Are We Too Far Over the Edge?

[Lacy PJs]

I didn't know how to title this post; I think a title should reflect the post's contents. I hope my chosen words accurately reflect what I'm trying to ask. Basically, why is it that we as a group tend to be pushing the envelope a little farther than GGs?

If you take a look at the photos posted here and those on sites like Flickr & Pinterest, you will notice that the majority of them go beyond what is usually seen in public. Heels are higher, there's more hair, make-up is heavier and the hemlines are definitely higher. I wonder if this is because we are trying to prove a point or what's behind this.

Don't misunderstand; I'm not saying that everyone fits into this category but when I looked at "crossdressers" on Pinterest, if I ruled out obvious costumes (maids, etc) and obviously long gowns (wedding, etc), I'd have to say that most of the hem lines fell at mid thigh or higher. On the one hand, there are numerous posts here about how we can better blend in or "pass," but on the other hand, we post pictures that would seem to draw additional attention to ourselves.

I'm just wondering if our pushing the envelope is actually to our disadvantage when we try to just be "part of the crowd."

Lacy PJs

[Alex!]

An excellent question!

Crossdressing seems to unfold in stages, and perhaps threaded throughout is our ideal archetype, or "what turns us on about women generally." In my experience, I went through stages, and it sounds like many follow a similar path.

1. The first closeted stage was something typically uber-feminine (but from a male perspective; that is, a distorted or stereotypical view of women), ranging from a teenager look to sissy to hooker. This was a voracious, exciting, clumsy time. Often, I made do with what I had or could acquire - expensive stuff is out of reach. This was me from age 10 to about age 17.

2. The second closeted stage is probably brought on by a desire to step up the game or to change course due to boredom, to try something new. Here, I tried new outfits and relished the diversity of looks and ideas. I was more willing to spend some scratch for stuff. My first set of boobs was acquired, for instance - no more balloons! For me this was age 24 to age 36 (I never dressed in the military - no effing way)

3. The third stage is refinement, when I started to find my "comfort zone", even an identity. At this point, stepping out and spending a bit more tend to be in order. I explored more casual looks and other things that were more likely to make me blend in if going out. For me this happened in April 2006, when I was about 37.

4. Maybe there is a stage 4 - when I really studied everyday outfits, mannerisms, voice and so forth. For me, this is both interesting and useful for enabling a full experience while going out in public, but also it represents an appreciation for the average woman. I suppose this happened for me a couple of years ago. For instance, I want to go out as a girl, but not attract undue attention. I'd love to pass as a woman, but I know this is not likely. So, I want to pass as a dignified person, one who is polite and dressed well. Who cares if I am a man in women's clothing, as long as I look good doing it :)

Throughout this process, though, certain things are constant or intriguing. Each person has a different set of constants, or "threads". I imagine these are the result of things we saw as young boys and men, things we found particularly attractive or erotic. Those elements carry through all the stages I mentioned above, I believe. For me, that was women of refined character. I grew up in Western European countries during the 1970s, and lots of women wore dresses and such. For instance, I recall quite vividly an attractive woman adjusting here stocking straps on a train. That event definitely appealed to me both as a heterosexual male and as a closet crossdresser! Also, I was attracted to the so-called business look, which I mostly saw on TV and film. Of course, I was a teen in the 80s, and that was just crazy makeup and fashion time - it left a mark on me.

But here's another thought: I wear jeans and shorts and men's suits all the time. When en femme, I get pleasure from wearing, feeling, and looking much differently, so I wear skirts and pumps and hosiery and all that. Indeed, my objective is to achieve a look that is dramatically different than my male self. I want to retain my essence, of course (because I like who I am), but superficially I want to remove ALL trace of maleness.

Does any of this make sense? I just sort of barfed it out :D

[pamela7]

Hi LacyPJ's,

There's a difference between home-closet-dressing and going out. Then there are CD party events where blending is not part of the game. Then there's blending.

I see one big aspect of CD-ing as a form of "hide and seek", where really we're trying to be found out, and pushing the envelope is needed given how self-absorbed the "seekers" are. Women notice us more than men imho.

We also tend to take photos is ourselves in our more "out there" outfits, and not bother with our blend-wear.

xxx

[jenni_xx]

Yes, cd's are too far over the edge.

Which is something that is simply bound to happen. Because we have to accommodate. See a woman wearing 3 inch heels, a cd will want to wear 4 inch heels.

GG's have no envelope to push. CD's however do. We have to go one step further, make more effort, just in the hope of appearing feminine.

[Suzie Petersen]

I think a majority of the CD group aim to emulate the stereotypical ultimate woman, whatever that might mean to the individual. We go for things that are very feminine, clothes, makeup and accessories which we find to make a woman attractive.
Of course, sometimes, when the goal is to blend or "pass" or be invisible, we "dress down" and try to not stand out, but time after time you read about CD'ers who "dressed down" to go out and just blend in and yet they are still in 3" heels and skirts or dresses where by far most of the GG's in that same setting will be in jeans and flats.

So to answer your question, I think it is definitely to our disadvantage, if the goal is to not be noticed. But if the goal is to feel good and express a sense of style and femininity, then it might be better to not expect to be invisible and just aim for that "wow" effect instead!

I dont mind so much if people notice, if the reaction is along the lines of "I think that was a guy!! Wow he looked gorgeous!".

- Suzie

[RachelsMantra]

I think Alex! is right that this often comes in stages. When I first started buying clothes online I would only buy skimpy skin-tight cocktail dresses. This was mainly because when I first started I never dreamed of going out in public. It was a private, sexual thing and I just loved feeling sexy in tight, short dresses and huge heels. But now that I'm older and more experienced with CDing I now have a very definite desire to acquire a "normal" GG wardrobe so that I can go out in public and not stand out. Im sure I will always stand out to some extent due to my broad shoulders and muscular build but I can't help that. What I can help is looking like I've made some effort to develop a fashion sense that is multipurpose and compatible with just going to the grocery store or walking my dog around the block as opposed to going out to the clubs.

[natcrys]

Let me start that whenever I've seen crossdressers outside on the streets, walking through the shopping malls and eating in restaurants.. I've never seen them dressed in an over-the-top fashion (now.. CD-parties.. that's something else!)

Considering that when looking at any crowd or group.. most of them are going to be dressed according to some sort of standard/average. I am from a technical scientific engineering background.. and most of the guys (and couple of girls) at my workplace dress very casually.

Any type of formal wear... suit.. tie.. shoes of the non-sneaker variety... and you will stand out. And yes.. anyone dressed like I would in Tassia-mode would also stand out.

However, if I look at another group of my friends (mostly female and fashion conscious).. most of my outfits would definitely not stand out. Lots of women with 4 inch heels.. and make-up that consists of more than just a bit of lip-gloss. It just depends on which group you're comparing the outfits/make-up/mannerisms/etc. to.

Now, I'm a crossdresser with a love for short skirts/dresses and high heels and make-up. No denying that! :)

Sure, sometimes I like to blend in (like for a trip to the museum).. and thus I will go for a jeans/top/boots outfit. But most times, I don't necessarily want to be "part of the crowd".

I want to dress in a way that makes me feel feminine and in some cities/villages/countries.. that will probably make me stand out a bit.

Granted, that full leather outfit I posted today.. that's not something you see anywhere these days. ;)

[Erica Marie]

If others tgs are anything like myself. In my earlier stages I also wore the tighter, shorter outfits. I took multiple pictures and posted them looking for others objective remarks. As I try to refine my female appearance and attempt to blend in as much as possible, the camera gets set aside and I just want to be myself. Maybe that is why all the postings you see are as you described.

[Dianne S]

I used to dress like that because it was exciting. Nowadays, I'm as likely to be in jeans and t-shirt as in a dress (I'm living as a woman 24x7).

Maybe it's because women get the "sexy dresses and fancy shoes" phase out of their systems as girls or adolescents (assuming they even ever have an interest in it), whereas we CDers experience it later in life. Also, most CDers want to dress definitively feminine rather than androgynously so they go for the extremes.

[S. Lisa Smith]

Alex! you are spot on!!!!!!

[Kate Simmons]

I dunno, I'm not trying to "prove" anything, just have fun with it. The condition is there, so why not make it work for me I figure.:battingeyelashes::)

[franlee]

Alex! you are spot on!!!!!!
That is a well written and straight forward explanation, I agree.

[Lori Kurtz]

When I was actively dressing up, I'll be the first to admit, I was a pretty trashy-looking woman. High heels, short skirts or very tight pants, tight tops to show off what I had to offer. I didn't go out all that much, but when I did, I delighted in being noticed--from a distance, and usually at night. And I always had an escape route readily available. Now, more than three decades later, I could never could get away with that kind of a look. Either I'd be read instantly, or I'd look like a pretty pathetic old lady trying to look hot. So now I content myself with memories and fantasies.

[kimdl93]

I'm not a big fan of the collective we. Nor do I think that a survey based on picture posts is necessarily representative of the whole. It may be that frequent picture posters are somewhat more inclined towards provocative style than those who do not post pics of themselves.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Some of us dress in a certain way, whatever it may be, because it tickles our own personal fancy. GGs (usually) don't do that, they dress to the dictates of current fashion,what others expect of them, and practicality. It is not really surprising that (most) GGs and (some) TVs dress differently, because we wear what we wear for different reasons.

[Erika Lyne]

Hi Lacy,

I was thinking the same thing recently. I'm fairly new to the site, less than a year, but I tend to dress more conservatively than most of the pics here. Now, that is NOT a criticism by any means. However, in viewing the pics and thinking a similar thought I came to a similar conclusion as Alex!'s beautiful, self proclaimed "barf" reply, with one major exception. I think she may have grazed upon what I was thinking and observing. Many of the people here who CD tend to do so in the genre of clothing that was fashionable for the young teen girls at the time of their own puberty; 60's or 80's super short skirts, 70's busy prints and synthetic fabrics and the BIG hair and heavy makeup of the late 80's, rompers in the 80's and again in the 90's (& again now) as a few examples. Ok, so we get that. We tend to try to emulate each of our own "woman on the train adjusting her stocking straps." During puberty we were very impressionable and these images and ideal did just that, formed an impression on us. Now, "Why do women our own ages not dress like this any more?" is a big question. I think the answer here is that the women have moved on emotionally. "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt to prove it." mentality may have set in. Besides, women tend to wear more comfortable clothing in their day-to-day lives. For example, black leggings are everywhere, why? Because black goes with everything and the leggings are incredibly comfortable. If you've ever worn heels all day for a few days straight, it tends to wear on you. I do enjoy my heels but I get it that flats are a good change for comfort's sake. The difference is, I HAVE TO wear flat shoes in guy-mode EVERY STINKING day, no options. So, when I get the option in girl-mode to wear heels, you KNOW that I am going to do it. My only difference is that I've "out grown" the 6" heels (except one really cute pair) & choose heels in the 3-4" range. Ok, why so high? Many women tend to aim for the 2-3" range. Well, I try to emulate the image. Applying scale to the picture, a 2-3" heel looks a helluva lot taller on a 5'2" woman than a 5'10" CDer. Therefore, the longer leg and larger size 11-12 foot looks quite similar in 4" vs a size 6-7 foot in a 3" heel.

Ok, now to MY skirts and dresses. Again, I tend to dress more conservatively and I like the hem line to be above the knee but below the finger tip. I do have a few playful extra short skirts but they tend to stay away, more as a momento of younger days, "Been there, done that, got the micro skirt to prove it." My next issue with dresses in particular is that my torso is a bit long, even for a man my height. This causes hem lines to fall a lot higher than the manufacturer intended. They just seem shorter because the waist line ends up higher than it was supposed to be. (Look, a sheath dress shouldn't look like it has a princess waist line.)

We as part time, closeted or partially out CDers may not have grown out of the mini skirts like our cis-female counterparts have because we were not allowed to find our comfort zone during our impressionable years. I have a daughter who is now exploring her own image and honestly, I've shown her a few "over the top" Drag Queens and say that she is starting to dress like these guys. (Using the theatrical Drag Queen as my reference. These performers deliberately try NOT to blend but rather hyper exagerate a feminine trait. And again, not a criticism to any Drag Queens but women do not dress like they are going on stage daily.)

That's my barf.

Hugs,
-E

[ErikaS]

Cheer/ Thanks Erika very inspiring at least for me.

Hugs
Erika

[NicoleScott]

I agree with Kim about the collective we. We are individuals with different drives, styles, tastes, preferences, objectives, etc. So there is no standard, no right or wrong way to crossdress.
To answer the question, no. I love over-the-top everything. The over-the-topper, the better. I am just the right amount of over the top (over the edge, as the OP described it) as I want to be.

[OCCarly]

At 5 foot 7.5? I wear five inch heels so I can know what it feels like to be six feet tall!

[docrobbysherry]

I agree with, Kim. Speak for yourself, Alex and everyone else. As will I.

There r TS's and CD's. I'm a CD. I don't enjoy going out in vanilla land dressed or dressing to blend. (Which I put it in the same category as scrubbing our hardwood floors.:doh:).

I usually dress at home just for me. But, if it's an event? I want to pick an outfit/costume that looks good. Maybe sexy or even hot! I don't but Sherry likes to be noticed!:battingeyelashes:
It's like Kate says. I dress to have fun!

I dunno, I'm not trying to "prove" anything, just have fun with it. The condition is there, so why not make it work for me I figure.:battingeyelashes::)

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

I must be one of the oddballs here. Even in my 20s I didn't go for a super sexy, over the top look. I much preferred sophisticated style, which wasn't easy on no budget. I owned only one mini skirt that I think I only wore out twice. The rest was elegant dresses or casual wear. Even today my tastes run more along the lines of Ann Taylor. But to each her own. I do agree with the sentiment that we dress to emulate the style we are most attracted to.

[Teresa]

Lacy,
Your comments about being OTT are more valid today, so many women dress casual but in trousers, with low heels,wedges or flats .
People from my generation have seen the changes and dressing smart then meant a nice skirt and blouse, or catching the tail end of the sixties mini skirts/dresses and much more colour . Fitting in or blending then meant some really pretty outfits ! Fashion today caters for the modern women but sometimes I feel it's letting women down , they follow the trend more than men and at the moment the feminine look has gone compared with a few short years ago .To copy some outfits today almost suggests we stay in drab mode !

[ReineD]

To the OP, I just went on Pinterest and you are correct! Lots of short skirts, leg shots, tight clothes, bigger hair, more makeup ...



Maybe it's because women get the "sexy dresses and fancy shoes" phase out of their systems as girls or adolescents (assuming they even ever have an interest in it), whereas we CDers experience it later in life.

It's true that you'll generally find shorter dresses and higher heels on younger women than, say, (ahem) women my age. lol.

There's a reason for this. Younger women are looking for mates!! We know how to dress in order to attract males. The biggest complaint among husbands is, their wives don't make themselves up like they used to. But do younger women, who are going out where there are NO males (absolutely none), dress like this? No! They'll wear their jeans and Tshirts.

I just don't believe that CDers have the same motive for dressing as GGs do, unless they're wanting men to be attracted to them? As Seinfeld said, "there's nothing wrong with that!". But then they shouldn't tell themselves they are straight ... unless of course the thrill is in being admired as a woman while at the same time having no attraction to the male? Confusing, because they don't dress that way to attract women.

Sherry, my SO is not TS either but she dresses to blend, albeit in a more fashionable manner than most of the women in our area ... except when we go to our TG group meetings. Then my SO will wear the shorter things with higher heels and I know that she is not interested in attracting the other CDs/TSs there. Very confusing.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Fashion today caters for the modern women but sometimes I feel it's letting women down , they follow the trend more than men and at the moment the feminine look has gone compared with a few short years ago .To copy some outfits today almost suggests we stay in drab mode !

I have to disagree somewhat Teresa. It may be different in the UK, but I still see plenty of young women, especially college-age, that know how to put together a great style. Often it is a reflection of class standing (but when has that ever not been the case). What I think we are seeing with the widening income gap is an increase in the proportion of women who just don't have the resources to put much style into their appearance.

[Marcelle]

Hi Lacy,

I am inclined to agree with most here that for some "dressing" comes in stages and as one progresses from "closet" to going out their individual style refines. That is not to say that some who are out in the public venue do not wear shorter skirts and heels but then again that is their sense of style the same as any GG who may decide to dress that way. I have never been a "sexy dresser" (not my thing) and tend to gravitate to jeans and tops with the occasional dress thrown in depending on what I am doing (e.g., meeting some of my GG friends for lunch during the work week where most will be in dresses in or skirts). However, in the end, fashion is fashion and it perception is perception irrespective if it is someone looking at an older GG or CD thinking that skirt is way too short for her someone her age or now that looks good on her.

Hugs

Isha

[Erika Lyne]

...on Pinterest and you are correct! Lots of short skirts, leg shots, tight clothes, bigger hair, more makeup ...

It's true that you'll generally find shorter dresses and higher heels on younger women than, say, (ahem) women my age. lol.

There's a reason for this. Younger women are looking for mates!!
...the thrill is in being admired as a woman while at the same time having no attraction to the male...

---
But do younger women, who are going out where there are NO males (absolutely none), dress like this? No! They'll wear their jeans and Tshirts.

Sherry, my SO is not TS either but she dresses to blend, albeit in a more fashionable manner than most of the women in our area ... except when we go to our TG group meetings. Then my SO will wear the shorter things with higher heels and I know that she is not interested in attracting the other CDs/TSs there.

Very confusing.

Thanks for another wonderful GG POV Contribution Reine. You've always shed light on what many of us are missing.

Hmmm...this time I think you might have missed the forest looking at the trees. I dissected your post a bit and found an interesting attribute or two.

First, the way that people feel good about themselves is usually the way they want to be viewed. From my observations, women who have a bit more weight on the bottom half tend not to wear shorter short or skirts. They don't seem comfortable showing that part off. Women who are more self conscious of their breasts tend to wear higher neck lines. Neither of these examples is a bad thing. Men, in general, just don't care as much about their appearances. So, when we CDers dress up, just as when women dress, we dress to be emotionally comfortable with ourselves and for many of us that means high hem lines and higher heels. I'm sure if we were to dress daily the leangth of the skirts would get longer and discomfort with long term use of super high heels would have a greater influence on our wardrobe selection. However, reading many posts of Post Op TS here, I don't think we would match a cis-woman's wardrobe until we were accepted as a woman. By this I mean, my closet is stuffed with over 120 dresses and skirts. I only have three pairs of women's pants and two pairs of women's jeans. I just about always wear a dress or skirt when presenting as female. I do believe that if I were accepted as a woman then my wardrobe would reflect an even more conservative, blendable and parallel style to other GGs, like yourself. Now, I personally prefer at my age and comfort level, more conservative clothing and have only old (late teens and early twenties) pics of me in super short skirts but I did have a time when that was right for me, I out grew it. I've posted a few pics here of my style wardrobe. Yes, my wardrobe is atypical of the Pintrest crowd but like many GGs, I had that time when I was younger and moved on.

Second, as a comparative--not a criticism, when you go to a wedding or other formal/semi formal function, are you more apt to wear a dress and makeup then say if you were going to the movies with friends? Well, we don't have many of those events in our lives. I'm sure the reason Sherry hikes up the skirt and straps on the skyscraper heels at the CD support group is similar to the same reason you'd put on that beautiful dress and break out the makeup kit again for you friends' wedding. It is an acceptable venue to dress as such, encouraged to do so even. It is just as you stated, this is our form of when "younger women aregoing out where there are NO males, it is our form of 'jeans and Tshirts.'" We are not trying to attract other members as mates but rather be comfortable in our own skin, blend with the group that we are with and dress in an appropriate and acceptable manner for the venue, just like you in a dress at a wedding.

Third, as we both can agree, myself and your SO are NOT looking for mates. We are quite happy where we are in our relationships but I know I tend to dress the way that I wish my wife would dress more often than she does. Yes, she landed her mate. Yes, the Honeymoon stage has passed but why does a woman's wardrobe have to turn androgynous after having reached her personal goals. I find that I'm more apt to present in a more masculine male mode if she is presenting less androgynous. For example, I will wear a shirt and tie if she wears a dress out to dinner. She usually chooses pants, so... No tie for me. It is like Barbara Streisand said, "You don't bring me flowers anymore." It goes both ways.

I really love your posts, Reiene. The heart felt support you give here is paramount. I hope my reply is met with a positive feeling. You are always a shining star here and you've helped my wife by shedding light on both of your similar situation. I am trying to return that wonderful favor.

Thanks,
-Erika

[Dianne S]

But do younger women, who are going out where there are NO males (absolutely none), dress like this? No! They'll wear their jeans and Tshirts.

It depends on the woman. My daughter, for example, who is 21, is quite stylish and generally wears skirts or dresses even when she's only going out with her girlfriends. Admittedly, she tends to wear less revealing clothes than when she has a date, but her style is usually quite consistent.

[Alex!]

It occurs to me that there is another aspect. In male mode I am average in appearance and rarely attract a woman's attention. But dressed as Alex, I get noticed by both men and women, in a good way. I feel sexier, even though I have no desire to attract men as mates. To me, this suggests a sort of confidence or power that can feel good and can be used if necessary. It is nice to be noticed as physically attractive, and one doesn't have to be searching for mates to look sexy. Indeed, my female friends and past girlfriends have mentioned to me on several occasions that dressing sexy makes them feel better about themselves, and wished that doing so wasn't interpreted as being "on the market".

[ShayLeigh Dominique]

As a newbie, and as someone making up for lost time, I had my first outing today (26May15). I don't know about everyone else, but I wasn't dressed to the nines, not even sure I was dressed to the threes. I put on my makeup, very subtle and subdued, put on a corset (for curves, but I lost some weight and need a smaller size now), a white mid calf skirt, and a grey shark tooth top. I wore lace ankle socks and trainers (tennis/running shoes). Then, after finding the lipstick I had was getting lost in my skin tone I WALKED TO THE NEAREST DRUG STORE!
Sorry for yelling, but it was a wonderful feeling to go out into the wide world (all 200 yards of it) as ShayLeigh. I spent 15 minutes looking for lipstick and a couple other makeup essentials I did not have, and then I assisted by a lovely young lady who never gave the slightest indication that I was in any way wrong or out of place. Not even when after I commented about "hoping I had the right color lipstick". In fact, she told me about the stores makeup return policy! No snigger. No snide remarks (in my earshot). No looks askance... I felt "acceptable".

I guess I was pushing the envelope, after a fashion. But I think it was a more personal one than a "if GGS dress to the nines then I have to hit at least 18!"
I don't think I'm competing with the GGs, just looking to have a little place to call "myself" which borders/crosses into GG territory.

Oh and by the by, it has been said here before, confidence is everything. If you believe it, you can sell it.

[ReineD]

So, when we CDers dress up, just as when women dress, we dress to be emotionally comfortable with ourselves and for many of us that means high hem lines and higher heels.

Exactly. But why this is emotionally comfortable is the million dollar question.



I just about always wear a dress or skirt when presenting as female. I do believe that if I were accepted as a woman then my wardrobe would reflect an even more conservative, blendable and parallel style to other GGs, like yourself.

Are you sure about that? When I compare myself with my SO, I honestly think that she enjoys the whole feminine mystique more than I do, certainly in terms of being attracted to women (because I'm not attracted to women in any way). And I know that the clothes are more of a priority for her than they are for me. Is this because he is male? Maybe. Men are more visual and they do appreciate a woman's looks more than we women do.



Second, as a comparative--not a criticism, when you go to a wedding or other formal/semi formal function, are you more apt to wear a dress and makeup then say if you were going to the movies with friends? Well, we don't have many of those events in our lives. ... It is just as you stated, this is our form of when "younger women aregoing out where there are NO males, it is our form of 'jeans and Tshirts.'" We are not trying to attract other members as mates but rather be comfortable in our own skin, blend with the group that we are with and dress in an appropriate and acceptable manner for the venue, just like you in a dress at a wedding.

I see your point, but think of this thread's topic. The CDers on Pinterest aren't dressing to blend in with formal functions, or (realistic) office wear, or going to the opera or a cocktail party, that is IF they take on the role of a woman who is not looking for partners. By this I mean that women who are not looking for partners do not dress like the CDers on Pinterest when they dress up, they do Not dress any way near to that degree. These CDers are dressing in one way and one way only, and this is to appear as sexy as possible to a male, just like a woman does who is looking.



We are quite happy where we are in our relationships but I know I tend to dress the way that I wish my wife would dress more often than she does. Yes, she landed her mate. Yes, the Honeymoon stage has passed but why does a woman's wardrobe have to turn androgynous after having reached her personal goals.

Two things here:

So what you are saying is that CDers' styles are governed by their male hormones? As males they love to look at beautiful females and this is the look they want to emulate?

Also, I want to propose something rather drastic, but that is true. In our natural states we are indeed in CDers words, "more androgynous" than the Victorias Secret models (I'm comparing us to the CDers I saw on Pinterest). Actually it's not that our natural states are androgynous, we are after all 100% women and not somewhere in between men and women, but it is rather the runway models or the media ideal of femininity that is hyper feminine, making it look as if the way we are naturally is not quite up to par. The average GG doesn't look like that when she wakes up in the morning. Sadly, she has been conditioned (as have I) throughout our lives beginning with the Barbie doll at age 4, that her natural look and body simply aren't good enough. So on goes the makeup and the other props ... and the dieting. And the feelings that we are "too fat", or any other of their body part that women regularly complain about. Yes, we know how to attract men and we enjoy dressing this way when we have a goal in mind (it is satisfying to know that the object of our desire is attracted to us), but life isn't fundamentally about attraction as we mature emotionally and move beyond wanting to look like the media ideal. Life is about forming deeper bonds that go beyond mere looks, or at least I hope it is. This is why many women tend to return to their more natural states. They're not androgynous, they are the women they were born to be and at the same time they are not a hyper-feminine runway model. Does this make any sense at all?



I find that I'm more apt to present in a more masculine male mode if she is presenting less androgynous. For example, I will wear a shirt and tie if she wears a dress out to dinner. She usually chooses pants, so... No tie for me. It is like Barbara Streisand said, "You don't bring me flowers anymore." It goes both ways.

LOL. I do the same with my SO, who refuses to dress up as a male (strictly jeans and Tshirts, always). I don't dress up either because then it looks like I am going to one function while he is going to another.



I really love your posts, Reiene. The heart felt support you give here is paramount. I hope my reply is met with a positive feeling. You are always a shining star here and you've helped my wife by shedding light on both of your similar situation. I am trying to return that wonderful favor.

Thank you so much Erika. And I hugely appreciate you and the other CDers who are willing to talk to me about this. Down the line, maybe our discussions will shed some light for others, both the CDers and their wives.


Admittedly, she tends to wear less revealing clothes than when she has a date, but her style is usually quite consistent.

That's my point, Dianne. The revealing clothes come on to impress dates. :) Now your daughter is only 21 and I assume she has not yet found her life partner. It makes sense that she would think about her appearance more than a woman who is married and has had three kids. One never knows when one will meet "the one". :)

[Isabella Ross]

Nice thread. But I think I see some over-thinking here. I think it all boils down to venue.

- If we're dressing for ourselves or in our homes, of course we're over the top. Why wear three inch heels when you can wear five? This holds true for anyone taking photos of themselves and posting online as well. We're men who feel the need to express our femininity...it's sometimes a burning need, and it results in over the top dressing.
- If we're dressing for a TG event or at a uber-friendly venue, we'll also go over the top for many of the same reasons.
- If we're dressing to blend in public, most of us have the common sense to tone it down and blend in.

The short answer, Lacy, is "yes." But what's the harm?

[Stephanie47]

I suspect many cross dresser when dressing at home are playing the equivalent of "dress up" that little girls play. How many little girls play "Princess." They are trying to emulate their image of beauty. Yes, those sites have many really terrific looking girls. Yes, some of the hemlines are too short. Is there a site for middle age or "mature" girls to post their pictures other than their personal web pages? Even on this site I see some girls whose hemlines are a little too far north for their ages. But, hey, I see it in the real world. I see many "mature" women wearing really short dresses. I think they are trying to attract men, and, it probably works.

I dress at home and sometimes venture out in the evening for a stroll. At my age it is always a dress +/- several inches above or below the knee. I do not have self image of myself as a tart or young woman. I see myself as a mature woman. I also carry my age to my male attire. I do not dress as a young guy looking for those young women in short dresses trying to score for the evening.

I don't know if those wearing short dresses (mid thigh or above) are disadvantaging the cause. It depends on the venue. If she is at a venue of adults trying to attract men or show themselves off to other women (see how pretty I look!), then they are probably not hurting the cause. Two years ago I saw a cross dresser in my local Wal-Mart. If I were judging whether or not the "cause" was being advanced, I'd say no. She lacked any poise. She projected the image of a guy in a dress with absolutely no attempt to appear feminine. While I applaud her attempt at self fulfillment, she really did nothing to advance cross dressing. She really drew attention to herself. Then again, I've seen some very tastefully attired with great makeup that made it difficult to ascertain their true gender. How can I say those girls advanced the cause of cross dressing, when nobody was able to determine their gender? They were truly part of the crowd. And, if you have the looks and are a young cross dresser, you may be able to truly pass and look like my teenage granddaughter. Then, you would not advance the cause because nobody saw anything but a young woman. It can be very confusing.

[Adriana Moretti]

alot of great points made here.....there is a BIG difference from dressing in your closet snapping pics, and what goes on in the real world..to some this is fantasy...to others its reality....I too will push the envelope when I'm at home in the closet. When In public its blendy blend, and at a CD event I may push it a bit..but not too far that it's all sequins, glitter, super long nails, too short dresses...etc etc...

[Amy Fakley]

People take vacations to places like Vegas and Disney World.
By and large, people do not save up all year and take time off work to go hang out at ... I dunno ... say ... costco.

I think, for a whole lot of us, that's an apt analogy. Maybe we would if we could, but most of us hanging around talking about this on the internet, simply cannot live this every day. We have to make painstaking plans to clear a time and place to "let the girly out".

Because of that, it becomes a special occasion!

We take pictures, we buy souvenirs to remind us of all the fun we had ... we take hundreds of self-absorbed selfies, trying to look cute in front of random things, and then we post them the internet to our friends and brag about the good times we're having.

If being girly out loud and in public were a day to day part of my normal existence, then I wouldn't feel the need to get completely done up like I'm heading to church on Sunday morning, to run to the grocery store.

but you know, what? I probably had to wait 6 months to get 1 day to myself where that was even possible. So you'd better bet, I'm gonna be the most fabulous shopper on isle 9.

And I'll probably take a selfie while I'm there. And post it on the Internet, lol.

Now ... obviously your mileage will vary. This is why ... as my wife puts it ... I always look "like a preacher's wife in Sunday school". I've never found myself aspiring to overly sexualized looks. It's just not in my personality, and for me ... this is just an expression of who I am, and so it makes sense ... to me anyhow. :-)

[Jaymees22]

Are we too far over the edge? Sometimes I am pursuing a fantasy look so I can achieve something else. If I plan to go out though I really try to blend. In general we may try to over compensate because we know we are not women and need to be a little over the top. Hugs Jaymee

[Jenniferathome]

...In male mode I am average in appearance and rarely attract a woman's attention. But dressed as Alex, I get noticed by both men and women, in a good way. .... It is nice to be noticed as physically attractive, ...".

Alex,

This notion has been suggested many times here. I have even written something very similar. I once told my wife that I think I'm better looking as a woman than a man. I thought I was just average looking. What I didn't accept is that, first and foremost, she thinks I am a very attractive man as do some of her friends. AND, women just get noticed more than men generally. Men LOOK at women, mouths open, heads turning and all. Women, look at men with far more subtly. So while you may think you are less noticed, you may be mistaken. It's hard to be objective about something like this. As cross dressers we put more effort into our female appearance than our male side. That's not fair to our wives and girlfriends. They deserve to see us at our best.

[PaulaQ]

I once told my wife that I think I'm better looking as a woman than a man. I thought I was just average looking. What I didn't accept is that, first and foremost, she thinks I am a very attractive man as do some of her friends.

This is a symptom of gender dysphoria, by the way. I certainly could relate to those feelings. My feelings were far more extreme, of course. Yours seem pretty mild.

[Alex!]

Jennifer,

Perhaps so. I always try to look my best in guy mode, to be sure. I put more effort into Alex only a few days out of the year. Interestingly, while in a relationship, I lose the desire to crossdress entirely. This aspect supports my belief that my form of crossdressing is not of the transgender variety.

[CynthiaD]

Hmmm ...
I have a lot of maxi-dresses. I really like maxi-dresses. I also have some "really short" dresses that barely cover my knees. Mid thigh? Not on this old girl!

[Beverley Sims]

It is not over the edge, but these photos do not reflect reality.

I look bloody awful normally, but if it was a way to present myself there would be ten hours of preparation and fashionable clothes.

I can look good and why not flaunt what you have.

All the girls you have talked about have. :)

[PaulaQ]

This aspect supports my belief that my form of crossdressing is not of the transgender variety.

I wish that were generally the case, but it's not. A lot of us try "the marriage cure." It doesn't work. Not forever - I went 14-15 years. You can decide for yourself whether or not it worked out for me.

The transgender form of crossdressing is the one where you wear women's clothes, but still self-identify as a man.

If you mean it suggests you'll never transition because of a sexual component to it, that's a nice theory too, but I know many who CDed, it was highly sexually charged for them, and yet they transitioned. It was that way for me.

How much, or how little, effort you put into CDing doesn't matter either.

There just isn't much of anything that's a reliable predictor of transition / non-transition. I attribute this to "knowing the future is hard."

BTW, any highly feminine presentation will draw flack from some women. I take a certain amount of flack. I'm by no means over the top. I just rarely wear jeans or slacks. I had to wear them for 50 years - and other than utility purposes, I'm not wearing them ever again.

It's really interesting to watch one of the other leaders in my trans organization complain about my roommate. My roommate typically wears Daisy Dukes, 4" heels, and makeup that is at best unsubtle. She's also 6' 2", and built like a linebacker. My friend who criticizes her, and actually several of the other women who criticize her mode of dress, frankly, look like crap most of the time. They wear drab unflattering, unfeminine clothes, no makeup, and while there are some women who can make stuff like that look pretty good, let's just say these women are doing themselves no favors. I mean look - there are hot Amish women too, I'm sure.

What they are really doing is barely expressing femininity at all - they just don't want to be noticed. I can understand this - sometimes attention can be negative. But they more or less completely eliminate positive attention too. That'd be OK if they were in happy relationships, but most of them are lonely as all hell.

My roommate gets a lot of positive attention - or well she gets attention from men and women. Why wouldn't she - she's showing the merchandise. (She has great legs - the heels and short-shorts actually work pretty well for her. It's above the waist that is her issue.)

I'm trying to let her get all of this out of her system. She only recently got a job, she lives in the gay district in Dallas, and nobody here cares what you wear.

Before she's ready to come out on the job, I'm going to help her shop and improve her makeup so she has a flattering appearance that's professional, a little understated, but decidedly feminine.

I don't really see being over the top as a big problem for people in their personal lives. Yeah, some people will make fun of you. And a lot of cisgender women don't do this because it's a lot of work, it's hard to pull it off well, and frankly, a lot of them don't have the skills or opportunity to do it. Also, there are plenty of women who simply don't want all the attention from men that some really over-the-top outfits and makeup can bring. (Also jealousy and cattiness can be an issue too.) My roommate doesn't care - she wants the attention, so I see no problem with her trying to get it.

Because at the end of the day, whatever she wears, it's probably always going to be obvious she's trans. If she has fun doing what she's doing, well, why shouldn't she do it? The women who complain about her dress seem to be having just about ZERO fun. Why would anyone listen to them?

So when some of the other leaders in the local trans community pontificate on her distorted view of femininity, and talk to me about it "you've got to do something, Paula!", I just tell them that I am disinclined to force people to conform in situations where conformity buys them nothing, and that I think that is the root cause of many of the world's problems, or at least our problems in the world as trans people.

Anyway, I go out with her in public way more than they do, I am not ashamed of her, and if they are, it just speaks poorly of them.

Also, my general opinion is that anyone who doesn't dress well should refrain from giving fashion advice to others. Unfortunately, quite a few of the trans women I know locally don't dress very well, in my opinion. (I don't say that to be snobby. I mean wearing clothes that are wrong for your body, and are drab and unattractive on just about anyone, is a terrible strategy for a woman, I think.)

That's one reason why I kind of like talking with CDs. Y'all often dress better.

[sometimes_miss]

I think that a lot of us simply choose the more feminine options whenever the opportunity presents itself; it doesn't have to be WAY over the top, but we do choose more girly things more often than a lot of GG's do (Not all GG's, though; there are plenty out there who revel in cutesy pretty stuff every time it's a choice, just like we do. Just look at all the 20 and 30 somethings that wear cute animal hats and have hello kitty stuff all over their belongings!). We choose pretty lacy bras over plain cotton, silk/nylon panties over plain ones, stockings instead of socks. Heels instead of even just pink laces in our plain white sneakers. All in all, I think it's to give feedback to ourselves both tactile and visual that shouts 'GIRL' so we can sustain the delusion more easily. Look at all the people who dress up, carefully arrange their pose and take pictures so that they can imagine that they really do look like the woman they want to present as, whether it's to others, or just to themselves. While I don't generally take pictures of myself while dressed as a girl, I do avail myself of covering mirrors so that my true reflected image doesn't destroy what I can see of myself from my own eyes.

[Princess Chantal]

I tend to limit my casual blending appearance to my pedicure appointment now days. Early on in my crossdressing life I had taken the advice from trans friends to conform my dressing to a more of a blend in look. Yes I did not get as many stares, however I had far more negative interactions then when I "go over the edge" with shorter skirt and heels. Many of those interactions were in my face type where I feared for my physical well being. It seems like society has a harsher issues with someone that appears to be transitioning than someone that appears as if they are crossdressing for the fun.

[MissTee]

I agree with a lot of what has been said about dressing preference coming in stages. In the earliest stage and with limited funds I went for the frilliest and most girl thing a few coins could buy. As I matured and had more disposable income my tasted refined somewhat, and I went several stages of diversify my dressing just to try out different women's looks (Maxi's, capri's, balloon blouses, long and short dresses, etc.)

Although I don't go out and don't wish to, I can now dress whenever I want at home. I find I prefer cute mid-length or half calf length skirts and simple blouses/dressy T's. Nothing flashy or over the top, and doubtful they would attract attention. I feel I choose this because I wear pants and shorts in guy mode all the time, and skirt are a nice change of pace.