that would make this poor woman use the men's room, or potentially face imprisonment for up to 1 year because of her genetics. (She's terrified of this bill, by the way.)

My point here is that really, all of this comes down to other people trying to arbitrarily define us based on obvious and visible characteristics - at least if they have access to view all of our anatomy. 99% of the time, this works. Unfortunately, if you are going to make criminals or social pariahs out of some of us, 99% accuracy really isn't good enough. Particularly when the distinction serves no practical purpose in the first place. I mean, why should a 30 second glance by a doctor be the final word on a major portion of our identities?

So seriously - people need to be educated that genitals don't equal gender. And what we have, or don't have, really is none of their business.

[ReineD]

Post #25 would also be another example of "cannot"...

Yes, of course. Finances can be a huge barrier for surgeries. But, they don't stop someone from living outwardly as a female? This might be difficult if they need a lot of surgeries to look female though. There have been many threads in the TS section about what people can do on a low budget, if someone wants to live full time. Finances and medical conditions do stand in the way for some people.

[Lorileah]

going in circles here and sniping. Thanks for those who answered. one of those we will never know questions.

the question was what was your tipping point (where do YOU consider people as TSs).