Misinformation [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Jaylyn

05-05-2015, 11:15 AM

I agree whole heartedly with your statement. I feel the one reason my wife has been accepting of my Jaylyn time has been because I am still her manly man 90% of the time. When I need to be even 100% of the time. I have reassured her over and over that I am merely a CD. I tell her I just find enjoyment in wearing the attire especially when I'm stressed or when I need to escape the world around me. I've explained many times that I love the feel of the smoothness of the nylons on my legs, the slinky ness of a particular dress the joy it brings to me of wearing heels and feeling the dress rub against my panty hose. I had a harder time time explaining why I wanted to wear my dark red lipstick and have my nails and toes painted. Only reason I could give for that was that I just enjoyed it and it seemed to go with what I was wearing.
Her main question about it all was how far I would go? I assured her I did not want to be a woman.... To only dress and feel like one from time to time. Believe me it is hard to explain the why's we enjoy this. I am not going to change sex, I actually love being her man. I love my wife enough also to accept it if she said DADT or even if she said never do that again. I would miss my time as Jaylyn but I would shut that part of me down. I practically do anyway during hunting season and when I'm out in the field working or fishing. I do some under dressing to calm the beast within but I believe I could live without any of the dressing if my wife asked me too. I sometimes wish that transitioning wasn't associated with those of us that only enjoy the cross dressing. I wish that the public understood that if a guy just wanted to wear a certain type of clothing that it doesn't mean that he is bi, transitioning, or even gay but just that he is comfortable in wearing the smooth, sensitive feelings that a certain garment produces for him. I wish that men's fashions weren't so different than women's and could enjoy the clothing and even the makeup that makes me feel the things mentioned above.

becky77

05-05-2015, 11:38 AM

You can't become TS, you are born TS.

I have always known but didn't know what the problem was, main issue being with most TS is that it either takes a very long time to admit it and face down the fear or they are so full of denial it isn't apparent. I would say I fit both of those.

To be TS is to be female in identity, to think like a woman, spending the majority of your life struggling to fit in with other males because that's what your supposed to do, if you have never questioned your inner gender identity, are happy with being male at least most of the time and like your masculinity, then very likely you are not TS. Of course the above is generalising and there are many variations.

Now there are a fair few folks that are not female identified but who do relate to looking and dressing female and they transition, sometimes these are the ones that mess it up as it's not what they expected.
I would strongly suggest therapy for anyone considering transition as pink fog is exceptionally potent, the fantasy is nothing like the reality.

The saying: What's the difference between a CD and TS? 2 years. Is utter rubbish. This will never happen. What does happen is that some people that have no idea they are TS or at least Trans enough to take it fulltime, come looking for answers and find them, then progress.
No male identified (as in happy to be male and see themselves that way most of the time) will ever want to transition unless they are ridiculously deluded or drowning in pink fog.

TS is not a CDer that has taken it to the next level, this is a myth.

Isabella Ross

05-05-2015, 11:43 AM

Being in the same camp as Jenny Bailey and Jaylyn, I also enjoy my life as a man. And I do find that the public's growing awareness and understanding of transgenderism tends to be skewed towards transitioning -- case in point, the Bruce Jenner situation just leads people to believe that any man who wants to feel feminine for part of his life must automatically want to transition. While this is true for some, I truly believe they are the minority, and that I am part of the (misunderstood) majority.

Samantha Clark

05-05-2015, 11:48 AM

I couldn't have said it better than Jaylyn. The trouble I see is that we do not have a common language, and words are used imprecisely. It would be ideal if we, and the rest of society, could all communicate clearly in a way that makes gender identity distinct from gender expression. My gender identity is male, but my gender expression is both masculine and feminine. I'm CD. A TS would have feminine gender expression, coupled with female gender identity. A very different kettle of fish in my opinion.

Unfortunately, the generic term "transgender" is being coopted by association solely with transsexual. That leaves "mere" CDrs in a no man's land [sic!].

Shelly Preston

05-05-2015, 11:51 AM

The one thing I know about being part of this forum for a long time. We don't have a one size fits all answer.

However,

Dressing can be a part of transition process.

Transition is not part of a Dressing process.

Sandie70

05-05-2015, 12:16 PM

In reading the comments on this thread, I'm reminded of what some gays and lesbians think about those who identify as bi-sexual. They think those who do so are simply lying and in a state of denial - surely they must be gay and just don't want to admit it.
Here, I sense that some have the same attitude about crossdressing... the idea that all crossdressers secretly want to transition but won't admit it.
Well, I cannot in any way speak for a single other person... but, I can speak for myself.
When I dress, I want to be a woman. I want to pass.
I wouldn't mind spending most of my time living as a woman.
But I would not transition. My choice.
But that in no way changes how I feel about letting my feminine side present itself.
The world is not simply black and white - and neither is the world of crossdressing.

LucyNewport

05-05-2015, 12:43 PM

The saying: What's the difference between a CD and TS? 2 years. Is utter rubbish. This will never happen.

I'm guilty of repeating this bit on another thread in a joking manner and I probably should have left it out.

On further reflection, I think my perspective on this issue is a bit skewed for couple reasons. I tend to move in more TS-oriented circles. Over the years I have gotten to know a large number of transitioners, a handful of whom swore up and down that they were CD when we first met. Now it could be they were always repressed TS's. Or the CDs who hang out in gay bars in village have one foot out the door already. Or it could be that they progressed from one state to the next because of some triggering life event. I really don't know.

The other reason is very personal. I can see myself transitioning. Every so often I make tentative steps in that direction. I have not gone through with it, because I find the idea terrifying, and my dysphoria has never been acute enough to overcome my fear of losing all that I love. So my standard response when asked has always been "I'm a CD" even if deep down I know that isn't the whole story. I do dislike being a "man" though - always have. So, I will take my place over in no-man's land.

Lucy

DanaR

05-05-2015, 01:44 PM

................................. ,, you are trans and don't know it , you must dump said family ASAP ( because they will understand if they REALLY love you) , transition and be WILDLY HAPPY !!!"................................. .

This is one of the things that I have never understood, dumping your family; which seems to happen often.

Beverley Sims

05-05-2015, 01:57 PM

Sherry,
You are not boring and who knows what straight is any way.?

Is there a straight text book published?

Many of us "straight" cross dressers, fantasise about transitioning and some do take the journey.

Again the decision is a personal one as to what you do with your lives.

Reading comments on this or any forum may influence a decision either way at any time.

Sarah Doepner

05-05-2015, 03:17 PM

I don't think its all misinformation. It's a lack of information or maybe unbalanced coverage of the community we are part of. Until crossdressers get a percentage of media attention that is comparable to their make up in the Trans* community, that expectation of CDs moving on to transition will be the general publc expectation. As it stands now there are 10 or 20 or more TS stories for any honest, respectable coverage of a crossdresser. That means not counting coverage of a bankrobber in a dress and wig, or is a celebrity or fraternity jock only doing it to raise money for charity or is a story about a drag queen with a heart of gold. But crossdressers try their best to stay out of the spotlight, so it's very difficult to find stories that fit the news directors bill. The story "Local Crossdresser Did his chores before hiding in the bedroom to try on that cute new skirt." isn't going to make it on 20/20 like the Jenner interview. Somehow those other dull stories will have to be known if there is any promise for crossdressers to be seen, understood and accepted.

PaulaQ

05-05-2015, 03:34 PM

I'm not sure who is saying every crossdresser will eventually transition. That's obviously ridiculous.

I apologize if anything I've said has given that impression. I think it's clearly false. I think more of you will transition than would in the general population - quite a lot more. But it's still a small minority within the forum - maybe 10% tops. I think that's still more than some would like to admit, as I've seen a number of people come forward with the notion that there's some sort of a clear cut way of predicting who will and who won't transition. As best I can tell, no such thing exists.

The comparison to the erasure of bisexuality in the gay community is a good one, and I try to be sensitive to this. Look, there is frequently a phase where gay people identify as bisexual for a time, until they come to terms with their sexual orientation. This is a real thing. Unfortunately, it leads some in the gay community to conclude that bisexuals simply don't exist. Nothing could be further from the truth.

This is much the same between CDs and some of us who transition - some of us go through a phase that looks very much like CDing. This doesn't alter the fact that many people are simply male identified crossdressers, and that's all they will ever be. I completely agree with this line of thinking.

I will say that anyone who is in transition and encourages someone else to transition because "they aren't femme enough" or some other ridiculous bullshit like that is simply irresponsible. Anyone who does this to gain status in some transgender group is insane. So I hope those things aren't common - because that would be abhorrent.

So I am wondering who is actually saying this, because I haven't observed this, and I've definitely never said all of you will transition. I simply don't believe the rather common counterpoint I have heard quite a number of CDs here - "No CD transitions! Only transsexuals do!" and while this is accurate, it presumes that just because someone says "I'm a CD, I'll never transition", that this is the reality for them. Unfortunately, it isn't always, as any number of folks here who said "I'm a CD, I'll never transition" but who subsequently have transitioned can now attest.

I guess I could shut up about this if people wanted. I mention it mainly because I read Helen Boyd express disappointment that she was told CDs almost never transition - and yet Betty did. She felt she was lied to by the community.

I am sorry if this increases marital strife for anyone, though. It's quite an inconvenient situation for us all, I know this from painful firsthand experience.

BTW, I've yet to meet someone who I thought transitioned out of the pink fog. I guess that can happen - I've probably seen something like it more frequently in the FtM community, where the barriers to entry tend to be lower than for MtF's. (You have to wonder about someone who starts taking hormones, and their symptoms of dysphoria actually increase.) I have known people who have de-transitioned for various reasons.

I mostly encounter people who are terrified to go forward with a transition, even if they really need to. I've never met so many people who've attempted suicide because they felt it was the only way out. So I've always assumed the barrier to entry for us MtF's who transition is pretty high. Gosh, it would've been nice to have been in a social situation where I felt I could've transitioned "on a lark, lost in the pink fog," as I didn't especially enjoy my own suicide attempt before I began my own transition.

I'm not sure that I agree that regret is always a reliable indicator that someone shouldn't have transitioned. Trans people face terrible discrimination, and some of us have incredibly difficult lives post transition. We get all the problems women get, compounded by being trans, and any other issues we might have - race, economic status, etc. It is entirely possible to be more comfortable in your own skin, and still hate your life because the world around you is so hostile. Some of us in the community do our best to stand up against this. I'm not sure what else can be done about it. The cold hard truth is that some of us are just screwed no matter which course we might choose. :(

Anyway, if anyone feels I have stated that I think you are all going to transition, please PM me about it, or point me to statements of mine that say that, and I'd be happy to explain what I meant, or to apologize for the miscommunication.

(BTW, I don't mean to be egocentric about all this - but I think I am one of the more frequent posters on the CD side of the forum who has transitioned. So I'd assume that if there is someone perceived to be saying this a lot, it would likely be me.)

Oh, one last thing - I agree with Sarah Charles - CDs are simply invisible in our society. If most cisgender people really understood how many of you there were, they'd crap. The only way you can counter this is to come out, and to be visible. I get laughed at by some when I suggest this, but look, I'm not suggesting anything I don't do myself. Do you think I couldn't go stealth? I can assure you that I could absolutely do this. I choose not to do this because so many around me will never have this option, so why should I get it either? I feel it's my duty to stand up, tell my story, and make the world know that women like me are real, and that we deserve to be treated with dignity.

BTW, not everyone has to be an activist, taking it on the chin like I do sometimes. Even writing to your state representative, complaining about anti-trans legislation can be an enormous aid to our cause, and help y'all in the process. You don't have to be out to help, although again, if you want public awareness and acceptance, you need to be visible. People have to know you, or they will never understand you.

ReluctantDebutant

05-05-2015, 07:22 PM

Thank you PaulaQ for the apology. But this isn't about you or any single poster on this board it is about a prevailing myth that is out there about CDers that we will all transition one day. It is not said often so matter-of-factly as "All CDers will transition one day". No it is done via more indirect comments like

"I'm not sure who is saying every crossdresser will eventually transition. That's obviously ridiculous." Thank you

followed by this:

"I think more of you will transition than would in the general population - quite a lot more. But it's still a small minority within the forum - maybe 10% tops. I think that's still more than some would like to admit, as I've seen a number of people come forward with the notion that there's some sort of a clear cut way of predicting who will and who won't transition. As best I can tell, no such thing exists."

"I have heard quite a number of CDs here - "No CD transitions! Only transsexuals do!" and while this is accurate, it presumes that just because someone says "I'm a CD, I'll never transition", that this is the reality for them. Unfortunately, it isn't always, as any number of folks here who said "I'm a CD, I'll never transition" but who subsequently have transitioned can now attest."

and this:

"I mention it mainly because I read Helen Boyd express disappointment that she was told CDs almost never transition - and yet Betty did. She felt she was lied to by the community."

this is Not Helping.
While you are factually correct, continuing to bring up instances of CDers who transition undermines the main fact that most Cross-dresser will not transition. to put it another way imagine someone saying this:

"A majority of transwomen will not be part of the sex industry. But from my own experience there's a lot of Tranny-porn out there." or "Not all blacks are criminals but they do make up a majority of the prison population"

Do you see how the important fact of the first part is undermined by the second. I know you have good intention, you don't want the minority and their SOs to be blindsided the day they realize they need to transition. You don't want to leave your transisters behind in the gender limbo that is CDing.

But such statements leave the dangerous specter of doubt in the minds of many of CDer's SO as well as the CDer themselves. That doubt can form a crack in the foundation of an otherwise stable relationship. That crack grows as the predictable progression of CDing can be seen by the SO as moving closer and closer to womanhood. The SO may panic and shut down parts or all of the CDing activity out of fear of waking up next to a girlfriend in the future. There are many scenarios but living a life of fear or doubt about the future that as a small chance of happening isn't healthy for an individual or couple. How can the CDer's own assurances that it will never happen be trusted when anecdotes of the guy who said "Never!" but did, prevail in the Media and on sites like this? It is seeing post like this and ReineD's that help reassure us and our SO's.

As for CDer's taking to the streets it is unlikely. Much of Cding is done in private for various reasons.

BLUE ORCHID

05-05-2015, 08:18 PM

Hi Chriss, That's the last thing that I would want, :hugs:
I really have the best of both worlds and I couldn't be happier.:daydreaming:

Eryn

05-05-2015, 08:58 PM

...the untruth about "every crossdresser transitions or wants to" is harmful misinformation that espoused way too frequently and loudly from people who should know better, like people in this forum.

Chris, for our edification please provide links to threads on the forum where members have expoused this information.

Since the claim is that the information is expoused "Loudly and Frequently" this should be a relatively easy task to accomplish.

My personal observation over several years is that the usual assurance given, particularly to new GG members, is that most CDers will never transition.

kimdl93

05-05-2015, 09:08 PM

the supposition that the site skews one way or another, or that cognitively and mentally healthy individuals can be so easily influenced is absurd. Sweeping and unsupported generalizations aside, From my five years of observation, it appears that people come here for friendship, for information or to reinforce their own ideas. I doubt that any of us has invested the time nor the statistical analysis necessary to pronounce the presence of a skew in any particular direction. It may be that the threads that address the topic of coming out, finding a middle path (ambiguous as that term is) or transitioning generate more interest..for whatever reason.

LilSissyStevie

05-05-2015, 09:18 PM

So I am wondering who is actually saying this, because I haven't observed this...

I was wondering the same thing. I see an occasional comment but it's hardly overwhelming. An invented crisis if there ever was one.

ReineD

05-06-2015, 01:34 AM

I think most of what she said were her own fears showing thru.

I don't understand. What am I afraid of, do you think?

To the OP, obviously I agree with you. As does my SO, and apparently a good chunk of CDers in this forum. Most birth-males who enjoy presenting as a woman may fantasize about having female body parts, and they may or may not fantasize about having sex as a woman, they may even look into HRT during the height of Pink Fog (my SO did), but they will not want to transition.

I don't know why a handful of people are pushing this idea. Maybe they cannot tell the difference between an "I wish" and an "I am" statement?

or the "your fooling yourself and your family ,, you are trans and don't know it ,

Yeah, I know.

this is Not Helping.
While you are factually correct, continuing to bring up instances of CDers who transition undermines the main fact that most Cross-dresser will not transition. to put it another way imagine someone saying this:

"A majority of transwomen will not be part of the sex industry. But from my own experience there's a lot of Tranny-porn out there." or "Not all blacks are criminals but they do make up a majority of the prison population"

LOL. Exactly. It's a clever tactic to push a personal agenda.

I'm guilty of repeating this bit on another thread in a joking manner and I probably should have left it out.

Actually, I think it was your statement that inspired me to write that thread.

I'm glad you said it. I think it's good to have a discussion about this once in a while and clear the air. :hugs:

PaulaQ

05-06-2015, 02:51 AM

Disclaimer: This (mostly) isn't addressed to those of you who disclosed your CDing to your SO in advance. It also isn't really directed at people who are out.

I know you have good intention, you don't want the minority and their SOs to be blindsided the day they realize they need to transition. You don't want to leave your transisters behind in the gender limbo that is CDing.

I have great sympathy for the cisgender women who find themselves in these situations, particularly those who had been in the relationship for a significant amount of time before the CDing is finally disclosed. So that is a motivation for mentioning that some CDers will indeed transition. It's not my primary motivation though.

If someone is able to be comfortable in the "gender limbo" of CDing - they are not my primary concern. No, I worry about the 41% of us who'll attempt suicide. Those women need to transition, and if they don't, something a whole lot worse for everyone than a busted marriage may happen.

As for CDer's taking to the streets it is unlikely. Much of Cding is done in private for various reasons.

Well then, the only stories your spouse is likely to hear then in public will involve people who transition. For example, Bruce Jenner's story. If you aren't willing to tell your own stories, why would you expect someone who transitions to tell them for you? How can I even really tell your stories with any authenticity? They aren't mine to tell. I do my best to advocate for y'all on political things. But I can't give you a voice and a face - you have to do that yourselves. If you aren't willing to do that, then sure, your spouse may well assume that transition is inevitable, because that's the only story out there. I really have no sympathy for you here.

But such statements leave the dangerous specter of doubt in the minds of many of CDer's SO as well as the CDer themselves. That doubt can form a crack in the foundation of an otherwise stable relationship. That crack grows as the predictable progression of CDing can be seen by the SO as moving closer and closer to womanhood. The SO may panic and shut down parts or all of the CDing activity out of fear of waking up next to a girlfriend in the future. There are many scenarios but living a life of fear or doubt about the future that as a small chance of happening isn't healthy for an individual or couple. How can the CDer's own assurances that it will never happen be trusted when anecdotes of the guy who said "Never!" but did, prevail in the Media and on sites like this? It is seeing post like this and ReineD's that help reassure us and our SO's.

Oh bullshit. So you expect me to help you perpetuate your little fiction that almost no CDs will transition, when most of you couldn't be bothered to be honest up front with your spouse about your gender issues? No thanks! Look - I understand why most of us don't disclose up front - I surely didnt. I feel no ethical obligation to help you spin your stories after the fact though.

While I highly doubt that anything I say is going to convince someone's spouse to end the marriage, I'm not terribly concerned if that happens. Sorry. I don't wish a breakup on any of you, I know personally how painful they are.

If someone isn't willing to consider the risks inherent in a relationship with a gender variant person like a CD, they probably have no business being in that relationship at all, and ending it may well be for the best anyway. Put another way, if your marriage is held together only by the fiction of "Oh, don't worry about that! It virtually never happens!," and is threatened by someone like me who says "yeah, that happens sometimes. Not the majority of the time, but more often than is often admitted", then your SO may not be cut out to handle this. Hey, a lot of us never gave her the choice up front to decide for herself.

Look, being gender variant is a raw deal. The world is really unfair to trans people. It's not entirely our fault we end up in these situations, but I think honesty is the best policy once the truth comes out. If the marriage ends, then it just does. Just chalk it up to the bad things that happen to people in a world where some of us have to hide who we are.

I just don't see why marriages are assigned higher priority here by some, seemingly, than the lives of trans women.

Don't get me wrong, and please understand I don't want to see anyone's marriage end. I think that's a very sad thing. But it is largely survivable, awful as it is for all involved. I feel no obligation to lie to help you preserve them, though.

Katey888

05-06-2015, 04:55 AM

Chris (and others) you are relatively new to the forum - I think it's just a phase we go through from time to time that one particular aspect of our TG world bubbles to the top and so gets discussed a lot more than usual. Honestly, there are months that go by when if you don't like shopping; are not married to a supportive wife; or don't have a walk-in dressing room for your clothes, you'd feel like you were in the wrong place... (no offence to folk with the random things I picked there - I'm particularly jealous of the walk-in closets... ;))

My point is: sit back and take in a few more months and you'll see this discussion will swing in many directions - there are many truths already in this thread and they almost all encompass the simple fact: We are all DIFFERENT in the way we do this, feel this, express this...

There is a gulf between CDers who plateau at simply dressing and transsexuals - for the old-fashioned physicists among us, I see this (very simplistically) as similar to energy levels in quantum physics... it appears to be a spectrum, but in fact there are distinct states - levels - that we reach and feel comfortable with. Some very few folk have to transition to that final state in order to feel whole and happy in themselves because their physical gender is at odds with their persona gender and they cannot achieve harmony any other way. Most of us can find some way of achieving that harmony without permanent transition, and some without much appearance transformation at all: To each their own...

Within any of this there is no right or wrong; no best or worst - there is just DIFFERENT. Different motivations, expressions, styles, circumstances, environments...

My own personal belief is that TS and CDs ARE related by something to do with our internal gender definition - but it's like zebras are related to horses... they really aren't totally the same thing... :)

And I don't see the discussion of transition being a scary or negative one. While it may be a significant ( and understandable) fear of SOs of CDers, we are also able to offer advice and comfort to folk that come here who are substantially upset by the feelings they may be having associated with GID (Gender Identity Dysphoria). Having an opportunity to see that other people also have these feelings and struggles, and that some may eventually transition is an important and supportive perspective that I don't think any other site offers in quite the same way we do here. It IS a forum - so debates happen - but there IS a huge amount of support for whatever 'level' you find yourself at... It just takes time to read, absorb and consider what it all means for each of us as individuals.

Katey x

KimBarely

05-06-2015, 06:08 PM

This is the thread that made me finally register. This is my first post.

I am so happy to recognize and be able to put a name on my feelings. PINK FOG!!! I just realized I'm a CD 3 weeks ago and came out to my wife 36 hours later. Pink fog has been epic. We both have read a ton since then, too much, and scared ourselves. I thought I might be deluding myself for not realizing that I'm TS in denial. Need to calm down. I feel such empathy for a TS's plight. How terrible to feel put together wrong. Made me feel small, like I'm just playing dress up.

I felt like a fraud. I'm aware of the pain Olympics, "My pain is worse than your pain! I don't want to hear about your little panty problem." <---Not saying I've seen anyone say this but I felt somehow unworthy of participation.

It's all our own struggles. No one's pain is anything more than their own individual struggle. I'm relieved to have found this community and realize that we all have our own struggles along the spectrum and support each other.

-Kim-

ReluctantDebutant

05-06-2015, 08:03 PM

PaulaQ, I did not mean to place responsibility of this "all CDers will transition" myth solely on you. On the contrary I wanted to use your quotes ( a sin of convenience) to show a myth or stereotype can enter the collective consciousness and get passed around without anyone directly stating the myth. No single person is responsible. It is a dramatic fact about a minority of a minority that gets more attention than the majority of the minority. I am sure you know plenty of examples that affect the trans community.

Well then, the only stories your spouse is likely to hear then in public will involve people who transition. For example, Bruce Jenner's story. If you aren't willing to tell your own stories, why would you expect someone who transitions to tell them for you? How can I even really tell your stories with any authenticity? They aren't mine to tell. I do my best to advocate for y'all on political things. But I can't give you a voice and a face - you have to do that yourselves. If you aren't willing to do that, then sure, your spouse may well assume that transition is inevitable, because that's the only story out there. I really have no sympathy for you here.

The Bruce Jenner thing that's just tabloid stuff, no one seriously looks for facts there. Actually from my POV Jenner's story seems to garner more "so what" comments then negative reaction which I see as positive. But Crossdressers.com should be a better source of information than a tabloid, it is, but not when notions like "All/most CDers will transition" remain in the air. It is just nice to have a thread or two clear the air. I don't believe anyone has said they need you or any other transperson to tell our stories for us. You folks have enough on your plate. We can do just fine telling our own stories, if you could just hold back on the "you might transition" interjections from time to time. :)

Oh bullshit. So you expect me to help you perpetuate your little fiction that almost no CDs will transition, when most of you couldn't be bothered to be honest up front with your spouse about your gender issues? No thanks! Look - I understand why most of us don't disclose up front - I surely didnt. I feel no ethical obligation to help you spin your stories after the fact though.

Our little fiction that almost no CDs will transition? It was you who wrote this, "I think more of you will transition than would in the general population - quite a lot more. But it's still a small minority within the forum - maybe 10% tops." Do you not believe your own words? Do you believe that a majority of CDers here are "spinning stories" to their SO's about transitioning? I wouldn't want anyone to lie I just want them to stand by their statements

I just don't see why marriages are assigned higher priority here by some, seemingly, than the lives of trans women.

Don't get me wrong, and please understand I don't want to see anyone's marriage end. I think that's a very sad thing. But it is largely survivable, awful as it is for all involved. I feel no obligation to lie to help you preserve them, though.

Wait? What? Who put marriage and the lives of trans woman on the scales to be balanced against one another? This isn't about the probable >10% who may transition this about the 90% of CDers and there SO's who could be affected by misinformation about their probable future. Marriage and relationships are likely to be the biggest thing at risk in their scenario. That is the higher priority because it isn't up against the lives of trans-women.

Lie? How, by reassuring people that you only believe the numbers of transitioners to be >10%? I know you have stated that but forgive me some of your other statements make it seem you don't 100% believe that.

Eryn

05-06-2015, 09:13 PM

...On the contrary I wanted to use your quotes ( a sin of convenience) to show a myth or stereotype can enter the collective consciousness and get passed around without anyone directly stating the myth....

That wasn't the OP's assertion. She said:

...the untruth about "every crossdresser transitions or wants to" is harmful misinformation that espoused way too frequently and loudly from people who should know better, like people in this forum....

Nothing in her statement indicated that the "untruth" was not explicitly stated. In fact, Chris said that it was stated "frequently and loudly" which indicates that there was no subtlety at all.

Chris hasn't provided the requested links to the threads where she says this happened, but I'm sure that she will do so soon when she reads this thread. She hasn't been logged on since yesterday.

PaulaQ

05-07-2015, 01:20 AM

It is a dramatic fact about a minority of a minority that gets more attention than the majority of the minority. I am sure you know plenty of examples that affect the trans community.

Not really. Many of us are very nearly invisible. That kills quite a lot of us, if you must know. Ask the trans men with HIV that no one bothers to test, or the trans women of color who are murdered - and no one bothers to do much about it. Oh wait - you can't because they are dead.

The Bruce Jenner thing that's just tabloid stuff, no one seriously looks for facts there. Actually from my POV Jenner's story seems to garner more "so what" comments then negative reaction which I see as positive.

Did you watch it? I thought his story was credible, and matched to some extent other late transitioners I've known who started out as crossdressers and then went in and out of transition over the years. I thought the educational material presented with the Diane Sawyer interview was presented very well.

But Crossdressers.com should be a better source of information than a tabloid, it is, but not when notions like "All/most CDers will transition" remain in the air.

Two years ago, when I joined, people still argued about the validity of Ray Blanchard's theories. It was pitiful.

It is just nice to have a thread or two clear the air. I don't believe anyone has said they need you or any other transperson to tell our stories for us. You folks have enough on your plate. We can do just fine telling our own stories, if you could just hold back on the "you might transition" interjections from time to time. :)

Actually - you said you weren't going to tell your own stories (see below):

As for CDer's taking to the streets it is unlikely. Much of Cding is done in private for various reasons.

I mean, you said it, not I. If you meant tell your stories here - well, ok. I guess that's something. Me, and hundreds of other trans people were interviewed by local news organizations after the Bruce Jenner special aired. Somehow, I feel that TV may be more compelling to many than an internet forum they've never heard of before their spouse comes out to them. (My own ex-wife refused to even look at this site. I won't say what she said about the people here because it wasn't very nice, and it wasn't fair, since she'd never visited here.)

Do you believe that a majority of CDers here are "spinning stories" to their SO's about transitioning? I wouldn't want anyone to lie I just want them to stand by their statements

I think that fear and denial run pretty thick here. I know that crossdressing groups, Tri-Ess in particular, had a long history of discouraging or barring members who transition, because in my opinion they were terrified of how their spouses would react to these things. (They also didn't allow CD's who had relationships with men.) Over the couple of years I've been here, I've observed plenty of forum-goers who really seem to dislike those who transition. (There is plenty of homophobia here too.) There have been several who've been banned because they were just too vocal about this. There are a lot of frightened men and women on this forum, in my opinion. The big difference between this place and a Tri-Ess group is that they make a place for people who transition here - although there has been, from time to time, animosity between the two groups.

Wait? What? Who put marriage and the lives of trans woman on the scales to be balanced against one another? This isn't about the probable >10% who may transition this about the 90% of CDers and there SO's who could be affected by misinformation about their probable future. Marriage and relationships are likely to be the biggest thing at risk in their scenario. That is the higher priority because it isn't up against the lives of trans-women.

Yes, it is. There are a number of folks who like to preach doom and gloom about transition. It's all to easy to read such things, and give up hope. Unfortunately, desperation kills quite a number of us each year.

I'll say it again, if something I say on a forum breaks your marriage:
1. Very few divorces are fatal, as far as I know
2. It probably wasn't going to work out in the long run
I am sorry if it happens, and if it does happen, that is, your SO comes to you and says "Geez, I'm terrified of that stuff PaulaQ is saying - I think you are going to transition!!!!", then please contact me, or have her contact me, and I'll do my very best to alleviate her worries, or perhaps even edit or delete the remark in question that caused such a dispute. I do sympathize that y'all want to keep your marriages - I don't especially want to see them end.

I'm sorry, but I've watched many examples on this forum where CDs would comment to someone who was expressing suicidal ideation that they "weren't a TS", "consumed by pink fog", "too old", "selfish" etc. I have referred several of these individuals to gender therapists in their area, and some of them have subsequently transitioned. When I talked with some of them - I give out my private email and phone number quite a lot to such people here - they were very, very desperate women. I can't tell you their lives are easy - transition is really hard. But they are alive. This is the only reason I stay on this forum.

Lie? How, by reassuring people that you only believe the numbers of transitioners to be >10%? I know you have stated that but forgive me some of your other statements make it seem you don't 100% believe that.

I said 10% or less. It would be much easier to sort all of this out if:
- the world let those of us who were going to transition do it when we were kids, like many of us wanted to do
- the world let CDs be open, you could find women easily who were OK with a CD spouse, and since you didn't transition when you were young, odds were way, way high that you never would.
But the world isn't so nice to us, so it's all a big convoluted mess.

I don't think it's a super-high percentage, simply because while I know quite a lot of women who originally identified as CDs before transition, I know lots of women who did not identify that way. If most of you transitioned, you'd comprise the vast majority of the trans community. But as best I can tell - and again - our statistics on all this are weak - you don't. By the same token, I know you aren't super-rare, because I know a LOT of trans women who did identify as crossdressers prior to transition. So 5%-10% is my SWAG on this. Given that 0.3% of the general population will transition, 5%-10% is a much higher risk of transition than the non-CDer presents to their spouse.

If you think my motivation for being here is that somehow I take some sort of joy, or get some sort of validation from people here who ultimately transition, then you are sadly mistaken. Look, I spent the first part of my evening talking to a rather desperate and lonely trans woman who came to visit us at the Resource Center. I held this woman's hand while she wept. I had to pick this woman up off the floor after she fainted, and we gave her food and water. I am well aware - I suspect far more than most of the denizens of the CD side of the forum - just how hard this is.

You think I want you people to transition? Hah! I didn't even want to transition - frankly, I'd rather have been born a cisgender woman with cancer - you name the type! But I didn't get cancer. I am trans, instead, and had I not transitioned, I'd surely be dead. But what I do know is that as hard as this is, there is hope now, there is treatment, and there are communities and support organizations that give many of us a fighting chance. We are making strides on acceptance in society. We are making strides for equal rights. On top of that, not all of the stories are tragedies. There is reason for hope - but there are also no guarantees.

I'm sorry for all of you who's spouses and SO's have a hard time dealing with whatever gender issues you face. However, if your biggest problem is that your wife is really nervous about your gender issues, then as much as that sucks, you are actually pretty lucky. I don't mean to minimize this - the day I came out to my wife, and realized that we were highly unlikely to make it was a horrible day. However, it was only the second worst day of my life.

char GG

05-07-2015, 05:23 PM

Katey888

05-07-2015, 05:58 PM

char GG - I don't think everyone knows who they really are when they get married - think of this another way:

Around 50% of first marriages end in separation and/or divorce... why did they get married if they weren't in it for life?

Most of those marriages end through a cause that has nothing to do with being TS - but society (historically) has placed such stigma on trans people that they feel pressure to conform to gender stereotypes and some folk (probably particularly strong-willed ones) are able to subvert their real feelings - often at considerable psychological cost to themselves.

People change, grow, learn more about themselves over time. Should someone not get married because they fear they may unfaithful to their spouse in the future? Some of them probably know it... it doesn't stop them. While your values may hold marriage in it's traditional high esteem, I'm afraid a lot of western society no longer holds those same values... :thinking:

Katey x

Lorileah

05-07-2015, 06:02 PM

Question for those who transition:
I am fairly new to this forum so forgive me if this question has been answered:

Why did you get married in the first place? I'm sure a man doesn't wake up one morning and say "Eureka, I'm not a man, I'm a woman!". There must have been signs all along the way. :idontknow: A lot of problems could have been avoided if a person who has gender identity issues would have remained single or told their SO before marriage so that she/he could have made an informed decision.

Glad you are here and being new, you surely have many questions. After you have been here for awhile the answers to this will be fairly constant. I will answer this briefly, but this may actually be better as it's own thread.

Many TSs here had societal "issues" that told them that being married would be the correct thing. We are told, almost from birth, that the circle of life includes getting married and having a family. Yes, TSs do tend to know early on, most know before marriage, but then we have those around us pushing toward getting married. Some thought the TS would go away and until a few years ago information to the contrary wasn't readily available. Some fell in love with the woman of their dreams and didn't think that the Ts side would overwhelm their lives ( have been married. My wife figured it out LONG before I told her, but then she was a very astute woman). 50 plus years ago, the gay community did the same. They called them "beards" and many even had children from that union. It was expected of a man.

But the overwhelming reason SOs aren't told is fear. Fear of loss of someone you love. Fear that you will be seen as gay. Fear that your world will crumble around you because of lack of understanding. The question may be more red herring than you think. 50% of marriages end now in divorce. So the forever and ever amen part isn't true for a lot of people. Ideally everyone would marry for one reason alone...love. But my belief is that many marry for societal, financial and psychological reasons. After all it is the "norm" isn't it? I am a strong proponent for "tell early tell often" in a marriage. But 20-30-40 years ago, it just wasn't done. In modern times, every TG SHOULD bring this to their intended's attention and allow her (or him) to decide about getting on this ride.

Now back to the OP:

Was it the intention to rile the TS faction? We don't recruit or push anyone to transition. Some are vocal about being seen and known in the community (like I am) and just as many would be very happy to not be seen at all. We discuss (frequently) here the terms. No one, that I can remember, has ever called it a progression. It is a spectrum.

And taking the old saw about what's the difference to heart? Well we all know it isn't true...usually. But many of "us" need the time to reconcile and come to peace with who we are. So there may be an appearance of progression for some (me included) but as questioned above, we didn't wake one morning and say "I am TS" many of us fought with ourselves for years and years. We didn't have role models. we didn't have people to help us follow this path. We were told we were sick, perverted, strange. And really who wants to be those? So we keep in in...until we can't keep it in. Thus giving the illusion that we grew from CD to TS. Right now, on this forum there are some who are still fighting this battle. There are those who will decide, even if they are TS, to not pursue that but dressing, in some fashion may be an outlet for them.

We don't need to have infighting with each other here. We are small as it is and dividing will not make us any stronger What you see here is nothing new. In civil rights it was and still is the same. People who declared "I am more____________than you are". We should be working to stop that "think".

kimdl93

05-07-2015, 08:04 PM

I have to second Lori's comments above. And I would hasten to remind forum readers that every thread is not going to contain the message you want for yourself or for your SO. There are so many different voices here and discordant utterances are inevitable...with the sense of discord determined by your personal preferences and prejudices.

That word progression popped up again. To the casual observer, perhaps ther seems a progression. For the SO of a newly out CDr, it may seem like progression when one realizes it's OK...or at least tolerable to ones SO. Think of the kid allowed to play with his dad's train set for the first time....except this time it's mom's make up. It may never go beyond that, but during those heady first days of revelation, it may seem like a lot more than the average SO expected.

For some of us, however, and it may be statistically few, the data is sparse, it's not just a new toy. Let me use myself as an example. I knew something was 'different about me' from as early as I can remember...and I can remember the emotional fragments of episodes that occurred when I was less than 24 months old... But being born GM, having older siblings and a whole universe that evidently didn't approve of whatever that difference was, I learned, like many of us learn, to suppress, repress, and deny that difference.

It took decades, more decades than some of you have lived, to come fully to grips with who I am, to unburden myself of all the baggage that comes with lifelong denial. Yes, I did tell my present wife before we were engaged and yes, my first wife came to know th truth, perhaps in much the way Lori's wife knew early on. In neither case was it an obstacle to our marriage...mostly because both were intuitively aware that it didn't make me any less reliable and fulfilling as a partner.

People may read bits and pieces of my story or other people's stories, as expressed in brief posts here, and see therein the feared progression. I submit that more often than not, it is revelation, not progression. The revelation of that which has been buried, seemingly fossilized, sometimes for decades. Gradually, life experience, love and even professional counseling may help erode that overburden and reveal the true person beneath.

I'm certain that stories like mine, Lori's and others may be unsettling to a partner having difficulty understanding her CD spouse or loved one. All I can say is that there are tens of thousands of other stories that have a different ending.

ReluctantDebutant

05-07-2015, 08:27 PM

Eryn

I was responding to this: "I'm not sure who is saying every crossdresser will eventually transition. That's obviously ridiculous." from #20, PaulaQ. My point is that no one person has to say it directly for a notion to get out there.

When I first joined this forum I had a thought to myself that how tragic it would be to have an average CDer lose a wife over her mistaking him for an eventual trans. And also thinking that it would be equally bad if not worse for an eventual trans being married to a woman who saw it as just a fetish. This can only happen when both believe misinformation.

I posted to this thread because this "every crossdresser transitions or wants to" notion got to me at various times when I was cross-dressing. To say the least it would get me down, it was mostly just annoying, it made me have a worry about the future I didn't really have to have in the end. I don't think I have to tell anyone here how hard it is for a CDer to figure out the whys and "where is it going"s of their dressing. It can be frightening and depressing enough alone. I can only image what it is like with a SO involved. Thoughts of transitioning being like a ticking time bomb waiting to go off sometime in the future don't help in the least. I don't know the numbers of those who have felt this way or how bad it got for them or what tragedies did or did not befell them. This is not about facts and reason it is about emotion. This is odd for my because I like to argue from reason but I can't help but sympathize, nay empathize with those who have or will feel those doubts unnecessarily. A few here have responded who have felt some sting by the "every crossdresser transitions or wants to" myth. The number may be small and the sting not fatal (this isn't a Pain Olympics like Kimbarely said) but it is affecting people so something about it is real even though no one said anything.

This isn't as tragic as
trans men with HIV that no one bothers to test, or the trans women of color who are murdered - and no one bothers to do much about it. Oh wait - you can't because they are dead.
but I haven't seen anyone make that assertion. What does it have to do with the question what does it have to do with the topic?

Did you watch it? I thought his story was credible, and matched to some extent other late transitioners I've known who started out as crossdressers and then went in and out of transition over the years. I thought the educational material presented with the Diane Sawyer interview was presented very well.

I did not watch it I do believe Jenner's story to be credible. I meant tabloid from the aspect of seeing Bruce's picture of at least 3 magazines every time I go shopping for the last several weeks. I have yet to hear any negative comments about him.

Two years ago, when I joined, people still argued about the validity of Ray Blanchard's theories. It was pitiful.
Reading Blanchard's theories helped me quite a bit actually. I agree He was off about it being a motivation to transition but it help enlighten me to what might be motivating CDing.

Actually - you said you weren't going to tell your own stories (see below):
I mean, you said it, not I. If you meant tell your stories here - well, ok. I guess that's something. Me, and hundreds of other trans people were interviewed by local news organizations after the Bruce Jenner special aired. Somehow, I feel that TV may be more compelling to many than an internet forum they've never heard of before their spouse comes out to them. (My own ex-wife refused to even look at this site. I won't say what she said about the people here because it wasn't very nice, and it wasn't fair, since she'd never visited here.)

Actually I said I think us taking to the streets is unlikely. And Yes telling our stories here on this forum is what I meant. It is just my observation that the CD community is doing well without a lot of activism. I can foresee a disagreement coming. If you want my further views on this PM as to not go off this thread's topic further.

I think that fear and denial run pretty thick here. I know that crossdressing groups, Tri-Ess in particular, had a long history of discouraging or barring members who transition, because in my opinion they were terrified of how their spouses would react to these things. (They also didn't allow CD's who had relationships with men.) Over the couple of years I've been here, I've observed plenty of forum-goers who really seem to dislike those who transition. (There is plenty of homophobia here too.) There have been several who've been banned because they were just too vocal about this. There are a lot of frightened men and women on this forum, in my opinion. The big difference between this place and a Tri-Ess group is that they make a place for people who transition here - although there has been, from time to time, animosity between the two groups.

I don't know too much about this to form an opinion. All I can say is this historically it is the groups that are the closest often fight more then those that are the furthest apart especially over the minute differences. the bloodiest wars are civil wars and that includes the 2 world wars which some historian have referred to as European civil wars.

Yes, it is. There are a number of folks who like to preach doom and gloom about transition. It's all to easy to read such things, and give up hope. Unfortunately, desperation kills quite a number of us each year.
You don't exactly paint a rosy picture yourself. But isn't it the point for it to be a difficult decision ? To catch only those who really need it and keep out Pink fog addled CDers?

Paula I get it you don't wish us CDers ill and that your main goal is to help those who are like youself

ReineD

05-07-2015, 09:40 PM

Now back to the OP:

Was it the intention to rile the TS faction? We don't recruit or push anyone to transition.

I'm afraid I started it all (the OP referenced my thread in the first sentence). I certainly didn't do it to rile anyone. But I've also been sensing a growing trend in the CD section, by some TSs who insert the word "transition" in the same sentence as "CDer" quite frequently. Eryn asked for proof and links to specific threads. This would involve re-reading a lot of older threads and I for one do not have the time to do this right now. But, I can certainly keep a look out and accumulate a list of instances from this moment on, that I can post at a later date.

But, I do remember reading stories, for example, from new GGs in the Loved Ones section, who understandably take it their husbands are "wanting to be a woman" (simply because this is usually a wife's first understanding ... do you want to be a woman) and having some of the TS respondents just taking it for granted that their husbands are going down that path without even having heard from the husband! Or there was a recent thread about CDers "clustering" around all the TSs at a CD meeting because they were all thinking about transition, with a tongue-in-cheek comment from a member about being careful to not make all the GGs nervous! Or when members sometimes post in the CD (and not the TS) section about how to deal with aspects of obsession, and having it be insinuated the OP might be TS. There is a difference between the obsession that some CDers experience, and Gender Dysphoria.

So anyway, I agree we should all get along here, and groups should not isolate themselves to the exclusion of others. We need to respect each other, and this means recognizing and respecting the differences between GD and non-GD. If any CDer were to go into the TS section and tell everyone there they are not TS but in huge Pink Fogs, they'd be shot down in flames! :p

So we keep in in...until we can't keep it in. Thus giving the illusion that we grew from CD to TS. Right now, on this forum there are some who are still fighting this battle.

I agree. There are people who wonder whether or not they are TS, and who are trying to keep it all together as CD. But, it is THEIR struggle, it's not up to some of us here to tell them they are TS and "it's OK", since no one really knows, do they. As you say, it is an illusion that people grow from CD to TS and in my opinion, it does more harm than good to try to convince people they should go on a certain path before they have even decided what their path should be.

This forum is a wonderful resource. We do have a TS section that everyone knows about. The people here who struggle with their identities to the point of wondering if they are TS, are completely free to post there and if they don't, then logically we can assume they do not think of themselves as TS.

The recent young TS who tragically killed herself (age 17 Leelah Alcorn) knew she was TS. She KNEW she wanted to transition. She killed herself because her parents wouldn't allow it for religious reasons, and at her age, waiting until she could afford to do it on her own appeared an eternity. She was not struggling with trying to figure out who she was. She KNEW who she was.

So I agree, TSs know all along at some level, and it's not about the clothes, or fantasies of having sex with men, or the euphoric or gleeful feelings of panty hose on freshly shaved legs, or feeling frustrated because a wife does not want to participate. And it's a mistake to approach people who are dealing with the obsessiveness that the CDing can be, especially when they cannot dress as much as they would like to, and make an assumption that it is GD when the member in question has not even thought about, according to the GD criteria, "a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender".

Tracii earlier said that maybe I'm focusing on this topic because at some personal level I am afraid. I asked Tracii what she thinks I am afraid of, and I have not yet received an answer. So I can only assume that Tracii thinks I am afraid my SO will transition. Well, I am not. We are older, we have separate lives and finances, it is a second relationship for both of us, we have no children together, and if my SO should transition, we would still be friends. I'm just not sure whether I could continue a romantic relationship because I have, so far in my live, never been attracted to women.

I do care about the issue though, because for a long time I was hugely involved in the FAB section and I know how difficult it is for CDers and their non-understanding wives to navigate through the CDing. It is my position that couples can be happy and for years I've done my bit to try to explain the CDing to the wives, and try to present the wive's position to the husbands, in the hopes that they would create a bridge between them. This process is complicated when the CDer does not want to transition, but the wife thinks that he does. It just seems odd to me that some TSs don't seem to understand the difference between crossdressing and GD, while other TSs seem to understand it very well.

:chatterbox: Ugh. Another long post. Sorry.

Princess Chantal

05-08-2015, 09:24 AM

Thank you Reine for caring so much on this topic.

I actually had initially typed my experience when I first stepped into the local transgender community which would have described the effects of these type of "guiding" comments. Just say I was overwhelmed and was walking blindly to the transitioning light in most part due to the helping hands.
(but ended up deleting it as I hate how my words get so picked apart in this section)

Badtranny

05-08-2015, 12:49 PM

another thread I was ignoring that turned out to be far more interesting than I expected.

The only thing I have to say is the greatest bit of misinformation ever propagated on this forum is the concept of a linear scale with CD on one end and TS on the other. I kinda like Katey's idea of 'levels' but I'm not even sure about that.

My history has been pretty well documented here and I'm on record as not growing up as a cross-dresser. My entire cross-dressing career lasted maybe 2 years before I pulled the pin on the Tranny Grenade(tm)
I grew up thinking I was gay. Why did I think I was gay? Well in my young mind any boy who wants to be a girl must be gay.

It was this forum (specifically the TS) that finally gave me the perspective that I'd been lacking, AFTER I'd already come out as gay. I know that there have been lifetime CD's that have eventually transitioned but I cannot identify with them. I really don't understand the concept of a straight male cross-dressing with no desire to drop the 'man act' altogether. The kinky stuff I can understand, I totally get why a dude would get a boner in panties and want to dress ****ty for bedroom play. Dudes are just horny and they get turned on by almost anything feminine. Maybe there is a scale in that regard, with Kinky on one end, and Ladies who Lunch on the other but I can promise you that none of that has anything to do with me.

Women's clothes are simply not part of the equation. It is fun to dress up sometimes, but I enjoyed dressing up as a man as well. It was fun to wear a nice suit with nice shoes and a great tie, just like it's fun now to wear a cocktail dress and maybe even hose with some strappy shoes. Obviously my everyday life is decidedly not dressed up.

My life would be a horrible disappointment for the typical CD.

There is no continuum. There is no scale of intensity that ends in TS. There may be some CD's that eventually face the truth of who they really are, but I really don't think the cross-dressing had anything to do with it.

PaulaQ

05-08-2015, 03:22 PM

So I agree, TSs know all along at some level, and it's not about the clothes, or fantasies of having sex with men, or the euphoric or gleeful feelings of panty hose on freshly shaved legs, or feeling frustrated because a wife does not want to participate.

The narrative that we all know for all of our lives simply isn't true. Many of us are miserable, and it takes us quite a long time to sort out what in the hell is going on with us. Some of us have clues - like crossdressing, or other behaviors or expressions. Some of us have a very strong idea of exactly who we are, from a very young age. My boyfriend, for example, was one of those kids. He never lived a day in his life as a woman. He asserted that he was male from about the time he could dress himself. Some of us have no clue other than a horrible feeling of "wrongness" - like the entire world is just off somehow, that our bodies are off, that we can't relate to people seemingly as others can. All of these narratives, and many others, are valid.

The trouble with a lot of the "I always knew" narrative is:
- it's sometimes used to delegitimize the stories of older transitioners
- it greatly understates the difficulties of figuring out, and having the courage to assert something that everyone else you know will tell you is patently false - and that your own eyes tell you can't possibly be true. For many of us, coming out to ourselves is difficult in ways that non-trans people will never understand.

I found your use of Leelah Alcorn to make your point to be quite offensive. How dare you.

If you think that I have any interest in the folks here who seem to be captivated by the fantasy or the sensations of crossdressing, or belief that such people need to transition, or that there is some sort of natural progression from CDing to transition, then you mistake me greatly. (There are narratives like that, actually, but they are extremely uncommon in the MtF world, in my experience.)

If a CD is mostly having fun with all this, I don't tend to want to talk with them. Indeed, when I have talked with cisgender women on this forum who are concerned about their spouse's CDing, and transition, I point out that the positive things, the stuff you can see - frequency, extent, sexual nature of dressing, none of those matter, really. The stuff women here need to worry about is the negative stuff - things such as anger, depression, anxiety, feelings of pointlessness, suicidal ideation - there's really quite a lot of things that are, unfortunately, probably locked out of sight in your spouse's mind if they are someone who needs to transition. Many of us are good at hiding these things. (By the way, not all of us who need to transition experience those types of issues, and there are many other things I didn't mention. I am mainly concerned about those who are so desperate that they might hurt themselves.)

It just seems odd to me that some TSs don't seem to understand the difference between crossdressing and GD, while other TSs seem to understand it very well.

I think that cisgender people should be very careful when talking about gender dysphoria. This is something you literally are not capable of understanding because it is nothing like any feeling or emotion a person might have. It's symptoms, both direct and indirect, are varied, and often hard to spot - all the more so because many of us are taught from a young age to hide them.

You don't exactly paint a rosy picture yourself. But isn't it the point for it to be a difficult decision ? To catch only those who really need it and keep out Pink fog addled CDers?

Paula I get it you don't wish us CDers ill and that your main goal is to help those who are like youself

No! The point is for it to be not as difficult of decision as it is! Most of us are in life circumstances that make this an incredibly difficult decision. I seriously considered, and ultimately attempted suicide, rather than transition. Some of you folks still questioned whether or not I was just a pink-fogged CD. I've seen this a number of other times here. For the majority of us who transition, we face incredible obstacles, particularly as we enter transition:
- loss of jobs and careers
- loss of spouses, family, friends
- social isolation and stigma
Literally everything about the world I grew up in told me that I could not possibly be a woman. And yet, here I am.

That 41% of us who are trans attempt suicide tells me that this is too hard. What is so difficult about understanding that?

Here's another point that seems to be difficult for people to understand:
Crossdressing from a young age is a common symptom for someone who's TS.
Crossdressing from a young age is a common symptom for someone who's a CD, who will never transition.

Some other points that seems to be lost on folks:
- Gender dysphoria tends to be episodic for many of us.
- Crossdressing tends to be episodic for many CDs

- Gender dysphoria never goes away.
- Crossdressing never goes away.

- Trans people often hide their feelings of gender dysphoria
- Crossdressers often hide their need to crossdress.

- People with gender dysphoria often feel needs to express their internal gender in some way, and become anxious, depressed, or angry when they cannot. Sometimes to levels where they become dangerous to themselves or others.
- Crossdressers often feel the need to CD strongly, and when they can't, become anxious, mildly depressed, or angry. These feelings are widely reported here.

If you'll notice, there is a lot of similarity between folks who experience gender dysphoria, and crossdressers. That isn't suprising, because some number of us who are experiencing serious gender dysphoria start out crossdressing. The final couple of points I made differed in severity. This is a serious difference.

The real difference, the person's internal identity and sense of gender, is not visible to anyone other than the person in question. And it can be confusing for someone who's trans to sort this out.

There is a tendency for people on this forum to try clearly differentiate between a CD who'll never transition and a TS who CDed before transition. That's easy enough to do, after the fact of the TS starting transition. Before the fact, it's virtually impossible to differentiate the two - at least up to the point the gender dysphoria of the TS person approaches sort of a terrible climax. I wish it were as simple as asserting "I'm just a CD." Really, if our world were different, it would be that simple most of the time. In a trans accepting world, people who started CDing in their youth could explore these feelings, choosing transition if they needed it, or realizing "yeah, ok, this is part of me, but it's not all of me." Kids now, in some programs for trans youth, do exactly that. They don't all choose transition because some of them really are just crossdressers! In that world, a guy could tell someone he wanted to be with, "yeah, look, I like to crossdress sometimes, it's part of me. But I went through a gender program as a kid, and I know I'm just a guy. Transition just isn't for me - it's not who I am."

We don't live in that world yet. We may not live in that world during my lifetime. We are far from that world, and when most of us grew up, a world like that was nothing short of science-fiction.

So in the world we live in, figuring out our identities for those of us who are transgender can be extraordinarily difficult, because everyone, from crossdresser, to transitioner, to gender queer is told that our physical anatomy determines our identity. That it in fact does so for 99%+ of the population makes arguing against this incredibly difficult. We are left with people who've often been encouraged to lie about how they feel for most of their lives. Untangling all of that is hard.

The lack of understanding of these points makes some of you, quite frankly, dangerous to trans people in my opinion.

And no, I have no desire to break your marriages, convince the average CD that they need to transition, nor any other such nonsense.

The only thing I do care about are the folks who do fall into that 41% who'll attempt suicide. People for whom GD has become life-threatening, for whom the losses we face during transition simply are irrelevant, because you have nothing when you are dead. People who really don't understand "why am I not just a crossdresser?" who desperately want to be "just a crossdresser", because being "just a crossdresser", is in general a hell of a lot easier than transition. People who are confused and terrified, as I was.

So I'm sorry if pointing some of this out scares spouses of CDs. I sincerely mean that. You didn't ask for this, most of you didn't sign up for any of this. It's a horribly unfair situation for you. I mean that. I know it is emotionally challenging (there's an understatement!)

However, the cold hard fact is that if you end up being unable to deal with the small uncertainty about the future of your spouse, and your marriage ends over it, you'll live. It'll suck, it's unfair, it'll be awful, but the overwhelming odds are, you'll survive it.

The people whom I'm concerned about may not survive unless they do something about their gender identity, and feelings of gender dysphoria. I very nearly didn't.

Lorileah

05-08-2015, 04:10 PM

Wow and I thought I was militant.

No one's life sucks more than anyone else's. Just differently. And I don't see the issue of Reine referencing the teen suicide.

I am often negative about things in the world that people who are TG face in the "real" world, but the truth is, at least here in a major metropolitan area, it isn't that bad. My friendships bridge the spectrum of CDs, DQs GQs and all the schmear of TS. And funny that in real life, other than personal differences (there are a few people I detest that would detest no matter what they wore), we get along great. But we watch each other's back.

We have belabored the point that it isn't a progression, an inevitability. All I camn say to any SO who reads this is, everyone is different. That we try and smooth the path for any who follow behind. That we just want to make lives easier, mostly for the TGs but also for the SOs. One point I really need to make is that when things go well...you usually don't scream from the parapets. When things go south, you tell anyone who will listen.

TSs here who do "press'" the GD scheme aren't actually doing it to increase our numbers. It is mostly a perspective and when we see something we relate to "our" world. I have been here a long time and I remember PaulaQ from the beginning. I may have selective memory but people telling her it was just "pink fog" doesn't register. I don't remember anyone telling anyone to suck it up or to give in. Mel can probably back me on this. She was and continues to be, along with several FtM TSs and some FtMs, a mentor for me. She never, ever told me I was TS but still helped me along the way on my own path. That's what I know about the TSs here and frankly a large number of CDs who have been here a long long time.

Kim made an excellent point: no matter where you are when you get something new and different, you go over the top with it. So sometimes TSs who had an epiphany, may tell everyone it is the way to go. Paula saw that and I thin k she is very good at giving the Yin to that Yang. My transition started out smooth but there have been speed bumps since then. Mel gave the best statement that fits most TSs I think...our life is boring, simple everyday tasks that most people wouldn't even care about. But when you are newer (TS or CD) here you want the thrill. Things that CDs find interesting, TSs usually do not and vice versa. Thus the separation here. Sometimes this comes to loggerheads. Frustration sets in. CDs tire of the "you must..." when they have no desire to...

How to explain this? :thinking: when you taste something for the first time and you love the flavor, you tend to tell everyone they "should" taste it. It isn't wrong but it is what YOU feel. So, I think, many TSs who awaken to their lives, want others to see, feel or taste this new world. Thus the "You will follow" attitude. Sometimes "we" know just from what someone says or how they act. I was told by my best TS friends that I would follow. They saw something in me. They didn't force or direct though. I have seen it in a few friends also, but consider I have about 20-30 friends who are in some manner TG, I know of two who are following me. Most never will.

cheryl reeves

05-08-2015, 05:00 PM

the problem is not all ts's do gender reasignment,some find a happy medium.
ive always knew i was a women playing a man,i was always differnt,having small breasts kept me from taking my shirt off in front of other men.
i read the stories of those who went before and were considered pioneers of gender reassignment,and the lives they lead after ,i didnt want to go through that so i learned to walk my own path. i was part of the 41% who tried suicide,tried drinking myself to death. then in my deepest rock bottom,i said hell with what other people think,im going to be me..when i dress im cheryl all the way,and cheryl is a lesbian,guys do no do anything for me..i like this forum for we come together even though we walk different paths

ReineD

05-08-2015, 05:33 PM

Cheryl, I'm glad that you found your own path. Your post is a testimony to the idea that people have different definitions of "TS", "TG", "CD", "transition", etc. It's not that those words are entirely inadequate, it's just they are too general. There are different levels within them that also need to be specified if we want to communicate to others who we are.

If you feel you are Cheryl when you're dressed, then I can tell you there are lots of people here who feel the way you do. Whether or not they or you want to do this full time is entirely an individual decision.

Two question: What age group are you in (under 30, mid-life, near or past retirement), and why didn't you feel you wanted to transition like the SRS pioneers?

One comment: If you are older (you mention the pioneers), then you lived in a time when it was much more difficult to express yourself than it is now. I can see why it was so difficult for you and I'm glad that you decided to go out and be Cheryl.

TrishaTX

05-08-2015, 07:06 PM

I am a straight acting, good job having 22 hours a day male who loves to crossdress. maybe I am the minority, but I like being the man I am and the girl I am sometimes. My wife is getting comfortable with it as well. It is hard enough figuring this out without the rules imposed by others...I am going to stay me

sometimes_miss

05-08-2015, 07:27 PM

You can't become TS, you are born TS.
Uh, not so much. No one really knows how it all works. The large number of guys who get the urge to dress up and suddenly start wanting to express feminine behavior and such later in life is large enough to tell us that this isn't just some genetically controlled anomoly; or maybe it is but must be triggered by something else and no one yet knows what that trigger is. Remember, our brains and personalities change throughout our lives, with each new experience, new pathways are built and new connections are made. We don't stop growing until, well even after we are dead some cells continue to change. So, sure, there are some who know that they are TS as soon as they are self aware. For someone else, it may take 60 or 70 years. For me, I thought I was TS during my teen years. It took me years to figure it all out and learn where the desire to be a girl was coming from. The complicated thing was, western mental health practicioners give us the idea that all we need to do is figure it all out, then we'll 'get better', implying some type of cure or resolution to all the feelings we have. Doesn't work that way. All the feelings and desires are still there. All that we can do, is learn how to deal with it better.

ReineD

05-08-2015, 08:59 PM

The large number of guys who get the urge to dress up and suddenly start wanting to express feminine behavior and such later in life is large enough to tell us that this isn't just some genetically controlled anomoly; or maybe it is but must be triggered by something else and no one yet knows what that trigger is.

I can tell you what it is, or at least an important factor. :)

The times have changed.

Look at the leaps and bounds made in recent years with gay rights, more and more TSs coming out some of whom are celebrated as models and actresses, parents who now respect that their children are TS and who are fully on board with this. We are loooong past the 1970s when homosexuality was considered an illness in the DSM and when it was illegal to crossdress. Things have changed gradually, but if we're to use a cut-off date, let's use 15 years ago, year 2000, which coincides with the explosion of the internet and the vast dissemination of information. This means that anyone younger than their mid-30s now (if they were age 20 in the year 2000), will not have felt the dire need to repress themselves like their predecessors. Yes, there are some pockets of society that are still religiously conservative that result in tragic deaths like Leelah Alcorn, but Leelah found out when she was 14 who she was with the help of the internet. She would not have come out at age 50. Hopefully, other conservative parents will hear her story and not react the same way as her parents did, should one of their own kids come out. The religiously conservative folks are slower to change than others.

But for the young people who are able to get through their time at home with non-accepting parents, there are so many more possibilities for them now than there ever were ... lots of advocacy groups, LGBT organizations, increasingly schools are coming on board, kids at college are much more tolerant.

The era of older individuals who came out all of a sudden due to having repressed either the crossdressing or the need to transition is coming to an end. The 'late-onset' phenomena will be short lived in my opinion. It was created because of the time lag between the 1960s cultural revolution when sexual and gender variant people began to question the 1950s and prior values (when no one even dared think about coming out of the closet), and the time it took for the rest of society to catch up with their awareness of sexual and gender variance.

The interesting thing about all of this, is a comment made to me by the president of my SO's gender support group. She said she was amazed at the number of younger people who are not interested in dressing up traditionally like older CDs/TGs. They're much more comfortable presenting as feminine males, or genderqueer, or a more androgynous version of themselves. Not everyone mind you, there are TSs among them who are born in the wrong bodies, but the younger gender-flexible folks are much more flexible about their presentation than traditional CDers it seems.

Kaitlyn Michele

05-08-2015, 09:00 PM

oh please... an almost universal majority of doctors agree that you can't turn people gay and you can't turn guys into girls...
no serious person says just figure it out and you'll get better...maybe you have a bad therapist or maybe you just made that up...

oh and guess what...i transitioned...those feelings??? they went away... if they didn't go away for you then you are not living your best life...that's your responsibility...not anybody else's..

+++++

as to the op..

You can't dismiss reality by pointing out a stupid exaggerated joke as a straw man for "misinformation"...

Most cd's are men...its not complicated

who knows how many exactly but its a small number of people that get into cd'ing realize over time or in a eureka moment why they dress...and that reason is transsexuality...
its just a fact of life...dumb jokes aside its a real thing..

the concern on a wife's part is easy to understand.

and be honest, lots of cd's push it farther and farther and that is just going to raise the eyebrows of their SO's... and frankly its not my fault because i'm a ts that a person is pushing their dressing so much that their wife is getting concerned.. in those cases don't you just work it out pretty easily, unless there IS an issue?

The answer is not to muzzle people sharing their experience, its to do a better job communicating with the people around you.

ReineD

05-08-2015, 09:18 PM

and be honest, lots of cd's push it farther and farther and that is just going to raise the eyebrows of their SO's...

Everyone is pushing it farther and farther in our society. TSs want to transition at younger ages, CDers want to go to work dressed on Fridays, homosexuals and lesbians want to get married in big public places with wedding announcements, plus introduce their partners to everyone at work, women want to adopt children without being married, other women want all barriers removed in the work force up to the boardrooms, even some kids are divorcing their parents, and all this is done publicly on facebook and twitter! :)

This was not happening 30 years ago.

cheryl reeves

05-08-2015, 11:54 PM

im going to be 50 in a few months. my dad knew something was a little different about me,so he did the best he could to live in a mans world. when im terry i feel like a ftm crossdresser,weird isnt it. i learned alot on my journey and wouldnt trade any of it.

PaulaQ

05-09-2015, 01:08 AM

Everyone is pushing it farther and farther in our society. TSs want to transition at younger ages ... This was not happening 30 years ago.

You are dead wrong.

In 1948, in San Francisco, Benjamin was asked by Alfred Kinsey, a fellow sexologist, to see a child who "wanted to become a girl" despite being born male; the mother wished for help that would assist rather than thwart the child. Kinsey had encountered the child as a result of his interviews for Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, which was published that year. Kinsey and Benjamin had seen nothing of the like previously. This child rapidly led Benjamin to understand that there was a different condition to that of transvestism, under which adults who had such needs had been classified to that time.[3]

Despite the psychiatrists with whom Benjamin involved in the case not agreeing on a path of treatment, Benjamin eventually decided to treat the child with estrogen (Premarin, introduced in 1941), which had good results because the estrogen changed the body to what the transgender child thought it should be and helped arrange for the mother and child to go to Germany, where surgery to assist the child could be performed but, from there, they ceased to maintain contact, to Benjamin's regret. However, Benjamin continued to refine his understanding and went on to treat several hundred patients with similar needs in a similar manner, often without accepting any payment.

1948, when one of Benjamin's early patients, a child, transitioned is 68 years ago - 15 years before I was born.

30 years ago, though, Janice Raymond had penned her poisonous little tome "The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male", and done a hatchet job on Trans healthcare in a paper she wrote for the Reagan Administration.

30 years ago, Paul McHugh had shut down the Johns-Hopkins gender clinic several years earlier. Here's some contemporary views the man has:
Transgender Surgery Isn't The Solution (http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120)
His opinions on the matter don't appear to have changed much in the 36 years between the time he wrote the paper above and the time he shut down the gender clinic. They also don't appear to be overmuch concerned with science.

30 years ago, Rock Hudson died, the AIDS epidemic was in full swing, and people were really starting to freak out about it. Between that, and their subsequent push for marriage equality, the big gay organizations threw trans people under the bus, and all but stopped advocating for us.

30 years ago, at least one of the puberty blockers used for trans kids now had been approved for prostate cancer treatment by the FDA.

So you know what? It's at least conceivable that 30 years ago trans kids could've been treated, and transitioned if needed - quite a bit of the technology for that had existed for some time.

Mostly what held all of this back was prejudice - especially that of a few well placed and especially hateful individuals.

If you want to consider medical treatment for a genuinely horrifying condition that affects children to be somehow socially reactionary, then go right ahead. But consider that if we are pushing a boundary, we are pushing on one that was incredibly cruel and based on hatred. Oh, and the people who are pushing this boundary? Parents of transgender children - just as happened for the child in 1948.

other women want all barriers removed in the work force up to the boardrooms

This was also going on 30 years ago, although 3 years prior to that, the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment) died. (We can thank Phyllis Schlafly for that.)

But I do want to thank you for equating trans rights with marriage equality. (I support marriage equality, despite what I'm about to say next.) In fact, they aren't really on equal footing at all - LGB groups spend about 60x as much on the promotion of marriage equality as has been spent on all trans rights activities combined. But thanks for assuming we rate up there with gay folks being able to put a ring on it. If only that were the case - gosh I wish it were.

For those of you who think I'm too militant, please understand that the really militant people I know consider marriage to be a tool of slavery and colonialism. (I don't agree with this point of view at all.)

AnnieMac

05-09-2015, 02:00 AM

It has recently occurred to me that transitioning or not, all crossdressers are indeed transgender. To say I'm just a guy that likes wearing women's clothes is self-delusional. I think crossdressing is much more than that. Nothing wrong with it but we probably want to be females more than we would like to admit to ourselves, and that's why presenting as women makes us feel good.

ReineD

05-09-2015, 02:23 AM

How to explain this? :thinking: when you taste something for the first time and you love the flavor, you tend to tell everyone they "should" taste it. It isn't wrong but it is what YOU feel. So, I think, many TSs who awaken to their lives, want others to see, feel or taste this new world. Thus the "You will follow" attitude.

This is true. People in general tend to see other people's experiences from their own point of view.

But I think that in a forum like this (where emotions can run high especially when an OP is frustrated), it's important to try to not put the cart before the horse when speaking to a particular person about their situation, unless of course they're actually considering transition. We all know how powerful can be the urge to dress and we all know that it happens to an awful lot of people who are not TS. So if the issue is about dressing and a wife's non-participation, what right does someone have, who has no background or expertise in GD-diagnosis, to insinuate such a thing to a person they've never met and know nothing of, a person who is not bringing their issues in the TS section because they're not even close to thinking about it.

My own SO, long ago, was figuring out where she was going with all of this. S/he was the first to tell me (and a few wise people have posted the same thing here over the years), that it is hugely important to allow people to go at their own pace.

When did we lose that wisdom in this forum?

PaulaQ

05-09-2015, 02:42 AM

@AnnieMac - yes, crossdressers fall under the transgender umbrella, because at minimum they express in a manner that isn't consistent with social expectations for their gender assigned at birth. In many respects this is not so different than masculine women - particularly butch lesbians.

In terms of our gender, there are a couple of vectors to consider here:
Identity - from masculine to feminine
Expression - from masculine to feminine

(Here's a graphic that shows this in more detail: the genderbread person (http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2015/03/the-genderbread-person-v3/))

Some CDs report having a partial feminine identity. That certainly seems possible to me. On the other hand, there are CDs who report having basically NO feminine identity, and feel totally male - and yet overwhelmingly compelled to crossdress. So for some it's mostly about identity, for some it's mostly about expression, and for some it's a mixture of both. I think that transition for a MtF who doesn't have at least a moderately developed feminine identity is just bound to be a horrible mistake, no matter how femininely they express. (By the same token, not all butch lesbians transition FtM - they may dress like a man, but they still identify as women. For that matter, not all FtM's express as butch lesbians do in the beginning. I know some guys who started out really femme.)

I hope all of the above seems reasonable. Someone assigned male at birth who has a strong female identity probably needs to transition, regardless of their outward expression. Someone assigned male at birth who has a fairly strong male identity, even if they express in highly feminine manners sometimes, almost certainly does not need to transition. (In fact, doing that is very probably a really, really bad idea.)

However, it's tough to sort out the folks who are in the middle between those two extremes, and it's tough to predict the future. For some of us, GD seems to get worse over time. For others, the issue is muddied because these things aren't usually well understood by the person who's experiencing them, and because we are often encouraged, at least in the past, to not be totally honest about all of it. There is also often a fair amount of social pressure to avoid transition, even for people who might otherwise do so were the stakes lower. I assert that all of these things introduce some amount of uncertainty about who will and who won't transition ever.

If this seems implausible to you, or upsets you, then feel free to ignore it. I base this opinion on my observations over the past couple of years. But hey, I have no proof of anything, so feel free to ignore my opinion.

I'd also point out that my descriptions above, and most of the discussion on this forum, seem to center on people who conform to the gender binary either in identity, or expression.

So if the issue is about dressing and a wife's non-participation, what right does someone have, who has no background or expertise in GD-diagnosis, to insinuate such a thing to a person they've never met and know nothing of, a person who is not bringing their issues in the TS section because they're not even close to thinking about it.

I really don't see any examples of this happening here. I don't read every thread, so maybe someone does this. I don't think it's typical though. If you know of someone who does seem to do this frequently, I'd suggest PM'ing them and asking them about the matter.

AnnieMac

05-09-2015, 08:26 AM

Naaw, PaulaQ, I agree with most of what you said, and you of course are on your own unique journey, which must be really something, from fulfilling happiness, to moments of despair I would imagine. But I respect you for it. As I would want you to respect me for wanting to "get my girl on" from time to time.

However, I disagree with your choice of comparison and stereotyping. You make the mistake of stereotyping by using "Butch Lesbians" as a comparison point. Not all masculine women, or women that are more guy-like in nature are lesbians. As you know after frequenting this forum, and of course your own discovery process, that gender and sexual orientation are two completely different things. We of this now wider transgender umbrella get upset when we hear, "You're a cross dresser? So are you gay or what? Same-same really.

However, you seem like you would be a very interesting person to talk to about your own experiences, and perhaps I'll get the opportunity some day.

All is good though- I don't overthink forum comments much, as that's what forums are for, free expression, although the forum rules here are often bit restrictive.
-Love, Annie

Dianne S

05-09-2015, 08:58 AM

I think there's a delicate balance between misinformation and honesty.

So yeah, the absolute truth is that the vast majority of crossdressers never transition and the vast majority don't ever want to transition.

Unfortunately, it's also true that a significant number of transsexuals (perhaps even the majority of us who transition later in life) start out believing they're "just" crossdressers and don't imagine they'd ever want to transition. Until surprisingly, they find they have to.

It's this relatively small number of people who discover or acknowledge themselves rather late in life that scares the heck out of partners, and about all crossdressers can do to reassure their partners is tell them the odds are very much against their transitioning. But to state something absolutely, especially if you're young and at the beginning of a relationship, in my opinion is not completely honest.

Kaitlyn Michele

05-09-2015, 09:19 AM

First off to the OP and others.
I think you are well intentioned and sincere.. Me too.

Here's my issue, you can't deny reality. The general and the specific are very different. You can't go from specific to general, you just can't.

The OP statement is a strawman and calls a joke misinformation.
Nobody is serious when they joke about the "difference between a cd and ts is xx years"... we all know this is not true and if you think this is true, you should do some homework and get a clue.
and if statements like that are made, they are roundly defeated in my experience.

Message boards allow all kinds to post. You can't take what 2 or 5 or 10 people said and compare it to what everybody else says.... did anybody come on this thread and defend the joke??

It is not a real issue.
The real issue is you just want people to shut up about their lives, and that's never going to happen. You can't give me or Paula or any of us an approved script.

The "general" cd has a chance of realizing they are ts, or perhaps better said, admitting it to herself. My Husband Betty, anyone?

I experienced this, and so did many ts women...
however, this is does not imply many cd men "turn into" or grow into transsexuals, and it especially doesnt imply that cd's transition and live as women..
and we all know that very few cd's have this scary realization we are talking about anyway... just look at the volume of messages on ts vs cd forum..

To me a more important factor is that many cd's go further and further with their femme side, its not surprise to me that wives and SO's raise an eyebrow at this and wonder about whether their husband is ever going to transition.. this is very common..

Reine your statement about insinuation is also a strawman .... sharing experience is not a diagnosis and its not an insinuation. it is what it is..
and generally speaking the opposite of this thread is what happens much more... ts women universally dissuade people from flirting with labeling themselves ts and tell people they will mess up their lives if they go down this path, and we get hammered for that too (in fact by Paula!!! :hugs:)

The answer is not to muzzle transsexuals sharing experience, or even to ban stupid jokes...its communication and compromise in your real life..

its your responsibility in your marriage to keep it real and thriving and deal with concerns of loved ones...

...and if a message board joke about cd's is causing a problem for you i think that's on you even if the joke is out of line.

flatlander_48

05-09-2015, 10:01 AM

[
In reading the comments on this thread, I'm reminded of what some gays and lesbians think about those who identify as bi-sexual. They think those who do so are simply lying and in a state of denial - surely they must be gay and just don't want to admit it.
Here, I sense that some have the same attitude about crossdressing... the idea that all crossdressers secretly want to transition but won't admit it.

That's the thing. Sweeping generalizations are rarely, if ever, true. Unfortunately that doesn't keep people from spreading them; often for purposes of their own agenda.

The comparison to the erasure of bisexuality in the gay community is a good one, and I try to be sensitive to this. Look, there is frequently a phase where gay people identify as bisexual for a time, until they come to terms with their sexual orientation. This is a real thing. Unfortunately, it leads some in the gay community to conclude that bisexuals simply don't exist. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Thank you! Validations are always graciously accepted. And for the record, that never rang true to me as my path was the reverse. I identified as gay for close to 10 years before circumstances forced me to rethink my position.

Anyway, one of the other things that hurts us is the lack of a clear, consistent message. After being on this forum for a short period of time, it should become obvious that there are a bunch of opinions as to what the definitions of the terms crossdresser, transgender and transsexual are. That's just ridiculous and I believe it is a significant part of the confusion within the general population. This is something that we absolutely must clean up.

Taylor186

05-09-2015, 10:19 AM

Paula, first you say:

If you think that I have any interest in the folks here who seem to be captivated by the fantasy or the sensations of crossdressing ... then you mistake me greatly.

then you say:

If a CD is mostly having fun with all this, I don't tend to want to talk with them.

OK, it is clear that you are not interested in the everyday CD and you don't want to talk to us either. And yet while holding us in contempt you continue to lecture us. Puzzling.

Then you say:

I think that cisgender people should be very careful when talking about gender dysphoria. This is something you literally are not capable of understanding ...

It seems to me that this rhetorical knife cuts both ways.

Kaitlyn Michele

05-09-2015, 10:39 AM

I don't view my "ts" problems as worse or better than anyone's else..
(as an aside i had a friend that listened to my long sob story at a bar about being ts and he said "hey Kaitlyn, we all got problems, want to hear mine??what are you drinking?")

to me that sums it up pretty starkly... my problems are mine...i can be sensitive to others, and respectful of people with a different point of view and a different set of problems without judging anybody...and i can share my experience and opinion anyway i want as long as I'm honest and sincere and i'd prefer people deal with specifics than generalities..

its not my problem that some wives might read this forum and get the wrong impression...i don't spread misinformation and i simply don't believe transsexuals spread this info...
every transsexual i know bristles at unserious people flirting with transition..the difference between a ts and a cd is the same as the difference between a man and a woman...

flatlander_48

05-09-2015, 10:45 AM

30 years ago, Rock Hudson died, the AIDS epidemic was in full swing, and people were really starting to freak out about it. Between that, and their subsequent push for marriage equality, the big gay organizations threw trans people under the bus, and all but stopped advocating for us.

Looking at it in a broader sense, I don't have a lot of heartburn about that. We have to remeber that we are a fraction of a fraction. Anyway, without that strategy, I don't think we would be anywhere close to the current siuation regarding marriage equality. However, no doubt that the shift in strategy did play into the agendas of some.

It has recently occurred to me that transitioning or not, all crossdressers are indeed transgender. To say I'm just a guy that likes wearing women's clothes is self-delusional. I think crossdressing is much more than that. Nothing wrong with it but we probably want to be females more than we would like to admit to ourselves, and that's why presenting as women makes us feel good.
Unfortunately that is a very difficult thing for many to understand. Th very nature of crossdressing is to cross the boundary of accepted gender presentation, yet many who dress will swear that they are not transgender. Once again, it sends a very confusing message to the general populace.

DeeAnn

Sarah-RT

05-09-2015, 11:09 AM

Annie Id have to agree with you, Id say that I think I could be happy as female, but my problem is that I also like being male. Ive related it to sexuality before in the basic sense of you like men, or you like women, or you can like both, but you know what you do and dont like. where as with gender its an awful lot more conflicting because you can only be 1 at a time so I feel that the crossdressing is the compromise, it would be far easier if social barriers removed you could change your gender and be happy with your decision, or you could block out the thoughts of being the opposite one rather than being in a sort of limbo state.

Honest question but how many of us would dress full time if the world was blind? or how much time would you spend in male mode even?

Sarah x

ReluctantDebutant

05-09-2015, 11:16 AM

Well I don't know what the current definition of transgendered is lately. Its been over an hour since I checked with the council that must decide that :D

But the definition of cisgendered seems consistant as a person who identifies with his/her birth gender.

There are quite a lot of cross-dressers who are quite happy being male and Identify as male including myself. This by definition would make many cross-dressers cisgendered. While the definition of transgendered always seems to be in flux :eek: it is still always defined as the antonym of cisgendered. So it can't be said that all cross-dressers are transgendered. One way of lessening confusion would be by sticking to definitions of things.

ReineD

05-09-2015, 12:09 PM

It's this relatively small number of people who discover or acknowledge themselves rather late in life that scares the heck out of partners, and about all crossdressers can do to reassure their partners is tell them the odds are very much against their transitioning.

It's not only the partners who might get the wrong impression when reading the same message over again from a vocal few here, but even more potentially dangerous is the vulnerable CDer whose partner isn't even here, who may want the "legitimacy" of a medical condition, in an attempt to convince a wife (or perhaps even the self) that it is necessary to crossdress ... although having the urge to crossdress alone should be reason enough. The idea that the crossdressing is a choice is ridiculous. The need to express femininity occasionally is just as real and just as valid as the need to express it full time and transition in my opinion.

But, when people begin to convince themselves they are what they are not, this can lead to disastrous effects in the future, from breaking apart families only to end up living not much differently than before, to undergoing body modifications that one will regret later and "detransition". My SO and I know people who have done this.

This is why it is imperative, IMO, to allow vulnerable people who are going through extreme frustration over wives who are not being cooperative to go at their own pace and not suggest they "might" be TS especially when it has not occurred to them yet on their own and they have lived 40 years as an adult not even having had an inkling of this, and they are not in the TS section discussing it, and when their issues are different than the issues that bring TSs to realize they are TS. The idea of a CD to TS continuum is false and propagating this idea is harmful to vulnerable people.

Not "suggesting", subtly or not so subtly, that an individual might be TS does not invalidate them and this individual is still completely free to come to this conclusion at their own pace over time, as they begin to leave their closets and go out presenting as a woman.

PaulaQ

05-09-2015, 12:13 PM

If a CD is mostly having fun with all this, I don't tend to want to talk with them.

OK, it is clear that you are not interested in the everyday CD and you don't want to talk to us either. And yet while holding us in contempt you continue to lecture us. Puzzlling.

I apologize, that my remark came across that way. I do care very deeply about the problems, trials, and tribulations of crossdressers. I identified as such and prayed that this was all I was - when I allowed myself to think on these things at all.

So let me say that I acknowledge that your journey is real, your experiences are valid, and I know from talking to many of you that many of you have real pain in your lives. Many of you live in constant fear of discovery - from your families, your jobs, your friends. I know what this is like. Many of you struggle with issues of acceptance with your spouses. I also can, unfortunately relate to those.

The crossdressers I've spoken with online or in person are real people, with real problems who deserve better than what they often get. They didn't ask for this "trans" thing either, but they are stuck dealing with it's peculiar manifestation in their lives.

They face, if outed, much of the same stigma as those of us who transition. Because much of the world, historically, hasn't understood the differences between us. (And because, as I pointed out, trying to sort ourselves out from one another is confusing because of the situation created by the non-transgender people of the world. They blame us for their confusion too - when in reality most of it is caused by their unwillingness to see the truth of us all.)

No, please, please, please don't think I don't care. I've taken CDs who are visiting my city around to show them some fun and safe places. I've pointed area CDs to local resources and groups that are solely for CDs. I (mostly) try to tone it down when I talk to them, because I'm told I'm intimidating to people. I give them information about local trans groups, in case they, or someone they know, needs it.

So please don't think I believe I'm better than you, that I don't care about you. Indeed, in many ways, I'm often envious of many of you. Most of the people reading this are never going to consider ending their lives over their gender.

But some of you will, because some of you are confused, as I was. Those are the folks who I hope will contact me, and whom I try to connect to local support resources.

Please don't think I don't care about your marriages. I do. There just isn't anything I can do about them. If I need to stop mentioning my own experiences or those of others who originally identified as CDs, but ultimately transitioned, in order to help preserve marriages here, then I have to respectfully decline to do so.

The person I'm interested in reaching needs to transition, and is at or near the end of their rope. My sincere belief is that they need to hear some of what I say. I hope I say it well enough to help them choose life. My belief is my silence would make me, in some small way, complicit in their death. This I can not countenance.

If my words frighten some already distraught GG who struggles with her CD spouse, then I deeply regret that, but there is nothing I can do about that either.

It isn't that I don't care about your relationships, but I sincerely believe that my silence, which seems to be what you are requesting, could result in some poor individual destroying themselves - something far worse than a divorce. So I do see this as a direct trade-off. I can't help you all reassure your spouses without squelching what I say about my past - my story is scary. But I believe that at least some people here need to hear it, and I pray that something I say may make them reach out to others for help. This has to be my priority, and I am sorry if any of you disagree with that.

My only real suggestion to you is that if you sincerely believe that I am up to no good, an irritant and a distraction here, then contact the moderators and tell them so, suggesting they ban me. I hope that most won't reach such a conclusion, but if that happens, so be it.

Anyway, please understand that I do care about you all.

Kaitlyn Michele

05-09-2015, 01:03 PM

Reine I agree the idea of cd to ts continuum is false... however you simply must accept that there are many ts that identified as cd for a long time... and many of them sure wish they had better advice and guidance earlier in their lives... this is a FACT...

I think what you are highlighting is not constructive..its impossible to protect everyone all the time... ..some personal responsibility must be assumed.

Should TS people not post here? Should their words be throttled? Should they never say anything that could reach struggling confused transsexuals for fear of "harming" struggling confused cross dressers?
that's not going to happen and it shouldn't happen.

If that's not what you are implying , what are you implying??

Is this all about something Paula posted or somebody specifically posted?? i'd love to see it..

Each of these messages that you fear should be dealt with head on when the message happens. if you see one, send me a pm...we will double team them...

there is no doubt that people throw out uninformed thoughts and false information and its right to stand against that.
if you want to ensure no misinformation is ever spread its time to shut down the forum...

how can you let some cd's be happy and excited about outings when it might hurt cd's that can't go out or even dress?
how can you let some cd's suggest to another to tell the wife when it might destroy the marriage?
how can you let some cd's suggest to another to "you go girl" and risk that person being mocked or deeply embarrassed when they go out??
how can you let pretty passable cd's post adventures and pics when it might hurt the feelings of cd's that can't ever pass?
how can you let cd's brag about their wives acceptance when many wives don't accept and deal with all the hurt feelings?
how can you let cd's talk about full dressing when some cd's have promised their wives they only like wearing panties? god forbid the wife worry about him wanting to dress more
i got a lot more...

it feels like a witch hunt to me..

Sarah-RT

05-09-2015, 01:06 PM

Paula I often enjoy reading your comments on the many threads, as you have said you began as a crossdresser and so relate to many of our experiences, you still do even though you have transitioned. I also enjoy reading your comments as they come from experience and they are well thought out before you hit the reply button.

Id also thank you for having our interests at heart too, I so often read about the gay community criticizing the T community yet we are all supposed to be in the same boat, the same goes here, we are all T, but especially we are all people and the experiences passed down are the best to learn from.

Sarah x

Dianne S

05-09-2015, 01:46 PM

The idea of a CD to TS continuum is false and propagating this idea is harmful to vulnerable people.

Yes, I agree. I have never, ever said to someone "I think you're TS" and I never would. That's something each person has to decide for him or herself.

Now, I happen to know some CDers that I privately believe are actually TS. But I keep those beliefs to myself.

All I'm trying to get at with my reply to the OP is this: Don't promise things about an unknowable future. Be honest about your intentions to make a relationship work and be honest about the odds. But don't give absolutes or it may come back to haunt you.

emma5410

05-09-2015, 02:03 PM

I think a SO would have to read through a lot of threads before they came across it. I would have thought the fact that you are dressed as a woman would be her main cause of distress. It is perfectly reasonable for her to assume that you want to be a woman when you show a strong desire to dress and act as one. Especially if you are pushing through any boundaries that have been agreed.
Blaming a saying in this situation is ludicrous. As is the idea that you can censor opinions however wrong you think they are.

Why does not someone write an explanation of what CD and TS are and make it a sticky. They could make it very clear that the vast majority of CDers are men that do not want to be women. Your wives and partners can read this and won't worry.

It seems that TS are now being accused of encouraging CDers to transition. I thought we were normally accused of being too tough on people who suddenly announce they are trans. Please make up your mind which it is.

ReineD

05-09-2015, 02:20 PM

Reine I agree the idea of cd to ts continuum is false... however you simply must accept that there are many ts that identified as cd for a long time...

I do agree this is true, especially for some of the TSs in our generation (the TSs who grew up without the resources there are today). I'm not disputing this at all. I'm saying something different. I'm saying that people should be allowed to go at their own pace with self-realization. Just because one TS identified as a CDer for years, doesn't mean that a CDer who is frustrated over not being able to dress as much as s/he wants to and is not questioning his/her gender identity, is TS.

Also, I've often read in the TS section that at some level TSs always knew they were TS. They had an inkling even though they didn't know the language to describe it. Is this not true?

and many of them sure wish they had better advice and guidance earlier in their lives... this is a FACT...

When it comes to something as important as a self-gender-identification that can potentially change the entire course of someone's life (and the lives of their loved ones), don't you think the guidance needs to come from a professional who has actually met the person in question and who is trained?

I think what you are highlighting is not constructive..its impossible to protect everyone all the time... ..some personal responsibility must be assumed.

In an ideal world this is true. But what of people who have a difficult time with self-responsibility to begin with. There are people here who blame their wives continuously. Are we to assume that their wives are always 100% responsible for a CDer's unhappiness?

The largest factor in my personal growth over the years has been in surrounding myself, not with people who said, "Oh you're so right dear", but with people who helped me to look at my situation objectively even if what they said to me was not what I wanted to hear initially.

Should TS people not post here? Should their words be throttled? Should they never say anything that could reach struggling confused transsexuals for fear of "harming" struggling confused cross dressers?

OK, then does this mean that CDers (or their wives) shouldn't go into the TS section and tell TSs directly (in a statement that applies directly to their personal situation and not in a general comments like the ones you are making in this post) that they don't have GD, that they're just experiencing Pink Fog, and they should pull themselves up from their bootstraps and get balance in their lives? You and I both know that CDers who have done this sort of thing were told unceremoniously that they needed to stick to their side of the forum. lol.

We don't want to exclude anyone from posting anywhere here, so you tell me what the solution should be.

how can you let some cd's be happy and excited about outings when it might hurt cd's that can't go out or even dress?
how can you let some cd's suggest to another to tell the wife when it might destroy the marriage?
how can you let some cd's suggest to another to "you go girl" and risk that person being mocked or deeply embarrassed when they go out??
how can you let pretty passable cd's post adventures and pics when it might hurt the feelings of cd's that can't ever pass?
how can you let cd's brag about their wives acceptance when many wives don't accept and deal with all the hurt feelings?
how can you let cd's talk about full dressing when some cd's have promised their wives they only like wearing panties? god forbid the wife worry about him wanting to dress more
i got a lot more...

it feels like a witch hunt to me..

It's not a witch hunt. It's simply asking everyone here to respect that there are differences between crossdressers and TSs, they are not on a continuum, and to allow those who have not come to the conclusion they are TS to come to the conclusion (if it is in the cards for them) on their own.

As to the examples you cite, CDers who can't go out, who don't pass, who don't have accepting wives, might well become jealous of the people who do. But this is not the same as potentially transitioning. Gosh, Kaitlyn, how many times in the TS section have TSs said to others, "Don't transition unless you have to". You have said this! We both know that transition is not a cake walk, it brings with it the potential of losing many things (not just a marriage), and to hold the affirmation that a person is a real woman as a carrot for someone who potentially believes that a TS ID might legitimize their issues in their wife's eyes (or in their own eyes) is not right. That is, IF they are not TS ... obviously this does not apply if they are TS, but if they are, then I should think their issues would be stronger than being frustrated ever not being able to dress occasionally. It would involve a deep and persistent unhappiness over being a man. And if they are deep down unhappy about being a man, I think this is something they need to discover on their own and/or with a professional well-versed in this area.

Taylor186

05-09-2015, 02:32 PM

... as you [Paula] have said you began as a crossdresser and so relate to many of our experiences, you still do even though you have transitioned.

No I think this is incorrect. Paula may have started her journey thinking that wearing women's clothing was enough, but she was never just a crossdresser. The internal motivations and drives that led her to ultimately transition are quite different than the motivations and drives of someone who is, and will only ever be, a crossdresser.

As badtranny succinctly said above, "I really don't think the cross-dressing had anything to do with it."

Said differently: For a ts, it's not (primarily) about clothing. For a cd, clothing is everything.

Kaitlyn Michele

05-09-2015, 03:36 PM

CD's come into the ts side all the time Reine...and they counsel compromise, and they say they identify as partially ts, or about partial transition what ever that is, they project their fantasy on us...and they say things like we should "just be happy"...the worst one is to come into our forum and they casually tell us they won't transition because they love their family too much, otherwise they would transition... (and who knows maybe some of them are ts and i mistake their casual comments as such because the bad GD hasn't hit them yet..i can be guilty of overgeneralizing too i guess)...this does not happen often, but neither does what we are talking about on this thread (if at all)

but when it does happen, imagine how that feels to an actual transsexual.. i didnt love my family enough??? is that it??? i should just be happy???

these words come from people that may be well meaning but have zero clue about what being transsexual means..
...those comments get clobbered and rightly so.... and then we have to hear about the tranny hierarchy and all we care about it labels...LOL

I never considered the idea that i was TS until i was almost 40 years old.. I wished i was a girl and often wondered why i felt that way...i actually thought of transsexuals as freaks and entertainers but i longed to be one..i cross dressed constantly and from my teens to my 40's it was just more and more....i was told more than once by therapists to just enjoy my cross dressing
in other words, i was pretty fubar in the head... i never met a transsexual until my early 40's and thats when i instantly knew....its my story...its true...my friend dusty had a very similar "arc"..it hit her when she started getting interested in men..

and yes...DO NOT under any circumstance transition unless you have to....of course knowing what "have to" means is the rub...but its an easy way to say a very complicated thing that we both touch on regarding how brutal it can be to transition... in these forums i have experienced many fantasy ts' and have had some rough conversations with them, and frankly i hope i helped them drop the fantasy...i can take it.

I respect all your answers, i just can't tell from them what you actually specifically want anybody to actually do..(that isn't already being done)...
i am dying to see the specific comments that got all the discussions going in this thread...especially as it relates to ts people coming in and trying to coach people into thinking about becoming ts...

The last thing i would ever want to do is influence a person into somehow thinking they are a transsexual ...what a cruel thing to do
but i don't see how its a negative to do things like urge therapy and consider all options when you see people talking about things you've thought about for 40 years...

it seems to me like a crazy nutty stretch to hear a persons frustration with their wife over dressing and say "oh you might be transsexual"....i would love to see where this happened.
on the other hand it can be life saver to say to someone "hey you are not alone and i felt that way too" and to counsel them to seek therapy...

we can't protect people from themselves. that is a fundamental principle of life in my opinion....

I already shared my solution. there is nothing to change...the forum works...we talk, we bicker, we share....

its simply a fact that we also have to accept that in an open forum there is lots of BS, bad advice, conjecture, LIES, etcetc...

i will make a deal with you...if either of us notices the behavior you are worried about this we will double team them and set them straight!!
We clobber them together...it has to happen in the moment..otherwise its just broad general complaints about what "ts's" do or what "cd's" say and they are always going to devolve into nothing.

PaulaQ

05-09-2015, 03:56 PM

As badtranny succinctly said above, "I really don't think the cross-dressing had anything to do with it."

Said differently: For a ts, it's not (primarily) about the clothing. For a cd, the clothing is everything.

I don't think the second quote has much to do with much of anything, at least in terms of telling who's who and what's what. For me, the clothing was everything - and in a lot of ways it still is. Sure, there's more to it than clothing - I am a woman.

But wearing men's clothes towards the end was horrible - I simply could no longer do it. I've observed this same pattern in plenty of other trans women. There are plenty of women, both cis and trans, who spend a lot of time on feminine presentation. Clothing is very important to these women. There are plenty of women, both cis and trans, who could not care less, and go for comfort.

I'll say it like this - and I mean this in all seriousness. If you threatened my life, telling me "put this suit and tie on, or else," I wouldn't do it. I'd rather you take my life. This is a very strong assertion - I suspect most people don't feel this way. I do. However, I know others of us who are trans who also feel as I do. I would fight for my identity - and my presentation is a big part of that. That other people don't feel that way doesn't mean much except that they don't feel that way. I suspect most of us who do transition would in fact fight really hard for our identities, because in many respects, that is precisely what transition is - it is a fight against the world to assert your true identity. In my opinion, stuff about expression is all wind and sails - identity and expression are independent, but you can certainly be very strongly oriented towards the feminine side of both.

The real difference is that I'm a woman - most of you reading this are not. The only issue in contention is that it is sometimes confusing to sort all that out for any given person.

Just to lay all the cards out on the table here, I have to say that I think the reason behind this thread has absolutely nothing to do with much of anything trans women like me are saying. (If you feel otherwise, PM me with some examples of something I've said, and we'll talk about it.)

There are a number of long time posters here who identified as CDs, but who are now entering into, or considering, transition. I think this has to raise some amount of concern amongst some posters here, and in particular, spouses. We can pretend this isn't happening - and indeed, in some of the older CD groups, that is precisely what they did, by ostracizing members who transitioned. But it really doesn't change anything.

Look, I apologize that I got irritated during some of my responses to this thread - I know that came across and it shouldn't have. But there is a certain sense of unreality watching people who've been here for a while transition, and listening to a chorus of "but we won't!!!!" from everyone else. Thing is, that's what everyone says for the most part. Until some of them do.

So look, I know a lot of you have to be worried. I can well understand why. But doing the following won't change a thing:
1. Minimizing or denying that some on here are going to wind up in transition - it's happened in the past, it's happening now, it'll happen in the future

2. Pretending there's some sort of magical way to predict whether or not someone will transition - based on observations after the fact of their starting transition. "Aha! They were never a real CD!!!! Well, we don't really know if they were or if they weren't. There's not much research on this to say one way or another. So trying to assert that your ability to observe the obvious "hey, they are in transition" in any way predicts the future of anyone else is pretty silly, in my opinion.

3. Spreading only doom and gloom about transition. Yeah, it's hard - I hope I've been honest about that. I think all of us who transition on this forum are pretty honest about it. But it saved my life, and I believe it's fair to say that the worst case scenario did not happen for me, nor many others on this forum, nor many others I know in real life. People who need this, need to do it. They need to join the community, and find support.

I know many transgender people in transition who have really hard lives. I also know this - they have lives, and so many of them have told me that they would not be alive had they not transitioned. (As with all of us, please don't assume this is the only valid narrative, nor the only reason to transition. Indeed, I'm a hell of a lot more comfortable if people are able to figure this stuff out, and deal with it long before they reach such a terrible crisis.)

flatlander_48

05-09-2015, 04:44 PM

Well I don't know what the current definition of transgendered is lately. Its been over an hour since I checked with the council that must decide that

People want to make this harder that what it is...

From Merriam-Webster:

trans- (prefix)
1) On or to the other side of : across or beyond
2) So as to change in form or position

gender
2) the behavioral, cultural or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

So, crossing, or changing, from the behavioral, cultural or psychological traits associated from one sex to another. Simply put, that's how the word breaks down. Any other definition would indicate that someone is trying to bend the language for their own purposes.

However, note that there is no implication of frequency, reason, going out or staying home or whether the journey is one time-one way or back and forth. All it says it that a boundary is crossed. If this isn't what is meant, then someone chose the wrong words as this meaning is pretty clear.

DeeAnn

ReineD

05-09-2015, 05:14 PM

its simply a fact that we also have to accept that in an open forum there is lots of BS, bad advice, conjecture, LIES, etcetc...

This is true. It is an open forum and people do need to take it with a grain of salt.

i will make a deal with you...if either of us notices the behavior you are worried about this we will double team them and set them straight!!
We clobber them together...it has to happen in the moment..otherwise its just broad general complaints about what "ts's" do or what "cd's" say and they are always going to devolve into nothing.

OK, it's a deal. lol ... when I'm here, which hasn't been all that much in the last year except just in recent weeks.

I did start that 7-page thread asking how many CDers would transition given the realities (which is a perfectly OK question to ask), that some people objected to or had things to say about, and so I did get involved in the resulting threads with my deeper opinions (kinda hard not to when I'm quoted in the OP).

Anyway, it was good to have these conversations and maybe this thread will help some people. But now I need to get back to the rest of my life. I've got a project due next Wednesday that I'm sorely behind in.

:hugs:

ReluctantDebutant

05-09-2015, 07:09 PM

2. Pretending there's some sort of magical way to predict whether or not someone will transition

I refuse to believe that there isn't. I am sure its not magical I am sure there is some reasonable rational way. Medical professionals must know. I sincerely doubt they just start handing out drugs and hormones to just anybody claiming to be trans. How do they determine who is eligible and who isn't? What are the criteria?

Could your recent post (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?227625-A-brief-comment-on-trans-identities-for-non-transgender-people) be a start? If someone didn't share those feelings?

I rather like Gendermutt's therapist's quote: "I also go back to early in my own journey I started some 2 and a half years ago when going to a very good gender therapist who has no agenda. What he said was that part of being TS, a big part of what defines a TS is not how much you like or want to be feminine, but how much you dislike being male or masculine. If you are ok with being a guy, regardless of how much you like or want to be feminine, then it is not a correct path to take to transition."
I heard something similar many years before it kind of stuck with me.

Granted there may not be just one predictor I am sure there are a few that can eliminate a person form the running or at the very least reduce or increase chances. While as you pointed out that GDs and CDs have very many similar behaviors there are probably very subtle differences that can be indicators.

Also if there is no way to predict wouldn't this negate what I have heard from many Trans, "you just don't wake up one morning a decide to be a woman" Would that not show that some knowledge of really being a woman beforehand? And that it is a long period of denial reaching critical mass? That prior knowledge being denied would be an indicator.

This would be a very productive line of enquiry. I can't be the first

Eryn

05-09-2015, 10:29 PM

...There is a gulf between CDers who plateau at simply dressing and transsexuals - for the old-fashioned physicists among us, I see this (very simplistically) as similar to energy levels in quantum physics... it appears to be a spectrum, but in fact there are distinct states - levels - that we reach and feel comfortable with....

Quantum effects occur at the atomic level and quantum effects blur out quickly as scale increases. They do not occur at macroscopic levels

The transgender spectrum is pretty obviously a continuum. There are some pretty definite markers or milestones that might be interpreted as levels. Unlike quanta, the exact placement of the milestones varies with the person. Some people see the spectrum like the emission spectrum of hydrogen:

245298

Four simple lines, called the Balmer lines, each the product of a transition between energy levels:

245299.

These are sufficient for many people and the simplicity is very attractive. However, the simplicity is deceptive. Physicists looked closer and found, not four, but fifteen transitions:

245300

Not to be outdone, others identified 30:

245301

These are the quantum transitions for the simplest hydrogen atom! Imagine how much more complex the levels of a psychological issue like transgenderism can be! There are so many and they overlap so much that they get ultimately get blurred together into a full spectrum.

We each have our own interpretation of where our significant steps lay and where we are on the spectrum. Many of us don't know definitely where we are and a lot of us didn't even know that we were on the spectrum until some random event led us to examine ourselves more closely.

Transgenderism isn't quantum physics, it's much more complicated! :)

I observe that the OP hasn't logged in in several days. I suppose we've been baited, but the resulting discussion has been interesting.

ReineD

05-10-2015, 02:28 AM

I rather like Gendermutt's therapist's quote: "I also go back to early in my own journey I started some 2 and a half years ago when going to a very good gender therapist who has no agenda. What he said was that part of being TS, a big part of what defines a TS is not how much you like or want to be feminine, but how much you dislike being male or masculine. If you are ok with being a guy, regardless of how much you like or want to be feminine, then it is not a correct path to take to transition."

Makes sense. I guess this is how so many people know they are not interested in transition.

(I know I'm supposed to be working, but I'm taking a break. :p)

The transgender spectrum is pretty obviously a continuum. There are some pretty definite markers or milestones that might be interpreted as levels.

So when you google "crossdressers" and you are presented with millions of sites that feature porn, exaggerated breast forms (and other apparatus that look like female body parts and that emulate female bodily functions), fetish-type clothing (lolita dresses, nurses' and other costumes, all manner of lingerie, mile-high heels), meet-up sites, dating sites, sex chat rooms or private discussion boards, images on hosting sites featuring all manner of CDers in various forms of undress on beds, straddling stuff, legs up in the air, etc ...... do you really think their motive for dressing is the same as the members in our TS section? The bulk of crossdressers out there would not join this forum because it doesn't cater to their reasons for dressing, which is sexual and for fun. I'm sorry, but I see no continuum there.

In this forum, we only really have several hundred people (give or take) who post on a regular basis, and even fewer who go out dressed in regular clothing and who engage in regular day-to-day activities. If more people log in than that, are they here to only look at the Gallery? Do they log in once or less per month to read a few posts? This is not gender dysphoria. Of the people who do post here regularly, there was a sizable amount who said they are not and will not be interested in transition. This seems to conform to forum statistics of people who were distressed enough to post in the TS section, vs. those who weren't.

I've been here for a good many years. In fact, I honestly think you all should make me an honorary TG. :) Anyway, I know why some past frequent participants do not come any more. They aged, and it is simply not satisfactory to go out looking like an older woman. My own SO said the same thing to me recently and I do see a marked decrease in her feminine expression. This is not gender dysphoria. We have tens of thousands of people who have passed through these doors and who are no longer here. We have quite a few people here who do not even attempt to go out looking like women, they just like wearing the clothes. And countless others who are strictly underdressers. This is not gender dysphoria.

I just wanted to put this into perspective.

For you and other TSs, please do not misunderstand me. I am not invalidating your experiences. I am saying there are two general categories of people who dress: fetish (for the bulk of crossdressers who are not members here) and gender identity, with some overlap of people who do not dress for fetish but who also do not have GD, plus some people who have a non-binary gender identity.

Eryn, I'm impressed with your lesson in Physics. Light is a spectrum too. But what else is in our physical world that is not a spectrum?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the suicides mentioned earlier. Here are statistics from the Williams Institute.

There are slightly more FtM suicides than MtF. The highest rates of suicide are among young TGs (18-24), multi-racial, American Indian or native American TGs, those who have lower levels of educational attainment and lower annual household income, and the TGs who have come out to others, or who appear TG to others even though they have not told anyone. They are more visible and therefore targeted.

The lowest rates are among CDing men, most of whom are married.

So I guess if a CD member here is married and doesn't go out, to encourage him to do otherwise would actually increase the risk of suicide. Food for thought.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

AnnieMac

05-10-2015, 07:34 AM

Geesh! Eryn, overthink this whole thing much? Crossdressing isn't your problem, dude, you need a girlfriend!
Haha, I'm just teasing you honey - much girly love your way, hun! - Annie

Suzie Petersen

05-10-2015, 09:15 AM

A friend wrote to me this morning, asking what I thought of this debate and I was about to reply to her. Then I thought, since I do have an opinion, it would be dishonest not to share it here within the debate itself, so here goes for my $0.02.

Going back to the OP's basic point (at least my interpretation of it) "Any claims about the likelihood of CD'ers eventually transitioning, can be damaging to the effort of a CD'er who is trying to convince his wife that he has no such intentions!".

I believe that is true.

A concerned wife who is reading this forum will likely get more concerned the more often she reads about someone who was "just" a CD now suddenly transitioning and she will get concerned by reading "predictions" of how that will likely happen to some/many/all others.
It doesn't matter that it might be factually true that some will and it doesn't matter what the statistical probability is. It is not helping to point it out for the one who is trying to calm down a concerned wife. That was the point of the OP and I agree.

Without making any other comparisons, so dont jump on me for this one, just try and see the point I am making .... when you end up in the emergency room with chest pain, and your very concerned wife is there with you, it doesnt help anybody that some other patient declares loudly that some of us in the room will die today because statistics say that X% dont survive! Thats not what you need to hear while you are trying to calm down your wife, weather or not it is true! You know you just ate that potato a little too fast without chewing, but she thinks you are about to croak from a heart attack!

I used to be very active in a live chat room years ago. This was back when I was still dressing and sometimes going out with friends. I really wanted my wife to get to know some of these people, for her to see that they were good normal people with all kinds of interesting professions and backgrounds and that we just happened to share this fun thing of dressing and presenting like girls sometimes.
A few times she did visit the chat room with me and things were fine, until someone started expressing thoughts which were not at all in line with what I was about. Being a live chatroom, it could not be instantly moderated and now and then someone would say something of a sexual nature for instance. I had absolutely no interest in that and would ignore it, but my wife saw it and instantly assumed that this was part of what was going on! It was not normal at all, but she picked it up immediately and missed all the good conversations because of it. After that, the game was lost for me and I could no longer get her to visit with my friends. She had made up her mind about the chat room and frankly, seeing the negative effect it had, I didnt really want her there either because I knew it was bound to happen again.

I dont think any of the involved people in the debate here are consciously trying to recruit anyone besides I dont for a moment believe you can be recruited to become TS, but, if my wife read this, she would absolutely get that impression sometimes! And that is a problem for some of us, and that is why I would never suggest to my wife to read anything here. The damage it could do in our relationship is unmeasurable.

The point of the OP's post was to ask to maybe tone it down a little. Those of us who have been aware of our gender issues for a lifetime have learned how to separate things and we get involved in talks that relate to where we are in life and stay out of topics that do not. But, those who are just now trying to find themselves, or wifes who just now try to figure out what it all means, can easily get the wrong idea. They dont know what to believe and what not to.

- Suzie

Dianne S

05-10-2015, 10:27 AM

Suzie,

I understand what you're saying. But I don't think people posting on this forum should refrain from speaking what they see as the truth in order to protect the concerned partner of a CDer.

Like it or not, if you come out to your partner as a CDer, he or she will be concerned, is very likely to go poking around in the Internet for more information, and is extremely likely to encounter material that's far more disturbing than anything on this forum.

If you are worried about the effects of postings in this forum, then don't visit it and don't tell your SO about it.

Kaitlyn Michele

05-10-2015, 11:13 AM

yep...

i will say it again.. you can't stop somebody from sharing real life experience.... if as Reine and others say and its over the top then i guess there is a debate as to what that means but it should be an in the moment thing and should relate to very specific comments that can be shared and talked about..

what susie you are basically saying is you want the forum run for YOUR interests and you are projecting your shared best interests (along with the OP and others) in an attempt to silence voices that have their own best interests in minds..
it aint gonna happen and it shouldn't happen..

frankly the much more common issue for cd's wives is that so many of you want to dress more and more...that is much more common an issue than "OMG I"M TS!!" type of revelations...

should we ask those folks to not post their struggles?? maybe a wife reads that and worries her husband will want to go outside....

If you want a wife friendly forum for straight married cd's that like to fully dress and swear on a stack of bibles they are cd's and that they will never ask their wives to accommodate any more dressing or feminine expression, then start that forum...and i guarantee you'd end up in the same place when the first one can't keep their promise...

people say tone it down a little... this is the toned down version..

Suzie Petersen

05-10-2015, 11:16 AM

Dianne,

I agree with you, and that is part of the problem I personally have actually. If you read my post carefully, I dont try to tell anyone what to say or what not to say, I am just explaining the effect it can have on an SO who reads these pages. I dont know that there is any better way of doing this, but for me, and apparently for some others, it made things difficult.

To me, the point really is that everybody must be allowed to tell their story and anyone who wants to read it, should.
The problem, as I see it, is when we get into the prediction of what others will or will not do in the future. If we start talking about how large a percentage of the people who right now think they are CD will eventually transition, we get into speculation and can spend forever arguing over the numbers or the methods by which they were generated. But the thing is, it doesnt really matter, does it? I want to hear your story, and that of everybody else too, it is less important to me what the chance/risk is that someones assessment of what they are, might later turn out be wrong. There is nothing any of us can do about that anyway.
The reason it matters, is that it can have a very strong effect of an SO who is just now trying to figure it all out.

You are right, if it is a problem, dont come here. However, between us here, we probably collectively represent all the experience and knowledge in the world when it comes to gender. This _is_ the place to come to learn.

I dont like the "Us" and "Them" we sometimes end up with. To me, we are all the same and we are all different! Nobody is better than anyone else and nobody is all correct and everybody else all wrong. There is no scientific way of determining who are CD and who are TS or any of whatever number of other categories or levels anyone wants to come up with.

Frankly, on my path, I have identified better with TS woman than with most of the CD'ers I have met. I am not TS and I have thought about this quite a bit. I think for me it was because most TS women are more "normal" and at ease with themselves at the end of the journey. Here I go risking being pommeled again :)
So what do I mean by that? Well, TS women end up being just regular women with normal interests, normal lives etc. I know not everybody are so lucky, but that at least is the intention.
CD'ers however, cover the whole spectrum from fun loving normal people to completely messed up! Some are dressing up for reasons I dont want to have anything to do with, some disgust me to be honest.

When I tried to explain this to my wife, it probably didnt make any sense.

So my question would be this, for someone who is just now trying to figure this out, just now wanting to explain it to an SO, where should one go to give them other peoples input, without risking the SO only seeing transition as the outcome?
Every time I greet a new member who just told the wife/so, I tell them to be very careful because the wife most likely will seek information on the Internet and almost definitely will find all the nasty things which seem to be connected with this.

- Suzie

Edit: Since I cant issue a new post already and Kaitlyn and I were writing at the same time:

what susie you are basically saying is you want the forum run for YOUR interests and you are projecting your shared best interests (along with the OP and others) in an attempt to silence voices that have their own best interests in minds..
it aint gonna happen and it shouldn't happen..

So no, that was exactly not what I was saying. Please read my post again and also my new post.

Kaitlyn Michele

05-10-2015, 11:32 AM

you say suzie the reason it matters is that it can have a very strong effect of an SO who is just now trying to figure it all out.

only if you look at it from a perspective of keeping information away from people that are trying to figure it out can you have what you desire..

i agree...trying to say 20% or 2% of cd' will do this or that is wrong... nobody really knows

but unfortunately for cd's what that means is this true statement "some cd's are really not cd's, they are ts working it all out" stands on it own...
there is nothing you or anybody can say or do to change this,

and NOT saying it is misinformation

one more thing...you say you identify better with TS women.... you brought that up.... ... can you imagine a wife coming here for the first time...even the cd's are saying they identify with ts women...don't you see the irony in that?? what does it even mean to identify with ts women?? the fact that many cd's flirt with identifying as ts is a big deal and frankly much more prevalent than a couple of ts women that used to identify as cd's coming here and talking about it... many many many more cd's talk about being trans than actually are... what about issue? there are many many more threads that go "if only....then i would transition" than the messages we are debating here..

Suzie Petersen

05-10-2015, 11:56 AM

Kaitlyn,

I agree...trying to say 20% or 2% of cd' will do this or that is wrong... nobody really knows

Thats actually the point of what I am saying. Just that.
Predictions of what others will do or the "Whats the difference" joke, can have an unintended bad effect on some.

one more thing...you say you identify better with TS women.... you brought that up....

Let me change that right now. I would go back and change my original post, but that makes it had for others to read the whole thread.
No, I dont "identify" with TS women, bad choice of word there. I have often been in groups where I found that I was more "comfortable" around TS women.
As an example, I would rather sit on the counter in the kitchen in jeans and a T-shirt, talking about what was on the news this evening with TS women, than in the living room discussing who has what color panties on! I couldnt care less, and neither could the TS women.

- Suzie

ReineD

05-10-2015, 01:03 PM

It doesn't matter that it might be factually true that some will and it doesn't matter what the statistical probability is. It is not helping to point it out for the one who is trying to calm down a concerned wife.

Suzie, I agree that a common reaction among GGs (AND other CDers who might be looking for solutions), when they read about someone who used to think of themselves as CD and who now realize they are TS, is to internalize it and wonder if it will happen in their own lives. People tend to pay more attention to the more vocal exceptions than the often silent norms. When people experience no change in their lives, they don't tend to talk about it so it makes sense we would hear more from the CD-identified-to-TS-identified people than others.

But, this doesn't mean that we must hide the fact that it happens. I think that people who do eventually realize they are TS should come out and celebrate it. But, for them or others to insinuate this is a potential for everyone is wrong, IMO. I think the responsible thing is to continually place this in perspective with all the evidence we have that shows it happens to only a small percentage of people. I don't blame the CD-identified-to-TS-identified people for not pointing this out, they are understandably focused on their own journeys, but others can point it out and it shouldn't be taken that they are "against" transition or TSs when they do.

Suzie Petersen

05-10-2015, 01:58 PM

Reine,

Reine, your observations are as usual very very good and well balanced. I sometimes wonder if you in fact is a professional gender counselor planted here among us to help keep things in perspective :)

ReineD: But, this doesn't mean that we must hide the fact that it happens. I think that people who do eventually realize they are TS should come out and celebrate it.

Oh I absolutely agree and I am certainly not advertising that people should not tell their stories. I fell we should all celebrate with them or with anyone who find their path in life, whatever it might be.

ReineD: But, for them or others to insinuate this is a potential for everyone is wrong, IMO.

And that is what I feel this thread is actually about. I cannot go back and find quotes from this or that person as proof, but I have heard people, usually TS women, make statements to the point of "All CD's want to transition, you just dont have the guts!". I dont believe that to be true and I feel it is distorting the picture when someone says things like that. And to the point of this thread, it will make some wifes go "See!!".
What makes it difficult of course, is that for some, that is exactly what they feel happened to them! They thought and believed they were "just" CD and later realized they in fact are TS.

How do you convincingly explain to an SO what this is about and what you intend to do, when you dont yet know yourself? To your point, people who experienced change are often more vocal about it than people who do/did not. How can I say that I will not transition? All I can say for sure, is that I have not, yet! I can think and feel that I never will, but I can not argue against someone who claims that I might!

So the point in this thread that I am talking about, and which I believe was the core of the OP post, is that when someone start on the conclusions and probabilities, while talking about a group of people which cannot easily be accurately surveyed, we get into risky territory. However, someone visiting only a few times and who is worried about what the future holds for a CD'ing spouse, could easily read these statements as fact.

- Suzie

ReluctantDebutant

05-10-2015, 02:25 PM

It just occurred to me that in some way I add to this problem. If the problem is that too many CDers and their SOs read to many transition stories that are on the one end can be caused by there being a lack of stories on the other end.

If you think about it there are not very many personal CD stories to tell. The personal stories usually involve a collection of firsts; first time dressed, first time out , first makeover, etc... After those stories are done the conversation tend to lead to the common interests of the CDing community and cease being really personal; Underwear threads, Who do you want to look like threads, How to tips etc... A person's story does get interesting again when a new set of firsts happen; Going to see a therapist, Getting a script for hormones, going in for surgery etc... Now obviously no one's stories end but if there is nothing worthy of writing home about they wouldn't post it to the forum either. To the outside observer it could appear that a CD's tale is just an incomplete TS tale when it actuality it is going to go no further.

My story could be helpful to CDers and their SOs for balancing out all those transition stories. I have greatly throttled back my cross-dressing. While I am hesitant to say the "quit" word I will say I am no longer living a cross-dressing centered life anymore. A story like mine would show an alternative to the progression one and would perhaps alleviate those same fear I had those few years ago. But let's face it is really hard to come on a cross-dressers forum and talk about not dressing. Its not like I would post "Wore pants and a t-shirt today and felt great." threads. I wouldn't seem appropriate here. How many people would see that and say "what does that have to do with anything"? How many would think its flaunting in front of those who feel they can't stop (I once felt like I couldn't stop)? How many would feel that that message is toxic to those who need to transition, I am giving false hope that this can end?

I have stuck around hoping to be a beacon to those like me that need to follow a similar path. But without anything CD related going on in my life, I really have nothing to write about here. And that may be part of the problem CDers who have quit, lessen, or found balance in CDing might not have much to say or have left the forum. I am in a constant state of feeling I don't need to log on here anymore. I do this place is still helpful even to me. So maybe that's it man becomes woman is still a man bites dog story while man stops cross-dressing is just dog bites man.

ReineD

05-10-2015, 02:26 PM

How do you convincingly explain to an SO what this is about and what you intend to do, when you dont yet know yourself? To your point, people who experienced change are often more vocal about it than people who do/did not. How can I say that I will not transition? All I can say for sure, is that I have not, yet! I can think and feel that I never will, but I can not argue against someone who claims that I might!

OK, I see two questions here:

1. How can I explain to my wife that I do not want to transition.
2. How can I possibly know what is in the future for me.

My opinion:

1. A lot, if not most wives cannot tell the difference between a CDer who wants to look convincingly like a woman in order to go out, and someone who will want to eventually live as a woman full time. And as long as a wife sees her husband ramping it up (going from CDer-type clothes to a good (and expansive) working wardrobe, shaving more parts of the body on a regular basis, tweezing eyebrows, piercing ears, growing out fingernails and hair (if possible), getting laser beard removal possibly, going out to more and more places, she (likely) WILL NOT know that the aim is to be completely gender-flexible. But, once a CDer reaches the desired level of appearance, and gets into a routine of going out regularly (whether this is once or three times per week), and he stays at that level for years and is happy, then she will see that the end-point has been reached.

This is what happened to me. Things did stabilize after a while and there were no more changes, plus things even began to take a back seat as my SO aged. There has been very little feminine expression in the last few years compared to before, and this is not because my SO is repressing himself.

2. OK, I realize that some people do not know who they are and this was especially true when there were no internet resources, when the expression of a feminine self (for MtFs) was akin to potentially being lynched out in public (years ago), when the attitude was that CDers and TSs are freaks of nature (sorry, but people did use to think this). It makes sense that people would have repressed this.

But now? We have online resources, discussion forums, advocacy groups, there are tons of videos on youtube that show birth-males how to look like women, if a person does not know whether or not they feel distressed with their male bodies, then I don't know what to say. Transsexualism is not something that "pops up" out of the blue well into an adult's life.

So if "how far it goes" means looking convincingly like a woman enough to go out and interact with others, and not feeling afraid to do so, then you can pretty well say that this is standard procedure for a lot of CDers. And if you have reached this point and you are happy, then why do you think that things would change. Do you want permanent breasts now? Do you want to get rid of your male life and male sexual functioning now? Do you want to come out to your family, friends, and coworkers now and have them think of you as a woman?

If not, then what makes you think this will change. But, if you DO want all these things now, then maybe you are TS.

I have greatly throttled back my cross-dressing

You aren't the only one. But, this forum is more focused on moving the CDing forward (it is after all a support forum for people who are learning to do this), and so it is not surprising that people who have lost the degree of interest they once had will not post threads that run counter to this. It is simply easier to put the forum behind them and move on once their interest has abated. My own SO has not posted here in years and she did not transition.

becky77

05-10-2015, 03:27 PM

It would help if instead of all the misinterpretation and label doomsayers we had a bit more education on what it is to be TS or CD or other.
The problem as I have stated before is that there is no recognised definition for those in the middle 'the other'. These people are almost left having to choose which side they are on when in fact it would be better to expand on what it is to be a middle pather.

We all know what drives a standard CDer, be it sexual or other it is all about the clothes and there is no issue with internal identity.
A TS is nothing like a CDer, the clothes may have played a part at some stage but typically it is all about identity, a constant life struggle questioning your gender.
CD -man who has something that makes them want to crossdress.
TS - born male but is in fact female of mind, in the early stages a TS may well be mistaken for a CD but a CD will never become a TS.

Then we have those somewhere in between and not a lot is spoken of this area, it's vague at best and they are either told they are just a CDer or that they could be TS. Society can't grasp a middle gender and it doesn't help if we can't understand it either.

What is it that makes someone that identifies as male, feels secure in their masculinity but wants to not only wear women's clothing but go out and be seen in public that way. This is far beyond anything sexual or a relaxing past time. Said person is clearly not TS as they are not unhappy with their masculinity, so what is happening here?
It is easy to mistakenly think that person is on the road to transition but why would they even consider transition, if there is no internal gender struggle going on? So what are they aiming for??

Will a CD become a TS? no. Will they transition? that's a better question.
I think to better learn we need frank stories of those that feel they fit in the middle, why they do what they do, why despite no intention of transition or no problem with being male, they seek hormones, breasts etc.

As a TS I personally do not understand why a man (happy being a man), wants to take it to that next step and go out dressed as a woman and act like a woman. You can't blame someone for questioning if he could be TS without knowing.

And if I don't understand it how can a GG?

Katey888

05-10-2015, 03:48 PM

Being in a bit of a CD hiatus at the moment, for some reason the more I read the debates in this thread the more it's niggling me... but for a couple of late contributions are worth stressing for the points they have made:

Going back to the OP's basic point (at least my interpretation of it) "Any claims about the likelihood of CD'ers eventually transitioning, can be damaging to the effort of a CD'er who is trying to convince his wife that he has no such intentions!".

I believe that is true.

Suzie - it's right to address the OPs point here and I also would agree with this in general terms - but Eryn's point about the validity of the assertion remains relatively overlooked although it may have been happily pounced upon as a convenient vehicle. Look back over a few pages of the MtF forum and the vast majority of posts are about getting out; struggling with self- and SO-acceptance; and a lot about personal experiences and progress of all types, with a few notables that I would consider 'TS' for this part of the forum, but heavily in the minority and certainly only relating a personal success story and not banging a TS drum to rally recruits... I fear Eryn may be partially correct about everyone being a little stirred up by this, but it also seems to have developed some misinformation of it's own! :thinking:

It just occurred to me that in some way I add to this problem. If the problem is that too many CDers and their SOs read to many transition stories that are on the one end can be caused by there being a lack of stories on the other end.

Me too RD. 97 days non-dressing here... I expect it will change soon but I also feel like I've reached a comfort zone, not that I was hugely uncomfortable or pink-fogged before. This forum HAS helped me with self-acceptance and part of that has come because I have drawn on the experiences of others to go that little bit further (in presentation only - NOT in my internal identity) and that fulfilment has led me to also step back from the frequency I was dressing in past years. I still know this isn't going away; and I still know that I am nowhere near the TS end of any spectrum, but if you look at the forum over time you will also see the examples Kaitlyn speaks of: those who are genuinely unaware but for whom the advice and examples of our TS sisters here can sometimes be nothing short of life-saving. But 99% of that discussion is in the TS forum - not here. I think the original assertion (and I said this a while back) is misleading because we happen to have had a few notable discussions around transitioning recently - and it skews the apparent subject matter, but nonetheless should remain.

Eryn: Thanks for getting everyone's head spinning - I did say, my example was simplistic :) - but to me it reiterates the importance of understanding the nature of what motivates us as individuals; where we sit on the whole spectrum/ mosaic/ staircase/ escalator thing; and why it is so important that medical science makes more effort to understand why we're driven to do what we do. Because this following comment for me is just too simplistic:

I am saying there are two general categories of people who dress: fetish (for the bulk of crossdressers who are not members here) and gender identity, with some overlap of people who do not dress for fetish but who also do not have GD, plus some people who have a non-binary gender identity.

Reine - I believe you do have a valid perspective and a very knowledgeable one as an SO and GG, but you cannot know or begin to understand the raw confusion and conflict that this condition brings to someone like me, who has no overtly feminine traits, who has experienced both sexual and non-sexual aspects of this, who has struggled to rationalise a relentless urge to do something that just makes so little sense and offers so much risk (in my own circumstances) and yet finds more understanding and kindred feelings with TS folk because they too understand the conflict, the contradiction, the pressures and the stress of not doing this, where a cisgendered person just cannot comprehend. (I think this might have been what Suzie alluded to also.)

You simply cannot know this kind of internal conflict and confusion as you are blessed with being gender straight... I can only imagine how much more this must be for someone who is TS or just approaching it, and that is why we must remain open to the discussion and suggestion and possibility that folk who come here for support should have every possibility open for discussion.

OK - rant off now... Was going to say more but probably should just go and.. :wine:

Katey x

Suzie Petersen

05-10-2015, 03:53 PM

Oh bugger. I just wrote a long response and lost it :( Because I timed out, I had to log in again and that for some reason didnt go so well.
Oh well.

Dianne S

05-10-2015, 04:05 PM

Transsexualism is not something that "pops up" out of the blue well into an adult's life.

It isn't usually, but it can happen.

Sure, after it happens we can look back and say "Yeah, ok there were obvious signs."

But I say again: It can happen that someone who honestly, truly believes he is "just" a crossdresser finds out later in life that she is in fact TS. The fact that there's the Internet today doesn't mean that everyone comes to the realization at an early age.

ReluctantDebutant

05-10-2015, 04:16 PM

As a TS I personally do not understand why a man (happy being a man), wants to take it to that next step and go out dressed as a woman and act like a woman.

Well when dressing at home gets mundane something needs to make it exciting again. In steps the human nature of risk taking or gambling. Going out an passing as a woman you win the game of cross-dressing or at least this match. Everytime you are ignored or better yet a male's head turn you get confirmation of you accomplishment. its the CD equivalent of catching a 25lbs trout in fishing.

Suzie Petersen

05-10-2015, 04:40 PM

I lost my train of thought on the "evaporated" response so, here is another fresh one.

ReluctantDebutant: It just occurred to me that in some way I add to this problem. If the problem is that too many CDers and their SOs read to many transition stories that are on the one end can be caused by there being a lack of stories on the other end.

I think you are right in that.

ReineD: A lot, if not most wives cannot tell the difference between a CDer who wants to look convincingly like a woman in order to go out, and someone who will want to eventually live as a woman full time.

And you certainly cant blame anyone for being worried about that.

But once again, back to the essense of this. I dont think it is relevant to attempt to post statistics or predictions about how many will or will not transition. It is guesswork and doesnt really help anyone anyway. For instance, someone who is in doubt if he/she is TS .. does it help him/her to "know" that X% eventually transition? No, what matters is what is right for them, not for everybody else. But to an SO who drops in here, looking for help, some of those predictions might be taken for fact and can make them much less willing to try and find a balance with their CD'ing SO.
That is basically what happened to me and my wife. She developed the impression that most CD'ers transition and she stopped trying to find a compromise. It ended up black and white with no shades.

Likewise, it is an unpleasant and unfortunate fact that some transitioned TS women/men end up finding that the grass was not greener on the other side and that transition did not fix all things in their life. Some of them end up tragically taking their own lives.
While that fact is an important part of the whole story about gender issues, does it help anyone who might be thinking about transition to see a debate of what the probability is or what the percentage is of people who end up dead? I dont think so, I think it just increases the risk that those who need to transition might have less of a chance to get the support they need from their spouse because of a fear of the worst.

Like RD and and a little like Katey, although I think Katey is just on break right now :) I am also not living the CD'er life now. I stopped dressing several years ago to save my marriage. My wife and my children are more important to me than the dressing and I stopped.
I joined this forum, not to seek advise or get help with any of that, but to potentially help others by sharing my views and my story. I am attempting to see things from all sides, not just mine. I dont have a personal agenda, but an interest in ultimately getting everybody to play nice together, CD'ers, TS's, SO's and the rest of the world.

We need to be more understanding of each other and attempt to see things from other peoples point of view. When someone says that it is really not helpful to them when others paints a dark picture, factual or not, the response should not be "If you dont like it, you can just shove off and not log in! The response should be "How can be change our behavior such that these concerns are also considered."

- Suzie

Dianne S

05-10-2015, 05:28 PM

For instance, someone who is in doubt if he/she is TS .. does it help him/her to "know" that X% eventually transition?

It depends what X is, doesn't it? And really we have no hard data, so it's just guesswork.

I agree with you that no-one should ever suggest to someone else "I think you are transsexual" or "I don't think you are transsexual." But I think it's quite legitimate to say that some TSes didn't completely realize or accept the fact that they were TS until relatively late in life, believing themselves to be CDers. I'm never of the view that less information is better than more information.

She developed the impression that most CD'ers transition and she stopped trying to find a compromise.

But maybe if she knew that even though some CDers transition, the overwhelming majority never do and never even want to, it would have helped? I don't know. Humans are horrible at gauging risk and probability so sometimes we obsess over unlikely but extreme things while ignoring far more common but prosaic things.

flatlander_48

05-10-2015, 05:53 PM

Suzie Petersen

05-10-2015, 06:24 PM

It depends what X is, doesn't it? And really we have no hard data, so it's just guesswork.

No actually, if X is not unquestionably scientifically provable 100%, then no, I dont think it matters what X is. And I agree, we do not know, and that is part of my point, we dont, but to the person who is new to a forum like this, the words of someone who speaks with authority can easily be taken as hard facts.

But maybe if she knew that even though some CDers transition, the overwhelming majority never do and never even want to, it would have helped?

Oh I think that possibly could help, but what we are talking about here, is the few who talk about "Many" and "Most" and "Always" and "Eventually" etc. Thats where it becomes a potential problem and I dont think any of those words accurately describe the facts.
Again, this is not about me, but I will use my path as an example. My wife was looking for _proof_ that she was right! "Dressing is the gate-drug to transitioning!". If you like to dress as a woman now, you will eventually have the bits snipped off, live as a woman and start having sex with men! So ergo, I (my wife) am doomed in this relationship because you are going to leave me for a man sooner or later!
NO! No intention of that and absolutely no interest in any of that. I wish I could explain what it is I feel inside, but I cant. However, I do know that that, is not it!

So when an SO comes here looking for answers, and someone talks about numbers, and probability, it is not helping!

- Suzie

ReineD

05-10-2015, 06:51 PM

but you cannot know or begin to understand the raw confusion and conflict that this condition brings to someone like me, who has no overtly feminine traits, who has experienced both sexual and non-sexual aspects of this, who has struggled to rationalise a relentless urge to do something that just makes so little sense and offers so much risk (in my own circumstances) and yet finds more understanding and kindred feelings with TS folk because they too understand the conflict, the contradiction, the pressures and the stress of not doing this, where a cisgendered person just cannot comprehend. (I think this might have been what Suzie alluded to also.)

You simply cannot know this kind of internal conflict and confusion as you are blessed with being gender straight... I can only imagine how much more this must be for someone who is TS or just approaching it, and that is why we must remain open to the discussion and suggestion and possibility that folk who come here for support should have every possibility open for discussion.

You're right, I don't experience this.

So let me ask you questions about your quote above:

who has experienced both sexual and non-sexual aspects of this, who has struggled to rationalise a relentless urge to do something that just makes so little sense and offers so much risk (in my own circumstances)

You have a relentless urge to dress, and it is no longer or rarely sexual. I'd say this describes a lot if not most of the CD members who go out in public regularly, including my SO (except my SO's urges have abated in recent years, compared to the years before). Are you saying that because it is no longer sexual, you are beginning to wonder, or you wonder sometimes, if the possibility of being TS might be in the cards for you in the future? (I'm doing my best to try to understand).

So your relentless urge to dress ... is this all the time or are there times when you go about your male life not thinking about it (when you do things with your wife, or see relatives, or do things with friends, or work, etc). Does having an urge to dress mean that you want to change your body and go full time.

and yet finds more understanding and kindred feelings with TS folk because they too understand the conflict, the contradiction, the pressures and the stress of not doing this,

Also, they're not into the "beginner CD" mindset of things like panty & pantyhose threads. You're past that too. Do you see yourself as having the same dysphoria about your body that TSs have and is this the source of your conflict. Or, is it rather a question of wondering why you have such strong urges to dress.

Edit - General note to everyone:

I think this is turning out to be one of the best, most productive conversations we've ever had in the forum between CDers and TSs. There's a lot of honesty in this thread, and no one is getting angry or feeling insulted (as far as I can tell). Really good stuff.

Dianne S

05-10-2015, 07:33 PM

No actually, if X is not unquestionably scientifically provable 100%, then no, I dont think it matters what X is.

Seriously? What in life is 100% provable? Almost nothing. The whole human experience is one of uncertainty and guesswork. If you can't accept that, you're doomed.

And also, to me in certain situations, X makes a huge difference. I would not get on a plane that had a 1% chance of crashing, but I'd certainly get on one that had a 0.00001% chance (that's 1 in ten million.)

but what we are talking about here, is the few who talk about "Many" and "Most" and "Always" and "Eventually" etc.

Sorry, I don't actually recall anyone saying "Always", "Most" or "Many." Everything I've read from TSes on this site is that a "few" CDers will eventually transition, but that most will not.

My wife was looking for _proof_ that she was right!

OK, this may come across as callous or blunt, but I truly mean no harm: How resilient is the relationship to begin with if one person makes decisions based on what a few strangers post on forums rather than based on the heartfelt statements of her SO? I mean really, do SO's actually take stuff on this forum that much to heart?

LucyNewport

05-10-2015, 07:49 PM

As an original s***-stirrer on this topic and heretofore confirmed middle-pather, I can only explain what drives me. I go out in full drag on the semi-regular and have for years. I do my best to appear as an ordinary woman - not an over the top drag performer. I try to blend. These activities are generally not sexual in nature but just feel right on a really deep emotional level.

I have mostly used the label of crossdresser to describe myself because it seemed like a safe identity that did not demand much of me. It does not require diagnosis by a medical professional or expensive treatments. Being TS implies an action plan that I wasn't ready to put in motion for a variety of reasons. Being a CD meant I could avoid nuking my marriage.

However, I was never comfortable in my male role. I feel like an imposter when I put on traditional menswear like any sort of professional clothing. Anything more male gendered than my jeans + tshirt uniform makes me very ill at ease. (This is not a reaction I get when I'm dolled up like an office lady.)

The middle path, such as it is, is an unstable and difficult place to be. It means not quite fitting into either camp. It is rarely an end point I think. Personally I feel a bit like an airplane in a holding pattern, trying to pick a runway before the fuel runs out.

ReineD

05-10-2015, 08:21 PM

OK, this may come across as callous or blunt, but I truly mean no harm: How resilient is the relationship to begin with if one person makes decisions based on what a few strangers post on forums rather than based on the heartfelt statements of her SO? I mean really, do SO's actually take stuff on this forum that much to heart?

Well, this I can address because it's right up my alley.

Even when GGs (sorry, but many? most? some? ... anyway a lot of the GGs I've spoken to) have the conversations with their husbands about not wanting to transition and not wanting to have sex with men, there is still a lot of uncertainty. One, most GGs were not told at the beginning of their relationships, and so they wonder what else their husbands aren't telling them. Trust has already been broken once. But even if they were told in the beginning like me, if their husbands are at the point of going to from point A to D on the crossdressing scale (from mostly closeted while having a small box of clothes, to wanting to go out and expanding the wardrobe, perfecting the appearance, etc), they'll hear the words but because they don't understand the differences between CD and TS, they'll think it's all one and the same thing. So the comments from the TSs who say they used to think of themselves as CD will cause the wives to think, "See? I knew it all along! My husband is going to transition but he's in denial about it").

In a way, you could say that many GGs think of it along the same lines that many TSs do. And it takes a while for a wife to gain a deeper understanding of what this means to her husband.

My SO told me that he actually went into the GM section here, 7 years ago I believe, and asked the members there how he could convince me that he was not transitioning!

I don't know if you read my earlier post, but it is only when a CDer has done developing and perfecting the appearance, has gone out lots in the mainstream to the point of having it not be so new and exciting anymore (which can take 3-4 years or maybe more), and has plateau'd so to speak, that the wife will see with her own eyes that it is not progressing any further to wanting bodily modifications and desiring to come out to all and sundry.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that TSs should stop sharing their personal experiences here, but it's always good to keep in mind the percentages of people who actually do transition vs. those who don't. I think it's important though for TSs to not suggest to CDs who post in the CD section they might be TS. That's a little much. Also, unless things have changed in the TS section since I was involved, people there used to say that they always knew at some level they were TS. So maybe there's a new breed of TSs coming up now, people who honestly did not have a clue they had GD until their 50s?

Eryn

05-10-2015, 08:40 PM

It isn't usually, but it can happen.

Sure, after it happens we can look back and say "Yeah, ok there were obvious signs."

But I say again: It can happen that someone who honestly, truly believes he is "just" a crossdresser finds out later in life that she is in fact TS. The fact that there's the Internet today doesn't mean that everyone comes to the realization at an early age.

Thank you, Dianne, for saying precisely what I've been trying to get across. In fact, one can even go from being a "typical" male to CD and then proceed along the spectrum. It all depends upon one's upbringing and peer group. I went through most of my life knowing that I wasn't a CDer because being a CDer was defined in my head as being very abnormal. Something changed in my 50s and I went through the typical slide into CDing. Underdressing, experiments with clothing and makeup, and eventually going out in public. Even at that point I felt a stigma about the TS end of the spectrum and therefore it took me additional time to admit to myself that this might actually be a possibility for me.

Yes, I can also look back at events in my past and see signs that I was on the spectrum then, but I lacked the background to understand those signs.

Geesh! Eryn, overthink this whole thing much? Crossdressing isn't your problem, dude, you need a girlfriend!
Haha, I'm just teasing you honey - much girly love your way, hun! - Annie

Well, I probably did, but the exercise was fun. Everyone talks about quantum effects but most don't know what a quantum effect truly is.

Oh bugger. I just wrote a long response and lost it :( Because I timed out, I had to log in again and that for some reason didnt go so well.
Oh well.

Suzie, when you log in, check the "remember me" box. The system will then remember you until you log out, eliminating its unfortunate tendency to trash your work. It will forget you as soon as you log out manually. The timeout parameter is changable in the forum software, but this forum has it set very short.

Suzie Petersen

05-10-2015, 10:47 PM

Gosh I wish we were sitting all together somewhere nice, having this conversation over a glass of wine!

ReineD: I think this is turning out to be one of the best, most productive conversations we've ever had in the forum between CDers and TSs. There's a lot of honesty in this thread, and no one is getting angry or feeling insulted (as far as I can tell). Really good stuff.

I agree Reine, this is a good debate and it might help us all understand each other better. Thats what it is all about for me, having good productive discussions everybody can learn from and which might later serve as unbiased information for others.

I apologize for hijacking a question for Katey, but I have a comment on the following:

ReineD: You have a relentless urge to dress, and it is no longer or rarely sexual. I'd say this describes a lot if not most of the CD members who go out in public regularly, including my SO (except my SO's urges have abated in recent years, compared to the years before). Are you saying that because it is no longer sexual, you are beginning to wonder, or you wonder sometimes, if the possibility of being TS might be in the cards for you in the future? (I'm doing my best to try to understand).

So your relentless urge to dress ... is this all the time or are there times when you go about your male life not thinking about it (when you do things with your wife, or see relatives, or do things with friends, or work, etc). Does having an urge to dress mean that you want to change your body and go full time.

First, this is really off topic and worthy of another thread.
For me, No, the lack of a sexual stimulation does not mean it has turned towards a desire of transition. I suspect that for some or maybe many TS, it was never sexual but more of a discomfort with the "parts" and the role. But, I dont know this, I am just interpreting what good TS friends have described to me.

The second part, again just for myself, this feeling was never something constant, and there were many many occasions where I didnt even think of it. I always felt comfortable being male and I still do. Every now and then, I enjoyed the feeling of expressing the more traditional female role and be allowed to pretty up. I also really enjoyed the challenge of seeing how perfect I could make the illusion!

Diane S: And also, to me in certain situations, X makes a huge difference. I would not get on a plane that had a 1% chance of crashing, but I'd certainly get on one that had a 0.00001% chance (that's 1 in ten million.)

But thats the ting! Would you actually like the airlines to publicly list that probability on the website when you book your flight? Or would it make you unnecessarily concerned to know what the % chance of survival is this week? For me, I know there is a risk in flying, but I dont really want my choice of airline or route to be influenced by what the % of risk of my sudden death is! I would rather not let that influence my purchase nor my travel. I certainly dont want someone, mid flight, stand up and say "Chances are 1 to 70 that we will all perish during this flight! Just wanted y'all to know!, Have a nice flight!" I want to sit comfortably in my seat, knowing that the rest of those odd's are that I will make it to Salt Lake in one piece!

Diane S: Sorry, I don't actually recall anyone saying "Always", "Most" or "Many." Everything I've read from TSes on this site is that a "few" CDers will eventually transition, but that most will not.

Thats understandable, nobody expect you to remember or have read all posts. But if you go back and read the OP message, that is what this thread is all about. The feeling that some, in one way or another, say that this is the case. Some, All or Most CD'ers will eventually transition. That is the perception some here have gotten from other peoples previous posts. If you now start searching backwards for the exact words Always, Many, Most etc, you are unfortunately missing the point of the debate.

Diane S: I mean really, do SO's actually take stuff on this forum that much to heart?

Well yes, thats what this entire thread started out with. Thats the point! SO's come here to verify their fear or to search for statements to the contrary. Not my wife, again this is not at all about me. She has never seen this place and likely never will. It is about those who come here as _The only or first source of information_. It is about what they might deduct from a few posts from someone who sound like they know what they are talking about. It is not about someone who is studying this phenomena of gender. They will understand the stats better.

ReineD: they'll hear the words but because they don't understand the differences between CD and TS, they'll think it's all one and the same thing. So the comments from the TSs who say they used to think of themselves as CD will cause the wives to think, "See? I knew it all along! My husband is going to transition but he's in denial about it").

Exactly, and that obviously creates, or enforces, a concern which may not at all be justified. When you listen to how solid the "evidence" is, the person who says "This happened to me" counts stronger than all the ones who say "It hasnt happened to me, yet".

ReineD: I think it's important though for TSs to not suggest to CDs who post in the CD section they might be TS. That's a little much.

Yes, it is. And anybody claiming to know what percentage of CD'ers who will transition is, is also on thin ice and can cause problems for those who are not transitioning. And here we are, back at the topic at hand.

Eryn: In fact, one can even go from being a "typical" male to CD and then proceed along the spectrum. (there is a lot more to that quote really)

Yes Eryn, I know people who did that too. There a lot's of variants and some are pretty amazing. And it is important that those accounts are shared and people have a chance to learn from them.

Eryn: Suzie, when you log in, check the "remember me" box.

Thanks! That was driving me bunkers :)

- Suzie

DebbieL

05-10-2015, 11:38 PM

Chris is absolutely right. Most important is that there is no "cut and dried" or "set in stone" for either cross-dressers or anyone on the transgender spectrum. One of the reasons we came up with the term transgender was because we needed a term that covered that broad spectrum.

There are those who are type 6 transgender and have known for as long as they can remember that they were a girl and tried to masquerade as a boy, but they had to appease intolerant parents, ignorant peers, and many others. They had to live in stealth, and were forced to settle for "fetish dressing" because all they could obtain or steal without being noticed is the lingerie of a mother or sister. Often, they get married and become cross-dressers, because that's all the woman they love will tolerate, later they don't want to lose the career and respectability they have established over the years. They may not be able to transition until they are much older, closer to retirement age.

On the flip side, there are cross-dressers who are completely happy being male. They have never had the desire to be a woman, and probably never will. Even if you gave them a magic wand so that they could change back and forth, they would be girls for short periods of time, for sex, for parties, but they would spend nearly all of their lives being men.

In between, is a spectrum. Cross-dressers who discover they want to be girls only after spending an extended period of dressing. There are even seemingly cis-gender males who may not discover they are transgender until high school or college. Often such boys are quite unhappy as boys, being bullied, unable to socialize with most boys, but having many girl friends. Sometimes a female friend will over to dress him up, or offer some other feminine experience. In some cases, there is just the sudden awareness - an observation made by a well-meaning friend.

This is one of the reasons for the WPATH guidelines, and the Real Life Test. The purpose of the Real Life Experience is to help those who may be cross-dressing cis-gender males realize that they should remain male, and help those who are transsexual become more comfortable as full time females.

ReineD

05-11-2015, 12:18 AM

The second part, again just for myself, this feeling was never something constant, and there were many many occasions where I didnt even think of it. I always felt comfortable being male and I still do. Every now and then, I enjoyed the feeling of expressing the more traditional female role and be allowed to pretty up. I also really enjoyed the challenge of seeing how perfect I could make the illusion!

There have been threads in the CD section debating the different types of CDs and differentiating between fetish and non-fetish. A theme, or a question that I've seen expressed many times is, when it stops being sexual does it mean the individual is "becoming" TS. I suppose people who ask this question ultimately define the CDing as fetish, and anything else as Gender Dysphoria. We see a lot of posts from people thinking of themselves as "more than CD" but "not quite TS", I presume when they experience strong urges to go out dressed and it is not sexual. There are also people who just throw their hands up at any attempt to sort it out and simply call themselves "TG".

On the other hand, there are CDers who are quite happy with the "CD" label. They know they are men, they know that it isn't sexual for them, and they don't worry about it. They just enjoy dressing up and going out.

To the TSs reading this, you can just skip this next part since you know this stuff already:

So I think it's a good idea to point out that in order for it to be Gender Dysphoria, being a male has to cause "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning." In other words, being a male has to create serious problems in someone's life.

I've seen my own SO and others here go through many cycles, but distress over being male was not one of them. A term that is bandied about in the CD section is "Pink Fog" and although I don't like the term, it seems to describe the euphoric feelings that some people experience with the crossdressing especially when they experience something new or when the freedom to dress is limited. This is not the same as clinical impairment over being male since it comes and goes. My SO's triggers are more in evidence twice per year, when the weather warms up and women start wearing skirts and heels again, and in the fall when all the cute sweaters and boots come out. The CDing abates considerably during the heat of the summer and again in the winter when everything gets covered up with coats. Other people in this forum are triggered by seeing ball gowns or wedding dresses for example. My SO does not dress for sexual reasons (although this was the case when he was younger), but there is something about portraying a well-dressed woman, with nice jewelry, that is extremely rewarding. This is not clinical impairment over being male. Also, my SO refuses to wear suits and ties, just as there are some outfits I would not be caught dead in (https://img1.etsystatic.com/001/1/6282758/il_570xN.358915021_7urs.jpg). These clothes simply do not reflect who we are.

Anyway, I think it worth posting the DSM 5 diagnostic criteria for Gender Dysphoria in Adolescents and Adults:

https://crashchaoscats.wordpress.com/2014/04/10/dsm-v-gender-dysphoria/

A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months’ duration, as manifested by at least two of the following (see numbered list):

B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning.

A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics).

A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics).

A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender.

A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).

A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).

A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).

PaulaQ

05-11-2015, 02:00 AM

I refuse to believe that there isn't. I am sure its not magical I am sure there is some reasonable rational way. Medical professionals must know. I sincerely doubt they just start handing out drugs and hormones to just anybody claiming to be trans. How do they determine who is eligible and who isn't? What are the criteria?

I had to smile when I read this.

The short answer to this question here in the states is that you talk to a therapist once or twice, tell 'em you want to transition, and they give you a letter "diagnosing" gender dysphoria. You give this letter to a friendly doctor(these are hard to find some places), and he prescribes hormones. The therapist doesn't care whether or not you are trans - well they do, but they have no choice but to trust you. They just need to make sure you aren't so profoundly mentally I'll that you can't give informed consent. I've met one person, so far, who was that mentally ill.

There is no scientific way to prove you need to transition currently. You can spend a lot of time with a therapist, and don't get me wrong, this is a good idea if you are unsure - but if you already know you want to transition, a bunch of gender therapy, whatever other merits it has (and it has a lot), isn't going to tell anyone whether or not you need to transition. Mostly it serves to let the therapist hold your letter hostage until you pay enough fees that she's made a good profit on you.

It's all on you.

This may sound bad, but really, the history of therapists involvement with trans people is awful. For example, in the past, you'd better be highly femme, you better be employed, and you damn sure had to like men. You also had to tell the story they wanted to hear "I always knew I was a woman, etc."

Also, some of the therapists out there aren't so great. My first gender therapist told me I was gender queer. Take a look at my profile picture, and see if you can spot what might be wrong with that diagnosis! (I tell that story to other trans people who know me. They get a big laugh out of that! I am one of the most highly gender binary aligned cisnormative trans women you'll meet.)

Again, therapy has its purpose, and I believe in it. It simply isn't a diagnostic tool for transition. There is currently no such tool. And even if there were, I wouldn't trust the medical establishment to use it properly. Their history with the trans community is awful, too, for the most part.

becky77

05-11-2015, 04:37 AM

Well when dressing at home gets mundane something needs to make it exciting again. In steps the human nature of risk taking or gambling. Going out an passing as a woman you win the game of cross-dressing or at least this match. Everytime you are ignored or better yet a male's head turn you get confirmation of you accomplishment. its the CD equivalent of catching a 25lbs trout in fishing.

Isn't that half the problem an SO faces? not knowing how far it will go.
It's an interesting take and I wonder how many would rather think of themselves as having some kind of medical/gender issue, rather than just an addiction or sexual kink.
There is an awful lot of delusion in the trans community and it's healthy to see more honest answers like this.

Dianne S

05-11-2015, 06:44 AM

Would you actually like the airlines to publicly list that probability on the website when you book your flight?

You betcha! Maybe that makes me unusual, but I think publicly posting your accident rate would be an excellent incentive for airlines to improve safety.

Thats understandable, nobody expect you to remember or have read all posts. But if you go back and read the OP message, that is what this thread is all about.

Yeah, I know, but I think the OP is overstating the case. I think very few people state what she says.

I do like this thread! It's interesting and informative. Let's keep it going in a friendly way.

Suzie Petersen

05-11-2015, 09:20 AM

PaulaQ: The short answer to this question here in the states is that you talk to a therapist once or twice, tell 'em you want to transition, and they give you a letter "diagnosing" gender dysphoria. You give this letter to a friendly doctor(these are hard to find some places), and he prescribes hormones. The therapist doesn't care whether or not you are trans - well they do, but they have no choice but to trust you.

Good description Paula, that is the core of it. As I said to someone else in a different thread, if you want to, and are just a little smart about it, you can easily fool the therapist. They have no way of running a test that goes Red for female or Blue for male. Just doesnt exist.
If one desires to have SRS and have the bits changed out, the Real Life Test (RLT), which is typically 1 to 2 years of living and functioning in society as your chosen new gender, is the gate for approval. I think some still require a short RLT before even prescribing hormones, but certainly not all.

Becky77: Isn't that half the problem an SO faces? not knowing how far it will go.

Yes I think that is one of the really big problems for many. The SO might accept some level of dressing, like lingerie or whatever, and the CD'er tells the SO that will be enough. But then it develops and becomes more and more and more. Give the devil a little finger and he will take the whole arm kinda thing. Now the SO realizes the CD'er cannot be trusted with this freedom and might shut it down again. Seems many end up in a DADT after that.
The real problem is that some CD'ers dont themselves understand the dynamics and how addictive it can become. Some certainly lie about it, just to get permission and then move forward as planned, but I think many dont even realize that the need or desire will grow.

Then when the SO comes to a forum like this and ask for help with the CD hubby out of control, and get to read some threads which give her the perception that it is likely/highly likely/somewhat likely that he will eventually transition, then she can easily shut down completely. It is of course part of the story that some do and that is important too, we just need to make an effort to keep it in balance such that those who genuinely seek help here get the help they need to figure this out in their own relationship.

Diane S: You betcha! Maybe that makes me unusual, but I think publicly posting your accident rate would be an excellent incentive for airlines to improve safety.

I agree with disclosure so you can know the risk, but I dont want it to be one of the most important parts of the travel experience. "Thank you for flying White Knuckles Airlines, you chance of surviving the flight is x%! How many pieces of check-in luggage today?".
And that, I believe, is the point regarding the potential for CD'ers eventually transitioning. When a concerned wife ask what we collectively think is going on with her hubby who seems to be out of control, we just need to be a little sensitive to what it is she needs at that moment, to be able to handle the situation. We need to be careful that we support and not frighten and that we offer help and information in the right doses at the right time.
Maybe the hubby is in fact TS and they need help dealing with that, but there is a good possibility that he is just a little lost and that the two of them can find a healthy balance in their relationship.
It does not help them at that moment to learn that x% transition, they cannot really use that for anything, but it can cause a complete blocking of communication for them and might prevent them from working through it together.

Yeah, I know, but I think the OP is overstating the case. I think very few people state what she says.

And that might be true, it might not be a huge issue. However, the OP felt there was a problem and several people have chimed in and supported that. Over the years, not just on this forum, I have at times felt the same to a degree and I feel it is worth talking about.
We cant really judge how big any issue is for anyone, we cannot quantify it and dismiss it if doesnt score high enough on the concern scale. We need to talk about it and if there are things that can easily be done differently such that someones concern is eased, why shouldnt we then try! Thats all.

- Suzie

Dianne S

05-11-2015, 09:43 AM

"Thank you for flying White Knuckles Airlines, you chance of surviving the flight is x%! How many pieces of check-in luggage today?".

Maybe I have nerves of steel, but that honestly wouldn't bother me.

As I mentioned earlier, the SO of a CD who discloses may well read postings on this site, but he or she is also likely to read many other sites with far more scary and disturbing information. I also believe that most adults understand that information found on the Internet should be treated with some skepticism, so I guess I'm relatively sanguine about the potential harm caused by the odd bit of misinformation.

It does not help them at that moment to lean that x% transition, they cannot really use that for anything,

Actually, I don't agree. Let's see... the odds of a marriage failing in North America are anywhere from 30% to 50%, I'd guess. The odds of a CDer transitioning are unknown, but I'm confident most people would agree they're way below 5% and probably quite a bit lower even than 1%. As an SO, I think I'd actually be comforted knowing that something is so rare that it's extremely unlikely to affect the success or failure of the relationship.

Again, maybe that's just me... perhaps I'm a steel-nerved cold-blooded Amazon who's capable of digesting statistics dispassionately. :)

Suzie Petersen

05-11-2015, 10:02 AM

Dianne S: Actually, I don't agree. Let's see... the odds of a marriage failing in North America are anywhere from 30% to 50%, I'd guess. The odds of a CDer transitioning are unknown, but I'm confident most people would agree they're way below 5% and probably quite a bit lower even than 1%. As an SO, I think I'd actually be comforted knowing that something is so rare that it's extremely unlikely to affect the success or failure of the relationship.

Yes of course!
My mistake entirely, maybe I should have made that clear but I actually thought it was pretty obvious that the discussion here is about scary high predictions, not about comforting low risk numbers :)

I am so naive at times.

- Suzie

Kaitlyn Michele

05-11-2015, 10:42 AM

Suzie you wrote

Yes I think that is one of the really big problems for many. The SO might accept some level of dressing, like lingerie or whatever, and the CD'er tells the SO that will be enough. But then it develops and becomes more and more and more. Give the devil a little finger and he will take the whole arm kinda thing. Now the SO realizes the CD'er cannot be trusted with this freedom and might shut it down again. Seems many end up in a DADT after that.
The real problem is that some CD'ers dont themselves understand the dynamics and how addictive it can become. Some certainly lie about it, just to get permission and then move forward as planned, but I think many dont even realize that the need or desire will grow.

Then when the SO comes to a forum like this and ask for help with the CD hubby out of control, and get to read some threads which give her the perception that it is likely/highly likely/somewhat likely that he will eventually transition, then she can easily shut down completely. It is of course part of the story that some do and that is important too, we just need to make an effort to keep it in balance such that those who genuinely seek help here get the help they need to figure this out in their own relationship.

So basically because CD's get out of control and keep going further and further and the wife gets concerned and starts checking out stuff online, she might come here and read scary things (true things) said by transsexuals and it might get you in trouble?? it might make the wife more concerned..it is those specific CD"s that you have to wonder what is really going on, and that scenario she should be concerned...there are trust issues, there are communication issues, and there easily could be long term issues..

So basically concerned transsexuals that share their stories about how they experienced cd'ing and the cd community
makes it harder for the cd to get what they want, which is dress dress dress and convince the wife that its ok..

and what about all the posts about interest in men? about folks that don't tell their wives everything? should they all be "toned down" too?

The intensity of your protestations raises my eyebrows.

stefan37

05-11-2015, 12:02 PM

It really boils down to honesty and his truthful spouses and partners communicate. The large majority of those that CD have disclosure issues. We read many posts where the marriage broke up from cd'ing, and the cd'r enters a new relationship without disclosing their need to xdress. The other issue is honesty with ourselves. If we can't be honest with ourselves, how can we be honest with our partners.
In my case I refused to accept the fact I was transsexual. I told my wife a couple times I was only interested in xdressing and didn't have the cash or resolve to transition. Didn't work out so well. The inner urge to feminize my looks became uncontrollable and I felt I was on a runaway train. 3 years later on hormones, FFS, legal name change and a divorce.
For the record I told my wife of my need to wear women's clothes on our Third date. We were together 35 years and married for 31.

My experience is what it is and worth telling. If a spouse comes to the forum and reads it and freaks out, not much I can do about it.
There is another website that's name is similar and the wives there are very hostile and repulsed by their xdressing husbands. In fact if a spouse goes to it looking for support of her cd'ing husband, they are extremely hostile and run them off.

Badtranny

05-11-2015, 12:09 PM

Hey Kait, I think you're trying to nail Suzie to a cross she didn't build.

I of course understand your perspective and as always, your arguments are engaging, but Suzie isn't really arguing. It seems like she's empathizing with the OP and kind of fleshing out that perspective. She doesn't have a dog in the fight, and I think she's just intellectualizing a bit on this topic.

She isn't trying to make HER point, she's trying to make THE point.

Katey888

05-11-2015, 12:17 PM

You betcha! Maybe that makes me unusual, but I think publicly posting your accident rate would be an excellent incentive for airlines to improve safety.

Dianne - couple of issues with the discussion of stats that I can see here:

1) Raw stats can be misleading for folk that don't understand them or know how they can be interpreted - your air accident example is a good metaphor for transitioning: it either happens or it doesn't - it's a binary outcome - we will, or (most of us ;)) won't. But there are at least two issues with stats viewed in this way: the first is the known accuracy of the history - with airlines, the data is public and you can get it and it's fairly accurate; with CD/TG/TS scenarios, data is at best only available and published when research is carried out, and is fraught with uncertainty. The only accurate stats (I would surmise) are those captured by medical institutions or practitioners for things like HRT prescriptions or SRS surgical procedures for trans* patients, and government stats related to documented gender changes (where these are allowed) - but with all of these we can only see some of those transitioning, it will not capture those who decide to live 24/7 without medical intervention and - more importantly - we have no idea of the base population (CD+TG+GQ+TS or however you define it) so these are guesstimates at best.

2) The second issue is using historical data to predict the future - where random outcomes amongst a population are concerned you can only use data to project likely overall outcomes for a general population most definitively NOT for individual events... So even if it were known historically that (say) 1 in 100 crossdressers with gender issues ultimately transition to 24/7 living, HRT or SRS, that doesn't help any SO know the outcome of their specific relationship. The best you could say is that it's likely that from a random cross-section of 100 crossdressers, one will transition over time... I’m not sure that would be useful or scary – and don’t get me wrong: I like stats :) I just would question the value and veracity of any that come out of our forum discussions.

Now for my free consultation… I feel like I might be adding to someones doctoral thesis here - but all good... ;) Reine:

You have a relentless urge to dress, and it is no longer or rarely sexual. I'd say this describes a lot if not most of the CD members who go out in public regularly, including my SO (except my SO's urges have abated in recent years, compared to the years before). Are you saying that because it is no longer sexual, you are beginning to wonder, or you wonder sometimes, if the possibility of being TS might be in the cards for you in the future? (I'm doing my best to try to understand).
Not one bit at all. The closest I have ever come to wondering about this aspect was fantasising about switching between genders as a teenager, but that was pure fantasy. My history of CDing has been entirely without wondering or worrying about transition. To keep this in context my only attempts at full transformation have been in the past two years although I have always had a healthy interest in fashions since those teenage days. :)

So your relentless urge to dress ... is this all the time or are there times when you go about your male life not thinking about it (when you do things with your wife, or see relatives, or do things with friends, or work, etc).
For me it’s not all the time – but I think there’s an important distinction between feeling it all the time(knowing about it); actively thinking about it; and the urge to act on those thoughts. I think there has rarely been a day go by in the past 40 years when I have not known that I was somehow different and recognised that urge to either just crossdress (wear the clothing) or express somehow more feminine. That is different to more actively thinking or planning (buying something or what to wear next time… :)) and then acting on the need. Last year and the year before I was dressing about twice a month for a few hours; this year has been much less so far.

Does having an urge to dress mean that you want to change your body and go full time.
No. An urge for me is sated partly by the planning and consideration of how to look and then a few hours getting that done. And maybe a few photos...

Do you see yourself as having the same dysphoria about your body that TSs have and is this the source of your conflict. Or, is it rather a question of wondering why you have such strong urges to dress.
The latter. Against the present formal definition of GD or GID, I don’t have it. But I think like others, I have a problem with the present binary approach to that condition and that was part of the reason I first joined here. Here is a forum that captures so many stories and experiences that fall outside of the GD binary, but also (to my interpretation) fall outside of the broad fetish-CDer analogue. I’d admit that the forum (Bless her and all who sail in her!) has inspired and facilitated my full transformations, but that process was underway before finding this place, to the extent that I had been out partly dressed, partly made up and was considering how to get out completely. Trying to analyse why I felt the need for that has brought me to a point that feels I suffer some degree of gender dysphoria, but not to such an extent that I want to change anything – I’m content with disguising everything as best I can, but the expression of that femme part of me cannot find full satisfaction without the expression being validated by others, whether that’s amongst the community or the general population. I have been an incredibly shy person – maybe hard to believe – but there is a definite feeling that a barrier has been removed when I am presenting female. My personality doesn’t change hugely, but I know that mannerisms and posture do to be less contradictory of the mode of expression. Although I’ve noticed that is not always the case with others… In short, I believe it is possible to need an outlet for an alternate gender expression that doesn't mean complete dysphoria or the need for permanent changes.

I do think that this binary thing (again) is the big problem for me and for many of us – in some ways it must be easier to explain or accept transsexuals (for others) rather than this annoyingly confusing no-man’s land (pun intended :D) that many of us are driven to inhabit. But society likes binaries; likes clarity; seeks stability; needs easy explanations... Gender bending or flipping is just too far out there to be easy to understand!

And yes, this is a good and interesting discussion - sorry this was long again... :)

Katey x

Suzie Petersen

05-11-2015, 12:45 PM

Threads like this often get sidetracked now and then because they touch on many important issues and topics, but just to summarize what at I am trying to say here about the core of the OP:

- The intend of this thread, is to improve our ability to help people, who are married or in a steady relationship, to deal with a gender issue. It is about the first impression a spouse of a TS or CD gets when visiting here for the first few times.

Thats the skinny of it. I hope most can find common ground in that goal.

So as an example, I have personal friends where the hubby has transitioned years ago and they retained their marriage by working together on finding the new normal for them. I also have a personal friend where the marriage came to a horrible end, with big emotional and financial problems for both parties. On the latter, I only know the TS woman, not the ex-wife so I have only heard one side of the story.

People have an amazing ability to adapt to a new normal, but it will often take substantial time if it is a major change. Some deal with it better than others and some can go into a complete lock-down, unable and unwilling to deal with it. That can happen if the apparent change is too overwhelming and if the positive aspects dont get a chance to be considered.

Among the active forum participants right now, there are some people who are trying to figure out if they are TS and not CD. They are struggling badly with unaccepting wifes who do not even want to talk about the situation. There is little or no communication.
I think that type of lock-down can happen if the person is shocked by the prospect of the change and does not have sufficient time to process it. Something happens early on that makes them block all communication and the chance of recovery for the relationship is severely hurt.
This can be caused by the TS/CD's lack of ability to communicate or to generally handle the situation, or it might be caused by external factors like friends and family painting a dark picture for the SO.

If the wife comes here and read the mix of personal accounts of TS transitioning, CD's fooling around in their underwear and all the other variants, they will get a varied picture of the entire community. For many that will certainly be an eye opener and can be a shock I'm sure. But, they will see the mix of stories and can base their opinion on that.

If they come here and read statements like:

Over the last two years here, I've watched many "I'm just a CD" begin their transition.

So roughly 5-10% of CDs go into some type of transition, and 1.5%-3% ultimately get one or more gender surgeries.

Transition is just sort of the worst case scenario, and it's not on a super-low order of probability. It can happen - 1 time in 10 or 20.

The difference between a CD and a TS is 2 years!

they might get so overwhelmed that all communication stops and it becomes impossible to find a path through it all while staying together.

I just picked a few quotes from other posts without trying real hard to find more. I should also say that I ripped them out of long statements, some of which certainly explains that this is far from always the case. The concern however, is that an upset and irrational person might only remember the stand alone statements as listed in the quotes.

If these statements were based on actual facts, that would be one thing, but often they are just words picked to illustrate a point and nobody knows if they are even close to reality. We simply do not have scientific background for making such statements.
But for the nervous wife of a TS who is looking for help, or for the equally nervous wife of a CD doing the same, such statements might completely hinder the ability for her to slowly accept a new normal. She goes in lock-down and cannot deal with it. Game over, no amount of counseling can now reach her because she is not even willing to go.

So No, nobody should lie about anything and nobody should suppress their story. But we should all think about the potential damage we might cause with casual remarks, jokes, numbers or quantities which are not factual. If we can help just one relationship to survive a gender struggle, by thinking twice before making such statements, it will be well worth it.

- Suzie

Taylor Ray

05-11-2015, 12:49 PM

Wow. So much analysis. Not to undermine the genuine concerns of the wonderful participants in this forum, but......

I find it to be a real "red flag" when people concoct elaborate psychological/intellectual schemes to "rationalize" or "validate" certain ways of life.

Especially when they quote the DSM!

Please. More Zen less intellectualizing!

Dianne S

05-11-2015, 12:53 PM

Raw stats can be misleading for folk that don't understand them

Yes, which is almost everyone. I also advocate for mathematical literacy and a good understanding of risks and probabilities.

where random outcomes amongst a population are concerned you can only use data to project likely overall outcomes for a general population most definitively NOT for individual events...

Hey, yes, we are in total agreement! I said above that I would never say "I think so-and-so is TS" or whatever. At the same time, I do not advocate hiding truthful information from anyone in order to protect their feelings and the fact is that some CDers who initially have no idea they're TS eventually transition and no amount of sugar-coating can negate this fact.

CDing places extreme stress on a relationship. Over and over again, people on this forum have stressed the need for an honest and open discussion. Well then, let's be honest.

If we can help just one relationship to survive a gender struggle, by thinking twice before making such statements, it will be well worth it.

Again, this probably comes across as cold and hard-hearted, but... while relationships are important, they are not sacrosanct. One's own health takes precedence.

If a relationship ends because of a flippant remark by a stranger on an Internet forum, one has to wonder what chance that relationship really had.

Lorileah

05-11-2015, 12:54 PM

Life has risks. It always will. When we get transporter beams there will be the risk your molecules would be scattered all over the galaxy. Publishing an airlines risk (already done if you take time you can find who has the highest accident rate) won't force safety. You drive daily, what's that risk?

OK, back to the thread.

The actual odds a CD will morph into a TS will never be known because errors in samples. Consider 98% of CDs never come on this forum (OK you know it's more but my math skills require simplicity). So the 2% who do have 75% who never ever get outside the house or only wear stealth. That leaves 5% of the actual CD population (and we are assuming here that only those who see themselves as CDs and GQ or DQ or TS are in the sample). Now out of the 5% who do go out and do interact and are seen in public, let's just for fun say 10% of those are really TS who are questioning. that would be .0098 of the standard people who are CD (in some form) become TS. In a safety analogy, that seem fairly safe, doesn't it? But again the issue is getting a real sample. This isn't something that has a physical marker so people can (and do ) lie about it.

(note all that looks good to most people, but the math and statistics are all false...so a MtF telling his SO there is a .0098 chance he might be TS, and he can use this as his reference even though it hasn't been vetted may make the SO feel better.)

There are too many variables that muddy the lines. Easiest to just have trust with your SO from the start and don't hide or lie about this. But emotions rule there. You fear you have found the ideal (on both sides) you fear yo may lose your ideal if you tell them. So we will never get an accurate answer. This is also common for TSs. We keep the truth inside, hoping we can survive our lives and get through fitting images. So there is another factor that will skew any attempt to get statistics that are meaningful.

There is only ONE thing that helps maintain the standard: honesty. With yourself to start. With your SO. No one else really matters (Kids maybe but you do a lot to teach and protect them, they can be molded and shaped).

I feel like maybe I am in a 12 step group. Hi I am Lori and I am TS. I lied to many people for 55 years. I still lie on some occasions but it is harder now for me to do that since I have taken the oath. I have known I was TS for a long time. Did I progress? Yes I did. Not everyone who uses clothes will get to that point. I did, but it wasn't without my knowledge and my enabling myself. There is no one here who knows where you are in this world...except you. You have that power. No one can make you do anything you don't somehow want to do. Thus, if you don't want (or need) transition, you won't transition. (except in those porn stories all over the internet about the poor man who was captured and forced against his will to become female and then make millions modeling and no one ever knows...yes I used to read those too). But if you question where you are at all, in my opinion, you should rectify it with yourself first and then involve the one person who depends on your honesty and faithfulness. Openness and trust are basic bedrocks to a relationship.

When the question is called, having someone who trusts you and vice versa, can make it easier. We keep inferring that this is a spectrum, and it is mostly, but that also allows people to slide up and down the made up scale. So nothing is in concrete. Never say never and always avoid always. I knew. The women in my life who counted, knew. I made my line in the sand. I progressed because I wanted to progress and now not having to protect or shield said women (My words not theirs), I progressed. I have at least 4 real good TG friends who are 70-85 years old who never planned nor wanted to move to the TS edge. I think that says a lot. No one told them they "Had" to. They are happy (as far as I know) where they are. I also know many Drag Queens who will never go beyond being a Drag Queen. Interesting that if we make an assumption (hypothesis) that people progress, very few DQs become anything else. Is that a higher hurdle?

So the whole progression theory is false. You can quote that to your SO if you wish. Use this analogy: 90 people drive cars. 10 of those people drive cars very fast, 1 becomes a racedriver on local tracks. On rare occasions that race driver becomes a professional. (OK TSs are professionals...sort of not really kind of) :)

Bobbi46

05-11-2015, 12:58 PM

why cannot people accept fully what and why we are, there all sorts of reasons for why we are the way we are, I think people should be more tollerant, especiall if tells a friend that they now cd and that friend is no longer, people like that should be more understanding in their outlook and accept that underneath there are very valid reasons for what we do.

stefan37

05-11-2015, 01:06 PM

Some will underdress, some will dress in the house, others will go outside, some will dress and go out and mingle, some will go farther and live in the middle. And a small percentage will transition. The bottom line is it is up the the cd'r to communicate and encourage discussion. If the spouse is not interested and absolutely loathes the idea their husband crossedresses, then I feel for the cross dresser as they then have to go into hiding. It amazes me the number of cross dressers that don't disclose to their future mates until long into the relationship and wonder why their spouse is upset when they do disclose.

The only way to get at what the op is suggesting is to stifle all debate about others experience and just respond with. You go girl.

The difficulty is many are farther along the Tg spectrum continuum whether they know it or can even accept it. Transition is unpredictable because GD is unpredictable. There is no telling who will transition or who will not.

I thought of myself as strictly a cross dresser and through the years there would be periods of no dressing and no desire to dress. Grow a beard be all manly and all.
But the past couple years the GD came at me like a tsunami.

I would say that the potential to transition exists in all those that xdress.
Given the freedom to dress at will. I would venture that most would push their limits to their comfort zone and go no further. Others unfortunately will need to transition.

Kaitlyn Michele

05-11-2015, 01:46 PM

Too bad you are all just making it worse..you made nothing into a big deal!

like i said in my first post here...its a strawman
...its a made up problem so somebody can complain about ts people posting uncomfortable things...

all that came of it was some interesting debate and lots more focus on it....there was general agreement that if there is an "offending" post people that care will hopefully notice it and call it out...perhaps setting off another threadstorm ..who knows..

and there are no good stats on this stuff, its just made up baloney..they serve no purpose but people seem to cling to them..
we should all call those posts out if we see them..

...but whats also baloney is this whole idea that a couple scary ts posts are destroying marraiges and shutting down communications...

If this forum makes a wife freak out, its not because there are 4 or 5 messages buried in thousands and thousands....

There are lots more types of posts that wives i'm sure could get upset about...especially the ones about liking attention from men when dressed, and the large cohort that supports DADT and other types of lying.
imagine a wife reading the posts of "straight cd's" that enjoyed flirting or being flirted with by a guy as part of their outing...

This forum is run for everybody, not just the wives of cd's. In fact, i'd argue that wives of cd's SHOULD know this stuff... they should know Stepan's story, mine and others... are we 2 in a million a thousand or a hundred..

sometimes_miss

05-11-2015, 01:58 PM

First, I think this sums it up perfectly:

There is a tendency for people on this forum to try to clearly differentiate between a CD who'll never transition and a TS who CDed before transition. That's easy enough to do, after the fact of the TS starting transition. Before the fact, it's virtually impossible to differentiate the two - at least up to the point the gender dysphoria of the TS person approaches sort of a terrible climax.
And that's it in a nutshell. During the process, there's NO WAY TO KNOW. None. Even to the person going through it. So for a GG mate to come here looking to figure out whether or not her male SO is 'just a crossdresser' or 'really TS', she's wasting her time. There's no way to know.

It has recently occurred to me that transitioning or not, all crossdressers are indeed transgender. To say I'm just a guy that likes wearing women's clothes is self-delusional. I think crossdressing is much more than that. .
See, just because it's that case for you, doesn't mean its that way for everyone else. This is the biggest, most common mistake made on this forum.

There have been threads in the CD section debating the different types of CDs and differentiating between fetish and non-fetish. A theme, or a question that I've seen expressed many times is, when it stops being sexual does it mean the individual is "becoming" TS.
No it does not. I'm surprised that's even questioned. But it does reflect the general lack of knowledge on the part of most who are here on this forum. What we have here, is lots of people with personal experience, but virtually no idea of why they do it, or any scientific knowledge about it. Sort of like people who go fishing.

We see a lot of posts from people thinking of themselves as "more than CD" but "not quite TS",
Few have any real idea of why they feel the way they do, in ANY situation. So it's no surprise they can't tell you exactly where they are on the TG spectrum. How many here took college level basic psychology, child psych, abnormal psych? I'm guessing less than 1%. How many have professional psych experience of any kind? Again, less than 1%. (disclaimer: I'm a retired RN who spent nearly all my life working in E.R.s, including crisis intervention. Yet the total number of patients who have presented with sexual identity related problems including TS/TG/CD/homosexuality I've seen in my life number only about 30 that I can remember, and that's in >40 years).

So I think it's a good idea to point out that in order for it to be Gender Dysphoria, being a male has to cause "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning." In other words, being a male has to create serious problems in someone's life.
See, it's not that at all. There are lots of us out here with gender dysphoria that are able to function quite well much of the time. Exactly how 'serious' the problem is can easily depend on what ELSE is going on in our lives. For example, if every waking moment you're dodging machine gun fire in Kosovo, worrying about where you left your panties isn't high on the priority scale. Or if you just spent a week dressed up, perhaps you've sated your need to do so for a few days (or longer) and fulfilling your need to express or feel female is on the back burner for a while.

And I disagree with your definition of the term 'pink fog', though it may be that everyone needs to define it for themselves. To me it means being in a state of mind where you start to believe crossdressing is normal behavior, and so start to behave as if it is to the rest of the world as well.

Regarding your reference to the DSM-V, and it's definitions, please note the highlighted italicised word(s):

Transgender refers to the broad spectrum of individuals who tran*siently or persistently identify with a gender different from their natal gender. Transsexual denotes an individual who seeks, or has undergone, a social transition from male to female or female to male, which in many, but not all, cases also involves a somatic transition by cross-sex hormone treatment and genital surgery (sex reassignment surgery). Gender dysphoria refers to the distress that may accompany the incongruence between one’s experienced or expressed gender and one’s assigned gender.
Remember too, that this is a continually changing document. With every new revision, what defines us to the professional mental health practicioners, changes.

Isn't that half the problem an SO faces? not knowing how far it will go.
Part of the problem is that NO ONE knows how far it will go. We may change as we get older, that's a simple fact of life; just like a guy might like playing golf once a month when he's 20, and at 70 want to play every day, or may quit altogether at 30. Or there are some who like S&M yet grow tired of it after a few years and never do it again. We don't get to decide what we want to do, or what we are. We may change and become TS. We may not. There's no way to know, yet that is exactly what the women in our live insist on knowing in advance. Yet women reserve the right to change their minds, and change what they get to do in their lives. All while insisting that the man in their lives remain exactly who he is, forever.
And again, why we don't tell women up front that we crossdress.
1. Because it's basically a death sentence nearly all the time. It's a turn off for almost all women, perhaps 99%, and we have no way to find that other 1%. We need love too, and being up front with something like this means we will be alone, virtually forever (unless we're gay, which encompasses only about 20% of CD'ers). No one deserves this. No one. Plenty of women have problems of their own which no man would want to deal with, but they feel perfectly entitled to keep their mouth shut about them. I don't see this as being any different.
2. We often think we can 'beat it'. Lots of us purge, and think we're done. Often we can suppress the urge to crossdress, sometimes for years or decades. We don't tell you because it's something we've 'beaten', and so we think it's not important to tell you, any more than the fact that we used to have wet dreams and have 'beaten' that too. People don't tell their mates everything. They leave out things they deem unimportant, or things that might upset them. For example, I didn't tell my wife I was a crossdresser, because I hadn't done it in years. I thought I had 'beaten' it or maybe just grew out of it. My wife didn't tell me that she was OCD, was a raging lunatic when in PMS, had a tendency to leave sharp objects all over the house on the floor and furniture, or putting stuff away to her meant just putting them somewhere where you couldn't see it, so the next time you needed it, there was no way to find it. Get what i mean? What's important for me to know, was up to her to decide. And vice versa. The problem we come up with here, is that the GG's seem to feel that they have a right to know everything, while also deciding what their own SO needs to know. We don't tell our intended spouse every single event in our lives. It would be impossible. We tell what we think they should know. And that applies to both men, and women, as I mentioned above. At what point it becomes deception, can only be determined by the person who wasn't told something. If it's not a big deal to me, but it is to you, exactly who gets to say it was deceptive by not being out in the open about it? Is it deceptive to not tell my wife that I once stole a bag of potatoe chips when I was 10? After all, that might mean that I could become a jewel theif. How about if she has difficulty saying no when people ask her to borrow money for such things as coffee at work? Does she need to tell me that?
What you tell, depends on how important you feel it is that they know. And that is up to each individual. You don't get to tell me what I should feel is important, and I don't get to tell you the reverse. We each must decide on our own. And if I felt that I'm done with crossdressing forever, much as the same way that I might have felt I'd never want to play billiards again, I see no reason why you'd think I'd bring it up in any conversation.

Dana44

05-11-2015, 02:03 PM

It hard to put it in numbers. The T in LBGT is .003 percent of the population by the numbers I saw. Now, one in ten people are in the LBGT spectrum. Crossdresser's are another bread altogether. Yeah some will go TS. Yet I would say when a CD tells his wife he is not gay or will never transition. It is most likely 99.999 percent true. Yeah that .001 might go all the way, we are all different. My hormones are female. My testosterone is pretty normal. I will never transition. I'm a CD person. I like women. I like my male side and do like expressing my feminine side. I do like the plumbing I have and would never ever change it. I was born with it. It was hard having a feminine side since birth. However, it has given me a perspective on this world that is quite different than a man or a woman see's. It is a gift. I would not ever change that gift. I appreciate the fact that I am different.

Suzie Petersen

05-11-2015, 02:18 PM

ReineD

05-11-2015, 02:38 PM

Isn't that half the problem an SO faces? not knowing how far it will go.
It's an interesting take and I wonder how many would rather think of themselves as having some kind of medical/gender issue, rather than just an addiction or sexual kink.
There is an awful lot of delusion in the trans community and it's healthy to see more honest answers like this.

I agree, this condition is self-disclosed and SO's can't tell if their husbands are TS any more than a lot of professionals do (the ones who produce letters or prescribe HRT quickly), although I should hope there are some professionals who delve into this deeply enough to help prevent a non-TS from feminizing his body and/or burning some bridges and regretting it later when he discovers that being a woman wasn't what he thought it would be or what he wanted. The idea that self-certainty is proportional to the degree of GD, I believe is false, since urges to CD can be just as powerful as the need for a TS to transition ... except, urges to CD follow cycles (sometimes lasting years) while transsexualism does not.

But to your point, IMO it doesn't matter whether the CDing origin is sexual. The fact remains that all the feel-good chemicals inundating the brain over time, even when it began in childhood (imprinting does happen in childhood), no matter what the triggers are or were, effectively rewire a person and make it all a part of who they are today. This is why, I believe, it is difficult for some people (the non-TSs who just want breasts, for example) to know whether they are TS or not. Some take what has become a need to express femininity or beauty as meaning they must then have a female gender identity, which when you think about it is a pretty rare thing ... a person who has a body completely at odds with who they feel they are (I'm not invalidating TSs, just saying how rare it is). But as with everything else, a non-TS's personality and life circumstances will determine how far he will take this. Most non-TSs for whom the expression of femininity has become part of the self do not take it as far as modifying their bodies since they know that a need to dress does not change who they are. But, some will cross that line especially if they decide to take action too soon.

Maybe the non-TSs who cross the line will not all come to regret their decisions. People do tend to find their niches, again depending on their personalities and where they live. But some do regret it ... the rare cases are those who've had SRS and shouldn't have, but more frequently it is people who feminize their bodies partially, leave their marriages, etc.

So the danger in all of this is ultimately as great or greater for the non-TS than it is for the SO, if he has convinced himself that he has the medical condition defined as Gender Dysphoria ... plus of course the difficulty for a CDer who knows he will not transition, to convince his wife of this if she reads too many posts in this forum. :p)

It all boils down to the source motive: is being a woman alluring, or has there been clinically significant distress or impairment over being male.

So it really doesn't help if TSs stoke the fire and insinuate that a non-TS "might" have GD, especially if this non-TS is looking for ways to make it all OK with a non-supportive wife. And again, since it is a time-consuming endeavor for professionals to really know whether a person is TS or not, how can anyone in this forum presume to "know" such a thing about a person they haven't even met, and the person in question hasn't even posted in the TS section that he (or she if she is TS) is contemplating transition.

PaulaQ

05-11-2015, 03:02 PM

although I should hope there are some professionals who delve into this deeply enough to help prevent a non-TS from feminizing his body and/or burning some bridges and regretting it later when he discovers that being a woman wasn't what he thought it would be or what he wanted.

Pretty much the answer is "nope, that doesn't happen anymore here in the US." The pro's can't tell either. And even if they could, the psychologists who are any good or have any modicum of shame about their profession's shameful past in dealing with the trans community have realized that all they can really do is assert that someone appears to be capable of making this decision for themselves.

All gatekeeping did was insure that only people with the right story transitioned. So what happened? Everyone told the right story...

The fact remains that all the feel-good chemicals inundating the brain over time, even when it began in childhood (imprinting does happen in childhood), no matter what the triggers are or were, effectively rewire a person and make it all a part of who they are today.

You like to suggest this mechanism a lot, but there isn't much evidence to support it. The best scientific evidence to date is that the brains of trans people undergo some hormonal abnormality in utero, and do not synchronize with the gender development of the rest of the body.

From a personal standpoint, as someone who is quite familiar with the effects of "feel good chemicals in the brain", I don't buy this either. I have a tendency towards alcoholism. I come by it honestly - it runs in my family. In fact, I've been sober now for 25 years. I have some idea about what it takes to deal with such feelings. My feelings about my gender were vastly stronger than any compulsion I had to drink. Not ten times stronger, not one hundred times stronger, but something beyond my ability to even comprehend, much less stop.

It all boils down to the source motive: is being a woman alluring, or has there been clinically significant distress or impairment over being male.

Why do you view those as two different conditions? They are not. I found being a woman alluring - because I am a woman!

The professionals that help us out are in no better position to decide who is or isn't in need of transition. Sure, some of them have pretty educated opinions and are good at figuring this out, but they never know for sure. I think therapy is helpful, but really, all a therapist, or anyone else, can do is ask questions to help the person reach their own conclusion.

Dianne S

05-11-2015, 03:11 PM

The professionals that help us out are in no better position to decide who is or isn't in need of transition.

I think this can't be emphasized enough. Nobody can tell someone else they are or are not transgender. Not a psychologist, not a doctor, not some stranger on an Internet forum. The realization has to come from within. Perhaps knowing this would help calm the reactions of SOs to rash statements by some people.

Michelle789

05-11-2015, 03:16 PM

The narrative that we all know for all of our lives simply isn't true. Many of us are miserable, and it takes us quite a long time to sort out what in the hell is going on with us. Some of us have clues - like crossdressing, or other behaviors or expressions. Some of us have a very strong idea of exactly who we are, from a very young age.

Exactly. I didn't always know, but I had a clue since I was 5. I first vocalized to my parents when I was five that I am a girl. They immediately told me that I am not a girl, and that I am a boy. Since then, I never said anything about my gender issues to my family, and went along thinking that I must be a boy. I tried to fit myself into the "male box" but it was incredibly difficult.

I didn't like rough and tumble play and was very sensitive. This could also be a consequence of scoring a big "F" on the MBTI - Feeling type personality is more common in women, but male identified people who are feeling type personalities may have some of the same difficulties, but not have GD. So am I a man who is a very sensitive feeling type, or am I a woman? 75% of women are feelers, 75% of men are thinkers. My boyfriend, who is a trans male and male identified, also scored a big "F" on his MBTI. He is very sensitive and gentle, yet all man.

I was not aggressive and didn't know how to approach women. This could be a consequence of being an introvert. Sure, a lot of introverted men might be shy around women.

I wanted to grow up to be a woman when I was only 8. Hmmm.....just a fantasy, maybe, or sign that I might be dysphoric?

I wanted to wear women's clothes when I was a kid, but I knew I could never approach my parents. And I didn't know how to sneak things at that age. Wants are not the same as needs, right?

At age 13, I started sneaking my mom's clothes when no one was home. Could this just be the beginning of a fetish?

At age 13, I started freaking out over the changes occurring in my body. I hated my body hair and facial hair in particular, and somehow felt like my body was the most repulsive thing in the entire world. Could I just be experiencing body dysmorphia as opposed to gender dysphoria? My boyfriend LOVES the effects of testosterone. He loves his body and facial hair.

At age 13, I started having intense feelings that I am a girl. These feelings would persist until I started on estrogen. Delusion or gender dysphoria, you be the judge. My boyfriend had a constant voice telling him that he is a boy, which only went away after he started testosterone.

At age 13, when I saw an attractive girl, I wanted to be her, not have sex with her. Twisted sexual fantasy, or gender dysphoria? My boyfriend LOVES sex like any other guy.

At age 15, my mom pointed out that my mannerisms were very feminine and thought I was gay. Am I a gay man, or am I a woman trapped in a man's body?

At age 22, I got my own apartment and finally, my own stash of women's clothes. Am I a CDer or a TS, not really sure, eh?

At age 22, I read about transsexualism and crossdressing on the internet. I felt like transition was where I needed to go, but I still couldn't even fathom doing it. I had no job experience, and I was very afraid of what my family might think. And believe when I finally came out to my father six months ago, he did not take it well. Just a fleeting thought, or maybe I'm a TS.

When I masturbated, I would usually fantasize about having sex as a woman with a man. Just a fetish, or maybe I'm a TS? My boyfriend's only fantasy is having sex with me, with him as the man.

I CDed persistently for the next 11-12 years. I CDed about 4 days a week. I would find time after school, work, weekends, to CD. I got really depressed and anxious when I couldn't. I mean, I must be a CDer because CDers experience this too.

I am a computer programmer. A stereotypical male profession and a stereotypical "thinking" profession, in fact most common among NT even more so than ST. I am one of the few ISFJ computer programmers out there. I am actually very analytical and I think A LOT, but my preference is F over T. Am I just a completely delusional, confused, in the wrong profession, or TS?

People used to tease me that I was gay, sissy, or a girl. This was persistent from childhood until just before I started my transition. Were those guys just being sarcastic? Was I simply one of the "lesser guys"? I mean, feeling type males, especially those who are introverts, probably are not the alpha male - not even close to being the alpha male. Or did they pick up something feminine about me?

I had trouble socializing. Partly because I didn't fit in with males. The males I enjoyed socializing with probably are feeling personalities. Am I just evading social responsibilities? Am I just too sensitive and prefer softer feeling types or very mature or very spiritual? Or am I a woman trapped in a man's body?

I detested when any circumstance would steal my time to CD. Whether it was working overtime, having a social obligation, or anything else that forces me to leave the house and interact with people, I would freak out at having to wait a long time to CD again. This is a common symptom of both CDers and TSes. So am I just a CDer or am I a TS?

When a psyhcic told me to "man up" and pressured me into dating and playing a male role in a relationship, I became the most depressed ever in my entire life. This would also mean no more CDing. By this point I just wanted to die and be reincarnated as a girl in my next life. Could I just be some miserable failure as a man who thinks the grass is greener on the other side, who is not appreciative of the male privileges that I supposedly had, or am I really a girl trapped inside a guy's body?

I had never been in a relationship my entire life before I started my transition. I wasn't sure if I liked men or women. I am in my first relationship ever, with a wonderful guy who is also trans. It feels very natural. Am I a closeted gay man, an asexual, or maybe I am a straight woman?

Since transitioning, I totally prefer the company of women. Pretty typical of most women. I really preferred the company of women even before I started my transition, but I had to hide that and attempted to be friends with men. Some of those friendships were actually quite good.

So really, I had clues, but I ignored them until three years ago when things started to click in my head. It took me 34 years to figure it out. The clues were always there. Some of us always knew. Some of us didn't always know but we always had clues. Some of us literally don't have a clue until we're 50. There's no right or wrong transgender narrative.

social isolation and stigma

The worst part is you can't trust anyone in the trans community to be your friend either. Passable transwomen don't want to be friends with non-passable ones out of fear of being clocked. Non passable ones don't want to be friends with passable ones because either they're jealous or think you're not trans enough. I even know of a transwoman who lost her trans friends when she decided to get SRS. If you're too good-looking, well-dressed, naturally feminine, or reinforce the binary, other transwomen might be jealous of you and not want to be your friend. Even if you don't pass well, don't dress well, or have a lot of male behavior to unlearn, or are more toward being genderqueer, you still have to content with crazy, toxic, and untrustworthy transwomen. If you're queer, many TSes don't like you. If you're too nice, you may get taken advantage of by more wolfish transwomen. There are plenty of wolves in the trans community.

Oh, and as a transwoman, you might get hit on not only by cis straight men, but by gay men, other transwomen, transmen, and even genderqueers. I have been hit on by every identity out there except for cis-women. Actually, I was sexually violated once by a cis-woman in my AA group. This same woman once violated me about five years ago when I was still pretending to be a man.

stefan37

05-11-2015, 03:23 PM

Well ... I think I will quietly leave the room through the back door now.

Lots of great comments from a lot of great people, but a lot of it unfortunately had absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread. It appears there is in fact not as much common ground when it comes to improve the chances of helping spouses of TS or CD people as I had hoped for, but maybe that will change with time. Or maybe, people were just reacting to what they expected to hear and not to what was actually said! Hmmm ... ;)

A lot of the comments have entirely missed the point, yet funny enough, many have stated the fact that supported the point!

Closing argument:

We seem to mostly agree that we dont know what the numbers are! So my suggestion is, dont just make shit up! You are scaring the children!

I yield the floor.

- Suzie

If an internet forum is going to scare the children maybe they shouldn't be here. You posted that you gave up dressing to please your wife and save your marriage. What if some spouse saw your post and drew the line in the sand for her spouse. "It's possible to give it up so why don't you". The reality is if you are a dresser, you are a dresser for life. Doesn't matter the reason or motivation. And to be denied the opportunity to relieve the distress can be just as disastrous as not transitioning. There are posts just in the past hour of members in distress because they can't express themselves to a level that would be comfortable. I have a good idea from their posts who may be TS and may in the future transition. If I were to day to that person you should transition and they go ahead and blow up their life. Am I responsible? Anybody that takes advice from an internet forum and pursues a course of action detrimental to their life without serious intrareflection is very foolish.

We have many come into the TS sub forum and declare themselves Ts. They only want to live Part time but declare themselves TS. I guess we are so cool everybody wants to be TS.

We tell them that they seek therapy and honestly assess how they feel. We get called on the carpet for being elitist. Morning could be farther from the truth. TS is a really sucky condition to have. It disrupts our lives in unimagineable ways that nonreversible. We actually try to talk posters from transitioning. "Don't transition unless you absolutely have to".

Dressers are their own worst enemy by not disclosing to their spouse before they got serious. That is the crux of the issue and I see it every single day here.

Kaitlyn Michele

05-11-2015, 04:26 PM

No reason for a snarky exit about people "not getting it" suzie..

In fact, i strongly argue you don't get it.
I want spouses to get help too.

It is in their best interest to KNOW..that is a fundamental principle..would you disagree?? should things be kept from them?? does it matter that there are 10 page threads here debating what to tell the wife with all kinds of excuses and justifications for not telling..

Its interesting Reine i read your last post and without going line by line and boring you what i read looks like a very wary (and wise) stance towards EVERY CD that has ANY desire to change their body or present as female to others..
I would hope every wife understands that there is an UNKNOWN RISK that is completely UNPREDICTABLE that may come at the most UNEXPECTED TIME where the husband figures some stuff out that lets just say may not be in the best interest of the marriage..each situation is different but confusion and stress is common

They need to know what GD is and is not...how its not predictable and not controllable, how bad it feels to the cd or ts suffering it, how it comes back with a vengeance and never really goes away, and that the "promises" being made to them are not generally going to be kept..they deserve to know...

they also deserve to know that shutting down dressing 100% risks disaster...the need is real, the feelings are bad , and sorry but my experience is cd's feeling like they must dress WILL dress...just like ts MUST transition..
nothing a cd can say will convince me they wont.....and its not going to turn them into a woman(LOL)...

its an open discussion ...people shouldn't be spouting stats they made up...people should not be saying you are this or you are that..

but i don't think anything should be kept from wives of cd's or tg's or whatsoever......
i don't think its any real help to loving partner at all to keep any information from them... especially something like this..

what you call looking out for them i call pulling the wool over their eyes

Suzie Petersen

05-11-2015, 05:25 PM

Well I guess I cant stay away anyway.
Just a few comments:

Stefan37: You posted that you gave up dressing to please your wife and save your marriage. What if some spouse saw your post and drew the line in the sand for her spouse. "It's possible to give it up so why don't you".

That is an important story to tell too! And it is important to others to read that someone chose to preserve his marriage and was able to stop. I have actually already told that story somewhere here. Can I keep suppressing it forever? I dont know, I cannot predict the future, but I am set on trying at least.
While all stories should be told, it would be very wrong if I started to through out statements such as "Many CD'ers stop dressing" or "28.6% can easily stop if they want to". I would have no right to say that when I dont know that the numbers are true. I cant just make it up to prove a point, that would be misleading, right!

Stefan37: Dressers are their own worst enemy by not disclosing to their spouse before they got serious. That is the crux of the issue and I see it every single day here.

I completely agree with you! Lets talk about that in another thread, since this one is about Misleading information regarding statistics etc.

Kaitlyn: It is in their best interest to KNOW..that is a fundamental principle..would you disagree??

Nope, dont disagree at all! In fact, I completely agree with you on that as you will see through out my posts here. All stories .. ALL stories .. should be told!
What this thread is about however, is to avoid spreading made up information! Thats all. None of us should say things like 10% of CD'ers will eventually transition when nobody knows if that is true! We can say that Some will, but we cannot quantify it when we have no real data. That would be misleading and dishonest.

Kaitlyn: its an open discussion ...people shouldn't be spouting stats they made up...people should not be saying you are this or you are that..

There! Thanks Kaitlyn. Thats what I was trying to get through. That is the point of all of this and it is the only point I was trying to make. Dont make shit up!

All the other things that have been brought up are very important and very relevant and we should continue to talk about them in their own threads. It all needs to be heard.

- Suzie

Dianne S

05-11-2015, 05:57 PM

I completely agree with you! Lets talk about that in another thread, since this one is about Misleading information regarding statistics etc.

If someone posts misleading information, you're free to post a correction... that's the beauty of a forum.

And if someone posts something you think is genuinely harmful, you can report it to the moderators. This forum is extremely well-moderated and I think the mods do an excellent job of keeping things on track and keeping flames down. I'm sure they'd remove harmful material once it was pointed out.

cheryl reeves

05-12-2015, 12:30 AM

the data on ts' who transition is wrong also,there are some who have learned to balamce out both worlds. im feminate looking but dont ever take me for a sissy,im more like a tomboy in alot of ways. i can be rough one min and sensitive the next,i love my jeans and t shirts but also love wearing a dress with all the fixings,i can cook,helped raise the kids,laundry all the things women do,but i can do guy things also. my dad knew i was different and did his best to raise me strong enough to face adversity. my family knows im tg,my wife knows im ts but dont want the bottom surgery for i love women to much to want to wear a artificial device. men do not do it for me period,i had very very few male friends,i had more girl friends,i feel strange being alone with men also. im a freak who learned to find some peace in this upside down world we live in.

ReineD

05-12-2015, 02:26 AM

I think this can't be emphasized enough. Nobody can tell someone else they are or are not transgender. Not a psychologist, not a doctor, not some stranger on an Internet forum. The realization has to come from within. Perhaps knowing this would help calm the reactions of SOs to rash statements by some people.

Yes, it's entirely self-diagnosed.

But just reading through the history of the threads in both sections here ... there are differences between TSs and CDers. I won't list them, a look at the thread titles and the posts over time, and common sense is enough for people to get an idea.

In years past, when CDers in Pink Fogs would go into the TS section to ask how many hormones they'd need in order to grow breasts without affecting their package, they were not treated as sister-TSs.

Has this changed?

Gatekeepers also used to ask how long the dysphoria had been present with the idea that if it can be traced to childhood or early years then it is not Pink Fog. Granted, maybe a lot of people learned to rewrite their memories which renders gatekeeping useless, but was this not a valid question?

I do remember reading posts from post-ops who said they always knew at some level they were not men. Is this changed as well?

Also, are the guidelines in the DSM now inaccurate, and are we to tell an entire forum of CDers that Gender Dysphoria and being in a Pink Fog are one and the same thing, so the CDs should just come on over and join the fun, the bigger the wardrobe the better?

Gosh, if we do that, then things could reverse. Instead of believing that (who knows how many) CDers are really TS, then maybe people will start to wonder if (who knows how many) TSs aren't really TS, if they cannot tell the difference between the two.

The refusal by some to believe there are two general and separate tracks here, CD and TS and that CD ---> TS is a continuum, sort of makes me wonder. If I'm to play with arrows, then continuums can go both ways: CD <----> TS. If there is no difference and it's only a matter of degree, then there are no CDs and no TSs (we can say they are all "CDTS"), or everyone is CD, or everyone is TS. lol

This thread is about giving the impression there are a great deal more CDers who will want to transition than there are in reality. And although it is true that a small percentage of older people do discover out of the blue they are really TS, this is certainly not the norm. The last half of this thread is getting back to the idea that a sudden desire to transition after living life as a male for 30 years is what ... to be expected? Not out of the ordinary? Possible or maybe even likely for a good chunk of CDers here? These statements are not quantified so it's hard to say.

You know, at a personal level none of this affects me. My SO is not TS. But, if my SO should ever decide to live as a woman, we would still be best friends. The real danger here is playing a part in persuading people in Pink Fogs (who might be at a place in their cycles where they would want to lap this up) that they are TS, which might lead them to make decisions they will regret in the long run.

I just think it's a dangerous game.

Dianne S

05-12-2015, 06:40 AM

The refusal by some to believe there are two general and separate tracks here, CD and TS and that CD ---> TS is a continuum, sort of makes me wonder.

I'm not sure if it is a continuum; I haven't made up my mind on that question yet. There's certainly a wide range of motivations for CDing all the way from purely fetishistic or erotic to "feeling calm and relaxed" which is pretty much how a lot of TS's describe presenting as their true gender.

Even if it's not a continuum, I think that being TS can sometimes (for a certain time period) manifest itself as being a CDer. This happens as the TS is working through her feelings and trying to understand them.

The reverse, someone who feels TS but later decides it's all about the clothing and not about the inner gender, is rarer I think. But that's just my impression. I don't have actual data to back it up.

I have a hard time believing a CDer will take the steps to transition even in the pinkest of fogs. The reality of transition will quickly make them realize it's serious business and no trivial matter and I suspect they'll stop before any permanent damage is done.

Kaitlyn Michele

05-12-2015, 07:06 AM

Oh my gosh Reine thank you!!!!
you said
......a look at the thread titles and the posts over time, and common sense is enough for people to get an idea.

COMMON SENSE
yes yes yes

I frankly presume that a reader has some common sense , and more importantly i know that many posters and SO's are deeply struggling..
it is not common sense to read some posts about 1 in 10 this or a supposed continuum and decide to shut down all communication or divorce or forbid dressing or whatever... that's a marraige problem, not a cd problem.

I would say that if you take the concise premise..
"There is no continuum that leads to being ts, it is not a matter of degree.
However, some small number of cd's will realize over time they are actually TS using crossdressing to cope with their transsexuality
and some other number will fight a constant need to dress and present that will cause stress
and GD is not to be trifled with... cd's and ts's both suffer from forms of it and dealing with it head on is much more constructive that not"

i think that's a pretty common sense statement
It's in the best interest of the couple to let a husband going through this understand himself (or herself is ts). And that includes evaluation of all options.

i also agree that with common sense it is not difficult to "know" another persons gender by what they post and what they say even just in this forum...and its a good question to ask whether there any circumstances at all where the peanut gallery we all are should EVER say "i think you are ts" or "you are not ts".... i dont..
if i think you are ts or notice you have bad GD, i have a code word..."therapy".
and to be fair i see that almost universally from ts women even if you find some posts over reaching... they don't advocate anything life changing, they advocate therapy and caution.

one reason that we can never really come to totally agreeable terms that ts people often deny it to themselves, and even when they "Admit" they often work hard to reign it in and never ever let anybody know"
I can see at least 4 people on this thread alone...4 is not alot...i think this is very rare, but i realize that its cold comfort and its not constructive to put a figure on it...

If my wife feared i was ts in 2003 i would have laughed confidently at the silliness of it......if she feared it in 2005 i would have denied it but in my heart would have been very sad and wondering, and by 2006 i would have bald faced lied.......by 2007 i would have broke down in tears...and in 2008 when it all came to a head, i did..it was the worst experience of my life to that point (and hers)..

and i realize that my story makes the vast majority of cd's kind of look bad, and i wish it wasn't true..but its really really rare for this happen, and that's part of why it was so hard for me and my wife...i didn't have alot of people to share the experience with.... and thats WHY i'm here... to share
the real answer is common sense and open loving communication. this forum simply has to be a tiny part of it or you are investing way too much in something that is outside of the real world
++++

ReineD

05-12-2015, 12:01 PM

I have a hard time believing a CDer will take the steps to transition even in the pinkest of fogs. The reality of transition will quickly make them realize it's serious business and no trivial matter and I suspect they'll stop before any permanent damage is done.

I agree they likely will not go for SRS (although I know people who have, see below). And depending on their inner resources, they might not even want to come out to everyone in their lives as a woman, change their names and all other gender markers legally. But, they could leave their marriages just to spend most of their time dressing at home or going out with women's clothes hidden under their male clothes, or wearing women's clothes that can be taken as male clothes. They could begin a course of feminizing hormones which will make it difficult for them to fit into the binary world, forcing them to hide their breasts while in male mode for example. I know that some TSs in transition understandably go through an awkward period of time of doing such things until they have everything in place to go full time at work and everywhere else in their lives, but I cannot imagine living like this indefinitely. Kinda like being stuck between two worlds.

Or, maybe some people simply find their niche and travel within small circles.

I know two people (one who did have SRS, I'm not sure about the other) who have detransitioned. I don't know the work situation, but the marriages were lost, damage was done to relationships with children and other people in their lives. It turned out to be a lonely life for them, and living as a woman was not what they thought it would be even with the new people they met. This is because, fundamentally I don't think they are women although they may be non-binary. If a person is a woman in a wrong body, then fundamentally it must be a relief to be congruent no matter the outcomes post-transition? If a person is non-binary, then it is difficult to live 100% either as a man or a woman, and to present as a non-binary person in our world is challenging. So a solution may be to switch back and forth?

To take it one step further, maybe Gender Dysphoria (for MtFs) means being dysphoric about being Male (100% male with a male gender-identity, living all the time as male). But, maybe there are two different directions it can go in: either full transition to a woman full time if one is a woman, or do the best one can to cope with a non-binary status if one is non-binary. This makes sense when looking at members in this forum. Maybe the people who do more than just crossdress but who never go through with full transition are statisfied with partial transition as an end point (some hormones maybe, electrolysis maybe, all while presenting as a woman in certain parts of their lives). Certainly we've had people say they just want breasts, or they are satisfied with presenting as males in parts of their lives.

So if we acknowledge there are different directions to GD (full or partial transition) I still think it is a mistake to imply that everyone who experiences GD must by default be a woman, therefore ignoring the possibility of a non-binary status.

sometimes_miss

05-12-2015, 01:32 PM

But to your point, IMO it doesn't matter whether the CDing origin is sexual. The fact remains that all the feel-good chemicals inundating the brain over time, even when it began in childhood (imprinting does happen in childhood), no matter what the triggers are or were, effectively rewire a person and make it all a part of who they are today.
That is sort of what I went through, but I don't know of more than a couple of guys who've been through the same sort of thing; but then we have

You like to suggest this mechanism a lot, but there isn't much evidence to support it.
You don't need 'much' evidence. If you come across one case, then it's happened.

The best scientific evidence to date is that the brains of trans people undergo some hormonal abnormality in utero, and do not synchronize with the gender development of the rest of the body.
The big problem with so much of what we read, is the myth of our minds being somehow 'completed' in some way when we travel through the vaginal birth canal, as if there's a leprauchan with a giant stamp in there somewhere that brands us as normal, CD, gay, TS, etc.. Our brains don't stop developing at birth, any more than any other part of us does. Or, what happens to children who are born premature? Do they forever have underdeveloped brains & personalities? Of course not.
I understand where this belief comes from; it's due to the widespread fear that some person, somewhere is responsible for influencing our sexuality and sexual identity. For that would place blame for it, on another, or on ourselves. And the stigma of that responsibility is so great that no one could ever accept that they could be responsible. But why? What's the difference if someone is responsible for that?
Because our religious leaders tell us that unless we're normal, straight, then we're terrible people. And someone must be blamed and punished for making those terrible people, whether it be the parents of those terrible people, teachers of those terrible people, or even those terrible people themselves.
WE ARE NOT TERRIBLE PEOPLE. WE KNOW THAT. WHY CAN'T WE ALL GET IT THROUGH OUR HEADS? Maybe then the rest of society will come around too. It ain't gonna happen overnight, but it will happen. WE have to start the road to believing ourselves to be just as normal as everyone else, HERE.
Until then, what we need to do is, eventually stop all the hysteria about it. It's a societal problem; all the homophobic and religious nutcases out there who feel the need to ostracise people who are different from themselves. And until that stops, we will have this problem. Unfortunately I don't see it going away any time soon, but we are making progress.
And we can, and must, start with ourselves. Over and over on this very forum, every single time I log on and read some threads, I see men write things, desperately trying to distance themselves from their feminine feelings. All this 'feminine side of me', and talking about themselves in the third person as if it's someone else, it's all a fear of being labeled girly or a pu$$y. We have to stop it here, amongst ourselves is a good start.
WE DO. BECAUSE IF WE DON'T, NEITHER WILL ANYONE ELSE.
And women too are to blame. Every single woman who fears that her crossdressing mate might 'no longer be the man she married' MUST face that he IS and always was what he is now, and stop focusing on the fears that he may not be the stable rock of gibralter personality that she needs him to be because she's so insecure in her own right. Because after all, very, very few of us ever transition. For about 99.9% of us, we didn't suddenly change into a girly guy. We've been this way since before we met you, and have lived up to our responsibilities to you and the rest of society so far, so nothing in our lives has changed, only your fears have changed how YOU feel. You women have to get over your fears, we can't do that for you. Your daddy complexes of needing to feel protected have to change, you have to grow up. We live in a world where women keep trying to tell us how they are strong, independent, equal to any man. Well it's time to step up or shut up.
Rant for today over. I'm going out for lunch. Retirement is good.

Katey888

05-12-2015, 02:42 PM

...and i realize that my story makes the vast majority of cd's kind of look bad, and i wish it wasn't true..but its really really rare for this happen, and that's part of why it was so hard for me and my wife...i didn't have alot of people to share the experience with.... and thats WHY i'm here... to share

Kaitlyn - please don't think that for a minute... :hugs: there really isn't anything that anyone TS can do to make CDers look 'bad' - I've read your open and disarmingly honest posts and perspectives here and have seen a new aspect to the community that we share - perhaps as strange bedfellows in a way (if you'll pardon the expression) because I can understand all of the confusion and scariness from an SO perspective (and we mustn't think this exclusively GGs as there are likely some GM SOs who would be just as perturbed...) and I think I can also understand a little of why the TS part of our community may not comprehend the things that CDers do as male-identifying, gender-challenged, but often fun-seeking males... I get that because I don't fully comprehend it myself as to how we can possibly be a mixture and do this flip-flopping between with apparently flexible personas: all-man one moment, effeminate and girly the next... It seems unlikely but all I could ask anyone to do is trust us that it is truly what some folk here feel to such a degree that the expression must find an outlet. :)

And common sense: Yes - I feel more like Eryn could have been right about the baiting a little (we'll see if the OP member ever returns... :angry: posting this and disappearing for a whole week...) but it has brought to light so much new perspective for me that it's worth it! We are just an opinion based forum - perhaps somewhat better experienced than others - but frankly there is so much out there that I would think worse than the simply frank and truly supportive discussions we have here.

And I think most of us are in violent agreement about the posts that ARE dogmatic and cite unreferenced or fatuous stats... at least 97% of us are... :D

Katey x

becky77

05-12-2015, 03:24 PM

I'm 90% sure that 18% of us are 110% making up stats.

Suzie Petersen

05-12-2015, 05:24 PM

On average .. right! ;)

Eryn

05-12-2015, 08:39 PM

...Gatekeepers also used to ask how long the dysphoria had been present with the idea that if it can be traced to childhood or early years then it is not Pink Fog. Granted, maybe a lot of people learned to rewrite their memories which renders gatekeeping useless, but was this not a valid question?

It is a rare male child who hasn't experimented with Mom's high heels at a young age.

This occurrence has little to do with being TG, any child views heels as amusement park rides you can wear on your feet!

Yet a "professional" could point to such an occurrence and say "See, you've been TG all along!"

The same could be said of any exploration of a mother's or sister's closet.

flatlander_48

05-12-2015, 08:54 PM

On average .. right! ;)

Yes, but what's the Over/Under?

emma5410

05-13-2015, 12:22 AM

It is a rare male child who hasn't experimented with Mom's high heels at a young age.

This occurrence has little to do with being TG, any child views heels as amusement park rides you can wear on your feet!

Yet a "professional" could point to such an occurrence and say "See, you've been TG all along!"

The same could be said of any exploration of a mother's or sister's closet.

So everyone does it and you know it has little to do with being TG but a professional, who presumably has a lot of experience and knowledge, and also did it themselves, would be completely fooled?

Michelle789

05-13-2015, 12:31 AM

Trans people face terrible discrimination, and some of us have incredibly difficult lives post transition. We get all the problems women get, compounded by being trans, and any other issues we might have - race, economic status, etc.

In addition to problems caused by being trans, race, economic status, it is very difficult when you lived with male privilege for 30, 40, 50+ years, and you now lose it. The loss of male privilege that you are used to and now have to give it up can be big enough in itself. You might be comfortable in your own skin, but were ingrained with the privileges that men get. Add to that people who lose careers and now have to learn to live on less money, perhaps take a survival job. Most survival jobs include:

1. Work hours that change from day to day and week to week, as opposed to your likely 9 to 5 plus overtime position you used to have.

2. Possibly no schedule at all, they just call you at the last minute and say "be at work in an hour" and you have no choice.

3. Likely you will not be able to afford a car and have to start using public transportation.

4. Sleep deprivation as part of the job. While your career job may have given you enough time between shifts to get adequate sleep, your survival job may require you to finish work at 3am and then be at work at 11 am. And there are no buses at night so you spend two hours walking home and get home at 5am. Sleep for 4 hours. Eat breakfast, shower, and dress in an hour, or likely longer since it takes longer to get ready as a woman, especially if you still have to remove obstacles caused by a male body. Allow an hour on the bus. Seriously, this happens to my boyfriend, who works a survival job for different reasons. He didn't lose his career, rather he had just been working in survival jobs his entire life.

5. Wear a uniform to your job. Oh yeah, for those of you who like to dress nicely or wear a dress or skirt, sorry you'll have to wear pants, and the colors your job tells you to wear. Bummer.

6. Difficult to socialize with friends who have 9 to 5 jobs since you're likely working when they're off from work.

7. If you thought your boss was a dick in your 9 to 5 job, wait until you work at McDonalds.

8. You can forget holidays, because you're working every single one of them.

9. If you worked at your survival job for 5 years, and worked your way up to $15/hr, and lose your job. Guess what, it's back to minimum wage.

10. You might actually find the work to be meaningless.

11. Be ready to deal with ordinary folks as customers who take their shit out on you.

12. Even your cis-male co-workers will want to commit suicide because they hate their job so badly.

13. It will be difficult to regularly attend church or the same 12-step meetings, since you might be working on Sunday mornings or on Wednesday night during your former AA meeting. Sometimes you might get the day or part of the day off and be able to attend it. Sometimes you won't.

14. Being trans, your odds of being assaulted, raped, or murdered in the restrooms at a supermarket, retail outlet, or fast food chain, drastically increase from using the restrooms in your nice office you used to work at.

I know this because my boyfriend works a survival job, and I learned that everything I took for granted working in tech are privileges I earned for being male, college educated, white, from the right family, that other people don't have.

Of course, if your college degree earned profession requires you to work odd hours, like being a nurse or police officer, than it might suck but at least you chose your career. And most nurses and police officers can afford cars. And nurses and police officers are respected more than people working survival jobs. Although any of these things can happen even if you work a career job, your odds increase drastically if you work a survival job.

Also, transition requires us to be thick-skinned, which can be tough for some of us. We have to deal with people mis-gendering us, mocking us, telling us we can't use the ladies room. Oh, and I forgot to mention all the losses we face, and oh did I forget to say that we have to deal with lectures from family members or our so-called "friends".

One thing I have learned that I am going to have to live with, at least as long as my father is alive, and possibly after that too. If something bad happens - say I get seriously sick, or lose a job, or anything else. Not only do I have to worry that it might be a side effect of the hormones, or a result of discrimination for being trans. Yes, hormones have real side effects and trans discrimination is real. But I have to live with the fact that if it gets bad enough that I have to tell my family (extended illness, new address) that I will have to live with my family assuming, and badgering me, and worrying, that my illness was caused by the hormones, or that whatever just happened was because I was discriminated against because I am trans, even if that is just not the case. Hey, life happens on life's terms. And not all serious illnesses are a side effect of hormones. And not everything bad that happens to us is discrimination. Sometimes, shit just happens.

I know my father will react like this. A week after I came out to him, I needed to reach my mom. I called the house phone because she didn't answer her cell phone. Dad answered. This was on a Friday afternoon. I was sick and took the day off from work. Two days later, my dad sends me an email asking why did I call home on a Friday afternoon when I was supposed to be at work. He immediately assumed that I had lost my job and that is why I called home. I wrote him back and told him that I was sick and took the day off.

The other day my brother became concerned about my bronchitis, especially since I don't smoke and never had a history of bronchitis, and thought it might be a side effect of the hormones. I freaked out that my brother was looking for another excuse to try to oppose my transition and to get me to de-transition.

Sadly, I am going to have to live with this shit every time something bad happens, and I can't hide it from my family. Let's be real, I can't hide coughing for three weeks from my family. If I have to move for whatever reason (it may not be because of discrimination) I can't hide it from my family. I will have to tell them my new address so they can send me mail. Of course, my father (and possibly my brother) might automatically assume that I was evicted for being trans even though that is not what really happened. Yeah, seriously, every time something goes wrong and I can't keep it secret from my family, I will have to live with their paranoid remarks. For sure from my father. And possibly my brother unless he gets over his fears - which will not happen as long as my father is alive.

It is a rare male child who hasn't experimented with Mom's high heels at a young age.

Trying on women's clothes once doesn't mean your TG or even a CDer. It's the persistence of it that makes you a CDer or TS. Also, a CDer will persistently want to wear women's clothes. A TS will persistently want to wear women's clothes, and persistently hate their bodies, persistently think they're (or want to be) women, persistently have feminine behaviors/gestures/thinking. I will also say that anyone who publicly tries on an article of women's clothes is more likely to be, but not guaranteed to be TG.

Five years ago, a bunch of us went out to eat dinner. A female friend of mine (and currently a big trans ally) asked me, and three other guys, to try on lipstick. The three guys, who are all quite macho and probably not TG, all refused to wear it. They might have experimented with makeup as a kid privately and never got caught, but publicly they refused to wear it because their masculinity would be threatened. I was the only one who agreed to wear lipstick and I absolutely loved it. I wore it for the remainder of the night and removed it before going to sleep. This doesn't guarantee I am TG, and refusing to wear the lipstick doesn't guarantee I'm not TG, but odds are the ones who are not TG will refuse to try the lipstick publicly, and the ones who are TG might say yes and happily try it.

PaulaQ

05-13-2015, 03:14 AM

I understand where this belief comes from; it's due to the widespread fear that some person, somewhere is responsible for influencing our sexuality and sexual identity. For that would place blame for it, on another, or on ourselves. And the stigma of that responsibility is so great that no one could ever accept that they could be responsible. But why? What's the difference if someone is responsible for that?

No, of course the brain doesn't stop developing after birth. The point of such inquiries is to understand the course and origins of this phenomenon - that is that transexualism is, in reality, an intersexed condition affecting the brain. We know of many other intersexed conditions - they are about as common in the population as red hair. Indeed, another origin for trans people are intersexed people with ambiguous genitalia who've been "fixed" surgically at birth.

Because of the young age that being transgender is often expressed at, such biological mechanisms are more plausible than psychological ones. Of course with the human mind, such things are intertwined.

I also think an explanation like this is the only plausible explanation for people who are totally non-gender conforming. How do you influence someone to become something that hasn't existed in society before?

sometimes_miss

05-13-2015, 07:24 AM

Because of the young age that being transgender is often expressed at, such biological mechanisms are more plausible than psychological ones. Of course with the human mind, such things are intertwined.

The problem with that part of the theory, is it sometimes doesn't hold up. Not every TS person knows it or expresses it at a young age. There may be genetic or prenatal hormone influences. And that child MAY behave like the opposite physical sex, or may know that they don't quite feel like the other boys or girls, early in life. But then again, they may not until much later. Which of course brings up the question, at what point did they realize it, and why did it take that long? And the answer is, something changed. But we don't have the capability of going back in time to find and examine every incident and biochemical change that occurs during the pre-discovery lifetime of that TS. It's much easier to just say it's all that way from the start. But if it doesn't hold true for every TS, then we have to reexamine the concept.

PaulaQ

05-13-2015, 08:13 AM

@sometimes_miss - given that society encourages us to hide these differences we have, and the complexities of our minds, it isn't surprising that we express varying degrees of transness at differing times in our lives. Also, gender dysphoria certainly seems to be progressive - so some of us are able to suppress these feelings, until suddenly we aren't.

There are other precedents for this. I hate to use what is considered to be a pathological medical conditions as an example, but it's what I have:
- Schizophrenia manifests at different times in people's lives, and is often progressive, worsening over time. Current theory explains all of those conditions with a set of cellular defects in the brains of the schizophrenic that play out in complex ways that aren't predictable.

So partial sexual differentiation of the brain's structure could possibly explain some of the differences we see. Likewise, erasure of data in an individual's past also makes it tough to say whether or not someone expressed this in their past - they might not remember. For example, my mom was unsurprised when, at age 50, I came out to her. She remembered all the stuff I did as a kid that was evidence she didn't want to face.

Anyway, our minds are complex, and so it is no surprise to me that we see big differences between trans people, and when they express, and finally have to deal with their gender identity. The children who can't exist as their assigned at birth gender are more of a confirmation of the physical nature of the origin of this condition, than exclusive examples of validity. I simply don't think that those of us who transition at different times in our lives are fundamentally different from those kids - that this is psychological in origin for us, for example.

This isn't to say that someone couldn't have similar symptoms that have some psychological origin, but they really aren't trans in such a case. Such a person is probably the exceptional case, in my opinion.

We still have a great deal to figure out about gender identity. It may be a while before we have the full story.

Dianne S

05-13-2015, 08:43 AM

I know two people (one who did have SRS, I'm not sure about the other) who have detransitioned. I don't know the work situation, but the marriages were lost, damage was done to relationships with children and other people in their lives.

Oh, I agree with you completely that detransitioning is the absolute worst-case scenario and is to be avoided at all costs. That must have been an awful experience for the people you know.

There will always be some people who transition and then regret it. That's just a fact of life and we should not try to dismiss or minimize it. I also agree with Reine's point that TSes who make glib statements to CDers that they're probably going to transition are irresponsible.

I think our only point of disagreement is that I think it's OK to point out the reality that some TSes start out seeming to be CDers and only later realize they're TS. I do not think hiding truthful information helps anyone, so long as we disseminate the information in a responsible way with lots of qualifiers saying the numbers are unknown and likely quite small.

PaulaQ

05-13-2015, 08:59 AM

There are many possible reasons one might detransition. I think the most probable explanation is that these were people forced into the gender binary who simply did not fit it. So medically transitioning them to women ultimately did not solve their issues of dysphoria - neither gender would entirely. I expect there are cases where underlying psychological issues mimic GD, and transition was inappropriate. Also, not every patient who suffers from a medical condition gets better with treatment. Our existing treatments are sort of crude. Why are we surprised this happens here, but not with other physical conditions?

The frequency of these occurrences seem rare though - yet "OMG detransition!" gets thrown around on this forum a lot. Out of several hundred trans people I know, I know two, one who did detransition, and one who probably will. The first did so after a few months on HRT, when they realized it wasn't for them. The second one has been living as a woman for years. I'll be unsurprised if she continues to do so. (Scratch that - I know of three. The third simply can't medically tolerate estrogen, it will kill her.) I'd also point out Bruce Jenner, who pretty obviously detransitioned at least once - so even doing that doesn't prove much, because here he goes again.

About half the crossdressers I know tell me they've considered transition. (The other half are adamant they'll never do this.) We should not try to pretend that "so many detransition!" and "almost no CDs do!" because as a married woman, as good as those ideas might make you feel, they are almost wholly untrue.

CDing is a very common symptom for many of us who transition. You can pretend this is untrue all you want, but you are just lying to yourself.

None of the above, however, implies that your CD spouse will transition.

Oh, I agree with you completely that detransitioning is the absolute worst-case scenario and is to be avoided at all costs. That must have been an awful experience for the people you know.

The problem with preventing detransition is that it is largely impossible. No set of probing questions from a therapist is going to prove conclusively that someone is or is not in need of transition. I'm not saying you believe this, but there is a persistent belief by many on this forum that there exists some magical way to show: "this person will transition, this person will never transition." We don't know that we'll ever have such a diagnostic tool, or whether such a thing can even exist. I'll be unsurprised if all we are able to do is confirm "yes, what this person says about their identity seems to be backed up by the physical structure of their brains." You still wouldn't know, for sure, until you tried.

Teresa

05-13-2015, 11:44 AM

Chris_Cross,
It feels like a week since I read your thread and worked through the replies !
Trying to come back to your point, I feel that my wife and possibly many others never lose the thought of losing their partner once you've come out to them ! Even basic dressing doesn't help them !
Is it misinformation or not facing the truth ? Long term there may be an increase in denial going on !

The problem I'm finding is thinking that with age all this will go away hasn't happened ! Thinking I just have a problem wanting to wear women's clothes is developing into the idea that there's something more going on, deep feelings that just don't go away !
I believe now that many CDers can't honestly say they won't transition to some degree given the chance , they can manage to hold onto enough of their male traits and responsibilities , OK call it fighting the pink fog and winning !
I know now I have more than one issue in my brain continuously taking me down the possible TS route !

Sallee

05-13-2015, 12:04 PM

PaulaQ

05-13-2015, 12:27 PM

IN fact I think a good therapist should work on trying to make you not transition but just to be happy being who you are, to enjoy yourself being who you are.

I think all a good therapist can help you do is:
- figure out who you really are, whatever that means for you
- help you find strategies to be more comfortable with that, whatever the truth is for you. Discomfort over who we really are is common, unfortunately. (This applies to many things, not just being trans.)

Do you really need an operation to do that, to cut off a piece of anatomy that no one can see. Untill the operation includes making me shorter narrowing my shoulders and waist and widening my hips I don't think it is for me.

So you want to alter your secondary sexual characteristics? (just kidding!)

This is just me. if having SRS is going to make you happy then I guess do it. Everyone has to do what is best for them

Sallee, nobody does any of this to be happy. Would you say to a cancer patient - "Well, chemo wouldn't be for me, but if it makes you happy, go for it?" Or perhaps to someone who's bipolar "well, if it makes you happier, take your meds, but I don't see the point." Actually in that case, for some bipolar people, the meds make them decidedly less happy. Part of their problem is a manic phase where they are out of control. I've been told by people who suffer from this that it's really fun to experience - until you come to your senses and realize you've done some really unusual things.

This is about dealing with pretty serious discomfort. If that's your only problem then, yup, odds are, you'll be happy. If you have other issues, you may find this isn't the case at all - your crappy life is still your crappy life, but at least you feel less dysphoria.

I'll get GCS primarily because I'm really tired about having nightmares about the stupid thing between my legs, and feel quite a bit of discomfort and embarrassment that it's there. I dislike just about everything about it, and never really enjoyed using it for its intended purpose. In the past it has proved to be handy on camping trips - that's about it.

BTW, they don't cut it off. It's still there - "repurposed and reshaped" would be a better description.

Stephanie47

05-13-2015, 12:58 PM

I did not read the 150+ postings to your thread. Yep, your observations hit dead on. I can understand a woman has some serious concerns whether or not her husband is going to transition to being a woman. As a plain vanilla CD-er I cannot explain to my wife why I do what I do. She asked me, and, I told her I truly do not know why. I can tell her how I feel, that cross dressing is a stress reliever. I have never tried to give her a bull@#$% line that I do it because I love the clothing. Try telling a woman why you feel it is necessary to wear a bra. My wife still does not understand. Me too!

That being said, if my wife came to this site trying to gain knowledge, she is going to find a wide range of men wearing women's clothing. I know she fully understands and accepts the fact there are men and women born into the wrong body. My wife is smart enough to weed through the morass of statements indicating wait, just wait, here comes the hormones or presenting as a female 24/7 365 days a year. I suppose there are many very young brides who discovered there is something else lurking in their man that was totally foreign to them. Yikes! She will need help sorting out that out.

One thing anyone who seeks advice on this site and other sites, it is worth exactly what you paid for it. Remember, once the Genie is out of the bottle, she will not go back in. My desire to wear women's clothing has nothing to do with transitioning to a woman.

Badtranny

05-13-2015, 01:52 PM

Out of several hundred trans people I know,

Sheesh Paula, why do you say stuff like this? How do you know several hundred trans people? Your posts are usually seasoned with a bit of hyperbole but please keep in mind that too much can taste like plain old exaggeration, and that just spoils the whole presentation, if you know what I mean. Basically this is why I take everything you say with a grain of salt.

I realize we live different lives, but I get roughly a thousand visitors a month to my blog. A few of them contact me directly with questions or comments every month. I don't "know" these people but I do hear from them and it is nowhere near 'several hundred' even after the 3 or 4 years my site has been up. I don't do much 'community' stuff, but by virtue of being trans and living in God's country I do tend to meet a few here and there. I would say that I "know" roughly two dozen trans women (they have been to my house) and about a dozen of them I know well enough to call and hang out with.

Now I would never claim to be a social butterfly and I do have a tendency to keep to myself so let's use that as a divisor and give you a multiplier of 5. If you 'knew' FIVE times more trans women than me it would still fall waaaaay short of several hundred. Hell if it was TEN times more, it still wouldn't get you there.

I know Dallas is a progressive city (by Texas standards) and I know you're a bit of a community gadfly but how in the heck can you know several hundred trans people? I don't even know several hundred PEOPLE.

cheryl reeves

05-13-2015, 02:05 PM

Kaitlyn Michele

05-13-2015, 03:32 PM

Chris I would have to agree with you. I am a happy cross dresser who has really never thought about transitioning at least not seriously. IN fact I think a good therapist should work on trying to make you not transition but just to be happy being who you are, to enjoy yourself being who you are. If that means getting out and about dressed as a woman then go for it, enjoy. Do you really need an operation to do that, to cut off a piece of anatomy that no one can see. Untill the operation includes making me shorter narrowing my shoulders and waist and widening my hips I don't think it is for me.
This is just me. if having SRS is going to make you happy then I guess do it. Everyone has to do what is best for them

Nobody that understands what a transsexual is would ever say this.

tee hee....i'd get the surgery if they could widen my hips...LOL...ummmm no
Ignorance is bliss.

This message is actually a wonderful microcosm of the ignorance of many crossdressers towards transsexuals..

I'm glad not all cd's share this view, but it highlights how our actual problem and our needs are often disbeleived by many people at some primal level

stefan37

05-13-2015, 03:54 PM

like i have stated before not all ts's transition,instead they try to find a place of reconciling both sides..you might say im a hermorphidite,woman on top man on the bottom,to me transitioning would be the same as amputeeing a arm or leg.some transition only to have sex as a woman,some do it for other reasons and live lives of uncertainty,or being a total out cast. to me gender therapists are our worst enemy for you say the right words and wallah your now on hrt heading for the chopping machine. when i run across a pink fogger i tell them slow down or you might find yourself in a predicument that is gard to reverse.

Not even close. Some know unequivocally and move right along. Others struggle and take much longer. Transition is an extremely long process and yeah some do move quicker and end up regretting it. The majority of us know whether surgery is right or not before signing up.

I don't have any idea where the op would get the impression that A ts would tell anybody they need to transition. This is as sucky a condition imaginable. It completely disrupts all that are involved in our life. My need to transition inflicted way more anguish in my ex's and kids life than they deserved.

Yes there are bad therapists, and there are good ones. Therapy is absolutely a benefit to rule out co morbid conditions in addition to guiding an individual through there issues and the obstacles they may encounter.

For those of you that can CD or live in the middle successfully. Great. I'm happy for you. But if cd'ing or living in the middle causes distress. Your options are too desk with it and mitigate it however you can. Or suck it up and move forward incurring any losses that accompany moving forward. Including regret.

sometimes_miss

05-13-2015, 04:54 PM

To paraphrase the Bard, then: To transition, or not transition, that is the question. Written for your evaluation, I decided to wait a bit to write this, so perhaps some of you could easily open a second window to compare mine with Michelle789's post #130. The end result I came to was that I'm somewhere between CD and TS. Judge for yourself. (my more complete history & timeline is in the writers forum, link in my sig). Here we go.

I didn't like rough and tumble play either, and was also quite sensitive. The first, however, was mostly because I was always the littlest kid and routinely got pretty beat up in the process, always losing at any sort of physical competition; that'll kind of kill the enthusiasm for those 'boy' activities. My one episode of expressing desire to be a girl was dressing up to get mom's attention, jealous of my older sister. The self identity thing as female was years away.

I was not aggressive and didn't know how to approach girls either (well then, how many boys do?)

I was sexually abused, and basically became someone's private little girlfriend from age 7 on, often dressing up and behaving as a girl almost every day. Conditioned to believe I was a girl, by 8 it wasn't so much that I wanted to grow up to be a woman, but that I expected it. With that understood in my child brain, I accepted it, and in short order, embraced it. So I planned my life in that direction. This self reinforcement probably went a long way towards gender dysphoria later on.

I wanted to, and did, wear girls clothing often throughout the rest of my childhood and adolescence whenever I could. Kept things well hidden. I much later figured out that the draw was due to the innate desire for affection which was for me, connected to dressing, and behaving, as a girl. The only physical contact I ever had with another human being, and not being hit, was when I was in the arms of the guy who was having sex with me. Granted, not the ideal way to get the physical contact a child needs, but it was apparently better than nothing. Or so it seemed at the time.

I too was taunted as a sissy through childhood and adolescence. Rather than fight, I simply found ways to avoid other boys. Out of sight, out of mind. The vast majority of my time in life has been alone.

At age 14, the 'hook' of affection is gone; by then, I'm reinforcing the crossdressing behavior myself. Like Pavlov's dogs, I exhibit the behavior even when no 'reward' is forthcoming. And I still feel like I'm supposed to be a girl.

As opposed to Michelle, my body is not maturing through my mid teens at all; I wonder why? The gender identification becomes more confusing. Crossdresser, transsexual, not gay, but not exactly straight, what am I?

I consider TS and SRS but back then, it's almost completely unheard of, there are no support systems in place. I could never afford it so it isn't a possibility. I still feel like I'm a girl, but can't do anything about it.

Also, through my teens, romantic and sexual fantasies are distorted; Im very often a girl in the fantasies, but it's always with another girl. Why?? I can't figure that out. A TS lesbian? now that doesn't make sense, does it? (this was in the 60's and 70's). The discrepancy in self sexual ID in my fantasies has never resolved. When I see a pretty girl, I want to be her AND be with her. What a mess.

Socially isolated, very depressed I can't do much academically. Wanted to be a doctor, but can't keep the grades up long enough. Try business, do well, but hate every minute of it. Go back to school, manage to keep the grades up just long enough to become a nurse, at least I get to work in a field that I like. But becoming a nurse really screws up the gender confusion more, as in my mind the image of nurse is completely dominated by the idea of a pretty woman in a white dress. And every time I have to tell anyone what I am, the image of that stays in my mind. And so I see myself that way for many years. But the choice was, take a job I hate and be miserable, hoping for that to get my gender identity in order, or do what I love and continue to be screwed up? I basically chose the latter, at least I could bury myself in my work.

I also prefer the company of women, always have. But I understood men better until I got to around 40.

Still feel like I'm supposed to be female; but it's not the overwhelming, constant feeling that that mtf TS women say they feel, though. Just sort of an always in the background feeling that the body isn't quite right, that I'm not dressed right, not behaving right. Like a subtle itch that never quite goes away, it's always there. So, why not transition? Simple. It's not a good fit. I think like a man. I'm attracted to women. Im turned off by men, and don't trust men at all, so no relationship happening there. There is virtually NO possibility of an intimate relationship of any type with a woman should I transition. The number of women who are interested in dating a MTF post op TS are even less than the number of women who will date a CD; you could probably count them on one hand. I would be considered a freak by my coworkers. It would reintroduce me back to the time when I went through life always having to worry about being attacked physically. I would also lose my family and few friends. I would be completely alone, and that would kill me. And of course, I'm over six feet tall and on the high side of 250 pounds. The pretty woman that I want to be? Not a chance. Nope, not a good idea. Add it all up, and I'm not really cut out to be a woman. I don't hate being a man; it's not really right, and so it's not perfect, but it'll do
And like Michelle, it took me >30 years to figure it all out, reading everything I could get my hands on, taking every psych course I could, and once the online world became available, discussed this with every person that I could. So I understang why so many really have no idea why they have this gender identity problem.

And the most important thing that keeps me from doing something stupid, is, I've reconciled in my mind that we're not that different. Most of our lives, whether male or female, are the same. Throughout our day, wake up the same, wash, prepare food, feed the pets, eat, wash dishes, drive to work, work, come home, etc, almost all the same. I can deal with the few minutes of differences. CD'er, TG, non op TS, doesn't matter. Sure, if I could have been a normal, average girl from say, 14 on, life probably would have worked out much better. But that possibility was never going to happen. Life goes on.

I hope this provides some insight.

Badtranny

05-13-2015, 06:43 PM

And the most important thing that keeps me from doing something stupid, is, I've reconciled in my mind that we're not that different. Most of our lives, whether male or female, are the same. Throughout our day, wake up the same, wash, prepare food, feed the pets, eat, wash dishes, drive to work, work, come home, etc, almost all the same. I can deal with the few minutes of differences. CD'er, TG, non op TS, doesn't matter. Sure, if I could have been a normal, average girl from say, 14 on, life probably would have worked out much better. But that possibility was never going to happen. Life goes on.

Perfect.

Better to realize this now rather than later.

If I'm being 100% honest, I can't say for sure that I would do it all over again. I've had a pretty good transition overall and I'm pretty darn happy with my body. I feel comfortable in my skin for the first time in my life.

...BUT, the price for that satisfaction is extremely high and I wouldn't advise anyone that it's worth it. (any old broads that is, the kids are alright)

Michelle789

05-13-2015, 07:47 PM

@sometimes_miss

Very good introspection. The differences in our stories illustrate that there are many places we can fall on the spectrum. We're not just all TS, CD, or failures as men.

Sometimes there are other conditions as well that might prevent our bodies from maturing properly. I personally know of a genderqueer (born male) whose body didn't mature during their teens, ended up taking testosterone (and still does), but identifies as queer, and dresses and behaves in a way that just bends and blends gender expressions and gender roles.

PaulaQ

05-14-2015, 12:55 AM

Sheesh Paula, why do you say stuff like this? How do you know several hundred trans people? Your posts are usually seasoned with a bit of hyperbole but please keep in mind that too much can taste like plain old exaggeration, and that just spoils the whole presentation, if you know what I mean. Basically this is why I take everything you say with a grain of salt.

Actually I lead a local trans organization, and it wouldn't surprise me if I knew more trans people than you do at this point. I'm heavily involved in the community. I see people at our meetings and talk with them. (I try to make the rounds and talk with everyone.) I message people on facebook. I'm not sure how many I've had to my house. It's not uncommon for me to have people I've never met in person come over to my place though. A couple of weeks ago, I helped two girls from out of town with their makeup (one had never done her makeup before, the other just needed a place to change) before an awards ceremony for my group. They wanted to look nice. I do stuff like that all the time.

Yeah, hundreds is an exaggeration - although I am friended with hundreds of local trans people on facebook, and I follow their posts, and quite a number of them do post about their transitions.

Also, I tend to be the person people come to when they are having problems. I can't solve nearly all of their problems - lord I wish I could.

My only point being that I really do know an awful lot of people in transition, and relatively few of them detransition. Really it seems quite rare to me, at least if you get past the first year. As for people who regret GCS, the statistic I've seen is about 1% of us. So this seems quite rare.

Do you disagree that this is rare? My experience is that most people who detransition either:
1. Fail to launch - they never really get their transition going, often because of lack of resources, and sometimes because really, they weren't serious
2. Run out of coins - stop HRT because they lose their job
3. It's not for me - discover after a few months on HRT that they simply don't feel better
4. Do the hokey pokey - "put your left foot in, take your left foot out..." - some people start, then stop, then start again later, until they either give up, or finish

Anyway, if you feel this is a common problem, regret, detransition, etc. I'd like to hear about it. The only woman I know who may regret her vaginoplasty regrets it because her doctor seriously botched the job, and figured "aww, it's OK, she's probably a lesbian, right?" (He actually asked her whether or not she had a boyfriend!)

I don't have any doubt whatsoever that this stuff happens. I know it happens - I talk to people who've done it. I just don't talk to many of them. I only know one person who may detransition after several years. This happens too. I also know they used the best gender therapist in the area (I know the gender therapists in the area. There's only one I'm aware of with whom I haven't met personally.) So if their therapist couldn't see this coming, I don't really see how anyone else could.

...BUT, the price for that satisfaction is extremely high and I wouldn't advise anyone that it's worth it. (any old broads that is, the kids are alright)

This is one area our perspective differs. I fear absolutely nothing on this earth more than the feelings of gender dysphoria I faced a couple of years ago. There is literally nothing anyone could threaten me with that would make me agree to detransition. (In fact, I don't really feel much fear about any number of situations - this is sometimes rather dangerous for me.) If I hadn't done this, I'd be dead. No question about it. I needed about one more attempt on my life than I made, and I'd have finally gotten it right and ended it. I'm not saying your perspective is wrong or invalid - it's totally valid and I can appreciate where you are coming from. My perspective is that there is nothing in this life that I'll encounter that is worse than what I've already felt. And if I ever have the misfortune of discovering something worse than my GD, I'll simply end my life. (Weirdly enough, knowing this makes me want to live.)

Look, you and I have had very different paths through this, and we are different people in different situations. I'm not surprised our perspectives differ on these matters.

Sure, if I could have been a normal, average girl from say, 14 on, life probably would have worked out much better. But that possibility was never going to happen. Life goes on.

Honey, many of us would've been so much better off had it worked out that way for us. My god, I can't even begin to tell you how much better it would've been for me.

That said, I'll tell you the same thing I tell others - it is only to late to transition when you are dead. If you don't face such a horrible quandary - "transition or die", then I'm very happy for you, and can only wish you the best, and hope the path you are on is the best one for you. Sometimes all our choices suck - that is one of the awful parts of being trans.