OK, so we had the FIRST BIG talk -- need your best resources

[kaleyg]

Late last night, she wanted to talk. She wanted to know my true feelings about crossdressing and related stuff.
"If you were single, what would you do?"
I told her I would buy my own clothes, etc. and try them out to see what it is like.
"But we did that for Halloween (a few years back)."
Yes, but dressing then was always either a joke or something shameful. I would want to see what it feels like now that I'm seeing things differently.

She expressed some worries, fears, bad feelings. I was scared. I said I thought we should find ways for me to express my feminine side in a healthy way, but I didn't make suggestions. I was afraid to say "Can I buy some clothes?" or "Can I dress up on trips?"

This morning and today, she's been fine. We haven't talked more about it yet.

I want to offer her some stuff to read for wives who are struggling and aren't sure what to do. I don't want her to feel backed into a corner, though. So much of the stuff out there implies that any decent person would accept this and start shopping for their crossdressing husband. That's too fast, I think. I also don't want to send her to websites that have horror stories, talk about transitioning, or are littered with ads for shapewear and breast forms.

So, what are your best resources for reading? I've looked at "My Husband Wears My Clothes," and wasn't impressed.

[msniki48]

Kaley,

Is there anyone in the GG section that might offer some suggestions on material?

Has your wife known for a time that you care to dress? what has changed that she all of a sudden wanted to talk late last night?

I see you are taking it slow, and being considerate... which is a good thing

I wish I had some articles saved that are appropriate.... most of my info is toward transgender... if you think that will help I will get them to you.

stay beautiful and speak softly,

hugs

niki

[Meghan4now]

Kaley,

I haven't shared any resources with my wife either. There is some pretty good stuff out there that I'm considering. Ladylike.org.uk had some good articles that have been copied around the internet. Rachel williston has pdfs of them. I've also seen some good stuff on certain blogs but am not sure if I would show them either. Heidi phox has some interesting comments and some of her photos are really good, but there are a few lingerie shots that your wife may or may not appreciate.

I get your reluctance but maybe a cut and paste or printed version of some specific articles would help?

[Marcelle]

Hi Kaley,

My wife and I went through a similar phase and to be honest, short of the psychological literature which talks about GD I found the same thing as you . . . various sites which could have the exact opposite effect. I talked to my therapist and she agreed to speak to my wife if she (my wife) was willing. They spent two sessions (me not present) together and then one session with all three of us and that was the best source of information I could have hoped for. My wife explained that my therapist did not sugar coat the whole GD aspect of things but then again she never implied I was heading for transition. We worked on a plan to discuss all things TG (good, bad, fears) once a week together and promised not to hide our feelings about it. There is lots of literature out there. Have you contacted a local TG support group who might be able to provide some information in this regard?

Hugs

Isha

[kimdl93]

I would let her think about and process what you've discussed so far, and instead of written materials, encourage her to speak with a well informed gender therapist. The therapist will be very well acquainted with the kinds of apprehensions your wife shares with many other partners of cross dressers and can help expand her understanding and confidence level.

[kaleyg]

She's known about my desires to cd since before we married, but we have always seen it as something bad to be repressed/overcome. Now i'm moving toward embracing it as part of me and something good, and I'm hoping she might also.
My therapist is referring us to a specialist on gender and marriage, so I'm hoping she'll be up for doing that.

[PaulaQ]

If you do use a gender therapist, I'd recommend that you speak to them yourself first. My ex-wife spoke with a gender therapist in Tulsa two years ago. She described my general emotional state, and the therapist concluded that I'd transition, which was, of course, devastating to her. Indeed, he further predicted I'd likely, in his experience, get SRS. So look, this therapist had never spoken to me, and I guess could well have gotten it all wrong. He was actually correct on all counts - but still, I hadn't even figured out any of that stuff by that point. So, I'd recommend you talk with the therapist first before sending your wife to them. For example, I'd ask if the therapist has dealt with many crossdressers, or only people who transition? (You want someone who knows both.) I'd also, if they'll allow it, discuss where you are with your feelings / CDing with them before your wife talks to them, because she may not be able to convey that to them well.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

My initial thoughts are that the two of you seeing a gender specialist together is your best bet. CDing is many things to many people, but what you wife most likely needs is to understand not only what it means to you but what it will actually actually be like in your life together. You are the only one who can answer that, but it will be best if that is worked out with the help of a trained specialist. If I think of anything else I'll let you know.

B

[Jenniferathome]

This forum's female members who have or have had cross dressing husbands are the BEST resource possible. And this group is not all love and sunshine when comes to a cross dressing husband but they are sincere and real.

Have her join. Make 10 meaningless posts and then she can join the FAB forum. Private access for women only.

The he problem with books espoused here is that it is one individual account.

Now, that aside, your response to,"If you were single, what would you do?" I told her I would buy my own clothes, etc. and try them out to see what it is like."

looks like a cop out to me. See what it's like? Come on, you're cross dressing now. You don't get multiple chances to come clean. Tell it all, all the you know or think, and go from there.

[kimdl93]

She's known about my desires to cd since before we married, but we have always seen it as something bad to be repressed/overcome. Now i'm moving toward embracing it as part of me and something good, and I'm hoping she might also.
My therapist is referring us to a specialist on gender and marriage, so I'm hoping she'll be up for doing that.

I think you're on the right track, particularly the referral. I like the way you have phrased this as embracing this part of you as something good. In some sense, you're replacing a negative filter, one created by outdated, inaccurate and harmful prejudices with a new, constructive and positive filter.

[Kristy 56]

I have to agree with kimdl93. You're definitely on the right track,and the fact that your wife is on board is definitely a good sign. Slow & steady wins the race. Good luck to you both. :)

[Samantha Clark]

I've tried to look for good resources, but everything I've encountered would be too scary for an SO who is new to the idea and has so may doubts, fears and insecurities.

I really think the best resource is YOU, and your gentle understanding of her and her feelings. Let her share her feelings with you, while you are supportive and understanding of her. Tell her that you know and understand how hard this is for her, and that you understand that she has fears and worries. Reassure her without telling her what to feel.

[Linda E. Woodworth]

OK, here's my $1.25 worth of input. (I'm writing more than 2 cents worth!)

With regard to books and printed material concerning Crossdressers there are either Peggy Rudd's series which your familiar with or "By Husband Betty" by Helen Boyd. I think this one is excellent. I don't recommend the sequel as Betty has started to transition but when the first book was first she was strictly crossdressing.

That being said I would recommend you read the book first to see if it meets your needs.

I would also suggest that you take it slow and don't force the books on your wife. I've got copies of all of these and my wife has read only 1 out of the 8 or 10 I have. I don't recommend that one at all and won't list its title.

Now about therapy. I am a big believer in it and have been seeing my Therapist for 7 years now. That being said my wife "assumed" we were plotting together to plan my transition and then spring the trap on her. How she got this idea I don't know but I must admit be don't talk much about my dressing. When she finally met my therapist it was like night and day. From then on things were much more positive and supportive. To this day I still don't know what the two of them talked about but it was worth it in my book.

Bottom line, you need to meet with the therapist first so that they know you and what your goals and dreams are. Then they can talk to your wife and you won't be surprised by anything the therapist says.

I hope this helps and good luck!

[NZ_Dawn]

Hi Kaley

I have similar thoughts on books, "My Husband Betty" was fine, but the mistake we made was that my wife read the sequel first while I read "My Husband Betty". MISTAKE and it blew her world apart, and she could only see where I was heading (NOT!). I suggest to look to this group which is why I have encouraged my wife to join. There is a great amount of support and information that will help and allow her to form her own opinion, as well as the communication you both have on this.
All the best.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Kaley, Well the ball is kind of in her court now, Go easy and keep the lines of communications open
just don't overwhelm:love:her with this program. :daydreaming:

[kaleyg]

Lots of good advice, thank you everyone! Jennifer -- you're right that I chickened out on that question. I'm trying to work my way toward total honesty, rather than jumping off the cliff. Maybe this isn't right. I don't know. Linda -- I'm going to pick up Boyd's book.

Thanks everyone!

[Jenniferathome]

Kaley, you did the hard part already. You came out! Nothing you can say now is harder than that! Remember that if you only give partial truths, your wife will begin to wonder if every answer you give has yet another shoe to drop. Best of luck

[ReineD]

This is the link that my SO sent me, 8 years ago when he first told me via email. We were just beginning our relationship at that time:

http://www.tri-ess.org/cd01.html

I haven't read any of the books so I cannot comment on them.

In my opinion, there are two good ways to communicate with your wife.

The first will require you to take some quiet time alone first to look into the deepest recesses of your heart, with as much honesty and objectivity you can muster, and determine what all of this means to you and what you would ultimately like to do. What is your ideal: giving equal time to both your feminine and masculine expressions, or would you rather spend more time as one over the other. Would you ultimately like a social life as Kaley? If so, would you limit it to people in this community or would you like to come out to family, friends, coworkers. Your avatar looks very nice so it doesn't look like you are struggling with whether or not to buy a wig, makeup, breast forms, etc. But are there ways you would like to alter your body? Once you have answered these questions, you will be able to tell your wife. You can only help her understand where you're at if YOU know exactly where you're at.

The second is to tell your wife how varied is our community and also tell her there is not one website or one book that will encapsulate what this means to you and what you need. But, you can invite her to read with you the huge selection of threads here, so you can then tell her what fits and what doesn't fit. Reading threads together is a great way to explore the different aspects of the CDing.

Had I known in the beginning that my SO's goal was to be able to do as much while dressed as he does in male mode, I think it would have been easier. Also, if your wife ends up being supportive, please try to not go through a Pink Fog stage. It can be tough on a marriage.

Good luck!

[DanaR]

Reine nailed it. The only thing that I would emphasize is how important the honesty would be. If she sees that you aren't hiding anything from her, she might have an easier time. My wife took a long time to get where she is today, but I was honest with her.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I'm not sure how long it is since you first told her, and I'm assuming she didn't find out some other way? How has your marriage fared since she found out?

It's important that she understands that 'embracing your feminine side' isn't about you suddenly becoming a woman and expecting her to accept that, it's about you accepting this repressed aspect of yourself fully and finding deep personal happiness in so doing. There should be no blame in this, no fault, and if anything your increased happiness should mean she feels the benefit of that too, in a more peaceful, harmonious marriage.

That's all assuming you don't want to transition...

You could go through the forum archives cutting and pasting relevant posts and threads, print them and give them to her. That way you'd be asking her to look only at what you want her to see.

Good luck Kaley.

[Beverley Sims]

I would just talk it through any time she appears interested to have the conversation.

Just don't push all your issues at once, this could take a couple of years and, patience is a virtue .

[ReineD]

Just don't push all your issues at once,

The trouble with this approach, Bev, is that it is dishonest and manipulative. It places the wife in a position of continually being asked to raise the bar, when she thinks that at any given point in time her husband is happy with the status quo. Reminds me of a schemer who secretly says to himself, "I'll get her used to the wig, then I'll introduce the forms, then the makeup & pierced ears, then shaving all over, then going out to a TG support group, and then everywhere else .... " when he knows all along what he wants to do. This is exactly the sort of things that make wives wonder if their husbands are TS and will not stop until they've transitioned.

Why shouldn't Kaley tell her wife what she wants to do. IMO if wives know that it is pretty standard for CDers to want to go out occasionally and experience interaction with others while dressed and they need to look the part in order to do this, and it doesn't mean they want to transition full time or be in relationships with men, I should think it would make things easier in the long run. The wife will know what to expect and they can work on how much the wife wants to be involved and who in their lives should know and not know.

[Stephanie47]

Amen, Beverley. Kaley, You're the best resource. You're the only one who has the answers to her questions...as it pertains to you and her.

[kaleyg]

Reine -- This is EXACTLY the sort of perspective I was hoping for! THANK YOU!!!!!! It sounds so obvious now that you point it out.

[kimdl93]

Kaley, I think that Reine's advice is excellent. Incrementalism, the idea of turning up the temperature slowly, may work with frogs, but it insults the intelligence of humans. Your wife knows a lot already and if you don't fill in the blanks, she may do it with her fears and prejudices.

Mind you, I don't know if you or any of us can say with absolute certainty where 'this' will end. Whether it's simply a matter of curiosity, progression, or revelation, most human beings do change over time. So, leave each other some room to change and grow.

[TinaMc]

I found I related strongly to this essay, and forced ;) my wife to read it, and I think she appreciated it: http://www.vqronline.org/essay/my-life-girl
For me, it describes the way I feel in terms of strong feelings, but not so strong that I would go to the lengths that Helen Boyd's partner goes to in My Husband Wears My Clothes. It describes well that kind of take it or leave it in terms of the actual action of crossdressing, but it's still an important aspect of me that certainly exists.
It went down better than a couple of ill advised chapters of Alice in Genderland, anyway...

[justmetoo]

Oh, I like that essay, TinaMc! Thanks for sharing it.

[Bluesman]

http://www.amazon.com/Men-Bras-Panties-Dresses-Transvestites-ebook/dp/B00IQYD20M/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1431206999&sr=1-1&keywords=men+in+bras+panties+and+dresses

[kaleyg]

Well, we had another long conversation the other night, and it turns out there is a very firm wall standing in the way of her acceptance. She basically said, "I'm not going to be married to someone who dresses up as a woman for fun." I know that's a bit of a mischaracterization, but the quote isn't quite right either. Regardless, she doesn't quite get where I'm coming from yet. Some of her words felt VERY hurtful and I was depressed for a day or two over it. She sensed I was hurt and did try to comfort/reassure me -- I know she loves me. She just believes that crossdressing is unhealthy and ridiculous. At one point, she said, "How would you feel if I wanted to get a boy haircut and wear a jock strap?" I kind of giggled, and said I'd approach it the same way I was approaching my situation -- talking and thinking about it a lot. Trying to understand. Honestly, if she really needed to do that on occasion (well, hair cuts aren't "on occasion"), I'd be ok with it, I think. If she wanted to do it all the time, and in the bedroom, I think it would be harder.

Not sure where to go from here. I suppose I could try for a "don't ask, don't tell" arrangement? I think she understands this isn't going away.

Anyway, I appreciate your prayers and positive thoughts/vibes.

[Katey888]

Kaley - be patient... :hugs:

Keep caring and keep showing your affection for her... I sometimes think that we forget how much we understand about tolerance and the strangeness of this thing because we experience it. It's much harder for others to accept these aspects of other people that seem to defy reason and rationality - because the feelings and desires are not really reasonable or rational - they just are...!

If she is to accept this at all and to any level I think it's going to take a lot longer and you have to accept that as the difficulty with something that is just so... out there. Seriously... alcohol or substance abuse would probably be easier to convey a motivation or justification for than this... :facepalm:

Be patient - Keep Calm - play the long game... :)

Katey x

[KimBarely]

I so feel your situation. I came out to my wife about 3 weeks ago. At first shock and some of the basic first questions. A couple days later I got blasted a bit. As a woman, a GG, she had every right to unload on me.

Being a woman as she explained to me is not only just feeling pretty and getting your nails did. She made me appreciate that being a woman also comes with getting paid 83 cents on the dollar, not being taken seriously or conversely being labeled the "bitch" in the office if you speak up, monthly cramps and hormonal swings, pressure to look attractive, self-esteem issues from aging yet being held to that same ideal of attractiveness, etc. Basically, a whole bunch of crap that genetic guys don't have to deal with. Men truly have the easy street in society. I sat, I shut my yap, I listened, I heard her. I felt very small and petty playing dress up for my stress relief. It can be very insulting to a woman who knows what it's really like to BE woman all her life, to hear that a man, her man, wants to dress up to feel pretty or comforted. For us, it's an exploration or expansion of self-expression. For GG it's life and reality.

Sorry if I'm coming off preachy or unsupportive of your circumstance. I so support and understand you're hurt. I really understand your need for acceptance as I do as well in my own situation. An iPhone is not best for deep thought typing.

I would just say that listening to her frustrations is not necessarily a bad thing. It's tough to hear but worth listening. Our respective wives have wisdom that we need to hear.

On a funny note, about 15 min after I came out to her, she said to me, (paraphrased) "So it makes you feel 'good' to wear women's clothes?"

Me: "Um, yeah"

Wife: "Well God bless your heart! I can't think of anything more uncomfortable than all the things women have to wear. Shape wear and a thong riding up your ass. I pity you."

We both laughed...

[cheryl reeves]

i can never figure out how any sane person would wear a thong...lol

[Linda E. Woodworth]

Kaley,

I have to agree with everything Katey's already said, take it slow, be patient, never stop communicating and play the long game. What seems like forever for you is only a short time for her.

I know you want to talk about this at length with her. Your brimming over with thoughts and emotions you want to share. Don't right now. Too much too fast is going to scare the living daylights out of her. I tried talking about hormones with my wife, and why I didn't want to go near them, and instead she thought I wanted to start taking them!

Something I use at work all the time applies here. Remember that the reality of the situation doesn't matter if her "perception" of it in entirely different. She's going to go with the perception every time. That's why I stressed to always keep the lines of communication open.

[Linda E. Woodworth]

Cheryl,

I have to wear a dance belt, male thong, for ballet class every time.

You can get used to anything over time.:dance:

[MissTee]

Sending thoughtful vibes your way, as requested, Kaley. Good luck, sweetie.

[Rachelakld]

My thoughts,
a) Crossdressing is not for fun
b) if she is a "real" woman, she should be working in the kitchen or laundry, have zero control of finances, not allowed to drive, and do as you tell her.
c) if she wants to be a modern woman, with the freedom for self determination, you should have the same rights - yes?
d) if something doesn't change in her attitude, I would find the door, or a life time supply of Prozac

[Teresa]

Kaleyg,
This all sounds so familiar,I do feel for you !
I assume you've done your homework and tried to get answers that she may or may not accept but if it's the truth she can't accuse you of hiding what's inside you !
I joined the forum just thinking I was struggling with wearing the wrong clothes, I eventually find that I born with it, some wires got crossed and it's not going away !
She's made the usual farcical comparisons, she doesn't need to CD but for whatever reason you do, your still the same person and yes the guy she married is still there !
Women need a better explanation than it's something I enjoy doing, that may be true but you need to tell her genuinely how much it would affect your health if she made you stop . DADT is OK as long as you work out sensible boundaries, they have to work for both of you, my wife put herself on the wrong side of them to the point she couldn't walk through her own front door !
As everyone will say you have to keep talking but it's not the same problem to her as it is to you, so try not and make the subject of every conversation !
I hope you can work a way through this, I know it's not easy .

[Stephanie47]

I posted on your last thread. Reine kind of took some of us to task indicating you're the best resource. Maybe I have to back pedal a little. "I'm not gong to be married to someone who dresses up as a woman for fun." Did you actually say that? Thirty plus years ago my wife and I had "The Talk." It does not sound as if you expressed yourself adequately. There is a big world of difference in answering such questions. Are you trying to say "Why you do what you do" or "What you get out of it." I told my wife then as I would now, "I do not know why I wear women's clothing." What does wearing women's clothing bring me (beside my wife's angst)? "I find it relieves my stress." "It is an avenue of escape."

My wife shot back to me, "If you think you feel like a woman, then try having a baby!" All this drama stopped when I stopped trying to gain some sort of acceptance. As I have said many times before, I can to the realization trying to make my wife accept cross dressing was nothing short of mental spousal abuse. She told me it was alright with her if I went to a support group.

Yes, the answer was "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." And, that meant, even if I had the desire, I would not don women's clothing in front of her. I would do nothing to feminize my body, i.e, nice wavy blond hair back then, grow out my fingernails, thin eyebrows.

If you're going to tell your wife the reason you wear women's clothing is for "fun," you are digging a hole. If you do it for "fun," then you might want to take up fishing.

[Marcelle]

Hi Kaley,

I am so sorry to hear about your current situation. I can't add much that Katey has already said except "communication". Your wife may be responding to pent up frustration over the reveal and it is just coming out in the current form you are experiencing. Give it a bit of time, when she is ready, talk again. It is possible that you can reach an accord of sorts and move forward from there. Your wife does seem to have a misunderstanding of what dressing means to you (I know you paraphrased here comments about doing it for fun) so I would take another stab at explaining what it truly means to you and how dressing and "not dressing" can affect you. In the interim, we are all here for you.

Hugs

Isha

[Beverley Sims]

Kaley,

Nothing is going to happen overnight, in your case as with a lot of others it will be a long drawn out process, try not to envy those that have had quick success but dig in for a long haul. There are a lot out there that remain silent. I may have had a good time when single but marriage obligations made me reign my activities in for a long period.

Having nothing more to add I wish you the best in your endeavours.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I feel that crossdressing is about expressing the complete self, not the emergence of an abstract 'replacement' of the male self she married.

You could try explaining it that way- that it isn't a fun pursuit in the same vein as tennis or amateur dramatics- it's a calling from a repressed fraction of the whole. These days most people know something about repression, and if she doesn't, then educate her (gently).

It's misguided of her to compare your dressing with her own experiences as a woman. If she must make a comparison, it would be more like society telling her she couldn't wear trousers or vote.

Good luck Kaley.

xxNikki

[Jazzy Jaz]

I agree that greater communication at her pace could be the best strategy. Cding for us is definately not unhealthy, its just part of who we are. I totally recognize and respect the oppression that women have and very much still go through. On the other hand I think some women and people in general dont recognize the imense oppression that we go through every day as well. We are not just merely MEN, we are transgender etc. We cant go outdoors without worrying about who might find out or whether or not we might be harmed for being who we are. Sure we can keep it in the closet and "blend in" but that in itself is a result of our oppressive society. I respect and admire those of us who are out and blaze trails. Also a woman doesn't have to spend a good portion of her life hiding that she's a woman from her family, SO, and friends. Our cding isn't intended to mock or disrespect women, rather it speaks to our admiration and connection with women and being tg helps us to be more aware and sympathetic to some of what women struggle with than regular men. Whether or not an SO will accept you can be a long growing or suffocating process but at the end of the day you should be able to be who you are whether with your SO or if you have to be on your own. Best wishes!

[Alice Torn]

Kim barely. Thanks for sharing. Your wife has true points. But, men have the "easy street" in society, is not always so. Men are more isolated, considered predators, feared, devalued, rejected more, stifled emotionally, die younger, lack intimacy. Both genders have difficult, but different difficulties. But, your wife is right about the burdens women suffer. Being beauty and sex object. Men are success objects, and if not successful, considered losers.

[KimBarely]

Alice, I totally agree with what you're saying. My post wasn't a complete thought of what's been going on in my situation. The point I didn't really round out was that getting acceptance or just equilibrium in a relationship when the CD bomb goes off takes time. It's a process. Both partners need time to listen, digest, talk, discuss, vent, blow up a bit, and even get on with other things in life not related to CD'ing.

Also, I want to point out that my wife's reaction was 2 days past me coming out to her. She didn't and probably still doesn't understand the rationale or drive for why I feel I want to CD. I've seen more than a few people on the forum state they don't understand it or can't explain it in themselves. I'm rambling a bit but, I guess what I'm trying to say is this. I understand why my wife "unloaded" on me. I get it. I appreciated that she had been thinking out this situation rather than pretending it was all a bad dream. She's trying to figure out her own feelings on the matter and I just hope that we all give our SO's the room and time to hopefully find that equilibrium.


Kaley, I’m sorry if my reply didn’t hit the mark. I hope you and your wife are able to talk more about this. I’m sure you’re both a bit scared. I know my wife and I are too.

As far as books, we've both been devouring them. My Husband Betty was great. It covers the whole gamut.

Also, Head over Heels was really great. All personal stories written by wives of CD's and TS's.

I hope these help.

[sometimes_miss]

With regard to books and printed material concerning Crossdressers there are either Peggy Rudd's series which your familiar with or "By Husband Betty" by Helen Boyd. I think this one is excellent. I don't recommend the sequel as Betty has started to transition but when the first book was first she was strictly crossdressing.
If you recommend one, she'll read the other as well, so be prepared. We live in an information age.


Bottom line, you need to meet with the therapist first so that they know you and what your goals and dreams are. Then they can talk to your wife and you won't be surprised by anything the therapist says.
^this. When my wife and I started seeing a therapist, the therapist said in the very first session that she wouldn't keep any secrets between husbands and wives. Yet when things started to go downhill, and I asked her about what they discussed, she wouldn't tell me, claiming that it was confidential. When I asked about the initial 'no secrets' pledge she gave, well that apparently changed, and she had more concern for the wives than the crossdressers. Be careful. If you start having separate sessions, you could be walking into a landmine field.

That said, the biggest thing you can do is continue most of your life as normal. Your wife will need to know that the man she married is still there. The occasional dip into the laundry basket of panties and dresses may be less irritating to her if it seems like only a temporary 'joy ride'. It may be when you want to start coming to bed dressed as a girl that it will screw up her image of who and what you are.

[TrishaLake]

First, women take time. You need to give them that time especially if they are finding out after being in a relationship with you. I am just dressing with her after three years. I started after a year with just panties in bed. Now I am not interested in going out or transitioning for me , it is more sexual in nature. Second, get therapy for you and her. Everyone needs someone to talk to. I found one that takes us both and that is helpful when we get together in the sessions. I guess some women will never get over the hurt and shock , but more importantly as we get older we need to be comfortable with who we are. I iwhs you good luck and if you want to chat I am always here.

[kaleyg]

I didn't think it would get worse, but I'm really empathizing with all the girls' who've gone through hell with their wives over this in the past. I can't see a future where she accepts ANYTHING right now. I do understand her view -- it isn't irrational. But I still feel hurt and unloved. She is still angry and isn't really treating me with empathy -- she thinks I'm crazy. So many of the things I've heard others say here -- I'm now hearing them come out of my wife's mouth. Maybe I was crazy to take this step. Is this really better than just dressing in secret? I feel like this is harming my marriage and life FAR more. AAAUUUGGGHHH! Need your prayers and positive thoughts/vibes.

PS -- something she said that made me think . . . am I "pretending" to be a woman when I dress? I never thought of it that way before. But I guess I am. That seems odd. If I'm just expressing my feminine side, then why, exactly, do I need to wear a bra? Is it is just for practical reasons--so that clothes will fit properly? Or is it part of trying to present as a woman to others (wanting to pass)? Maybe going the whole 9 yards is just a great way to "feel" feminine, since these things are all associated with femininity.

PSS -- she has agreed to talk about finding alternative ways to express my feminine side. If she asks for suggestions, what do you recommend?

Thanks, Kaley

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Hey K,
I'm sorry you are having a rough time right now. It is certainly going to be a drawn out process for her to accept that the desire to present as a woman is always going to be with you. There's another thread going based on a scientific article about the biological basis for gender identity. It got me thinking, though, even if there is a natural cause for thinking and identifying one's self as feminine, why does that translate into the need to dress as such. It makes me wonder if the culture was reversed (men wore skirts & dreses, women in trousers) would we as TG individuals have the desire to still look like society's idea of what women should look like. If that is the case then it really is an issue of identity. If not, there is really is something about the clothes themselves that drives our behavior. In my case where dressing is not an option in my marriage, even under DADT conditions, I still find myself driven to present myself with a feminine appearance. Why? I wish I had an answer.

As far as ways to express you feminine side without dressing, I don't have any easy answers. My little experiment with being a digital woman has its plusses, but it still lacks the total satifaction that would come from being en femme. Perhaps we will hear from others who have sacrificed dressing for the sake of their marriages and lean how they have coped.

[Lorileah]

I once knew a guy who wore full cowboy regalia daily. Boots, chaps, vest the whole thing. In his mind he wasn't playing a cowboy, it was who he was. I see people in scrub outfits everywhere. They don't do surgery, but it is comfortable in their job. They aren't pretending to be a surgeon. As Sigmund Freud would say, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Janet161]

Gosh Kaley, I literally know just how you feel. I wish I had an answer for you. I would say that I think Katey's advice is really good. Not the easiest road but I don't see any other way. You know, with me it seemed like the more I told my SO, the worse it got. That was when I decided to back down and minimize everything. (not the best approach in seeking an honest open relationship-but I felt like I had to do it for self preservation-whatever that is) I probably should not have responded to this thread because I am probably the poster child for how not to deal with one's SO on this thing-yet, here I am, offering at least my sympathy, empathy and support.

You were not crazy for telling her. Definitely not. Do not beat yourself up. It is, at least in my opinion, perfectly natural to want to do that. You were just being you-the real you. And you were trying to be honest. There is nothing crazy or wrong with that. People that have the feelings that we have are WAY ahead of the curve on this thing than the rest of our fellow persons. And look at what a hard time we all have with it, right? That is why this, tell the SO thing, is so very perilous.

[pamela7]

"yes but" a total revelation is only possible IF you actually know everything you want.
my own small experience shows that I only realised what was what i liked versus fantasy versus no idea i'd even like it ... by trying.
So all you can really do is explore what you'd like to explore and then feedback on what was good, what was not, what you'd like go further with, and explain its not all known, cos really the subconscious genie is just that!!

[Suzie Petersen]

Kaley,

Sorry for both you and your wife that you are struggling with this. It is not easy for either of you and there are unfortunately no easy answers.

The thing to remember, is that what you feel inside cannot be translated into understandable words. Your wife's only option is to attempt to rationalize it and get it to make sense. To her, and it seems to most people, it just doesnt make sense and to be perfectly honest, although I know that need and desire very very well, it never made sense to me either! That makes it much harder to argue for why others should accept us.

I went through something similar to what you are now experiencing. At the end, I realized that my choice was between completely stopping dressing or loosing my marriage and my family life. I chose to stop dressing!

Like Bridget, my "girl side" now only exist in the digital world, and barely that anymore. I recently started visiting this forum as a form of an outlet and entirely to help others by sharing my experience and my story. I am not here to seek help for myself in any form.

It is a long story but the short of it is that my wife actually tried to understand, tried to accommodate and tried to accept. At some point, something inside her started breaking and she just couldn't handle it anymore. She took some pretty drastic steps to get my attention and I finally realized there were only those two possible choices I mentioned above.
I could not bear the thought of loosing my family and I chose to put all my mind into stopping.
I stopped visiting TG Chatroom, deleted my substantial website which was primarily advise and information, deleted all my online pictures, asked T friends to forget about me and I purged all my stuff with exception of the nice more expensive things which I intended to sell. All of this was done in a matter of a day or so. Sometime later I ended up just getting rid of the sellable clothing and footware too.

It was not easy at all, but like some other things in life, it had to be done. All this happened 7 years ago and I have so far kept my promise to her and to myself.

Do I still think about it? Yes I do, but I dont act on it.
Will I ever stop having the feelings? I doubt it, but I feel I can control it better now.
Will I even dress up again? I don't know, I think it could happen, but I will try hard not to as I know what the personal cost might be.

I have so far managed to work through this, but I know of others in similar situations who were unable to stop. Some ended up with deep internal scars and some real problems which required professional treatment. And at the end, they were unable to stop the dressing and ended up going through painful divorces.

Something else happened in our life some years ago. It was very traumatic and when ever I think of it, I can barely function normally. It causes sadness, depression and crying, all of which is a problem in a normal work life. I had to develop methods to divert my thoughts to something different and more positive whenever these thoughts enter my mind. I remove myself from whatever triggered the thoughts and I have a few very specific things I focus my mind on to simply keep my head occupied and not allow it time to drift into the sorrow corner. One of the techniques is a math problem I solve in my head and another is going through the details of a substantial restoration project I am working on. It doesnt matter what it is, as long as my mind is busy and not allowed to run around freely.
To some extend, I do the same with the thoughts of dressing. The dressing thoughts can be triggered by many things around me such as seeing a well dressed woman in a magazine or on TV, passing a shoe store or any number of other situations.

Many things in life are based on choices. Some of them are really hard to make and hard to live with. You have to find out for yourself which of the options are the least hard to live with. If what you chose to reject is hard for you, you might have to harden yourself to make it through.

With all that said, you should not give up yet. Your wife is still processing this and you may or may yet have given her the insight she needs to make a real decision. It is a very normal reaction to chose to not want to deal with something and simply refuse to work towards a compromise and put all the responsibility for the solution on the partner. She likely do not understand how deep the emotional stress of this can be for you and how traumatic it can be to be denied the freedom to dress up now and then.

Contrary to what some might tell you, I dont think it has to do with if she loves you or not. I am convinced my wife loves me, but I had to realize that this was simply something she was unable to handle. Everything else in our life is as close to being a perfect marriage as I can imagine.

The fact that your wife is at least talking with you about other ways to express this, indicates that she is now trying, but it also tells me that she does not understand the dept of the issue yet. You cannot really substitute dressing with something else and get the same satisfaction and you can probably not explain to her why that is.

Keep talking with her, but be careful not to push the issue. Suggest she seek information from other people / sources, but let her know that she will likely come across information that does not relate to how you feel and that it will be difficult for her to judge what is what.

- Suzie

[cheryl reeves]

keep fooling yourself that you can go without dressing,i went 12 yrs of just panties,bed pants and t shirts,it was when we moved to the country the cd' n is coming on strong. my wife excepts this side of me,even if at times it gets to much and she has to reign me in..when i fully came out,my wife set fire to the closet i was hiding in and told me we were in this together,15 yrs later that agreement still holds. if your wife wants you to quit dressing then she needs to stop clothes shopping and just wear out what she has...a marriage is a two way st. not a one way st.,you both are in control,but some decide to go the one way st. where wifey is the only one in control and those marriages do not work period. so think about how your fooling yourself by becoming submissive.

[Katey888]

Kaley - good advice from Suzie here too... and I'm sorry to hear you're having a tough time - of course you have my best thoughts and wishes through all of this... :hugs:

However - this still all seems to be developing way too fast for comfort... so my advice remains the same but stronger - Slow it down! In EVERY way that you can...

If you could agree to put this all on hold for a period of time - give your wife a chance to absorb it and move on from the real shock that she is surely still experiencing... If you can do that: show her that you can commit to something that represents a sacrifice, then you might give her time and enough space...

If you find that you can't do that - well, that probably tells a story for you AND your wife...

If you can do it but it doesn't help her - you'll at least find out how you feel about voluntary abstention (and see above) and you may have all the time you want to yourself in the future...

If you do it and can find a compromise and accommodation somehow, then things may turn out OK...

I'm really sorry anyone has to go through this - I agree with Suzie that this has nothing to do with love (which is also such a variable experience in any case) but everything to do with individual acceptance to personalities and needs that are VERY alternative... :)

Think VERY SLOW - Think VERY LONG GAME - and think of sacrifice and what the alternative may mean for both of you... :thinking:

Katey x

[kimdl93]

I'm hoping you can accept the conversation itself as something like progress...although it certainly might not feel like it. She is still learning, still reacting from old, instilled notions. Although the quote may not be quite accurate, it reflects those mistaken beliefs. And as we see in many forms of public discourse, it's very hard for people to let go of mistaken beliefs, even in the face of overwhelming facts to the contrary. That doesn't mean it can't happen...but she will need a steady, but slow drip of real, accurate information to counter these imbedded notions. Good luck and keep at it.

[kaleyg]

Thank you EVERYONE for all the great thoughts. I don't have time right now to respond to them all. Katey -- I think I'm going to take your advice and slow things down. I'll suggest we "put it on hold" for a while.

[Suzie Petersen]

Kaley,

Katey's advise is definitely good. Take it slow and let it all sink in a bit.

- Suzie

[michelleddg]

"But you know, the darkest hour, is always, always just before the dawn" - David Crosby

Your wife needs to work through the five stages of grief: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. It will take time.

Here's a resource: http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/000617

Hugs, Michelle

[KimBarely]

TinaMc: Thank you for mentioning Alice in Gengerland. I just finished reading it after seeing your mention of it. I really enjoyed it except for the whole "arranged and agreed upon infidelity" bit in the last part of the book. That's not me at all but I appreciated the story otherwise.

[ReineD]

I'll suggest we "put it on hold" for a while.

Will this be difficult for you?

[Kate T]

Kaley

I don't know what or how you have told her. But I will say this. You CANNOT rationalise this out with her. That won't work. You have to lay it bare and tell her how you FEEL.

Also, if what she says hurts you then you MUST tell her. You have taken her into your absolute deepest confidence and lain yourself out for her. Yes it is a shock. Yes it is hard. But you must tell her if she is hurting you otherwise the wound that causes will fester. You would not do this deliberately to hurt her, you love her. Make sure she knows that and if she loves you deeply she will see that you have not done this TO her. And then she may be able to find it in her heart to support you.

The link Reine provided to Tri-ess is a great one for some basics. There are more in depth resources out there, it depends on how and what level of understanding she is used to dealing with issues.

[kaleyg]

Thanks, Adina. I did let her know I was feeling hurt, and she just came over and held me for a while. Reine -- it will be hard. I'm going to have some opportunities to dress in a few weeks, and I'd rather not sneak around anymore. But I don't want to rush it. She knows I'm talking to my mom about it a little.

[Suzie Petersen]

Kaley: PS -- something she said that made me think . . . am I "pretending" to be a woman when I dress? I never thought of it that way before. But I guess I am. That seems odd. If I'm just expressing my feminine side, then why, exactly, do I need to wear a bra? Is it is just for practical reasons--so that clothes will fit properly? Or is it part of trying to present as a woman to others (wanting to pass)? Maybe going the whole 9 yards is just a great way to "feel" feminine, since these things are all associated with femininity

That is one of the big stumbling blocks in the explanation phase. Part of what doesn't make sense, isn't it.
In search of an explanation, some tell their SO that the desire to dress is because they enjoy the feeling of the fabrics, the colors etc etc, but when the SO ask why we feel we need the bra, the breast forms, hip pads and the wig, it is clearly not just a matter of liking the feel of the fabric or the sensation of walking in high heels. Rather, it is a desire to emulate women we see around us, and, at least for some of us, a desire to emulate them as closely as possible to the point where others cant tell the difference.


Kaley: I think I'm going to take your advice and slow things down. I'll suggest we "put it on hold" for a while.

Yes, But, Maybe not ... It depends on how well you and your wife usually communicate and it depends on what you mean by Put it on hold.
My wife's survival mechanisms is to pretend things are not there. That's just how she deal with difficult things for better or worse. Over the years, she swung between tolerance and complete rejection of my dressing. Sometimes, after a negative reaction from her, I would "put it on hold" and not bring it up for a while in the hope that when she had time to think about it, she would maybe get back to me with another question, a comment, something. But thats not how she is, she parks it and forget about it! Thats how she copes. It would be "on hold" for weeks or months and I would finally break down and bring it up again and her reaction would be surprise and a "I thought we were done with that!".

So I would say, if you can, do slow down and give her time to let it settle, but agree on how you will work on this together. If she needs time, agree on what that means and how to know when to talk about it again. If you dont it could be difficult to move forward and you can end up very frustrated not knowing what to do next or when.
Also talk about what it means that "it" is "on hold". If you know you will be doing something, it is better not to lie about that but rather find something that is acceptable and then stick to that. It would also be good if she would agree to learn more about this and specifically what it means to you. It can be hard to talk about, especially if your wife gets upset or angry about it, so in that case, maybe agree to write to each other instead. Personal letters, not in a public forum on in txt messages. That gives you and her a chance to express your thoughts and feelings without being interrupted by motions from the other.

- Suzie

[char GG]

PS -- something she said that made me think . . . am I "pretending" to be a woman when I dress? I never thought of it that way before. But I guess I am

Hi Kaley,

I'm fairly new here and don't really know much about gender issues. I don't want to offend anyone but I feel I should say something here.

When my children were small, they dressed up as cats for Halloween. They crawled around on the floor meowing and hissing at each other. Then we, as parents say, "aren't you cute kitties". ----- They were "pretending" to be cats.

I don't know your wife or you but if I may make a comment here; your wife may be coping with your CDing by using the same type of scenario. My guess would be that she knows you wear women's clothes and are "pretending" to be a woman. She may not use the same words that you would use to describe how you feel but that maybe how she feels.

Keep up the good work at communicating.