Caitlyn Jenner raising the bar for passing

[Michelle789]

I've been on HRT for a little over 10 months now. I see my face softening up nicely, and my breasts are growing. I noticed that it seemed as though I am passing much better. I found that I seemed to consistently be gendered properly and mis-gendered less and less over the past 10 months. In fact, from February through April, I was not mis-gendered a single time. I got mis-gendered once or twice during May. Once June arrived, so did the gloom. It's a joke, we have a weather phenomena in L.A. called "June Gloom" where the weather is very overcast for the month of June.

All jokes aside, the real gloom isn't the overcast weather. The real gloom is I have been consistently mis-gendered by strangers since the start of this month, and it coincides with the coming out of Caitlyn Jenner. For the record, I have also been very sick since late April with bronchitis and an annoying cough that just won't go away.

So it makes me wonder, does Caitlyn Jenner's coming out now raise the bar of what it takes to pass? Could what was once considered passable no longer be passable? Now I probably will have to wait another 10 months or even get FFS in order to pass. Remembering that passability is a spectrum not a black and white. It's like I was maybe 80% passable and now I moved to 20% passable with Jenner coming out. And now you had better be 98% passable - 97% could still get you clocked. Or could there be another reason I am getting mis-gendered.

The only strangers who gendered me properly were the people working at the farmer's market on Monday, and the farmers probably aren't watching too much reality TV or news to even be aware of Jenner.

On a side note, sometimes I feel like I'll never pass, it's kinda depressing. I also fear that Jenner's coming out has done more harm than good for our community.

Yeah, I know, just another Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner thread. I posted a thread on the TS forum about Jenner raising the bar for passability.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?228633-Caitlyn-Jenner-raising-the-bar-for-passing

I notice that I seem to be getting mis-gendered pretty consistently since June 1 when Caitlyn came out, while I had been consistently gendered properly in the months leading up to her coming out. You would think that being on HRT for 10 months would improve passability. But this raises another question.

Could Jenner's coming out actually be doing us more harm? Now that people have seen Caitlyn Jenner, for one thing people know what to look for in order to clock us. And there are enough transphobes out there who have been really riled up by Jenner's coming out that they will make it known to us, be it mis-gendering us, mocking us, laughing at us, or even worse, physical violence towards.

I think that there are a few reasons why Caitlyn Jenner's coming out might do us more harm than good, as mentioned on some of the other Jenner threads.

1. Hundreds of millions of male egos have been deflated. Now most men who spot a trans person will, at the very best, mis-gender us. At the very worst, they could harass us, murder us, beat us, deny us employment, fire us from our jobs, or anything else.

2. Women feel threatened by us too. Now women just see us as a bunch of perverts who want to invade women's spaces, or are trying to be a fetishized image of what a man wants a woman to be. This is one thing that a lot of the trans community has trouble with Jenner. Now this images could be getting projected onto the entire trans community.

3. Religious fundamentalists of both genders have their own agendas too. But I think aside from religious fundamentalism, there is something deeper than religious beliefs causing most people to be uncomfortable with us. It's either deflated male egos, women feeling we're a bunch of perverts, or both genders being jealous of us for being authentic while they are stuck living miserable lives. Either way, I see that lots of people of both sexes have become more uncomfortable around us than they used to be.


Could this mean hard times ahead for our community? Could we expect to see a spike in transgender murders in the coming months. Will more of us suddenly lose our jobs in the coming months? Will those of us who needs jobs have an even harder time than ever trying to find work because of being trans? After being mis-gendered so consistently lately after seemingly passing so well for months, I seriously wonder if Caitlyn Jenner's coming out is doing us more harm than good. I also wonder this based on some of the responses I saw on earlier threads too.

[Dawn cd]

Jenner had the full talent of a high-end makeup studio, an ace photographer with elaborate lighting, and the full services of a magazine's computer design department. These people could make Dick Cheney passable.

Don't throw in the towel yet.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

I think that as is always the case with life there are good and bad consequences when anyone makes their personal decisions public. You seem to be very focused on the negative because you are afraid of how it affects you. That is perfectly normal, but not should not be generalized to the whole TG community. Your three reasons for Caitlyn's coming out being harmful are ones we have always had to deal with. The volume is up because of the celebrity factor, but that will diminish when the next shiny object comes along. I definitely don't think people are jealous of our "authenticity" when most people have plenty of their own.

I believe there has been much that is positive in Caitlyn's story. People are talking about transgenderism and when people talk there is an opportunity to grow. It is our responsibility to speak up for ourselves if we are ever going to change people's minds. Without our voices the vacume will be filled by the noise of the ignorant, the bigoted and the hateful. Caitlyn is having her say. We should be supportive rather than critical of her efforts.

Bridget

[Eryn]

Jenner has certainly raised public consciousness of our presence, but I can't see this as a bad thing. I'm less passable than Michelle and seldom get misgendered either BC (Before Caitlyn) or AB (After Bruce). There will always be ignorant cads out there and luckily their awareness of us will fade as something else will soon occupy their limited consciousnesses.

[AngelaYVR]

I'll take my chances.

[Lorileah]

you really think men are now scared of CDs? You really think women will hate us? You think that TGs somehow have any bearing over non-TGs feelings of gender or sexuality?

You people have a strange idea of the world.

If all you say is true, it would have happened when Chaz Bono transitioned...

[PaulaQ]

This is satire, right?

[AllieSF]

I agree with Bridget. I also think that maybe you are reading way too much into all this. I haven't had any problems yet, have not been mis-gendered and am still enjoying life.

[PaulaQ]

Those of us who do advocacy work always stress "passing doesn't matter."

Now I know it does to individuals - it certainly does to me. But society needs to learn that cisnormative beauty standards just can't be used as a basis for discrimination. (By the way it's really stupid that it matters to me - since I tell everyone "hey, I'm trans!")

Keep in mind that Jenner has been on and off hormones since the 1980's, and you've been on them for only 10 months.

Also keep in mind that some of us will never really pass. I have a friend. She's beautiful. Blonde. Willowy. Slender. Gorgeous face, nice figure. There's just one reason she doesn't pass - she's 6' 7" tall - in flats. My roommate is quite nice looking. She has a nice face, amazing legs - and she's 6' 2", and built like a professional athlete, which she in fact was.

You're 10 months in, hon. You're doing great. This stuff is slow and it just takes time. Don't sweat it.

[Marcelle]

Hi Michelle,

I don't see an increase in odd looks, sniggers, guffaws or finger points when out. Those things have always been there and will always be there until the human race can finally achieve emotional maturity which given our history will most likely be long after I shuffle off this mortal coil.

Hugs

Isha

[ChristinaK]

I think most people have not paid much attention to the issue and like Bridget said, the next shiny object will come along.

Overall, my opinion is that it has been beneficial. Bruce was considered a macho athlete. It could be anybody, not just a momma's boy. I know that I have had to reassure my wife that I don't want to transition like Bruce did.

Caitlin's story can open up conversation about us that many people have not considered and come to the conclusion that we're not just perverts, which my own wife has called me.

Yes, there will be those that are threatened by the issue, as I have already heard on talk radio relating to how ISIS see's this sort of thing as a reason to prove they're correct in their beliefs and how we drive people to join their cause. And, there could be some truth to that issue. Certainly ISIS would love to throw us off a building.

Overall, people like Caitlin tend to normalize the issue and provoke thought. Even if people clock me and think I'm a copycat, that's better than thinking I'm a pervert.

I don't think muggles will ever fully understand, but if the tolerance increases I'm okay with that.

[Kate Simmons]

The Media exposure is a classic example of an idea or agenda being thrust down people's throats in a "sugar coated" way. The Media doesn't really care about any of us or who we are as people, just the sensationalism associated with it to sell papers and magazines. Just being ourselves as people is the better way to show others who we are.:)

[arbon]

I don't think Caitlyn changes anything in this regard.

"passing" can impact the quality of your life. The more you look and come across to others like a guy the more you will be treated that way. I think it depends on where you want to be in your own life.

Edit: I should note that in my home town I do not pass because too many people knew me there from before transition and it is well known I am trans, so it is also and issue of your past.

[Claire Cook]

I agree with Bridget. I also think that maybe you are reading way too much into all this. I haven't had any problems yet, have not been mis-gendered and am still enjoying life.

... and I agree with both of you, and all of the above responses.

[deebra]

Michelle, look at it this way, the more you expose something to the public, they learn and get use to it and it becomes less of a threat. That said wouldn't it be better for us if a lot more males started "coming out" and adding and wearing fem clothing for the public to see. It could be just girl jeans or sandels or a little makeup; earrings and long hair are already accepted in males.

What would really help us is if the designers and manufacturers started a new trend for the soft and sexy look in male clothing. That is soft colorful slip over tops, jeans cut tight and form fitting like girls, shorts that are short and not below the knee, bikini swim suits, etc. If they would launch this as the latest swing in fashion design and convince women there men would look sexy in the new unisex clothing it just might make acceptance quicker. Yea, I'm holding my breath on them doing that; so if you don't hear from me *%&#

[Mollyanne]

For my 2 cents worth, from reading your post concerning Caitlyn and her "coming out" I personally think you went WAY OVER THE TOP!!!!!! All that you say that could happen, happens already!!!!!! Next week all this will disappear onto the back page and something else will take its place. Me personally, I give Caitlyn a lot of credit and would switch places with her in a "New York minute". If you remember, there was a British model named Tula, she transitioned and there was a lot of talk about a transgendered model "invading and disrupting the fashion model industry. That BS only lasted three whole days and then it disappeared. If I remember correctly, she is now married.

If EVERYBODY would just stop and accept would Caitlyn did as her own choice all things considered it would just go away.

Molly

[flatlander_48]

Personally, I would never want to deny someone the freedom to transition, regardless of any consequences for the community at large, if that is what they needed to do. And everything that we have heard and read about Caitlyn Jenner would certainly indicate that she had been holding back for a long time. Further, the vast majority of well known people who have transitioned had greater notoriety AFTER they transitioned. Bruce Jenner is rare in that he has been exceedingly famous for a LONG time before Caitlyn ever came along. This was NEVER going to be a quiet, low key deal anyway, so it doesn't make sense to entertain that thought.

DeeAnn

[emma5410]

I am sorry but I do not understand how it makes a difference. To pass means that people look at you and see a woman. How does that change because of Caitlyn Jenner?
I would say that people may expect transsexuals to look as good as her and not realise that many people do not have her advantages. It is noticeable that all the 'faces' of transsexuals in the media are attractive. Would they be getting the same positive response if they were not.

[Beth-Lock]

So it makes me wonder, does Caitlyn Jenner's coming out now raise the bar of what it takes to pass?
.

It does if you are a Kardashian or a celebrity trying to compete head-on with the Kardashians for this sort of publicity. That is all.

And, about being misgendered, my problem with that is my manner, and that is behavioural. I talk and think too much like a male still. You have to adopt a gracious cheerfulness, and a sort of casual, non-serious manner. A little up-talk also helps, (raising the tone/pitch of your voice at the end of a sentence). Women use different words for the same thing, from those used by men. If you think all that is overdoing it and not politically correct, remember we are trying to create a sort of illusion, and being more femme than born femmes is just part of the way it is done, or at least a short cut to it. .Think of it as an initiation rite, that eventually you will get past, and stop. That is a large part of what is meant by the saying, "The real transition only begins post-op." That means it goes on and on, not that it did not start very long ago, in your past, perhaps even before you transitioned too.

[bimini1]

There could be some of what you're talking about going on. And I do agree with what someone said about media pushing it down people's throats (I get this from my mom all the time, what you do is what you but why do I have to keep hearing and seeing about it).

But I think some of it is your own perspective changing. We see the world how we see it to us. Two people can look at a situation and come away from it with two totally different perspectives. I learned years ago when you change the way you look at something, what you are looking at changes.

[gonegirl]

.... remember we are trying to create a sort of illusion, and being more femme than born femmes is just part of the way it is done, or at least a short cut to it.


This quote is from the post above, which is so packed full of bizzare thinking that my head is spinning.... and my heart is sinking.... Apart from the obvious issue with the concrpt that being female is about acting "femme", If someone does all that to create an "illusion" of being female they will come off as a bad parody of a woman. If this is what being a woman is all about to some people, then it's no wonder that society largely thinks non cis people are freaks. Sheesh...

[PretzelGirl]

Now I know it does to individuals - it certainly does to me. But society needs to learn that cisnormative beauty standards just can't be used as a basis for discrimination. (By the way it's really stupid that it matters to me - since I tell everyone "hey, I'm trans!")

Paula, I don't know if you are in the same line of thinking as I am. But if I am lucky enough to be there, telling people I am trans* when I want to and not having it in the discussion otherwise is part of controlling the message to me. It makes life feel more in control instead of being at the whim of what everyone else is thinking.

[Frances]

Since Jenner is a public figure, she technically cannot pass and does not have to. The photos are impressive, but many avatars in this site are as well. She has not changed her voice at all. Most people pass, even ones that don't look as good as Jenner, if they are meeting people who did not know them before. I know lots of people who had no FFS and have no trouble passing 100% of the time. Not having a TV show helps.

[Stephanie Sometimes]

Nonsense. All the overblown media coverage of Caitlyn Jenner will be a good thing for us. It has dramatically raised awareness and interest in transgender issues and that will benefit transgender folks especially in the long run. Maybe there will be an increase in the incidence of bigots expressing their outrage at what they consider to be a weakness or perversion. But you know what, in recent decades, those bigots have had to get used to and to accept having neighbors who were of a different race, of mixed race couples, of unwed parents, of homosexuals, and all manner of people with different orientations or lifestyles. And they will eventually have to accept transgender people. It's happening and the Caitlyn story is helping.

Stephanie

[Jenniferathome]

... Now that people have seen Caitlyn Jenner, for one thing people know what to look for in order to clock us. ...

Every human on earth over the age of about 5 already knows the millions of subtle visual differences between male and female. Jenner has zero impact on that.

Regarding you nonsensical thoughts on all the bad things that could happen now, again, Jenner has nothing to do with that. Today is no different than yesterday or last month or last year.... Awareness can only help.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i think there is a quality of life issue related to whether you truly pass or not...
some are just blessed naturally, others are blessed financially and can pass..others are going to suffer misgendering quite alot.

CJenner has kind of highlighted to people that we exist, so it does make some sense that a person that doesn't really pass well gets noticed more.

there is no way around the fairness/unfairness of it. it is what it is...

i have been on both sides of the fence on this..i spent the first part of RLE totally not passing, and FFS changed that .....i wish FFS was paid for by insurance because personally i found it just as validating to me as SRS..

getting my femaleness reflected back at me socially was a boost to my life quality...i'm far from pretty but i am blessed to be gendered correctly.

Michelle i think what you are experiencing is a real thing... all you can do is consider how it impacts you and your goals in your transition... the ladies are right...it is very very very early for you... your appearance will very slowly adjust from just hrt and your ability to look the way you want will constantly improve bit by bit... as you consider your transition goals you must be realistic about everything if you want to feel good about the outcome..

some people have forfeited transition because they can't pass.. that's a huge shame ...it is understandable though if you feel you can't improve your quality of life to actually transition...

if you find this is on your mind, try to think of what really matters

is your quality of life better??
does passing/not passing change your quality of life?

yikes michelle...

i read your note is the other forum as feeling personally nervous because you were being misgendered recently but i have to say the way you brought it up here is so far off the mark i don't know what to think...

i couldn't disagree more with what you are saying, and its irrelevant anyway... Caitlyn gets to live her life just as much as anybody else

[I Am Paula]

Two totally absurd Caitlyn Jenner posts running at once.
It's our own membership that's losing it's mind, not the fundamentalists.

[stefan37]

I lived full time over 1.5 years without the benefit of ffs. Being gendered female was hit and miss. I tended to be gender female more often when dressed casually or jeans and Tee shirts. Wearing a dress I was gendered male as often as female. I took that experience and worked even harder to work in those things that gendered me male. I don't now and didn't them wear any wig or piece other than what I have. (Having female type hair is a huge benefit and I wish I would have listened to my own advice). I can remember eating dinner at a function wearing a dress, heels, full makeup. A waitress came up behind me and said excuse me ma'am. All I did was turn around and she exclaimed "oh! In sorry sir. I am glad I lived for the time I did without the benefit of ffs.

I had ffs in Nov. It introduced a whole new comfort level. I now get gendered female almost always. When I am not it is usually some other male cue that outs me. 2.5 years of hormones didn't really help much in the facial dept.

I will agree that jenners outing had cast a spotlight on us and people are more aware of our presence than before. Must another obstacle to overcome. It's a much easier obstacle than some others I've had to call with.

I heard from others that transition truly starts after post-op. I don't buy that argument. I'm sure it's different as all the anticipation is finally over and you are left with, Well what's next. I know many that for whatever reason or another they are either not getting SRS or for health reasons can not. For them transition has become their life and they live their lives as woman. Transition truly starts when one lives as female 24/7. Doing whatever is necessary to shed male priveledge, and integrate as female much as possible. I am thinking after SRS may experience some modicum is transcendence. But until that time I will do whatever I need or can to integrate as female as best I can.

[Melissa Rose]

Wow. Michelle, you may be projecting your own fears onto the community as a whole and it is coloring your perception. The recent bout with verbal misgendering could be a random spike in occurrences just as much as the previous lack of verbal misgendering could be a random dip in occurrences. Confirmational bias can be strong force. Your fear of the possible negative outcomes of Caitlyn's coming out could be influencing what you see and how it is interpreted. I think your premise and predictions are quite wrong and off base. Based on my and others experiences, there does not appear to be any spike in hate speech or crimes against transgender individuals.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

stephan you mentioned

"whats next" and "transcendance"...
having gone through it i'd say its a little bit of both... the transcendance lasts a very short time.....

the what's next part is what i personally beleive is what people are talking about....

"prior to" its almost all about the goal, the plan, the execution of the plan and achieving your objective...
it takes a huge amount of emotional and physical energy to do this... and we don't get any medals for it..

afterwards you are spent... you are vulnerable...you are still possibly isolated...and now what?? well you get the grand prize... a life that you can feel....
but when you really start feeling look out...

at some point we all hit a point where its "enough is enough" with the journey... that can kind of happen at any point, and in some ways that's when transition really begins...
i think for many its post srs because its such a powerful part of so many transitions...

i felt this feeling twice... after ffs, then again after srs... more powerfully after srs but i think that's more because the "what's next" was truly there for me

[becky77]

I can't see how Caitlyn Jenner affects others passing?
If you pass no one knows to make the connection. If you don't pass how can that be Caitlyns fault?

[Nigella]

I think that if you look to others to set your standards of "passing" you are going to fail. What is it to pass? Who sets the standard?

My personal experience of passing is simple, I go out, do what I need to do and get on with my life. Do I pass? You bet I do, but yesterday, whilst on the phone I was "sir'ed", but it did not spoil my day, the person on the other end did not know me from Adam, worked on the only clue they had, my voice, and gendered me according to what they perceive to be correct. Did I correct them, hell no, it was no Biggie.

Get away from the idea of someone else setting YOUR standard of passing, it will not help you in the long term, do what you need to do for YOU, not others.

[Melissa Rose]

How and why does Caitlyn's "passability" have anything to do with how well others pass? If those with media exposure set the passing bar, what is the impact of others such as, but not only, Andreja Pejic, Candis Cayne or Laverne Cox have? So does the "prettiest" transwoman set the bar? The OP's logic is fractured at best and she may be projecting her own insecurities and fears.

[Jennifer in CO]

The only issue with Caitlyn coming out is my wife. She is certain I am now going to transition back to female in the near future. With her being post-menopausal, I am sure I have more estrogen in my system than she does but thats a different story...:D

[UNDERDRESSER]

What would really help us is if the designers and manufacturers started a new trend for the soft and sexy look in male clothing. That is soft colorful slip over tops, jeans cut tight and form fitting like girls, shorts that are short and not below the knee, bikini swim suits, etc. If they would launch this as the latest swing in fashion design and convince women there men would look sexy in the new unisex clothing it just might make acceptance quicker. Yea, I'm holding my breath on them doing that; so if you don't hear from me *%&#That's why I'm not waiting. First girl shorts, now skirts, plain ones, then fancier stuff, then some opaque hosiery when Winter comes back around.

Michelle, while I was out yesterday, I noticed more people clocking the skirt. Why? have no idea. Maybe different location, maybe a change in sunspots, who knows? One of my off and on customers is transsexual, I remember that she went through phases in her transition, where her masculinity seemed to peep out more, couldn't actually tell you what it was, just that it was more visible some days than others. Sort of how a growing child gets different growth spurts, some days they look extremely skinny for their height, other days not. Maybe something like that is occurring?

To be honest, I haven't been following the Caitlyn story, and haven't heard any conversations about her. I don't even know who Bruce Jenner was.

[DebbieL]

Keep in mind that Jenner has been taking hormones for years, including years ago, and has had FFS and has finished electrolysis (I would guess his hair was too light for laser).
He also had his daughters making styling decisions, had make-up and wardrobe, then professional make-up, and a professional photographer.
I'm sure the photographer took dozens of pictures and many did not work well. Only the best of 100 or so pictures were chosen.

Caitlyn was under some intense pressure. After a very public career as Olympic athlete, motivational speaker, step-father of the Kardashians, business developer and manager of the K brands for everything from purses to perfumes.
t
Then his appearance as Bruce in the Diane Sawyer interview as well as on the series, provided a great deal of publicity for the transition. Pretty much anything other than looking like a Kardashian would have left the public with the classic image of the ugly guy in a dress, more like a cross-dresser than a beautiful woman inside and out.

The Vanity Fair spread was a good strategy because you have Caitlyn as a 65 year old woman looking beautiful and even sexy, with not much hidden, and a beautiful layout and interview inside.

Back to reality. Jenner has been out and about as Caitlyn for years now, and doesn't even get noticed by the press when she is out as Caitlyn. She dresses to blend, not to "pass" by being too beautiful.

if Caitlyn went out in public looking like she does in the magazine spreads, exposing too much, or dressing in ways that are inappropriate for her age, weight, size, and situation, she would have gotten major press coverage years ago.

There will always be narrow-minded and willfully uninformed bigots who will spew judgement and hate no matter what we do. The biggest good thing to come from the Jenner transition is that millions of people are learning a LOT more about what it is to be transgender, what it is to have to hide and keep the secret, and what it is to transition. The Diane Sawyer interview covers a LOT of the most common misconceptions, pointing out the differences between gender identity and gender preference, between sex as designated at birth, and gender which often involves more than just the mind.

Since the first interview, a number of people have come up to me to ask me a lot more questions. I've shared my experience and shared some of my observations and a historical perspective. Most of us who were born in the 1950s and 1960s had to deal with a medical community that knew that "transsexuals" had very high suicide rates, but they treated it as a psychosis, usually a combination of depression and a delusion that they were women when their genitalia was male.

Freud was so familiar with transgender FtM women who, even though they could not transition, wanted to be men, that he decided that "Penis Envy" was a mild neurosis common to women, because they wanted the power and privileges that were only available to men at the time he was doing his research.

Both Kinsey and Benjamin realized that there was a broad spectrum, Kinsey rating gender preference from 0 (exclusively straight) to 6 (exclusively heterosexual), and found that MOST people were in the 2-4 range with the median at around 2.5. Benjamin created a similar scale for gender identity from 0 - cis-gender to 6 - "Transsexual - MUST transition". Even in the earliest studies, Benjamin was shocked at the suicide rates among those who severely transgender - in the 5 to 6 range. He was also surprised at how much happier, healthier, more productive, and more functional the type six people were when they were able to live authentically. Even before starting HRT, those in the 5-6 range were happier when they could just function as their true selves. HRT improved the situation for both trans-men and trans-women.

The Diane Sawyer interviews did point out the high suicide rates. During the Kardashian episodes where Bruce came out to his family, there were public service announcements that pointed out that 160,000 kids miss school every DAY because of bullying. If you recognize that kids have to get a minimum number of days of school to go to the next grade, that means the number being bullied could be 5-20 times that number, over 1 million kids. And many of those kids miss school because they have been injured, hospitalized, or have stress-related illnesses such as asthma, epilepsy, nausea, and headaches.

I remember many times coming home crying to my mom, but she didn't realize how bad the attack was until I took a bath and she came in to wash my back. That's when she would see the bruises - from my ankles to my shoulders and wrists. Even harder was when she had to take me to the hospital for asthma attacks and the doctors would do the physical for the intake and seen the bruises. There were many times when they would ask if my parents hurt me. i would say "No, they don't even spank me, this is from the boys at school".

That's a story that Jenner may never tell.

[CONSUELO]

We seem to be in danger of some deranged psychosis. Caitlyn's coming out will likely have a positive effect overall though it will provide fodder for the bigots and sniggering classes for a while. I overheard a conversation about "Bruce" just yesterday evening and from the scraps of conversation it was obvious that people were making jokes.

Many decades ago I was a grad student at a very famous California university and one of my fellow students decided to transition. A requirement was that she present as female for a year before any operation. So Diane turned up one day as a female and continued to work as a teaching assistant. Everyone accepted her and nobody harassed her but there were lots of private jokes as people tried to come to terms with something that they had never encountered before. In time it all smoothed out and she went on to a successful career as a college professor.

I think some of that is happening now as people with little or no knowledge of TG issues are struggling with this, for them, strange and completely novel thing.

STAY CALM AND CARRY ON!

[melanie206]

Wean yourself off trashy media and you'll begin to appreciate what's really going on in the world.

[Inna]

ahh, ever harsh topic of passing.

Reality hurts.
Until wholeness of presentation falls within the aspect of behavior, visual integration, and speech, so called passing isn't achieved.
Passing 99% isn't really passing, but mere getting close to the ever so illusive holy grail of embodiment.

Yes, being a woman and being taken, interacted with, and treated as one is quite wonderful and fulfilling.
And it is an integral part of graduating to reality of reaffirmation of self in the birth gender.

Passing is mimicking, knowing of self is being!!!

However, such level of congruency often needs extremes of dedication and unfortunately, funds necessary for at least a very good FFS work.

This world, or to be exact some of the more liberal thinking areas are getting aboard to recognize that not all flesh translates to stereotypical view of self.
We are getting there slowly.

For those who despite the forward thinking environment cant take anything other then absolute of visual representation of true self, need to arm them selves in strength to warrior forward in pursuit of full embodiment of womanliness despite the cost, both financial and that of immense determination.

[CarlaWestin]

I'm a little uncomfortable as a CD commenting in the transsexual forum about passing so, with all due respect:

I have found the Jenner story interesting and exciting. It's like when you buy a lottery ticket and briefly fantasize about what you'll do with the wealth. And, my wife voiced her concerns and fears about my possibly wanting to transition. I reassure her that I am just a man that loves to emulate female. So, while watching Caitlyn's journey unfold in the media I briefly envisioned a million dollars falling my way and tracking down the best Beverly Hills surgeons and everything else involved. Why? If I put some effort into it I can pass just fine at the same distance Ms. Jenner has paid $$$ for. And, if folks are just thinking about the passing thing, Then go join up with the morons that have been comparing apples to oranges on social media lately. And, what I get out of the whole thing is CJ is now just happy. And, there ain't nothing wrong with gettin' happy with yourself.


Wean yourself off trashy media and you'll begin to appreciate what's really going on in the world.

Or just look at it for what it is. Entertainment for the common folk to sell advertising.

[JohnH]

Michelle,

I also agree give the HRT more time. I consistently get read as a woman but then I have been on M2F HRT for almost 4 years. It does take time for the HRT to make the changes.

John

[Dana44]

Michelle, I think that it will go with the wind, a few months from now and nobody will remember. I do not think people in general have the nearsighted views of perverts or invasion. When I go out, yeah maybe people see through me and Identify my gender. Yet they keep their manners and say mam at restaurants and such. The movie theaters have kids working there and I think they get a kick out of identifying us, yet they called me mam which leads me to believe that there are a lot of fair and good people out there. You know, on sites where they have the strollers that spits filth, Yeah those who do the most talking have the very same issues that they are defying. They are probably scared that they may be identified. They are probably not far along in life that they haven't mellowed to live and let live. Their venom scares us. But that is not the typical people. As a whole I think that society in general has observed and identified many of us and accept us for what we are. The Caitylin spark will pass into the night.

[PaulaQ]

I know being misgendered sucks. But if this is happening with random people, you need to understand that really, they are doing you a favor. You should not ever HAVE to pass. However, there are situations, really dangerous situations, like visiting small, racist, homophobic, transphobic towns in Oklahoma that you'd want to avoid unless you do pass. So being misgendered is a much gentler way to find out "I didn't pass" than a beating. It's easy to lose sight of this in a town like LA, or even Dallas, where the risks are relatively low. But outside of the big metropolitan areas, some of us are at real risk.

My advice is to try to honestly look at why you aren't passing. A big part of it may be the relatively short time you've been on HRT. Another part may be your voice, or they way you move or act. Passing is about a bunch of often subtle things. Maybe your beard cover wasn't as good that day. Maybe you just need more laser hair removal. Try to be objective about this, and see if you can find patterns in things you've done differently on days when you do seem to pass, and days when you don't.

Also, you have to be careful not to count the folks who know you, and are kind and don't misgender you. We love these people - or at least I do - but they are useless for feedback. They are sweet, they are well meaning, and they are just too nice to be helpful.

Again, though, there is no reason you have to pass. I generally don't worry about it - I am out in a very public way at this point. I'd worry about it in Podunk Texas, or Redneck Oklahoma. Until you do pass consistently, I'd avoid places like that. But you live in LA, so hey, it may suck sometimes, but it's a lot less likely to be life threatening that you don't pass.

I'm not trying to minimize this. I really do understand that it sucks. Some of us get there, some of us don't. And for all of us, it generally takes quite a lot longer than 10 months unless you passed fairly well before you took a single hormone.

[Cheryl T]

I just read a report that said Caitlyn spent $4 million dollars on "becoming a woman". With that bankroll I think any of us could look "passable".
My question is ... is she really passable ? Everyone immediately recognizes her and knows ... "that used to be Bruce". Is that what being passable is or is it those of us who are seen as women and no one really knows one way or the other ??
Just sayin'

[Badtranny]

I wasn't passing consistently until year 3.

Transition is best measured in years rather than months.

[Rianna Humble]

My question is ... is she really passable ? Everyone immediately recognizes her and knows ... "that used to be Bruce". Is that what being passable is or is it those of us who are seen as women and no one really knows one way or the other ??

Although "passing" is something of more interest to cross-dressers than to transsexuals who are more often content when the world genders them correctly, this is not a problem in Caitlyn's case. When there was an item on UK television about the interview with Diane Sawyer, a GG friend of mine commented "I thought that was a woman".

I have to admit that I don't understand why people posting in the Transsexual forum are so hung up about the fact that Caitlyn paid for surgeries to make her body conform more closely to her identity.

[Cheryl T]

Rianna,
Apparently that was directed at me (or so I feel), therefore let me clarify things.
The original post was about Caitlyn "raising the bar for passing".
My comment was concerning that and included the amount spent by her to do that. If she had spent 10 million that would be fine with me. If I had her money I would do the same thing...and hopefully look as good. Her making her body reflect her inner self is not what this is about. The question was about passing and as I stated, any of us could look that good with that much money, but ... BUT, is that "passing" ??
I'm sure that most of the ladies here who have spent their hard earned money and endured the physical and emotional pain and stress that accompanies transition would not prefer to be seen as "that used to be ..." but would prefer to be seen as the woman they are.
That was my point.

[LeaP]

"Raised the bar on passing" implies something about CJ looking so good that others have to rise to her level to meet newly raised social expectations … Something like that. To that I say that she looks good – but I have seen others that look as good or better, too. That includes other trans celebrities and models, who are also in the public eye. Take a look at the pictures of her in jeans visiting the LA LGBT center. Check out close-ups of her face. Voice, as someone else mentioned. Again, she looks good. This is not criticism, but observation.

So I don't think she's moved the bar on beauty (forget passability). I will say she certainly set a new standard for a newly out person in terms of courage in clothing, though! Lingerie on a magazine cover, no less!

If anything has become more difficult, it is just the nature of her celebrity allowing an unusual number and varieties of commentary. I.e., it may make people feel freer to comment on the rest of us. But for me, her story is overwhelmingly positive. Everything has been presented so very well. In particular, she has been absolutely open and genuine throughout. Every last bit of her story resonates so strongly. The impact is noticeable on many commentators. Some – such as comedians and pundits – who are normally quick to jump on the ridicule and sarcasm, notably deferred for at least a short time. Elements of her story reach people emotionally. You don't see that sort of restraint otherwise.

I think all of this is good for us. I have been enjoying every minute of it so far.

[Rianna Humble]

Cheryl, I didn't agree with the original post talking about the CD's obsession with "passing" but let it ride.

You asked "is that passing?" to which I replied with the words of a GG who is not involved in trans* anything on seeing reports about the interview "I thought that was a woman", so to answer your question, yes that is "passing".

You are not the only member to have spoken about the amount of money that the rumour mill suggests Caitlyn has spent aligning her body to her identity, even if any of the figures were accurate, so what? Those of us who transition do whatever we have to do within the limits of the means available to us. Some of us are in lower paid jobs than others but that does not mean that it is somehow sinful for people who have additional funds available to use those funds to support their transition.

[Eryn]

I just read a report that said Caitlyn spent $4 million dollars on "becoming a woman"...'

Even at Beverly Hills rates that number is ridiculously inflated. After a certain point plastic surgery yields diminishing and eventually negative returns. It appears that Caitlyn has respected that limit.

[Starling]

...Take a look at the pictures of her in jeans visiting the LA LGBT center..."

The photos were taken at the LA LGBT Youth Shelter, actually. The Center itself, with its clinic and administration offices, is several blocks away. The Shelter is a wonderful place, full of terrific young people. I've donated clothes and treats there several times, and the kids are extremely warm and appreciative of any help you can offer. Security is strong, because of the vulnerability of these kids, but anyone who comes in peace is welcome.

I understand Caitlyn spent a fair amount of time there, meeting kids, learning about the program and discussing her own history. It wasn't just a photo-op. I think she's going to be doing great work, using her visibility to make things easier for all of us, especially the young'uns.

:) Lallie

[flatlander_48]

So it makes me wonder, does Caitlyn Jenner's coming out now raise the bar of what it takes to pass?

If you claim that, you would also have to say the same for Janet Mock, Lana Wachowski, Isis King, Laverne Cox and Geena Rocero; all of whom preceeded Jenner and look at least as good and probably better...

DeeAnn

[Cheryl T]

My comment on the $4 million dollar figure was just that any of us could look that good with that kind of backing at our disposal.
The story came concerning the E! show she's doing and that even at that figure she's estimated to be paid $5 million for the show.

They made the comment that it was profitable for her even at that level.

I don't care if she spent $10 million to make herself beautiful and align with her inner self. Good for her. I just hope that all this publicity benefits the rest of us in a positive way and doesn't create any negative feelings towards the community.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i hear you

i think in this case we are going to have to take it as it comes....

i hope the next stage of this is as pleasant a surprise as the abc special.

[Jorja]

I think the key here is that we (those of us in transition or already completed transition) go out and make ourselves available to the public. Answer questions as long as the questions are not too personal or mean spirited. Educate the public. Caitlyn stepping out there and doing everything she can do is great but even with her notoriety, she is going to need some help. She can't do it all by herself.

[PaulaQ]

I agree Jorja. We needed Caitlyn to help start the conversation. She did that in a way no other person could've done. But we absolutely cannot let her be the one to finish the conversation. The rest of us need to step up where we can, and engage in this dialog. We have to become visible. There are many, many matters where I find I disagree with gay and lesbian folks, but they got it right - coming out, being visible, was the smartest thing they ever did for their cause.

[Jorja]

Just an example of what a celebrity can do for a cause.

My father had Parkinson's Disease for several years before Michael J. Fox acknowledged that he had PD. The difference in funding and effort to find a cure was unbelievable. They found more and better drugs that help, better treatments have been found in the past 10 years than were found in the previous 200 years. All because a famous actor came out and said he had a disease.

While GD and all that goes with it is not that type of medical problem, I am sure you will agree, it is a problem. Someone like Caitlyn Jenner can take our cause to the world and get the results needed but she can't do it alone.

[flatlander_48]

True, it isn't that type of problem, but there is also a social part to it that physically-related medical issues don't have...

DeeAnn

[Sarah V]

I too am very glad to see Ms. Caitlyn go do what she is doing.....so far. I fully agree that she can really get the GD/TG spectrum conversation going probably better than anyone else can at the moment, and I wish her a lot of luck in being able to do so. But has been said, she will not be able to do it alone. I don't know if her upcoming E! TV show was really necessarily as I would not have elected to do it, but if she felt it needed to be done so be it as it is her life.

The only thing I hope for is that with whatever Ms. Caitlyn desires to get involved with now or in the future, is that she is able to do so successfully without having to bring all that Kardashian crap and baggage along with her. I know it's her's, but that whole family just makes my skin crawl whenever I think of them.

[Krisi]

I don't think the Caitlyn Jenner situation has anything to do with "passing". One's ability to pass stands on its own. If you look, sound and act like a woman, you will be taken as a woman. If not, you can't blame others, you've got to work at it yourself to get better.