Discussion regarding Caitlyn Jenner

[DonnaT]

I wonder if I'm outing myself on my 'male' FB page. My older brother is understanding to the plight of our trans youth and young adult trans men, but not for Jenner, and refuses to call her Caitlyn.

I asked him, if he was able to talk to John Wayne, would he call him Marion. No response.

Now he's cited the a--hole Dr. Paul McHugh and his 2004 anti-trans article “Surgical Sex” (http://www.firstthings.com/article/2004/11/surgical-sex). He said he wanted to illustrate a different point of view.

So, I had to respond with a long post to explain why McHugh's point of view is erroneous.

I followed up with my being an electrical engineer and was familiar with Lynn Conway, etc. etc. hoping to throw him off the scent. My mom is the only one in that part of the family that knows.

As the conversation continues, what I've gathered is that his issue is mainly with Jenner, citing Jenner's move through life living a full as a male (marriage, fatherhood,athletics).

I pointed out that just because Jenner took a different path, that does not make it any less real than Lynn's or thousands of others. Many try to "man-up", like former Navy SEAL Kristin Beck. This is likely one reason Jenner did so well at the Olympics, trying to man-up.

Many eventually realize that transition is the right path. He believes that children who have this dysphoria should be nurtured and be permitted the identity to which they relate. So I pointed out that Jenner was once a child, and as a child had this dysphoria. It doesn't go away.

Additionally, I pointed out that at least Jenner's children are supportive, apparently, since they have yet to voice any displeasure at Caitlyn's transition.

My wife didn't want me to continue further with the discussion. :)

[ReluctantDebutant]

Bruce Jenner's Olympic achievements mean a lot to a lot of different people. Bruce stood out as a male icon to many from that generation and that is how many people remember Caitlyn. Cher has a difficult time coming to terms with Chaz who was once her daughter Chastity. When such a drastic change occurs in some one who is special to you it is hard for them to give up the person they knew. It might not be a dislike of Caitlyn just a loss of Bruce.

[PaulaQ]

One of the reasons I think some men react so badly to Caitlyn is because of Bruce's athletic achievements. Human beings are hierarchical - we want to know our place in the pecking order, for the most part. Men who have athletic prowess are awarded very high status in the eyes of others. I observed this with my roommate, who is a former pro athlete. She had a bunch of friends who were her friends because she was a kickass athlete at one time.

Once she came out to them, suddenly they had a problem. The person who they had, all this time, brown-nosed because of their athletic prowess was now telling them "I'm a woman." This is intolerable to the male ego. Even relatively crap former high-school athletes will make fun of my roommate if she just mentions she used to play sports. They just assume, as men, they were superior to her in whatever trifling little endeavor she might have done. In point of fact, unless you are a particularly elite athlete, she was better at sports than you. Doesn't matter what you did, probably. She was exceptionally gifted. This has brought down a bunch of hate on her from some former friends during her transition.

In essence, they got beaten by a girl, and it bothers them. They don't know where they fit in the hierarchy anymore! Are they really men enough? It's one thing if a bigger man bests them - but a woman!?!? Inconceivable!

So look, Caitlyn was arguably the best athlete on planet earth at one time. Didn't matter who you were - she was a better athlete than you.

And we now know, she's a woman.

That massive hissing sound you started hearing in the background after her interview with Diane Sawyer is the sound of hundreds of millions of male egos deflating, and they are not happy about it.

[Persephone]

Thank you for sticking up for Caitlyn in a family discussion. It is interesting to see how otherwise reasonable people balk at accepting her. Even here there are some who see her as some sort of "special case," not quite one of us. Perhaps because our ages are similar I particularly identify with her experiences and the personal pain she has gone through.

You seem to have done a great job so far in handling the conversation but your older brother sounds unwilling to listen to your point of view on this. Apparently he isn't going to change. Although not suggesting that your brother is a pig, you might have reached the point where "You can't teach a pig to sing... It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Hugs,
Persephone.

[kimdl93]

Why bother. Sounds like your brother is drinking the intolerance kool aid. I doubt Caitlyn cares what he thinks. I certainly don't

[LeaP]

The pattern of people claiming to understand or accept young transitioners but not older transitioners is not unique to men, nor is it limited to questions of ego. I'm sure egos play for some. Others, including some younger transitioners, disbelieve on the basis of what they see as intensity differences. Others will stick on moral or ethical points like responsibilities to spouse, family, and other commitments that they see as different for older people. Still others can't see past what they thought they knew in the person. Some view gender issues as a phenomenon that emerges naturally in younger people but only as a disorder or breakdown in older people. Cultural views of men play differently at different ages as well. Older men – unless they are particularly wealthy, important, or well-connected – are often viewed as used up and disposable at some level. Thus an older man transitioning might be viewed as a ridiculous figure while a younger person transitioning may be viewed sympathetically. Issues of age and beauty in our culture play, too. That is, because MtF transition is assumed to be about presentation, sex, and choice - cross sex gender identity not being understood by most – transitioning while older can be viewed as rather pointless. You even see variations of this sentiment in the cross-dresser community when people say things like "I might have thought about transitioning when I was younger, but I'm too old and too ugly now".

You hit a certain age when anything remotely out of the ordinary you might do is subject to questioning. I'm there now and I'm getting some of those same objections.

You don't need to get into a lot of agonizing personal detail with people. They may or may not accept the real answer, but it is this: Gender issues manifest themselves in a variety of well-known patterns. Those are driven by both individual characteristics as well as environment. Despite the early transitions of a few, people in my age range generally repressed or suppressed their gender issues. We held them back until we no longer could. And despite the difficulties, the criticism, lack of acceptance, and all the rest that can go with late transition, we are not the tragedies. Those are the people who live out the remainder of their lives as something they never were, far below their potential, in pain, and in the dark. And, of course, the other tragedy is the attitude that maintains that it is better that way.

Caitlyn knocked it out of the park, addressing along the way just about every point mentioned above.

[pamela7]

That massive hissing sound you started hearing in the background after her interview with Diane Sawyer is the sound of hundreds of millions of male egos deflating, and they are not happy about it.


a-ha-ha-hahahaha... i recently started playing squash again, lost every match for a while, including against a lady player. Thing is, in every sport i've observed/played, the women are technically better and team better too - less ego indeed!!!

[Bria]

I think Paula's observations make a lot of sense. I have never been one to be greatly impressed be professional sports figures. Many of them have used hormones to get where they are. How much of a parallel is that to those that use other hormones to get to where they need to be. Hmmmm, who is real! Maybe I don't need to know that, each person can choose their own path.

Hugs, Bria

[STACY B]

Not much being said on my Face book so far but a few things here and there, But I almost got my fill of the little bit that has rolled by, Yall know me it ain't gonna take much to pop off on some folks.

Whats so Dam Sad is if they only knew how wrong an Stupid they sound about this stuff, There still talking about Gay stuff an the normal Dummy Crap, Most of us on here are so Dam Far past that STUPID TALK it just makes me sick to hear it an how they embarrass themselves REALLY.
But I am being a Good Girl an holding my Lips so far. Just depends on how long this trend lasts , We shall see?

[PaulaQ]

The pattern of people claiming to understand or accept young transitioners but not older transitioners is not unique to men, nor is it limited to questions of ego.

Agreed. I was specifically talking about sports figures. I observed the stuff I was talking about with my roommate. I mean I got rejected by quite a lot of people when I transitioned, but none of those were as brutal as some of the stuff my roommate got from her former "friends."

What really frustrates me are people who question older transitioners - but then also question whether or not kids can know they need to transition. I feel like asking these people "what's the magic correct age to figure this out then?" But of course from their perspective, no age is ever right.

[Gillian Gigs]

I think that PaulQ hit the nail square on the head. There are a lot of testostrone laden guys right now wondering how they are going to prove who they are, as sports now has a wrinkle in it.

[flatlander_48]

I pointed out that just because Jenner took a different path, that does not make it any less real than Lynn's or thousands of others. Many try to "man-up", like former Navy SEAL Kristin Beck. This is likely one reason Jenner did so well at the Olympics, trying to man-up.

I think what's happened is an overcompensation. There is a parallel here in men screwing every female that comes within arms length as they are (consciously or unconsciously) trying to convince themselves that they are heterosexual.

[sometimes_miss]

So look, Caitlyn was arguably the best athlete on planet earth at one time. Didn't matter who you were - she was a better athlete than you. And we now know, she's a woman.
And I think it may stick in their craw a bit, that a 'sissy' was a better man they they are or ever could be, and they have no way to dispute it.
Then you have to add this, which may frighten a lot of men: If the world's greatest male athlete could turn into a sissy, oh my god, I'm a really great male athlete (so many men really believe this crapola it's amazing) maybe it could happen to me! So I'd better behave like the most anti gay anti trans MAN that I could imagine, so no one would ever think that maybe I might become a sissy too.

[MissTee]

For certain, the Bruce-to-Caitlyn story has amped up the quantity of conversations arounds gender identity and all it's many variations. Since the story broke I have been party to no less than several dozen group discussions sparked by the mention of the Vanity article. To me it's interesting to listen to all the table top philosophers. It's a good study in understanding how the world around us is prepared (or not) to digest all the counter birth gender dimensions -- including this group.

That said, I listen but I'm really not interested in commenting. When prodded to weigh in, I've told several groups I felt Caitlyn simply said, "this is who I am." She did not say, "This is who I am. Is that OK with you?"

It has worked every time in deflecting the group.

[Eryn]

I wonder if I'm outing myself on my 'male' FB page. My older brother is understanding to the plight of our trans youth and young adult trans men, but not for Jenner, and refuses to call her Caitlyn.

One can express support for another person, just as many people are currently expressing support for Kaitlyn, without outing oneself.

Your brother sounds like someone who enjoys being contrary. He knows that refusing to use the correct name annoys you for some reason so he uses that knowledge to needle you.

Now that you have both expressed your views, why continue to argue the issue? Neither of you is going to change the other's mind. Move on to other issues.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I've always thought that spending many years of one's life perfecting the art of projecting a small round object through the air is a dubious use of one's time, or what ever the sport might be, except that under certain circumstances it can result in a huge income. Certainly no dumber than spending your life behind a desk in order to maintain a country club membership.

But coming out as transsexual, to an audience of hundreds of millions - that takes guts. In terms of social olympics, that's a big shiny gold. Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of.

[Dana44]

I agree with PaulaQ. The girls that I do cross-fit with are good at athletics. It is all I can do to keep up with them. Of course they are 25 years younger. Yet they are strong. Every once in a while another male tries it. One told me it was the hardest workout he ever did. He has never been back. I always thought men would like competition. But they do not like being outclassed by a woman. At my age, I just run with babes and try to keep up.

[DonnaT]

Now that you have both expressed your views, why continue to argue the issue? Neither of you is going to change the other's mind. Move on to other issues.
Thanks. Already have :)

[Vivian Best]

I've read that many TSs really get into macho situations and jobs and really excel trying to prove to themselves they are really males. Many, such as myself thought marriage would cure them. I've spent a lifetime looking for something that doesn't exist!

[DorothyElizabeth]

"I've always thought that spending many years of one's life perfecting the art of projecting a small round object through the air is a dubious use of one's time, ..."

I beg to differ. When I was in the ninth grade, I tried working as a golf caddy. I lasted one week, because the members treated the caddies like the scum of the earth. I thought to myself, "This is an arrogant, arrogant game. I am never going to take it up." Fast forward to about 2004. My wife's parents telephoned us and said that if we wanted to, they would pay for us to come spend Memorial Day weekend with them at Eaglesmere, PA. They would pay for the B&B and for a lesson and a round or two of golf. MY wife was an avid golfer (zero handicap!!), so I said I'd go along. I vowed to myself that I would not be a spoilsport, and that I would endure whatever it took to make her happy. It turned out, I had a wonderful time, and here's the important part: Playing golf takes exactly the same kind of focus and concentration as playing music. After I started messing about with golf, my musical performance went up about three levels.

SO I can honestly say that there is some benefit to chasing a ball around.

As to Ms. Jenner: I wish her well, and I believe she has done the world a great service by openly "coming out", even if the immediate benefit is only to create more open discussion. I wish, though, that people would stop going on at length about her beauty, and remember her for her athleticism and business acumen. I almost feel as if, because she has decided to present as a woman, people no longer take her seriously as a person, and see her merely as a sex or beauty object.

[Michelle789]

Paula, very well said.

I believe the higher up you were on the male hierarchy the worse your friends reactions will be when you come out to them as transgender.

Transwomen who were kick-ass athletes and very macho as men will be hated by men because the men feel "I was beaten by a girl" and their male egos are deflated. Women won't like them either because they had WAY too much male privilege. Women feel these manly men are threatening their safety and can't be trusted.

I had a very good female friend of mine tell me that it was much easier for her to accept me and to re-gender me because she felt a certain level of comfort that she only ever feels around women. She said that it would have been much harder to accept and re-gender someone who was macho, chauvinistic as a man.

There was a guy in my AA group that only met me once as a man, and he thought I was gay, so he wasn't too shocked when I came out the next time I went there (two weeks later). He said that if some of the macho guys came out it would have been a much bigger shock.

I lost very few friends and the ones that I lost were incredibly insecure as men. They were the macho acting men who didn't accomplish too much in life. Men who were very successful and secure in their masculinity, work solid 12-step programs, or men who have strong feminine qualities, but are still men, I found to be much more accepting towards me.

However, most men don't fall into any of the above categories. So yeah, lots of men's egos have been deflated.

The same thing applies to transmen as well. It doesn't sit well with lots of men that they see this man who was once a woman.

I think most trans discrimination, regardless of whether it comes from the religious fundamentalists, TERFS, men feeling their egos deflated, women feeling threatened by MTFs "invading their spaces", all has the same root. Male privilege. The fact that we value men as greater than women is the root of most trans discrimination - for both MTFs and FTMs. Some of it may be from homosexuality too. But homophobia is rooted in sexism too. If a man is attracted to a man he might feel he is less of a man since men are supposed to be attracted to women.

The other two reasons behind transphobia are fear of the unknown, and fear of change.

[~Joanne~]

Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of.

Like what? What has she done that 1000's before her haven't done other than steal another 15 minutes of fame? Because every other TS that knew who they were went and fixed everything they felt was wrong to become a woman. All Caitlyn has done is have some plastic surgery and breast implants, she didn't have genital surgery and thats a sign that she is probably unsure of who she is and just may go back to being bruce at some point, not she couldn't after the full surgery.

[CynthiaD]

Caitlyn is my hero. She could have kept the whole thing quiet. Retired from the world in hiding, but she didn't she splashed the whole thing out for everybody to see. She stood up and said "this is who I am, like it or not." Not many people have that kind of courage. As for living most of her life as a man, she paid her dues! She took the cards she was dealt and played them well. She did everything a man is "supposed" to do, and she did them very, very well. But in the end, she was true to herself. Brava!

Perhaps the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I've also paid my dues. I was a high school athlete (a poor one). I was a construction worker. I was in the army when the army was all male. I'm a husband and a father and a grandfather. I was and still am a good provider. Now I need to be true to myself, and I figure I've earned the right to do so.

[AllieSF]

So Joanne, according to you all of our TS members here who have not had or do not plan on having genital surgery are probably unsure who they are?? Please explain. My understanding is that TS's fix what they personally determine needs to be fixed to reach a congruent and healthy state of mind. That may or may not include GRS/SRS. I know several TS's who know exactly who they are and how far they want to go with corrective surgeries.

Donna, it sounds like your brother has varying opinions about all this. Maybe getting it partially correct is better than nothing. Good luck.

[~Joanne~]

according to you all of our TS members here who have not had or do not plan on having genital surgery are probably unsure who they are?? Please explain

I don't know if I would have said it like that. Those planning on full transitioning are the girls that do believe they were meant to be born a woman but ended up in the wrong body. They take every measure to make it right, most certainly including genital surgery. If You truly believe that your a woman trapped in a man's body, why would you even consider the notion of keeping male genitals? Would you truly be able to claim that your a woman while doing so? Wouldn't that make you basically an surgery enhanced CD?

Believe me, I am happy for Caitlyn, happy that she can live her life as she wants and that she has brought the transgendered community to the fore front of public awareness but I also see an "out" and that makes me wonder if this whole thing may be a publicity stunt at some point. It just doesn't make sense to claim what she does and not go all the way.

This of coarse in JMO, right or wrong.

[stefan37]

What about those TS that don't have the funds? Are not healthy enough or have conditions where the surgery could complicate their conditions or even death? Are they not truly TS. GRS is a complicated, major procedure that can and in many cases have major complications. Many of us that save and scrimp to pay for it may not have the funds to pay for revision surgery. And in some cases revision surgery can not correct the complication.

Transition is a very public serious process and the transitioner regardless of financial or social status can incur huge losses. Any individual that has a NEED to transition does so at their own peril.

[Alice Torn]

It is too bad, that Jenner is unfortunately associated with the Kardashian three ring circus. Being connected to that, makes many people take Caitlyn as a circus show. And, the unfortunate car accident where a woman died, and Caitlyn is being sued bigtime now. I would guess there is tons of pressure and stress, now.

[Lorileah]

she didn't have genital surgery and thats a sign that she is probably unsure of who she is and just may go back to being bruce at some point, not she couldn't after the full surgery.

:facepalm: you really really said that? You said she HAD to have surgery to really be real? And you all wonder why some people hate others on these boards? You know you don't have to have surgery to be a transsexual right? You do know that some people take their time to get to the goal and they don't rush...right? You know I Haven't had surgery....right? :Angry3:Right now, I am so glad this is all online...you really have angered me.

Jenner's life is her own, her path is her own. She has opened up lines of communication that 1000's of us have tried for years but couldn't get the attention...well we now HAVE the attention. Your definition of sure isn't my definition of sure. :Angry3:




I don't know if I would have said it like that. Those planning on full transitioning are the girls that do believe they were meant to be born a woman but ended up in the wrong body. They take every measure to make it right, most certainly including genital surgery. If You truly believe that your a woman trapped in a man's body, why would you even consider the notion of keeping male genitals? Would you truly be able to claim that your a woman while doing so? Wouldn't that make you basically an surgery enhanced CD?



This of coarse in JMO, right or wrong.



(edit, this is what happens when I don't keep reading so I have to add.)

That is exactly what you said. That she wasn't sure who she was because she didn't have surgery. That is the biggest load of shit I have ever heard. There are a lot of transsexuals who are sure they are trans and they don't have surgery for a myriad of reasons. You honestly believe you have to have the physical body to be true? Maybe Jenner is satisfied with who she is at this point. If she isn't planning on having sex, maybe just the adjustment she has gone through is enough. Having a vagina doesn't make you positive that you are trans (or a woman). TSs can and do live their lives with no adjustments hormonal or physical and are perfectly happy. You claim they are unsure...

All these years on those boards and you still make that statement?

[~Joanne~]

You know you don't have to have surgery to be a transsexual right?

Yes, I also agree that for some it can't be afforded, is very dangerous, and some feel that only going so far is as far as they want to go but at the same time how can any of them be considered a woman? or even lay that claim? They can't. Since this is about Bruce, surely he can afford the surgery, so if he truly is a woman, then why not complete the process?


Jenner's life is her own, her path is her own. She has opened up lines of communication that 1000's of us have tried for years but couldn't get the attention...well we now HAVE the attention.

Keyword: ATTENTION. Is it good or bad though? How much of it is real? Let's look at it realistically, another round of facial surgery and the implants removed and she is back to bruce now isn't she? I am not by any means saying that this would happen but look at the family he has been part of now for too many years to count. Is it beneath them to do this just to get more attention? no, it isn't. The attention unfortunately isn't just on her, the K's are getting a lot of it too.

I am not trying to take from the seriousness of being transgendered here, dilute the struggles of it, or even say that she isn't being real but there are a lot of unanswered questions, she wanted the limelight, you got it. You don't get to be upfront and centered and still be a private person. So far most of what I have seen or read has been positive, the only problem I havve had with this whole thing is claiming to be a woman and this quote: Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of.

I am sure their are a lot more TG women out there that have done more for the community than Caitlyn has. To make such a claim should be backed up with some facts, other than posing for a magazine and having a big party for the last week, what has she done?!?!?!?!

[stefan37]

What you aren't getting is transition a very public process. There was no way Jenner could have stealthily transitioned. Reversing facial reconstruction is damn near impossible and the outcome would be a train wreck. Do you even have any idea what is involved in SRS? The surgery is a major procedure that has the potential for dune serious complications. The after care and dilation regime is intense and your life and schedule revolve around dilating regularly 3-5 times a day for at least 6 months.

I know many TS in their mid to late 60's that absolutely identify and live 24/7 as women. They are not eligible for surgery because of underlying health issues

You may want to seriously educate yourself on TS issues before spouting off ideas that are contrary to how TS individuals identify. Also for many FTM the surgery is very, very extensive ( can you count to 100 grand) with no guarantee it will be successful. Are you going to tell them they are not male because they don't have a penis?

[lynda]

all I have to say is , all my best and love to Caitlyn, and long live the sisterhood , love hugs lynda

[Krisi]

It's best to just understand and accept that some people will have different ideas than you and trying to correct or "educate" them is pointless and just leads to hard feelings. Real life is a lot like this web forum in that respect. Nobody ever changes anyone else's mind, the arguing just escalates until someone walks away or the moderators lock the thread.

[Eryn]

...how can any of them be considered a woman? or even lay that claim? They can't...

You're wrong, and it is disturbing that there are some in our community that still believe that only a void between her legs defines a woman.

Down that same path lies the concept that only a women with a uterus is truly female which also leaves post-op transwomen in the starting gate. Do we really want to go down the path our enemies want us to follow?

[marshalynn]

YEA, what LORILEAH said for me also, good job Lorileah,,,Marshalynn

[Lorileah]

Yes, I also agree that for some it can't be afforded, is very dangerous, and some feel that only going so far is as far as they want to go but at the same time how can any of them be considered a woman? or even lay that claim? They can't. Since this is about Bruce, surely he can afford the surgery, so if he truly is a woman, then why not complete the process?

First help me out, what do you consider yourself? Cross dresser? Genderqueer? Transsexual? Guy who likes women's clothing?

Do you not get the whole spectrum of being TG? Let's break this down (and I am so much trying to be polite OK?)

If we are just talking transsexuals, people who are female inside (I hate that phrase too...) but were born male physically.

There are a whole spectrum of people who are transsexual. Some never have hormones or surgery. They are content living their lives as they are. You don't consider them women? (Ok all the non-hormone, non-surgical TSs, this person doesn't think you are real...anyone want the first shot?)

Moving along. Regardless of how much money you have you may decide that hormones are all you need. No surgery. Even IF you want the surgery there is a lot besides money you have to consider. They just don't let you walk in the front door of the hospital and say..."Transition me" Caitlyn may very well be one in that category. You don't consider us who are in process women? I may not have surgery, you want to tell me...to my face...that I am not a woman? There is a process we have to go through...you don't think I'm real? You don't think I know who I am? You better rethink what you are thinking. If you consider yourself a TS and you are dead set that surgery HAS to be the end result, you are a poor example of being TS. You've been here HOW long? If you are TS then why haven't you had the surgery.

OK let's move along. Some people (there are some on here) who have partial surgery, maybe just removing the testes. It may not be a financial decision, but they are no less a woman?

Some have the complete surgery... yay! they are women! but...they were before the surgery

This really just angers me to no end. Your definition of who is a woman and who isn't.




Keyword: ATTENTION. Is it good or bad though? How much of it is real? Let's look at it realistically, another round of facial surgery and the implants removed and she is back to bruce now isn't she? First who are YOU to judge what she is thinking or doing? Put yourself in her place. How can you say that she isn't real, that she isn't living exactly what she is saying? Granted she is a public figure but what you are saying is mean spirited and very likely false. YOUR doubts about her are irrelevant. Very few who have done what she has done reverse it
I am not by any means saying that this would happen but look at the family he has been part of now for too many years to count. Awesome guilt by association...way to go. Exactly what many people think of YOU. You look like a drag Queen, so you must be gay and a drag queen...right? There are clowns are perverts that get tagged as T...your a TG...therefore... This is absolutely the worst logic I have seen. You don't consider her feelings, you tag her because the people she is around are media stars.
Is it beneath them to do this just to get more attention? no, it isn't. The attention unfortunately isn't just on her, the K's are getting a lot of it too. Please please never be in a position where someone in your family does something that may be questionable...because by gawd, you must not be above that same behavior.


there are a lot of unanswered questions, she wanted the limelight, Yeah exactly why she waited what 20 years to come out...there needed to be a spotlight? She was in that spotlight 40 years ago
the only problem I havve had with this whole thing is claiming to be a woman and this quote: Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of. OK lets play people who have advanced the trans cause...go...LaVerne Cox...easy but wait! She's on TV too...maybe she did it to get the part...Janet MocK... good now you named two...but how many in the straight world BEFORE Jenner knew about her? Oh...she is an author...maybe she came out to sell books....keep going...Chaz Bono...celebrity. there are several here on these boards who have fought for gender equality...but NOW they are getting noticed because....?


I am sure their are a lot more TG women out there that have done more for the community than Caitlyn has. To make such a claim should be backed up with some facts, other than posing for a magazine and having a big party for the last week, what has she done?!?!?!?! The old, "what have you done for me lately" syndrome. This isn't a sprint. What is she supposed to do...you hammer the message daily, you start to be ignored...

So, if I may ask...What have YOU done for the TG cause lately?

[Erika Lyne]

I hate to ask a question that may have already been answered in the Vanity Fair interview as for the specifics of Caitlyn Jenner, I have not had the chance to read the story yet but, just to add to the conversation of who qualifies as a woman part of this thread, who says Caitlyn isn't IN transition? She may be working through the steps and stages to qualify for bottom surgery. The doctors' and psychologists' hoops to jump through are many as has been shared by those who have been forward enough to allow the world in on the whole procedure. We may not know the facts behind all this and therefore shouldn't judge her as a wanting to have bottom surgery or not.

I do not think that her having not had or not wanting to have, if that be the case, the surgery qualifies or disqualifies her as a woman. I believe it is in the presentation that will make us most in the gender of our mental state. Most people are lucky enough to be born into a mental state that matches their physical gender, they are so lucky. Us who are somewhere trapped between genders are fraught with descisions for our entire lives asking questions about where we truely belong. Some are lucky enough to have the financial backing to change what does not match, some have family support to change. Many are stuck to quietly suffer because of lack of support and a personal desire to fit into society that has been so ingrained in our collective psyche that there is a long personal battle before they may finally acknowledge where they stand. Jenner may have been a part of this group because she is transitioning so late in her life.

As far as "wanting the lime light," I don't think this is truely the case. The very first time I had heard about Caitlyn being in transition was in a tabloid news show about her terrible car accident. She was plastered all over the screen with her longer hair and slight female appearance. There was more time dedicated to how she was dressed and carrying herself than there was about the horrors of the accident. I don't think she had asked to be outed. She was thrown into it by the tabloids. With this as the case, I do believe she has done more than any trans-people as of late. Did she do this deliberately? Maybe not. I do not think she was trying to be an advocate, spokes person or poster child for the entire trans-spectrum or any of it for that matter. However, I do believe she was trying to do damage control for her own personal life. Living with the K's and being a historical Olympic athlete surely has afforded her some PR people and all that comes with celebrity. Now, she could have tried to sweep it all under the rug, cut her hair and put the clothes away long enough for the tabloids to pick up their next victim to write about but instead she slapped them in the face and said,"Call me Caitlyn." THAT is the single biggest move done lately for all of us in the trans-spectrum IMHO. Was it damage control? Probably but it surely has opened the discussion about the trans community. Never has there been such a single event, person or time where the discussion of needs of this community been put on any lengthy enough discussion in the general public as there is now because of Ms. Jenner. Was her outing started as a deliberate act by Caitlyn? I think not. Nobody wants to be in a car accident as she was. Using hind sight, as she had made a few cameo appearances in her family's shows her appearance was changing slightly each time she was on the screen. She was probably working to a slow but calculated outing so that when it did happen it would have been a collective,"That figures." from the viewers and tabloids. I've used this approach with the few people that I'm out with, granted not as many as Caitlyn, and the "That figures." approach is very safe and the least disruptive method to revealing that I've found. This may have been her initial approach but the car accident pushed all that to the side.

[lynda]

hi girls, I just want to say we may bicker, disagree ,catcall , and bitch, between each other, but to win this battle, we have to do what every other group did . we must stand together to the outside world, I know we are all in different stages when it comes to cding, different views, but we have to be united front in our fight for the right just to be ourselves. we must stand with our sisters , who out there every day and for a lot of us who do it in sercret , or just part time. we have to stand united , the act of war divide and conquer. long live the sisterhood hugs peace, love Lynda

[Terrylynn]

Since it is currently impossible for a human to change their biological state from male to female then this argument seems to be about becoming a woman in a conceptual sense in which case body modification is optional. I imagine the more accurately one can appear as a female the easier it would be to transition.

[Erika Lyne]

...but to win this battle, we have to do what every other group did . we must stand together to the outside world, I know we are all in different stages...
...we have to be united front in our fight for the right just to be ourselves. we must stand with allour sisters...

Lynda,

You are correct.

I've said this very same sentiment a few other times in other posts and I fear that my longer reply to this tread posted earlier may come across as the contrary. That was not my objective. I would love for us to all stand together and face the world as one. The gay pride, lesbian movement, black minority of the '60s, women's sufferage in the U.S. movement all did just that. They stood together. My intent in my earlier post was an effort to support your point of view, even before you said it, not to divide the group. I wished to provide motive behind my remarks, such as when I mentioned Jenner was outed by the tabloids instead of grasping at fame.

The only thing I'd like to add is that a discussion like this can help us find our voice, a singular voice. Caitlyn may have joined us together, united us in a manner that Lynda has mentioned is missing in our plight.

-E

[flatlander_48]

You're wrong, and it is disturbing that there are some in our community that still believe that only a void between her legs defines a woman.

Down that same path lies the concept that only a women with a uterus is truly female which also leaves post-op transwomen in the starting gate. Do we really want to go down the path our enemies want us to follow?

To carry that to the absurd, one would have to say that a woman who has had a hysterectomy is no longer a women.


hi girls, I just want to say we may bicker, disagree ,catcall , and bitch, between each other, but to win this battle, we have to do what every other group did . we must stand together to the outside world, I know we are all in different stages when it comes to cding, different views, but we have to be united front in our fight for the right just to be ourselves. we must stand with our sisters , who out there every day and for a lot of us who do it in sercret , or just part time. we have to stand united , the act of war divide and conquer. long live the sisterhood hugs peace, love Lynda

It is such a simple concept, isn't it?

DeeAnn

[DonnaT]

What has she done that 1000's before her haven't done other than steal another 15 minutes of fame?

She has more people discussing the issue. For or against doesn't matter, at least they are talking.

She delivered her first motivational speech as a transgender woman at the LGBT Youth Center in Hollywood on June 9, inspiring transgender youth to ‘live their truth’. Thus she's clearly not in it for the fame, besides, she was already famous.

[PaulaQ]

Yes, I also agree that for some it can't be afforded, is very dangerous, and some feel that only going so far is as far as they want to go but at the same time how can any of them be considered a woman? or even lay that claim? They can't. Since this is about Bruce, surely he can afford the surgery, so if he truly is a woman, then why not complete the process?

How about a big, heaping mug o' "It's none of your goddamned business why someone does or doesn't have surgery!"

I'm a woman right now. I live as a woman. My driver's license says "Sex: F" on it.

Is a man who has some type of horrible accident in a war and loses his penis as a result no longer a man? How about we talk about your genitals, ~Joanne~? Are they good enough? Are you are "real man?" Why are we talking about anyone's genitals? My preference is to not talk about mine at all unless dinner, drinks, and, you know the chemistry seems right between me and the other person...

In general, we don't talk about each other's genitals. I don't ask people I'm having lunch with, or who I meet in some casual setting about what's between their legs. But I get asked about mine all the freaking time. For an example:

Luncheon with an "Ally" (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?224145-Luncheon-with-an-quot-Ally-quot&p=3684010&viewfull=1#post3684010)

Do you have any idea how dehumanizing this is? Apparently, as a transgender woman, I am allowed no dignity. Apparently, I should just expect to lift up my skirt, so interested parties, even if they are merely curious, can inspect the groceries and decide if they are to their liking. Or if they are sufficient for me to be considered a "complete woman."

[flatlander_48]

DAMN, Just Damn...

DeeAnn

[Katey888]

Well, nobody can deny that Caitlyn has catalysed discussion everywhere and even in this community to a degree that I haven't seen before... :)

So, on the basis of 'All publicity is good publicity' this has to be good for the entire trans* community, right? I think so... And I think there is sooo much truth in this statement too:


That massive hissing sound you started hearing in the background after her interview with Diane Sawyer is the sound of hundreds of millions of male egos deflating, and they are not happy about it.

As many of you have already agreed with this, I suspect it may even touch some of our community who identify as male in this way. But I do think Joanne should be cut a little slack too for expressing an opinion honestly here - it's easy to take some of these comments out of context without being prepared just to discuss them. So - for example - I think Joanne has a point about the relationship with the Kardashian's and their relationship with the media. Celebrities (of all types) and the weird, unreal media world they exist in DO NOT behave or are always motivated by the same things that 'regular' folk are - the fact that so many have had cosmetic surgery similar to Ms Jenner's (and in some cases radically more and worse) should indicate that they respond to a different set of motivators to most of us... and just as it is impossible to predict who amongst us may transition, it is as equally impossible to say that Ms Jenner would not transition back... I would agree it seems unlikely on current evidence, but it's happened before and no one can predict these things...

I think the discussion and visibility that Caitlyn is facilitating is a huge thing for the TS community, and also - to a slightly lesser extent - the TG or trans* community... we still have that issue of trying to explain just how we are similar and how we are different... but it's a net positive, even here in Blighty.

And keep it friendly here, please. :D

Katey x

[jenni_xx]

Awesome guilt by association

Caitlyn has been in the news, every single day for quite some time now here in the UK. As indeed have the whole Jenner/Kardashian clan. They are, and remain, newsworthy because of the reaction in people they provoke. In the UK, the whole family isn't, by and large, looked on favourably, and many view all of them with disdain. Many people have an opinion about these kind of "reality stars", and they are largely frowned upon and ridiculed. Unfortunately, the whole "issue" with Caitlyn has added fuel to this perception that people have. Reading messages on newspaper websites (written in response to the latest Caitlyn article that (many feel) is being "pushed down our throats"), a common theme throughout is one that no longer wants to hear any more about it. Seen as a farce, a circus act that adds to the perception that the entire family is just a farce, a circus act. They are, simply put, regarded as a family who, for many, should not be taken seriously.

As a consequence, Caitlyn is also seen by many as someone who should not be taken seriously either.

While I agree completely with the point you are making Lorileah, unfortunately this "guilt by association" is very real in people's minds, and in turn doing us no favours whatsoever. Caitlyn, through no fault of her own, it can be argued, is doing more harm than good. And it saddens me deeply that that is the case. At least here in the UK. (I can not, and will not speak for the effect it is having in other countries).

One thing I have thought about - given that this website regards itself as the number one community for crossdressers, families, and friends, and has a large section devoted to transsexuals, has Caitlyn ever ventured here?

[PaulaQ]

As a consequence, Caitlyn is also seen by many as someone who should not be taken seriously either.

While I agree completely with the point you are making Lorileah, unfortunately this "guilt by association" is very real in people's minds, and in turn doing us no favours whatsoever. Caitlyn, through no fault of her own, it can be argued, is doing more harm than good. And it saddens me deeply that that is the case.

How can they take us less seriously than they do? We are not human beings from the perspective of big chunks of the people on planet earth. We are frequently assaulted and murdered simply for who we are. Who the hell cares whether or not they take us seriously? That isn't our most pressing problem, although it is a problem. They need to see us as human beings - or that at least we exist in some form other than highly murderable drug addicts and prostitutes.


One thing I have thought about - given that this website regards itself as the number one community for crossdressers, families, and friends, and has a large section devoted to transsexuals, has Caitlyn ever ventured here?

There is simply no way to know.

[jenni_xx]

How can they take us less seriously than they do? We are not human beings from the perspective of big chunks of the people on planet earth. We are frequently assaulted and murdered simply for who we are. Who the hell cares whether or not they take us seriously? That isn't our most pressing problem, although it is a problem. They need to see us as human beings - or that at least we exist in some form other than highly murderable drug addicts and prostitutes.

I care.

You say that it isn't our most pressing problem. Yet you also say that we are frequently assaulted and murdered for who we are. I, personally, can not think of a more pressing problem than that. I don't want to be assaulted or murdered for who I am. If we are taken seriously, what do you think - that we are more likely to be assaulted/murdered or less likely to be assaulted/murdered? More likely to be seen as human beings or less likely to be seen as human beings?




There is simply no way to know.

Not knowing something is usually what causes me to wonder about something. Hence why I wonder whether Caitlyn has ever ventured here or not.

[PaulaQ]

You say that it isn't our most pressing problem. Yet you also say that we are frequently assaulted and murdered for who we are.

Oh, being not considered as human beings the same as others is our most pressing problem, there is no doubt of this and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

It's just that we are already at the bottom of the societal hierarchy. I don't see how Jenner's reality show background affects this negatively - we're already at rock bottom, so there's no where to go but up.

The reason I think Jenner has been helpful is because as sincere and amazing as some of the trans people who've come out and gained some notoriety are, none of them remotely have the ability to gather attention like Jenner has. People are talking about us in ways that wouldn't have happened for a very, very long time. More importantly, this is creating opportunities for many of us to speak to a public that would otherwise ignore us. I've been on the TV news once, and in the paper several times now. There are hundreds of others us who people want to hear from. And I can assure you, prior to Jenner, that wasn't the case. Not on this scale.

I'm sorry to disagree with you. I'm not trying to be argumentative and I understand how you feel. Your concerns are valid.

[jenni_xx]

Oh, being not considered as human beings the same as others is our most pressing problem, there is no doubt of this and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

I did misunderstand, so thank you for clearing that up.


It's just that we are already at the bottom of the societal hierarchy.

I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do. We're a mere snigger (either behind our backs or to our faces) in the street to most people in comparison.

Now, I'm not for one moment suggesting that the negative reaction some people have towards Caitlyn is going to result in us being ranked lower down than such abhorrent individuals, and so I do completely agree that any negative reaction towards Caitlyn isn't going to result in us being regarded any lower than we already are. My point was more that Caitlyn's exposure in the media isn't, for many people (at least here in the UK) resulting in us being regarded in a better light. I want to make it clear that I don't blame Caitlyn (the indvidual person that she is) for how other people react - I'm merely trying to put across that the exposure we are getting through Caitlyn isn't necessarily doing us any favours either.

You say that Caitlyn has been helpful because of the ability she is able to garner. I would say that this is a fine line - as I said in my first post in this thread, people here in the UK are sick of hearing about it, and are stating that they regard the whole Jenner/Kardiashian clan as a media farce, and Caitlyn, and her situation is being regarded as nothing more than an extension of that. Bruce Jenner may have been an Olympian athlete, but today he is known more for being the father and step-father of a reality-tv-obsessed-family. Had he been known (and as famous) only as the former, as opposed to the latter, then it could have been a whole different ball-game in garnering more respect for us.

Of course the media now wants to hear from us - but I am rather cynical in that respect. We're being listened to, not because of what we have to say, but through our "association" with Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. The media don't want an insight into our minds. They want an insight into Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner's mind. We've become topical because of an individual who is associated to a family that garner column inches. It will be forgotten about by the media soon enough, and in the meantime, people's opinion despite all this media attention will not change.

[PaulaQ]

I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do. We're a mere snigger (either behind our backs or to our faces) in the street to most people in comparison.


We don't hurt anyone. And yet the state where I live attempted to pass four different laws that would have imprisoned me for using a public restroom - effectively barring me from using public spaces at all.

[jenni_xx]

We don't hurt anyone. And yet the state where I live attempted to pass four different laws that would have imprisoned me for using a public restroom - effectively barring me from using public spaces at all.

That's a different discussion entirely.

By the way, we do hurt people. Just not in the physical sense. But again, that is an entirely different discussion.

[flatlander_48]

I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do.

Unfortunately, it doesn't make a lot of difference. Usually we transgender people (in the broad sense of the term) are much more identifiable. You would be hard pressed to tell a pedophile or rapist just by looking at them. No so with us. We are much easier targets.

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

Now I say "Awesome...we are above pedophiles and rapists" Thank you for putting us in a category compared to criminals.

I feel sorry if the people over the pond take Caitlyn less seriously because she is in a reality show family.

Being related to someone doesn't make you like them.

[PaulaQ]

Now I say "Awesome...we are above pedophiles and rapists" Thank you for putting us in a category compared to criminals.


I really do think we're lower than that here in Texas. After all, there is no law that prevents pedophiles and rapists from using public restrooms, but they sure as hell tried to pass four different laws this year that would've made it illegal for me to use a public restroom, because it's assumed that I'm a rapist and / or a pedophile.

[jenni_xx]

Now I say "Awesome...we are above pedophiles and rapists" Thank you for putting us in a category compared to criminals.

I feel sorry if the people over the pond take Caitlyn less seriously because she is in a reality show family.

Being related to someone doesn't make you like them.

Firstly, I didn't put us in a category compared to criminals. In fact, I didn't compare us to criminals at all. Do not put words into my mouth.

Secondly, I agree with you - being related to someone doesn't make you like them. I'm not expressing my view here, I'm simply highlighting the view that many people have expressed here in the UK.

[sometimes_miss]

You're wrong, and it is disturbing that there are some in our community that still believe that only a void between her legs defines a woman.
I believe that it comes from being raised as a boy, and believing that our penis is the center of everything. Its what we are told defines us as better than girls; we have something, they have nothing. Later in life, that concept of a penis being superior to a vulva is constantly reinforced by the rest of the males, in fact lots of females as well, whenever the term pu$$y or sissy is used to insult a boy. It never stops. Grown males continue to believe so strongly that their penis is the center of all female pleasure, despite the fact that over 2/3 of women cannot reach orgasm through vaginal stimulation alone. None of it matters in the penis central world of men. Even guys with small penises insist that they can make any woman come by intercourse. The desperate cling to ignorance out there is astounding. I think here, though, it's a reaction to how the world MIGHT perceive us. Homophobia is very deeply seated in us from childhood on. It's hard to get rid of it entirely, because of the effects it has on our life. We dress up in female clothing, even if we're heterosexual. That alone will make it almost impossible to find a female mate. When you add to that, the possibility that we are in denial about being gay which is suggested by so much of the world, it pretty much eliminates any chance that any woman would be attracted to us. So we insist loudly that we still have nice penises which get nice and hard and can sustain intercourse for great periods of time, all in the effort to convince even one woman that we are still straight. We're in a difficult situation; gay by association.

Keyword: ATTENTION. Is it good or bad though? How much of it is real?
I have to wonder though, I think she knew what she was doing. After all, she could have stayed in the background and avoided as much publicity as she could, and let the younger women of the family remain up front in the spotlight. During the interview, I got the impression that she knew what could happen, and decided that she'd 'let it all hang out' and let the world know exactly what a transsexual was, was not, and what we could be. It definitely started lots of conversations. I did find myself educating a lot of people at work about all the differences, whether they thought I was TS or not no one suggested.

I support Caitlyn because she's gotten the discussion started in so many areas where no one would ever think to mention it. Her decision to stay in the media spotlight will keep the topic current for quite a while. All we can do is hope more people will come to accept gender variations as normal, and accept us for who we really are, not what they used to think we are.

Next up,

It's just that we are already at the bottom of the societal hierarchy.
and then,

I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do. We're a mere snigger (either behind our backs or to our faces) in the street to most people in comparison.
You forget. In lots of people's minds, they think that because we're sexual deviates (their opinion, not mine), we are likely to be pedophiles, and many women think that we dress up as women because we want to get into women's rest rooms to rape them. Absurd, from our point of view, yes. But that's how a lot of people think, perfectly exemplefied by:

We don't hurt anyone. And yet the state where I live attempted to pass four different laws that would have imprisoned me for using a public restroom - effectively barring me from using public spaces at all.
and

I really do think we're lower than that here in Texas. After all, there is no law that prevents pedophiles and rapists from using public restrooms, but they sure as hell tried to pass four different laws this year that would've made it illegal for me to use a public restroom, because it's assumed that I'm a rapist and / or a pedophile.
then

By the way, we do hurt people. Just not in the physical sense. But again, that is an entirely different discussion.
WE don't hurt them. They CHOOSE to feel hurt because they don't like what we do WITH OURSELVES.
There is a difference.

[~Joanne~]

I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do.


Now I say "Awesome...we are above pedophiles and rapists" Thank you for putting us in a category compared to criminals.

You never cease to amaze me. Did you read her whole post? or did you just do as you always do, take a piece out of a paragraph and place it so that it is totally out of context and that it makes the poster look as if they are attacking the community as a whole? This is what has happened to My posts as well. You took whatever little pieces you wanted and placed them as if that was my whole post.

Moving on, I wasn't going to respond to this post again, honestly, I never was going to go past my original first post because I knew that not being on the Caitlyn Jenner band wagon was not going to make Me popular. She is every where right now and all the praise she is getting I do believe is a bit misguided.

let Me make a couple things clear....if possible

1. I am not an English major. Matter of fact, while I did very well in high school with the subject, I never went much further than that with it. That being said, I do realize that a lot of times the words that I chose, the sentences I form, and the thoughts I tried to convey did not come across on the written page as I intended. It also comes down to how people READ the words that are there and if they consider the whole context that they go with or if they pick and chose what they read. I, for the record, also never won any spelling bees either.

I never meant to imply that anyone here, or in the world, is not considered a woman just because they haven't had genital surgery. I understand there are different "levels" of being TG, as with Cding, and that not all TG people will need to go all the way. They were born with a female's soul, trapped in a male's body and I will never know that feeling. I will never know the pain you are suffering just to live a daily life, the emotions you feel or the injustice that you will need to over come and for that I apologize if you took the bits and pieces of my bad wording and it stabbed you like a knife, it was never my intent.

I also understand that a few can not fulfill their goals of becoming "complete" due to the finances of it, maybe the health issues that prevent it, or any other circumstance that may prevent you from reaching your goals, IF that is your goal, fully. This also brings me back to Caitlyn Jenner though which was the topic at hand. Clearly she has the money to finish the transition and she also has the health (which is completely an assumption on my part) so why hasn't she decided to finish the process to become the person she is claiming to be and has been her whole life? Do not take this wrong or read this wrong, my knowledge of TG is limited but isn't that the goal of someone that is transgender?

Katey888 said it best here:


I think Joanne has a point about the relationship with the Kardashian's and their relationship with the media. Celebrities (of all types) and the weird, unreal media world they exist in DO NOT behave or are always motivated by the same things that 'regular' folk are - the fact that so many have had cosmetic surgery similar to Ms Jenner's (and in some cases radically more and worse) should indicate that they respond to a different set of motivators to most of us... and just as it is impossible to predict who amongst us may transition, it is as equally impossible to say that Ms Jenner would not transition back... I would agree it seems unlikely on current evidence, but it's happened before and no one can predict these things...

This is what I was trying to convey with a later post but obviously my words were lost due to poor writing skills or poor reading skills. Their world is not the same as our world. Never has been, never will be. While CJ is center stage for the TG community, and the biggest to date to ever come along, what happens IF she does transition back? Where does that leave this community in the opinions of the general public? I will be honest, when I heard she had not fully transitioned, the first thought to enter my mind was that IF she did go back, if this was a publicity stunt, she could because she didn't fully transition and it would destroy any momentum that the TG community has gained from her being center stage.

Matter of fact, it would probably do more damage than anyone can begin to comprehend. If Time magazine comes out a year from now, two years from now, when ever, IF it ever does and the cover says: Caitlyn Jenner Fraud! Goes back to being Bruce! Where does that leave the TG community? At that point, it leaves it looking like we flip a switch and go back and forth when that statement isn't true but in the eyes of the general public?

Now going to #2....

I am not TG. I am a CD. While they say that I fit under the LGBT umbrella, I do not, I can not even comprehend how I could. There is no "C" in there (not that a letter defines the term). I am not gay, I am not a Lesbian, I am not Bisexual, and I am clearly not TG/TS. I cross dress. I put on women's clothes, I do women's makeup, I full body shave, I LOVE shopping, I take on women's mannerisms when I am dressed (because it's odd to ME to be dressed as such and act manly) and when ever that time ends, be it an hour, a day, when ever...I go back to being me. While this is a part of me, I do love it and have embraced it, it's not even half of who I am. While I enjoy the calmness that I get and like to explore the world as a woman lives daily, it does not make Me a woman.

I joined this forum solely because I thought it was about crossdressing after, all, The name implys it, even the sub title implys it, yet we are treated like third class citizens here. We fall Under the transgender folks on the forum and even the GG's on this forum. Where is our place in this community let alone under the LGBT umbrella? Maybe it's time for a name change because Crossdressing is surely not at the fore front of this community. I am not saying that it should be either, because lorileah can't wait to tear that snippet out and raise hell over it, but does it even, or do we, have a place here at this point?

I feel, and this is my opinion, that is the reason many of us fail to understand the whole Transgender thing, as it is not what we are here for, we can't possibly relate. We do not have the FULL knowledge to back anything posted about being TG and the reason why my post came across as cold hearted or coarse. I usually do not post to any thread TG related due to this fact, I have so very little knowledge of who you are, what you go through, or what your end goal is. All I do have knowledge about is being CD and even that is limited because the question "why?" can not ever be answered.

I only replied to this post because of this quote:


Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of.

I asked like what and with little TG knowledge stated that full surgery is what I thought the ultimate goal was for a transgender person. That was my mistake followed by continuing that mistake and I do apologize to everyone that it affected. That was never my intent nor my goal. I am human, this whole lifestyle, whether it be TG or CD is a huge learning experience, that is part of the reason that we are all here. To date though, My asking Like what? still hasn't been answered not that it needs an answer now. It's moot at this point.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Joanne,

There is so much in your last post I want to try to address. First, what makes you think Caitlyn's transformation is just some elaborate publicity stunt? If she was just searching for a little of her own limelight she could have just left stories about her identity up to the tabloid media and garnered plenty of attention that way. Instead she chose to use major media outlets like ABC News and Vanity Fair to explain her decision to start living as a woman. She then goes as far to have FFS and breast implants, changes that are not easy to reverse and are very expensive. To me these are the actions of a person who is commited to a path for her life because she believes it is right for her. I know you qualified your speculation with a big IF, but I think the usefulness of a hypothetical is proportional the likeliness of it being true. You asume because she has not had SRS yet she is somehow keeping her options open. Other than a delay in her process, what evidence do you have to support your claims.

To your claim that as a CD you dont fit under the LGBT umbrella, I have to disagree. The one thing that unites all of these individuals is that they behave in a way that is atypical for a person of their biological sex be it who they sleep with or how they choose to appear, and are discriminated against by many for trying to be themselves. You proudly assert "I put on women's clothes, I do women's makeup, I full body shave, I LOVE shopping, I take on women's mannerisms when I am dressed " These are not the behaviors of your typical man. Apparantly you missed the huge argument we had here over the last month regarding terminology, but there is a growing consensus, especially by the psychological community, that the term Transgender should be used to describe anyone who gender identity or form of gender expression does not match one's assigned sex. Now you may not wish to accept such a definition, but to a lot of folks you are TG just not TS.

In no way are CDs third-class citizens on this site because there are no classes around here. This forum exists to share ideas and to support one another in all of our various forms of gender expresion. Go to the Pictures and Video side and you'll see plenty of examples of CDs enjoying life as CDs and being supported in it by people from all points along the TG spectrum. Everyone here is allowed to expres their opinions. Just because they aren't universally accepted by everyone does not diminish the value of the person making them.

Now, as to your first post where you questioned Nikki's statement "Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of." I can see where you are coming from. A lot of that statement hinges on what constitutes "more" for the TS cause. CJ has certainly brought more awarenss to TG individuals, but has anything changed in terms of legal rights and protections in the past week or month? The truth is we won't really know the extent of Caitlyn's contribution for many months or years to come.

Now I apologize if I've come across harshly. There was just so much in your post I disagreed with, but as I said, this place exists to exchange opinions, and hopefully be challenged by them so we can grow as human beings. Best wishes.

Bridget

[PaulaQ]

To your claim that as a CD you dont fit under the LGBT umbrella, I have to disagree. The one thing that unites all of these individuals is that they behave in a way that is atypical for a person of their biological sex be it who they sleep with or how they choose to appear, and are discriminated against by many for trying to be themselves. You proudly assert "I put on women's clothes, I do women's makeup, I full body shave, I LOVE shopping, I take on women's mannerisms when I am dressed " These are not the behaviors of your typical man.

Bridget is right on the money.

I know many of you on here think "I am a manly man. I mow the lawn. I work on the car. I watch NASCAR and Football." Unfortunately, should your little secret be known, you are not going to be viewed exactly the same as other men by most of the population, I am very sorry to tell you.

In fact, in some ways, your situation is worse than mine in terms of public understanding. I am a woman. I look like a woman. I sound like a woman. I smell like a woman. I feel like one. People get that. I show them old pictures and they say "uh, ok, if you say that's you, then uh, sure. Looks like some random dude to me."

Do you think your story is easier to understand than mine? Let me assure you, it is not.

And one last point, and really the thing that binds us together, even if we have nothing else in common. If the wrong dudes catch you out in the open in your dress, they will murder you just as brutally as they would murder a trans woman. And folks, a lot of us get murdered every year.

So I'd suggest you think really hard about who your friends are, sisters. Because if it weren't for the work some of us are doing on your behalf, you could be murdered and no one would care. If not for us, who would stand up for you? Most of you are completely unwilling to stand up for yourselves. Trust me on this - this is a cruel old world. And it is always on the lookout for more scapegoats. And you don't want that particular distinction to fall upon you. Oh no you do not.

Because trust me, your cries of "I'm really a man!!!!" will not help you when someone is beating you.

[flatlander_48]

Because trust me, your cries of "I'm really a man!!!!" will not help you when someone is beating you.

Yes, that's the thing. Anyone that would visit violence on another human does not have sufficient intelligence and the ability to reason and discern at that point in time. They are NOT going to say "Oh, those crossdressers are OK, it those damned transsexuals that I HATE!!!". No, there is ONE brush and ONE color...

We live together or we die together. It doesn't come any more simple than that.

DeeAnn

[heatherdress]

Bruce Jenner's transition to Caitlyn is threatening to a lot of men for many reasons. As mentioned, he was the role model Olympic champion, a husband, father, a man's man. And then he admits that he accomplished family, fame and fortune being a woman inside. He became un-manly. He cried. He admitted his feelings. He became beautiful. He became Caitlyn.

The thought that this really happened to Bruce Jenner threatens many men. I am not supporting their sentiments which are based, perhaps in ignorance, prejudice or fear. But I understand why they might react negatively. And what if they had to deal with their own innermost feelings?

[AllieSF]

Heather, I hear that all the time from people here, but not outside of this site. Do situations like Caitlyn Jenner really threaten the masculinity of a large number of males? Are there any studies about those stereotypical ape heads who would react caveman like to a lot of silly and truly non-threatening things. Is it something that should even be considered when analyzing situations like Jenner's? I think most men just say, "Oh, that is not me nor anyone that I know so why should I worry about it?", i.e. they hear or see it, register it and then go back to their own lives with their own issues. They may not understand and they may not even want to understand because it is outside of their own daily lives. I think that we make a bigger deal of it than it really is.

There are ignorant and almost un-teachable people all over the place, but I would guess that only a few of them would react like that. Yes, it only takes a few, like a rotten apples, to spoil the true picture for others. Most of our worry is in our minds and not in reality. Just like the fear of so many here who do not go out because they fear what might happen when reading all of the going out threads here that say exactly the opposite.

[Lorileah]

Firstly, I didn't put us in a category compared to criminals. In fact, I didn't compare us to criminals at all. Do not put words into my mouth. Hmmm let me quote your post


I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do. We're a mere snigger (either behind our backs or to our faces) in the street to most people in comparison.

that isn't comparing? You used examples of things that are above "us" that are criminal.

To answer an earlier question you have.....about Caitlyn visiting the TS boards...You do understand anonymity right? For all I know you are a famous politician or star or football player. You don't know that she is or isn't right now reading this wondering how the people in the UK dislike her for marrying a woman and adopting her daughters. For all I know your Kate Middleton is the admin here. She rules royally. :heehee:

You cite a small number of Brits I'm sure.

And yes Joanne, I read the whole post. See above. When people say "Well you're better than being a murderer" that's comparing. I read your posts too...and I still don't get how you can be so uninformed about the transsexual community.

[TrishaTX]

Comparing any form of crossdressing to the being a pepohile or molester is crazy. I know the point you were trying to make but it is a poor one like using the word rape around women. I have been molested and it is the worst thing that can happen to child...they simply are not ready for it. That said , what we do is defiantly shunned by most men in society but not any way to the degree of that of a molester. One is criminal the other is not to start.

[ReluctantDebutant]

Jenni_xx, how dare you point out that transgender are not considered lower than pedophiles and rapists by society. Didn't you know it is less transphobic to point out that transgender are at the bottom of the societal hierarchy i.e. below criminals than to say we are above them?:) :brolleyes:

let me see if I can follow this; PaulaQ says TGs are at the bottom of society's hierarchy, Jenni_xx says no we are at least above pedophiles and rapists in the eyes of society, and now Jenni_xx is receiving ire for elevating trans above criminals?

Seriously does anyone read arguments or do they just go into some knee-jerk defcom4 when they read pedophiles and rapists in a topic about transgenderism?

[TrishaTX]

I think I read it very closely and don't think the comparison is very good...just an opinion ...

[jenni_xx]

You used examples of things that are above "us" that are criminal.

Paula expressed an opinion that transgendered people are at the bottom of the societal hierarchy. I disagreed.

Do you agree with Paula (we are the bottom of society) or do you agree with me (we aren't)? I'd be far more interested to hear your opinion on that as opposed to getting into an unnecessary and quite frankly pathetic tit-for-tat discussion surrounding semantics.


To answer an earlier question you have.....about Caitlyn visiting the TS boards...You do understand anonymity right? For all I know you are a famous politician or star or football player. You don't know that she is or isn't right now reading this

Yes, hence why I posted my thoughts as to whether she has been here or not. Just to be clear, I wasn't for one moment expecting someone to reply saying "yes she has" or "no she hasn't".


You cite a small number of Brits I'm sure.

You're right to be sure. The approximate number, based on the number of message board posts, is several hundred.


I think I read it very closely and don't think the comparison is very good...just an opinion ...

I'll ask the same question that I asked Lorileah above. Do you agree with Paula that we are the bottom or the societal hierarchy, or do you agree with me that we aren't?


Jenni_xx, how dare you point out that transgender are not considered lower than pedophiles and rapists by society. Didn't you know it is less transphobic to point out that transgender are at the bottom of the societal hierarchy i.e. below criminals than to say we are above them?:) :brolleyes:

let me see if I can follow this; PaulaQ says TGs are at the bottom of society's hierarchy, Jenni_xx says no we are at least above pedophiles and rapists in the eyes of society, and now Jenni_xx is receiving ire for elevating trans above criminals?

Seriously does anyone read arguments or do they just go into some knee-jerk defcom4 when they read pedophiles and rapists in a topic about transgenderism?

Thank you!!!

[TrishaTX]

Do you agree with Paula (we are the bottom of society) or do you agree with me (we aren't)? I'd be far more interested to hear your opinion on that as opposed to getting into an unnecessary and quite frankly pathetic tit-for-tat discussion surrounding semantics.

There is nothing worst then a pedophile period so obviously no...crossdressing is something for you, pedophile is something that violates someone else...again not sure why the comparison even exists.

[jenni_xx]

I'm using them as two examples of groups of people who are regarded as being lower in society than transgendered people are in order to illustrate why I disagree with Paula's comment.

[flatlander_48]

That's like saying would you prefer to get blown away by a tornado or a hurricane? It doesn't make much difference. Devastation is devastation...

[ReineD]

Seriously does anyone read arguments or do they just go into some knee-jerk defcom4 when they read ...

I think a lot of people don't read. They scan. And they don't consider, they react.

[Lorileah]

has to read posts, is my job

[PaulaQ]

Do you agree with Paula (we are the bottom of society) or do you agree with me (we aren't)? I'd be far more interested to hear your opinion on that as opposed to getting into an unnecessary and quite frankly pathetic tit-for-tat discussion surrounding semantics.

There is nothing worst then a pedophile period so obviously no...crossdressing is something for you, pedophile is something that violates someone else...again not sure why the comparison even exists.

I am not suggesting that transgender people are worse than pedophiles. The lawmakers in Texas absolutely make this comparison about us. Did you in any way respond to the various bills in this state that would've criminalized us? I did - I wrote my representatives, and lobbied in Austin. Their rationale for trying to put us in jail for using public restrooms was that we (trans women) are rapists and pedophiles, men out to attack their daughters and wives in public restrooms.

There are NO laws against convicted pedophiles or other sex offenders using public restrooms. Even if such laws existed, sex offenders are invisible - you can't tell who is a convicted sex offender just by looking at them.

But you sure can spot some of us. We are highly visible.

I don't actually care who is the very lowest rung of the social ladder. A lot of us have similar problems to convicted felons in our lives once we start transition:
- unable to rent housing in many cases
- unable to gain employment
- sometimes unable to vote

The type of discrimination many of us face is comparable to what ex-cons go through - only here's the kicker - we didn't do anything to hurt anyone else.

I find it pretty offensive that a couple of part time CDs are lecturing me about how easy it is to be transgender. Apparently our situation is not so bad that we can just pointlessly argue about who has it worse, and be told by someone who doesn't face this type of discrimination that things aren't so bad. Because that's what you are saying, right?

Here's some fun true stories about life as trans:
My roommate, who is also transgender, is my roommate because a gang of transphobic men attacked her, multiple times at her apartment complex in Plano Texas. The police told her "you aren't safe here."

My friend in Tulsa who was savagely raped, her jaw broken. The guys who did it probably only planned on a regular old gang rape - things turned extra savage once they got her jeans off and saw she was trans. She still suffers from PTSD.

I spent three horrible hours last year with a dude who pretty obviously intended to rape me. He certainly talked about doing it enough. Somehow, I got out of this. He was looking for a trans woman when he found me. He knew exactly where to look too.

One of the women who attends my group became suicidal after she lost her job because she's trans.

I can keep citing examples like this for a good long time. I have a hard time finding a doctor for many things, because as soon as I say the word "transgender", I'm told " oh, sorry, we don't do that."

So if you feel you have somehow shown me that I don't have it so bad because I'm not a convicted sex offender, I have to tell you that watching a convicted felon I know struggle, and watching some of the trans people I know struggle, there isn't a hell of a lot of difference in some of the difficulties they face in life. Again, the difference between the ex-con I know, and the trans people I know, us that most of us didn't break a single law, yet we often struggle like someone who did.

Txcrossdress, when I talk to people about being trans, they no longer view me as being fully human:
1. They start using male pronouns - even when they used female pronouns before I disclosed to them.
2. They ask the most intrusive and inappropriate questions about my body.
3. They ask really inappropriate questions about my relationship - in essence they wanna know which one of us ****s the other
4. I lost all but one of my past friends.
I can go on with this list too!

I've been at this coming on two years now. I pass quite well. I'm one of the lucky ones. I know many, many trans women who don't pass, and who probably never will. Their lives are enormously difficult.

So please try and have some compassion. Transition is really hard. If you aren't fulltime, I doubt you've experienced some of the worst problems we face.

What possible point can you even have in arguing this stuff?

[lynda]

hi girls, I think steve tyler has done more good for crossdressers then Caitlyn, the guy mixes bracets , womens cloths sashays and the still is admired by both women and streath men , as a guitar player and crossdresser , him and jimi and david bowie were my brake thru to who I am and many other males from my generation and showed us it was all right to mix it up. hugs lynda

[jenni_xx]

Paula, I think conclusions are being drawn here that are going way off the point in regards to what is actually being said. Personally, I am not trying to say that "you don't have it so bad because you're not a convicted sex offender". I'm not trying to belittle anything that you've experienced. That wasn't my intention at all. I'm not trying to say that we're viewed in a generally positive and accepting light by society. My reason for joining this thread in the first place was to comment on how people here in the UK are reacting negatively to Caitlyn Jenner, and try an explain that because of how such people react more generally to the Kardashian media-obsession, Caitlyn's situation isn't being viewed by many as a serious situation in its own right, but rather being belittled to "just another example of the KUWTK circus show".

I did and do disagree with your comment that we (as a group as a whole) are "at the bottom of the societal hierarchy". I don't think that we (as a group as a whole) are. That doesn't mean that I think that (to quote yourself) "our situation is not so bad". Or that the problems we do face as a group are not important. Or that we don't face discrimination.

In response you seem to have been offended that I think society views this group or that group in a much more negative light than they do our group. More so, you seem to be offended that it is a part-time CD who has said this to you. You are pulling rank in the transgendered community by saying your problems and experiences are worse than mine. I don't see that as you belittling the problems that I do face however. On the contrary, I agree with you - your problems and experiences are and have been worse than mine.

Yet, when I disagreed with your comment that we as a group are seen as the "bottom of society", your response seems to indicate that you feel I am belittling the problems that you do and have faced. Just to be clear, I'm not. That was never my intention.

[PaulaQ]

More so, you seem to be offended that it is a part-time CD who has said this to you. You are pulling rank in the transgendered community by saying your problems and experiences are worse than mine.

No, I'm not.

My entire point has been that we share many common problems, and that someone who discriminates against us doesn't care about whether we are CD or TS.

What bothered me is that I get the impression that you and some other CDs don't really understand the privilege you have in being able to pass for cisgender - i.e. go out in drab.

Please don't misunderstand me. I have great sympathy for the misery many CDs express while leading a double life. That is not a privilege. A life lived in the closet, hiding from loved ones and friends is terrible. I know - I did it for 50 years.

However, I presume you can pick and choose your battles, avoiding situations such as:
- Your job
- Courtroom appearances
- Routine traffic stops (unless you are out en femme a lot)
- Many other public settings other than carefully chosen outings
- explaining to family why you wear a dress

The ability to avoid these situations by appearing cis means you don't really have to experience what those of us who transition have experienced. Your ability to be dismissive of our problems because you don't experience them yourself is the essence of privilege.

Now perhaps I've misjudged you or txcrossdress. Perhaps you are like Isha, and out everywhere a lot. I doubt this, because Isha experiences some of the same issues I'm discussing, transphobic prejudice, and reports them. I've not seen similar things from either of you, but if I have misunderstood or mischaracterized your situation, then I sincerely apologize.

I'll also allow that where you live may be a LOT different than where I live. Texas is a hell-hole for trans people.

But I very definitely object to the dismissive seeming comments. I lost every close friend I had when I came out as trans. Friends I'd had for thirty years. I'm lucky, because I kept my job (so far) and my immediate family. I lost my marriage of 18 years. I told you other really horrible stories that either happened to me, or that I got firsthand from a friend to whom they happened.

And yet y'all really want to quibble over whether those of us who transition are viewed better or worse than sex offenders? Who cares? (And again, I'd point out that a lot of the dialog about trans women in the U.S. directly comparesus to sex offenders. That is what we are in the opinion of a great many people in America.) My point is that what I see in our community (I lead one of the largest trans outreach groups in my state) are often dire cases of discrimination and socially ostracized trans people. We are not treated kindly, in general.

One of the biggest problems I see in the community I deal with are people who have NO ONE in their lives. No friends. No family. No friendly coworkers. No one. I certainly hope your life isn't like that, but if it isn't, I think you'd have to allow that you probably don't really know what living that way, month in, month out, would be like.

I have no idea what social pressures are faced by pedophiles or sex offenders. My point is that what many of us experience is terrible, and unlike them, we've committed no crime! I think this is a significant point. We are ostracized, but we aren't hurting anyone!

I'm very sorry you thought I was pulling rank. There is no rank. I have direct experiences I suspect you don't have both personally, and because of the organization I lead. I felt offended because you seemed to be offering opinions on matters that you have the opportunity to avoid. There has been a lot of that going on here in the CD forum lately.

If I have misjudged or mischaracterized your situation, please set me straight and I'll apologize.

I hope that I've given you my perspective on why I don't think public opinion of trans people in my country could be much worse than it is. I've seen direct improvements here because of Jenner's story.

[jenni_xx]

My entire point has been that we share many common problems, and that someone who discriminates against us doesn't care about whether we are CD or TS.

I completely agree.


What bothered me is that I get the impression that you and some other CDs don't really understand the privilege you have in being able to pass for cisgender - i.e. go out in drab.

I am not privileged because I am able to present myself, and be happy with myself, while dressed in attire that society deems appropriate for my birth gender. I presume men don't feel privileged whenever they wear a pair of jeans and a t-shirt, nor do I presume that women feel privileged when they wear a dress. Such a thought process most probably doesn't even enter their consciousness. Is it a privilege to wear a certain item of clothing, or to present oneself in a certain way? I would say that a better way of phrasing your point here would be to not to talk about "understanding a privilege", but rather to talk about NOT understanding the difficulty that people such as yourself face in just wanting to be accepted for who you actually are. privilege is the wrong word in my opinion. I can relate to that, but only to a small degree - a degree that is more understanding and empathetic than non-transgendered people, but is nonetheless a degree that is a lot smaller than what you have had to go through.


Please don't misunderstand me. I have great sympathy for the misery many CDs express while leading a double life. That is not a privilege. A life lived in the closet, hiding from loved ones and friends is terrible. I know - I did it for 50 years.

Before I come out as gay, I had girlfriends. I told all of them. Some were accepting. Others it become a primary factor in the relationship ending. After coming out as gay, I met a man who I entered into a civil partnership. I told him the first time I met him that I am CD. He accepted it. The relationship ended last year when our civil partnership was dissolved. He walked out on me, and to this day I don't know why. I am now dating a man who I told, but who doesn't accept it. My reaction to that has been to accept that he doesn't accept it. That is something for me to deal with. When I come out as gay, I lost friends, and lost the respect of several family members. Yet I found it easier to come out to these people than I ever did to come out as a crossdresser. To the point that everyone knows that I'm gay, but not everyone knows I crossdress. That is just my personal experience, but it is one that I feel enables me to emphasise with people who struggle for acceptance from others. That is, I believe, something that is common to us all, irrespective of where we fall on the "transgender spectrum". My point, in simply terms, while I haven't experienced what you have, I can and do understand and emphasise with you. That is why I would never be dismissive or belittle anything that you have gone through. When I'm met with replies on this forum that criticise me, in my opinion, unfairly, it hurts. The replies I've had to my comments on this thread have upset me. And frustrated me, because I feel that people have misconstrued my intent on this thread.


However, I presume you can pick and choose your battles, avoiding situations such as:
- Your job
- Courtroom appearances
- Routine traffic stops (unless you are out en femme a lot)
- Many other public settings other than carefully chosen outings
- explaining to family why you wear a dress

Externally, yes I can pick and choose. But internally I am not ever able to pick and choose my battles. I live my battles every single day. As have you. You've taken a very brave and positive step towards being the person who you actually are, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for you for that. My battles are my own, and I deal with them the best I can. My point is, empathy can only ever go so far. What is more important to me is that I am happy. Just as what is more important to you than my happiness is your own happiness.


The ability to avoid these situations by appearing cis means you don't really have to experience what those of us who transition have experienced. Your ability to be dismissive of our problems because you don't experience them yourself is the essence of privilege.

Only externally. Internally, I am able to avoid no situations. Just because I am wearing a suit one day, doesn't mean that on that day I am not transgendered. I am, and have been transgendered every single day of my life. Of course, people react to me as though I'm not transgendered when I wear a suit, and thus on such occasions I don't challenge their own perceptions of what are regarded to be societal norms, but internally the battle still rages on for me. Irrespective of what I wear. There is no such thing as a part-time CD. A person is either a CD or not.


Now perhaps I've misjudged you or txcrossdress. Perhaps you are like Isha, and out everywhere a lot. I doubt this, because Isha experiences some of the same issues I'm discussing, transphobic prejudice, and reports them. I've not seen similar things from either of you, but if I have misunderstood or mischaracterized your situation, then I sincerely apologize.

I'm not like Isha. Isha is a person who I have the utmost respect for, and Isha has gone to lengths with her crossdressing that I know I will never attain at any point in my life. I simply do not have the courage to do what Isha has done. I wish I did have that courage. That I do not will be something that I regret to my dying day.


I'll also allow that where you live may be a LOT different than where I live. Texas is a hell-hole for trans people.

I can't say for certain that it is different, because I haven't experienced both where I live and where you live. My first post in this thread was simply to state how people where I live have reacted to Caitlyn, and it's because of this reaction (from people where I live) that has made me feel that Caitlyn's exposure isn't having the positive reaction that I hoped it would have. It may be different in other parts of the world, but I can't, nor ever will, speak for these other parts of the world. Simpy because I can not do so.


But I very definitely object to the dismissive seeming comments. I lost every close friend I had when I came out as trans. Friends I'd had for thirty years. I'm lucky, because I kept my job (so far) and my immediate family. I lost my marriage of 18 years. I told you other really horrible stories that either happened to me, or that I got firsthand from a friend to whom they happened.

You said it yourself - the dismissive SEEMING comments. They are not dismissive, even if they seem that way to you.


And yet y'all really want to quibble over whether those of us who transition are viewed better or worse than sex offenders? Who cares? My point is that what I see in our community (I lead one of the largest trans outreach groups in my state) are often dire cases of discrimination and socially ostracized trans people. We are not treated kindly, in general.

I didn't want to quibble about that. I just disagreed with your comments. The quibbles after that resulted from people taking objection to my disagreement of your comment. Lorileah set the ball rolling in that respect, with her own abrupt, flippant and unnecessary comment that I had put us "in a category compared to criminals". I hadn't. I had actually distinguished us from such a category.


One of the biggest problems I see in the community I deal with are people who have NO ONE in their lives. No friends. No family. No friendly coworkers. No one. I certainly hope your life isn't like that, but if it isn't, I think you'd have to allow that you probably don't really know what living that way, month in, month out, would be like.

I do have people in my life, so I can't relate to those people who don't. So no, I don't know what living that way is like. Nor would I want to. I am thankful for that.


I have no idea what social pressures are faced by pedophiles or sex offenders. My point is that what many of us experience is terrible, and unlike them, we've committed no crime! I think this is a significant point. We are ostracized, but we aren't hurting anyone!

I agree, we haven't committed a crime. You're right, it is a significant point. We are ostracised. And for no good reason.


I'm very sorry you thought I was pulling rank. There is no rank. I have direct experiences I suspect you don't have both personally, and because of the organization I lead. I felt offended because you seemed to be offering opinions on matters that you have the opportunity to avoid. There has been a lot of that going on here in the CD forum lately.

You did pull rank. You said that you were offended that a part-time CD would "lecture you" about how easy it is to be transgender, when no one, certainly not me, never ever intended to state that we have it easy. Nonetheless, your post that I've replied to extensively here and your previous post had an underlying message that I, a part time CD, do not have it as bad as you, and that I, as a part time CD can not possibly have experienced the extents that you have experienced. In my last post, I agreed with this. I would be foolish and misguided not to. This all come about because I had the audacity to name some groups who society regards as lower than us. Your response in light of that was to cement your view. No one on this thread has questioned you for this. Plenty of people have questioned my comment however, despite them, when push comes to shove, actually agreeing with me.


If I have misjudged or mischaracterized your situation, please set me straight and I'll apologize.

See my comment earlier in my post about the conflict that we all face in terms of our external presentation and internal thought process.


I hope that I've given you my perspective on why I don't think public opinion of trans people in my country could be much worse than it is.

You have. And I appreciate it.


I've seen direct improvements here because of Jenner's story.

I, personally, have yet to see any.

[Katey888]

I think we've had enough semantics ping-pong to satisfy a Chinese politburo after-hours entertainment show... :)

A lot of this all sounds like violent agreement if we step back a little and take deep, calming breaths...

:meditate:

Now isn't that better..?

Back to the OP please, and in a friendly way, or this thread will be done...

:yt:

Katey
Moderator

[JayeLefaye]

What Katey said:-)

I had to take a deep breath before even opening this thread. After seeing what Katey said, I decided to simply keep on with my deep breaths and not even read what has gone on here.

And yeap, I do feel better with my breathing.

I didn't mean to reactivate this thread, and I haven't read anything except Katey's post, but I suspect that there is a lot of good information involved and look forward to catching up on the "useful" parts.

The bottom line for me, is that we finally have a "celebrity" who has opened a lot of doors for discussion, and for that, we should all be thankful. Personally, I wish the "celebrity" had been Vladimir Putin or George Clooney, but hey, we have what we have, and this is a very good time to focus on the "positive", in a "lemons to lemonade" kind of way.

Jaye

P.S...I'm thinking about changing my signature line to:

Just because I dress like a girl, doesn't give me permission to act like a b..tch:-)

[JessicaJHall]

Well one thing is for sure, this certainly has our forum all abuzz!

[TrishaTX]

I had no intention to offend especially Paula but the pedofile thing got me...hit home they say! I do take a stand n things and not on others....that said good conversation overall.

[MonctonGirl]

I wonder if I'm outing myself on my 'male' FB page....

My wife didn't want me to continue further with the discussion. :)


"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
Hamlet - William Shakespeare



Additionally, I pointed out that at least Jenner's children are supportive, apparently, since they have yet to voice any displeasure at Caitlyn's transition.


That may be a stretch. Declining commentary about the matter is not the same thing as being supportive.
Rather, it would be a fatal PR move to speak out against it - and of course, they can't do anything to stop it anyway - so, why?
It is for sure they have had a difficult time "dealing with it". (Not the same as "accepting" it - which would indicate true acceptance.
Their silence may more be a matter of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".

[Greenie]

To your claim that as a CD you dont fit under the LGBT umbrella, I have to disagree. The one thing that unites all of these individuals is that they behave in a way that is atypical for a person of their biological sex be it who they sleep with or how they choose to appear, and are discriminated against by many for trying to be themselves. You proudly assert "I put on women's clothes, I do women's makeup, I full body shave, I LOVE shopping, I take on women's mannerisms when I am dressed " These are not the behaviors of your typical man. Apparantly you missed the huge argument we had here over the last month regarding terminology, but there is a growing consensus, especially by the psychological community, that the term Transgender should be used to describe anyone who gender identity or form of gender expression does not match one's assigned sex. Now you may not wish to accept such a definition, but to a lot of folks you are TG just not TS.


I haven't posted in a while, But I have been reading this thread, and this got me.

ITS A BASIC HUMAN RIGHT, that each person has in this world is to IDENTIFY THEMSELVES.

You cannot push your labels onto Joanne. If joanne wants to identify in a way that doesn't make sense to you, you have no right to disagree. Its Joanne's right to Identify as Joanne sees fit. Putting another person into a box, only does so for your own comfort.

I never thought I would see the day someone who identifies as LGBT umbrella would use "the growing consensus and psychological community", to force a label onto someone who doesn't want it. That is absurd.

[flatlander_48]

No, what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

Right now, there is a lot of B/S swirling about Bathroom Bills. As a group, we need to kill this stuff right now. And before those among us would say that it doesn't effect me, this hysteria that is going around is what led to this situation in Detroit.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/06/11/woman-mistaken-for-man-files-lawsuit-after-being-pursued-in-restroom/

The thing is, how would we feel if this person was a wife, sister, mother or daughter to one of us? This crap has got to STOP; NOW.

And yes, I have every right to disagree and point out things that serve No One.

[JoanAz]

KRISTIN BECK
Long listen but well worth it
Navy Seal transgender person
warrior princess navy seal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-PT2cZr4aA

[ReineD]

No, what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

I think it makes a difference to the health care community and health insurance. There needs to be a distinction between individuals who want surgery for cosmetic reasons (i.e. they want boobs with no other surgery and they do not experience significant distress and impairment over presenting male), vs. those who need the surgery because without it, they would experience significant distress and impairment over being, presenting, and living male ... which is the DSM definition of Gender Dysphoria. So should these two groups of people be identified the same way for the purpose of health insurance?

Also, spouses and partners need to know if their other half identifies as a man, woman, sometimes one and sometimes another, both, or neither. I agree that to the general populace, anyone who is not cis fits under the transgender umbrella (see my note below), but you do need more precise definitions when communicating to healthcare professionals, spouses/partners, and even among ourselves if you want others to gain an appreciation of who you are, exactly.

-----------------------------

Note about being classified under the "Transgender" Umbrella:

When my SO dresses and goes out, people don't stop to ask if my SO is a CDer, TG, TS, Drag Queen, Androgynous, or whether my SO has had her penis removed, or whether my SO lives like this all the time. lol. It is likely they classify my SO a number of different ways based on their personal knowledge, which likely is limited to what they read in the news. Since the media insists of calling transitioning TSs "Transgender" and transitioning TSs are more in the news than CDers, it is likely the people we run across believe my SO to have transitioned, like Jenner, which means they likely see her as they see Jenner: someone who used to be a male and who now lives as a female, vs. someone who was born female. Also, my SO is not about to hang a sign around her necks proclaiming to strangers that she is attracted to women and lives as a male most of the time, and so really, anyone who is in my SO's shoes just needs to allow strangers to come to the conclusions they will come to which is, the person they are looking at is "transgender", whatever their definition of that term is.

That said, if a CDer who identifies as a straight male is out to friends and family, he is perfectly free to tell these people he is not TG like Jenner, he does not plan on living full time and he is not asexual like Jenner (I heard her say this in a video), nor is he male-attracted, etc. Anyone can control the message they give about their identity to the people they know. It may take 10 words instead of one, but it's doable.

Likewise, a person who identifies as gender-fluid and who does not intend on fully transitioning is perfectly free to communicate this to family and friends, and to correct their impression of what "Transgender" means if these family and friends take it that it means eventual legal and physical transition and living full time.

[JayeLefaye]

...what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

This!!!!

I am a simple dudette, but years ago, someone explained to me about fulcum points, and this, right now, with Caitlyn, methinks is one of them.

Copy and pasting here:

The definition of a fulcrum is a pivot point around which a lever turns, or something that plays a central role in or is in the center of a situation or activity. A pivot point around which a lever turns is an example of a fulcrum.

There have been untold many others who paid higher prices than Caitlyn, but that's not her fault!!! But she has now brought everything into more mainstream conversations than anything else that I've been aware of in my Journey.

I avoided this thread on purpose, and so, came in to it la te. But will try to leave it now, by quoting 48 again, and trusting that her words of wisdom will touch more than my heart.: At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

There are a ton of other concerns that we should all be working toward, but we can't begin to work towards them unless we stop nit-picking among ourselves over definitions.

I know that they are important, but the old cartoon Pogo keeps coming to mind: "We've met the enemy, and he is us"...Or something like that.

Jaye

[ReineD]

The definition of a fulcrum is a pivot point around which a lever turns, or something that plays a central role in or is in the center of a situation or activity.

I just want to say that as a member of this community, it is understandable that you hope Caitlyn Jenner's will have a fundamental role in helping the cis-world to gain an understanding of transitioners or even people who are not transitioning but who are gender-fluid. I'm guessing there is a great deal more discussion and speculation about Caitlyn in forums such as this one, than there is in non-trans related forums.

But, I think that to most people Caitlyn is far away, meaning they are aware there is a famous person who is transitioning, but I don't think they will be able to translate this to a deeper understanding, for example should their husbands, sons, or perhaps employees should follow Jenner's path.

[flatlander_48]

I think it makes a difference to the health care community and health insurance. There needs to be a distinction between individuals who want surgery for cosmetic reasons (i.e. they want boobs with no other surgery and they do not experience significant distress and impairment over presenting male), vs. those who need the surgery because without it, they would experience significant distress and impairment over being, presenting, and living male ... which is the DSM definition of Gender Dysphoria. So should these two groups of people be identified the same way for the purpose of health insurance?

Also, spouses and partners need to know if their other half identifies as a man, woman, sometimes one and sometimes another, both, or neither. I agree that to the general populace, anyone who is not cis fits under the transgender umbrella (see my note below), but you do need more precise definitions when communicating to healthcare professionals, spouses/partners, and even among ourselves if you want others to gain an appreciation of who you are, exactly.

The point is that NONE of this has anything to do with discussions HERE. What you're talking about is between a person and the medical professionals they are dealing with or between a person and their family. But, those discussions are not taking place HERE and they don't take place in public.


Since the media insists of calling transitioning TSs "Transgender" and transitioning TSs are more in the news than CDers, it is likely the people we run across believe my SO to have transitioned, like Jenner, which means they likely see her as they see Jenner: someone who used to be a male and who now lives as a female, vs. someone who was born female.

Yes, and my point it this largely exists because we lost the high ground. Instead of a straightforward and clear message, we have fractious and overly complicated B/S. We keep making this hard for ourselves for no good reason. And the problem is that once it is in the public domain, it is very hard to contradict.

DeeAnn

[ReluctantDebutant]

No, what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.

Well what is also absurd is the assertion that those who not feel that the label of transgender describes them are now unable to feel or show compassion for those that do feel comfortable under the TG label.

I am a man. I can still feel outrage towards injustices against women. I am straight. I can still believe that homosexuals should be treated equitably. I am of one race. I can still desire liberty for all races minority or majority. Just because some one doesn't want to identify with any TG label doesn't mean that they cannot care for the various TG causes. Besides if you just rely on those that identify as TG you would never have any politically significant numbers.


Yes, and my point it this largely exists because we lost the high ground. Instead of a straightforward and clear message, we have fractious and overly complicated B/S. We keep making this hard for ourselves for no good reason. And the problem is that once it is in the public domain, it is very hard to contradict.

Telling people that transgender are everyone from Caitlyn Jenner to you average underdresser isn't going to clear up the confusion. Separating and clearly defining the differences between a TS, CD and the various groups will do more to clarify the public misunderstandings. But If we separate ourselves we lose that one clear voice. And if they only here one TG voice they think all TG are the same. I am sure a TS doesn't want me speaking as a TG to legislators that I don't need to use the a woman's restroom. I rather speak as just a human citizen and say denying a TS the use of the correct facility is unjust.

[sometimes_miss]

Bruce Jenner's transition to Caitlyn is threatening to a lot of men for many reasons.
No, I think it all comes down to the same reason our wives and girlfriends are so upset with us when they find out.
THEY FEEL THAT HE DECEIVED THEM, THAT THEY WERE FOOLED.
And nobody wants to be a fool. It makes them angry. And they turn that anger around towards the person that they feel betrayed them. They you add to the fact of why they are upset that he 'turned out to actually be a woman', and you have fury.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

You cannot push your labels onto Joanne. If joanne wants to identify in a way that doesn't make sense to you, you have no right to disagree. Its Joanne's right to Identify as Joanne sees fit. Putting another person into a box, only does so for your own comfort.

I never thought I would see the day someone who identifies as LGBT umbrella would use "the growing consensus and psychological community", to force a label onto someone who doesn't want it. That is absurd.

I was not pushing my label on Joanne. I was trying to point out that there is a good reason for her to see herself as falling under the T portion of LGBT.I specifically said she could not accept that definition. That is not pushing.This forum exists to exchange ideas, so it is my right to disagree with someone just as you are exercising your right to disagree with me.

As far as my reference to the psychological community, I think that is an important consideration because it is that community that influences lawmakes and judges. It was the erronius conclusions of psychologists in the past that led to the forced incarceration or hospitalization of anyone who identifed as LGBT. Now that psychology is getting it right we have been able to get the rights and privileges we now enjoy or can soon hope to enjoy.

[Greenie]

No, what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.


Someones Gender and their expression of it, is for themselves. So its up to them what they decide to identify as. I don't think most people struggling with gender take the time to think about how they fit into the political machine. Not everyone goes into this with the idea of becoming an activist. Sometimes its just for survival. There are factions to separate people, because people create those factions for themselves. Not everyone is the same. Not everyone fits neatly into a mold, and not everyone who isn't cis-gender feels comfortable with the idea of being under the transgender umbrella. Some people just need to find something to make themselves feel safe. Thats why there are so many definitions. Whether someone is by definition a "tg" or not in a psychological context, I still purely believe that is for no one else to decide but the person themselves. Everyone else's opinions don't matter. Its each persons own right to decide to call themselves what they feel comfortable.

You all are putting others in boxes. Which is so sad to see. We should all be in the position here to love one another and the differences we all bring. How can a group of ostracized individuals feel comfortable taking people and trying to talk them into boxes they don't feel comfortable in. I will re affirm that I believe this is very absurd. Which is one of the reasons I haven't been around as much. I would hope to experience a board that is a lot more open. But instead this place feels like a place where people talk about cross dressing in regards to whether or people are "trans enough".

[PaulaQ]

Someones Gender and their expression of it, is for themselves. So its up to them what they decide to identify as. I don't think most people struggling with gender take the time to think about how they fit into the political machine. Not everyone goes into this with the idea of becoming an activist. Sometimes its just for survival.

I don't believe anyone here is constraining anyone's self definition of their gender or expression. The term "transgender" is extremely broad, covering everything from stone butches, to crossdressers, to gender queer, to trans persons.

In the end, I'd hope people could see the benefits of grouping with people who have some common problems, even if not all of the problems, nor anything else about them is precisely the same. That has been my argument and my point the entire time.

I didn't transition to become an activist. I became an activist because a gang of men attacked my friend, and the police could do nothing to protect her. Sometimes the fight comes to us, and since that is happening now, it just makes sense to me to band with others. I try to look beyond my own narrow interests, and include those who seem to have similar interests.

I'm not trying to force anyone to do this - I have no power to do that. But my hope is that people will help according to their talents and opportunities.

[ReineD]

The point is that NONE of this has anything to do with discussions HERE. What you're talking about is between a person and the medical professionals they are dealing with or between a person and their family. But, those discussions are not taking place HERE and they don't take place in public.

Well, it's between community members and the medical profession AND the people that members are married to and the others they have come out to, AND their friends in this forum. A wide variety of people simply cannot all use the same word to identify themselves, when each person attaches a different meaning to it. It's just all too confusing for the masses who hear the term. Granted, to the public everyone who crosses culturally defined categories of gender is "transgender", no matter how they identify and I don't think this is about to change. Most people do not intimately know others who cross gender norms and I honestly think the only way that non-community members will gain an appreciation of all the nuances in this community is to actually have personal experiences with the people who are in it. Unfortunately, the percentage of people who cross gender norms is small ... maybe that's why they make such a splash in the news.

But in here, I think it best for people to be a bit more precise than "transgender" if they want others to know who they are and what they want, and instead of everyone saying that the same term defines their own particular brand of gender expression, they should give that up and say what they do, how they feel, how they present and how often. And if they are out to family and friends, they can explain what they do and how they wish to live to them as well.




Yes, and my point it this largely exists because we lost the high ground. Instead of a straightforward and clear message, we have fractious and overly complicated B/S. We keep making this hard for ourselves for no good reason. And the problem is that once it is in the public domain, it is very hard to contradict.

What does this mean, and what is your solution. The conversation in here is going all over the place with pedophiles, criminals and what not.

[Julogden]

My hypothesis regarding high levels of intolerance from some straight males is that they react the strongest towards transgendered women who they perceive (at least subconsciously) as being attractive women after transition, and I'd include Caitlyn in this category. They're freaking out because they're feeling sexual attraction at some level for someone that they still perceive as being a man, and in Caitlyn's case, a very masculine man who was a role model of masculinity for millions of people.

[flatlander_48]

Granted, to the public everyone who crosses culturally defined categories of gender is "transgender", no matter how they identify and I don't think this is about to change.

This is precisely what I've been saying all along. It is the exact definition of the word. There is no adjustment due to frequency, privacy, motivations, if it is one way or if it is back and forth. Yet, people want to try to redefine the word. Silly...


What does this mean, and what is your solution. The conversation in here is going all over the place with pedophiles, criminals and what not.

This is very simple. As a community, we should quit trying to insert 37 different categories between crossdresser and transsexual. All that does is confuse everyone, serves no one and is a complete waste of time and effort. Yet, people continually try to do this because they don't want to be included with "those" people. B/S...

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

As a community, we should quit trying to insert 37 different categories between crossdresser and transsexual. All that does is confuse everyone, serves no one and is a complete waste of time and effort. Yet, people continually try to do this because they don't want to be included with "those" people. B/S...

Well, there are two different scenarios here and each should be handled differently:

1. The people you don't know: the people who serve you in restaurants and in stores and the millions of people that you don't run across but who are exposed to TV shows or articles about people who transition.


For the most part, these people are not interested in nuances, they don't really care what your motives are or how you live your life, and they do lump everyone together under "transgender". But, if they become interested, for example if they find out that someone in their lives experiences a desire to cross the culturally defined gender norms, then they are perfectly free to look up information online or read research articles in libraries that WILL explain the various motives and levels of crossing the gender norms.

2. The people you are connected to intimately: health care professionals, friends and family, your acquaintances that you are out to and may wish to explain things to, some of your coworkers, your friends in this forum and in support groups.


These people do want to know where exactly you fit within the spectrum. And depending on the depth of their connection to you, these are some of the questions they will want answered: Do you want to transition? Do you want to live full time? How often do you want to dress and do you want to go out? Do you want to come out to everyone you know or is going out to the next town over sufficient? How do you identify? Are you same-sex or opposite-sex attracted? Etc. So a "shorthand" for some of these answers, provided everyone has the same definitions of the words, might be, "transitioning TS", "non-transitioning TS", "part-time CDer", "full-time CDer", but even then these labels do not answer everything and more words are needed to answer all the questions these people are asking.

[flatlander_48]

And that's basically how I have treated it in my conversations. When I came out to my affinity group at work recently, I just stated that I identify as transgender and I dress. In some 1/1 discussions with a few members earlier, I stated that plus pointed out that I don't do drag and I'm not looking to transition. They already knew that I also identify as bisexual and actually I reiterated that as the entre to the coming out discussion. Those 5 pieces of information basically tell the whole story. That I do go out dressed a few times a month or often, neck down, at home or underdress nearly 100% of the time is irrelevant to those 5 pieces of information. Yet, people want to include that peripheral information in their spin on the definitions. That's where it doesn't make sense.

Anyway, information is meted out as needed, but it should stop short of creating confusion. Unfortunately, as a community, we don't seem to realize this.

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

These people do want to know where exactly you fit within the spectrum. And depending on the depth of their connection to you, these are some of the questions they will want answered: Do you want to transition? Do you want to live full time? How often do you want to dress and do you want to go out? Do you want to come out to everyone you know or is going out to the next town over sufficient? How do you identify? Are you same-sex or opposite-sex attracted? Etc. So a "shorthand" for some of these answers, provided everyone has the same definitions of the words, might be, "transitioning TS", "non-transitioning TS", "part-time CDer", "full-time CDer", but even then these labels do not answer everything and more words are needed to answer all the questions these people are asking.

No, the correct answer for most of the people you listed is "it's none of your business." Your wife, or partner, deserve all the answers you have, with the exception of the forward looking ones. No one knows the future with certainty. A medical doctor, the medical related questions. Everyone else? It really isn't their concern.

This is my primary problem with the way trans people are treated - we aren't accorded basic human dignity. When I tell people I'm trans, I am asked questions they'd likely never DARE ask another person. Why do they ask me? It's really simple - I'm not a person to them. It's obvious - you can read it in their body language. It is NONE of my friend's or coworkers business who I sleep with, or what we do when we are together. (I get graphic questions about both of those things.) I don't owe anyone prognostications about my future. People have no right to ask me "do you think you'll regret it and switch back?"

I'm asked these things, and objectified as a collection of body parts and medical procedures, because most people simply don't see me as a fellow human being. There are exceptions, but for the most part my experience has been that as soon as I reveal that I'm trans, I cross over from being seen as a woman, to being seen as some sort of a thing - a guy who's done such bizarre things that he's no longer recognizable as a person, but is rather a thing.

People don't need to psychoanalyze me, to figure out which kind of a "thing" I am. They need to treat me as they would any other human being, and take me at my word that I am who I say I am. My motivations for doing whatever it is I've done are none of their business. I might share those things with some people, and not others, at my discretion.

I'm very sorry to see these same attitudes persist here, but they are prevalent in society as a whole, so it shouldn't surprise me.

What people do need to know about someone like me is perhaps that I have lived every day of my life in fear. For the first 50 years, it was fear of discovery, rejection, ostracism, and physical violence should it be discovered who I really was. Now that I am open about who I am, I experience all of those things - rejection and ostracism, and I know that physical violence may await me at any time, simply because of who I am.

[ReineD]

And that's basically how I have treated it in my conversations. When I came out to my affinity group at work recently, I just stated that I identify as transgender and I dress. In some 1/1 discussions with a few members earlier, I stated that plus pointed out that I don't do drag and I'm not looking to transition.

Right. And it makes sense to answer the questions of the people whom you care to answer ... especially when your doctor, your wife, or even your best friend wants to know if you identify as a woman and wants SRS. :)

It would be nice if we had "shortcut words" that would describe major categories of all the people in this community to avoid getting into big long explanations (like the word "lesbian" ... it describes three things: a woman's sex, gender ID, and sexual attraction). And it would be nice if everyone agreed on the meaning of the shortcut words because it wouldn't take as many other words to describe what you do and what you want. But instead, we only have three shortcut words (CD, TS, TG) to describe a wide variety of people and motives and even then there are perpetual disagreements about what these shortcut words mean. So the use of any of these terms is rather pointless.

Dr. Harry Benjamin came up with a system of classifying CDs and TSs using a 6 point scale (CD type 1, 2, 3 and TS type 4, 5, 6) but it is not used; also he came up with it decades ago and there has been more research since then so it would need to be updated. But, if you're interested, here it is:
http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Original/OriginalChart.jpg

But to the masses who are not interested in you personally, I think just using "TG" is fine, which is what they and the media do anyway. And if some of the masses become more interested, if for example they discover that someone in their lives wishes to engage in cross-gender expression and they need to find out more about it, they will. And then they'll join the debate of what "CD, TG, and TS" means, since they'll pick one of the terms for themselves and insist that it describes people like themselves exclusively. lol

[flatlander_48]

I made the point is a recent message to someone that if you start to teach Physics, you don't start with the Theory of Relativity. You teach the concepts around matter, velocity, acceleration, gravity, etc. and then bring all those together into the discussion of the Theory of Relativity. You have to have context and background, with is why beginning a conversation that one identifies as #29 of the 237 possibilities between crossdresser and transsexual is just useless. And, when people don't get it (and we get pissed), we get dismissed or people make up their own information or both or something even worse...

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

You have to have context and background, with is why beginning a conversation that one identifies as #29 of the 237 possibilities between crossdresser and transsexual is just useless.

Like I said, there's no point explaining anything to the people in the first scenario who don't know you and don't care about you, which is what happens. The media does not elaborate on the meaning of "Transgender", nor do I imagine you hang a sign around your neck when you go out.

But, the second scenario: the people who do know you and care (like a wife who wants to know how you identify and if you want SRS) or who have reasons to ask specific questions (like an employer who wants to know if you plan on coming to work dressed like a woman every day, a doctor who wants to know to what degree you want to feminize your body, a best friend who wants to know if he should think of you as a man, a woman, someone in between, etc, or a prospective partner who wants to know who you are attracted to sexually), why would you not answer their questions.

[flatlander_48]

But, the second scenario: the people who do know you and care (like a wife who wants to know how you identify and if you want SRS) or who have reasons to ask specific questions (like an employer who wants to know if you plan on coming to work dressed like a woman every day, a doctor who wants to know to what degree you want to feminize your body, a best friend who wants to know if he should think of you as a man, a woman, someone in between, etc, or a prospective partner who wants to know who you are attracted to sexually), why would you not answer their questions.

Personally, I would because that what applies to me specifically with no broader range than that. It would also be a setting of give and take and extended discussion. Complicated topics can be presented and explained in that sort of situation.

It is an entirely different situation if I am speaking about the community at large in a non-personal setting. Speaking of the community at large usually requires a simplified approach. Once again, you don't start with the Theory of Relativity. You have to think more in terms of the sound bite kind of approach because usually the situations don't lend themselves to any extended explanations and discussions. Talking about the 237 splits and shades is pointless. It's like looking at an ice cube on a sidewalk. You see it now, but wait a while and it will be just s little puddle. Wait a bit longer, and you'll never know it was there. That's what happens when too much spurious information is thrown out, yet that doesn't seem to stop people from doing it.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

It is an entirely different situation if I am speaking about the community at large in a non-personal setting. Speaking of the community at large usually requires a simplified approach.

Yup, I agree. The media should continue to simply refer to everyone as Transgender, and you should continue to go out dressed without feeling compelled to explain to every stranger who you are or to wear a sign around your neck spelling it out. :D :D :D

As to whether or not we should have threads discussing it all here, we definitely should. People (like you perhaps?) who are not interested in dicussing the finer points of the definitions can simply choose to not participate and move on to the next thread.

[flatlander_48]

If that's what you think, nothing will ever change, will it? People really need to take a larger view beyond themselves. They don't see the difference between their own limited definitions and what's happening in the larger community. They try very hard to distance themselves because the "know" they are not like "those" people. I suspect over time they're realize that it wasn't a useful stance to take, but a lot of time, effort and momentum will be wasted.

And yes, I really see no purpose in "discussing the finer points" because in the end, it doesn't change anything. It seems that many of those discussions revolve around people trying to carve out their own little space that is separate from everybody else. Instead we should be figuring out how we can move forward as a community, in its entirety, rather than how we're NOT like somebody else.

Someone mentioned how lesbians and gays banded together, in spite of their differences. The basic thing that really bound them together was an attraction for the same sex. For us, what should bind us together is that we have ALL crossed a usually accepted gender boundary; some back and forth and some to stay. However, it seems that this is not enough to bind us together. We keep wanting to assert our differences rather than looking for common ground. That's where it becomes counterproductive...

DeeAnn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hey as long as everybody agrees with your definitions and limits to understanding then everything will be ok. As long as everybody sees it your way and shares your goals its productive...if not, its counterproductive... nice

Too bad for you that it doesn't work that way, it must be very frustrating.

Way too many people know exactly who and what they are, and what they are not...and they are not interested in being forced to identify as something they are not just because you or some organization says so or finds it helpful to achieve your goals.

Gays and Lesbians did not become Gaysbians so they could explain it more easily... Also, gay men do not presume to speak for lesbian women as if they are one of them...
they did not have to assert their differences because it was not necessary.... gay men did not have lesbian women running around saying they were part gay and may someday go all gay..

what you call asserting difference is nothing more than asserting identity which is a basic fundamental human right

[flatlander_48]

Name ONE marginalized group that ever got anywhere by splintering itself.

DeeAnn

[emma5410]

Name ONE marginalized group that ever got anywhere by hiding in the closet/bedroom. Where a large percentage were invisible and ashamed to reveal themselves.

Gay and lesbian rights were not won by those who stayed in the closet. They were won by being visible. Gays and lesbians had common aims and problems. I agree that TS and CD do share some common problems but the aims and needs of TS go beyond those of CDs. They go beyond because TS who have transitioned are visible whether they want to be or not. I am visible not from choice but from necessity.

I support the right of CDs to dress as women and walk down the street. Problem is that most do not because of prejudice and ignorance. That will not change by passing laws. There are already laws to protect people from violence and harassment. You have to walk down the street in such numbers that it becomes acceptable. This is what TS have to do. We are facing the brunt of the prejudice. Where are the drag queens and most CDs?

Unfortunately some are on message boards talking about us all being in this together from the safety of bedrooms and with the freedom to present as male when it gets tough.

This is not aimed at you DeeAnn. I read your post about your activism and I admire you for it but you are in a minority among CDs who are prepared to put their heads above the parapet.

[stefan37]

I may fall under the "transgender umbrella" but specifically I am a transitioning transsexual that will at some point in the future integrate as a female. The problem with lumping us all together as one transgender grout group makes it harder for me to move forward.

CD, gender fluid, gender queer individuals live as both male and female and go back and forth asv they feel fit. I don't have that luxury. I live as female 24/7 and can't go back and hide as a male. Society being what is is equates my situation with those gender fluid. So they view me not as female, but also gender fluid. The different distinctions may improve in the future, but not likely in my lifetime.

The longer transsexuals identify as Trans the longer it takes (and may never) to integrate as female. It's a weird phenomena that you can interact with Cis as female and be accepted as such. But once they figure out or get outed you are treated different. I experience it frequently at work. I can meet new clients and get treated as female. But once my employees inadvertently out me the game changes.

It's probably the primary reason so many transsexuals leave the Trans community after successfully integrating as female.

[Badtranny]

Name ONE marginalized group that ever got anywhere by hiding in the closet/bedroom. Where a large percentage were invisible and ashamed to reveal themselves.

oooooooooh

Oh no she DID'nt!

Damn, I missed this thread, but I pretty much can't say anything better than what Emma just said.

I do disagree with the Drag Queen comment though. Drag Queens have been getting their asses kicked by rubes for decades just for expressing themselves openly.

It's the closet CD or the closet Queer who has nothing to say about any of this. Your closet provides you safety, but it also denies you acceptance.

On the other hand, DeeAnn is standing strong against my girls. Good thread. :-)

[ReineD]

I may fall under the "transgender umbrella" but specifically I am a transitioning transsexual that will at some point in the future integrate as a female. The problem with lumping us all together as one transgender grout group makes it harder for me to move forward.

There! That's a perfectly simple and straightforward way of explaining exactly what you are doing and what you want.

As to lumping everyone together, I agree that in discussions in this forum, if everyone called themselves "Transgender" members would not know what was meant so it behooves everyone to be more specific like you. But then members here are familiar with the lingo and variances; members know that some members only underdress, while others present as men with women's clothes, while others present as full-on women (some to blend in the mainstream and others to glam it up in TG nightclubs), some do it for sexual thrill and some don't, some are happy dressing 2-3 times per month to go out while others never go out dressed although they dress exclusively in women's clothing at home, some want partial female body modifications (electrolysis and breasts), some want none, while some want full transition including FFS and SRS with legal name change. So in here, it is entirely appropriate to get into the details of what people want to do.

But in the mainstream? Most people have barely a passing interest and only if they know someone who crosses the gender norms in some way ... or these people are wanting to know what's happening to Chaz or Caitlyn. If these people don't know anyone who crosses the gender norms, then to them we are a world that is far removed from their reality and they don't really care.

There are books out there, TV shows, news stories, there have been a few sensitive movies, and there are websites that discuss this community and its members in great detail, including this forum. Most of the stories are about transitioning TSs (who are referred to as "transgender"), and I think it makes it difficult for CDers who do still want to present as men to be taken seriously in comparison. Still, if anyone in the mainstream wants to learn more, they need only go to the library or turn on their computers. But do they? I don't think so.



It's a weird phenomena that you can interact with Cis as female and be accepted as such. But once they figure out or get outed you are treated different. I experience it frequently at work. I can meet new clients and get treated as female. But once my employees inadvertently out me the game changes.

I'm sorry this happens. I can certainly see the necessity for being stealth. We do live in a world that persists on defining people based on their birth-sex even when they undergo a full social and legal transition and I can't see this changing any time soon, no matter how many Caitlyns or Chaz's come out publicly and tell their stories. As to Caitlyn, I don't know if the mainstream will ever look upon her as a GG and "forget" that she was once a world-famous male decathlon gold Olympian.

I also think that more people will come to accept that some birth-males identify as females and need to live as women. But will they see them as GGs ... or as "former males". I don't think they can forget the former-male. Same with Chaz, but the reverse. How many people don't think "former Chastity Bono, daughter of Sonny and Cher" when they see him.

Edit-
I posted this by mistake without finishing.
... Anyway, I think many people in the developed world will come to accept transitioners, but I don't know if they'll be able to see transitioners fully as their target sex. I think that even when people are accepting, they'll look upon trans-women as being different than GGs. Doesn't mean they'll think of them as "men", but I think it will be difficult to get past "former-men".

[PaulaQ]

Gays and Lesbians did not become Gaysbians so they could explain it more easily... Also, gay men do not presume to speak for lesbian women as if they are one of them...
they did not have to assert their differences because it was not necessary.... gay men did not have lesbian women running around saying they were part gay and may someday go all gay..

What are you talking about? There was often great hostility between gays and lesbians back in the early days of gay rights, and in part this hostility drove lesbians to use a different term to describe themselves. They very easily could have referred to themselves as gay men or gay women. In fact, many gay people do exactly that now.

The AIDs epidemic changed this dynamic, and many gay women ended up in leadership of gay organizations, particularly AIDS related ones.

However, even today, you'll see organizations like the HRC that are largely run by white gay men, and they sure as hell claim to speak for all LGBT people.

And thanks for mentioning the horrible erasure of bisexuals "part gay and may someday go all gay" - yeah, this is precisely what I hear all the damned time here in the Dallas gay community.

[tommi]

I think the amount of press has been good and bad as this has made people aware of our plight .
At the same time in a neighboring school
The local news had a story of a ftm getting to dress in the male colors.
My sons own school had 2 and there was no press or mention of it other then the class president pointing out how accepting his class was of everybody .
My only question is do we need all the press and tabloid of if all.
Accept me for who I am not what I was

[AllieSF]

Yes, Tommi, we do need all the press and tabloid of it. Yes, some press is better or a lot worse than others, but otherwise we are mostly out of sight and out of mind to the majority of people. The not famous transitioner's like those kids who are just starting their lives will only become public knowledge when someone decides to write about it or someone makes a big negative fuss about them. Thus, in other locations we have no knowledge that it is happening successfully without a lot of issues. However, what might happen successfully in one school if not the norm in a lot of others, If the administration and teachers do not actively support and protect them, their young lives can be an unnecessary hell.

Having well known figures like Caitlyn Jenner publicly transitioning, especially the way that she is, very publicly, will bring into view the lives of others who are trying to transition who have had such an unfair time of just trying to live their own lives as best that they can. I realize that Caitlyn will be making a lot of money out of her process and at times it will be over the top as reality TV can be. However, that not so positive aspect of her transition will be far out weighed by a lot of positive results of just letting everyone else out there know that we exist, have rights and have been mistreated for way too long. That is my belief.

[flatlander_48]

The longer transsexuals identify as Trans the longer it takes (and may never) to integrate as female. It's a weird phenomena that you can interact with Cis as female and be accepted as such. But once they figure out or get outed you are treated different. I experience it frequently at work. I can meet new clients and get treated as female. But once my employees inadvertently out me the game changes.

It's probably the primary reason so many transsexuals leave the Trans community after successfully integrating as female.

Is this really true? I do not mean this to demean anyone, but the reality is that genetic women usually have a 2 or 3 decade head start in thinking and interacting with the world as a female. I'm speaking of this in the broadest sense. Females have a very different perspective on the world compared to males. They have different expectations, different ways of socializing, different ways of getting things done, different ways of influencing their environment, etc.

So, the question is how much of these differences can be learned and assimilated by people who were raised as males? It would seem that this is a major challenge that must be worked around. Clearly my perspective is from the outside looking in, so I wonder how this plays out in real life?

DeeAnn

[stefan37]

It is absolutely true. Whether you are CD, gender fluid or transsexual. Hanging and socializing predominately with other Trans individuals is in many ways trading one closet for another. Integrating into society as female is indeed a challenge. To be successful, we need to socialize with as many Cis individuals as possible. Join professional associations, social Clubs and be out and about. We are at a disadvantage transitioning to female from a male socialized perspective. Many times I feel as if I am cramming for a test. I'm also finding that 2 years full-time is way more difficult than the year before. I am being accepted by more individuals and many do view me as female until they figure I'm Trans. I'm transitioning in place in my town, in my business and in front of my family and friends. Stealth for me is not an option. I'm OK with that. Transition is a very long term process. I have no doubt that I will be successful in the long term. Short term will take more work.

I have no doubt that Jenner's transition will be beneficial long term understanding Trans issues. Short term, we will have a bright spotlight shining on us. Unlike some that blab their Trans status to just about everybody they meet. I don't volunteer, but I won't deny. I feel comfortable and confident talking to anybody about my transsexuality. I've also learned the best thing is not to talk about it unless asked. And in many cases the less said the better.

I have many Trans friends and I have no problem going out with any of them. However to move forward and integrate I need to limit my involvement with the Trans community. There are many dysfunctional vocal individuals that feel their view and transition are the only valid ones and woe to those that don't toe their line of thinking.

If CD, gender fluid individuals want to be accepted and have the freedom to express as they wish. They need to get out and be visible by interacting with the general public.

[flatlander_48]

I have many Trans friends and I have no problem going out with any of them. However to move forward and integrate I need to limit my involvement with the Trans community.

Sorry, but that sounds like "I've got mine. You? You're on your own...".

[Collette Z]

I have nothing to add except to repeat flatlander over and over again.


we should quit trying to insert 37 different categories between crossdresser and transsexual. All that does is confuse everyone, serves no one and is a complete waste of time and effort. Yet, people continually try to do this because they don't want to be included with "those" people. B/S...

[PaulaQ]

It's a weird phenomena that you can interact with Cis as female and be accepted as such. But once they figure out or get outed you are treated different. I experience it frequently at work. I can meet new clients and get treated as female. But once my employees inadvertently out me the game changes.

I experience this frequently. I am very open about being trans. I've been in the local media, newspapers and television. I disclose my trans history to people after I've known them a short time. I do this deliberately, because visibility is what will change attitudes about us.

And upon this disclosure, my relationship with the cis person often changes subtly, and not in a good way. This isn't universally true. I sometimes meet cis people who don't really seem to care that I'm trans. But for many others, I become a curiosity, an object - something they feel they can ask terribly personal questions, because I have no right to basic human respect and dignity.

This can be very isolating.

I do this because many others of us will never pass. So why should I? Oh, I'll use passing privilege for safety - I'd be insane not to - but I believe I'm of better service to the community by being open about who I am.

I also understand why this isn't for everyone, and I criticize no one for being stealth. Feeling like an exile is stressful. Unfortunately, my observations of people who are stealth is that frequently they find they are simply in another closet, living in fear of discovery, isolated from people who understand how they feel.

Anyway, because I'm out, I have rather few close cis friends. It'd be nice to socialize with more cis people, but thus far, it simply doesn't happen for me. I do miss this.

[stefan37]

Nothing could be further from the truth Dee Ann . I expended a tremendous amount of energy, angst, money and personal losses to be where I am. I continue every single day to accepted as female and its a huge challenge. I will never be stealth due to where I live, my age and owning and running my own electrical/mechanical contracting company. But trust me I have no intention of living in trannyland forever either.

That's the reality of living as a transwoman 24/7. I can't go back to a safe comfort level as a male. You may think it's I got mine screw the rest, but I worked damn hard just as anyone that is actively transitioning from one gender to another.

Hell I would venture a guess a majority that post here are hiding from their spouses and so's. You want acceptance and the freedom to express freely, then get out and go out with Cis people. Not just go out solo or with a group of CD's to dinner or whatever. Join a social club and mingle. Until Trans individuals stop hiding and start interacting with the general public amongst them socially will the stigma hopefully subside.

[flatlander_48]

s:

You have to remember that this is the Internet. Very few of us actually know one another and the significant details of our lives. Also intrinsic to this environment, we have words without the nuances realized from basic human contact. In that context, I responded to what your words said to me.

DeeAnn

[Samantha_Smile]

So far TLDR....

My stance on the matter.
As outward appearances look good for Caitlyn in that - her surgeries have had a beautiful cosmetic effect and I wish her the best (she will need it), I have doubts about the circumstances under which the transition took place.
As an impartial bystander with only the word of my own TS friends and my own medical knowledge (been a registered nurse for 10 years) I have to say that it all seems very rushed.
I think that even though she does have a lot of disposable income, I feel that she has done too much too quick and it will lead to something worse than killing another person with her car.
I believe she has unexplored psychological issues not related to GID and that this may be, in part, a coping mechanism.
It may be wrong of me to say, but I'm worried whenever I see anyone... ANYONE over the age of 40 transition. Not just because of the physical toll, but because I have to wonder, how did this person make it to 40 and not come out or kill themselves?
How did this woman, living in a man's body cope for 40 years or more without wanting to end the suffering of living a lie?
I appreciate that 40 is sorta 'picked out of the air' but think about it... could you cope that long?

I'm sceptical that (then) Bruce's motivations to become Caitlyn were... what's the right word?.... Correct?

I think there is a lot more going on here than meets the eye.

It did annoy me to hear that she attended a support group meeting to give a talk on TSism and didn't donate a single penny to the cause.
After all that money she could afford on surgery, making it clear she's out and proud, becoming a spokesperson for TS's everywhere, but can't spare a dime to help out?


I wish her the best whether I'm right or wrong.

[flatlander_48]

S:



There are older people who have transitioned
She was on a path to transition some years ago, but stopped
Did the text say that she didn't make a donation that day or had never done so?
Many people have amazing coping mechanisms, but when they reach the end of their tolerance, something has to change. I don't see how there is anything magical about 40.
How many medical people do you have to convince before you're on a path to transition?
I don't understand "very rushed". She had facial surgery and a breast augmentation. What's rushed about that?


DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

Not just because of the physical toll, but because I have to wonder, how did this person make it to 40 and not come out or kill themselves?

I began my transition at age 50. I did suicidal types of things at earlier times during my life. Sometimes your attempts fail, although my bout with alcohol at 27 could well have finished the job had my family not intervened.

I never believed I could do this, although I thought about it when I was much younger.

Some of us attempt suicide, and fail.

Do I not seem real to you?

[Sara Jessica]

@Smile

Walk 40+ miles...I mean years...in my shoes and you'll see how one can survive, and even thrive. This is in spite of a common thread of pain that many of us share.

I've said before, putting a gun in my mouth at some point isn't a requirement. That doesn't get anyone a patch on their vest to demonstrate how trans they are.

Am I not real either???

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I began to have my "Death thoughts" in my 40's... i always thought i was a cross dresser....i coped with being female by compartmentalizing and being highly functioning as a guy.. this lasted until i couldn't take it anymore... i left my job and transitioned...i''m 53 next week...i'm very real


samantha you are making stuff up.... posting assumptions you've made that have no substance..

Caitlyn Jenner may or may not have co morbid mental health issues ...and Caitlyn jenner surely enjoys limelight and success in lots of ways including $$

so what.. It couldnt be more obvious that she suffered gender dysphoria , everybody knew for quite some time...there is no controversy around motives ...

the only real controversy seems to be whether she is a good role model..

[Rogina B]

Nothing could be further from the truth Dee Ann . I expended a tremendous amount of energy, angst, money and personal losses to be where I am. I continue every single day to accepted as female and its a huge challenge. I will never be stealth due to where I live, my age and owning and running my own electrical/mechanical contracting company. But trust me I have no intention of living in trannyland forever either.

That's the reality of living as a transwoman 24/7. I can't go back to a safe comfort level as a male.

You want acceptance and the freedom to express freely, then get out and go out with Cis people. Not just go out solo or with a group of CD's to dinner or whatever. Join a social club and mingle. Until Trans individuals stop hiding and start interacting with the general public amongst them socially will the stigma hopefully subside.
Social transitioning is the biggest part to it. We got here from a male life and did not have the life shaping lessons that a Cis female has had. However,we have had other lessons as a male...Transitioning socially requires you to give up a lot of what males take as "theirs" and try to learn it from the other side.....The learning lessons will never end..

[PaulaQ]

I've said before, putting a gun in my mouth at some point isn't a requirement. That doesn't get anyone a patch on their vest to demonstrate how trans they are.

No, it isn't a requirement at all. In fact I am always happy to hear about the folks who transition without reaching the point of "transition or die." Goddammit, nobody should ever reach such a point of desperation. That nearly half of us do is a tragedy.

[stefan37]

I did not reach that point where it was transition or die. I had this inner urge to feminize myself and show that to the world. I felt like i was on a runway train and had lost control of my life. I've always had some anxiety, but it reached a level where it became intolerable. I didn't understand the underlying cause of my anxiety. I may even have been able to live as some of you in the middle. But that internal urge was strong and with the help of my therapist I dug deep and was honest with myself. It was then I felt the best course to obtain my life back was to start actively transitioning. I started hormones and 3 days later my anxiety was not just muted as it was with pharma's. But it was gone. My desire to drink and do drugs gone with it. I have been full-time 2 years and despite the losses and challenges my quality of life has improved exponentially. By the was I turned 58 this year.

[Megan G]

I guess I am ok then since I was 38 before I got to that transition or die moment. And yes getting to that stage does suck, I am not going to relive those thoughts..

But to address the comment about questioning anyone over 40 that transitions. Until you have walked 40 years in these women's shoes you will not understand the fortitude it took to keep pressing on in a life that felt wrong (speaking from experience).

I kept telling myself if I just did this or if I just did that I would be able to make these feelings go away.

I can relate to Caitlyn Jenners story on a very personal level. While I did not become the worlds greatest athlete I did focus all of my energy and monetary resources from the age of 15 to 28 into the sport of motocross, and I became very successful. It took a great deal of focus, dedication and energy to get to the pro ranks and that enabled me to distract myself from my gender issues for those years. Sure there were moments that it crept back in just to remind me that my gender dysphoria was still there but that usually made me push harder to try and erase them.

Then I got injured and was told that I would never race at that level again I shifted that energy into my career like many others did. It got me thru another decade but as each year went by it became more increasing difficult to live the lie I was living.

So yes I am real...

Megan

[flatlander_48]

M G:

Over compensation is a very similar construct for gay people also. Your statement "...if I just did this..." is exactly the same...

DeeAnn

[Megan G]

DeeAnn

I am very well aware that it was my overcompensation that got me thru all those years. It was a coping mechanism for me. Along with denial, I kept telling myself that I can't be a transexual as I hunt, fish, race and like women

So yep I am a lesbian as well...

All good now...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sorry, but that sounds like "I've got mine. You? You're on your own...".

reading some of what you say, i think this quote is very helpfully summing up where you are coming from on all this..

Let us all know
How is Stephanie living her simply living her gender identity saying "you're on your own"....it has NOTHING to do with you...it is not ABOUT you....its about solving her medical issue thru transition... how she got there is her own path...it is not dressing up, blending, flowing...its just a medical procedure to solve a huge problem...its a medical transition..how is this a message to anybody????????

also tell me, how is she getting hers? (I've got mine..).... what exactly is she getting?

here's what she gets...she get her gender identity...that's it...regardless of surgery appearance or anything to do with clothes or femininity, she gets to be her...

that's what all transsexuals get... and whether its ok with you or not, I don't look at the world through the lens of what other people have or don't have..i am cheering for everybody especially with regards to their relationship with their gender.. i hope everybody gets everything they want...(just be careful about what you want)

and what is it that Stephanie has that you want??? why would you want what she has?

[emma5410]

Sorry, but that sounds like "I've got mine. You? You're on your own...".

What can you say in answer to that?? Stephanie is out there 24/7. Living her life and changing opinions and perceptions. Facing a major struggle to be herself.
Amazingly, DeeAnne thinks she is not doing enough. Unlike all the CDs who stay in the shadows who DeeAnne never criticises. I know you go out sometimes DeeAnne but just stop for a moment and compare what you do and what Stephanie does. Then have the decency to apologise.

[LeaP]

It may be wrong of me to say, but I'm worried whenever I see anyone... ANYONE over the age of 40 transition. Not just because of the physical toll, but because I have to wonder, how did this person make it to 40 and not come out or kill themselves?
How did this woman, living in a man's body cope for 40 years or more without wanting to end the suffering of living a lie?
I appreciate that 40 is sorta 'picked out of the air' but think about it... could you cope that long?

I'm sceptical that (then) Bruce's motivations to become Caitlyn were... what's the right word?.... Correct?



As someone FIRMLY in the over-40 category ...

I did it by screwing my life over. Depression (serious, clinical, life threatening), alcohol, divorce, isolation, social anxiety, and a lot more. 3 suicide attempts.

Your statement is built on a lot of assumptions. Rather than cast aspersions on older transitioners and their motives, why don't you think about it then post those thoughts in detail? That would at least be useful.

Caitlyn's recounting of her experiences throughout life in dealing with GD resonated very deeply.




the only real controversy seems to be whether she is a good role model..

Interesting, as I had a conversation about this earlier today with my wife. Those with whom she has spoken about the Vanity Fair shoot really dislike it from an exploitation point of view. I think there are a variety of reasons Caitlyn has done what she has in the way she has, but there is no doubt it continues the cultural conversation about the exploitation of women's bodies.

[flatlander_48]

I have many Trans friends and I have no problem going out with any of them. However to move forward and integrate I need to limit my involvement with the Trans community.


reading some of what you say, i think this quote is very helpfully summing up where you are coming from on all this..

Let us all know
How is Stephanie living her simply living her gender identity saying "you're on your own"....it has NOTHING to do with you...it is not ABOUT you....its about solving her medical issue thru transition... how she got there is her own path...it is not dressing up, blending, flowing...its just a medical procedure to solve a huge problem...its a medical transition..how is this a message to anybody????????

also tell me, how is she getting hers? (I've got mine..).... what exactly is she getting?

here's what she gets...she get her gender identity...that's it...regardless of surgery appearance or anything to do with clothes or femininity, she gets to be her...

that's what all transsexuals get... and whether its ok with you or not, I don't look at the world through the lens of what other people have or don't have..i am cheering for everybody especially with regards to their relationship with their gender.. i hope everybody gets everything they want...(just be careful about what you want)

and what is it that Stephanie has that you want??? why would you want what she has?


What can you say in answer to that?? Stephanie is out there 24/7. Living her life and changing opinions and perceptions. Facing a major struggle to be herself.
Amazingly, DeeAnne thinks she is not doing enough. Unlike all the CDs who stay in the shadows who DeeAnne never criticises. I know you go out sometimes DeeAnne but just stop for a moment and compare what you do and what Stephanie does. Then have the decency to apologise.

First, this is NOT a comparison and it has NOTHING to do with me. Both of you keep trying to do that, but you can quit because it is just silly.

The passage above by s37 appears to be saying that after she has drawn all of the support and goodwill from the community, then the only way for her to go further is by separating herself from that community. It's hard to interpret it otherwise. To me, it doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. Evidently s37 has figured out some things and her transition is progressing. But, by separating herself from the rest of the community, her advice and counsel will largely be lost to others in that community. Evidently as time goes on, it appears she is spending less and less time interacting with the community.

THAT was the point.

I believe that the saying "None of us are free until we are ALL free." is very descriptive of how things really work. Put another way, we must all move forward together.

DeeAnn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

None of us are free until we all are free..
this could be said of every person on planet earth...its a noble sentiment...however it is NOT descriptive of how things really work..its not even a little bit close...perhaps its the way things should work..imagine all the people....

in any case, you said what you said...you didnt answer the question..

you clearly think she "got something" ...what did she get?? what exactly should she give back? who exactly is she ignoring?? should she go to a meeting?? give a speech?? I go to some meetings btw...i give speeches...i have laid my heart and soul on the line for dozens of large groups...we go out every moment of every day and lay it on the line..

is living an authentic life in front of everybody around her enough for you??

What you clearly do not understand or appreciate is what a person does when they transition. i can deal with that...you are going to have to deal with it too..

[Lorileah]

I wish everyone who transitions the ability to "disappear" into the world. It won't happen with me no matter how much surgery etc I try. It won't happen to most TSs. Therefore, I will align with the community even after. If just to help others transition

[flatlander_48]

in any case, you said what you said...you didnt answer the question..

Yes, I did. The following paragraph covered it specifically. And sorry, while I can explain it to you, I cannot understand it for you.


The passage above by s37 appears to be saying that after she has drawn all of the support and goodwill from the community, then the only way for her to go further is by separating herself from that community. It's hard to interpret it otherwise. To me, it doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. Evidently s37 has figured out some things and her transition is progressing. But, by separating herself from the rest of the community, her advice and counsel will largely be lost to others in that community. Evidently as time goes on, it appears she is spending less and less time interacting with the community.


I wish everyone who transitions the ability to "disappear" into the world. It won't happen with me no matter how much surgery etc I try. It won't happen to most TSs. Therefore, I will align with the community even after. If just to help others transition

It's curious that this is such a difficult topic for some...

DeeAnn

[stefan37]

Just exactly what is it about my perception that I have to limit my social interaction with the Trans community that you do not get? What exactly has the "goodwill and the support of the community" given me? Caitlyn's coming out will my doubt be beneficial to the Trans movement in the future. But for right now has shined a huge fat spotlight on me and my transess. Any hope I had of blending in the shadows for now has vanished. I belong to 2 professional organizations for many years. Many more years as Stephen. I have been full-time close to 2 years. I still get gendered male regardless of the fact I have breasts, show up with makeup and occasionly dresses. Had I a male identity I wouldn't mind. But the whole idea behind transitioning is not only to freely express my identity and live authentically, but to have that identity reflected back.

I am out 24/7 as Stephanie interacting with the general public. I belong to a Sailing club and they have only known me as Stephanie. Yet I still get misgendered. Because I am out publicly as who I am an ambassador for the Trans movement every single hour I interact with the public. Can you say the same?

Let's see what the Trans community has given me. First of I have lost the love of the one person I love more than any other in the entire world. A person I have spent over 35 years building a business and raising 2 kids. My need to be authentic cost me any chance to live out my life with companionship. There is a very good possibility I will live alone the remainder of my life. I have spent to date over 60k out of pocket money to get medical treatment to have any chance of quality of life and to live authentically. I still need another 28k betwenn now to Nov
For scheduled SRS. Major issue with insurance is there are no doctors in network that handle Trans issues. So all the therapy, hormones, endocrinologist and SRS surgeon is all out of pocket. Thankfully my immediate family is accepting if not exactly supportive.
Spending time with Cis individuals especially women has shown there is a huge difference how females interact with each other and the world. A perspective I will not get interacting exclusively of a large part of my time with the Trans community. Those of us late life transitioners( and the majority of transsexuals I meet are later life) are transitioning from a male point of view. Cd's that are part of these support groups are for the most part male identified. So that means that any transitioner that wishes to shall we say unlearn male socializations and learn how to interact with the world as a female will have no chance to do so successfully.

Those of you that are/or have transitioned will know exactly what I am taking about. Those of you that are male identified will not. There is absolutely male privilege. It exists and to successfully integrate as female and have that reflected back. It is imperative we give up that privilege that was bestowed on us only due to the fact we were born with penises.

Until you are ready to give up that male privilege, spend this retirement on medical treatment, take the chance you will lose your loved ones, family, friends, employment. Please don't criticise my involvement of lack of involvement in the Trans community and support groups. Just the fact I live openly as a transwoman I am doing exponentially more than any CD or part timers that go to support groups or only go out web enfemme with other Cd's and part timers.

I said I have limited my interaction with the Trans community.
But to illustrate how involved I still am. My son asked me to talk to his girlfriend's friend because he was having gender conflicts. We spoke for over an hour and I offered to accompany him to the support group I used to attend.
As an in place transitioner I am out, and visible. It is my choice and mine alone how involved or not I am with the Trans community.

[emma5410]

DeeAnne have you finished criticising TS who are visible and doing far more than you or the vast majority of CDs will ever do?

Are you now going to turn your attention on the real reason why there is no 'transgender' movement and that is the legion of hidden CDs? Based on your attacks on TS you must be furious with them. Yet all we get silence and more criticism of TS.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

DeeAnn i enjoy your comments because they are so condescending about something you literally do not understand.
You don't get it. I know this because i live this. You do not.
Every single day , every moment...all of us.. i don't mind generally being "asked" to do something..but co opt my identity and then demand my "support" (whatever that means to you)??? no thanks..

You are dealing with your inablity to internalize the transsexual experience on this board.

When you say condesceding things it only highlights the missing substance.. You don't understand why its a difficult topic because you don't actually understand it.
I asked because perhaps you could clarify your statement but you doubled down.
I asked because your pointed misinterpretation and making assumptions about Stephanies comments show your lack of understanding...

Nobody who understands what she goes through would say what you said.. Nobody.

Your platitudes are nothing to a person that is living their life as a transsexual 24/7.
Your jabs just show your lack of empathy and understanding for what transsexuals really do when they transition.

[stefan37]

What is obvious is the desire to integrate as a female is a difficult topic for you to grasp. If I didn't have a need to have my identity reflected back to me as female. I could have just lived as an open transgendered part timer. Such a simple solution. I would still be married to my beautiful ex. I could have saved myself 75k. Not to mention the pain and suffering and emotional trauma from medical precedes. Socially interacting would be so much easier.

It's different (diffucult implies a wall or obstruction, hence the term different). There are many challenges to integrating as female. Notice I didn't say dress. That's easy, but you will still be perceived as a male in woman's clothing. The further we entrench in the Trans community the longer it takes to integrate as female. Many transsexuals and certainly Cd's are men in dresses. They espouse their female identity but they really aren't. They have no clue that they won't let go of their male privilege.
I have many transsexual friends. Some truly do not have female identity. Others are OK being Trans and able to express their authenticity. A minority and that includes me want to leave the male behind and completely integrate as female. Transitioning in place at my age, it will never truly happen. But damn I will do my best to achieve total integration. I love all my friends and I will do anything in my power to support them. I fully understand the trials, challenges, hatred and losses we all have had to endure to live authentically. But that doesn't mean I have to live my life as them.

Start living your life open. You don't need to medically transition. But live your life authentically as an open and out cross dresser and you may then find what we NEED to do to make living authentically a reality.

[Katey888]

I think DeeAnn genuinely doesn't understand - I can't think she would deliberately be condescending (although I'll leave her to answer for herself...) - but let me explain why...

I can understand that you wouldn't either need or want to spend any or much time with the transitional trans community if it's your desire just to live a normal life once you've got beyond the support the community can offer - normal life is meant to be as normal as possible - I think that's a choice and perfectly understandable and not unreasonable either. I get that...

It's also easy to misinterpret what folk are saying here - we don't always write in elegant, flowing language - it's often very shortform and quickly written so PLEASE try to stop having little digs (Both sides) about 'getting things' or 'difficulty' and just try to EXPLAIN it in a different way... :)

Just shouting the same thing louder is like 'Brits speaking Foreign'... it really doesn't help understanding... and if it doesn't get accepted, then we just have to agree to disagree...

Thank you...

Katey
Moderator

[flatlander_48]

What I said was based on being involved with, and leading, employee affinity groups for the better part of 20 years. What I've seen happen sometimes is that people draw upon the resources of the group, get the benefit of advice and counsel, have doors opened and they progress without ever reaching back. So, those experiences that could be shared, that first-hand advice that could be given, etc. is lost. That does not help the community (speaking across any number of constituencies) or those who come afterwards.

When you speak of gaining acceptance, do not forget that it is a game of numbers. If you reach back and assist someone else in their transition and the result is making it a smoother process, a less painful process (although it will never be painless) or a better understood process so good choices can be made, this can only be beneficial. When you consider the number of cisgender people that you encounter in the world at large, for every person who comes out of transition in good shape (relatively), you have potentially doubled the number of impressions that you would have made by yourself. By not reaching back, you lose the potential multiplier of your own efforts. Simply put, this is how activism works. Metaphorically speaking, is it better to have one person carrying a sign or a whole busload? This is not a trivialization of one's efforts; it is a reminder of how those efforts can be expanded.

Now, argue the concept and the logic, but this is not about me. All I am doing is sharing what I have learned from advocacy and activism. And while it is a very human trait that our own well being is of primary concern, we can't forget that when we help others, we help ourselves; we make it easier for ourselves.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

This thread is all over the place. I thought we were talking about defining what is and is not TG.

DeeAnn, there's a difference between employee affinity groups where the focus is business pathways, which are secondary to a person's private life (and indeed everyone goes home at the end of the day to enjoy their highly individual private lives), and transitioned TSs who see themselves as women and who do not have a lot in common with people who identify differently and who may possibly end up choosing different paths.

It's like people who've graduated from college and are now moving forward in their adult careers, settling down, starting families, getting mortgages. You don't see them hanging out with college kids who have entirely different perspectives and priorities and who will also follow different career paths and live in different areas in different socioeconomic circles, etc.

Some things we can pass on to others, like how to do a specific job that involves an algorithm of sorts, but other things that involve personal choices based on a myriad of variables (personalities, life circumstances, personal desires, etc) cannot be passed on. People need to make choices appropriate for themselves. If you're talking about sticking around to tell someone HOW to transition (medications, which doctors to use, how far to take the transition, how to handle it at work, etc), then again the choices are too varied for one transitioned TS to advise another. Still, there are doctors to answer these questions, therapists, the HR department at work, support forums and groups where some transitioned TSs participate.

Why do you think that a TS woman can better assist someone beginning the process of transition (who is likely not yet sure how far she wants to take this because it does depend on personal circumstances for many people) better than the doctors, therapists, the person's own family, employer, etc.

If you're talking about transitioned women taking up signs and making their transitions public so help inure the public to the few transitioners there are, this is asking a lot. Not every person is prepared to live a public life (thus ruining their prospects of living quietly as a woman) for the sake of others who are not yet out. And what of these others? Should they all come out and carry signs even if they don't fully transition? Do you really think this will make a difference?

If you're not talking about any of these things, then I'm at a loss to understand your main point.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn, there's a difference between employee affinity groups where the focus is business pathways, which are secondary to a person's private life (and indeed everyone goes home at the end of the day to enjoy their highly individual private lives), and transitioned TSs who see themselves as women and who do not have a lot in common with people who identify differently and who may possibly end up choosing different paths.

No, we are not two different people and that's often where there is a disconnect. We are not one person 8 to 5 and someone else the rest of the time. One's personal life effects one's professional life and vice-versa unless one is subject to schizophrenia. To attempt to maintain that separation is not good. That's a problem that lesbians, gays and bisexuals have continually faced because you cannot effectively separate your life like that. This is the point behind the phrase "Bring your whole self to work.". However, my reference was to reinforce the thought process behind advocacy and activism.


It's like people who've graduated from college and are now moving forward in their adult careers, settling down, starting families, getting mortgages. You don't see them hanging out with college kids who have entirely different perspectives and priorities and who will also follow different career paths and live in different areas in different socioeconomic circles, etc.

No, it's not. They are no longer peers in a significant sense. Someone who is about to transition, or is in the process, has much more in common with someone who has transitioned than the situation you mention. There is no comparison with permanently life-altering events.


If you're talking about sticking around to tell someone HOW to transition (medications, which doctors to use, how far to take the transition, how to handle it at work, etc), then again the choices are too varied for one transitioned TS to advise another. Still, there are doctors to answer these questions, therapists, the HR department at work, support forums and groups where some transitioned TSs participate.

I NEVER said "tell someone HOW to transition". Please comment on what I write. What I said was sharing one's experience. While there are doctors and therapists who have transitioned, they would represent a very small part of the total number of practitioners. World wide, the company I work for has about 30,000 employees with HR folks at every site. I've been a member of our LGBT affinity group for 12 years. As far as I know, no one from the HR community that has transitioned; at least in the time that they have been employed here. We would have heard, unofficially, as it's hard to keep that quiet.


Why do you think that a TS woman can better assist someone beginning the process of transition (who is likely not yet sure how far she wants to take this because it does depend on personal circumstances for many people) better than the doctors, therapists, the person's own family, employer, etc.

Seriously? It's another piece to the puzzle; an experiential piece that may be difficult to find otherwise. I didn't put any qualifiers on it relating to beginning, middle or end, but be realistic. The vast majority of employers need to be educated as few have had to deal with transitioning employees. Further, what are your chances of having someone in your family to share their experiences?


If you're talking about transitioned women taking up signs and making their transitions public so help inure the public to the few transitioners there are, this is asking a lot. Not every person is prepared to live a public life (thus ruining their prospects of living quietly as a woman) for the sake of others who are not yet out. And what of these others? Should they all come out and carry signs even if they don't fully transition? Do you really think this will make a difference?

As I said, please comment on what I write. I used the phrase: METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING. It was an example of relative numbers.


If you're not talking about any of these things, then I'm at a loss to understand your main point.

This is really a simple concept. s said she was limiting her involvement in the community and placing more emphasis on her interactions in the cisgender world (or whatever the exact text was). This is her path to gaining acceptance. My point was that gaining acceptance is a game of numbers, hence the metaphor. Obviously, one can interact with only so many people. What if, by sharing your experiences and knowledge with others, it helped make things easier for them or perhaps led to a better outcome? Then instead of YOU interacting with the cisgender world, then it would be YOU and OTHERS doing the same thing. Your efforts are multiplied; many more positive impressions are made. It is a game of numbers.

If I remember correctly, same-sex marriage is now legal in 37 US states. It wasn't terribly long ago that the number was almost nonexistent. It wasn't one person or a small group of people that brought this about. It was a small army. It is a game of numbers.

This is how acceptance is gained. I didn't say that s's efforts on her own behalf were misplaced. What I talked about was a way to multiply her efforts.

It also struck me that what she said sounded like a typical male isolation pattern. It is the "I can fix this all by myself, I don't need help from anybody" notion. Sometimes, that just isn't the best way forward.

DeeAnn

[stefan37]

You talk about advocacy and activism as that should be requisite of those transitioning. Yes there are some that for whatever circumstance are either thrust or make the conscious effort to be an activist. I have no desire to be an activist. I will not walk around with a sign around my neck. " Hi I Stephanie, I'm a transsexual ". Trust me I do more to advocate Trans issues by the very fact I am out and about 24/7. The fact remains that if a transitioner wants to integrate as female they need to limit their interactions with the Trans community. I don't say this lightly. I have been actively transitioning for 3 years. Full time the last 2. I have many transsexual friends that I communicate and interact with frequently. There are some that live exclusively in the lbgt community. Interacting with the general public when it's absolutely necessary. There are some that are very open about being Trans and are happy to be. I also know many that wasn't nothing more than to live amongst the general public as female and to be treated as such. We are absolutely treated differently when we are perceived as female and when they figure we are Trans. Once outed being gendered as female becomes a crap shoot. Many times female pronouns are dropped and male pronouns become dominate. You would not know that because you are male and interact as male.

I have no desire to trade one closet for another. I know other Trans individuals that have transitioned and are for the most part assimilated into society as female. They sometimes feel they are in the closet for the fear of being outed. Maybe that will be my path in the future. Maybe not. The best way to assimilate and be accepted is to not talk about Trans issues. The general public for the most part do not want to hear it. Transition or like I said earlier go out and live as female 10/7 and you will know exactly what I am taking about. My transition despite my personal loss of my marriage has been relatively easy compared to many.

And yes I have accomplished many things on my own. That's my personality. Should I have to modify that to suit anybody else. I have tremendous self confidence ( large reason I was able to live full-time for 18 months with male facial features before I could afford facial reconstruction). Money I worked damn hard to save.

[sometimes_miss]

Gay and lesbian rights were not won by those who stayed in the closet. They were won by being visible. Gays and lesbians had common aims and problems. I agree that TS and CD do share some common problems but the aims and needs of TS go beyond those of CDs. They go beyond because TS who have transitioned are visible whether they want to be or not. I am visible not from choice but from necessity. .
That's just it. Most of us see no advantage to being able to walk around in public crossdressed; women's clothing simply requires more attention than men's does, and heels, well that speaks for itself. Dressed in drab I suffer no persecution, feel quite safe, etc.. Gay, lesbian and TS rights are needed because all of them have been dealing with obvious prejudice that they cannot avoid. We can; and I look at it no differently than I see not freely walking around naked. I wear what 'does the job'. I don't routinely go out wearing clothes to 'make a statement'. If you feel the need to dress and be seen as female so strong that you need to do it all the time and in public, there's more going on than just the clothes.
To some degree, I think it's the novelty of just being able to do it. Like women, after a while you're going to go with what makes you most comfortable, and that won't include two hours of make up, hairstyling, etc. just to go do routine daily errands. Sure, women like to feel really glamorous and beautiful, but they don't want to go through that every day, fancy dresses, hairstyles, jewelry, heels, etc.. Neither will we.
In the meantime, I'll stay in the closet. It's a nice closet, and it has lots of my favorite things in it.

[flatlander_48]

You talk about advocacy and activism as that should be requisite of those transitioning. Yes there are some that for whatever circumstance are either thrust or make the conscious effort to be an activist. I have no desire to be an activist. I will not walk around with a sign around my neck. " Hi I Stephanie, I'm a transsexual ".

It isn't requisite, yet in effect, that's what you're doing.

Activism: a doctrine or practice that emphasizes direct vigorous action especially in support of or opposition to one side of a controversial issue.

Not saying that this is precisely what you do, but when you interact with people and your identity becomes known, there are similarities. All of a sudden, you're representing whether you want to or not. At that point, you put a face on what they think a transsexual is.


We are absolutely treated differently when we are perceived as female and when they figure we are Trans. Once outed being gendered as female becomes a crap shoot. Many times female pronouns are dropped and male pronouns become dominate.

Aside from a basic prejudice, which I think you would recognize, the only other possibility would seem to be lack of exposure and education.


You would not know that because you are male and interact as male.

Only anecdotally. However, it's sort of a moot point as I probably don't pass from less than 8'-10' anyway. Further, when I am dressed, I don't think I interact as male. I think I just interact. And you know, getting hit by a truck is not a prerequisite for reaching the understanding that it hurts like hell.


I have no desire to trade one closet for another. I know other Trans individuals that have transitioned and are for the most part assimilated into society as female. They sometimes feel they are in the closet for the fear of being outed. Maybe that will be my path in the future. Maybe not.

Have you considered that your transition now makes you a member of a minority group? That is a very different perspective on the world. Perhaps you have not experienced direct prejudice before and this is a very new situation. I don't know.


The best way to assimilate and be accepted is to not talk about Trans issues. The general public for the most part do not want to hear it. Transition or like I said earlier go out and live as female 10/7 and you will know exactly what I am taking about.

I don't doubt any of your experiences. My point is solely that the process of exposure goes much faster when there are more people, in good shape, out there doing it. If there are more people out there, then everybody becomes less of a novelty. The question then becomes how to get more people, in good shape, out there.

In part, this is where Caitlyn Jenner comes in.


And yes I have accomplished many things on my own. That's my personality. Should I have to modify that to suit anybody else.

No, everyone has a personality. However, certain male traits can act as an impediment to a more collaborative approach, as most females are socialized to do. So, if you are really going to assimilate as an average female, you may have to round off some of those corners. And yes, that is also a way in which people might come to the understanding that you are different.


I have tremendous self confidence ( large reason I was able to live full-time for 18 months with male facial features before I could afford facial reconstruction). Money I worked damn hard to save.

You have to do what you have to do. I just think that there may be easier ways to get to the same goal.

DeeAnn

[stefan37]

Then why don't you go out 24/7 and help change attitudes. It was not my choice to be born transsexual and it was not my choice to transition. There is no control over that. When it's your time, it's your time. I have no control over how people feel or react. I've been lucky, I can move around freely without undue attention. Unlike since of my friends. I have my experiences and whether you agree with them or not is not my concern. Its my life and I will live it as I see fit. Regardless of what anyone in the "Trans community" feels about it. If you were out and about 24/7 without the comfort of retreating back to male you might think differently.

Quite frankly I don't know why you want to argue with me how I live my life and how I want to, or don't want to interact with the "Trans community". You live yours the way you want. And let me live mine the way I want. Fair enough?

[flatlander_48]

s:

In October I will be in front of 200-250 people (mostly cisgender people, including some that I know personally) as DeeAnn. I will post details in the Upcoming Events section in late August/early September. Our entertainer for the evening will be Ian Harvie. Further, you have my personal invitation and it's free. All you have to do is get yourself here. Is that fair enough for you?

Anyway, your attitude surprised me. That was why I voiced the opinion that I did. I don't recall anyone else here saying that (the distancing yourself from the community part).

The way things stand for now, at my employer 24/7 is a one way street. I would have to be on the road to transitioning because there is no back and forth, but doing 24/7 is not how I identify. Never has been.

No, I wouldn't feel differently about my opinions if I were 24/7. It has to do with my opinions about how a community works and I suspect that it is something with which I have far more experience. And further, your understanding is incorrect. I do not retreat. I live 2 lives, but I do not retreat. You made an assumption based on your perceptions of what crossdressers are, but it is incorrect.

By all means, live as you choose. However, I would be saddened if yours was the prevailing attitude in the community.

Pleasant Dreams.

DeeAnn

[Sara Jessica]

Actually DeeAnn, Stephanie's POV is fairly common from what I have learned. There is nothing wrong with it, just as there is nothing wrong with staying connected with the trans community, whatever that might be. I have encountered both in my travels. These are simply decisions about how to live one's life after what is typically a difficult decision and/or experience to transition.

[flatlander_48]

It is what it is. But, if the idea is to gain acceptance, it seems to be the long road to town...

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

No, we are not two different people and that's often where there is a disconnect. We are not one person 8 to 5 and someone else the rest of the time. One's personal life effects one's professional life and vice-versa unless one is subject to schizophrenia. To attempt to maintain that separation is not good. That's a problem that lesbians, gays and bisexuals have continually faced because you cannot effectively separate your life like that. This is the point behind the phrase "Bring your whole self to work.". However, my reference was to reinforce the thought process behind advocacy and activism.

I'm sorry DeeAnn, but you're all over the place with your arguments and you backpeddle. You're the one who brought up "employee affinity groups" as a comparison for TSs mentoring others, not me. And yes, "employee" implies 9-5. As to separating the dressing into "female" and "male" mode which is what I think you are alluding to here, this was not at all what I suggested. Or course TSs are not "part-time" TSs. lol.

As to advocacy and activism, no one has the right to require this of anyone else, not even you.



As I said, please comment on what I write. I used the phrase: METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING. It was an example of relative numbers.

It's hard to have a conversation based on metaphors. It opens the way for everyone to have a different understanding of what is being discussed, which is what I think is happening here. It is best to be precise.

[Marcelle]

Wow . . . talk about a thread deviating from the intent and spiraling into an "us/them" rhetoric. Seriously, we all have our burdens to bear irrespective of where we fall on the spectrum (and sorry if I have offended anyone by lumping them into a group). We all make choices to do what we need to do to survive in this world. For some it requires total transition (medical and social) to align one's gender identity. For others it means hiding in the closet and stealing a minute or two in a dress in order to calm themselves. Not everyone is going to be a "poster child" for trans rights and some just want to exist in the world as they were meant to be. I can understand the need of those who are transitioning to distance themselves from the community if it helps them to fully integrate into society as the gender they need to be . . . that is their choice just as it the choice of those to be fully active once they transition or for the CDer to remain hidden at home deep in the closet. Folks, it is about choice and coming to terms with yourself, not degrees of what makes you more capable of claiming the "trans title" :facepalm:

I have recently accepted that I am "gender fluid" (and I am sure some here will say . . . hey you can't use that title as it means this . . . but it is all I have :)). The reality is, some days I identify as a woman and some days I identify as a man. Because I came out so openly in the military and have challenged the existing TG policy as not being inclusive enough, I have become an "accidental activist" of sorts. However, it was motivated by a need to have the right to express who I am. If it helps others after me then so be it and I am happy to "breach that gap" but that is where it ends for me. I will be quite visible at work and there will be no doubt I am a guy (the kid is not pretty and is not fooling anyone :battingeyelashes:). When I first realized I was TG I linked into the local trans community and at my first support group meetings I was set upon by a very angry TS individual who basically implied I knew nothing and should just stay at home because I was not pretty enough and it only draws attention to her :eek: . . . "Say what, not pretty enough and here I thought I looked like Charlize Theron". That was my first and last meeting I ever attended. Now I get she was not representative of the TS community but it did put me off and from that point, I just decided to socialize in the Vanilla world vice the community and that is where I have been since. I am not saying the community does not do great things in my local area (and they do) but again, my choice.

Now the one thing I will take exception with is the rhetoric that as a "part-timer" I get to run home to the safety of being male whenever the going gets tough. Okay folks let's frame this in a gender identity context, I identify both male and female and I am not running home to the safety of anything, I am presenting the gender which I have a deep need to present at a given point in time. If I identify female on a given day and am required to interact anywhere in public, I don't head for a bathroom decompile and come out as a dude to do my business. I cannot because I would feel incongruent at that time. As a woman, I have taken my vehicle to my mechanic who has known me as a guy for several years. Many of my work colleagues have seen me as both a man and a woman and soon I will start working as a woman on the days I need to identify as a woman. Believe me, there is no running home to the safety of being male once that "bell has been rung" . Do you think for a second any guy who has an issue with me is going to think "oh well, sometimes he is a man so that okay". No it is more likely . . . turn in your man card son because you were seen wearing a dress and make-up. When I took my "beat down" a few months back, nobody asked me if I was a "part-timer", they just attacked me.

Please, can we get off the "you will never understand" train. Yes, I get it there are things about other's existence we can never truly understand irrespective of where we fall on the continuum. I can no more understand what a TS member endures then they can understand what I endure on a day to day basis. Yes, you can understand the concept but not the context because we are each unique beings with our own baggage to deal with along with being TG. In the end there is no "right way" or "wrong way" to do what you need to do in life to survive . . . there is just "your way" and that may differ from "my way". However, the end result is the same . . . some sort of comfort/happiness/congruence or whatever you need to get you by in life. :)

Hugs

Isha

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i buy alot of what you are saying isha...
you should be proud and i hope you are

however steph and others are not claiming trans titles... others are imposing/projecting it on us, co opting our female identities and demanding we "fall in line"...

and what's more, there is no coherent, specific action being talked about by these people..they just want our lives on a platter to serve their ends.
and the idea of being out 24/7, living life authentically against all odds every day is not enough..
this is breathtakingly arrogant and ignorant...and then when there is push back, we get condescending platitudes
i call bs...sorry.... i stand by my comment...he/she simple does not understand..

(fwiw perhaps you don't care but i count you and most of the people in this discussion in the club of living authentically and honestly 24/7, i am thrilled for you and have read your posts with interest and hopefulness..kudos to you....)
and i would add you won't find me belittling or judging anybody's gender issue ..its really frustrating to get others insecurities and hang ups projected on my comments ...that's where trannier than thou comes from..not from me..it comes from them
god i wish i was less tranny than them

and you don't offend me by attempting to "include" me in a spectrum of gender... i hope i don't offend you by rejecting that. My simple statement on this is that i am no more or less on a gender spectrum with a crossdressing guy than any other guy...
thats why i reject the tg umbrella... it invalidates the men that dress for fun and are into it for clothes...they are just guys that like dressing...and it invalidates the women that live as women every moment
you are gender fluid, its no surprise you embrace the concept of the umbrella...it feels right to you because it is right for you..

[flatlander_48]

I'm sorry DeeAnn, but you're all over the place with your arguments and you backpeddle. You're the one who brought up "employee affinity groups" as a comparison for TSs mentoring others, not me. And yes, "employee" implies 9-5. As to separating the dressing into "female" and "male" mode which is what I think you are alluding to here, this was not at all what I suggested. Or course TSs are not "part-time" TSs. lol.

That's just silly. It is a parallel. It could apply to ANY support group situation. You're reading something in that I didn't say.

The quote was:

What I said was based on being involved with, and leading, employee affinity groups for the better part of 20 years. What I've seen happen sometimes is that people draw upon the resources of the group, get the benefit of advice and counsel, have doors opened and they progress without ever reaching back. So, those experiences that could be shared, that first-hand advice that could be given, etc. is lost. That does not help the community (speaking across any number of constituencies) or those who come afterwards.

What is so hard to understand about that? Are you saying that can't happen? You're trying to extrapolate to some place where you shouldn't.


As to advocacy and activism, no one has the right to require this of anyone else, not even you.

It's not a requirement. I don't think I said anything even close to relating to a requirement. What I said relates to what is lost if passing on experiences does not happen.


It's hard to have a conversation based on metaphors. It opens the way for everyone to have a different understanding of what is being discussed, which is what I think is happening here. It is best to be precise.

Metaphors are an integral part of how language is used. But, I'll rewrite it so you cannot come to any erroneous conclusions:

When you consider the number of cisgender people that you encounter in the world at large, for every person who comes out of transition in good shape (relatively), you have potentially doubled the number of impressions that you would have made by yourself. By not reaching back, you lose the potential multiplier of your own efforts. Simply put, this is how activism works. So, if the goal is to gain acceptance and eliminate the situations were people are referred to incorrectly, the asking of inappropriate questions, etc., is it better to have just s interacting with people or a bunch of other transsexuals in addition to s interacting with MANY people? This is not a trivialization of one's efforts; it is a reminder of how those efforts can be expanded.

You know, if you don't try to morph it into something it's not, it really is a simple concept.

DeeAnn

[Katey888]

I was trying to encourage everyone to stay on the point (briefly: Caitlyn Jenner and the validity of late transitioners and SRS) and NOT get drawn into semantics... again... :angry:

You all know darned well how the arguments about categories, umbrellas, your life, my life, etc. ends...

Get back to the point - accept that there are different opinions here (valid), different viewpoints (valid), different circumstances (valid) and try to add something new to the discussion... or go find a new discussion! :hmph:

Last chance...

Katey
Moderator

[Greenie]

Oh no Katey. People would rather drag each other through the mud. And be rude and condescending. Everyone is so powerful behind the power of their computer screen. Thanks for trying to jump back in and get the topic back on track. But it obviously wont happen.

:/

In regards to the OP. I wondered if my fiancee was "outing" himself a little as well with all the posts regarding Trans and Trans acceptance. And Whether or not I might be outing us. This is going to be a LONG post about the conversation that ensued due to Caitlyn.

I posted This little gem on my Facebook wall.


If you are posting hateful stuff about Caitlyn Jenner, I am unfriending you. I have no time for hatred or bigotry. Feel free to unfriend me if you are anti caitlyn. Fyi, who is Caitlyn Jenner NOT Bruce. By saying please call me Caitlyn it's now no longer acceptable to call her Bruce or He, unless she changes her mind, which she is the only one who is entitled to change that.

To which I got a couple amens and then someone from a local non profit commented basically that me being so stubborn to not be able to "see the other side" of the argument made me a bigot. There were many comments but most notable this


HER: I do find the conversation interesting, and can see it from both sides because I really do not feel any moral compunction either way. But that said, I am amazed at how many people will vehemently assert that other people must accept the view that transgender procedures are fine and acceptable, while refusing to extend the same acceptance of an opinion that does NOT agree with that procedure. To me, that seems as one-sided and close-minded as someone berating someone for promoting transgender situations.

If we are to promote acceptance, we must realize that acceptance goes both ways. If I expect someone to accept my view that Caitlin should feel positive about who she now is, then I must accept someone else's view to the contrary without feeling the need to label them hateful or mean. They simply have a different view than mine, and I can live with that peacefully.

I posted the recent article by Matt Walsh BECAUSE it did not easily align with what I personally would support...and my point has already been made on my own wall. Rather than folks asking, "Hey, can you clarify for me what you mean", I am receiving comments absolutely critical of "my position", though I did even not state my own position, I merely posted the article as a point of discussion.

How quickly we become judgmental in the process of telling people not to be judgmental. Just food for thought.

I was pissed. DAMN RIGHT I am JUDGMENTAL of HATRED AND BIGOTRY. Pissed that someone I considered a friend thought that way. And that they could assume that there is acceptance both ways. BOTH WAYS? Isn;t that acceptance and..... Not acceptace. No way in hell am I going to accept that other people think that trans people are gross. no way I am going to accept other people being disrespectful to another human being based upon their "Beliefs". That we should ACCEPT people who disagree with a fundamental part of who each of us is. Many of you being Trans, Me being bisexual, possibly pansexual. All of these things are WHO WE ARE. Someone who thinks that Cailtlyn Jenner is disgusting. IS HATEFUL AND MEAN. There is no other side to that for me? Is there for you all?

But I am privileged. I a a white cisgendered person. I have so much privlidge. BUT this lady. This lady took the fricken cake. White, religious, wealthy, cisgendered, straight. She never had to deal with a struggle her whole life.

To which the conversations finished like this


ME: I don't believe it's something anyone had the ability to agree or disagree with. It's not a choice. This is who someone is. No one else has the right to have an opinion on who someone else is. People who have grown up where their body matches their identity are privileged. As with any privilege they (myself included) will never understand what it's like to be in the wrong body. This isn't something that had sides, or opinions. I read a statistic that 1 in 2000 people a year are born intersex. That's more common than being jewish. A fact most people don't talk about when talking about gender issues. This is a way someone is born. Like their hair color, or skin color. No one has a right to have an opinion on those things, why this? That's like saying, if we promote black acceptance we need to realize the other side? Um.... no we don't.

P.s. you don't need to be inter sex to be trans. So before people misconstrue what I am saying... Which they will. Its just to highlight that there is a whole world people who have an opinion about this, dont even know. On another token, it also is common for those who are born intersex to be forced into a gender that possibly does not match their own. There are some studies showing that SOME people who identify of trans people who are born somewhere on the intersex spectrum. But if you look into research about genetics people are born this way. Its not to far of a stretch that all people of gender variations are born this way.
To be honest(Her name) this seems to me like when we used to think it was okay to enslave people by the color of their skin. Feeling power over another group of people, and power to alienate them, is wrong. Alienating them by talking about it like it's a choice is a step in the wrong direction.

HER: And...I am pretty sure that Caitlin opened the door for ll this attention by even doing the cover photo and article. No one forced that on her. So it appears that she does not mind the conversations swirling, and the thoughts and ideas that follow.

ME: I think attention versus discussion about legitimacy are different. Trans youth commit suicide everyday. If being on a cover of a magazine gives youth hope that they can survive this struggle, more power to them. If you watch the interview with Katie couric, Caitlyn, Bruce at the time, makes that important connection.

She then blocked me. So we were done..... But really, Like it or not. Caitlyn Jenner being public and in the media, give us these moments to educate people who would otherwise not have been educated. She opens the door for conversations that were only happening between those that were already enlightened before.


I also a couple days later posted about the "hero meme", it was the article in which the man realized (http://www.picmonkey.com/?skyscraper=1&utm_expid=54526581-12.TVqKZaxFSZGMzymDm3Q8RQ.1&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fl.facebook.com%2Flsr.php %3Fu%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fpicmonkey.com%252F%26ext %3D1427765862%26hash%3DAckiZC5M6oHLXXuUTzs2IBYA1jC zRdTDFhX1eSGwjU5uWw)he was wrong; To which I lost 5 more face book friends. Better off without them I think...


ME:What an interesting and Ironic way to be enlightened. Just because you call someone brave, doesn't mean you are negating the actions of another. Bravery is subjective. I think that the men and women who risk their lives for this country are very brave. I also think, becoming the person you were always supposed to be, in the wake of bigotry, hatred, judgement, fear and danger, is also bravery. The attached journal article is about the prevalence of suicide among LGBTQ people. http://www.tandfonline.com/…/…/10.1080/00918369.2011.534038…
Imagine how bigotry and hatred effects those that you don't realize. The snide comment on the bus or the online bullying. You never know if that toxic hatred is the reason that one more at risk LGBTQ person, decides to go home and end their life. Each and every LGBTQ person, who lives another day, in the face of these struggles, is brave. And every person who transitions, and speaks out on behalf of themselves and their counterparts, is braver still. And each person, who is "against" the idea, who takes the time to understand that being a trans-person, isn't a subject up for your opinion or debate, and realizes the error of their ways, and ADMITS it, like the man who wrote this article, is also brave. Bravery is subjective and pinning people against one another in a contest of Bravery, or beauty, wit, courage, intelligence or any other attribute, is demeaning. Especially for the sake of an argument, that shouldn't be taking place in the first place.

[jenni_xx]

Greenie, I would like to say that the facebook posts that you linked to were great.

One thing stuck in my mind though while reading your posts. And I couldn't shake the thought that I had. Namely, this comment:

"Fyi, who is Caitlyn Jenner NOT Bruce. By saying please call me Caitlyn it's now no longer acceptable to call her Bruce or He, unless she changes her mind, which she is the only one who is entitled to change that."

What stuck in my mind was just how much we (that's a collective "we") attempt to speak for other people. You are telling people that it is "now no longer acceptable call her Bruce or He", and that Caitlyn is the one who determines how she is now to be known.

My problem with that is that that is an ideal. Not a reality. We, as individuals, do not get to determine how we, as individuals are to be recognised as, referred to as. That is something that trans people know all too well. From making applications to have legal documents changed (such as a driving licence for example - we apply to have that changed, never ever can we DEMAND that such a change is made - if it is made, it is done so by an authority figure, not by ourselves.

All of us are part of a system, and it's that system, whether we like it or not, that determines, not who we are, but how we are identified.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

when people talk about things they dont understand they can argue their "opinion" is valid, but people that do understand know it has no standing or merit..
its like talking with somebody that claims 2+2=7..if i have the "right" to say 2+2 is four, they have the right to say its seven...its especially prevalent on social media which often brings out the worst in people IMO

its unfortunate in this case because so many people do not understand....i have found when people do understand (specifically with regards to transsexuals) they tend to be fine with it but also tend to shy away from the light because its challenging and uncomfortable.

the way around this is day by day and person by person real life contact...i tend to focus people on an easier thing to understand... that transsexuals suffer gender dysphoria to the point of suicide..what can be wrong with letting them do something that helps them want to live their lives?? some are so ignorant and hateful they begrudge this to us as if we are not human... its easy to say get them out of your life, don't listen to them etc...but their voice is loud and resonates with many that keep quiet..

it is a very very long slog for transsexuals.

Caitlyn has started many conversations...even if some of them lead to enlightened thinking its worth it and if it blew up some relationships its probably true those relationships were not authentic to begin with..

[Greenie]

My problem with that is that that is an ideal. Not a reality. We, as individuals, do not get to determine how we, as individuals are to be recognised as, referred to as. That is something that trans people know all too well. From making applications to have legal documents changed (such as a driving licence for example - we apply to have that changed, never ever can we DEMAND that such a change is made - if it is made, it is done so by an authority figure, not by ourselves.

All of us are part of a system, and it's that system, whether we like it or not, that determines, not who we are, but how we are identified.

I totally see your point. But just because it is not reality,. doesn't mean it shouldn't be that way. I truley believe that it is a basic human right to be able to self identify. And its okay to be misgendered. But when people misgender on purpose instead and out of disrespect. That is a problem. When Caitlyn came forward, very publicly, and said "call me Caitlyn." That is what we should do. And that is how she should be recognized. I mean.... Its what she wants to be called. We didn't tell Marilyn Monroe, that her birth name is Norma so that's what we are going to call you. We don't correct Jaime Foxx, Reese Witherspoon, Kat Denings, Lorde, etc etc.

Why then is it acceptable to think that Caitlyn cannot do the same. The same that we do for MANY other stars, famous people, friends and loved ones. Because Caitlyn is controversial. But everyone calls Chaz Bono Chaz instead of Chastity. We have allowed Cis-gendered people to be identified purely by their choice, and we have done it for other "less famous" trans people.

Just because its how the system works, doesn't mean it needs to stay tht way. Just like how there is Systematic and Structural Racism, there is an institutional oppression of Trans people. This is true but definitely not something I feel that we should succumb to, just because "its the way it is".

Freedom of speech, religion, slavery. Those were all ideals once too. We in fact DEMANDED the systematic change that abolished Slavery, and segregation. I feel like this is a situation in which we can do the same.

Does that make sense?

[jenni_xx]

We didn't tell Marilyn Monroe, that her birth name is Norma so that's what we are going to call you. We don't correct Jaime Foxx, Reese Witherspoon, Kat Denings, Lorde, etc etc.

That's a really good point and I hadn't thought about it that way.

I do think that it is acceptable that we do the same for Caitlyn, but the difference lies in the connotation behind such a change. It isn't Reginald Dwight asking to be known, henceforth, as Elton John. The reason for Bruce's name change is because it is a direct reflection of her change of gender.

I agree with you though - the system should change - we should be in control of how society is to address us as individuals. I'm completely with you on that. I didn't mean to imply that we should succumb to how it is, accept how it is, I merely meant to convey the way it actually is. I think it should change - I hope it does.

Your post made perfect sense by the way. Thanks for writing it and making me look at it from an angle I hadn't before.

[ReluctantDebutant]

I don't think people have that much of a problem calling Caitlyn Jenner Caitlyn from now on. I think the problem is that so many people have memories of Bruce Jenner. So much of Jenner's fame came from the past not only was she known as Bruce but she was a man. Video, documents, photos, and memory do not record a woman named Caitlyn Jenner winning the gold in the 1976 Olympics, being on a Wheaties box, being on TV and so forth. Elton John and Marilyn Monroe got their fame after they changed their names it is easy not to think of them as Reginald Dwight and Norma Jeane Mortenson. Now Imagine Reginald sticking with that name gaining the same fame and is just now deciding to be called Elton. Will fans remember seeing a Elton John concert in the late 70's or a Reginald Dwight concert? Memory is a hard thing to forget :D.

I think if Caitlyn was starting off fresh in the fame business, she probably would not have as much trouble putting her past life behind her.

[stefan37]

Changing your name is much easier and is accepted more readily than changing gender. After 2 years full-time, nobody uses my birth name. They use Stephanie and there is no misuse. Gender on the other hand is more problematic. I get misgendered a fair amount of time. And once someone uses the wrong pronoun. Others will sometimes follow suit. A major reason TS will move after transition. Caitlyn doesn't have that luxury. Being a huge celebrity athlete she is in the spotlight and cannot hide no matter where she goes.
Were Caitlyn to come out as gay. There would be some commotion and it would go away rather quickly also. Now she is the butt of many jokes. Especially late night vista. There was a picture today of Caitlyn lounging on a couch. And a dog with a confused look on his face saying
" I'm confused, I smell balls ". Apparently from the guffaws and lol's this was hilarious to many. I try not to take my transition too seriously, but many times the humor is not humorous but hurtful.

[Krisi]

Yes, I saw that picture on Facebook. Also one of her with a dog captioned "Bruce Jenner's cat". It can't be helped. They are also making fun of the white woman who has been claiming she is black and working for the NAACP.

[flatlander_48]

I think if Caitlyn was starting off fresh in the fame business, she probably would not have as much trouble putting her past life behind her.

Of the people who come to mind that have transitioned, some did have notoriety in their former lives. Specifically, I'm speaking of Chaz Bono, Lana Wachowski and Wendy Carlos. However, their notoriety was nothing like that of Bruce Jenner.

That brings up a question:

Had anyone else with a similar degree of celebrity transitioned? I don't recall anyone else.



There was a picture today of Caitlyn lounging on a couch. And a dog with a confused look on his face saying " I'm confused, I smell balls ".

To call that spohomoric would imply an upgrade...

DeeAnn

[Tina_gm]

Just like every point of time in history where there is a real movement for added rights or acceptance, it will come with a lot of rough times. Take the suffrage movement. Famous women like Susan B. Anthony. How long did this take and to what hardships did these women go through to finally win basic rights like voting rights? This did not happen over night, and it came with tremendous hardship of all those who participated. Oddly, it was even many women who were also against them.

My point in all of that is that Caitlynn will be breaking ground. She may be freeing herself of her gender identity, but sadly, the last 20 or so years of her life will not be filled with a complete loving peace from all of society. The haters have and will come out strongly. I have already seen so much of this, and it is sad. Caitlynn will be a tremendous help to transgender causes but will also sadly be a bit of a polarizing figure as well. Just as all those before her have been.

Not that we should not fully stand behind her, we should. In the end, it will bring us closer to having rights and respect that many minorities are now in the process of getting yet once did not have. Now it is beginning to be our turn to come to the table and get these rights and respect. They won't be passed to us easily though.

[flatlander_48]

Unfortunately, I think it is necessary to have polarizing figures. It forces people to figure where things sit for them. It will also tend to flush out those silent haters. The vocal ones are obvious, but the silent ones are harder to find until they just can't stand it any more and have to say or do something.

DeeAnn

[DonnaT]

That brings up a question:

Had anyone else with a similar degree of celebrity transitioned? I don't recall anyone else.

Renée Richards had the most celebrity status prior to Caitlyn Jenner. There have been other athletes who have transitioned, but none competed in the Olympics/

[flatlander_48]

Still though, he didn't have anywhere the degree of norotiety that Jenner had beforehand...

DeeAnn

[ChristinaK]

I admire Caitlyn for her courage to out herself to the world. It must have been a very difficult thing to decide upon. She is honest with herself and those around her. She feels like she must be honest with the world because it is important to her to demonstrate to the world that we exist, are legitimate citizens of the world and are not slobbering perverts lurking in the shadows searching for an opportunity to do society some type of perceived harm.

Every time I pass a news stand and see her on the cover it makes me smile.