Are you ever going to do "normal person stuff" again?

[PaulaQ]

I got asked this by one of my old ex-friends tonight, over facebook messenger. My transition was pretty hard on this woman, and her husband. They'd been friends of mine in the past for over 30 years. I hadn't actually seen either of them in over a year - it just felt like me presence made everyone really uncomfortable, and they stopped asking me over, so I took the hint and didn't talk to them.

But I messaged her today, mostly because she had dined at a restaurant about 3 blocks from where my boyfriend lives, and I'd eaten there several times, and so I commented about it on facebook. This is sort of a boring type of FB post from my perspective, but I thought "what the heck?"

I asked her if any of my old friends had noted the whole Caitlyn Jenner thing, since unlike most people, they had known a transgender person. (Me.) I was informed that they had not.

So she asked me how I was doing, and what I was doing, and I told her:
- Volunteer stuff for the trans community
- Support group stuff (I run one)
- Some political activism
- Dating a nice man
- Trying to hang on to my job

So she asked "Do you ever think you'll reach a point where you are just a person, not a cause, not a voice. Just a person doing person stuff."

So I told her that I was sorely tempted by that idea a lot - moving someplace where NO ONE knows me, and just living an anonymous life as a woman. The problem is, to do that, I really have to hide who I am. I'm just not willing to do that, and people don't really treat me as they do everyone else once they know I'm trans. (I'm very open about this.)

I pointed out that dating a nice man is generally considered "person stuff," but the thought of me with a man made her husband very uncomfortable. (Which doesn't surprise me at all, since her husband is one of my oldest friends.) Indeed, I pointed out that no matter who I dated, either male or female, I was going to make someone uncomfortable with my choice.

And that was really the crux of my problem - it's hard to do "person stuff" when so many people don't view me as actually being person, at least once they know I'm trans.

I actually don't have any idea about how I'd go about integrating back into the straight world to do "normal people stuff," at least not without going stealth. Really, a lot of the things I used to do seem so remote and improbable to me that I can't really imagine doing them anytime in the near future - vacations, or even going to the movies come to mind here. I don't really have any hobbies anymore - that was a casualty of my transition too.

My life in the gay community probably doesn't really count as "normal people stuff" from her perspective. Really, although I like my friends here, none of them are especially close friends, at least not yet, and I don't think I fit in especially well down here either. I don't really go to bars, which limits a lot of the social activity options down here. Plus I really don't like being the token trans woman in various LGBT settings. Anyway, I feel pretty sure that wouldn't fit her "normal person stuff" criteria anyway.

I watch a couple of TV shows - at least when I have spare time, although I'm terribly far behind on them. I guess that's pretty normal?

I have absolutely no idea how to integrate back into that world - the cis-hetro world I used to inhabit, without hiding. I mean, my boyfriend and I go places and we're fine. People treat us just like anyone else. So I feel pretty normal when I'm surrounded by strangers. Once people know me though, and I've disclosed that I'm trans, things change. You can see it in their body language. I don't get too many social invitations once they know, I guess that would be a way to put it.

Anyway - "normal person stuff" - what should I be doing, and does it make any difference what I do if I'm not going to be viewed as a normal person anyway?

I feel sort of ostracized from the world I used to inhabit. I'm not quite sure what to do about this - how to get back into it. I am thinking there's probably not much chance of that, really.

On a somewhat amusing note, she felt she had some idea of what the discrimination that many of us who are trans face must be like, given the discrimination she feels she faces as a middle-class, white, Christian person. Apparently her faith is looked upon negatively by some, which is of course unfortunate and unfair. But I don't think her situation is probably all that comparable to my own.

Maybe I just don't remember what "normal people" do?

She did suggest that me, her, and her husband all go to dinner in a couple of weeks. That'd be nice, seeing them again. I miss them, of course. I think maybe it's for the best if I just don't say very much about myself and what I'm doing now? Just see if I can keep them talking about themselves and their kids for the entire time?

Oh, one other amusing note about her restaurant visit post on Facebook. Her husband noted the presence of a fetish shop, "Leather Masters", on the same block as the restaurant, and made a joke about it. I decided not to mention that I am a customer of that place, and have been for quite a long time.

Yeah, I think not talking about myself as much as I can manage is probably the right thing to do when I have dinner with them.

[docrobbysherry]

I think your post is a poignant and eye opening wkeup call to many, Paula. Once you're out, things, people, life and even u change.

It was for me anyway. Thank u for posting.

[Aprilrain]

Ahh, yes all those marginalized and downtrodden christen, middle class, white people. They've just had to struggle so hard to become the majority of people in America. (Not!)

Does your friend Faux news much?

From my experience with people like her, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that dinner to happen.

[STACY B]

I get it, What your saying about Normal Stuff, But your Normal, Our Normal is THERE Normal, Your's and Our's NOW?
Does that make since? When you were a guy you fell into the Norm of every day life as wanted by the Masses and it dictates our lives they way so called Normal vanilla living is concerned. With no input from us and the way we REALLY FEEL.

Just do as your Gender states, An act the part you were born and don't deviate from the Norm, If you do Color outside the lines you will be shunned and driven out of the pack forever, Kind like the Omish.

Well we didn't ask for it, Trans stuff, An now the CURE is main stream and not accepted by the Normal people YET we have to be put into a special Box and place away from them not to remind them of out of the Norm world same as a special needs people were.

My take on it is this and this will tell you a little bit about me besides the off an on dependence on Alcohol. I thought over and over again in some of my sober moments and there were lots of them in my life believe it or not. I wasn't a life time out and out drunk. I was a working functioning alcoholic most times with LOTS of friends and family around all the time for lots of reasons and the accepted the booze not only in my adult life but as far back as I can remember as a kid. All of out family functions were alcohol driven and I grew up thinking if you weren't drinking you weren't having a Good enough time, Even if it's was fun it could be better with some drinks. Where I live now an I grew up here it is and always will be social acceptable to partake in drinking at almost any function except maybe in church and still at church functions in my faith it is accepted but not in the sanctuary.
But don't get me wrong it's not always about the booze I am building up to another subject, Anyway like I said in my many moments of clear thinking I said to myself---- Self this can't be what's it all about? Going to work before day light and staying till after dark, Raising kids, Paying bills, And getting up on your one and only day off just to Mow and weed eat the yard, Never want to go an do anything because of the Gender issue, Just felt empty and alone with your own family right there and no one even knew your real truth.

And after a lot of soul searching and fighting with myself I came to realize there was more out that and more to real happiness than everyday NORMAL LIFE, So when you say normal life what normal is it there's or your's ? This may be normal to us, You can inter great into a regular cycle somewhere else if you want or stay where your at. But you have to find your normal and what is comfortable to you?

I was always one to beat my own path down and am a Leader, Maybe not what most people think but a Rebel none the less, A real hard Row to Tow to say the least, But it's my way, So we all have our normal's . There's is just different from your's and hell why not just waste your life making someone else feel good?
Your Ol Buddy want someone to feel as Bad as He does because misery LOVES company, So don't buck the system whatever you do ,lol,, Hell I thought that was why we saw the therapist and continued forward in our journey? Maybe I am wrong who knows? That's how I see it.

We will never fit into there world again, Maybe they will pretend and maybe they will remember the old days and try an recapture some of the little snips of the past but never can you be that person again that they knew.

We have to move on an suck the life out of this new world that we are given access to. Remember the Good times and never forget the Bad times, That is a good tool for us to live by. I have my moments and fall back into the old ways for a moment and then catch myself and say that time has past. Just stay strong and Live your life the way you want. It's not your job to make everyone else's life Happy, Just your's.

[emma5410]

I am not sure exactly what normal really is or whether it is all it is cracked up to be. In my opinion you are 'better' than normal because you are visible as a transgendered (almost typed transsexual:)) person and you use your time to help others. That has to be more worthwhile than normal. I know there may be times when you wish for a quieter life but would you be satisfied and happy?
As for your friends perhaps you are slowly educating them. At the end of a day you can only be yourself and hope that others like and accept you.

[Laura912]

Paula, you raise a lot of interesting points, however, when you became the new "you" normal was reset to accommodate that. When I retired, my normal reset itself to be more involved with retirement activities...woodworking and flying...than those when in practice. In fact, I hardly see former colleagues. A colleague who transitioned several years ago, moved to another large city to continue her practice because she did not want to be known as that transgendered person. Yet, she actively works with some transgendered groups, is dating, and has a link on her professional website to transgendered issues and events. And you admit that you generally let people know that you are transgendered. I miss some of the things and people from before retirement and you miss some of the things and people from your life before. But "before" simply does not exist "now." It is a memory and may feel like a loss to you so you grieve a little. Is there a solution? Probably passage of time, redefining yourself which is another way of saying reset your normal. Saying something as trite as take up a new hobby (go take flying lessons!), is not going to be the answer but could help. Do you really have the time to engage in more activities? None of this addresses losing old friends during the resetting of your normal. Do not know that there is an easy answer for that. Would be happy to further explore this in person if you ever travel this way. Best to you.

[stefan37]

We live in the closets we make for ourselves. My life has changed since going full time. And yet in many ways it hasn't. Maybe because I live in Trans friendly state? I still belong to a professional association that I belonged to pre transition. There are a couple that have shied away, but the majority still value my presence. Yeah there are those that misgender, but it's not intentional. I joined a Sailing club and interact as a what I believe a normal female. I have no idea what they think. Probably think I'm afeminine male. But I have never disclosed that I'm Trans not that I lived male previously. I became close with one member. I did disclose to her that I'm Trans. We socialize frequently. I don't volunteer I'm Trans nor will I deny it. Yes you are gendered differently when the figure your Trans. Add long as they gender me female I'm good.
I don't know why you feel the impulse or need to disclose this Transness to anybody. I don't meet new people and day Hi, I'm Stephanie. I'm a transsexual. And I don't think you should either. It's nobody's business unless you want to make it their business. As far as activities, I pretty much do what I did pre full-time. I have found the easiest way to integrate is to get active with the Cis population and socialize. I've joined a Sailing club whose members are exclusively Cis. Women's business organizations. A singles meetup. I belong to a professional electrical inspector's association. Actually since transition I've become even more outgoing than I was previously. There group members may not completely perceive me as female. But they have been accepting and do their best to treat me as one. It's all I can ask for. Th

[kimdl93]

You'll probably never achieve a life that seems normal to her. In the end, feeling good about yourself is as normal as a person ever really needs to be.

[I Am Paula]

Normal to cis folk, and normal to trans folk will never meet.
By circumstances, I'm pretty darn normal. The gay village I once called home is two and a half hours away, I'm in a small town, and the only things to really show my activism to is the cows that surround me. I go about my day the same as the woman next door, and the woman next door to her (Except I dress way better. LOL). I do the same things my whole community does. I can talk farming with the old boys (to a degree) and hockey with the younger ones (to a lesser degree). I go out on GNO's and get thanked for driving those who drink home.
To me it is an all inclusive community.
To them, it will always be community+ the gal who used to be a guy.
I can live with that.

[PretzelGirl]

I guess the greater question is what should be normal. Like you, I have chosen a path of contributing to the community. So what are the outcomes of this? Well first, more people recognize that I am TG because it is basically publicized in a small way (*side note below). Also, if my wife didn't watch TV, I would turn off the service. I have stayed too busy since transition to have time for it. I have more friends and more things to do, mostly to creating new friendships through the activism. That is another major change. But I do find that my lot in life only comes up when it is appropriate to the situation or conversation, which is rarely outside of the LGBTQ community. Maybe that is a difference that I am not experiencing like you are. Everyone at work treats me as who I am. The same for a side business I am in. The ladies are all inclusive of me and I am in regular conversations with them.

I have to admit, I get pretty relaxed and don't look for things, so I may have a blind eye to microagressions. But when I think about it deliberately, I don't see any, so I believe I am good anyway. Ultimately, what is going to make you happy Paula? It sounds like you want to advocate, but struggle with the exposure that comes with it. So do you do your time and move on with the peace of mind that you contributed to a level that filled your heart? Then maybe the recognition will slowly diminish, even if you live locally.

*note from above.... One of the things I am struggling with is the recognition. I am the kind of person that picks up faces and names, so I always know a lot of people before we meet. The tables have turned. A chair of a board contacted me and let me know he was looking at me for his board. The board I ended up on had two people come up to my after I applied and told me it was about time as they had been waiting for me to be ready. The editor of a local magazine said "I know who you are" when I introduced myself to him recently. It is a little unnerving to me because I tend to know others first and feel a disadvantage in control. Obviously, it is something I have to get used to if I continue to have a public face. Is this maybe a part of what you are feeling which takes away a level of privacy or is your experience different?

[Angela Campbell]

To each her own I guess. For me. ..i live a normal life, do normal things, and get along pretty well. A few friends I made when I was transitioning know about my past, but for the most part i am just a woman. I rarely go to"trans" events, or hang out with trans people, I just go about life.

[Melissa_Rose]

You all speak of social issues I haven't yet experienced but know that I am headed that way quickly. My current situation is mostly isolated and my therapist is a big advocate for more social interaction and support. She is encouraging me to make friends and be more open. But I haven't figured out how to actually be social.
In all of my thoughts I have had about being more social, I never considered being looked at as anything other than female. I knew I was going to face issues with the people that knew me before, but I guess I hoped that once I reached a point in my transition new people would just see me for me.
Thank you for providing prospective of the future to come.

[Sandie70]

I used to be a full time commercial artist. Then at some point I pursued other interests but still kept the word "artist" on my resume and business cards. A friend of a friend who was a doctor criticized this. "You don't work as an artist any more," she said. "So that's misleading to still call yourself an artist."

Well, this doctor had given up her practice and hadn't worked for about 6 months. "If that's so," I said. "Then you should take the M.D. off your name and tell everyone not to call you "doctor" anymore."

Of course, that didn't set too well with the doctor. But she got the point.

You see, we may change directions in our professions - change our gender - take on new passions. But we are still "us." All that normal stuff we did in the past, well, it's still a part of us - we can still do it, we just add our new pursuits to it.

The question as to whether we will ever do "normal" stuff again is mute. I never stopped doing "normal" stuff, and my past will always be a part of who I am now. I suppose, for me, this might be called the "new normal."

And I still put the word "artist" on my cards.

[cheryl reeves]

what is normal anyway?

[Sammy777]

As far as what "normal" is and how we do or not do it.

I never really felt normal around normal, and that has nothing to do with being Trans.
Honestly, at this point I probably couldn't tell you what "normal" people's normal looks like.
And honestly, I could give a frackin rat's ass because if their normal is what I think it is, I will pass, Thanks. :lol2:

[jigna]

You are more than a normal and clean by heart.

[Rachel Smith]

Why would you tell anyone you are TG? While I won't deny it, though I have never been ask, let them figure it out themselves. I see NO reason to tell anyone other then those I have already told which consists of immediate family and work only. No one else NEEDS to know.

[PaulaQ]

I don't know why you feel the impulse or need to disclose this Transness to anybody.


Why would you tell anyone you are TG?

So I thought I'd answer this since more than one person had asked. It's a legitimate question and one I have thought about a lot.

There are really two answers for this. The political one I tell everyone (which is still the truth), and a personal reason that I don't tell people.

Reason 1: I believe that the only way to improve the situation for all trans people is for those of us who can to stand up and be visible. Many of us have no choice - we're visible. Much to my very great surprise, I'm apparently not so visible. The notion that others don't have the privilege I have bothers me. So I stand up, and am visible, just like so many of us who have no choice in this matter. That I do is irrelevant to me. Why should I be so special? Now I know I can't completely revoke this privilege, nor would I want to, as I am certain it makes my life a whole lot safer than that of many other trans women I know. But I can stand up and be seen. I can talk to people about who I am, and who we are. I can stand in front of an audience, and out myself. It doesn't bother me.

Reason 2: I lied about who and what I was for most of my life. I simply don't have it in me to do that anymore. I already feel like damaged goods, that at any moment, someone who knows me will discover some horrible secret about me, and be devastated by it, and yet somehow manage to hurt me at the same time. This has more or less been my experience thus far. I really hurt my ex-wife, lying to her about my gender issues all those years. All my ex-friends seem genuinely grief stricken and hurt. I did this to them. Yes, there were extenuating circumstances. But I can't do it again. I just can't. I already have a bad tendency now to end relationships before the other person ends them - because I perpetually feel as if at any moment, they'll discover something about me that makes them hate me - a lot. And that whatever it is they discover about me will somehow hurt them badly. I feel like I should have a warning label!

So I know reason #2 is not based entirely in reality. But there is one thing about it that is real - I want people to like me for me. I don't want them to like some image I create. I did that my whole life - no more. I'm just who I am, no more, no less. If they can't accept that I am a woman, but that I'm also trans, and treat me like anyone else, I don't want their friendship.

However, having said that, I have to wonder if that is going to work out so well for me - so far it hasn't really. It's a difficult seeming tradeoff. Either I don't disclose, and lie about myself - a lot. 50 years of prior history is a lot to gloss over. I would simply keep people at a distance, and never really let them get to know me. This is what I did before, I know what that's like and it isn't so hot. Alternatively, I can tell people up front, and they never actually get close enough to me to get to know me very well. That's what seems to be happening now.

______________________________

I had brunch with my son today. He's grieving the loss of his father. I'm really not the person he wants a relationship with. He misses the conversations we used to have, before my transition. We'd talk movies, or video games, or sometimes other stuff. I don't really follow much of any of that stuff anymore. He hates the neighborhood where I live. Really, he hates all of this. I talked to him about some of the problems I'd faced, and he was of the opinion that this was all my choice, so I have to bear the consequences for it. I pointed out that it seemed at least a little unfair that legislators in my state had tried to pass laws that would imprison me just for being trans. He could understand, for example, the reasoning behind the anti-trans bathroom bills, so he thought that was just too bad. This surprised me - and then it didn't. He's got a lot of anger that's unresolved over my transition, I think.

I'm not really expecting the relationship with either of my kids to make it over the long haul. I want it to, and I hope it does - but all of these people in my past seem to be stuck grieving over the loss of the person I used to be. It's been two years, maybe they'll eventually get over it, but I think what I am seeing instead is that their attitudes are hardening in anger. They are unhappy with how they feel, and there's a person they can blame for it - me. Well, I hope I'm wrong, but there's probably not much I can do about it if I'm not. This seems to be a pretty common thread amongst all my old ex-friends, too.

I guess the part that is hard for me - I know I have trouble accepting this - is that there is almost nothing I can do about any of this. It doesn't matter what I say or do, seemingly. They feel how they feel. In fact, when I do anything, it seems as if it makes it worse sometimes, no matter what it is that I do.

I am powerless over the way these people feel about me. As hard as that is for me to accept, I believe it is the truth.

I don't know why I let this bother me. I already know that this is a world that does not value honesty and authenticity. It is a world that demands conformity, even if you have to lie a lot in order to appear to conform. In fact, lying is far better, as long as you aren't caught out in it, than the truth. The truth is hard to take. Lies are really comfortable - since they aren't based in reality, they can be whatever you want to hear. Who doesn't want that?

BTW, I criticize no one here for making different choices than I have. I am explaining my own decisions only. I do not assert they are better than anyone else's decisions.

[Melissa_Rose]

I get your point for the people in your life before transition. But I don't understand it for people you meet after. Maybe I am simplifing this too much... If you transition because you believe you are a female inside, they why do you need to ever explain the anatomy issue??
Past and experience is all your. It made you who you are. Your mind is female and now your body matches. You could talk about your past and be truthful to everyone but just omit the details of the anatomy issue.
Maybe that doesn't match up with your desire to be public and vocal. But I guess you could say if there were lots of accepting people around you then there would be a need for someone to be doing what you are doing.. so thank you

Melissa

[stefan37]

We are all powerless about how people feel or react to us.
Your past is your past. You don't have to reveal it unless pressured or asked to. How is it lying to not volunteer you are Trans? I don't volunteer, but if asked I won't deny it either. I've been a member of a Sailing club for 2 years more. I've only told one member ( we have gotten close and go out to socialize quite frequently) that I'm Trans. I'm sure many more know or just think I'm different as I used to get gendered male by some frequently
That said I have had no one ask me. I refer to my ex as my roommate and that's not a lie. If you're as invisible as you say then it's up to you to disclose under the circumstances you deem necessary.

It also just may be the area you live in. I have not had anywhere near the horror stories you and some other members have related. Jersey is a Trans friendly state. The anti discrimination law they passed allows individuals to use the bathroom that they identify with. It us written into law as a civil right.

We all have similar circumstances and yet we all have many different situations we must deal with how we think will give us the best quality of life.

[STACY B]

I understand Paula's Point BUT she is a RIGHT FIGHTER ! An most are not, An being Trans is no different than being Cis, Different problems still problems though. If your like most people you don't want to disclose certain things about yourself to EVERYONE.

Do you stop an tell a perfect stranger you stole something when you were a kid? How bout your religion? How bout your sexual desires? What about any other personal thing you may not be talking about? So why tell people your Trans if they don't read you? Now this comment is for those in late transition not us new be's..lol

Just think how you would feel if someone told you in line at the store,, By the way I am Really this or that? Hell you don't wanna know all that Crap,, DO YOU ? If you get along without disclosing to much info GOOD,, Just get along,, Not that many people care about what anyone else is doing. If they do stay away from them they have way to much time on there hands and the next thing they will want is to move in or borrow money !!!

:D :D :brolleyes:

[Rogina B]

Make friends with people that "get it" and build from there. Only way to have a full life....We don't live in a vacuum...Many girls waste their effort with people "that will never get it"...

[Ann Louise]

I joined the congregation of a local Unitarian Universalist (UU) church in a separate nearby town largely with the intent of restarting my life after completing my physical transition, and I never bring up the trans thing, ever. I am simply regarded as the lesbian spouse of my dear wife, and given we UU's are died in the wool progressive liberals of one stripe or another, have engendered a widening circle of "normal people" around me, all of whom embrace one another's differences fully.

Of course I've probably been clocked by some, but as long as they follow their trans etiquette around me, so what? And if the time arises when someone asks the infamous "can I ask you a question?" line, I will divulge as much of my medical history to them as any other "normal person" would.

Peace Sisters 😊

[PaulaQ]

Bear in mind that until I step down from the leadership of the trans organization where I volunteer, and probably move from my neighborhood, it's going to be pretty hard to be stealthy. I've been in the local papers a couple of times, and on the local TV news. I'm fairly well known in the gayborhood - there's not much hiding here. I've done all of my transition here so far, and neighborhood folks have watched it.

Other parts of Dallas, I'm just another woman. So it's not like I'd need to move far.

As for invisibility, I dunno. I always worry about this - you can see my pictures, you be the judge. I seem to not be noticed just about any place I go outside of the gayborhood. Going around the little town where I used to live in Oklahoma without being recognized or noticed gave me more confidence that I was passing.

I don't tell random strangers that I'm trans. Just people I know well.

I just wanted to clarify all that.

And yeah, after two years of non-progress with their grief, my former friends are unlikely to change their minds.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

paula if you are living authentically for you, thats all that matters..

i did things others didnt agree with,,,i made my own choices,,,,for better or worse i authentically feel like i am alive and living those consequences...i went from feeling nothing to feeling everything...

you paid the price...to me you are living a normal life and you can't let the subtext of words get too much traction...you are a woman...you choose to live your life a certain way...end of story..

Does any activist live a "normal" life? that's a rhetorical question... does the CEO of a big company or a refugee in a war torn country live a normal life?? the whole concept serves no constructive purpose..

[Inna]

So she asked "Do you ever think you'll reach a point where you are just a person, not a cause, not a voice. Just a person doing person stuff."

So I told her that I was sorely tempted by that idea a lot - moving someplace where NO ONE knows me, and just living an anonymous life as a woman. The problem is, to do that, I really have to hide who I am. I'm just not willing to do that, and people don't really treat me as they do everyone else once they know I'm trans. (I'm very open about this.)


Existential ideology!!!
Two distinct themes do rise, one of embracing the true self that of a woman you were born yet complicated by birth genetic defect, the other of living in a conceptual frame work of stereotype, your fiend had referred to as "Normal"

By stepping into a realm of SELF and no longer obeying the societal construct of gender, you basically have crushe the stereotype of what it is to be YOU. Your friend however does not see it from such perspective, but only notices the AB-normality of your situation.
Relativity comes to mind, and you your self feel well, YOU, so now you are truly NORMAL as suppose to before the transition, for the friend of yours is the other way around.

Then also the aspect of true identity comes to mind. YOU are as much a woman as any woman born to this planet with some sort of reproductive/genetic malfunction at birth, such as XXY XYY chromosome identity etc.
There are lots of variants in the TG box, however for women identifying as woman one thing remains true, and that is being born a WOMAN! and not trans anything as that is simply just description of condition and not the SELF!

[PaulaQ]

Does any activist live a "normal" life? that's a rhetorical question... does the CEO of a big company or a refugee in a war torn country live a normal life?? the whole concept serves no constructive purpose..

Of course it serves no purpose. Although they seem to take it as an affront that my life isn't much like theirs anymore. I think that may be a big part of the problem. I am absolutely not the type of person that most of them would be friends with. The one friend I have from back then accepts me because she used to do a fair amount of volunteer work for an AIDS charity. She can accept and be friends with someone like me. For the rest of them, I believe I am simply not the type of person they'd associate with, much less befriend. Being trans is a part of this. But it's not all of it. Having a boyfriend bothers them. For that matter, when I had a girlfriend, that also bothered them. I'm liberal - that bothers them, they aren't. I volunteer for causes that are directly assaulting their way of life, threatening their very existence. (Well, OK, if 0.3% of the population can threaten 30% of the population, then, woo, I can see why they'd feel a threat.)

I'll reach out a time or two more, but I really don't hold out much hope for the relationships. Since they haven't improved in two years - in fact they seem to be dealing with it progressively worse over time - I'm not holding out much hope for a change in their attitudes.

My life, as it progresses, is successively less relatable to their lives. Were we to meet now for the first time, instead of having been friends for years, we'd have absolutely nothing in common. They are nice people, but they'd bore the hell out of me. We would have near enough to nothing in common to talk about. And for my part, I'd most likely anger and confuse them. The absolute best case would be "oh yeah, I know this one transgender..."

[Deborah_UK]

To each her own I guess. For me. ..i live a normal life, do normal things, and get along pretty well. A few friends I made when I was transitioning know about my past, but for the most part i am just a woman. I rarely go to"trans" events, or hang out with trans people, I just go about life.

:yt:

While I can't get away from my past at work (I transitioned in situ) my life away from work is (hopefully) just like everyone else, I get on with life.

I applaud those who do champion the cause, and within my work environment I do what I can within the Trans network in the UK Civil Service, but when I retire (only 8 months to go!) then I hope to put my past firmly where it belongs - in the past!

[flatlander_48]

As some may know, I spent 6 years working in Taiwan in the 8 years between 2004 and 2011. In that time, I worked with, for or supervised, people from 18 different countries, if I remember correctly. I've always been aware of how cultural dynamics play out, but it is fascinating to be immersed in it 10 hours a day for 6 or 7 days a week. One of the more interesting phenomena was when people from the dominant US culture realized that they were suddenly in a minority. This was quite difficult for many. It took a while and most eventually got it, but I think some never got over being uncomfortable. They realized that they could not hide; they could not be anonymous. In everything that they did, they stood out. I mentioned this previously in a thread that turned to quicksand, so it never got addressed. Obviously I can't speak to the significance of this for people who are in the process of transitioning, but it is another facet of the full range of changes that take place.

Clearly transitioning is a minefield. I think everybody knows the things that COULD blow up, but it is hard to predict beforehand WHAT will actually blow up and HOW BAD. So, the question is this:

With the realization that in addition to leaving one gender and migrating to another, does the fact that you are now in a minority group (and you were not previously), have any bearing on your perspective about transitioning? Not that it would change anything, but is the perception that it doesn't mean much or is an extra burden or ??

I think what eventually got folks over the hump was that they realized that the Taiwanese tended not to be a hostile group of people. The history with the US was generally favorable, so if you stayed out of the shadows, there wasn't a lot to fear. But, in the case of those who are somewhere in the process of transitioning, they have gone from being the major part of the population to a tiny fraction. The statisticians call that a step change. Could that be part of the difficulty?

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

With the realization that in addition to leaving one gender and migrating to another, does the fact that you are now in a minority group (and you were not previously), have any bearing on your perspective about transitioning? Not that it would change anything, but is the perception that it doesn't mean much or is an extra burden or ??

Yes and no. I've always been in a minority group - I'm handicapped. This is highly visible (I walk funny, I always have), and I was singled out and bullied while growing up. So in some respects, I feel this helped me in transition in several ways:

I don't even notice when people stare at me. They did this quite a lot in the very early days of my transition, and I just didn't notice it.
I'm used to dealing with religious people, or others, who come up to me, unbidden, and offer their opinions about my life. I have years of practice at dealing with this.
I'm used to feeling somewhat stigmatized - although admittedly with my handicap people's attitudes have changed so much as I've aged that this wasn't anything like the kind of issue it was when I was a kid. So the stigma of transness was still a rude shock.



So from that standpoint, I was kind of used to some of this. (Although what I experienced before compared in no way to what I go through now.)

On the other hand, moving from living in predominantly straight areas to now living in a predominantly (at least for now...) gay area has certainly been a big case of culture shock. I didn't understand the gay community at all before I moved here. In general, I like it a lot - I have lots of friends here, but somehow I feel like I don't quite fit in. Everyone is very nice, but I've never been a gay man, so I don't share a lot of the same experiences with them. Obviously I have been with women - but I really haven't had the types of experiences most lesbians have, at least until after my transition started. I suspect my surprise that my mom hated that I had a girlfriend, despite the fact that I'd always been with women, just isn't a common experience for lesbians! (At least the parents hating your same-gender partner is probably common...)

I am in a straight relationship now, but a lot of my old connections to the straight world I used to live in have been sort of severed with the losses of friends. I'll eventually make new ones, I suppose, although I'm not sure how well I'll fit in there. Saying the words "I'm transgender" pretty much eliminates the perception that I'm a straight woman. (Just as well, I'm actually not straight anyway.) It'll be easier to re-establish some friendships and stuff in that world when I spend more time in it. Although I have to say, observing it from the sidelines, it's pretty darned boring a lot of the time. (It's like dang, so many of these people don't seem to do anything!)

Anyway, I guess the way I'd characterize it is that I'm just having trouble finding a spot where I really fit in well. So from that standpoint, being a minority is difficult. It's very isolating. (To say nothing of actual discrimination I've dealt with - and I haven't had it nearly as bad as so many others. Not even close!)

On the topic of doing "normal person stuff," I had dinner with a friend of mine last night at a restaurant in Plano. This was pretty normal, although she was a crossdresser enjoying a couple of weeks of freedom to dress up while her wife and kids were out of town. We ended up talking about classical organ music - mainly of the baroque era. My friend was an organist - I had no idea. It was neat to find another person who really likes this type of music, not so many people do. I realize though, that from most people's perspective, this probably wasn't what "normal people" do.

I dunno, I guess I'll ask my old friend who originally queried me "are you ever going to do normal people stuff again", whether or not this was normal? Or if she knows any crossdressers? (I'm fairly certain I'm the only transperson she's met that she is aware of.) I'll wait to do this until I'm really certain the relationship isn't going to mend, presuming we ever see one another again.

[flatlander_48]

Although I have to say, observing it from the sidelines, it's pretty darned boring a lot of the time. (It's like dang, so many of these people don't seem to do anything!)

I heard that! Before I moved here, the company I used to work for transferred me to a plant in Ottawa, IL. It's about 80 miles southwest of Chicago. However, I chose to live in Joliet (about 45 miles away) for 2 reasons. One was that in the town of Ottawa (~18,000 then) there was hardly anyone who looked like me and also the social life was like you describe. Ottawa is at where the Fox and Illinois rivers come together. In the summer, people were out on their boats and drank. In the winter, they were at the bowling alley and drank. Not that I don't drink, because I do. But, that wasn't social life. It was more like social death.


Anyway, I guess the way I'd characterize it is that I'm just having trouble finding a spot where I really fit in well. So from that standpoint, being a minority is difficult. It's very isolating. (To say nothing of actual discrimination I've dealt with - and I haven't had it nearly as bad as so many others. Not even close!)

Yes, the spectre of discrimination is the second part of it.

Getting back to the first part, one of the other things that happened within the gay community is how folks came together. With so many being kicked out by their parents, or just ostracised in general, folks took to building their own families within the community. I think they felt that there was no other choice. To me, it seems that there is some balance to be struck between inside the community and outside. What that balance is, I have no idea...

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

Perhaps instead of commenting on transgender events, my own transition, and general LGBT issues on my Facebook wall, I should, instead post:
1. Recipes I'm trying out, like this one: jello with shrimp frosting (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/21/jello-shrimp-frosting-photos-reddit_n_4124713.html)
2. Pictures of my cat: (awwww! I <3 you Mr. Wicked!)
247152
3. Comments on restaurants I'm visiting.
4. Interesting articles about my fascinating hobby: http://stamps.org/Home

I could avoid controversial subjects such as:
1. Having a boyfriend (ewwww - you're with a MAN?!)
- or alternatively -
2. Having a girlfriend (omg - you're a lesbian!?!? - or - you aren't with your wife?!?)

3. Being trans

4. Anything that isn't light and fun and happy!

5. Maybe remove photos of myself, so they don't really have to notice that I'm a girl?

Do y'all think this might address the concern "are you ever going to do normal person stuff again?" Since I'm not sure whether or not these folks will actually do anything with me in person, I'd think just posting fairly normal sounding stuff ought to do the trick, don't you think? I mean I know it would help some of them if I posted the occasional Fox News article, or some such, but I have to be able to stand myself at the end of the day, so I am not going to do that. I draw the line there.

[stefan37]

It's your life. Live it as you please. It's one of perks of transitioning and living authentically. You get to live it as you wish. Ask yourself. Do I want to live in trannyland or add a member of society. There is no right or wrong way. Just the way you want. I do not want to live in trannyland, so I limit my interaction with the "Trans Community". I don't post a lot of Trans stuff on my FB page. If there's an article if interest. Or is my family or friends post or share offensive stuff about Trans individuals I will call them out. I have defriended some so called friends breadbasket of their downright hatred of us. But that's only been like 1 or 2.

I don't volunteer, but if asked I don't deny. I've yet been asked by anyone in the 3 social organizations I joined that did not know me before my legal name change.

[PaulaQ]

Nobody commented about my cat. How disappointing!


Do I want to live in trannyland or add a member of society.

Given what the rest of society does to the world and to each other, I'm thinking "mmmm ... not so much." Tempting as it is to just disappear, I couldn't live with myself if I did.


I do not want to live in trannyland, so I limit my interaction with the "Trans Community".

I don't want to live there either. Nobody should have to live in "trannyland", but some of us don't get much of a choice if we don't want to live in total isolation. We're fine, it's the world that needs to change. I do get that choice, so I choose to do what I can to educate others so that they might, one day, be accepting of us.

This evening, I spent my evening helping to run a support group meeting. Last night, I met with trans women who'd just come out to themselves, and who weren't sure what to do. I remember how desperate, miserable, alone and terrified I was when I first posted on this place a bit over two years ago. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't try to help others who are in the same dire straits I found myself in. I've helped people find therapists, medical resources, and shelter, sometimes living with me.

I saw a young trans man tonight who I'd encouraged to not shave his facial hair and to not try to somehow hide his transition from his grandparents who he visited this Sunday, for Father's Day. And he showed up tonight, with a nice set of mutton chops. And he told me it went OK with them. I would've had no right to give that young man advice, to tell him to take a risk to be himself were I not willing to take risks myself.

What I hope I do here locally though, at least a bit, is inspire other people to stand up. To help themselves by helping others. I'm just one of many who do this, and I'm certain that I am by no means the most effective at it. But I do what I can.

The normal people doing normal stuff in this country allow genuinely horrible things to happen - and most of them utter not one peep about them. If they choose not to enumerate me amongst their ranks, then so be it. I'll be proud of that. But my real hope is that they'll grow, and at least a few of them will accept me for who I am, not what they want me to be.

[KaceyR]

I'm a bit mixed on my responses to this. I don't think I'll ever be just a plain "normal" person. For a few reasons.
Mainly because I tend to kind of push for advocacy For LGBT in general.. and also open sexuality and trans issues..
I'll talk to anyone interested about the transitioning aspect, and if they want to discuss the more adult stuff..fine too.
But the thing is that I was (with the exception of a few specific friends) a loner to begin with. Hard to be social. (still somewhat)
But along with my transition also kicked in my self-awareness of my sexuality side.
So because I've started small with the few already accepting friends, I've been expanding that social side.. both to Trans folk and to other more accepting "regular" folk that also understand and can accept my gender, sexuality, kink side and all.

I kind have slowed down the big "go to every trans meeting" and such activity.. and are pursuing more regular things... if you can call it that. Friday's are trans support groups... but 2 of the days I actually go to other non trans social meetups instead.
I support trans, but I try not to keep it the scheduled focus.
I've got 30 years to make up for not being social or even being myself. So I'm working on that side as a priority.
It may be a bit late (I hit 50 in a month :( ) but I do what I can to enjoy what left I have.
It might be thought of as a little selfish but can't be helped..I'm transitioning for myself and my sanity.. and not to just be a Trans teacher. I'll explain things if people want..but I won't be a person to work to "convert" the unbeliever to a cause. If they're not open-minded enough to allow understanding of things to start with..I've limited energy to work with and feel it's better put to other use.
But "Normal" in the mode of what people think nowadays? Nah... Even before my gender and social transitioning I can't say I really was "normal".

[flatlander_48]

Nobody commented about my cat. How disappointing!

Tough! Just not a cat person. TOTALLY grossed out by the critters coughing up hair balls.


I'm just one of many who do this, and I'm certain that I am by no means the most effective at it.

The thing is, if you are the one standing between someone and The Abyss, it makes no difference who you are, what you look like, what you know or what you had for breakfast. All that that matters is that you have chosen that position between them and The Abyss. To paraphrase, you may not be Ms. Right, but you are definitely Ms. RightNow...

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

So I went out to lunch with a couple of different cis women friends of mine, one on Sunday, and one Monday. We talked about relationships, parenting, some trans stuff, people we knew, makeup, jobs, all sorts of mostly pretty normal stuff. These felt like pretty normal activities. The one on Sunday started out a little shaky for being considered "normal" - we had brunch at a restaurant in my neighborhood. Which is fine, really - except it was a drag brunch. This was unexpected and hilarious, but ok, probably not quite normal. We did end up at Starbucks though afterwards to talk. I mean, what's more cis-normative than "Starbucks," right?

So I can be normal too! I worked my job, and also had dinner with my boyfriend both nights. (Admittedly, Sunday night we watched TV together, and I don't think the show we watched was all that normal. It was some dang thing he likes called "Finding Bigfoot." Although in no way trans related - one of the people on the show is pretty obviously a lesbian but as far as is known, nobody's trans - I can't exactly call this normal TV. There wasn't a Red Sox game on, what can I say?)

OK, sure, I also spoke at an HRC press conference on TV here in Dallas today about what's next after gay marriage. I guess that probably doesn't qualify as normal person stuff. Then again, a lot of the normal people, at least judging from my facebook wall, have spent this weekend trying to rationalize why Jim Obergefell (who spoke here today both the press conference, and at a celebration I attended later) shouldn't be given the simple dignity of being listed as his husband's spouse on his husband's death certificate. I wish the feelings of normal people shocked me, but given how many trans people who've been buried under their deadnames (two in my area this year), I guess I'm more surprised that normal people don't subject us to even further indignities even after we've passed on.

I think I'm beginning to have a hard time here wanting to even be normal. Because if normal people like my friend who posed the question of this thread to me are fine with denying dignity to a gay or transgender person even after death, I have to say that I'm probably very happy to not be a normal person. Because if that's normal - I want nothing to do with it.

Anyway, lunch was nice both days, and I think I'm well on my way to having more cis friends. That part felt great!

[flatlander_48]

OK, sure, I also spoke at an HRC press conference on TV here in Dallas today about what's next after gay marriage.

We dropped the ball on GENDA again here in New York State. Really odd how we can embrace same-sex marriage but have such resistance for GENDA...

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

@flatlander_48
Most people don't understand that such protections are vital for us - 90% of people surveyed here in the U.S. don't understand the level of discrimination we face.

Many do not see us as human beings, exactly, in my experience.

edit:
I think the following picture from our local news shows I probably have to turn in my "normal person" card.

247411

I'm standing next to Chaz Griffin, president of the HRC, in a press conference here in Dallas about marriage equality. As an aside, they had four trans people at the press conference and three of us spoke. I'm hoping they (the HRC) was serious about that "y'all are next after marriage equality" thing they've been saying for a while now...

[LeaP]

There is no "next" when it comes to fundamental rights. The idea that they should be prioritized and sequenced is morally bankrupt. The offensive way to put the same concept over is "get in line."

All in all, Paula, sounds like a pretty normal life to me.

(PS – cats… ew)

[PaulaQ]

There is no "next" when it comes to fundamental rights. The idea that they should be prioritized and sequenced is morally bankrupt.

No argument from me on this - I agree completely.

I had dinner with my ex brother-in-law this evening. More talk about "how to be normal". Apparently, I shouldn't really talk about myself - ever. He thinks that might help. I pointed out that this is what got me into this mess in the first place... Just keep others talking about themselves. He also didn't understand why LGBT people have to make such a big deal out of, or even mention, being L, G, B, or T. He wondered if I couldn't be a "little more of my old self."

He was also curious why I didn't just go stealth. (He didn't know that term, of course, but it's what he meant.) I just told him "God 'n stuff."

None of this was too useful.

This was all pretty awkward until I started telling funny stories about stuff that happens in the gayborhood. None of that was normal from his perspective, but I got him laughing, and things improved. (Stories about crossdressers I know were especially well received, much to my surprise.)

I realized that I was pretty tense for the first part of the evening. I think it takes me a while to relax around people - or at least people from my past. Although he doesn't really understand this, transition is pretty stressful, life as trans is pretty stressful, and some of the support things I do are very stressful. I also think I tense up around some people, expecting rejection. Or perhaps it's more like I put up a wall emotionally, until I have some trust that I'm not going to get hurt. I dunno, I think I have some fear / rejection issues going. It would help if I actually felt fear, but I don't seem to much anymore. I sort of notice it's absence, like a missing tooth. But I certainly react to it in a sense. I stay kind of tense and ready for something just horrible to happen at any moment. Not necessarily to me - but something just awful I'll have to deal with, nevertheless.

I don't really think he understood much of what I tried to tell him about my current life. So I told funny stories about his Dad. (I miss his Dad, he was really a weird guy.) I listened to him tell me about his relationship, and about his daughter's. I didn't say a lot about mine - a little bit. I don't think he's ready to meet my boyfriend. The idea that I have a boyfriend bugs him - I think because he still doesn't really see me as a woman.

I think maybe he's right. Many of the people from my past relate to nothing about my present life. They'd care more, I think, if I won a Ping-Pong tournament, or some such thing. I'll just stop talking about myself - at all. (This is harder than it sounds - people tend to ask questions.) I'll have to prepare more amusing stories before I see a couple of my other old friends next week - the ones who posed the "normal person stuff" question to me. Maybe I can find some utterly inane topic to talk about - preferably one that won't take up much of my time to research, but will somehow be interesting to a couple of cis-het people. Maybe "what did y'all do for the fourth of july holiday?", and if asked about what I did, simply answer with the non-controversial parts "I slept late!"

I'd talk about my kids, but I really have very little idea about what's really going on with either of them.

I guess we'll see how it goes.

At a certain point, I begin to ask myself "why am I doing this to myself?", and "what kind of relationship can I possibly expect to have with people who really don't want to know the real me?"

I know I used to be able to fake this stuff before, in the past. I don't seem to be able to do that so well anymore.

[Michelle789]

Awwww, I love your cat. He/she's so cute :) Meow :)

[Aprilrain]

Yeah, why are you doing this to yourself?
Just dump them and be done with it.

[PaulaQ]

Yeah, why are you doing this to yourself?

I don't know. I begin to think you are right. I hadn't spoken to them in over a year.

I do miss my old friends, that's about the only part of my old life I miss. I guess I forgot about what it was like to deal with them.

I'm giving it one last try. I'll have dinner with a couple of them next week, and I'll talk about that afterwards here. These two are very conservative. Should be a laugh riot. Hopefully sticking a fork into an electrical socket won't turn out to be more fun.

I have a realized I have a lot of friends in my current life. I love my friends, and really, I love my life, challenges and all. I like the fact that I'm having lunch next week with a gender-fluid drag queen because I'm the only person he's met that has ever just listened to him talk about his feelings, instead of treating him like he's going to transition.

My boyfriend and I are going to a backyard BBQ this weekend, at the home of a couple of our friends. I'll probably make homemade ice cream. I'll meet my mom for lunch on Sunday.

Pretty normal stuff.

[Ally 2112]

If it is normal for you then it is normal do what makes you feel good about yourself .Wish all the best ! :)

[PaulaQ]

Tonight I have dinner with "Mr. & Mrs. Normal." I don't have really high hopes for this - as Pat, my boyfriend, pointed out, it says a lot that they don't wish to meet him, at least not yet.

Its been over two years since I came out to them.

[flatlander_48]

Its been over two years since I came out to them.

That line from the westerns comes to mind:

"The old ways die hard."

DeeAnn

[Megan G]

Your doing the right thing by going out to dinner with them and allowing them the chance to hopefully reconnect with you Paula, give it time...

I had a close friend that I have known since the first day of kindergarten (36 years ago) come over last night and we talked for hours. At one point the discussion got to redefining relationships and a good point was brought up. Life for me will never be "normal", at least in the sense of what it was like for the first 41 years. Now it is up to us as friends to redefine it and find the "new normal".

I hope your dinner goes well......

Megan

[PaulaQ]

Thanks Megan and DeeAnn. I'll post about how it goes tonight. I think it'll be interesting. My friends - I'm meeting two of them tonight, a man and wife, knew me when I was in high school. C, the husband, met me in high school, when we were both really obsessed by computers. We both loved science fiction, and reggae music. It's something we shared, plus many years of history, for a very long time now. D, his wife, I met a bit later, but I met her before she had started college. I attended their wedding, I've watched their children grow and move out of their home. They were there, 25 years ago when I went into recovery for alcoholism, and they encouraged me to seek treatment. This is a lot of history to overcome. They had quite a bit of investment in the relationship emotionally. We were really close.

In a very real sense, though, their friend is just gone. The person they are presented with now looks and sounds very different. My interests are very different now - and in ways that conflict with some of their basic values. They are conservative and Christian. I used to be a fairly conservative straight guy - as far as they knew. I'm a bisexual transgender woman now, and a liberal transgender rights activist. They don't need to know all of that stuff - but the "woman" part is obvious, and my activism is all over my Facebook page. I don't do the same stuff for entertainment anymore. I think the last bit of science fiction I watched was the movie "Interstellar", which I purchased because my boyfriend wanted to see it. I don't need to watch some movie about a person living in some surreal situation, with some horrible problem that could only happen in the future - I feel like I'm living that now!

Being a woman greatly changes the dynamic between me and C - married straight guys of our age mostly just don't have really close women friends. A lot of wives complain if their husbands are talking to some woman for hours, which is what he and I used to do. D is a good friend, but she always spent more time talking to my ex-wife. But now, in the weird world of straight people, I guess she and I should be the ones who are really close, but there's 30 years of past relationship that says otherwise, and I'm sure that makes it all feel really weird.

I think that if we'd never met in the past, and were we to meet today, for the first time, there's very little chance we'd become friends. They are nice people. They live in a lovely home in a suburb of Dallas. Their neighbors are nice. Their kids are great. They are involved in their church and their community.

I find the sameness of it all, from the soulless housing subdivisions to the ever-present Starbuck's on every other corner, to the uniformity of most of the folks in that area to be suffocating. That world is just not for me. I get homesick for it from time to time, because I did live there, and I did have friends, but It's just not my world anymore.

I'm not judging them - they are happy and I'm happy for them. But I lived in that world for so very long. I can't do it anymore.

We'll see how it goes.

[flatlander_48]

I think M G's point is well taken. It is possible for us to redefine a relationship, and that can be a very powerful thing. But, it assumes both sides are agreeable to doing that and it's a function of how much flexibility they have. Some folks can just let things be and others can't.

To me, it would seem to be a great opportunity to have different conversations; something that could change ones perspective and maybe bring about different thinking. Unfortunately, I guess everyone isn't wacked as I am.

There is a commercial that IBM did some years back and it still pops up every now and then. It goes something like this:

Two guys are sitting in their pickup trucks out in a field and they're having a conversation. They run a feed store.

Bill: You know, it might be good for us to be on the internet. It would make it real convenient for people to see what we can do and what we sell.

Joe: What do you want to do that for? We already sell to everybody in the county!

Bill: Joe, you ever been OUT of the county?

silence

Bill: Joe!

Joe: Hush, Ahm Thankin'...


Not to cast aspersions on anyone, but there is a lot of experience out there in the world. But, you have to be out in the world to experience it. The subdivisions and the uniformity speak to how we purposefully screen ourselves from those opportunities and limit our existence. Sad, but that's how the human mechanism often works.

DeeAnn

[Jorja]

I am as normal as anyone else!