Just how bad do you want to be a woman?

[livy_m_b]

Let's imagine that in order to qualify for crossdressing or grs, you were required to spend several months in a school run by ggs in which they attempted to teach you everything they know about being women. Don't get excited - I'm not talking about petticoat discipline. It might be like bootcamp - when you arrive, you're issued cotton panties, jeans and t-shirts and tennis shoes and that's your attire til you graduate to the next level.

Everyday you are permitted to do only things that are traditional gender roles for women in our society - cook breakfast, wash dishes, clean house, fix lunch, care for children (a local daycare center is a cooperative institution), shop for groceries, clean behind the stool, iron clothes, fix dinner, wash dishes, finally about 11 pm you can go to bed in a simple cotton nightie. Sorry, there's no hubby provided. You're a single mother.

Time goes on, you graduate to panties and slacks and blouses and training bras. But your life doesn't really change. Another cooperative institution is added: the local gay bar where you are permitted to go in evenings and the guys there make passes at you, comments, remarks, try to feel you up, pick you up etc.

Well, you get the picture, until you graduate as a "woman" you are required to do exactly the kinds of nonromantic, nonsexual things women do all the time. The closest thing you get to romance is fighting off the gays at the bar (or suffering the consequences if you succomb). When you go to try to buy a car - another cooperating institution - the sales people treat you like you're an idiot, ask where your husband is, even refuse to deal with you. Day in day out, it continues.

Would you do it?

[Priss]

It may sound quite boring, probably is... It'd be an interesting experience though. I would... Even though it's a little after the fact for me. ;)

Of course me, I still say that you know someone is serious when they go for genital electrolysis...:eek:

[MandyTS]

The problem with your post is that you say "do things that are not sensual, sexual, etc". Point is, people that are serious are not about "sexual" means but to be a woman, and all of these things have to be learned by all real transpeople. Would I do it... yes in a heartbeat, but real learning would happen in the "real world"...

[Melissa Ryan]

I like your idea! Is nice to come up with stuff......I think I would want to do it. All sept the kids bit....I,ve done that and dont need to do it again!

And I like cotton panties! :p

[eleventhdr]

It is sometime's that it just hurt's so bad that i was not born female. Dispite all that you are saying right here about having to do all these thing's that women are suppose to be able to do without even thinling about it. wel let me explain men can and do do these very same thing's for themselves before they might ever get married and some even after that. Think thee that men can not take care fo themselves and learn to do this stuff well we can and do do a lot of this I know i do being male is not all that easy either. we often have to do this if and when we have knowone to do it for us and we do it dispite ourselves we can and have done so for a very long time. So yeah i would still become a women dispite all that you might think about it not being all glamous. I just would want to be one anyway because thta's who and what i am really suppose to be!:. Suzy!.:.

[RachelDenise]

I think you have just found the way to separate the fetishist/casual crossdreser from the TS. The desire to be a woman may be so great for some that anything would be OK. Me, I'm not enrolling.

[Helen MC]

An interesting idea. I used to fantasise about sharing a house with two Lesbians ,dressing totally en-femme and being addressed as Helen by them. Not I hasten to add a "discipline" or "humiliation" scenario, I'm not into BDSM but being considered and treated as another woman by them , doing the housework, sharing all sorts of womanly matters and hopefully clothes with them but not being sexually involved. This however was a fantasy and never came to fruition. I feel that the reality would have been a big disappointment as was marriage and sexual intercourse for me, the idea being a lot more exciting than the realisation thereof.

[Maria D]

Well, I don't want to be a woman at all. I tried really hard not to be, and to be what people expected of me. But I failed.
I just needed to be a woman; needed enough to feel suicidal; needed enough to risk everything, family, friends, job etc, to transition. Turns out I didn't lose anyone, but it was a risk I had to take. That's how far I went.

I rarely wear a skirt, often go out without makeup (though my top lip is still a bit dark). I'm just your typical girl really. 99% of the time all I wear IS jeans, t-shirt and flat shoes. Being a woman isn't about sexy clothes and pleasure all the time you know. It's about being a woman. :)
So to your question about doing 'non-sexual womanly things' all the time, that's exactly what I do, like normal women do. That's what being TS was for me. :)

[Larrie]

Wait a minute, that is my daily real life. No boot camp needed. Life, I feel is not about sexy but whats going on in head. Hugs, Larrie :)

[Lilith Moon]

Would you do it?

Most ggs I know certainly wouldn't.

[Caitlyn]

Interesting thread. I feel it would be like a holiday away from the male me people see. Where can I sign up.
I think Maria D said it best. If you WANT to be TS, then I think there is a great possibility that you are doing this for the wrong reason. Life living as a female is going to be hard. A gazillion times harder than if I was a GG, but living a hard life is better than the one I am living now. lmao

[Ms Alison Janes]

Livy
It's that second paragraph that put me off the idea.

[Tina Dixon]

Arrrrrggggggggggggggg, not all females want children, sorry im dropping out of this school:thumbsdn:

[maid phylis]

it sounds interesting ,and since i did a real boot camp i might do it :D

[tara 24-7]

just once in i while when i want to feel sooooooooo good, kisses tara

[pattied]

Well, I don't want to be a woman at all. I tried really hard not to be, and to be what people expected of me. But I failed.
I just needed to be a woman; needed enough to feel suicidal; needed enough to risk everything, family, friends, job etc, to transition. Turns out I didn't lose anyone, but it was a risk I had to take. That's how far I went.

I rarely wear a skirt, often go out without makeup (though my top lip is still a bit dark). I'm just your typical girl really. 99% of the time all I wear IS jeans, t-shirt and flat shoes. Being a woman isn't about sexy clothes and pleasure all the time you know. It's about being a woman. :)
So to your question about doing 'non-sexual womanly things' all the time, that's exactly what I do, like normal women do. That's what being TS was for me. :)

Well said!

By definition, those CDers who are into CDing for sensual purposes only are termed Transvestic Fetishistic. Those of us who are feel the need to be wholly woman, well, it isn't about sex. It is about deep psychological thought processes. It is about being on the outside who we are on the inside.

Maria~ I began my therapy today. First session. Like you, I do not want to be a woman, so much as I feel that is who I am. I tried for more than 25 years to be the man my body suggests to the world I am. I tried to hide, suppress, run away, etc and the path it led me down was filled with depression, rage, guilt and shame. No more. I am who I am. I am risking (in my mind) everything in terms of familial relationships. I hope that my family and friends are as accepting as yours.

PD

[CutieJulie]

where do I sign up :)

[Maria D]

Pattie, the depression, guilt, shame and rage are exactly how I used to feel. It's no way to live and it's unfair of any person or society to expect people to live like that, just to satisfy their view of the world.

I wish you the best of luck and sincerely hope you are accepted for who you are by those you care about. :)

[Tamara Croft]

Everyday you are permitted to do only things that are traditional gender roles for women in our society - cook breakfast, wash dishes, clean house, fix lunch, care for children (a local daycare center is a cooperative institution), shop for groceries, clean behind the stool, iron clothes, fix dinner, wash dishes, finally about 11 pm you can go to bed in a simple cotton nightie. Sorry, there's no hubby provided. You're a single mother.I find this quite offensive. You really have got us labelled haven't you. Well women were NOT put on this earth to cook, wash, clean etc and raise children. We do have a life as well and most of us work for a living. Your view of women is rather sexist!!

[MarieTS]

OK Mr. Smarty Pants, I'll take your bet and raise you one. I'll agree to the terms of your little mini boot camp, but there has to be some reciprocity in the offering. And I'm not talking about lingerie wearing.

While we proceed through this little arbitrary crucible of yours, you've got to agree that we get to transition to a totally female personna as we go. And no, I'm not simply talking about acquiring female body parts. I'm talking about a total feminization process such as...

* Developing the ability to "listen" and not just hear.
* Becoming more compassionate.
* Be able to soothe a crying child through empathy
* Develop the manual dexterity to clasp a necklace and braid a child's hair
* Be less cynical and more altruistic in our dealings with people
* Consider other people's feelings ahead of our own
* Learn to play games and sports "for fun" instead of "to win"
* Learn to deal with that monthly 4 pound water weight gain and other physical discomforts without thinking about ourselves
* Have our physical features become smaller
* Develop softer, smoother skin
* Learn to talk on the phone, tie a child's pony tail, and cook a meal
simultaneously.
* Acquire an extra 4 degree angle between our hips and our knees
* Learn to support one another emotionally
* Be able to bring cheer and light up a room with our presence
* Learn to understand what "the important" things in life really are
* Be blessed with the ability to give birth
* Learn to how to manipulate men in order to get them to CALM DOWN

Well, that's not an exhaustive list of what it means to be a woman, but its a solid start. Give us a pieces of that as we navigate our way through your silly little kichen slave boot camp an I'll gladly forgo the trip to Victoria's Secret until graduation. Heck, a real woman doesn't even need VS, because she's content with her inner self. An occaissional decadent delight such as a trip to VS is merely just one way to pamper ourselves for all our hard work. Heck, the ultimate goal why women do these things is probably to bring happiness to some oversexxed, underappreciative guy.

I was stunned by your demand that we do menial chores. One thing is for certain. The reason those things are called "women's work," is because they are difficult, dirty, and thankless. But I'll gladly tackle them in order to fully acquire the characteristics that I listed above.

Anybody with me? ;)

[livy_m_b]

I find this quite offensive. You really have got us labelled haven't you. Well women were NOT put on this earth to cook, wash, clean etc and raise children. We do have a life as well and most of us work for a living. Your view of women is rather sexist!!


See my answer to Marie TG. :)

[livy_m_b]

OK Mr. Smarty Pants, I'll take your bet and raise you one. I'll agree to the terms of your little mini boot camp, but there has to be some reciprocity in the offering. And I'm not talking about lingerie wearing.

While we proceed through this little arbitrary crucible of yours, you've got to agree that we get to transition to a totally female personna as we go. And no, I'm not simply talking about acquiring female body parts. I'm talking about a total feminization process such as...

* Developing the ability to "listen" and not just hear.
* Becoming more compassionate.
* Be able to soothe a crying child through empathy
* Develop the manual dexterity to clasp a necklace and braid a child's hair
* Be less cynical and more altruistic in our dealings with people
* Consider other people's feelings ahead of our own
* Learn to play games and sports "for fun" instead of "to win"
* Learn to deal with that monthly 4 pound water weight gain and other physical discomforts without thinking about ourselves
* Have our physical features become smaller
* Develop softer, smoother skin
* Learn to talk on the phone, tie a child's pony tail, and cook a meal
simultaneously.
* Acquire an extra 4 degree angle between our hips and our knees
* Learn to support one another emotionally
* Be able to bring cheer and light up a room with our presence
* Learn to understand what "the important" things in life really are
* Be blessed with the ability to give birth
* Learn to how to manipulate men in order to get them to CALM DOWN

Well, that's not an exhaustive list of what it means to be a woman, but its a solid start. Give us a pieces of that as we navigate our way through your silly little kichen slave boot camp an I'll gladly forgo the trip to Victoria's Secret until graduation. Heck, a real woman doesn't even need VS, because she's content with her inner self. An occaissional decadent delight such as a trip to VS is merely just one way to pamper ourselves for all our hard work. Heck, the ultimate goal why women do these things is probably to bring happiness to some oversexxed, underappreciative guy.

I was stunned by your demand that we do menial chores. One thing is for certain. The reason those things are called "women's work," is because they are difficult, dirty, and thankless. But I'll gladly tackle them in order to fully acquire the characteristics that I listed above.

Anybody with me? ;)

I am! :)

Seriously, I hope no one thinks that the boot camp is the way "it's sposed to be". All of the points in the second paragraph are things I've heard gg's complain (justly) about - sooooo....I made them into a test. If I knew of any way to get to the point Marie describes, it would be wonderful.

[Deborah]

cook breakfast, wash dishes, clean house, fix lunch, care for children, shop for groceries, clean behind the stool, iron clothes, fix dinner, wash dishes, finally about 11 pm you can go to bed in a simple cotton nightie. Sorry, there's no hubby provided. You're a single mother.

Would you do it?

Already doing it. It's called being a single parent and i go to college full time as well. :D

[MandyTS]

Upon reading this thread I have come up upon a realization about being a girl. Do GGs have to learn many of the things on your list? The answer will probably suprise you: yes to a point. Lets look at the list in my context...

Developing the ability to "listen" and not just hear.
- I have been known as the listener all my life. People call me with their problems and I listen with a level head. I have empathy and understand what many people are going through in their lives. Listening goes hand in hand with talking and girls tend to have good abilities in both... and girl, I love to talk!
* Becoming more compassionate.
- Except for a very small set of people I am extremely compassionate, and even better I feel the emotions of others and tend to make it my own... like if I see a girl crying I cry (or a guy for that matter).
* Be able to soothe a crying child through empathy
- I used to voulentier in a church day care with the little children when I was growing up. I had a very unique way to make the little baby smile and calm down. Kids always loved me as I grew up.
* Develop the manual dexterity to clasp a necklace and braid a child's hair
- Did you say manual dexterity... how about put in stud earings, etc.
* Be less cynical and more altruistic in our dealings with people
- Read the empathetic answer.
* Consider other people's feelings ahead of our own
- This one is hard and I know many girls (GGs) who do not do this. Woman are collaborative and put the group ahead of others. We all have a little bit of self preservation and we can not get away from that. I believe for a woman it is not putting people in front of you but being in a collaborative with everyone.
* Learn to play games and sports "for fun" instead of "to win"
- I never win and don't really care... testosterone is the "drive to win" and having a competative spirit is always good. It is what happens after the "race or sports event" that seperates the guys from girls. I once stopped in a road race and helped a cyclist who had fallen down bad and nursed him back up to pace, after none of the other "guys" would help.
* Learn to deal with that monthly 4 pound water weight gain and other physical discomforts without thinking about ourselves
- I don't believe this is true either... I do know that discomforts (like my lack of smell) become normal and we just "deal" with them.
* Have our physical features become smaller
- I would love this... and actually as I loose weight this is happening.
* Develop softer, smoother skin
- I already have smooth skin (very), and can not wait for hormones to help
* Learn to talk on the phone, tie a child's pony tail, and cook a meal
simultaneously.
- How about pack a childs lunch, juggle a driving schedule and chew gum at the same time also... it is called multitasking and that is not a male or female trait.
* Acquire an extra 4 degree angle between our hips and our knees
- Don't need it... I already have a female size hip pelvic structure.
* Learn to support one another emotionally
- I do this natrually.
* Be able to bring cheer and light up a room with our presence
- Once again, this is a personality trait, not necessarily male or female.
* Learn to understand what "the important" things in life really are
- This is a good trait for male or female.
* Be blessed with the ability to give birth
- You have no idea how much I want that. I wish someone could transplant a uterous into me and I could turn the clock back and have my vigina back so I can have kids... everything is already there. I want kids so much, and unfortunity I can not have one.
* Learn to how to manipulate men in order to get them to CALM DOWN
- Hmmm...


Any one who considers themself a girl will have a majority of these things already. You do not need to "train me" to cook, clean, iron, etc... they are just part of being me. Anyone who is really a girl would understand this...

Now segregating things into male and female activities... wrong way to go!

Mandy

[alisoncdnj]

In a heartbeat, I guess you have to take the good with the bad. Although, I really don't think what you suggested would be bad. In fact I think it would be quite enjoyable. Since I already enjoy most of the things you mentioned, except the gay bar part.

[tara 24-7]

OK Mr. Smarty Pants, I'll take your bet and raise you one. I'll agree to the terms of your little mini boot camp, but there has to be some reciprocity in the offering. And I'm not talking about lingerie wearing.

While we proceed through this little arbitrary crucible of yours, you've got to agree that we get to transition to a totally female personna as we go. And no, I'm not simply talking about acquiring female body parts. I'm talking about a total feminization process such as...

* Developing the ability to "listen" and not just hear.
* Becoming more compassionate.
* Be able to soothe a crying child through empathy
* Develop the manual dexterity to clasp a necklace and braid a child's hair
* Be less cynical and more altruistic in our dealings with people
* Consider other people's feelings ahead of our own
* Learn to play games and sports "for fun" instead of "to win"
* Learn to deal with that monthly 4 pound water weight gain and other physical discomforts without thinking about ourselves
* Have our physical features become smaller
* Develop softer, smoother skin
* Learn to talk on the phone, tie a child's pony tail, and cook a meal
simultaneously.
* Acquire an extra 4 degree angle between our hips and our knees
* Learn to support one another emotionally
* Be able to bring cheer and light up a room with our presence
* Learn to understand what "the important" things in life really are
* Be blessed with the ability to give birth
* Learn to how to manipulate men in order to get them to CALM DOWN

Well, that's not an exhaustive list of what it means to be a woman, but its a solid start. Give us a pieces of that as we navigate our way through your silly little kichen slave boot camp an I'll gladly forgo the trip to Victoria's Secret until graduation. Heck, a real woman doesn't even need VS, because she's content with her inner self. An occaissional decadent delight such as a trip to VS is merely just one way to pamper ourselves for all our hard work. Heck, the ultimate goal why women do these things is probably to bring happiness to some oversexxed, underappreciative guy.

I was stunned by your demand that we do menial chores. One thing is for certain. The reason those things are called "women's work," is because they are difficult, dirty, and thankless. But I'll gladly tackle them in order to fully acquire the characteristics that I listed above.

Anybody with me? ;) spot on hon. im proud of you, kisses tara xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[miyako]

Yeah sure would. Being a woman (GG) is a lot different in my perspective than transitioning into one. They go through a lot. I think there is a lot to know/learn about (GG) and their history and what they have fought for and have gained throughout the years. I believe it's best to be as educated as you can possibly be about women and the transgressions they have gone through as a (GG-Role). Sure it's easy to transition and become that of the other gender, but to know the history and be supportive of feminine groups/club/societies is another thing. Just an example, those of us who do crossdress and may be behind the closet door can still support feminine societies and organizations. Support breast cancer, or feminist groups. Just cause you support them on the male side won't exploit your secret. It's just a personal opinion though. Another person who believes this like I do is Helen Boyd, author of "My Husband Betty". Which is one of my favorite books. It's a very well educated and balanced read. No sugar coating about it. Just like I like it. Give it a read.... you might even like it. Well enough of my ranting and raving.

Miyako



Let's imagine that in order to qualify for crossdressing or grs, you were required to spend several months in a school run by ggs in which they attempted to teach you everything they know about being women. Don't get excited - I'm not talking about petticoat discipline. It might be like bootcamp - when you arrive, you're issued cotton panties, jeans and t-shirts and tennis shoes and that's your attire til you graduate to the next level.

Everyday you are permitted to do only things that are traditional gender roles for women in our society - cook breakfast, wash dishes, clean house, fix lunch, care for children (a local daycare center is a cooperative institution), shop for groceries, clean behind the stool, iron clothes, fix dinner, wash dishes, finally about 11 pm you can go to bed in a simple cotton nightie. Sorry, there's no hubby provided. You're a single mother.

Time goes on, you graduate to panties and slacks and blouses and training bras. But your life doesn't really change. Another cooperative institution is added: the local gay bar where you are permitted to go in evenings and the guys there make passes at you, comments, remarks, try to feel you up, pick you up etc.

Well, you get the picture, until you graduate as a "woman" you are required to do exactly the kinds of nonromantic, nonsexual things women do all the time. The closest thing you get to romance is fighting off the gays at the bar (or suffering the consequences if you succomb). When you go to try to buy a car - another cooperating institution - the sales people treat you like you're an idiot, ask where your husband is, even refuse to deal with you. Day in day out, it continues.

Would you do it?

[Penny]

Well, let's see how I fit in. When my first child was born, I stayed home for 6 months to care for and bond with him. A few years later, my wife left me and there I was with my son. All the criteria you set forth was exactly what I had to do. But there is more to it than that! I had to provide for him to. We call that work for pay. I made a total commitment to him loving him more that myself. With my family thousands of miles away, my support came from
understanding and caring woman. Thank god the majority of brain relates
to females or I don't think I would have ever made it! I learned: we laughed,
we shared, we cryed and we confided in each other. They felt my pain, and
felt theirs. They shared their desires, fears, dreams and I listened to their complaints.
So about the gay bar thing, I was out of town when after visiting several bars, I stumbles into a , unbeknown to me, gay bar. As a sister, even though I wasn't dresses,I must
have seemed like an easy target. Petty soon my theigh was be rubbed and
there was a strong movement toward my crotch with promoses of taking care of me in ways my wife couldn't. As drunk as I was, I managed to ward him off and get out of there.
So here's my point, I appear womanly, walk like a woman, talk like a woman and in fact, the greater percentage of my brain tells me I am but it's never going be because I never had a period and lack the necessary reproductive organs. So while one man's perception may vary from duties performed around the house to unique emotions and everything in between,
the only constant in every different woman is that of periods. So no matter what kind of appearance assumed to satisfy our female brain, without a period, the result will always be a question or an exclamation mark!
So what then does it take to make the round peg fit into the square hole? Each of is different! The answer is in each one of us.

[livy_m_b]

Thanks for a wonderful post, Penny. Based on your experience, I agree you don't have to prequalify for anything further you want to do! :)

(And likewise for a number of others whom I haven't mentioned by name! :) )

[Sierra Evon]

I'm sure that thier is alot of truth in that analagy of the rolls of women
in society, even in 06' not a whole lot has changed. My answer would
be "yes", I'd do it , but NO, not the kids part , I dont go that route.
and I can be a bitch , to , cotton panties absolutly.........Sierra

[AmandaM]

Let's change it. New rules: You have to get up in the morning, shave your legs, put on your finest business attire and pumps. Fix your hair. Then go to the office. After work, you go shopping for a new outfit with your bestfriend. You get to go home, let down your hair. Make a gourmet meal for yourself and your SO. Then you can take a bubble bath, put on some comfortable nightwear and have a glass of wine while watching Sex in the City.

Sounds good to me! And very real...:)