Transgender = Transsexual ???? Since When?

[Nadine Spirit]

I know, I know, a somewhat hated discussion around here as it has to do with labels. So if you are just going to dismiss this discussion as labels should only be used for soup cans, then slide on by to the next thread. Whether anyone wants to accept it or not, labels are being applied to us. I think we should be the ones who are actively involved in defining those labels. So anyways.....

Recently I have become aware of a trend of most media, and some around here, to refer to transsexual individuals only as transgender. While that in and of itself is not problematic, there is no distinction being made of transgender individuals who are transitioning. It is more along the lines of people beginning to reference and assume that if one is transgender then one is going to transition. I think I first noticed this in the Bruce interview. I have not seen it all, just the middle hour or so. But within it, they never said the word transsexual, that I noticed, it was just a constant reference to him being transgender. It was possibly my only concern about the interview.

My sister saw the interview and it prompted great confusion within her that I identify as transgender, but am not interested in transition. For me though it is tough as while I cross dress, most of my time is spent in a gender non-conforming presentation. That is kind of a mouthful to explain to folks who ask, it is far easier to simply say I am transgender. But then they want to know when I will transition.

So.... do you all think that the word transgender is in the process of replacing the word transsexual?

BTW... my fave graphic about this is:

246083

from: http://thegenderbook.tumblr.com/image/41848208449

[Jenniferathome]

It's the equivalent of "black" and "African American." It's the new political correctness without understanding. It just sounds nicer. By the way, my buddy from Jamaica hates "African American" because that umbrella misrepresents him!

[cheryl reeves]

transgender sounds better the transexual,its like when cross dressing replaced transvestitism. im transgender and ts but will never transition.

[Claire Cook]

Hi Nadine,

Thanks for this. i am solidly in your camp here and I want that poster on my wall!!

[Jaylyn]

Nadine that's a tough one to answer. I've never considered myself a transgendered. I just love the clothing and the accessories, such as makeup, wigs, hose , heels and the feel of all this on my body. Is this Transgendered? Sometimes I apply so much makeup I feel I'm nearer to a drag queen. One pair of my heels are too tall but I like to wear them because I feel sexier in them. Maybe this is my part of being transgendered. Is there such a thing as just a plain and simple crossdresser because we love the way a nylon dress and hose makes us feel? I think the word transsexual has way too many mis- connotations already to have to throw in transgendered also. Is getting in touch with ones female side by dressing so much different than the old saying real men don't cry. I've seen some big old burly real men shed a tear at a funeral. Are they getting in touch with their female side. I've always thought it would do both genders a favor if they had enough emotions to cry sometimes. I feel the same way about laughing.
To answer your question I feel there would be more confusion if the word transgender replaced the word transsexual.

[Amelia Coffey]

Seems to me that many people have a problem with the word sex. Even on this site I have seen people
refer to gender re-assignment surgery. Wouldn't that be some sort of brain surgery?

On a soap opera my wife watches, they have a story line going on about a "transgender" issue.
Just irks me to death.

Amy

[Jorja]

It comes down to political correctness. The media thinks that by calling a transsexual, transgender, they will not offend anyone. It sounds better. What they do not understand is that today I am a woman, I was a transsexual, and before that I fell into the transgender umbrella somewhere.

For me, it doesn't matter. I transitioned at a time when these terms were just starting to be used. I haven't been either transgender nor transsexual for a very, very long time. Guess what? I am still a woman just like any other. Just don't call me late for dinner! ;)

[sherri]

On a soap opera my wife watches, they have a story line going on about a "transgender" issue.
Just irks me to death.

AmyImho, transgender is an umbrella term referencing anyone who blurs conventional gender ID or boundaries, in whatever way or degree. That includes crossdressers as well as transsexuals. To me, however, the term is more apropos for someone who genuinely identifies as fem (in the case of mtf) in some way as opposed to the occasional fetishist. So guess what sweetie, if you identify and express as fem at all, you are transgender. 'Course, you don't have to use the term if you don't want to. After all, it's your dysphoria. :D

[mykell]

nadine i have recently attended some pflag meetings, they have a TG support nite,
at my first meeting after introductions we went around the group and spoke, i asked that question, i exclaimed that here we even have the TS section on our forum, one of the meeting hosts is TS and explained that that term is almost on the verge of derogatory and transgender is the modern and preferred term, a few other comments were made but i felt like i had insulted some there.....started a thread here the next day i believe....


i did return dressed at the next monthly meeting, a first for me and was made to feel comfortable and at this meeting mingled and talked with some members afterwards....

so ive accepted the term for myself since joining here, dont really mind all the attention about "ms. jenner" and feel its bringing some due positive attention to the subject and dont really dwell on the transition thing.....i feel some here may find that it will be theyre endgame in the future.....like its been said you never know how far we find we will need to go to accept things.....for now im happy just being me....

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Your post is well thought out.
I realize i don't speak for anybody but myself but here is my perspective as a transsexual
i know that the "world" will do what it does and people will say what they will say but i am not transgendered...im a transsexual woman...i can be more politically correct and say I'm just a woman....

although i have lots of cd/tg friends and i support them totally, i am not one of them...

we can also talk about the gender binary... one way to think of transsexuals is that we exist in that binary... tg people do not...thats a pretty big difference...
and because we feel like just a woman, we try to exist inside that binary...tg people exist outside of it... i'm all for the umbrella, but as a transitioned woman i don't consider myself in it..

even transsexuals that are totally out exist inside the binary...they are just women with a past that is not typical of other women..

just my own perspective..

its an important thing to me... there is stigma for me to be thought of or considered to be a man in any way shape or form..i find that as a transsexual i am often marginalized, disbelieved and dehumanized....one way that happens in a subtle way is to try to label me as something that i am not..
that i am somehow doing this as a man pretending to be or emulating a woman..its a way of disbelieving my entire existence ...that's how deep it goes...

it may go that deep for everybody cds and GQ etc etc...i can't say but in that case i'd think you all would not want to be lumped in with a bunch of crazy women that screwed over their whole life to live authentically..

[LucyNewport]

Again, I think it comes down to the fact that folks who transition are, by necessity, the most visible members of the tribe. Cross Dressers, Bi Genders etc at least have the option of blending into the crowd. If you change all your legal markers, come out to everyone, and do this 24/7 that is usually not going to be an option. If we want a more nuanced discussion of what transgender is or can be we need to make it happen.

Also, the media always boils things down into its simplest form. Complexity doesn't sell. You can't get more black and white than "X was a boy, now X is a girl" so that is what you will see. Pushing boundaries and the wholesale redefining of gender categories makes people more uncomfortable than any given person changing teams.

[emma5410]

As a transsexual I do not like to be called transgender. I am a woman and living as one does not mean that I have crossed any gender lines. I was always on the female side of the line. The difference now is that my body and appearance are more in line with my gender.

I agree with what you are saying though. The media seems to have adopted transgender as another term for transsexual. Not good news for all those who have no intention of transitioning and want to stay in relationships.

[Isabella Ross]

With all due respect to Jaylyn, any man who has a powerful urge to wear women's clothes and feel feminine is transgendered, which I believe is what you're saying, Nadine. If those who go on to transition prefer to be called transsexual, so be it. But I think the larger issue is the net result of the media's careless labeling of transsexual people as transgender -- and that is the great unwashed masses just follow suit without thinking and assume that, if I'm transgendered, I must have transitioned or, like Bruce Jenner, be contemplating it, or in the process. And of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Disturbing.

[Lori Kurtz]

Unfortunately, it seems that this is really a matter of personal taste and preference. Nobody has the authority, like a king, or shall we say, a queen, to say this terminology is right or this terminology is wrong. The best we can do is respect each other's feelings while trying to be clear about what we mean when we use whatever words we use.

[ShayLeigh Dominique]

Transsexual is not the same as transgender.

My reasoning:
Trans means across, or to cross
therefore:
"trans"gender crosses the gender boundary (CD and TV fall here as do all who dance on the line between gendermale and genderfemale)
AND
"trans"sexual crosses the sex designation boundary (to the best that modern science and medicine can accomplish today). Those who actually proceed on the transition would be categorized here.

Now, that being said... I personally think that dichotomies in general are too limited and limiting. Where does the individual who transitions to a mid-point and then says "Ok, I'm fine here"? Is she (or he, in the case of transmen) transgender, or transsexual? By giving up the gender role previously held, and taking on the sexual characteristics of the new, isn't she (he) both? And yet, not entirely either...

I'm a big fan of "trans_(fill in the blank), or "trans*".

I am not the same, nor can I relate to the plight of she who has done HRT and SRS; but aren't we both trying to become more than we were? To better experience life from a "proper" perspective?

ADDENDUM:
This thread has gotten incredibly more deep than when I last read through it... Though I stand by what I wrote before, I no longer feel qualified to truly have an opinion here.
At this point I have no idea how to qualify or classify myself.
I have never felt included in the rules that everyone else follow. I have always been exceptional, by which I mean “one who is excepted”. I was always so odd, so unique, so free thinking that I couldn't tell when “the social police” were trying to chivvy me into “proper” place.
I joined this party late (as usual), and times like this make me wish I had been more adventurous, less fearful; more assertive, less submissive; more male, less female in my youth. I think at best now I can only consider myself “androgyne” if anything; still I am neither one nor the other.
I had hoped to find information, if not outright answers here; but it seems we are all lost in the world.

I commend you all for your courage to seize your definitions where you could, creating them whole cloth where necessary. I don’t have that strength. Or if I did, it has been spent fighting my way along my own “path less travelled” because I was not included in (or couldn't find my way along) everyone else’s. I know it sounds like I’m blaming others for my own issues/mistakes/whatever, but I have spent so much of my life already blaming myself for allowing other people to affect me. Where does my responsibility stop?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I can imagine that many SO's are very concerned about this ... the more its an umbrella the more the cd must face the question..

btw...my wife asked me for many years and i denied it all along...(i thought i was being honest ...i lied to myself quite convincingly)...this complicates matters ALOT....

[Kate Simmons]

I think a lot of people are totally clueless when they are asked to consider anything but the standard binary gender definition. I personally don't focus on "what" a person is in favor of "who" they are. I myself "transitioned" quite some time ago spiritually as I amalgamated all of my feelings and qualities under one aegis, gender notwithstanding. In the end it is what it is I guess. :battingeyelashes::)

[Nadine Spirit]

Unfortunately, it seems that this is really a matter of personal taste and preference. Nobody has the authority, like a king, or shall we say, a queen, to say this terminology is right or this terminology is wrong. The best we can do is respect each other's feelings while trying to be clear about what we mean when we use whatever words we use.

So if I call a stapler a banana that is fine as long I prefer that? Thus you need to respect my feelings that I think a stapler should be called a banana as long as I can be clear about what I mean when I use the words. So if I call the object that joins papers together with a small folded piece of metal, a long curved cylindrical yellow thing that we peel and inside is a whitish piece of edible fruit, then you are fine with that?

Like it or not, words have definitions, regardless of we feel about them and regardless of what we mean when we use them.

And it does not take a king or queen to define them. Generally all it takes is usage among the populace.

[Pat]

I think the message to take from the replies before me is that we don't know what to call ourselves, how can we hope to tell others what term to use?

I agree Transgender is an umbrella term but language evolves without anyone's permission. All I can suggest is that we keep pointing it out TO OTHERS not just to ourselves. ;)

I was amused to read a glossary (http://transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology) that says of crossdressers, "Cross-dresser: A term for people who dress in clothing traditionally or stereotypically worn by the other sex, but who generally have no intent to live full-time as the other gender. The older term "transvestite" is considered derogatory by many in the United States." My amusement stems from "...in the United States." I've always preferred the term "transvestite" and got a strong talking to by someone because I said so.

[NicoleScott]

Read all the responses and see that we, the insiders, aren't in agreement. How can we expect the outsiders to get it right?

[Pat]

So if I call a stapler a banana that is fine as long I prefer that?

C'mon Nadine, you know that's reductio ad absurdum logic. Talking shades of meaning for Transgender .vs. Transsexual when used by the general public is far removed from Stapler .vs. Banana. It's more like complaining people say stapler when they mean Swingline stapler. ("Why if you just say 'stapler' I could hand you a Bostich and be completely within my rights!")

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Ok instead of stapler and banana, lets use man and woman

i'm a woman, you are not... transsexuals are women(mtf) cross dressers and bigendered people are not..

its is not a logic problem. analogies don't do it justice its a meaning of life problem...gender is THE fundamental organizing principle of human society.
sure some people just don't care that much...that's a great way to be ...in some ways i don't care but recent events have really brought this up a notch in the general public...

"we" are not in agreement because "we" are not a "we" except in the sense that we are human beings..you as a cd are simply not an insider with regards to me as a transsexual

transsexuals embrace the gender binary...they flow into it from one binary to the next... this is felt by us at a level that must be felt to even be believed and its why so many cross dressers so casually use terms that deny our existence (not on purpose, not with malice or any ill will)...they just don't understand..

if you truly understood what i went through you would not say these things...

in the end, its very possible that there is nothing that can really be done...its true none of us are kings and queens of terms...and those terms will catch on with people or not... and some very public ts people use transgendered in the most general way.....so there is an unfortunate but pragmatic reality we must face

and those of us that live out every day without being famous will have to deal with that reality...it doesn't mean its right and if cd's understood what i am, they would give me the respect and courtesy of not mislabeling me as a transgendered or bigendered person..

[Katey888]

Nadine - it's a super piccy (and a good - if small - web site behind it...) - it nicely encapsulates for me how transgender can and should be a suitable term to gather these sometime rather disparate groupings together. We should be united in our commonalities rather than divided by our differences, even though most of us accept all our little clusters can face significantly different issues in managing our condition.

I positively like the fact that there is an umbrella term and embrace what that means - but in the same way that not all lesbians or gays like to be grouped with bisexuals (and all other combinations), there will always be some who like to believe they're somehow more exclusive. :) I'm liking too that more of us seem to be more comfortable with the idea that we can be under the umbrella term without the idea that we necessarily have transition in our future... It is a shame that the media can't get it right, but perhaps with more exposure and better informed commentators it can be corrected.

Again, the graphic is great, and we could probably all do worse than print out an illicit copy and use it to explain to others should the need arise... (I am in no way condoning or recommending the illegal reproduction of copyrighted images.. :) The Genderbook, btw, is licensed under the Creative Commons principle so can be legally used in this way. :cheer:)

Let's hope the media comes around quickly... I guess we could all be activists and write to our national and local press and TV..??? Would a few hundred voices make a difference...??? :thinking:

Katey x

[Teresa]

Nadine,
I'm not sure if the media understand the different terms or can't be bothered to find out ! The annoying point of all this is they appear to treat the public with total ignorance, so using any of the " Trans..." terms is enough to give the readers the impression that a man who chooses to wear women's clothes comes under one umbrella !
As we all know the first questions asked are do we want to be a woman or are we gay ? The media does very little to give any further explanation to the variations that exist in our community !

When you look at it in this context we really must applaud Isha for the persistent work and belief in her own identity to bring about the changes with the Canadian Military !
An interesting item on UK tv was a feature on the first TS officer in the British Army only last week, on Friday he was a Sir and on Monday a Ma'am !
I was so surprised my wife watched it without any comment or scathing comments to me after !

[DonnaT]

It is a media thing, but they picked it up from the more outspoken trans women and activists who prefer the term transgender over the term transsexual. And since discussion of being trans has been more and more public, the media's use has become more prevalent.

Much like when the term crossdresser became preferred by many over the term transvestite.

My wife will occasionally bring it up for discussion when a story hits the air about someone being transgender and transitioning. She'll ask, "Didn't you say you are transgender?" Then I have to go into the explanation of the transgender umbrella, etc.

[Dana44]

I saw on another site what to calls us crossdressers as many did not like that term. The Crossdress folks did not want to be called transgender. So a vote was put forth and what came back was that the crossdress person does not like that term crossdresses and if you are not gay. Then the term would be transvestite meaning that a male is in woman's clothes exposing themselves. They all liked that better.

In Houston, every year they have the art festival on Montrose street which is a gay community . The transvestite dressed folk that were there were totally surrounded by men asking them questions. They had the most focus than most of the art. Some of them were totally beautiful. It was site to see.

[Bria]

As always Jorja makes perfect sense. One is transsexual during the transition and when that process is over then one is just woman (mtf) and no longer transanything.

However, that perfect logic throws another complication in to the communication process, try to get the media to understand that and use it correctly.

When I first joined this site, as a cd, I was not comfortable with applying the term transgender to myself, somehow it just didn't seem right or descriptive. Over time I have come to a more comfortable feeling of the term as an umbrella term that includes me. The problem with umbrella term is just what falls under that umbrella? Try and get the media to understand and use it correctly.

My 2 cents.

Hugs, Bria

[reb.femme]

I'm with you Nadine, in noticing a standard generalisation that TG and TS are synonymous. This discussion could go on for ages and I'm not prepared for the usual sword fight that that entails, but I'm happy to be described as either trans or transgendered and explain the subtle differences of TG and TS to people (as I see it) thereafter.

...The Genderbook, btw, is licensed under the Creative Commons principle so can be legally used in this way. :cheer:)Katey x

Spot the person that works in Marketing with the associated legal connotations. :heehee: But a damn good shout from Katey though, being a student of Brit law myself.

Rebecca LLB (Hons) :battingeyelashes:

[Ivy]

As you all explain here are my thoughts. Yes, labels are for canned fruit. That way you know what fruit you are getting. Now I will explain:

Humans have a need to catergorize and place things into compartments. In that we give people that are liken to a specfic way a name. Why? It is what we have been trained to do. It has been pushed further through studies in phsycology and sociology. Everything has to have a label, so that you can fit in it compartment. We are fools when we do this. No person is yhe same as another. We are all unique and interesting in our own right. If you are going to label me, go ahead, my label is IVY and I am beautiful to me

[Nadine Spirit]

Yes Ivy, I have heard the label argument before.

But you do realize that you yourself used labels for things other than fruit right?

As in:
- human
- people
- person
- fools
- compartments
- name
- psychology
- sociology

These things are all just words. Words meant to describe something, not to stuff square people into round holes.

[reb.femme]

Nadine!, are you reading my mind and writing for me? Of course we use labels for convenience to give a quick and easy description of an item and then explain the finer points thereafter, if asked to elucidate.

This also highlights the sword fighting I alluded to earlier. Good luck Miss (oops, label alert) and keep your shield up. :heehee:

Rebecca

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Nadine,
Both words have definitions, thanks to Miriam Webster, or whatever
dictionary you may choose to look them up in, they are there. I don't see one replacing the other ever happening.
Society may get them confused, and not consider the "big picture" when they use either of the two.
But I think as the public gains more knoledge, and hopeful greater acceptance, some new terminology will
come along that may make the differences among the TG community more clear.
As it stands, the TG umbrella does cover us all.
TS has bee around a lot longer than TG (20 some years).
Just sayin' , things change, usually for the better.
Much Love
Kristyn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

ok here's the deal..

stop calling transsexuals transgendered...

if you don't, i will personally tell all your wives that i am transgendered as you call it...and that i've been transgendered since i was 6 and that i got married had kids and then like most transgendered people i "decided" to "go all the way" and transition while my kids were in high school

might as well call the divorce lawyer now...

oh wait wasn't there an entire massive thread filled with cross dressers complaining about all the misinformation spread by us transsexuals about how cd's are really budding transsexuals...

[Badtranny]

Yikes.

Sometimes Transsexual and Transgender are interchangeable and sometimes's they're not. Who cares? It certainly doesn't concern me one way or the other and I don't have a good track record in discussions with people that concern themselves with such things. For example, the word Tranny has now become a slur in some circles. Woe to the broad who tries to police my use of this term, but the word Transsexual is also falling out of favor for the more broadly used Transgender so when will the policing of those terms start?

Here on this forum we have made a distinction, but since I've been a member here, even those distinctions are beginning to be blurred. We now have TS's that don't want to actually transition, and in some cases we have even redefined the word Transition to the extent that someone who is 'transitioning' has no plans to change their name. If we can't even delineate between terms on a forum like this, how in the world do we expect Joe Public to make any distinctions at all?

For those of you who think that owning the word Transgender will make your lives and relationships easier, you're just fooling yourselves. If your wife is conflating Bruce's use of Transgender with your use, then just say "I'm not that kind of transgender", because trying to explain the apparently fine difference between TG and TS so your wife can understand it is an exercise in futility. Isn't it all just a continuum anyway? The prevailing wisdom on this board is that TG is on one end, and TS is on the other, so that being the case, where do you put yourself on the spectrum?

Better question; Where do you put yourself on the spectrum HERE and where do you put yourself in discussions with your wife? If you tell your wife that you are TG and NOT like Bruce, but you come here and make impassioned arguments about how you should be included in the TS discussions then you my friend have bigger problems than Bruce.

The brutal truth is none of these 'labels' have anything to do with real life. For those of us who endure these issues in the light of day, the words allies use to describe us is of little consequence. It's all better than the words I grew up hearing. :-)

[Ivy]

It is hard not to use labels. That is part of my point. It is not the square peg in the round hole, but the right peg in the right hole. That is why I say each of us are different. I am me just as well as you are you. Why label that?

[Marcelle]

Hi Nadine,

For those who think labels are for soup cans . . . hey I resemble that remark :)

Okay, I admit I hate labels even though I use them myself and as I become more public the use of the umbrella term (kind of sounds very Resident Evil . . . nasty Umbrella Corporation) has allowed me to explain to and educate many what TG means to me. Now before anyone goes off half cocked . . . I said means to me, not you, not the other person or the person down the street but to me. :)

Yes, people confuse the terms and when I say I am transgender I get the old . . . so you are like Bruce J . . . going to get the old snip, snip? It is at that point that I educate and explain what the umbrella term, spectrum, whatever you want to call it means. I let them know that on one side you have Cross dressers who enjoy dressing up in whatever suits their fancy and that does it for them. On the other side you have Trans women/men who feel out of sorts with their body in that their birth sex does not match their gender identity and they take measures (not always the same measures) to bring balance to their lives. In between those two points you have a whole host of individuals at varying stages. I (again folks this is me, not you) lie somewhere on the spectrum where at times my gender identity does not match my birth sex and I require the latitude to express that gender difference by dressing and presenting as a woman both in my private and public life. However, my guy side also requires the same latitude. :)

Hugs

Isha.

[Lori Kurtz]

So if I call a stapler a banana that is fine as long I prefer that?
...
Like it or not, words have definitions, regardless of we feel about them and regardless of what we mean when we use them.

... Generally all it takes is usage among the populace.

Absolutely true. But there's widespread--probably unanimous--agreement among the populace about the usages of the words "stapler" and "banana." Usages of the words to describe people like us, on the other hand, are not even agreed upon by us on this site, as this thread demonstrates; much less among the general populace. And for people like us, there is a lot more emotional energy tied to those words than "stapler" and "banana."

The result is that when we use words like "transgender" or "transsexual" or "crossdresser" or "gender non-conforming" or other related words, we can't assume that either the general populace or our own sisters here will understand what we mean. I have no solution to this problem. All I know for sure is that whether we have some agreement among ourselves or not, we should be kind to each other. Who else can we count on to be kind to us?

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

I think this whole thread exemplifies why the problem exists. Since those who experience life outside of "normal" gender associations all want to use their own terms to describe themselves and their point of view, there is no standard definition for Transgender anymore. As has been pointed out, today's media no longer wishes to take the time to explain nuance to an audience with the attention span of a gnat, so they went with the definition provided by a vocal sub-group, transexuals who objected to the term feeling it distracted from the seriousness of their experience. So if anyone is looking to blame anyone for this state of confusion there is enough to go around.

I think Isha's position is best. Let people who hear the word transgender ask if you are planning to transition then take the time to explain the broader meaning and how it applies to you. It can be exhausting and feel like you are having the same conversation over and over again, but it represents an opportunity to build a relatinship with a person that may lead to greater acceptance.

[Ivy]

The point I put, is that we will be labeled in our different, for lack of a word I like, flavors. I see in fighting over words. Have we not all been called things we would not want to remember. I am me you are you. Yes we are different, that is what makes us us. Labels define and divide at the same time. Am I going to go as far as you, no, not right now. Do I dislike you for where you are, at times no, yes at times a twing of envie! All of us have to face each day and deal with what it brings, yes the bad with the good. If we live with a simple rule, that most in the world forget.

My rights end where yours begin!!

[flatlander_48]

It's the equivalent of "black" and "African American." It's the new political correctness without understanding. It just sounds nicer. By the way, my buddy from Jamaica hates "African American" because that umbrella misrepresents him!

No it isn't equivalent. There is nothing inherently wrong with using a hyphenated structure but it devolves into all sorts of dumbass questions like "Is a White Person From Africa an African-American?". All this does is send a potentially useful conversation down a ridiculous and unprofitable path. Sometimes I think people do that on purpose rather than have a substantive discussion.


It comes down to political correctness. The media thinks that by calling a transsexual, transgender, they will not offend anyone. It sounds better. What they do not understand is that today I am a woman, I was a transsexual, and before that I fell into the transgender umbrella somewhere.

For me, it doesn't matter. I transitioned at a time when these terms were just starting to be used. I haven't been either transgender nor transsexual for a very, very long time. Guess what? I am still a woman just like any other. Just don't call me late for dinner! ;)

Political correctness is a myth. The real root of this is the superficial and prudish attitude held in the US regarding sexuality. It makes it very difficult for us to use the word SEX in a conversation without giving rise to prurient interests.

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

The real root of this is the superficial and prudish attitude held in the US regarding sexuality.

The reason I don't like to use the word "transsexual" has nothing to do with prudishness. I'm not a prude. I don't think people in the trans-rights movement are prudes either. And while the attitudes about sexuality in the US are superficial, I don't think that has much to do with it either.

A lot of trans people are rejecting the term "transsexual" for a number of reasons:
1. By it's name, it tends to conflate gender identity / expression with sexual orientation. There are massive issues with this already, and we don't need to add to them.

2. My sex won't change after GCS. I'll sure as hell be a trans woman. I'm still genetically male. I'll still need a prostate exam, although the doctor will have to perform it vaginally. I'll also need a mammogram. Medically, I'm not precisely male, and not precisely female. It sucks, but it's the best science can do. (I'd loved to have done this 30 years ago, and been able to carry a child to term. But that just wasn't in the cards during my lifetime. It's not possible even now.)

3. Trying to define even a concept like "sex" as a binary is part of the problem because of intersexed people. Quite a few of us are also intersexed. It is best to just entirely remove the visible biological characteristics of the person in question from the equation of gender.

4. None of that, what genitals I have, how many hormones I take, or whether I take them, should matter. Look, we can't decide on this forum who's "just a CD", vs. "who's going to transition". So maybe to some people's minds CDs (for example) deserve no legal protection - they are male identified, male bodied, so to hell with them! But you know what? It's really damned hard to differentiate between a CD and a trans woman who's just started her transition, and it is completely unreasonable to force the trans woman to show a note from her doctor every time she wants to pee in a public restroom. So for this reason alone, I'd rather see all of us lumped into one, protected category than divided in cruel and arbitrary ways that would end up hurting people who would define themselves as "transsexual" anyway! Because our interests intersect, and that's good enough for me. (Plus I like CDs and other non-transitioning, non-binary trans people. I think they deserve rights too.)

5. The term "transsexual" was cooked up by cisgender people. Well meaning cisgender people, but still, they didn't have a freaking clue what any of this feels like. They shouldn't get to define us.

6. The focus on medical transition inherent in the term transsexual is problematical, because it creates all sorts of excuses for cis people to tie our identity documentation or other legal matters to our surgical status. This is an intolerable cruelty, and this alone is good reason to never use this term.

I don't actually care if referring to us all under a big umbrella term like "transgender" makes any individual uncomfortable. I don't. Tough. This is bigger than whatever little personal issue you might have with terminology. Look, I don't actually like the fact that people who medically transition like me don't really have a name to use. I actually fit the term "transsexual" pretty well. It feels a little like erasure. At least until I realize that in the bad old days, if you could transition at all, you had a number of hurdles to overcome, all setup by cis people:
- you had to be passable before HRT
- you had to be able to stay employed during transition
- you had to be highly feminine, binary gender aligned
- you had better freaking be straight, or lie about it
- you had better tell them the story they wanted to hear, or the gate would close on you

So no, I don't care a thing for the term "transsexual" anymore. This is an inaccurate term steeped in a horrible history.

[Jenniferathome]

So if I call a stapler a banana that is fine as long I prefer that? ....

Makes one really think about the age old question: "Is that a banana in your pocket?"

[Lorileah]

The main reason for 'labels' as you all call them is communication. It allows people to talk to one another without adding definitions. That's why we use Latin in law and medicine, it's dead an d never changes but if a lawyer speaks to another lawyer using a Latin term, they BOTH have the same reference. If I speak to another medical professional using a Latin term, we BOTH know what I am talking about. Simple.

If we decide we don't want to use a term as it has been agreed upon, we end up...I dunno arguing what a term means? Case in point 40+ posts.

One post said that transsexuals change sex...no we change GENDER. Sex is defined by the genome and in most cases we are XY and that doesn't change (BTW Paula...they need to check the prostate through the vagina? When did it move?"


Another (several) claimed TSs are WOMEN...OK, I'll buy that but why can't you be a TG too? After all, you still have the genome.

Another says that to the general world, the word transgender reads as transsexual and CDs are TVs. and you say either and I say I-ther. But if you use that argument, the majority of people not in the community also thing every CD here is a Drag Queen. and gay.

After surgery, physically I will be a woman...not a female. I think Paula pointed this out well. I will still have the propensity for diseases that males get AND I will be at risk for diseases that females get because of hormone, not genetics. The CDs here won't be at risk for the hormonal but will be for any genetic...So, there is a variance (for you engineers in the audience).

Media may use the word "Transgender" because they don't have all the facts. They may not KNOW if the person had GID or was on hormones or actually considered themselves the opposite GENDER. They don't really care about that distinction unless it is pertinent to whatever story they are telling. In journalism we were taught to write on an 8th grade level because that was the average. Again to MOST people transgender individuals are Drag Queens, fetishists, strange, mentally ill all the above OR they are transitioning. You speak to the lowest common denominator because your audience doesn't have the same point of reference you do.

I am comfortable with being transgender (although that is not correct grammatically) or as a transsexual or as a transitioning person. The use of MtF seems redundant usually because it is obvious WHERE I am going.

So, we get down to this. What DOES it matter? If you get your point across using a slightly incorrect (as far as convention) term it really doesn't

Try this. If I said I have a tumor...you would think????Cancer, right? Yet they aren't the same, Many would think "Malignant" cancer on top of that, and that is even further from being right. OK, here is the way that works "What's the difference between Cancer and Tumor? Tumors are sometimes cancerous but this does not mean that tumors and cancers are synonyms." Not synonyms...In a clinical view transgender and transsexual are NOT synonyms. But they are used interchangeably. Maybe more distinct, remember SAT tests One question was always If A=B and B sometimes = C is A=C?


Have a nice summer vacation, we'll see you in school next fall

[PaulaQ]

Lori, here's what trans bodies / trans selves says about prostate exams for trans women:


If a prostate exam is performed on a trans woman who has had vaginoplasty, a finger inserted into the vagina may offer a better exam than a finger inserted into the rectum because the prostate sits on top of the vagina instead of directly on top of the rectum . Providers may perform this exam in a manner similar to a gynecologic exam for cisgender women: lying with stomach facing up, with feet in adjustable brackets (“ stirrups”), and knees spread slightly apart

[Vickie_CDTV]

This is nothing new, and the gradual move to replace "transsexual" with "transgender" has been happening for a long time. Even the trans community is "guilty" of this.

Why does the media do this? The same reason they use all politically correct language; so they can feel good about themselves for being all inclusive and tolerant and whatnot, despite the fact it really helps no one or accomplishes anything productive.

[kimdl93]

It's simply a matter of the writers making careless use of the terminology. The same thing happens so often here that I have given up on correcting each misuse of the term.

[Nadine Spirit]

Ah yes, careless use of terminology. I think it might have been when I first joined here that I read over the sticky on terms used here and their meanings. When I read transgender defined as an umbrella term, I said, cool that works, and I have seen it defined as such most other places as well.

Btw, great discussion here folks. Thanks to everyone who has joined in. I love discussions that force me to think, consider stuff, and ponder other viewpoints.

[sometimes_miss]

The older term "transvestite" is considered derogatory by many in the United States.
It's not that it's derogitory, but the term was mostly used in the past to refer to a man who wore female clothing either as a sexual turn on for himself or to attract other men. As such, it misrepresented a large percentage of us. So the 'crossdresser' tag became more widely used, at least online since the early 90's. Transvestite is essentially the exact same thing by definition, but how people use it is something else entirely.

So if I call a stapler a banana that is fine as long I prefer that?
As long as it's ok with the stapler and the rest of the bananas! :)

As you all explain here are my thoughts. Yes, labels are for canned fruit. That way you know what fruit you are getting.
Of course, you do know that the connotation 'fruit' in America is a slang for gay, right? It's one reason I use the word food instead of fruit when I use this example.

ok here's the deal..stop calling transsexuals transgendered...
<snip>
oh wait wasn't there an entire massive thread filled with cross dressers complaining about all the misinformation spread by us transsexuals about how cd's are really budding transsexuals...
The whole thing can only be rectified with education. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, which this whole argument exemplifies: When trying to use a more politically correct term without knowing exactly what you are saying it's easy to screw it up royally and wind up saying something completely different from what you want to convey.

It is hard not to use labels.
It's not that it's hard not to, it's that our society insists upon using them. People do not want to have to discuss everything in multiple paragraphs stuck into every sentence they speak or write just to explain one object. They want a term, in one word, that tells the person they're talking to what they're referring to. They want a standard. That's all. What we're going through right now is the same as what blacks are going through with all the african, african american, black, caribbean american, colored, jamaican american, negro, people OF color, and all the other assorted terms that are constantly bandied about in the media. We had one and there was nothing wrong with it until somebody didn't like it. Now no one knows what word/words to use to the extent that you will often see multiple different choices for it being used in the same sentence. I'm white. So is a guy from Moscow. And so is a white guy who's dad and grandparents were born in the middle of the Congo. He's not 'european african'. He's white. Etc.. We don't need another mess like that one. That's why labels are needed, and they need to be generally accurate.

[Pat]

I was wondering if this is something specific to us and then realized there's a perfect analog: cop. To the general public anyone with almost any kind of police authority is a cop. It doesn't matter if it's a patrolman, a detective or an FBI Special Agent. And I'll bet the FBI agents probably feel pretty strongly that they've distinguished themselves and don't deserve to be summed up as "cops." And there are a ton of cops -- state police, postal inspectors, railroad police, tribal police -- all different. But cop is an umbrella term; a collective noun used loosely by the uninitiated, but I'll bet refined and redefined unceasingly by the people it refers to. ;)

[Megan G]

Here is an article I read today that applies to this thread. It's all about cross dressers being lumped under the transgender umbrella and the effects of it on the transgender (or transsexual, however you want to say it) rights movement.

http://montrealgazette.com/life/redefining-transgenderism-cross-dresser-as-a-derogatory-term

In the article it points out one of the reasons that a bill had been stalled here in Canada regarding washroom rights.

Megan

[DonnaT]

http://scroll.in/article/730731/whats-in-a-word-the-challenges-of-transgender


Transgender is a relatively new word. So when an academic seeks to create a transgender historical archive, complications abound.

[Karen RHT]

What an interesting and thought provoking thread this has turned into. I'd like to thank one and all for your replies. Personally, I'm not one to split hairs, nor am I easily offended when innocently "labelled" incorrectly. Very difficult for the general population to "get it right" so to speak. It's difficult indeed to avoid the use of "labels," especially in the media. As long as the intent of the label is sincere and respectful, perhaps we should overlook small inaccuracies within it?? Just a thought.


Karen

[Nigella]

Everyone will use a term that they feel comfortable with. This forum differentiates by accepting that Transgender is an umbrella term for the whole spectrum, whilst Transsexual is the term used for those are transitioning from their assigned gender and will then live their new gender on a permanent basis.

In the UK, the government have made the differential within their equalities legislation (https://www.gov.uk/equality-act-2010-guidance) by specifically by using the term Transsexual as a protected characteristic (https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights/types-of-discrimination), this has been further refined by specifically
identifying (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7) their interpretation of a Transsexual person.


... i exclaimed that here we even have the TS section, one of the mods is TS,

I would suggest you have a read of the postings and profiles of both named moderators of the TS section, both of us are Transsexuals, as is another moderator on the forum

[Jocelyn Quivers]

It's the equivalent of "black" and "African American." It's the new political correctness without understanding. It just sounds nicer. By the way, my buddy from Jamaica hates "African American" because that umbrella misrepresents him!

Come to think of it I get confused by that one. Go figure, I miss the simplest times of childhood when I was "black" and that was it, simple easy to remember etc. Now I get confused on what's the proper politically correct term for me now, or use the terms interchangeably ex "whose that hot news anchor on the 6 O clock news, you know the black- oops I mean African American lady??, ditto for friends, etc who seem to feel afraid about what term to use.


No it isn't equivalent. There is nothing inherently wrong with using a hyphenated structure but it devolves into all sorts of dumbass questions like "Is a White Person From Africa an African-American?". All this does is send a potentially useful conversation down a ridiculous and unprofitable path. Sometimes I think people do that on purpose rather than have a substantive discussion.

Political correctness is a myth. The real root of this is the superficial and prudish attitude held in the US regarding sexuality. It makes it very difficult for us to use the word SEX in a conversation without giving rise to prurient interests.

DeeAnn LOL, I've also had several of buds during our late nite, we're bored discussions come up with the "no offense bro but Charlize Theron is more "African American" than you are." To which I respond with the "technically you are right but that's "Afrikaner", "Boer" etc, and you guys now seem to have no clue what I'm talking about, and then we move on to standard Xbox One is superior to PS4 debate and divisive/important issues. Which is why I vote for a new confusing term, just further to complicate things, maybe create more division, or balkanization of America with the term. Sub-Saharan African American! Definition Black Chick/Dude!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pat]

Here is an article I read today that applies to this thread.

You would think, given the guy's claim that he's been investigating the topic since the 1990s, that he'd have learned a little more about crossdressers...

[Tina_gm]

Pc terminology always amuses me. Literally the same group think of people will trend words and terms then deem those same words and terms derogatory.

Me- I don't ever get fired up over any term because in a few years it will be deemed derogatory anyway. I cd, and have other ways in which I express my femininity. Since I am not transitioning, according to the latest group think trend, I am out of the TG club. Oh well, I will still do what I do and feel what I feel, whatever it is called these days.

[Megan G]

You would think, given the guy's claim that he's been investigating the topic since the 1990s, that he'd have learned a little more about crossdressers...

Actually that "Guy" is a trans woman that has transition years ago from a quick search of her name...

Megan

[Lexi_83]

people beginning to reference and assume that if one is transgender then one is going to transition. //A lot of accepting people I know seem much more comfortable in thinking of me as transexual, although they say transgender. The idea that sexuality is not binary and that you might be somewhere on a continuum tends to make them very uncomfortable. My ex-wife OTOH was much more comfortable referencing transgender. Most people seem titillated by transgender but aren't necessarily interested in understanding.

Doesn't help that different people use different names: my parents, for example, used "queer." A much worse choice.....

[mykell]

I would suggest you have a read of the postings and profiles of both named moderators of the TS section, both of us are Transsexuals, as is another moderator on the forum

my apologies Nigella i just saw your use of part of my post and i have gone and made corrections to my post, one of the hosts at my support event was FtM and seemed irritated that i used the term transexual, that was the point i intended to make with my post and apologize if i offended anyone.....that was the reason for my post as i was surprised that the term was offensive and felt i had insulted some there....when i used the term mods i my original post their were two hosts running the meeting.... the meetings are private and i was trying not to give too much detail.

[flatlander_48]

Come to think of it I get confused by that one. Go figure, I miss the simplest times of childhood when I was "black" and that was it, simple easy to remember etc. Now I get confused on what's the proper politically correct term for me now, or use the terms interchangeably ex "whose that hot news anchor on the 6 O clock news, you know the black- oops I mean African American lady??, ditto for friends, etc who seem to feel afraid about what term to use.


Much Ado About NOTHING.

You've been made to question sound logic.

K.I.S.S. is a good principle to follow...

DeeAnn

[Alex!]

In my lay opinion, "transgendered" and "transexual" are not the same thing, but sloppy use of these and related terms has confused the issue. It is somewhat excusable, because a good deal of the gendered and sexual world have been hidden due to social norms. This sort of thing does matter in terms of law and policy, however. As the glorious diversity of these spectra emerge, folks are trying to make sense of it all. Just a few years ago, I remember learning of asexual people - I had no idea! I love learning more about how complex people and populations can be.

I do think crossdressing is a wide set of behaviors that transect or overlap the gender and sex spectra. As such, I do not believe it is correct to refer to crossdressers as transgendered, since many, including me, would not identify as such.

But, as you say, labels and their meaning aren't everyone's favorite concern.

[AnnieMac]

Label terms and the English language are funny things sometimes, often just in tone. Some words sound harsher or even funnier than others. I heard a stand-up comic once describe that he uses cities Like Peoria, Pittsburgh and Cleveland in his jokes, simply because they sound funnier than say New York, Miami, Denver, simply because of the rhythm of speech. I always think the term gay sounds a little nicer than, homosexual, or Lesbian (although gay is usually used for males). But I wish we as CDs had a better sounding and feeling name to refer to ourselves as. I still think transvestite and crossdresser, aren't particularly my favorites either and still sound a little creepy (maybe used on too many Jerry Springer Shows perhaps). Transgendered, sounds nicer than transsexual.

In fact along the acceptability chart these days, I think someone who is described as being transgendered, is usually more accepted than a cross dresser , because it is usually assumed they have some sort of homornal, or genetic make-up that makes them want to BE females, when cross dressers are just deviants to a degree with a fetish, which we all know is not true in most cases. Like its OK because they have a medical problem, they didn't choose to be that way like cross dressers do.


How the future will go down will probably be like this. Eventually a transgendered (transexual) person will become more common place and accepted, much like the status gays have now. And that will eventually drag us cross dressers, if you will, along with that, to a very slow upward climb to acceptability. Be cool some day to see someone point to a CD and say, "what a cute outfit" rather than OMG a guy who wears a dress?

And also, like I agreed with Alex in another thread, I feel more Bi-gendered than transgendered. So I don't feel I total fit under that umbrella either
-Annie

[flatlander_48]

Personally, I see no need to be polite because what people are doing is reducing us to splinters. At a time when we SHOULD be coming together, we're trying our best to separate ourselves. Further, we have NO basis for complaining about the general populace being confused about WHO we are until WE get some clarity. Seeing 37 different notions of what a crossdresser is doesn't help anyone...

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

At a time when we SHOULD be coming together, we're trying our best to separate ourselves.

DeeAnn

:yt:

Anytime anyone says "I don't want to be part of your..." I hear "here I am an easy target because there is one of me and hundreds of you". I hear "I am not someone who needs protection because I am not part of that world." I hear "Leave me alone, what you are going through doesn't concern me and how I live" until...it does History of minority groups has shown that by causing infighting, those in charge can keep control easier.


From the referenced article
"It may be time to remove the term “cross-dresser” from transgenderism, and from society all together, and give men the right — and the legal protection — to wear what they want."

Maybe IF men would actually grow some and quit being afraid of themselves, we wouldn't need "legal" protection. But they won't because they feel like they are "different". If men really wanted to have the right and protection, then being in a larger mass would help. Gays did it, Blacks (sorry but what word do we use?) did it. Women did it.

Transgenders won't because men are afraid (go ahead deny it) of things that go bump in the night. Yes society looks down on a man who presents as transgender because you don't get a group together to say "That's wrong" instead you say"Well I am not like they are so really I am not part of what you are against but still I can't be whatever because you won't let me."

The ONLY way men will get the right to wear (aw geeze technically they ALREADY have the right, they just don't exercise it) what they want is to stand up, join together and make it happen

(BTW the article is weak at best)

[Isabella Ross]

I actually thought the article was pretty lame as well, Lorileah.

[flatlander_48]

In reference to that article, Utopia is a wonderful place. The problem is that it is HIGHLY likely that none of us will be around to see it. The conditioning that we received growing up male wasn't developed overnight. We're talking about decade after decade, generation after generation. To undo all this conditioning is not the work of a moment.

Certainly we are afraid. Too many things hang in the balance for MANY of us: our families, our homes, our employment and our place in the communities where we live. Reluctance to go out and wave your panties can be easily understood. So yes, Fear is usually what keeps humans from doing something stupid.

[Alex!]

Isabella, I respectfully disagree. In fact, the term is not universally accepted at all. This is the entire point. I also don't feel my position is a "disservice to those who fought long and hard..." Discussion of this topic, even though it may drive some people crazy, is important and should be encouraged. I think some of the language used in this subject is obsolete, and this matters not just for those seeking terms in a journey of self-understanding, but in the development of policy and law.

But, I'm just one person and I really have no interest in being any type of advocate for this or related causes. There are many more willing and talented folks than me capable of fulfilling this kind of role. So, it's cool if we disagree - I think that disagreement reveals underlying truths and I may be wrong about what words to use. But I do know that I am definitely a man, inside and out. Alex is the result of a sexual fetish that emerged when I was a young teen :)

I am reminded that there are many examples of "universally accepted" labels for human beings that have been wrong, sometimes with tragic consequences. "Transgendered" may be such an example.

[ReluctantDebutant]

Ok I guess I'll help muddy those waters some more.

While I will accept transgender as an umbrella term where cross-dressers, transsexuals and the rest fall under. To me the term doesn't really fit what I do as a cross-dressers. I wore women's clothing, It was fun. while there was a lot of self reflection as to why I did it, my sense of my own gender didn't waiver. I was dressed as a woman but felt like a man. It felt fun to dress as a woman but it felt wrong to identify myself as a woman. It is hard for me to think that just because of a wardrobe choice my gender was now some how in transition. To believe that is to give credence to the idea that a man in a dress is less of a man or some how loses his manhood. I don't believe that.

To call transgender as an umbrella term doesn't seem right either it is more of a corral were someone penned in a bunch of miscellaneous barnyard animals. Sure technically they are all barnyard animals but a pig is different than a chicken, which is different from a sheep which is not the same as a cow. To some they might be categorized as farm animals but they all have different needs and demand different care. It isn't a one size fits all. And they are not likely to unite and declare "four legs good two legs bad" :)

[flatlander_48]

From what I've seen here over the last several years, it looks like this (no exact hierarchy intended):



People who underdress, but never leave home
People who dress but never leave home
People who underdress and leave home
People who dress and leave home
People who dress and leave home maybe 2 or 3 times a year
People who dress and have extensive social interactions while dressed
People who dress for fetishistic purposes
People who live 24/7 as females but who have no interest in transitioning
People who want to live as females 24/7 and want to transition, but cannot
People who are living 24/7 as females and are in the process of transitioning or have finished


These are all the shades that I can up with in a couple of minutes. I'm sure that someone somewhere has voiced additional variations of these. For my purposes, I would claim ALL of them under the big tent of Transgender as they have ALL crossed the line in some way. Anything less is just splitting hairs...



It is hard for me to think that just because of a wardrobe choice my gender was now some how in transition. To believe that is to give credence to the idea that a man in a dress is less of a man or some how loses his manhood. I don't believe that.

Good, because that's not true. How we really are in terms of identification is already in place, but sometimes it takes a long time to discover and realize it. Whatever our internal make up is has already been determined.


To call transgender as an umbrella term doesn't seem right either it is more of a corral were someone penned in a bunch of miscellaneous barnyard animals. Sure technically they are all barnyard animals but a pig is different than a chicken, which is different from a sheep which is not the same as a cow. To some they might be categorized as farm animals but they all have different needs and demand different care.

True, but consider the difference between farm animals and sea creatures. This would be analogous to people who present as their assigned gender at birth and those who present as something different. And yes, pigs, chickens and sheep all have different needs and function very differently. Similarly, crossdressers, transsexuals and whoever is in between all have different needs and function very differently.

The analogy is the same; you just didn't carry it far enough...

DeeAnn

[Nadine Spirit]

Good summation of my thoughts DeeAnn! Totally agree.

[melanie206]

This thread has got me thinking hard about what gender feels like. When I try to think what it might feel like to be a woman I then immediately say to myself, well, what does it feel like to be man. I haven't a clue. I know it feels good to be dressed, somehow correct at least in the moment. So, in considering the topic in this thread, I wonder what crossdressers, who make no claim of gender variance ( all man ) are thinking and feeling when they are dressed.

[Isabella Ross]

Alex...of course you're a man. Just as I am. Regardless of the nature of our compulsion that we have to wear women's clothes, sexual or otherwise, it's that compulsion that makes us transgendered. Being transgendered doesn't somehow mean we aren't men. Is this why you're having such problems with the term? When you put lingerie or a dress on (and you have many beautiful dresses!), you're still a man, but you aren't trying to appear as a man, are you? Instead, you're expressing a gender identity of a woman. And this is why most standard definitions of transgendered are like that of Miriam-Websters: "of, relating to, or being a person (as a transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth." But again, to reinforce, being transgendered as we are does not mean we are not men. Perhaps this helps? As for the term transgender being an example of a "'universally accepted' labels for human beings that have been wrong, sometimes with tragic consequences", why on earth would that be the case? What evidence to you have to suggest it? It's an excellent, non-offensive, sensitive term that we should be proud of, not running away from.

[ReluctantDebutant]

I wonder what crossdressers, who make no claim of gender variance ( all man ) are thinking and feeling when they are dressed.

It can sometimes take a while to realize that when you are dressed it is simply fun a pleasure that one is feeling. that one has these feeling because dressing makes the individual feel that way. One starts to learn that most women don't share those feelings while dressed. That one has no true reference point for "feeling like a woman". That feeling pleasure dress does not equal feeling like a woman. That being dressed and made up fully doe not translate into comfort or desire with "behaving feminine" or engaging in "feminine activities". That in the end it was all about the dress after all and not a metamorphosis into womanhood.

[flatlander_48]

Good summation of my thoughts DeeAnn! Totally agree.

Thank You, ma'am...

You know, the way it sits for me is that I really feel disappointed when I hear/see people say "I'm not transgender because I don't do ABC" or "I'm not a crossdresser because I do XYZ". I'd like to think that we as a community are more understanding and have more insight and information than the population at large. But, it seems that isn't the case. It's sad because we can do a whole lot better than we have. As I've said before, how can we realistically expect the general population to understand us if we are so fractious on our own?

DeeAnn

[ReluctantDebutant]

The problem is, DeeAnn, this "community" is an artificial construct cooked up by sociologists in some think tank somewhere without heed to whether or not a cross-dresser, transsexual, genderqueer, etc. had the similar outlooks, motivations, desires, upbringings and so on. We were al unceremoniously dumped under this Umbrella "transgender" without being consulted. It might as well have made the category "people who wear clothing not designed for their birth gender". It is as if they lumped a people into a category of "those who read books" without looking closely at the different genre of books people read.

This isn't to say that the groups in the transgender umbrella should be opposed to each other. But how on earth can you expect lock step uniformity among this group, when you have one part coming from the serious position of being trapped in their wrong gendered body and another part just gets a thrill from wearing satin lace panties from time to time? Those two are going to a very different life experiences and outlooks on the world in general. For one it might be key to their life the other may see it as a frivolous pass time. Chances are they are not going to agree on the nature of transgenderism or its importance. I don't think the group hold any personal grudges against the others it is just so hard to find common ground when all the groups start form a wide array of points.

[flatlander_48]

However you cut it, the common thread is crossing the boundary that separates one gender from another. That's what you see. Anything else: opinions, thoughts, perceptions, histories, etc. you have to ask about, but presentation is visible.

And no, consulting us would not have helped. I doubt we would be able to sift through the list I presented on the previous page and more. If we cannot agree here, what difference would you think being asked would do?

DeeAnn

[ReluctantDebutant]

So clothes make the man, or transgender as it were?

[flatlander_48]

The visuals are the result that you see. However, something happened internally to illicit that behavior. Note that it is possible to appear feminine in male clothing. It is all in how you put it together. It isn't the clothes per se; it is what they represent.

[Nadine Spirit]

this "community" is an artificial construct cooked up by sociologists in some think tank somewhere without heed to whether or not a cross-dresser, transsexual, genderqueer, etc. had the similar outlooks, motivations, desires, upbringings and so on.

But how on earth can you expect lock step uniformity among this group

I think the bigger problem is not our community being an artificial construct but the people within the community not wanting to be associated with others within the community. Like your opinion that somehow by being grouped together there is an expectation of lock step uniformity. Personally I don't see any demand to be the same as anyone else within this group. I kind of think that was my initial concern. Just because I identify as transgender does not mean that I should automatically be assumed to be included in a subset of that group. But I have no problem with being included within that larger category.

Don't make the false assumption that just because someone is within a category that it makes everyone the same within that category. Not all lesbians, or homosexuals, or bisexuals, or car enthusiasts, or gamblers, or white people, or fire fighters, or soccer players, or ________ are the same with the same outlooks, etc. Even though we are included under larger groups, we are all each individuals. It does us no harm to be considered as part of a larger group. It actually can be quite helpful. Generally to get rights within a society you need to have enough members of the group.

[Pat]

Actually that "Guy" is a trans woman that has transition years ago from a quick search of her name...

OK, how does that change things?? (I was really using 'guy' in its non-gender specific mode. It's fair in modern usage.) -- but going back and reading my comment, I see i used "he" twice so clearly I didn't read the byline and made the assumption the author was male. Sorry. Though again, it doesn't change my reaction to the article.

"How many so-called “cross-dressers” use the transgender label as an excuse so they can wear the clothes they want in public?"

Let me restate my objection:

You would think, given her claim that she's been investigating the topic since the 1990s, that she'd have learned a little more about crossdressers...

[flatlander_48]

Given the spectrum from occasional crosssdressers in the privacy of their own homes to post-op transsexuals, and every subtlety in between, how could there ever be "lock step uniformity"? The variations are infinite, but when we communicate to the outside world, all that does is cause confusion. That is why a simple pared down approach is better: crosssdressers at one end, transsexuals at the other with variations in between. That is as simple as it gets.

When people attempt to cover every shade between the 2 ends, I would have to question their motives. They are not interested in sending a clear message to the outside world.

[Katey888]

There are some good and new points being made here - and so politely too! :D I think this one stands out for me and I'd love to hear some answers from those who fit this description.... this is one of those questions that should get right to the meat of something:


I know it feels good to be dressed, somehow correct at least in the moment. So, in considering the topic in this thread, I wonder what crossdressers, who make no claim of gender variance ( all man ) are thinking and feeling when they are dressed.

This is why I am quite content in the belief that I reside under the TG umbrella - I 'feel' more feminine... I won't say I feel like a woman, because I don't, but the presentation aligns with something in me that desires to be seen as feminine or female, even though I am not a woman, and I can only understand that to be related to my (and our collective) gender quirk... :thinking:

Nice question Melanie - I'm going to make a note of that for future use and I dearly hope someone will try to answer it... :)

Katey x

[Lorileah]

Being part of a community doesn't mean you are all clones. A community can just be people who have similar interests and goals.

So many CDs here bemoan that they can't go out, or that they can't dress because their wives don't like it (or bosses or dogs whatever). That they feel marginalized by the world. And yet, when the opportunity arises for something to change, they scream they don't want to play in that sand box.

Fact, no one except your mind has even made a rule that says that men cannot wear dresses or skirts (at least in the countries represented in this forum). Fact, because you fear being different, you hide it. Fact, if tomorrow fashion all ove the US said Men's dresses are the new in thing" 99% here would cry that they didn't want that either.

But back to the community aspect. In the 70's farm workers were being abused by farm owners. Low pay, poor working conditions, no or substandard housing. Many were from Mexico, some from other Latin American countries. All shared a language, skin tone usually and a desire to get ahead in life. The Mexicans didn't like the Guatemalans who didn't like the Hondurans who hated the New Mexicans. But in order to get better lives, better working conditions, money, health care, they banded together. They put their differences aside. It helped thy had a common nemesis, slave driving farmers, but they fought together.

Do we really need a Cesar Chavez, or Martin Luther King Jr or Susan B Anthony to come along to get us to stand together? It is so easy for most here to just disappear when thing get tough. Thus the I don't wanna be associated with....crowd. You let others lead the way but you are very happy to reap the rewards. You won't take part in the losses though. How nice is that.

The article really doesn't say anything that is earth shaking. It is at best a weak essay. The writer doesn't address the answers to the issues but instead tries to get sympathy, without result, from a small group of people. Just think, if that group of people was 100 fold larger, the message would be heard louder.

You can complain about the sand in your shorts or you can do something about it.

[Tina_gm]

Lorileah, you are ultimately right about what you are saying as far as be the change you want to see. Since I am one who has decided that it is not in my best interest with the overall life I have to "play in the sandbox", I do not get too bent up over whatever terms, names, laws are being pushed or thwarted. Not that I am without opinion mind you, but it would be hypocritical of me to whine loudly about any misunderstandings, being poorly treated or just plain ignorance and lack of knowledge while not attempting to right any of it. I have to therefor accept the self imposed limitations. Perhaps it was the many mistakes I made early on in not disclosing my gender issues... I have decided to accept the consequences of this. for me that just means my wife is not comfortable enough to view me dressed, and has limited acceptance of it overall. But, I was at least smart enough or perhaps lucky enough to find someone who is willing to at least give it a good shot in opening their mind as my wife has. She actually gives me plenty of time to dress, almost daily for an hour or two, and will listen and be involved in discussions from time to time.

Back to the TG/TS/ T1000 issue. I do think personally that TG is or should be considered a spectrum, within it the variations from casual partial dresser to fully identifying opposite birth sex. That which we call TS. Maybe the media just has too much of a PC hang up on the word SEX, or any variation of it. I really do not care ultimately... I can be "just a CDer"... and there doesn't really have to be a considered spectrum, for the sake of PC. I do think though that it would hamper a better understanding of CDers and that without knowledge of what the difference of a CDer vs TG/TS is, which may be in degrees..... Warm water, hot water.... hot enough it boils and then , but it is still H2O... Same stuff, liquid or gas state... People overall should be able to identify themselves correctly and have something to be able to identify themselves with. A comfortable out CDer who wants no part of transition should be able to express themselves, and have people understand the difference between them and someone who does want to or is/has transitioned. If they are looking for a partner and the partner is ok with CDing, but not ok with someone who is or will transition, accurate knowledge without having to tip toe so crazily due to current PC wording and terminology. Maybe the TG and CDer will accomplish this.... but many CDers, myself included have a range of other feminine expressions, which are not directly clothing. (a big reason why I feel CDers and TS is about degrees) Hopefully with more media exposure there will also be more accurate knowledge being presented as well. I do not care what the terms that are used are so long as it can be done so accurately.

[Nadine Spirit]

... I really do not care ultimately... I can be "just a CDer"... and there doesn't really have to be a considered spectrum, for the sake of PC. I do think though that it would hamper a better understanding of CDers and that without knowledge of what the difference of a CDer vs TG/TS is, which may be in degrees...

I think there would be a better understanding of CDers if it was clear that CDing is under the TG umbrella or within the spectrum of gender variances rather then a totally separate thing. It is inescapable that there is not one type of CDer. Even within CDing it is a spectrum.

[flatlander_48]

PEOPLE: GIVE UP THE IDIOTIC NOTION OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!!

If someone's name is BOB, do you call him GEORGE?

[ReluctantDebutant]

First off I would just like to reiterate that I accept that as a cross-dresser I am in a group that falls under the transgender umbrella. And I have no problem being associated with the other groups under that umbrella. But as the blue man with the hat in The Gender Book says "No one gets to tell you how to identify you. You get to decide that for yourself." And I don't identify myself as transgender simply because I don't feel transgender. I feel that cross-dressing is about wardrobe not my gender. What good would the term do me? I have seen transsexuals not indentify as transgender but rather the gender they switched to, and good for them. It is very liberating to not be tied down by groups or labels. Terms like transgender or cross-dresser bring with them a lot of baggage that is best not to be carried around everywhere. I see that as the main reason why so many underneath this TG umbrella want to get out of this term, and they have that right. Labels are too restricting for many which is why we have these label debates on a regular basis.

Another reason we debate labels an terminology in the TG community is that the ground continues to shift. As with the OP that the media is now using transgender in replacement of transsexual, what does this mean? It might just be temporary lapse or it could now start to evolve that way. Who knows, after watching transvestite turn to cross-dresser and transvestite becoming a negative word, and there have been some to say cross-dresser is too negative and a new term is needed. All I know is words seem to change around here quite a lot which would be another good reason for a person not to identify to closely with one the meaning could become obsolete on them.

I am glad to see we are in agreement that we are not "clones" in "lock step" perhaps using lockstep was to heavy a term but it does appear to me that some are trying to yoke a herd of cats to the cart of transgenderism and its causes. There seem to be a few that scratch their heads in puzzlement as they watch the harnessed cats start to head in multiple direction or just lay down. And there as some who bemoan the fact that a couple little rascals slip out of their harness and go scampering off into the field to chase a butterfly or something more content in living a life of fun then pulling a wagon.

Now RD no one said anything about causes. Really? then what is all this talk about a CD MLK, a need to send a clear message to the outside world, and those that don't have questionable motives, getting rights in society, and those that eschew the TG label are doing a disservice to the TG sisters who have come before us, and lamenting the fact we cannot get the "general population to understand us if we are so fractious on our own". Surely the TG community is a free one based on all of us partaking in clothing not designed for our gender and one where a variety of ideas on the nature and meaning of being transgender can be had.

And what would this cause be? Why would we need some T'Ger Chavez? As Lorileah pointed out the only thing that is preventing CDing men is themselves. I wouldn't even know where to begin to craft legislation to emancipate a person from themselves. And it would be hubris to think he needed emancipation because many are just exercising their independent will to cross-dress or not to cross-dress. No government authority has ever prevented me from purchasing women's clothes or wearing them out in public. I have never heard of any western citizen getting locked up for getting a SRS nor have I heard of any movement to get that freedom. It would seem that the TG community for some time has been able to legally express their desired gender. The opposition to the TG community does not come from government but from other groups and individuals who have disagreements with them. As long as these disagreements don't end in assault, theft, or murder the two side will have to just disagree. If it does there are already laws against assault, theft, and murder. You can't legislate for people to like you or agree with you.


I find it ironic that there are some that are so adamant about being sticklers to Dictionary definition orthodoxy of the term transgender. While the transgender phenomenon got started by breaking out of the dictionary definition of man and woman.

I suppose a new group is forming instead of gendernoncomformist it will be transgendernoncomformist :D

[mechamoose]

So many CDs here bemoan that they can't go out, or that they can't dress because their wives don't like it (or bosses or dogs whatever). That they feel marginalized by the world. And yet, when the opportunity arises for something to change, they scream they don't want to play in that sand box.

That is the fear talking. Fear of being rejected. Fear of being ridiculed. Fear for getting HURT. Those are all legitimate fears, but at some point you have to swallow hard and go ANYWAY.


Fact, no one except your mind has even made a rule that says that men cannot wear dresses or skirts (at least in the countries represented in this forum). Fact, because you fear being different, you hide it. Fact, if tomorrow fashion all over the US said Men's dresses are the new in thing" 99% here would cry that they didn't want that either.

Which I see as 'accept ME' vs 'I am now in the accepted zone'. Again, perfectly natural.

<good quotes>


You can complain about the sand in your shorts or you can do something about it.

We must be our own best advocates. WE put up with stuff because THEY don't get it. THEY won't get it until we don't back down.

I go to the store in a skirt, painted toes and pretties, while sporting a bull frame and a beard. I am ME, dammit. If someone wants to confront me over that, then I have made the decision to have that confrontation.

I guess it comes down to that, the willingness to have that confrontation. If you still feel unsafe enough to need to be small and protect yourself, then ok.. I will have your back in any way I can. But I have to say that you don't HAVE to do that! It is about confidence and trust in yourself. Poker is all about position and bluffing. They want to see if you *blink*.

Don't blink. Don't apologize for being yourself. Please.

<3

- MM

[flatlander_48]

What I believe:



The majority of crossdressers have a touch of gender dysphoria. I don't buy that the lure of the clothes by itself is enough to get most to dress. If it was just about the clothes, why do people have buy, purge, buy, purge cycles? That suggests that there is a basic guilt for something that they are compelled to do.
Current debates about transsexuals using restroom facilities consistent to their presentation has a knock-on effect for crossdressers. If this never gets worked out, we will be forced to use men's restrooms while dressed or whiz behind a tree or whatever. We have a vested interest in this.
Since we do not have a united front and a common set of definitions, it's hard to call out the media when they misuse terms such as transgender. Who would correct them? Trying to splinter off in 37 different varieties does NOT serve us well.
How do we get the general public to understand what we are about if we cannot understand and agree within our own community? If not, we can only accept the misinformation (accidental AND purposeful) that exists in the general population. We have no basis for complaint.
While there may be no crossdressing-specific statutes, if law enforcement wishes to make life difficult for crossdressers, any number of generalized laws will do. It is very easy.
To my way of thinking, ANYONE who dresses in such a manner as to cross from the assigned gender at birth to the opposite gender IS Transgender. Motivations are immaterial. Durations are immaterial. Goals are immaterial. Evidently, ones desire to do this is stronger than the need to support accepted gender-specific practices of dress.


DeeAnn

[mechamoose]

DeeAnn,

I could not agree with you more, honey.

Nothing else matters if you do not believe in yourself.

If you/we have doubts, then our predators will feast on that. We have every right to be here, we have every right to claim our space. That is 'free cheese' unless we stand up otherwise.

I am SO sad that so many of us don't have the room to be 'glorious' and sweep aside all this crap. We are *blessed* people, not 'broken'people.

I guess I'm just sad that so many of us feel like we are 'broken people'.

<3

- MM

[Candice Mae]

I seen this thread earlier and have been thinking about this topic on and off throughout the day. I do agree that CDs should have their spot under the TG umbrella. But in my opinion clothes do not define or effect a persons gender, after all they are just material items made by people. Gender is defined in two parts physically and mentally, the physical part can be changed to co-inside with the mental part to make TS's who they are in mind and body. To me some one that is a CIS gendered male and wears a dress and acts in his mind "Feminine" is as much TG as a cat is a dog. If there is no gender dysphoria is the person really TG? Or just an actor/actress wearing a costume and playing a role? Some CD's may like to think that their need to dress runs deeper, but in the end it is usually just for sexually gratification.

[AnnieMac]

Yeah, but perhaps we CDrs are in a little denial because for most of us crossdressing is much more than just wardrobe. We get wigs, breast forms, wear make-up, perfume, nails, so we want to present as females to ourselves, if we are closeted, and be seen as females to the public, if we are out. hence all the concern about passing. So there is a little more going on here than just fabric color and feel. My CD may be deeper than even I care to admit. There is the girl inside that ebbs and flows at times. That's a gender issue not a fashion issue.

[mechamoose]

But in my opinion clothes do not define or effect a persons gender, after all they are just material items made by people. Gender is defined in two parts physically and mentally, the physical part can be changed to co-inside with the mental part to make TS's who they are in mind and body.

And there I am totally in your corner.

But it isn't about clothes...


To me some one that is a CIS gendered male and wears a dress and acts in his mind "Feminine" is as much TG as a cat is a dog.



I'm sorry Hon, I have to disagree. I'm a full-on bull stud who cares about drapes. Identity isn't a light subject. We are 'messing with the machinery', honey. We are mixing modes, crossing streams, confusing mundanes.

This has less to do with desire, as much at it has to do with who we *care* about and who we want on the end of our bits. You gotta LIKE someone before you want more, yes? If you LIKE them, then do you really care what bits (you or they) have? I don't care how hot you are, I don't care how you present, I don't care how FERTILE you display.

If I'm not into you, it doesn't matter.

I'm a 6'2", 265# XY who feels more at home in a skirt and cami than shorts and a T. I have pierced ears, I paint (all) my nails, I have long hair and a cropped beard. I wear mascara. I advise my wife on what presents well, she doesn't 'get' it without me. She is a guy in a girl-bear body. She just sees the 'bear' part.

I can only lust-rail critters I CARE about.

What gender am I? (Most days, I don't know myself)

You tell me, sweetie,

<3

- MM

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn,

I could not agree with you more, honey.

Nothing else matters if you do not believe in yourself.

If you/we have doubts, then our predators will feast on that. We have every right to be here, we have every right to claim our space.

MM:

Thanks!

I firmly believe this is true: In the absence of information, people make up their own.

Since we as a community have never come together and put our flag in the ground, folks in the media just went off on their own and picked what made sense to them. Unfortunately, that doesn't do us any good and it will be even more difficult in the future to get terms corrected.


I seen this thread earlier and have been thinking about this topic on and off throughout the day. I do agree that CDs should have their spot under the TG umbrella. But in my opinion clothes do not define or effect a persons gender, after all they are just material items made by people.

CM:

Clothes are the medium of expression. The clothes project the reality that the person is trying to pass along.


Yeah, but perhaps we CDrs are in a little denial because for most of us crossdressing is much more than just wardrobe. We get wigs, breast forms, wear make-up, perfume, nails, so we want to present as females to ourselves, if we are closeted, and be seen as females to the public, hence all the concern about passing. So there is a little more going on here than just fabric color and feel. My CD may be deeper than even I care to admit. There is the girl inside that ebbs and flows at times. That's a gender issue not a fashion issue.

AM:

I agree. There is likely more going on than just the fabric...

DeeAnn

[Candice Mae]

And there I am totally in your corner.

But it isn't about clothes...



I'm sorry Hon, I have to disagree. I'm a full-on bull stud who cares about drapes. Identity isn't a light subject. We are 'messing with the machinery', honey.

I get a serious case of 'helium heels' around my goat boy...

That has less to do with desire, as much at it has to do with who I *care* about and who I want on the end of my bits.

I'm a 6'2", 265# XY who feels more at home in a skirt and cami than shorts and a T. I have pierced ears, I paint (all) my nails, I have long hair and a cropped beard. I wear mascara. I advise my wife on what presents well, she doesn't 'get' it.

What gender am I?

You tell me, sweetie,

<3

- MM

You kind of contradict yourself MM, you say it isn't about the clothes but then use clothes/cosmetics to distance yourself from being a CIS male. Just because a male doesn't fit societies ideal of what he should do or wear doesn't necessarily mean he has gender dysphoria.

[Bria]

Candice make the point that CDs should not fall under the TG umbrella. I agree, yet I disagree. In my earlier post (#27) I expressed my feeling upon joining this forum as a CD, that I wasn't comfortable being included under the TG umbrella as I felt that there was a big gap between myself and the TS folks, so from that point of view I agree with Candice.

The counterpoint is that there is a spectrum under the TG umbrella, some of us fall at one end, some at the other and some in between those extremes. Also, how many here can say that they have not moved along that spectrum? Are you still exactly where you were two years ago? (What is the difference between a CD and a TS? answer, two years. I'm not saying this is true for all, but we have seen that it is for some.) So if the TG umbrella doesn't include CDs then I think that the umbrella is a pretty small one, it doesn't represent a spectrum at all. So if only TSs are TG, then what are the rest of us?

Although I don't identify as TS or ever believe that I will, I have a great empathy for those that are traveling that road and if I can in any way lend my clout (if I have any) to the TS cause I am willing to be counted. There seem to be a lot more CDs that TSs, if we are all under one umbrella we make bigger numbers and we all know that politicians only pay attention to groups with numbers.

So on that count I disagree with Candice. So where do I go now? Maybe the dog house!

This thread has lead to a very interesting discussion that is important for this community.

Hugs, Bria

[AnnieMac]

Funny thing about all of this is, most people and the media can understand and wrap their heads around someone who is "transgendered" and wants to live as a woman, whether there is full transition down the road or not. "Oh OK, he is one of those women trapped inside a mans body!" What does not compute for them is a guy like me that likes the look and feel of females clothes, make-up hair, and how I look and feel in them from time to time. There are times I want to feel female and others not. I guess It's kind of like the Tom Boy thing. There are days when i guess you would say I am a "Nancy Boy", and want to feel pretty and female. That hadn't the slightest thing to do with really wanting to live as a women, and that flat out doesn't make sense to people. Why would a guy ever want to wear sissy clothes? That's why we are so far down on the acceptability chart in life.

[Candice Mae]

I'm amazed that my example of a CIS male CD not being TG was interpreted as all CDs are not TG... Just because a male likes to wear females clothes doesn't necessarily mean he has gender dysphoria, which if you look up the definition of TG is very important.

[flatlander_48]

B:

I understand what you mean. I would consider myself a semi-active crossdresser. I hang out with 2 groups in different cities and I am likely go out fully dressed 2-3 times per month. I dress at home, neck down, maybe 3-4 times per week. I am 66 and as far as I can recall, I don't ever remember thinking that I should be a female. I don't think that I have ever had that experience.

However, I have always enjoyed shopping and putting an outfit together is fun to me. Actually, that is true in guy mode and girl mode. The clothes then represent that part of me that comes from some degree of feminine identification.


I'm amazed that my example of a CIS male CD not being TG was interpreted as all CDs are not TG... Just because a male likes to wear females clothes doesn't necessarily mean he has gender dysphoria, which if you look up the definition of TG is very important.

CM:

I suspect that only a relatively small portion of crossdressers seek professional help. I doubt it is anywhere close to most. As I said earlier, I do believe that crossdressers do have a bit of gender dysphoria. But, they wouldn't probably know unless they had seen a professional. Further, the bit of crossdressing that they do is probably sufficient to keep the dysphoria from ever boiling over.

DeeAnn

[mechamoose]

You kind of contradict yourself MM, you say it isn't about the clothes but then use clothes/cosmetics to distance yourself from being a CIS male. Just because a male doesn't fit societies ideal of what he should do or wear doesn't necessarily mean he has gender dysphoria.

Ok, Candice, let's work that out for our mutual benefit.

I *do* have GD, but I'm in a special place where I don't have the slightest desire or need to 'correct' that. I have known for a long time that I am not either/or, I am both. I GET that people could do 'choice A' from column 1. I also understand that that is not the only available choice. Much less the best choice.

I am a big, stupid male with fashion sense. I can be a swishy girl all day long in boy-jean shorts and a T. I allow myself the room to wear girl clothes in order to validate myself. My wife is jealous of my 'girl mode' wardrobe. She gives me grief only because I can wear 'prettier' stuff than her, and that I get two wardrobes to her one.

I allow and enforce myself to be FEMALE while inhabiting an XY body regardless of what I would/should be doing as a 'stock jock'.

I FEEL female. I *interact* as a female. I am a girl in a stupidly male body. I'm girl inside an alien body, hon.

I'm all here for discussion, sweetie.

- MM

[Candice Mae]

Ok, Candice, let's work that out for our mutual benefit.

I *do* have GD, but I'm in a special place where I don't have the slightest desire or need to 'correct' that.

I GET that people could do 'choice A' from column 1, I also understand that that is not the only available choice. Much less the best choice.

I can be a swishy girl all day long in boy-jean shorts and a T. I allow myself the room to wear girl clothes in order to validate myself. My wife is jealous of my 'girl mode' wardrobe. She gives me grief only because I can wear 'prettier' stuff than her, and that I get two wardrobes to her one.

I allow and enforce myself to be FEMALE while inhabiting an XY body. I FEEL female. I *interact* as a female. I am a girl in a stupidly male body.

I'm all here for discussion, sweetie.

- MM

MM, none of my comments have been completely directed at you. I referenced a CIS male CD, you've asked questions and I've obliged and answered them. I'm just giving examples based on what you've asked to convey my opinion, I can not speak for you or label you.

Not all TG people have to transition or transition fully (SRS).

As for the acting "girly", I've met a few gay men that act more feminine then some women I know, does that mean that they have GD or are TG? Vise versa I have a friend that is always right in there with the guys hunting/fishing/rebuilding engines/ and carpentry and she is 100% female. Societies gender norms and constructs can not be used to define a persons gender identity.

[mechamoose]

Hi Candice,

None of our members should feel compelled to go 'all the way or go home', (which is not what I think you want)

I don't have the slightest desire to transition. However, I have faced issues relating to identity for many years in the LGBTQ space trying to identify *where* exactly I fit.

I just know that 'sports' bore me. I'm an IT techie, but I could care less about the difference between a swordsmith and a jeweler.. they both were doing precise work with elements. Both have specific things which require focus. It is more (to me) about 'roles'.

I don't care which place it was, bi, gay, bear, het, poly, furry, cosplay, RPG.... it was always the same question... 'where are you in OUR spectrum?'

They *all* viewed me as a 'deviant'.

Gays thought I was trolling 'easy meat'.

Straights thought I was 'undecided'.

Bis? Bis were already too busy stuck on trying to figure out how to fit in.

I'm a bull-male who feels most at home presenting as (traditionally) female. You want to criticize that?... Which traditions? Which cultures? GREAT questions!!

Some of our kind were apostates, some were holy people. It all depends on the cultural lens, yes? (Click my SIG links, please)

I did last Thanksgiving in a floor length skirt (as the cook/host) and nobody said a word. Wouldn't you like to have that kind of acceptance?

- MM

[Lorileah]

MM I am a hell of a poker player BTW..

DeeAnn, you hit all the bullet points.


Gender is defined in two parts physically and mentally, the physical part can be changed to co-inside with the mental part to make TS's who they are in mind and body. To me some one that is a CIS gendered male and wears a dress and acts in his mind "Feminine" is as much TG as a cat is a dog. If there is no gender dysphoria is the person really TG? Or just an actor/actress wearing a costume and playing a role? Some CD's may like to think that their need to dress runs deeper, but in the end it is usually just for sexually gratification.

Missing the point you are making I guess. You have to transition or at least consider yourself a TS to have any gender dysphoria? That really smacks of elitism making people different class levels. Tell me, specifically, what exactly do you have to mentally feel to be trans (either sexual or gender)? Because if there is a test, I need to know so I can stay where I am. Sorry but in my path, sexual gratification was a HUGE part early one, so did I grow into being a TS or was I lying to myself at the time? I really do want to know what mental thing you have to have that makes you dysphoric.

One issue I see with the TG spectrum is the feeling of "I am more>>>>>than you." The distancing ourselves because we don't think someone is at our level.

OK you don't want to have everyone under your umbrella because you think something makes you different or better? But why? Again, I have to direct your attention to history. How certain peoples always have considered themselves "more". I do understand that CDs don't believe that things that effect the Transsexuals are important to them. I can understand that they may see this as an "I can quit anytime, thus I don't need laws, or rights or protections that the TSs need." But they are wrong. It isn't a transsexual rights thing, it is a HUMAN rights thing.

For the 100th time here I have to cite Neimoller


First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

We are all in the same boat, it would make life easier if we all rowed together. Call yourself what you will, but don't marginalize any other part of our community. Like they say, "Don't muddy the water around you, you may have to drink it soon"

[Candice Mae]

Okay, its getting late... But I feel that I need to reply now or I'll have half the board accusing me of being the leader of the new third reich (been playing Wolfstein this weekend) when I wake up. First off, I want to say that there is nothing wrong with CDing, as long as you are not hurting anyone you are free to do as you please. Second please don't nit pick my posts, in my original post I said that I agree that CD's should have their place under the TS umbrella/Spectrum or whatever you want to call it. Go look its there in the second sentence, I'll wait while you do. Third my post seamed to be interpreted as that I think all CD's are not TG, but all I did was say that I believe that a CIS male CD is not TG. I was just trying to point out that even though I feel that CD's should have their place under the TG umbrella, not all CD's are TG.

Lets look at some definitions;

Transgender (TG);

Transgender is a term used to describe people whose gender identity differs from the sex the doctor marked on their birth certificate. Gender identity is a person's internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman (or someone outside of that gender binary). For transgender people, the sex they were assigned at birth and their own internal gender identity do not match.

Cisgender (CIS);

Cisgender is a word that applies to the vast majority of people, describing a person who is not transgender. If a doctor announces, “It's a girl!” in the delivery room based on the child's body and that baby grows up to identify as a woman, that person is cisgender.

The point I was trying to make is that not all CD's have gender dysphoia, some are CIS males that wear a dress on the weekend and identify as male and their desire to dress goes away after their sexually gratified. So therefore not all CD's are TG, because as stated above to be TG you have a gender identity that differs from your birth gender. Too me it seams that some CDs think their TG just to make themselves accept their CDing and there actions while dressed. Its similar to how members post here that they only think about being with a man when they are dressed, the clothes you wear has no effect on your gender or sexuallity. The clothes just allow you to let your guard down and explore more of your self that was bottled up due to you being confined by social construct.

[Zylia]

Interesting discussion! I get what Candice is saying: someone who's cisgender is not transgender, that's because these words are literally mutually exclusive. The question is if someone who crossdresses can be cisgender. If you 'dress on the weekend' for sexual gratification, doesn't that imply some amount of ambivalence between your identity and biological sex? Is something sexual not real?

What's the difference between 'thinking you're TG' and 'knowing you're TG'? How do you know you're TG unless you think it? Is there something to be measured to determine your 'TG-hood'? The amount of TG blood cells in your blood? The size of your brain hemispheres? The length of your index finger?

[Nigella]

Going back to the OP, with due deference to all responses so far, Plain and simple response,

Do you equate the word Transgender to mean either

a. Transexual

or

b. An umbrella term for the whole community

simply put, would you say a or b?

[Marcelle]

Arrg . . . soup anyone? :facepalm:

As I stated earlier, I'll go with option "b" . . . umbrella.


. . . Gender is defined in two parts physically and mentally, the physical part can be changed to co-inside with the mental part to make TS's who they are in mind and body. To me some one that is a CIS gendered male and wears a dress and acts in his mind "Feminine" is as much TG as a cat is a dog. If there is no gender dysphoria is the person really TG? Or just an actor/actress wearing a costume and playing a role? Some CD's may like to think that their need to dress runs deeper, but in the end it is usually just for sexually gratification.

Candice,

I am sorry, did I get left off the mailing list for my TG welcome package with the checklist of whether you are or are not Transgender . . . hmm if you do A and B but not C, D, E . . . you are not in the club? :confused:

Perhaps the number one rule of Transgender Club should be "Nobody talks about Transgender Club and what it means" :Punch: :)

Hugs

Isha

[ReluctantDebutant]

I believe by their very nature all those that are under the TG umbrella; CD, TS, genderqueer, ambigender, gendernoncomformist, etc, are very independent and individualistic. They aren't likely to be hemmed in by societal definitions so it is unlikely that all would settle under the new definitions. This is a group of people who want to define themselves. Debates on what transgenderism means will always have two sides the Dictionary definition or the more personal definition of the individual TG. The arguemnet boils down to which one means more to whom.


As to Candice's points I do believe if a born male cross-dresser identifies as male he is technically by definition cisgender. I mean if we are going by definitions. :eek: Perhaps cross-dressing is an overlap between the trans and cis realms?
Or maybe cross-dressing is like a tomato technically a fruit but often thought of as a vegetable. You don't put CD-tomato in a cis-fruit salad with all those cis melons, strawberries, banana, and grapes. No CD-tomatos go better with all those trans-vegetables like trans lettuce, onions, cucumbers, and cabbage, cover it all in dressing. And one thing we know about CDs is that they love dressing. :D

[Ellie52]

cover it all in dressing. And one thing we know about CDs is that they love dressing. :D
Totally true, and I love the satire. My kind of humor.......Ellie

[mechamoose]

MM, none of my comments have been completely directed at you.

I never thought they were, honey. I'm sorry if my replies made you feel like I thought that.


As for the acting "girly", I've met a few gay men that act more feminine then some women I know, does that mean that they have GD or are TG? Vise versa I have a friend that is always right in there with the guys hunting/fishing/rebuilding engines/ and carpentry and she is 100% female. Societies gender norms and constructs can not be used to define a persons gender identity.

I'm Bi. I'm not Straight, I'm not Gay, I like broccoli AND cauliflower. The only issue I *might* have is the either/or thinking. None of us are at the extreme ends of any scale we could use, we all lie somewhere in-between... not just in presentation, but in identity. This includes orientation as well as presentation. I challenge the idea that people need to 'choose' which end of that double-scale they inhabit. We all live somewhere in the middle.

- MM

[flatlander_48]

For the 100th time here I have to cite Neimoller

I think the strength of the Pastor's words is reflected in the fact that after all these years, the words are STILL true.


Like they say, "Don't muddy the water around you, you may have to drink it soon"

My corollary would be "Even birds know better than to shit in their own nests...".


The point I was trying to make is that not all CD's have gender dysphoia

This is a guess. My statement that I suspected that crossdressers probably do have a bit of dysphoria is also a guess. Sexual gratification may be a different subset, but I don't think so. For whatever reason, the person has decided to it is OK to cross that gender boundary. Clearly that is different from the population at large. Of the multitude of methods for sexual gratification, why choose this one? Most in the population at large would not consider this one. That's why I think a bit of gender dysphoria is involved. Unfortunately, analysis by a clinician is the usual way to determine dysphoria and it is a bit impractical for EVERYONE to do!


simply put, would you say a or b?

"b"


Perhaps the number one rule of Transgender Club should be "Nobody talks about Transgender Club and what it means" :Punch: :)

I:

I think that would be a real WTF moment for Chuck Palahniuk!?!?!?

DeeAnn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

So how are transsexuals part of an "umbrella" with guys that like to dress on occasional weekends for pleasure?(sexual or not)..
HOw are women under the umbrella with men? nobody can answer this apparently..
This is the majority of crossdressers....

They are no more part of a gender rainbow umbrella with people that live as women than any member of the human race ...i'm all for kumbaya and world peace too but it just makes no sense...
and those folks i'm referencing are the ones horrified that their wives would ever think they'd transition like many ts do...they don't want to be included with me..

and as a ts woman, i realize in some ways it doesn't matter, and i realize there is not much i can do about what the media does with labels, but i simply reject that label because its simply off base from reality, i reject the label as a matter of principle..

the terminology is very helpful for gender queer and bi gendered people, and in force you are all here and accepting of the term...it makes perfect sense for you...i like the term for you folks

but imposing the idea of tg umbrella on men and women that are happily in the gender binary is nothing but the opposite of what you decry when a gender queer person is labeled as "man"
your feelings about the term include inability to really understand what being a guy in a dress or being a transsexual is all about..

that's not to say we can't all be friends...and like i said, there isnt much i can or need to do about it...its not talked about very much in my life (altho my gay daughter joined an LGBT group that ended up being disbanded over militant discussion over this very subject!!!!)

but If i was walking down the street and being harassed for my height and appearance as a ts woman how many would step up and identify themselves as being under my "umbrella", am i to be lumped in with the group of guys that dress enjoy she male porn or that would want to date me because i'm trans?

[Tina_gm]

Just want to give an opinion that I do agree that we should be able to differentiate between someone who cd's for whatever reason and a person who identifies solely as opposite their birth gender. It is a disservice to all if there is not an accurate way to do so due to a current PC trend in terminology. What is used today will be deemed derogatory tomorrow. So whatever the PC group think trends, it's the ability to accurately identify oneself which is important. I personally feel that using TG as an umbrella term then using different terms identifying the variations works well. There are baptists, Methodists catholics. .. all are Christians. TG/CD/TS Is a good Way to identify the different aspects of gender variance

[emma5410]

Kaitlyn

I could not agree more.

[Pat]

So how are transsexuals part of an "umbrella" with guys that like to dress on occasional weekends for pleasure?(sexual or not)..
HOw are women under the umbrella with men? nobody can answer this apparently..

Was there a failure to answer? Try this: they end up under the same umbrella because they have characteristics in common. What characteristic? They failed to meet the expectations of a simple social ritual that works 97-ish percent of the time. That ritual is the cursory examination in the first moments after birth when the shaman incants, "Congratulations, it's a boy!" When that incantation is made a whole bunch of expectations are set. The important thing is that the person of whom it has been said has no input to the ritual. It will be years before he is able to learn the difference between the two things he could have been pronounced (boy or girl) and even longer before he can register an objection.

In the case of crossdressers the objection tends to be mild and the corrective action seems to be occasional instances of adopting the other gender's external markers and behavior. In the case of transsexuals the objection is much more strenuous and the corrective action is more extreme. But they have this failure to be classified correctly using traditional methods (which, again, are generally reliable) in common. So we group them into a collective noun, transgender, to keep pediatricians humble when they make the pronouncement.

Does that answer how crossdressers and transsexuals end up under the same umbrella? I think it does, but you might not. This thread has made it very clear that there are a lot of individual thinkers on this forum. ;) All I can say is we are enriched, not diminished, by diversity.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

There is a still a failure to answer. I was never a man. You are a man(assuming you are not ts)..or perhaps you are a transgendered man...

You were correctly gendered , i was not.
it is not just a ritual, its nature...

you choose to step out of societies "rules" for men... i am not a man
I accept your self identification as a cd male or a tg male or GQ or bi gendered male or whatever you choose...

You just can't seem to accept mine as a woman..how does this enrich me?
ending up in the same umbrella as its called is mostly out of my control..but its still not right.

[flatlander_48]

So how are transsexuals part of an "umbrella" with guys that like to dress on occasional weekends for pleasure?(sexual or not)..

Similar to:


We call SMARTcars and SUV's cars
We call one-person experimental aircraft and 787's airplanes
We call a $20 knit acrylic article of clothing and $400 cashmere knit articles sweaters


Specific to this discussion, we're speaking about crossing the gender boundary from your assigned at birth gender to the opposite one. I think the WHY is really irrelevant as what is discussed is a question of presentation and activity.


HOw are women under the umbrella with men? nobody can answer this apparently..
This is the majority of crossdressers....

As we are essentially talking about the Male to Female situation, I assume that you are genetically a male. For purposes of this discussion, to me all that is needed is crossing the boundary.

Further, continuing to split hairs does NOT serve anyone and only serves to make the population at large more confused and potentially more hostile. A message split into 37 gradients doesn't help anyone; with the possible exception of those who wish we didn't exist.

DeeAnn

[Pat]

There is a still a failure to answer. I was never a man.

But I'm assuming you were misidentified at birth because your minute-old body appeared male? Then everyone had to wait until you were old enough to enunciate the truth. So you fall into the category we call "transgender" -- what's the benefit to you about there being such a category? It gives us a way to tell society at large that this sort of thing can happen. I actually used a wrong number when I talked about the ritual of gender assignment -- it's actually correct 99.7% of the time according to the Williams Institute. That means we're trying to tell society they're wrong when statistics and experience tell them they're right and we're crazy. We are a vanishingly small segment of society -- 1 in 333 is the number for ALL transgender folks -- CDs, TS, Genderqueer, etc. It's like Horton Hears a Who all over again -- our tiny voices calling out to a giant society essentially unaware we exist. When I was a kid, transsexuals and transvestites were addressed under the heading "Abnormal Psycology." I.e. we were crazy. We could be institutionalized and medicated against our will. Now, decades later, we actually have Transgender Rights movements and Gender Identity protections (admittedly in the nascent phase.)


You just can't seem to accept mine as a woman...

Be careful about telling strangers what it is they believe.

[Candice Mae]

As I suspected I would wake up to members trying to blur the lines of black and white definitions, and thinking I mean them or all CD's when I've said time and time again that I was referring to CIS male genders CDs (NOT EVERY CD IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD). CDing is defined as the act of wearing clothes intended to be worn by the gender opposite of your own, I've already defined TG and CISgendered in a previous post. Those definitions are black and white your either one or the other, you identify 100% as your birth gender you are CISgendered, if you do not identify 100% with your birth gender you are TG. As I've said above I am not here to speak for you nor label you as either or, its just there's no way to deny the fact that there are CISgendered CD's so therefor there are not TG CD's. Clothing and cosmetics have no effect on your gender identity they can help express it, but you do not have to have gender dysphoria to wear/use them.

Definitions give us balance and order in the world, if we do not follow them we would be lost. If we want to continue down this path, I am now no longer a TS, I am now a GG we will just ignore the part of the definition that says GG's are born with vagina's not penis'. I am no longer going to argue this point as I got a busy few days ahead of me, I am going to go to the registries office and fix this M mistake on my drivers license, join the local woman's hockey team, and apply for access to the FAB forum....

Seams illogical doesn't it?

[emma5410]

As we are essentially talking about the Male to Female situation, I assume that you are genetically a male. For purposes of this discussion, to me all that is needed is crossing the boundary.


DeeAnn
You are missing the key point. TS may be genetically male but their gender identity is female. CDs are genetically male and most of them have a gender identity that is male. That makes us different. TS are not crossing the gender boundary. They are already on the other side.

[Rachel292]

The other thing is that we also use different terminology when talking amongst ourselves , and sometimes when 'muggles' use the same words phrases, we get offended. Additionally this is a worldwide forum and as language evolves. The meaning in one part of the world may be different to elsewhere.
Personally i'm still not sure how to describe myself (which pigeon hole to put myself in) . I am Transgender or Trans*. Crossdresser/transvestite ? TS?

[Nadine Spirit]

CDing is defined as the act of wearing clothes intended to be worn by the gender opposite of your own, I've already defined TG and CISgendered in a previous post. Those definitions are black and white your either one or the other, you identify 100% as your birth gender you are CISgendered, if you do not identify 100% with your birth gender you are TG.

Definitions give us balance and order in the world, if we do not follow them we would be lost.



I agree with your thoughts on definitions. I think that is what prompted me to write the OP initially. What I disagree about is which TG definition you used. What kind of confuses me is that some here pick which definitions should be followed. As a member here, foolish me, I looked at, read, and accepted the definitions provided by this site. Here is the working definition for TG as I see it.


Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.


This definition clearly differs from what the media uses TG as and what is problematic for our discussion in this thread, is that many of us also clearly disagree with that definition. Personally I don't think it is problematic for me to read the definition of terms provided in the introductions section, and then say, hey if I am going to participate on this forum, then I will adhere to those definitions. In reviewing them again, I was struck by Reine's comment about how providing those definitions would put to rest to the endless debates about their meanings. Well Reine, that would only be the case if we could all at least agree to use those definitions at least while we are at this forum.

Oh well!

I do like Nigella's point that so many of you seem to have ignored. Your response to this thread could be a simple A or B.

[Katey888]

Just A or B Nadine (and Nigella...) - but where would be the fun in that...??? And seems like I missed the overnight fun too...

I think this needs to be addressed:


To me some one that is a CIS gendered male and wears a dress and acts in his mind "Feminine" is as much TG as a cat is a dog. If there is no gender dysphoria is the person really TG? Or just an actor/actress wearing a costume and playing a role? Some CD's may like to think that their need to dress runs deeper, but in the end it is usually just for sexually gratification.

and


Those definitions are black and white your either one or the other, you identify 100% as your birth gender you are CISgendered, if you do not identify 100% with your birth gender you are TG.

I've felt before here that some of those who are TS see the world in a much more binary way than crossdressers do. I can imagine it must be hard to comprehend that an individual can have not just aspects of masculine and feminine, as we all have that to some degree, but that those aspects need to have distinctly separate expressions. We don't suffer GD - permanently... we have something similar but fleeting and partial that drives us to express this part of us and the most visible way of doing that is the same way that a TS also expresses their true identity: visually through clothing and appearance.

No - we're not the same. We have similarities, and while the underlying cause may be related, chances are it is probably quite different. Lori has it right with the Niemoller quote, but a pithier variant on a theme is available from one of your own countrymen:


We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. :)

The TG umbrella IS arbitrary and it does clump some disparate groupings together, and while I can understand conceptually what it means to be TS, but struggle to understand why I need to do what I'm driven to do, if I feel comfortable supporting this umbrella, why wouldn't you want me?

And a further misconception:


you choose to step out of societies "rules" for men...

After all that's written on here with so many of us that struggle with a 'middle path' of part-time presentation, why do you continue to believe that all of us 'choose' to do this? Seriously - I'd love just to be able to just dress up as a civil-war re-enactor at weekends if it was about being an actor, but it isn't - and it hasn't been for fifty, freakin' years... Please give a little credence to the possibility that we might actually have some sort of condition that drives us to do this - a lot of the time it isn't fun to experience the conflict we undergo and the confusion that either cis-gendered or transitioned mis-gendered folk don't have (anymore).

Katey x

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Wow, I went away for a weekennd vaycay thnking this thread had just about run its course only to come back with an explosion of posts. O.k. since this is all about definitions how about this one from Mark A. Yarhouse, a researcher on transgenderism and gender disphoria:

"Transgender: An umbrella term for the many ways in which people might experience and/or present, express (or live out) their gender identities differently from people whose sense of gender identity is congruent with their biological sex."

I know some folks here have issues with how things get defined, but I prefer a more inclucive definition that leaves room for sub-catagorization. Maybe we should approach this from a biological perspective where we (biologists) create taxonomic catagories that are organized on the basis of increasing levels of similarity and serve as a means of defining classes of organisms. We could set up "Transgender" as a Family (one that is slightly disfunctional at times) and then create Orders that reflect everyone's different modes of TG expression or experience. In particular I'd like to hear from our TS sisters on an alternate term for themselves rather than the umbrella term. That seems to be what caused all the hoopla in the first place.

Bridget

[mechamoose]

I am trans-gendered.

I don't care what 'bits' you show at birth, that tiny person doesn't have the experience or knowledge to have any idea of who THEY are. I feel it is too much to assume that *any* child has that knowledge.

I think the TG vs CD definition is too harsh. I feel that the standard definitions are far too limiting. I think that if you are a bull-male who wants to have his 'vulnerable' parts addressed in confidence, then you could qualify as 'TG'. You are seeking acknowledgement for an 'off gender' trait. There is too much black/white thinking going on here.

It is all about roles and responsibilities in a pair bonding, isn't it?

Without the relationship, the role doesn't matter. Within the relationship it is crucial. You both have to cover all the bases/responsibilities, regardless of genetics. Our whole community is focused on how we don't match our genetics. We don't need to match them in order to fulfill our family roles.

None of us exist in a vacuum, our 'acceptance' is entirely reliant on the other monkeys in our family/tribe. We *all* want to be IN, instead of OUT.

[Lorileah]

but If i was walking down the street and being harassed for my height and appearance as a ts woman how many would step up and identify themselves as being under my "umbrella", am i to be lumped in with the group of guys that dress enjoy she male porn or that would want to date me because i'm trans?

You need new friends


Or maybe because I do accept being a part of the whole big we are one umbrella, my CD and DQ friends WOULD stand up with (for) me and I would them. I have.

The porn thing? Ciswomen are in your boat, I don't see that women wouldn't back another woman if for some reason she was being harassed just because she was an exotic dancer or a mailroom clerk.

I get the part about tranny chasers, I do, I get the part where we are seen as objects by CERTAIN men, I do. I also get the part where other men do treat me with respect and they treat my CD friends the same way.

Right now I don't have a boyfriend (girlfriend) mostly because I demand respect, but to be really fair, I haven't looked at places like church or civic groups and such. My socialization is with my TG friends.

In a way I really do feel sorry for those who are willing to cut or not even make ties with the rest of the community. I have met wonderful people. I also have wonderful friends in other communities. I just attract nice people I guess.

In my fantasy world, the day after surgery, I will wake up and the world will be unicorns and rainbows and I will have a house in the suburbs with 2.3 children and attend PTA meetings and Tupperware parties. But I know better. You don't get to play the Cis-gender card, I wish it were true. So what do I have to do?

My choice is to make my world better. To make people see that TGs (yes all TGs) are very much like they are. I have spent an inordinate amount of time on these boards trying to get everyone to play together. I don't see me turning my back on anyone here after surgery because I have the parts then. It confuses the hell out of me why so many are so adamant that they don't want to associate with people who may have the same concerns and issues as you do.

Have fun Be isolated. Don't care what happens to those around you. You don't like being associated with porn stars? You don't like being laughed at? DO SOMETHING about it. Stand up Don't think for a moment when that anesthesia wears off that your world will be any different than it is now. You have to make it better yourself.

Nigella, it's A.

The rest of you, tear yourselves up, just stay in the rules so I don't have to fix things here.

[Badtranny]

No Lori, you jumped off Kait's quote to the wrong conclusion.

That particular point was about the vast majority of part-timers who literally lead two separate lives. Those dudes who are so fragile that they won't even verbally defend trans people for fear of being "outed". There are people on this board who have admitted to actually joining in with their buddies on the name calling. I am friends with some great people who I like an awful lot, but even they are crazy closeted in certain company or certain areas.

That is something that you have less and less tolerance for as the years go by. Kaitlyn is making a hard distinction between those that have secret lives, and those that have stopped living with secrets.

People can call themselves whatever they want as far as I'm concerned, but at the end of the day all you are is what you show the world. The rest is just pretending.

[Rogina B]

I think Isha's position is best. Let people who hear the word transgender ask if you are planning to transition then take the time to explain the broader meaning and how it applies to you. It can be exhausting and feel like you are having the same conversation over and over again, but it represents an opportunity to build a relatinship with a person that may lead to greater acceptance.
My feelings and actions every day! Show them with confidence that you are what you are,regardless of the "buzz word" as of late. We are all human beings that need to be accepted as such. No one really cares what is in your panties...


A lot of accepting people I know seem much more comfortable in thinking of me as transexual, although they say transgender.

Doesn't help that different people use different names: my parents, for example, used "queer." A much worse choice.....

I accept "queer"...No big deal..If that person doesn't get it..so be it.




I do understand that CDs don't believe that things that effect the Transsexuals are important to them. I can understand that they may see this as an "I can quit anytime, thus I don't need laws, or rights or protections that the TSs need." But they are wrong. It isn't a transsexual rights thing, it is a HUMAN rights thing.



We are all in the same boat, it would make life easier if we all rowed together. Call yourself what you will, but don't marginalize any other part of our community. Like they say, "Don't muddy the water around you, you may have to drink it soon"

This is why I lobby so hard for Human Rights Ordinances here in NE Florida.. Any form of "T" we are still the same and want the same.

[Bria]

Nigella, simply put, B

Lorileah, thank you, you make really good sense!

Hugs, Bria

[Pat]

Just A or B Nadine (and Nigella...) - but where would be the fun in that...???

It does leave one in the unfortunate position of having to argue that gender is NOT a binary, but transgender IS.

[Eryn]

The average person doesn't have much of a concept of what transgender people are. To them, Bruce Jenner, Christine Jorgenson, Laverne Cox and Kristen Beck define the word "transgender."

They don't know or care that most of us do not want to transition and are perfectly happy living in the middle of the spectrum. If we were to try to explain the nuances to them they would lose interest about two sentences in.

So, why bother? When I am out and about en femme I have no problem with being perceived as TS or, for that matter, gay. It's a waste of my time and effort to attempt to educate people for whom the difference ultimately means nothing.

[PaulaQ]

So, why bother? When I am out and about en femme I have no problem with being perceived as TS or, for that matter, gay. It's a waste of my time and effort to attempt to educate people for whom the difference ultimately means nothing.

I explain it to them. But then again, I'm a bitch.

[flatlander_48]

You are missing the key point. TS may be genetically male but their gender identity is female. CDs are genetically male and most of them have a gender identity that is male. That makes us different. TS are not crossing the gender boundary. They are already on the other side.

No, I think you missed the point. You're talking about ONLY the end game. I was speaking about the entire process. A person who becomes a M2F transsexual starts out as a male. Now, unless you are raised as a female from Day 1, you have spent some time as a male. However, at some point you come to the realization that there is a mismatch between your physical and psychological selves. Maybe you begin to crossdress, but eventually you realize that your situation needs more than occassional dressing and that there is a considerable mismatch between your physical and psychological selves. At a minimum, the desire is to live 24/7 as a female and taking steps to correct the incongruency is considered.

For most people, I would guess that self-awareness starts somewhere in adolescence. Until that time, chances are that you have lived as a male, even though that may have seemed difficult and frustrating. And yes, transsexuals do cross the gender boundary; it's just that their last trip is one-way.

Also, I find it hard to believe that crossdressers can really identify as 100% male. It doesn't seem right that such a person would be willing to present as the other gender. What would be the point? I think that there has to be a bit of dysphoria; not much, but some.

DeeAnn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

actually no you miss the point and you prove emma's point...
you have no idea what you are talking about.

the END game is totally and completely irrelevant to Emma's idea. your focus on the end game is the common mistake made my people that do not understand transsexuals..

You make a great argument for why transsexuals bristle at being included in a label filled with people that have no clue about what they are...

what you are talking about IS the problem i have with all of this...

i am a woman...i have moved mountains to get people to see me as one, to accept me as one and to thrive as one.... i don't need "other tg" people talking about how i'm just one of those tg people that decided to "go all the way"..


it continues to amaze me how little some folks know about actually being transsexual but talk about it like they do know..and treat me like a jerk for daring to talk about it.

[Badtranny]

Also, I find it hard to believe that crossdressers can really identify as 100% male.

Me too. I love it when we get the pronouncements; "I'm all man, 100% straight, and will kick anybody's ass who says otherwise"

um, ok ...Tiffany?

Look I was closeted for a long time and I was cruising other closet cases in freakin' parks. I know how hard it is to face the hard truth, but there is no way a regular straight dude is putting on panties and making his friends call him Chantrice. You are bent in some way, and if you don't like transgender, then you're stuck with the time worn queer.

[Eryn]

So, why bother? When I am out and about en femme I have no problem with being perceived as TS or, for that matter, gay. It's a waste of my time and effort to attempt to educate people for whom the difference ultimately means nothing.


I explain it to them. But then again, I'm a bitch.

I've tried that on occasion, but it seems the lesson that I actually impart is "TG people are self-obsessed and annoying." :)

[Jenniferathome]

Melissa, that was YOUR reality. I can promise you that it is not mine. I can certainly see how these two concepts are seemingly incongruous but straight (all the way straight) and cross dresser can go together. 'Bent' might be accurate. I prefer 'weird' because cross dressing is kind of weird. It makes no sense. But 'weird' leaves out all notion of gender or sex.

[Alex!]

DeeAnn, it may be hard to believe, but it is true that you can be a crossdresser and identify 100% as male. I am a case in point. Crossdressing is not just a behavior expressed by those with gender dysphoria. It is also a sexual behavior or a behavior that can trace its genesis to a sexual fetish that has since evolved into something more emotionally complex, but still not related to gender dysphoria.

Others here will no doubt conclude I am in denial, some with arrogant zeal. While this hardly matters to me personally, I think it is important to reiterate this point (made by a few others here as well) for those who visit this forum to seek understanding about what makes them tick.

[Nadine Spirit]

Okay, so..... what I can see throughout this thread is that we have a few groups:

- people who think that including everyone under the TG umbrella as pictured in the graphic would be preferred
- people who think that only TSs should be considered as TG and that CDs are in a totally separate category
- people who think that TS are not TG and are actually cisgender
- people who think that nobody should be labeled as anything
- and some people who think that some other people have staplers in their pockets

Have I missed some?

Just how many ways should we split ourselves into different groups? And for those who think that we should not be labeled, doesn't that just erase us as existing within any groups?

Seriously, I don't see how anyone would be harmed by any and all of us being included in one big (apparently unhappy) family. Then within that group we can have our own specialties. At least then maybe we could understand that we are at least all on the same team and could all stand up and support each other.

[flatlander_48]

it continues to amaze me how little some folks know about actually being transsexual but talk about it like they do know..and treat me like a jerk for daring to talk about it.

You make it sound like this all some great mystery when it is just the opposite.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

Further, what is there to be gained by splintering off subsets of us? It is a game of numbers; critical mass. That is also a simple concept, but exactly why does that have no appeal to you? When everyone stands apart, nobody wins.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Ignorance is bliss.
so let me get this straight..you make a false statement, i call you out, and i protest too much?? that's really your answer...

how exactly is it a game??

i speak at public forums quite often...i make it very clear what i am and what i think...i have talked to many many people over the years about what happened to me..
i make it very clear that i am a transsexual woman and i don't speak for anybody but me and at the same time i can support everyone's right to be who they are ...
over and over people respond positively...over and over i have to say no i am not a cross dresser..no i am not a man that turned into a woman..i talk in brutally frank detail about moments, thoughts, heartbreaks and operations..
and people respond one by one...thats how you do it, thats what matters.

please tell me what specific right would you like deeann (or anybody) that you think i would not support because i cannot call myself transgender? because i cannot call myself a man or a bi gendered person??

what makes anybody think that i would not accept you as you are? (btw apologies to katey for my poor word choice earlier...i used the word choose casually and didnt mean to imply that being a cd or tg or whatever is some kind of choice)


please be specific...please say exactly what it is that you lose out on when i assert my actual identity instead of some made up media driven oversimplification?

[PaulaQ]

TS are not crossing the gender boundary. They are already on the other side.

Uh no. We absolutely cross a gender boundary. Our biological sex (assuming we can agree on what that means - this is also not a trivial matter) does not match our internal gender identity. For cisgender people, the two line up. Indeed, straight, cisgender people can tell an immense amount about themselves just be looking between their legs. I think this is why they fixate on that stuff so much - because they can.

The default assumption in our world is sex = gender. We cross that boundary.



There is a still a failure to answer. I was never a man. You are a man(assuming you are not ts)..or perhaps you are a transgendered man...

Therein lies the rub - "assuming you are not ts". This is why we are all under one umbrella, and this is a spectrum. You and I both very strongly conform to cisnormative standards I suspect. That's fine. We're just women. We already know that. The trouble is, lots of us don't know, and are in denial about it, until suddenly we can no longer deny it. That reason alone is enough to lump us all together. I'm not saying that all CDs are TS - just that it's hard to tell who's who until after the fact.

Also the symptoms many CDs report seem very similar to mild versions of symptoms of full on GD that those of us who transition report:
- they can't give this up.
- they become uncomfortable when they don't present as female after a time
- their feelings vary in intensity
- their feelings tend to be episodic

There are many others.

But look - it's not just CDs. There are butch lesbians who identify as female. And then others who eventually realize "I'm really a man." From the point of view of the outsider, these two populations are very difficult to distinguish from one another - until after one starts transition.

I'm not sure what you'd consider a non-binary gender identity, if not trans. I'm not sure what you'd consider someone who may be assigned male at birth, but who identifies as a woman, but only weakly, if not trans.

The thing is - it's not just identity, it's also expression.

[Lorileah]

You make a great argument for why transsexuals bristle at being included in a label filled with people that have no clue about what they are... Oh and I thought the TSs just didn't want anyone to get the same treatment they were looking for. Why DO TSs not like CDs and vice versa? I don't get it Guess it's the left over hippie in me.


what you are talking about IS the problem i have with all of this...

i am a woman...i have moved mountains to get people to see me as one, to accept me as one and to thrive as one.... i don't need "other tg" people talking about how i'm just one of those tg people that decided to "go all the way"..

And yet...you are reading the MtF part of this forum and commenting in it. If you believe all that, why use a forum where people talk about transitioning from male to female or female to male if you are (were) always a woman? Seems that the forum is to help people get to the point of where they are going. :idontknow:

I am constantly amazed by the infighting as I said. NO ONE IS MORE T than anyone else. ":facepalm:

It was a progression for me. Yes I always considered myself female BUT I needed and received help and guidance from people, CDs and TSs on these boards. Maybe the answer is if you don't like how some people don't have your perspective you should stay in other sections? I am here, as a TS, with the hope and desire to help, inform, support ANY person who is TG. Consider the two letters to mean what you will. You don't don't like what people say, don't read it.

Nothing is life is 100% but I am sure there are men here who are all man, in silk.

[emma5410]

You make it sound like this all some great mystery when it is just the opposite.
It it obviously a mystery to you because you clearly do not understand it DeeAnn. By the way most TS, but not all, become aware of their gender issues as small children not adolescents.


Quote
Originally Posted by Paula Q
Uh no. We absolutely cross a gender boundary. Our biological sex (assuming we can agree on what that means - this is also not a trivial matter) does not match our internal gender identity. For cisgender people, the two line up. Indeed, straight, cisgender people can tell an immense amount about themselves just be looking between their legs. I think this is why they fixate on that stuff so much - because they can.

The default assumption in our world is sex = gender. We cross that boundary.


Many in our world would still define you as a male irrespective of anything you said or did. I do not care what the default assumption of the world is. I will not be defined by ignorance even you are happy to be. I was born physically male but with a female gender. That means that I have not crossed a gender boundary. Physically I was born male and have made my body more female but that is fixing a physical defect. It did not change my gender.

[PaulaQ]

I was born physically male but with a female gender. That means that I have not crossed a gender boundary. Physically I was born male and have made my body more female but that is fixing a physical defect. It did not change my gender.

Unfortunately, they get to define this - not us. They have police and guns and stuff. We don't. There's lots more of them.

No, your gender did not change. But your gender and physical sex are opposite - that is why you are transgender. So yes your gender is on the opposite side of your physical sex with respect to a cisgender person.

Trans - a prefix meaning “on the other side of,” referring to the misalignment of one’s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth:
transgender; transsexual. This comes from a chemistry term - a prefix denoting a geometric isomer having a pair of identical atoms or groups on the opposite sides of two atoms linked by a double bond.


By the way most TS, but not all, become aware of their gender issues as small children not adolescents.

I don't buy this. Citation please. By the way, being aware of a gender issue, and being able to come out to yourself, are totally different things.

[ReineD]

I started noticing it about 5 years ago. My first impression was that people wanted to distance themselves from the "sexual" part of "transsexual", in particular kids who are transitioning? The media certainly prefers the term "transgender", maybe because we live in a puritanical society and no one likes to have the word "sex" associated with their name? And then some CDers jump in on the bandwagon and want to be called "transgender" because it doesn't seem to have the same fetish taboo associated with it as the word "crossdresser"? I know, I'm picking at straws here. lol

But it does make it difficult to explain to people who we are. I'm sure that everyone my SO and I meet simply assumes that my SO is like Caitlyn (Bruce) Jenner.

And it makes it impossible for people in this forum to identify themselves to others here in any meaningful way. There are so many definitions floating around now for "transsexual", "crossdresser", and "transgender" that it is utterly useless for people to say who they are any more. For example two similar people might have the same urges and dress for the same reasons and to similar levels of frequency, but one person will identify himself as a male CDer while the other will say he is transgender, while another will say she is female but only while dressed, while another will say he is TS but will never transition. :strugglin

It reminds me of playing, as a child. We would get into these incredibly complex games where we just made up the rules and changed them as we went along, to suit our own unique moods and preferences.


I can imagine that many SO's are very concerned about this ... the more its an umbrella the more the cd must face the question..


You'd be surprised at how many CDers there are in this forum who know in their hearts they are not women. I'd say the vast majority, although it is fun to play at being a woman in an anonymous forum. I don't think that any name or word we read in the media and in discussion forums will change how they feel. Don't forget, they do log off their electronic devices and return to their regular lives with their wives, families, kids, jobs, friends, etc. And most of their wives don't even read this stuff. There is only a tiny fraction of wives who join here (I'd say less than one percent), and the rest of the wives simply are not interested, so reading the term "transgender" in the media does not cause them concern.



People can call themselves whatever they want as far as I'm concerned, but at the end of the day all you are is what you show the world. The rest is just pretending.

Totally agree.

[PaulaQ]

My first impression was that people wanted to distance themselves from the "sexual" part of "transsexual", in particular kids who are transitioning? The media certainly prefers the term "transgender", maybe because we live in a puritanical society and no one likes to have the word "sex" associated with their name?

I'm not a puritan. I have no problem with sex - talking about it, or having it.

But I'm one of the people who don't like the term "transsexual" - because:
- it focuses on surgical changes to our bodies that are NO ONE ELSE'S BUSINESS!
- it focuses on a very medical and pathologized version of transition
- it was cooked up by cisgender folks who really don't get this
- It promulgates the notion that we change sexes. Unfortunately, that is not the case at all. Oh I wish it were.
- It confuses straight, cis people who already conflate sexual orientation with gender identity

I don't see how CDs can reject the term "transgender." One of your own helped popularize the term - Virginia Prince - the founder of Tri-Ess. She used it to describe people who would never transition medically.

I'm really sorry the lack of terminology and an infallible way of predicting the future makes many spouses of CDs super nervous. But making very fine-grained distinctions between us doesn't serve any of us well, because it makes it easy for lawmakers to drive wedges between us legally, and that serves none of us well. For example, suppose law makers decided that someone who'd transitioned far enough medically to have their gender marker changed could legally use the women's restroom, but that someone who was "just a CD" could face two years in jail for using the women's room, or other gender segregated space? I mean, they have all these neat terms and definitions - why not use them to divide the community. Because who'd want men in the women's restroom? And since CDs identify as men, that must mean they don't get to use the women's restroom, or store changing rooms, etc. when they are en femme.

Does that sound like an outcome you want? Because me and a whole bunch of other activists spent time in Austin fighting a whole bunch of legislation that was aimed at curtailing *all* of us from using public spaces. They could very easily, had we not stopped all of this crap, have made it so that "true transsexuals" with the right ID got to use public spaces, but the rest of the trans spectrum didn't. We don't want them to understand this all well enough to divide us up legally - because they will not do it for our benefit.


Why DO TSs not like CDs and vice versa? I don't get it Guess it's the left over hippie in me.

We have different goals and different situations. Many CDs are scared as hell that their wives will decide "yep, they'll transition - goodbye!" They want no association with people who transition. On the other side - those of us in transition go through what is often an excruciating process, and many CDs seem just a whole lot more frivolous than do those of us in transition. (OMG Panties!!!!) I know a number of folks in transition who find CDs to be an embarrassment. (Why in the world would a man do that to his wife, dressing up and embarrassing her like that?!?)

These differences lead us to try to erase one another.

I don't allow stuff like this to go on in our local group - at least not if I get wind of it. I reach out to local CD groups, because I don't see their experiences as any less valid than mine, and some of them will transition.

[emma5410]

Many here talk about Transgender and how we should all belong as if it was some kind of movement. But if it is what has it achieved?

If someone was to organise a march how many CDs would join it? How many would march dressed as women? Where is this Transgender group we all belong to?

In actual fact there is no grand alliance of TS and CD. It is the TS who have transitioned that have to face the world every day. I know there are exceptions but the majority of CDs live a dual life. They spend most of their public time as men and dress in secret as women. Most of those who do venture out do their best to pass as women. Is it any wonder that people think transgender and transsexual are the same thing. I sympathise with how difficult it is and that society is prejudiced but unless you step out of the shadows nothing will change.

I do not regard myself as transgender. I am not betraying some larger group or being elitist by saying that. I do not see the point of joining with a group of people who identify as male just because we both wear women clothes. What is the point of allying with a group of people who are largely invisible and unwilling to show public support because they are afraid of people finding out who they are.

[Katey888]

On the whole, well said Emma... :)

I'd agree with your first points unreservedly - perhaps adding just a little to recognise that some would march with you, and some may be dressed as women. I used to think that there was little that most of us required by way of legislation to protect or substantiate any rights but then I see what Isha has undertaken with the Canadian military and I think that throws a whole new light on TG folk that really need to express their duality of gender and how much harder that is for normal society to accept than a TS who does fit into the binary model that is so much more acceptable and understandable. It is a difference, although I admit it does not seem to apply to many of us. So to your final point...


I do not see the point of joining with a group of people who identify as male just because we both wear women clothes. What is the point of allying with a group of people who are largely invisible and unwilling to show public support because they are afraid of people finding out who they are.

Probably only votes, dear... :D it doesn't hurt to have the support of an invisible minority who you can expect to support you because they do feel some empathy with what you have to live. And some of us might eventually be prepared to de-closet if we see society shifting towards acceptance.

Katey x

[NicoleScott]

Nigella, B, the way you asked the question. But that's not how I understood the OP question. I thought the OP was asking if transgender was replacing transsexual as used in mainstream usage. I don't think it should, but I think it is.
When completing forms, surveys, etc., for school, medical, etc., I noticed about half of them ask for a person's sex, and the other half ask for gender. Also when people speak they often use one for the other. It happens here as well, but not as much. In particular, I scratch my head when I hear/read "birth gender".
It seems that to many people gender is a nicer way to say sex, so it isn't surprising that transgender is often substituted for transsexual in mainstream usage.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Oh and I thought the TSs just didn't want anyone to get the same treatment they were looking for. Why DO TSs not like CDs and vice versa? I don't get it Guess it's the left over hippie in me.



And yet...you are reading the MtF part of this forum and commenting in it. If you believe all that, why use a forum where people talk about transitioning from male to female or female to male if you are (were) always a woman? Seems that the forum is to help people get to the point of where they are going. :idontknow:

I am constantly amazed by the infighting as I said. NO ONE IS MORE T than anyone else. ":facepalm:

It was a progression for me. Yes I always considered myself female BUT I needed and received help and guidance from people, CDs and TSs on these boards. Maybe the answer is if you don't like how some people don't have your perspective you should stay in other sections? I am here, as a TS, with the hope and desire to help, inform, support ANY person who is TG. Consider the two letters to mean what you will. You don't don't like what people say, don't read it.

Nothing is life is 100% but I am sure there are men here who are all man, in silk.

over and over you choose to misunderstand my words..over and over you pick and choose parts of my words to put them out of context
there's really nothing i can possibly do about that except to repeat them and hope others at least don't fall for it..

you bring up the sad "more T than you" trope... .that is the last thing i am about... you pick things i say and take them out of context to make it look different...if you can't quote my whole post and speak to it..please just leave it alone....you do this all the time.

there is no More trans than you, but apparently there is a holier/nicer/better than you...

in fact that is my problem with TG=TS... its sets us all up for failure and bad feelings that you exploit to show how wonderful you are
TS is not more T than anything... it is its own thing...it is a different thing... the idea that transsexuals often learn about themselves in a terribly sad and non constructive way is partially because of this so called umbrella...

i never said i don't like anybody...it is just the opposite and i'm sick of you telling me otherwise...apparently you don't like me..whatever...
...what you should really do Lorileah is apologize to me.

If you don't you don't deserve to respond to my posts




i'm here because i spent 1000's of posts here identifying as a crossdresser...identifying as TG.... i know there are many others like me, some of them posting here..
identifying as TG did nothing to cure or mitigate my gender dysphoria...i was surrounded by tg people telling me i was just ashamed of dressing and to relax and enjoy life...

I like everybody
all i care about is curing gender dysphoria...and i have helped many many people
I know cd's suffer it too and frankly the last thing they need to worry about is being told that they might really be ts...

and to Reine's point, once again...the men here that know they are men...that love wearing dresses and hose...they have every right to self identify as men...i never said differently...i don't think they are transgendered either but how does that mean i dislike or don't support them??

[stefan37]

I am ambivalent about terms. I use them interchangeably depending on the audience. I care less how people how people internally identify. We have members that declare they are Ts yet are not interested in transitioning. I don't understand that logic but hey whatever. Despite their declaration they are unable if unwilling to give up male privilege and it shows in their posting.

There is a difference that evident from transitioning individuals and those that present part time. I stopped going to events that have large numbers of cross dresser a. Not because I don't like them. But from my experience they are men in dresses from their actions and how they tend to leave the woman's room a mess. I'm embarrassed to be in their company when a cisgender female walks in

This observation is not a reflection on cross dressers in small groups or as individuals. I will be more than happy to defend anyone that wishes to show an alternate identity presentation.

Unfortunately we live in a binary society. Society is slowly starting to be exposed to trans identities. Acceptance will be slow. But in the meantime for those of us with female identities that means integrating to as close as possible to cisgenders.

I will use a term my friend Misty coined a while ago. I am a transitioner. When I complete transition and the world accepts me as female, then I'm female and will continue to live my life as such. Transitioning at a late age. Stealth is not an option. I don't volunteer, but I won't deny either and if questions are asked. I will answer them honestly.

It's s complicated subject and we have many members that live in various gender identities. In many ways I think it is more difficult to live in the middle and confusing for those they interact with. I'm not speaking of those that live in separate worlds ( that has its own issues), but those that present as different genders to this they interact with on a daily basis. That has to be very confusing.

I can only speak for myself and how I am living my life. I can only relate to those that have or are experiencing issues I have, presently or will in the future.

[Pat]

Many here talk about Transgender and how we should all belong as if it was some kind of movement. But if it is what has it achieved?

You're right -- transgender is not a movement. You don't get to opt in. And you don't get to opt out. It's a label and others, who need such a label, define it and apply it to you. You can argue the definition (clearly.) But we both come from the "born into a male body / don't accept the male gender" group which is "transgender." And if you're uncomfortable mingling with the crossdressers, gender-fluid, genderqueer, gender-non-conforming folks you share an umbrella with, take heart that you have "transsexual" which has it's own distinctive characteristics which are much better understood than the rest of us.


What has it achieved? In other words, "what's in it for me?" Perhaps you didn't live through the latter half of the 20th century. If you had, you'd note that many things have changed. In general being transgender has become less dangerous than it used to be. (In some countries.) The police no longer beat transgender people for coming to them to report having been assaulted. People who assault transgender folks are now treated as criminals, not as heroes. You can go to a doctor, announce "I'm a transgender" and he'll have a slight-to-reasonable chance of knowing what it is you're talking about. More than that, he won't immediately have you put in an asylum and treated with electroshock therapy. You can, in certain circumstances, go to your employer -- even if your employer is a government agency -- and announce your gender identity and instead of being fired on the spot, get assistance in establishing yourself in a new role. Those achievements have been gained by all transgender folks, including transsexuals. They didn't come easy. And they wouldn't have come at all if we had to get them for six or seven subgroups separately. And, frankly, there are still places in the world where you can be killed for being "a man in a dress" and nobody cares if you were transsexual or a crossdresser. It's to change those places we need a larger presence than any one of us would have alone.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn, it may be hard to believe, but it is true that you can be a crossdresser and identify 100% as male. I am a case in point. Crossdressing is not just a behavior expressed by those with gender dysphoria. It is also a sexual behavior or a behavior that can trace its genesis to a sexual fetish that has since evolved into something more emotionally complex, but still not related to gender dysphoria.

The question is simply this:

Of all of the ways in which one might express a sexual fetish, why does it involve crossing a gender boundary? Now, I'm not expecting you to answer as it is a very complex question; not unlike the "Why do you crossdress?" question. But, it is certainly true that there are many ways of expressing and deriving pleasure from a fetishistic point of view. Yet, there remains something fascinating about that one in particular.


please be specific...please say exactly what it is that you lose out on when i assert my actual identity instead of some made up media driven oversimplification?

Personally, how you think of yourself is your business. But, the process of consciously separating yourself from the rest of the community is not useful. It doesn't help you or us. It almost feels like what you would get if lesbians separated themselves from gays.

I've been a member of our LGBT employee affinity group for almost 12 years. Among other things, I have supported and worked towards getting our company to include transgender benefits in our health coverage. They did a few years ago and this year they raised the dollar limit. Never say never, but I have no plans to transition. This coverage does not benefit me in any way, yet I felt it was significant enough to put effort into it. It was sufficient enough to understand that, for some people, their very lives are at stake. What else does one need to know?

But, what I do know is this. I know about 10 people who are somewhere along the path of transitioning; from just starting hormone replacement therapy to being post-op for years. Until they finally got a grip on the situation, it opened the door for all kinds of abhorrent behavior: sunstance abuse, sexual compulsions, depression, etc. Basically anything that would allow them to numb out or divert their attention elsewhere. In some respects, it is not unlike what happens for lesbians, gays and bisexuals. Eventually you reach a point where you can no longer run from or deny the reality.

Society at large exerts A LOT of pressure on us to conform; to fit in. However, the problem for those 'way at the end of the transgender scale is that there are not that many things you can do to deal with the issues; let alone fix them. I don't think you can really counsel around the issues. It would seem that significant action, of some sort, is required.

Oversimplification is not what's happening here. Simplification is; to a degree. For example, I could give people the following answer, in response to the question "What do you do?":

I am an automation generalist. I apply both flexible and fixed automation to production processes in order to improve production effiencies and product quality.

Or, I could just say: mechanical engineer

24 words versus 2

The former is more information than most need to know or understand. The latter is succinct and defines a set of behaviors and activities that most people can relate to.

Similarly, I would say that we all occupy the Tent of Transgender with crossdresssers at one end, transsexuals at the other and a multitude of gradients in between. This is really all the general public needs to know unless they are predisposed to ask for more detail. Extended definitions don't work when people don't really want to listen.

Endgame: the final stage of some action or process


It it obviously a mystery to you because you clearly do not understand it DeeAnn. By the way most TS, but not all, become aware of their gender issues as small children not adolescents.

Children have neither vocabulary nor context to understand what a transsexual is. About all they know is that their likes/dislikes and behaviors are different from the majority of their peers, but they don't know why. Boys can say they want to be a girl, but they have no idea what that statement really means and what it entails. This closely mimics the experience of those who eventually realize that they lesbian and gay. It's like the difference between recognizing symptoms and diagnosing an actual disease. The former is just based on observation, while the latter requires a degree of knowledge.

DeeAnn

[Alex!]

DeeAnn,

Fair enough. The best I can come up with is this: A heterosexual boy going through puberty is not able to readily explore sex with a girl, and access to outlets like pornography is not always possible (especially true before the Internet). Some boys (like me) will stumble upon or explore wardrobes of moms, sisters, cousins, and the like, and curiosity may lead to trying things on, which then leads to unexpected sexual satisfaction. This is a common theme for a lot of my CD friends who do not believe they have gender dysphoria. Anyway, the habit evolves, no doubt enhanced by the thrill of doing something forbidden or "dangerous", and there is a tendency to step up the game, to push boundaries. Put another way, trying on a pair of panties a few times will be fun, but then it gets boring so you look for something more. Eventually, you go all out. But this is very hard to do growing up in a family, so "all up" probably doesn't happen until adulthood. By this point, dressing in feminine attire to get a charge has effectively been imprinted. It becomes a refuge of satisfaction, even if in a relationship with a woman. In a sense, the boy/man becomes the ultimate on-call "girlfriend", strictly compartmentalized. The alter ego is a superficial representation of a woman, not a reflection of a woman that is inside a man's body. Now, many societies, as we all well know, frown on this kind of thing, even if a lot of boys and men might secretly share in crossdressing behavior. The shame comes in part because of the concern in being perceived as a sissy or otherwise not virile. This is an important aspect, because as far as I'm concerned being a virile man is my comfort zone. Even though I enjoy crossdressing now and then, I would prefer it go away with a pill or something! Anyway, as for the shame, the Internet has helped because I realize now that many men share a similar history and interest, and I am not some sort of pervert or weirdo.

Another clue, at least in my case, is that when I'm fully dressed and out and about in public, I feel very uncomfortable and in a heightened state of awareness (but still fun, believe it or not). It's an odd mix of sexual arousal, feeling like a fraud, and being worried about how I am perceived by others. I am much more comfortable being myself, which is in guy mode seeking to attract women. I bring this up because I've heard that for many crossdressers, being dressed up makes them feel serene, at peace. Not me so much.

I realize that may not make sense to a lot of people. But this is essentially how this habit evolved for me. As a 47-year-old adult, crossdressing still provides a healthy charge. I still seek to "step it up" by going out and doing various new things alone or with friends (like restaurants, shopping and so forth), but I do see myself losing interest faster, taking breaks for many months at a time. I wish the urge would go away, but it is a part of me. I'm stuck with Alex. And she's expensive :D

[flatlander_48]

Speaking purely from my own experience, as a kid, there was sexual aspect involved messing about with women's clothes and shoes. However, when all this was rekindled some years ago, I find that the more frequently I dress, the sexual aspect diminishes. It is an inverse relationship.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Just how many ways should we split ourselves into different groups? And for those who think that we should not be labeled, doesn't that just erase us as existing within any groups?

Seriously, I don't see how anyone would be harmed by any and all of us being included in one big (apparently unhappy) family. Then within that group we can have our own specialties. At least then maybe we could understand that we are at least all on the same team and could all stand up and support each other.

Well, everyone IS included in one big family. It is called the Transgender umbrella. And for the purpose of explaining it to people not in this community, say a nosy waitress who asks, using "Transgender" is fine. She will think what she will think anyway, unless you are prepared to have a mega informative session with her while explaining your life in great detail.

But for the purpose of letting co-community members know who you are, I suggest dispensing with the labels (since everyone has a different definition) and instead say what you actually DO.

For example:


I know that I look like a male and I am not interested in changing this with makeup, wig, etc when I go out. I'm comfortable being me and just wearing women's clothing.
I identify as male, and present as a woman on occasion.
I identify as a female, but choose to live as a male who presents as a woman on occasion.
I consider myself gender fluid and I present in the gender that suits my given moods.
I identify as a female and live full time as a woman except work. I do not plan on changing my male sexual functioning.
I identify as a female and live full time as a woman. I am not interested in male sexual functioning.
I identify as a female, live full time as a woman, have changed all my legal markers, and want to function sexually as a woman.
I have no clue who I am. I'm working on it.



... or any variation of the above.

[PaulaQ]

I identify as a female, live full time as a woman, have changed all my legal markers, and want to function sexually as a woman.

This is so offensive. A lot of this stuff is no one's business. I don't ask people in the community their surgical status. It is no one's business who isn't planning on having sex with me.

Tell you what, I'll do this when you start telling people:

I identify as a woman. I was assigned female at birth. I have a vagina, and I still wish to function sexually as a woman. My legal documents indicate that I'm female. Which is neat, because from a young age, I always knew I was a woman. And all of that is great, because I'm a woman.

I think it is so wrong to expect people to talk about their surgical status.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

its interesting paula
i think you fall into the we are all transgender/continuum trap..i know you earlier talked about it.
people talk about surgical status because they assume there is some kind hierarchy and continuum...that we are just guys that wanted to girls...and that we went all the way.....i know and you know this ain't right...

people say it like its GOOD to be simplistic to lump everybody together..they like self identification as a unalienable right but not neccessarily for others.
.Deann thinks its not worth the bother lorileah thinks i dont like transgendered people..others conflate supporting each other with a label (here's a label..people...we should support each other)
others somehow argue that labeling a diverse group of people as one thing expresses diversity..

if you'd just say "im transsexual" that should be it... A transsexual is a woman regardless of social or economic status...regardless of out or stealth..passing or not...and especially surgery hrt or not... some of us can't do HRT or surgery for health reasons for example...or perhaps just being frozen and terrified...some of us have not reached the stage where their life falls apart in devastating gender dysphoria (yet)... those people are all forced to accept this term that misidentifies and disbeleives them
its unneccesary

because people lump us all together things like surgical status and appearance end up being thrown into the idea of a continuum and the intellectual laziness of using the word transgender to label a very diverse group of people becomes apparent and problematic...because people look at the gender umbrella to be about flowing between or levels of gender you are faced with the assumption that how much you do to "be" female puts you on the continuum..you didn't go all the way?? why not?? so are you less female?? it stinks..its ridiculous...

that's why i reject it... (again i realize i'm kind of stuck with it for various reasons)


I actually think Reine has a good point up to the point of private things like surgery..
it really is what you do that matters... but what you do is really HOW YOU LIVE not what medical procedures you did..

even though i am hopped up on this point it only impacts me intellectualy...if people like the term i have to live with it...however i think it brings these moments into your life more than helps you..

i "went all the way".....and in the community of people here i get told i'm in some kind of hierarchy where i'm trannier than thou for talking about it...and my response is no i'm not in your peer group.
I'm TS...don't worry about it..i'm a woman..we both wear panties and that's cool..nothing to see here...
...and i get back ..no you have to accept that you are transgendered and then they call me trannier than thou for asserting my identity!!!!
well i am certainly more transsexual than them LOL...but nobody can be more transgendered, especially when they are not at all

anyway...apparently i'm stuck with the term transgendered and the idea that i am a man that decided to change into a woman...luckily that doesnt really enter my life except here and when i talk publicly...
i have got the questions and i calmly explain...i get more flak for it here than i get in the real world where it actually matters.

[Nadine Spirit]

Well, everyone IS included in one big family. It is called the Transgender umbrella.
]

Hmm.... Yeah that is my position on this issue as well. Have you even read through this post? There are a large number here that think that we should not include everyone under the transgender umbrella. I in fact quoted your supplied definition of TG in one of my replies. The problem is that not everyone here agrees with your supplied definition of TG.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the label/term causes confusion and creates the false impression that people evolve into transsexuals

the term is helpful IMO to describe people that id their gender identity as fluid or mixed..or perhaps unsure
CD Men have no feeling they are women...ts women have no feeling they are men..
yes its true that self knowledge is hard won sometimes and it causes anxiety and confusion..having a catch all label doesn't help with this..in fact it creates fear and uncertainty again only IMO

definitions change..medical terms evolve...the media is lazy and prurient ...

i am happy to be included in a large group of forward thinking people that support the rights of each person to safely express their gender identity...male, female or otherwise... apparently tho i must enjoy pushing water up a hill or i would just shut up about it!!! LOL

[melanie206]

We can debate, discuss and argue about what we are and how we are understood by others till the cows come home. I think the value of the transgender "umbrella" grouping has at least of practical value to anyone who ventures out in the world in any gender-variant way - strength in numbers. It's about being able live and do as you want without being discriminated-against, bullied or murdered. It doesn't matter if you "feel like a man", some people are still going to treat you unfairly.

[ReineD]

I actually think Reine has a good point up to the point of private things like surgery..
it really is what you do that matters... but what you do is really HOW YOU LIVE not what medical procedures you did..

Thanks, Kaitlyn. But in my post, I specified that the more detailed explanations (all the bulleted examples) would be reserved for co-community members, namely co-community members here and in support groups where the discussions about medical procedures are indeed at the forefront of conversations!

In no way did I suggest telling the world at large whether someone has a penis or not. As I said in my first paragraph, I think simply saying "Transgender" is fine ... except of course with a prospective sexual partner, who would want to know all the details.


Have you even read through this post? There are a large number here that think that we should not include everyone under the transgender umbrella. I in fact quoted your supplied definition of TG in one of my replies. The problem is that not everyone here agrees with your supplied definition of TG.

Actually, this is not my definition. I never would presume to tout my own definitions as "definitive" anything.

This definition is in the Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender-Nonconforming People, Version 7, published in the International Journal of Transgenderism (2011), Appendix A: Glossary, page 221. Medical people throughout the world are supposed to follow the guidelines in this document for the care of members of the Transgender community. I had created a post of all the definitions from Appendix A on October 26, 2011, in an attempt to stop the in-fighting here among members about term definitions.

But, now I think like everyone else, there is no way to get people in this forum to agree, despite what the professionals say. So I think it best (for the purpose of identifying oneself to other members of the community in discussions about this very topic) to define what you do and not try to attach just a single word to it, since doing so will bring to mind a banana in one person's mind, and a stapler in another's. lol

Here's the original WPATH document:

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/IJT%20SOC,%20V7.pdf


<edit>
Here's my original post with a summary of the WPATH definitions. I thought I'd post it here in case people don't feel like sifting through the rather large PDF document above:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?162497-Some-Common-Trans-Related-Definitions

[PaulaQ]

its interesting paula
i think you fall into the we are all transgender/continuum trap..i know you earlier talked about it.

I don't think it's a "trap" at all. I take a deliberate philosophical stance on this matter, after a great deal of thought on the matter. I understand your point on this:


people say it like its GOOD to be simplistic to lump everybody together..they like self identification as a unalienable right but not neccessarily for others.

I simply disagree with it.

I have no problem with how people self-identify. In fact, I think some of the labels under "the transgender umbrella" are all very useful:
- drag queen
- drag king
- feminine man
- stone butch
- crossdresser
- gender queer

And I'll grant you that I felt somewhat erased that there wasn't a nicer word than "transsexual," with all it's inherent historical problems to describe those of us who do a whole bunch of stuff to transition.

The problem is - us "transsexuals" are all anyone really knows anything about, and because of the history of tying legal rights for transgender people to medical and surgical status, there does not need to be a word to describe us. There just doesn't - because as soon as there is, some dirt-bag legislator will try to pass laws based on this definition that ultimately hurt all of us. I spent some amount of effort this spring fighting crap like this in my state - there were four bills that specifically targeted transgender people in specific, and 23 that overall tried to harm LGBT people in general. One sixth of all the anti-LGBT bills that were introduced this year in states happened here in Texas.

So my point is that this stuff is real, and these people are after us. Maybe they'll calm down, but that isn't assured - marriage equality is liable to stir the hornet's nest. I wish none of this were true, but unfortunately, it is true, and these things represent a direct assault on our ability to survive as transgender people in these states. It is really that serious.

The problem is that when you have nice, tidy defining labels, these people have and will use them to write laws that define us. Given their history, malice, and cluelessness towards us, we do not want laws that try to divide us up. We just don't.

For example, here in Texas, by all reasonable logic, I ought to be able to marry my boyfriend. Yeah, we are both trans. I'm MtF, he's FtM - my birth certificate says "M", his says "F". Despite our unconventional appearances from the perspectives of a county clerk, we ought to be able to marry. However, despite all that, there are genetic issues with us - we both have "Y" chromosomes. So we might not be able to marry here until marriage equality happens. This is broken beyond any logic.

And look - a lot of us are from states where you can't change your birth certificate, not really (thanks Texas), but live in states that require you to change your birth certificate to be able to change your name and gender marker on state ID. The catch-22's and generally screwed up messes many of us find ourselves in are all caused by the patchwork of laws that try to define and regulate gender. This stuff just needs to be removed from virtually all of our laws.


I actually think Reine has a good point up to the point of private things like surgery..
it really is what you do that matters... but what you do is really HOW YOU LIVE not what medical procedures you did..

Why does any of this matter? Here's some situations in life, what does my history as a trans woman have to do with any of this:
1. I apply for a job?
2. I travel through an airport?
3. I meet someone casually, or at work?
4. I apply for state identification or licenses? (why do they need to know my gender at all - there's a picture of meright there!)
5. I get a marriage license?
6. I choose to donate blood?
7. I'm stopped for a routine traffic stop?
8. I go on a date with someone? (I've never slept with them - and I may not.)
9. I meet another trans person in a support group?

I might and probably would disclose things about myself in that context because it might be helpful to others in attendance who are new. I NEVER inquire someone else's medical status unless I am trying to help them get medical care. I do not talk about, nor speculate on, what anyone else does, will do, or has done in the past. I strongly discourage such talk about others. Obviously people are free to talk about themselves. And if the do, so be it, but I have seen real harm come from this stuff.

For example, there is a woman in my group who is non-hormone, non-op. (We've talked about it.) She has felt ashamed to be part of the group because she isn't medically able to do some of the things the rest of us can medically. She didn't attend the group for a very long time because of this. I had to sit her down and tell her as far as I was concerned, she's just a woman, just exactly like the rest of us.

The distinction between someone who does transition and someone who does not transition really doesn't buy you *anything* in the situations above, except that all of them run into state / federal rules where people have created rules seemingly solely for the reason of making rules.

Obviously a trans support group is going to talk about these matters, and sometimes talk about them a lot. But even there, there is a time and a place for these talks.


i have got the questions and i calmly explain...i get more flak for it here than i get in the real world where it actually matters.

I'm certainly not trying to give you flak. You are entitled to feel how you feel, and I actually understand and sympathize having the desire to have a shorthand to sort of summarize all the things we have to do to transition and be our true selves. However, I sincerely feel that making that stuff the subject of conversation about is simply prone to do more harm than good. That's certainly how it's worked out in the past. That stuff just doesn't need to be part of the public discourse.

Within the community, do I really want to treat crossdressers differently than I'd treat anyone else? You tell me your name, what pronouns to use if it isn't just sledgehammer obvious, and unless I know you intimately, do I really need to know anything else? Does any of it matter?

I reach out to the local CD community here in Dallas. There's been a historically bad relationship between the group I'm a part of, and that community. And I think that emphasizing those differences, which absolutely has happened, has done a lot of harm. There are women who identified as CD who have realized "oh crap, I'm really a woman," but who've felt uncomfortable approaching my group for support in their transitions. This alone makes me not too keen on divisive terms in our community. The hostility between CD groups and groups of trans women is long standing, and well documented. Some of us who are women end up in these groups, really by mistake, but it happens, and it happens enough that I believe it is a real problem.

Anyway, I have no problems with how you or anyone else self-identifies Kaitlyn. I personally hate the word "transsexual" for a lot of reasons (I have a really, really long list of them!), but people who are comfortable with it should of course use it. I don't mean to try to invalidate how you feel - I'm really just asking the question "what does this particular word buy you?" I asked myself the same questions, and ultimately, I had to agree that it did me more harm than good.

I also don't think you are some type of elitist or anything nasty or negative Kaitlyn, I think your conduct on the forum for a long time should show there is no possibility of that being true. You are consistently constructive and a very nice woman. So I hope I've not made you feel otherwise (and if I have, please accept my apology), and if anyone else has, then shame on them, because you aren't.

I simply disagree with you on this matter.

[Dana44]

Transgender does not equal transsexual. Aye yie yi, There ere are new glossaries out that relates all of the terms. transvestite is suppressed. So that puts us CD's under the transgender umbrella. Transsexual is the after operation to female. Dang, she is a female isn't she? So she should be a female not a transsexual. I do agree with PaulaQ that transsexual is not a good representation of them. By golly, they took all of this effort to become female. So be it. Man we are what we are and nobody should put us in a bucket. This is where laws are passed for that label and some may not be good.

[becky77]

If I'm Transexual (not a very nice name), I'm a woman that was born male.
If I'm Transgender, by your definition I'm little different to a Drag queen??

Transsexual to Drag queen couldn't be anymore different , so how can they possibly be in the same category.

Transsexuals should be under the female umbrella, this is the issue. The vast majority of people in the Transgender umbrella are male identified and this is why TS don't want to be included.

I'm not sure why I still come on here.
In the real world all my friends are female, I can't get on with Transgender people. Yet on here I'm told I belong not with my female friends but with other trans people.
That simply isn't the case.

[PaulaQ]

If I'm Transgender, by your definition I'm little different to a Drag queen??


Of course not. You are totally different than that, and so am I. The point is that in terms of your legal protections and rights, there really should be no difference in what you can and cannot do under the law.

The point of using a term with such a nebulous definition is that we define ourselves. We don't give them a tidy label to divide us up. Because they will, and it will not be to our benefit.

[flatlander_48]

.Deann thinks its not worth the bother

No, you missed it.

The point is, because we as a community cannot agree on who we are and how we should come together, we abdicated. Since we didn't, or couldn't, fill the void the media at large did it for us. Once you lose the narrative it is VERY hard to get it back.

Also, you need to understand that long, drawn out definitions don't play well at all with people who really don't want to listen. Similarly, if you want to explain to someone how an engine works, you don't start with combustion theory, volumetric efficiency and tribology. The message needs to be tailored to the audience. If it's more than they can, or want to, absorb they will just glaze over and nothing will change.

So, help me understand. Since you want to separate yourself from us, does that also mean that you do not want our support?

Further, the word is Transgender. It is NOT transgendered, even though Merriam-Webster includes that. Transgender is an adjective and not a verb. An adjective doesn't have a past tense.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Goodness everyone! Y'all need to stop debating the terms! There will NEVER be any agreement, it will continue to be a circular discussion and a waste of time (some people are rather tenacious with their views).

Just say what you do, no one can argue with that! :)

So Kaitlyn, for example, is physically, socially, and legally transitioned.

My SO, as another example, does not seek physical or legal transition, is comfortable identifying as a man in large parts of his life, considers him/herself gender flexible, and enjoys the freedom to express her femininity at will.

I know the above two sentences are a few words longer than saying "transsexual" or "transgender", but it takes a great deal less time to utter a sentence than it does to argue definitions for 10 pages of a thread. :p

As to what to tell employers when interviewing for a job, just tell them you are the gender you plan to work in. Meeting someone socially? Tell them as much as you want to, and if you don't want to elaborate, then don't. It's not that complicated. But in discussion in this forum, a person is hard pressed to identify him/herself as TS if they live as a man, to a TS who is physically, socially, and legally transitioned. How can the same word apply to two vastly different ways to live? So then we get back to identifying ourselves to the people in this forum by what we do. Simple.

Right? It's like a woman who has never been in a relationship with another woman and has always been and continues to be with men, would have a hard time convincing members of the lesbian community that she is lesbian. She could say, however, that she is attracted to women but she has never acted out on it. And then let others make up their own minds about who they think she is. But, no one would be able to argue with her statement about her attractions. Does this make sense?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

thanks reine for framing it that way..
very wise and thoughtful

i abdicate nothing Deann... i do exactly as Reine says..
i say "i am a woman"

and if its important or suits my purpose i talk about my past...what is so tough about that ...in the real world i have never had one issue with this...

nor have i had an issue talking about what i am not...

not one problem, not ever..

[flatlander_48]

i abdicate nothing Deann... i do exactly as Reine says..
i say "i am a woman"

Wrong once again.

I said "we", relating to the community, abdicated. I did NOT say You. Besides, evidently you are not part of the community that I was speaking about. And please try to spell my name correctly.

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

ya'll do realize that the transgender community isn't ALL MALE TO FEMALE right?


Stop saying that transgenders = transsexual= WOMEN. Get it?

I don't really care what you call yourselves. I do care, as a TS that I get the same rights as a cisgender anything. If you all can't see why we need to stand for this then fine...go claim you don't want anything to do with any other part ...I just hope you never get arrested an put in a male cell because you didn't care, or you get thrown out of a restaurant because you didn't care...that you LOSE your child because you didn't care

Because you see, there is a fine line you all are walking, even if you stay at home and don't ever go out. Things right now are almost tolerable but it wasn't that long ago you would be hospitalized and maybe forced to have a lobotomy. Getting to play dress up and not worrying about going to jail or being institutionalized didn't just happen without someone making waves.

Care...don't care. If you are so self centered you think that things around you don't matter, I really feel for you.

(And y'all wonder why the transmen don't post or stay here... Self centered much?)

and this is done.