GID Is An Equal Opportunity Purveyor

[SamanthaSometimes]

I’ve never given much, if any, thought about a beautiful and sexy woman having gender identity disorder. As a MtF CDer, most of my thoughts, and many others on this site, deal with all the problems and insecurities of wanting to look and feel as feminine as possible and deal with the ‘man in a dress’ issues as best they can. I can only dream of looking as good (really, I would ecstatic at just half) as some of the beautiful women I see or models I shoot. The best I can hope for is being accepted as I am when dressed and others knowing “I’m doing the best I can” to look good. But it never occurred to me that someone who is an icon of beautiful, successful and sexy as Miley Cyrus could also have the same issues as I. Her explanation of GID was explained on where she told Out magazine “Being a girl isn’t what I hate, it’s the box that I get put into”.

[Katey888]

Samantha - I can understand what you say in principle... similar to good looking guys wanting to go MtF I guess, but we all believe there are fewer FtMs around (for whatever reason...) but I've read the Out article and I don't understand where Ms Cyrus says that she has GID? :thinking:

Maybe I'm missing it and I'm happy to have it cleared up for me, but I read that she struggled with "traditional gender expectations", not that she has a gender identity issue - and that would be more of a feminist perspective of the expectations that all females have put on them by society, and perhaps particularly attractive ones more so. And that's the box she's talking about... I think..? :)

It does raise for me that ogre of a question about the relationship between how some of us dress (not the overtly sexual and private style of CDing; just those who dress for outings or events) and how appearing attractive - or at least trying to be! - connects with our need to express our feminine side? At least, that's what a lot of us say. Thinking about this, I should probably read more in the FtM side of things to get a perspective there, although having done so a while back, the idea of simulating beard shadow, padding to de-emphasise a natural waist and full hips and the proverbial sock to emulate a 'lunchbox' seems as alien as all of our tweaks and forms and postures would to FtMs or muggles...

So I'm not sure GID is entirely equal - and perhaps there is some deep and meaningful social, psychological or biological reason for that..?

If someone can set me straight on Miley though (metaphorically speaking) that would be a start... :D

Katey x

[Teresa]

I recall Madonna making similar comments a few years ago ! She hated the box she'd fallen into, despite it being gold lined ! She admitted of having feelings of wanting to be male so she could experience the other side of sexual intercourse ! OK she put it more bluntly than that but at the time I believe she had a real problem with it !

[ReineD]

If someone can set me straight on Miley though (metaphorically speaking) that would be a start... :D


Not sure how authoritative this is, it's a gossip mag, but this is apparently Miley' quote:


“I didn’t want to be a boy. I kind of wanted to be nothing. I don’t relate to what people would say defines a girl or a boy, and I think that’s what I had to understand: Being a girl isn’t what I hate, it’s the box that I get put into.”

Cyrus even took to Instagram to post the exact quote from her interview. She included the caption: “NOTHING can/will define me! Free to be EVERYTHING!!!!”

But then again, there is this:


Then again, it is Miley Cyrus. The entertainer has done many things to create shock and to have people talk about her. The Inquisitr previously reported about Miley’s constant nudity and her neon pink armpit hair.

I hope this is not a publicity stunt. This is the sort of thing that makes people not believe TGs.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2070730/miley-cyrus-genderqueer-singer-reveals-her-gender-identity-and-sexuality/

[SamanthaSometimes]

Katey: Perhaps you are correct and I was reading too much into her words and jumped to conclusions since she made her statement to Out magazine. Maybe more will come ‘Out’ about her feelings over time. BTW – all of your avatar pictures are just too cute!!!
Teresa: Putting things bluntly is no stranger to Modonna.
Reine: Yes, there is some chance that this is a publicity stunt and grab onto the coat-tails of other recent celebrity discussions of TG. I guess I’m just too gullible.
Thanks for the replies all.

[Katey888]

Not sure how authoritative this is, it's a gossip mag, but this is apparently Miley' quote:


Reine - unfortunately I think you might have taken us back a step... this being The Inquisitr's rewrite of the Cyrus interview. If you take the full text from the 'Out' interview, it reads like this and I think puts a different perspective on it:


Miley says she already spent a lot of time struggling with traditional gender expectations—and being resentful that she was a girl. “I didn’t want to be a boy,” she clarifies. “I kind of wanted to be nothing. I don’t relate to what people would say defines a girl or a boy, and I think that’s what I had to understand: Being a girl isn’t what I hate, it’s the box that I get put into.”

That resentment is more about gender inequality than identity, to me... but perhaps a classic case of one newstream making headlines out of a subtle reinterpretation of another's source material... I guess we have to wait for Ms Cyrus to set the record straight, or not (if you'll pardon the pun.. ) but I don't think she can be held to account for tabloid journalism repurposing her interview comments and drawing assumptions from the new spin. The original article is much more about her feelings towards homelessness, homophobia and the violence against and suicide of, young TG people.

The original article (from OUT - which looks a reasonable if fashionable piece of media) is here (http://www.out.com/music/2015/5/05/exclusive-miley-cyrus-launches-anti-homelessness-pro-lgbt-happy-hippie-foundation)

And thanks for raising the issue Samantha - I have a feeling Ms Cyrus would make quite a passable young man, as it happens... ;)

Katey x

[Kate Simmons]

A good F T M friend of mine who used to post here was exactly that. I had totally accepted him as himself. Once and only once did he post pics of "her" when "she" went to secretarial school. Gorgeous but evidently not to herself, so therefore the transition. This is why I accept my friends for who they are as individuals as everything else is chosen "window dressing". :)

[PaulaQ]

Y'all think too binary. Perhaps she feels neither male nor female. However, feeling trapped by people's expectations of her gender is certainly a possibility.

I know Mara Keisling from the NCTE is thrilled with her support, and I doubt either Joan Jett or Laura Jane Grace would have a thing to do with her if they thought this was a stunt. I have my doubts her Dad is thrilled either...

[sometimes_miss]

Y'all think too binary. Perhaps she feels neither male nor female. However, feeling trapped by people's expectations of her gender is certainly a possibility.

^this. In our enjoyment of delving into female attire/lifestyles on occasion, we can tend to forget that on a daily basis, women can get tired of their side of life too. Sure, some of it is always going to be 'the grass is greener on the other side of the fence', but there's no way to really experience all that in real life; and younger women especially, see men's lives as easier and simpler than their own. But there's no way for them to ever, really know (And before I get any women responding here about knowing what it's like to be a guy, you can't tell me until you've been drafted, dumped halfway around the world into a 100 degree, 100% humidity climate filled with flies, and surrounded with people shooting at you).

[Tina_gm]

Just as men can get real tired of shaving their face everyday, women too can get tired of shaving their legs, putting on make up, hair done right etc etc. My wife would never trade the woman card by any means, but she does have envy of how I can roll out of bed, throw some clothes on and be ready for the day. I of course envy how she can doll herself up and do her hair, makeup and all. She was contemplating heels or flats recently and I was thinking to myself, I wish I had that opportunity to ponder such a thing... ( It wouldn't have taken much time to pick heels lol) but most on here know what I am saying. I do suppose that when it isn't an issue, on a certain day I might choose differently.....

I am at least somewhat suspicious of M. Cyrus. I do believe though that there is some truth to it all, but yes, she does like to draw attention to herself in just about any way possible. Time will tell if she is legitimate or if she is just a young girl out to create shock and awe for attention.

[Kate T]

I agree with Katie. She doesn't seem to be nor ever says she has "GID". What she is is pissed off about the fact that everyone wants to box her into a stereotype. Yes, frankly I think this is more common for girls / women than boys / men. No, they don't have GID or GD, what they have is discrimination.

On the flip side there are plenty of stunning and attractive women who would rather be men / do have true GD. The numbers are probably 50/50 split in the real world, it is just on these forums we are heavily biased in the representation of MTF for a variety of reasons.

[ReineD]

No, they don't have GID or GD, what they have is discrimination.

Exactly. I was a bit like Miley when I was that age. In fact I was rather militant for the 1970s, for example I would refuse to allow men to open the door for me.

But I got past my staunch Burn-All-The-Bras and I-Am-Woman attitudes as I aged, when I realized that being a woman does not limit me in any way. It's nice to have doors opened for me, and I open doors for both men and women to return the favor. Hopefully Miley will grow up to realize that being a woman does not mean that she has to box herself in and she needn't allow others to box her in either.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I agree with adina that the numbers are probably 50/50. Because women wearing traditionally male clothing is so normal and accepted now, lots of FtMs can wear male clothing and express male characteristics very much under the radar whereas we get noticed much more easily.

[PaulaQ]

younger women especially, see men's lives as easier and simpler than their own. But there's no way for them to ever, really know (And before I get any women responding here about knowing what it's like to be a guy, you can't tell me until you've been drafted, dumped halfway around the world into a 100 degree, 100% humidity climate filled with flies, and surrounded with people shooting at you).

<----- Well, there exist women who have spent a significant part of their lives living as men, so some of us probably have some inkling of what it's like on the other side of the fence!

I was sort of surprised by it yesterday - mainly that it didn't trigger my boyfriend, but I found myself talking to him about the parts of our past relationships with our wives that we hated - "the guy stuff." (Home owner projects, endless trips to the hardware store, etc.) The worst thing, though, from both of our perspectives, was the horrible experience of being with a woman who had been socialized to feel powerless (a common thing, since society really wants us like that), coupled with a massive sense of entitlement on their part. The combination of those two is common and pernicious.

Of course neither of those things compares to all the crap women put up with from men. We didn't talk about that side of it, however - I didn't bring it up because being stuck in the car for 3 hours with an annoyed and petulant man is not a smart move!

Also, it didn't really seem an appropriate topic, since the point of the trip was to deal with my embittered, angry, powerless feeling and yet highly entitled ex-wife, since we both now live in little tiny spaces we rent with few material possessions, while our exes hang on to homes we worked our entire lives to attain for them.

[Michelle789]

and younger women especially, see men's lives as easier and simpler than their own. But there's no way for them to ever, really know (And before I get any women responding here about knowing what it's like to be a guy, you can't tell me until you've been drafted, dumped halfway around the world into a 100 degree, 100% humidity climate filled with flies, and surrounded with people shooting at you).

Everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side. Women think men have it easier, and men think women have it easier. We often think how things were much nicer in the "good old days." Many Americans might sometimes think that life is better in a third world country and that they better "family values", while people in third world countries may envy the (illusion of) "freedom" we have in the USA.

The hardships that men and women face are often like living in California vs every else. Most places deal with constant horrible weather - rain, snow for 4-6 months out of the year, thunderstorms for 4-6 months out of the year, extreme cold, extreme heat and humidity. In California, we have very little weather. It rains rarely, and we do get our extreme heat but it's still WAY more tolerable than it is in most other places, and mostly we just get days where it looks like it's going to rain but it never does. From living in both the east coast and west coast, life is FAR easier in California. We're not constantly worrying about getting struck by lightning, having to halt all activities when a thunderstorm hits, shoveling our cars out of snow, dressing for extreme cold and rain. We're essentially spoiled with the weather. However, when the big earthquake happens, we'll be cleaning up a big mess and people will die that other places aren't worrying about. Your analogy of getting drafted into war is analogous to the big earthquake happening in California. The lack of weather in California compared to other places is analogous to male privilege. The "sunshine tax" which is not really a tax but an expression for how expensive it is to live in California is analogous to male responsibility.





Just as men can get real tired of shaving their face everyday, women too can get tired of shaving their legs, putting on make up, hair done right etc etc.

Try being a transwoman who is in early transition and hasn't finished hair removal. Imagine having to shave your face AND legs every day. Actually I use an epilator on my arms and legs, so I do it about once a week, but it's an hour of drudge work, but an hour that's totally worth it.


My wife would never trade the woman card by any means

I don't think most women would trade their woman card, and most men wouldn't trade their man card.


but she does have envy of how I can roll out of bed, throw some clothes on and be ready for the day. I of course envy how she can doll herself up and do her hair, makeup and all.

The real problem here, for both genders, are the rigid expectations placed on both genders. Women the option to get all dolled up and do makeup, hair, nails, but they're expected to do that and to go through a long and grueling routine every morning. Men have the option to just roll out of bed, throw on a t-shirt and jeans and walk out the door, but they don't have the option to get all dolled up and do hair, nails, makeup.

Women might feel that men get to roll out of bed, and men might feel that women get to do hair, makeup, and nails. Women feel that they don't get to just roll out of bed, and men feel that they don't get to do hair, makeup, nails.

We sadly live in a world which forces us to extremes. People often work, but have no free time, or have no job and an abundance of free time, but can't pay their bills. Sad choices we have in life.

We even sometimes forget that spring and fall exist. We often focus on how it gets so hot in the summer and so cold in the winter, but often forget about the few months of mild weather.

So as we are in the midst of spring, enjoying the mild weather and a respite from summer and winter, let's remember that. It's mid-May, it's the heart of spring. Let's embrace the beauty and non-binary-ness of the season we're in now, as the hot summer months are just around the corner.

Wouldn't it be our dream to live in a world where both men and women had the option to either just roll out of bed and throw on jeans and t-shirt, and where both men and women had the option to get all dolled up, do makeup, hair, nails, heels.

Binaries are forced onto us because they're simpler. It's easier to remember two extremes rather than a rainbow of possibilities. It's sadly easier for the ruling class to manage the masses using simple binaries, and it's easier for the average person to make choices on how to treat people according to simple binaries.



What she is is pissed off about the fact that everyone wants to box her into a stereotype.

Sadly we're forced into binary expectations because it's simpler for people to manage and understand. Most people have a difficult time grasping abstract concepts.

I've personally known women who wished they were men because of the expectations placed on women.

Everyone sometimes thinks the grass is greener on the other side, and everyone might be curious to know what it's like to be the other sex. Even non-CDing, non-TS, non-TG men might have experimented with nail polish or heels when they were younger. What makes someone have GD is persistence and consistency. Someone with GD might

Persistently and consistently throughout their life identify with the opposite sex, think they're the opposite sex, or wish to be the opposite sex.

Persistently and consistently partake in some form of cross-gender expression, even if it's privately wearing panties.

Persistently and consistently hate their sex features. Men hating their penis, body hair, facial hair, male shaped body/face, testosterone poisoned male voice, or wishing for breasts or a vagina. Women hating breasts and vagina, and wishing to have a penis, beard, and body hair. Women hating their soft, feminine features and higher pitched female voice.

For someone with GD, it's more than a phase, passing curiosity, or occasional grass is greener on the other side. A man who hates that men aren't allowed to express feelings but has never worn women's clothes is probably just thinking the grass is greener on the other side. A man who persistently wants to and tries make himself look like a woman probably has GD. A man who wears women's clothes persistently is probably a CDer, but when there are persistently other things present such as persistently hating facial or body hair, or identifying as a woman, is probably GD.


On the flip side there are plenty of stunning and attractive women who would rather be men / do have true GD.

There are beautiful feminine women who have GD, and there are butch or tomboyish women who have GD. There are masculine alpha males who have GD, and there are beta males, nerdy males, and feminine males who have GD. You can never tell who has GD and who doesn't.

[donnalee]

We may be talking apples & oranges here. I think the quote Ms. Cyrus gave had more to do with societal stereotypes than anything else; "girls do this, not that", etc. These roles have weakened considerably since I grew up, but the stereotypes are still there, just not as deeply held as they once were and I can certainly see where those expectations can be burdensome and restraining to her. The thing about them is that there is no force of law behind them and one is free to not go by them. throughout history there have been women who did not adhere to them They have been few and far between; it takes a lot of courage to do what they did, but they have done it and been successful at it .

[Amy Fakley]

Well ... I've gotta say ... perhaps it's my privilege showing through or whatever, but if Miley Cyrus has been crammed into any kind of box, it's either the size of the entire Earth, or its entirely of her own imagining.

Sorry. That's just how it is. She has the money and power to do literally any damn thing in this world she wants to do, and has done so in very public ways many times. Some would say she, her parents and other handlers, have fabricated an entire career, not based on talent, but based entirely on literally doing any damn thing she wants on stage, with cameras rolling.

Unless she's making the case that she HAD to be an outrageous sexual provocateur, in order to have a career in the entertainment industry. In which case she's only half right ... lacking any other marketable talent, that might have been true for others, but not true for her. She was already Disney's Hannah Montana, and auto tune was already picking up the slack in the technical ability arena. She could have done anything, but she chose this.

We did not choose to have GID from a menu of other headline-worthy options.

If Miley wants to do good in the world and have a cause, I applaud her. That's a good thing, but it's a little hard for me to take this particular thing she's saying seriously.