It still rankles me !

[Teresa]

As we get new members joining up some of old stories keep cropping up !
I realise I'm not talking about every member but for some of us the one thing that rankles me is the way we allow ourselves to be treated in an infantile way by our partners !
Whatever part of the gender spectrum we're on we were dealt those cards either at birth or soon after, we have to play that hand as best we can, there's no going back to the pile to change cards .
Many of us started dressing in childhood, as we grow up we develop feelings of guilt because we apparently haven't let a childish habit go but for many it isn't childish it's our sexuality developing, men can have many hang ups but as long as he can perform his male part much of this may be overlooked.
Some members go to great lengths in asserting the honesty issue , we should be upfront with our partners before a serious relationship develops but that argument goes both ways, women aren't immune to hangups and deception but for some reason the man is always the villain of the peace and not the woman !
So we enter marriage not daring to reveal that we have a dressing habit we let ourselves become deceptive and secretive over something that is part of our identity ! We are terrified if one slip up occurs, instead of being adult about it we allow ourselves to go on being treated like naughty schoolboys, which can only make matters worse long term.
From my own experience I feel my wife is far unhappier trying to contain and not accept my Cding, she repeatedly says she only wants the man she married, her attitude is destroying the part she wants to see and in the process making me desperately unhappy, it really isn't through a lack of trying to be honest with her .
I find it so frustrating that her attitude is to treat me like a child and control when I can and can't dress as if it's a whim I can turn on and off ! Women just don't appear to get it that you live with it everyday, it sits in the pit of your stomach , a continual background ache !
After so many years of these feelings I'm really not going to allow myself to be treated like a child anymore, I've faced reality over it she will have to start and do the same !

[Marcelle]

Hi Teresa,

I understand your angst and I have always been a big proponent of the "there are two people with equal footing in the relationship". Yes, we can all agree that downloading this on your SO irrespective of it being the day you meet or 20 years later can be a bit of a shock. Some SOs will run screaming for the hill and others will stay either fully supportive or points in between. It is at that juncture that the CDer has to decide what they want out of the relationship by way of compromise. Some will accept total control of their SO on when and how they dress because they choose that option for the survival of the relationship. Others will not and will seek agreement/compromise to keep the relationship whole.

Where I get a bit "miffed" is when you read comments akin to "you have to do what your SO wants as she is putting up with a lot". This to me implies that we should be ashamed of who we are (dealt a hand of cards we did not ask for) so it is okay to dictate terms sight unseen? :facepalm: On this I will call BS. Yes, we should not be acting like petulant children demanding to do whatever we want but then again, neither should the SO. Don't get me wrong . . . I get it . . . we are doing something some may see as weird, awkward or strange but that is who we are . . . can't change it anymore than we can change the rotation of the planet. So where does that leave the couple? Compromise, boundaries, limits or whatever you wish to call it. However, those are a two-way street IMHO and nobody has the right to run roughshod over another (CDer or SO). If compromise can only be reached to the emotional detriment of one party over the other, then perhaps it is time to call it a day. In the end, even though one party may "settle" for something they don't truly want to save the relationship, it will most likely bleed out into the relationship as resentment, anger and frustration with the end result being dissolution of the relationship anyway. Compromises are just that, each party gives a little to ensure fairness and tranquility.

Hugs

Isha

[Teresa]

Isha,
I'm sure no one called your efforts to secure a greater understanding and acceptance within the Canadian Forces as acting on a childish whim !
Yet so many allow this to happen in their relationships, OK some may actually enjoy the submissive role but some of the stories of being taken on shopping trips as if they're going to a sweet shop ( Candy Store ) as a special treat by their mothers doesn't sound right ! Going as consenting adult partners is a totally different matter I can understand how that can help a couple come to terms and form a closer relationship .

[stefan37]

The reason many are struggling is they were not honest with their partner before they got married. Many keep it a secret for years and when it is disclosed many emotions run through the partners mind. Some can get past it. Others feel they have been deceived. And the list goes on.
How many posts do we see? Where do you hide your stash?. Certainly if a CD had this need since an early age. It was absolutely their responsibility to disclose it to their future mate. To hide it and cry foul years into the marriage when the partner doesn't want any part of it is disingenuous.

The solution is either deal with what makes their partner comfortable. Or part ways to reach whatever level of comfort is needed.

[Teresa]

Stefan,
The problem with that is I went from a relationship where my partner was fully on board, she knew what it did for me and she got what she wanted, yes it did work well !
As it was the second relationship that Cding was accepted I naively thought that most women were Ok with it but as it turns out my wife is not one of them . The first twenty years of my marriage were so hectic that my dressing was just snatched moments, like so many for some reason we hit our forties and decide that you want more and decide to come out . Up to that point there was no stash to find as I was wearing my wife's clothes, funnily she has no problem with that when I told her !

[~Joanne~]

the one thing that rankles me is the way we allow ourselves to be treated in an infantile way by our partners !

I agree with you, I always have on this. Even if you take the CDing out of it, this is an issue in a lot of relationships out there. How anyone would let another person, let alone your "Partner", lead or dictate who you are, what you can or can not do, when you can or can not do, or ask for permission on just about anything, is beyond me.

That's one of the major reasons I love my SO so much, she doesn't have a lot of the hang ups that a lot of women around here do. we do not ask each other for permission to do anything, as a couple we will discuss things before hand if a discussion is ever needed. Never will we say "can I go with ____ to _____" or anything else along those lines.

When it comes to CDing, she has no problems at all about it, she knows this is part of me, she knows where this begins and where it ends because I have told her such, and since she loves me, she accepts this unconditionally about me as I would about her. Fear is what keeps most sister's from telling their SO's or future brides, if she can't understand that, or the reason why it was kept a secret, I would say there may be bigger issues in the relationship.

I agree that you should come clean about your CDing before you walk that isle though, dating? I don't see the need. Once the cat is out of the bag, there's no going back and while dating you may be opening yourself up to a world of hurt. You don't owe them anything while dating let alone your biggest secrets no matter what they may be.

[Dianne S]

Teresa,

No-one is forcing you to stay married. You have posted quite a bit about how unhappy you are with your wife. You need to decide whether or not it's bad enough to leave, or whether you honestly think you can make a go of it.

[Melissa73]

i understand your concerns. I have to say i was the lucky one, when i came out to the wife, after 1.5 years of marriage, she had come out herself as gay. I still thought she would consider me a pervert, but she took it well and even gave me some clothes she didnt wear anymore. :) (Considering i had purged before we married.)

[Jean 103]

I was visiting with my ex yesterday who said that she is not my ex as we are still married and have been for 31 years. We have been separated just short of a year now. She does not understand, is not accepting and never will be. I told her I’m not going to argue with her or try and change her mind as I know this would be a complete waste of time. Compromise for me would be don’t even think about it. With the distance that had developed between us over the years I could no longer continue to do that. As she likes to do she jumps from the beginning to the end. I simply told her I didn’t get to where I am today overnight. If you have lived with your SO as long as I lived with mine you should know what she is capable of, asking her to go beyond that is like banging your head against the wall. You’re only going to get a head ace. For me when she said it was over and asked me to move out, that was the line in the sand, as she said time to move on. It is not easy and looking back I long for what we once had too, but as I don’t have a time machine it’s not in the cards.
Love Jean

[jigna]

I had a similar situation. however over a period of time, she is positive and allow me to wear undergarment and daily massaging my tiny little ones and my bra is slowly getting filled up.

[CynthiaD]

No one can treat you as a child unless you let them. That being said, every marriage is different. Whatever works for you is good.

[jenni_xx]

Teresa

Did you tell you wife about your dressing the moment you met her?

[Dawn cd]

You wrote, "she only wants the man she married." But of course the need to crossdress was a part of that man, even then. She may not have recognized it--and indeed you may not have fully recognized it. But it was there. When we accept each other in marriage (or friendship) we have to accept the whole person--even those parts that mature and emerge as we grow. Growth always involves change. No human being is going to be frozen in time as the same person she/he was at the age of 21 or 25. Growth IS change. To expect our spouse to be the same, always, is to treat him or her as a juvenile.

[jenni_xx]

You wrote, "she only wants the man she married." But of course the need to crossdress was a part of that man, even then. She may not have recognized it--and indeed you may not have fully recognized it. But it was there. When we accept each other in marriage (or friendship) we have to accept the whole person--even those parts that mature and emerge as we grow. Growth always involves change. No human being is going to be frozen in time as the same person she/he was at the age of 21 or 25. Growth IS change. To expect our spouse to be the same, always, is to treat him or her as a juvenile.

"We have to accept the whole person - even those parts that mature and emerge as we grow"

Really? I can't express how much I disagree with you. The point is that your partner thought she knew the whole person and as a consequence she WAS ACCEPTING that "whole person" that she (thought) she knew.

[SometimesJen]

When we accept each other in marriage (or friendship) we have to accept the whole person--even those parts that mature and emerge as we grow.

I partially agree. When we form friendships and relationships, we accept what we know of that person as long as we care to. If something comes up that we can't accept, we're free to move on, as are they. This isn't being childish, it's having the maturity to know what you need and how you want to be treated, and taking the steps to do so.

[Marcelle]

Teresa

Did you tell you wife about your dressing the moment you met her?

Jenni,

While indirectly related, I don't see this as really pertinent to the OP's post. Just because someone did not disclose to their SO about something they may or may not have even known about does not give one party (the SO) the right to lord it over the other. If the SO finds out later in life and cannot abide by it then she/he is free to move on with their life. If they can accept in on certain terms then both parties have the right to negotiate the agreement . . . that is what a relationship is about. Again this "liar liar pants on fire you reap what you sow" sentiment implies we are wrong, weird, and deviant IMHO and does nobody any good.

Isha

[jenni_xx]

Hi Isha

I feel it is relevant. It's one thing saying that "if the SO finds out later in life and cannot abide by it then she/he is free to move with their life". It's not as simple as that.

[Marcelle]

Jenni,

Yes it is. If the SO feels she/he cannot get past the CDing then there are only two options: (1) come to some sort of mutually agreed upon compromise for dressing; or (2) end the relationship. My point was that just because it was not disclosed on day one, does not give the SO the right to dictate terms. To do so will only cause resentment, anger, bitterness and the relationship will most likely end regardless.

Isha

[jenni_xx]

Isha

Depends on which way one wishes to look at it. By not disclosing everyone about oneself to a partner, could it not be said that that is akin to dictating terms? Say I enter a relationship, and choose not to disclose certain aspects about myself. Am I not dictating how much of myself I am choosing to disclose to my partner?

As for walking away, yes of course that is an option, but at what cost. What exactly is the person who can't "abide by it" losing when he/she finds out something about their partner that changes the relationship and perception of the person that they thought they knew? Or rather, changes the perception of their partner that their partner expressed to them throughout their time together?

Any partner who walks away, I doubt that they have ever done so without regret, without a heavy heart, and without wishing that it would have worked out. No one goes into a relationship thinking about the day it will end after all.

[Dianne S]

Any partner who walks away, I doubt that they have ever done so without regret, without a heavy heart, and without wishing that it would have worked out.

I walked away from a 23-year marriage. Of course I was upset and had a heavy heart for a while, but now that I have some distance, I have no regrets whatsoever. I feel that without a doubt, it was the best course of action.

[chris63]

One thing to note is humans are not static entities. We evolve, change and grow over time. Irrespective of CD, I'm not the same person my wife married and neither is she. The joys and pain of life have changed us.

I didn't tell my wife before we married because I thought it was in the past and under control. I dressed in secret in her clothes off and on for years. I thank God my wife has been accepting and encouraging now that I've come out. We are both changing and continue to grow.

[Teresa]

Dianne,
Your question #7 why do I stay in a relationship ?
My wife needs me more than she will admit, she needs help and support with the children and grandchildren without that need I would have walked away ! Underneath I'm sure she's aware of this . In retrospect we should have parted when I first came out to her twenty years ago, perhaps she hasn't been honest with me , I don't think I've really got over the hurt of feeling rejected and unloved and the eventual attempt to end my life ! Maybe that sounds childish but when you hit those depths anything is possible !

Jeni_xx,
To answer #12 , my reply #5 explains that but I will add that the GF mentioned I was engaged to , also she was the best friend of my wife at school . She may or may not have mentioned the more intimate CDing details of our relationship but my wife certainly knew how sexually active we were ! She has said on more than one occasion that I should have married her , we have joked about that but perhaps my wife should have been honest with me then and admitted she didn't have the same sexual appetite ! Like I said the honesty and deception works both ways !!

[Dianne S]

My wife needs me more than she will admit, she needs help and support with the children and grandchildren without that need I would have walked away !

Actually, that can be a bad and dangerous reason to stay in a relationship. One of the reasons I stayed so long in my marriage was that I thought my wife could not cope on her own. I eventually realized that sublimating my own happiness for her excessive needs was doing neither one of us any favours. I also realized I was scared of leaving and using concern for her needs as a rationalization to suppress my own needs.


I don't think I've really got over the hurt of feeling rejected and unloved and the eventual attempt to end my life ! Maybe that sounds childish but when you hit those depths anything is possible !

Wow, I'm really sorry it came to that, and I can't imagine what it must have been like. I hope you do find happiness in future, whether together with your wife or on your own.

[KellyJameson]

Crossdressers are perceived as feminine men. Feminine men often elicit feelings of disgust and contempt from the belief that they cannot be protectors, are cowardly and morally weak combined with it being believed that to be feminine is to be weak because "women are the weaker, inferior sex"

For a man to embrace femininity he is rejecting his heritage which is a greater sin than for a woman who is born into it. Men "chose/choose to be effeminate" It is volitional. (This is actually a false believe IMHO because they are created by nature to be this way and probably it is natures way of reducing violence among men)

A weak man is one who is dominated by a woman. Henpecked, Cockhold, Submissive, Subserviant, ect... There is humiliation in these acts, where if a woman endures the same treatment there is sympathy.

Gender is to a large degree about double standards for both sexes beause they have served the interests (or it was at least believed so) of those who have embraced the double standards in the past.

I'm often amazed by how often crossdressers do not truly understand women. They emulate women without understanding their hearts, minds and needs.

A woman enters a relationship to gain that which she does not have and this is usually not found in an effeminate man, which can actually burden her or rob her of precious resources. Decent yes (masculine with a soft side) weak no and effeminacy implies weakness.

It is not just the clothes but more so what goes with the clothes that are problematic for women.

A woman may not feel she can count on a feminine man when things become difficult and than there is the sexual component.

Women do not object to the clothes "only" but everything they symbolize and imply. It can be an affront to her sexuality and to her sense of what makes up normal relations between intimates.(husband and wife)

Women do not care about crossdressers per se but being married to one.

Even many gay men have a problem with effeminate men and to embrace femininity is to be effeminate if you are a man, even if only temporarily while you are doing it.

It is the effeminacy (which is not trusted and viewed suspiciously) that is truly the problem, not the crossdressing, but the two go hand in hand.

There is not a patriarchal society anywhere that embraces effeminacy and most if not all actively suppress it and aspects of patriarchy very much serve the interests of women.

[flatlander_48]

I'm often amazed by how often crossdressers do not truly understand women. They emulate women without understanding their hearts, minds and needs.

That is very hard to come by as we don't have the decades of socialization to fall back on. That's even tough for folks who are transitioning or have transitioned. It's a whole different mindset on how one enters the world from a female perspective. Expectations are different. Responses are different. How you relate to other people is different. Some things are fairly obvious, but others are very subtle.

DeeAnn

[LeslieSD]

A woman enters a relationship to gain that which she does not have and this is usually not found in an effeminate man, which can actually burden her or rob her of precious resources. Decent yes (masculine with a soft side) weak no and effeminacy implies weakness.

It is not just the clothes but more so what goes with the clothes that are problematic for women.

A woman may not feel she can count on a feminine man when things become difficult and than there is the sexual component.

Women do not object to the clothes "only" but everything they symbolize and imply. It can be an affront to her sexuality and to her sense of what makes up normal relations between intimates.(husband and wife)

Women do not care about crossdressers per se but being married to one.


Wow! That's very interesting and very well written!

Maybe after all the struggle, the best way to get accepted by your spouse is to MAN up and declare to world proudly your embracing of femininity. The world will respect and accept you for that. That's exactly what Caitlyn and Isha did. That starts to make sense.

Thank you!

[docrobbysherry]

Sorry to say, Teresa, but your post is just as tired as the many others I've read here and everywhere else over the years.

"We should say this and do that. We should be equals. Bla, bla, bla."

In reality, this has little to do with cding or reality. Here's reality the way I see it:
Most marriages end in divorce. And, many others stay as roommates but the love and sex r gone. Marriage is an obsolete institution. Few of us marry someone compatible for the long run. Then, we spend the rest of our lives trying to make the best of a bad situation. All the compromising, limits, rules, and other nonsense is simply ways both couples sweep the garbage under the carpet to avoid the unpleasantness of separating.

In my eyes, both u and your should be ex r cowards for staying together. My goodness! You've only so much time and you're letting it slip away! Wake up and smell reality!

[Teresa]

Sherry,
My intention wasn't to sit here and think about something that bores the pants off you , you don't have to read and pass comment over something you've read time and time again ! As I said at the start it just rankles me that the situation keeps happening , we shouldn't really let it happen when it's over something we can do nothing about, we shouldn't be made to feel like children over it !

KellyJameson,
That's an interesting reply. If you've seen some of my earlier threads you would have seen how much I tried to bury my feminine side, I worked so hard over the years I guess in denial, it's only since joining the forum a years or so ago that I realised things had to change. I feel I've earned the right to be who I am now, there's plenty of male side left but I finally want to get my identity in balance, being treated like a child is not part of that deal !

[Stephanie47]

Teresa, staying married because your wife needs you more than she will admit is not a good reason to stay in a marriage. Why does she need help from you for the sake of your children and grandchildren? Again, this is not a valid reason to stay married. Your posts always seem to be searching for some reason not to break the umbilical cord. Sure, divorce will bring a lot of uncertainty. The reason you seem to want to stay married runs parallel to the reason people stay married for the "sake of the children." "For the sake of the children?" To watch mom and dad suffer together and waste their lives for "the sake of the children" only makes the kids suffer. It wouldn't surprise me if your kids are thinking "Why in the world are mom and dad staying together?" Sometimes you make it sounds as if you're a martyr by staying married for the sake of your wife. Or, maybe you subconsciously want to make your wife suffer. If your description of your relationship is true, she sure the heck is doing her part for you to "jump ship." Maybe you need a "trial" separation to see if you and your wife can live apart financially. Is it possible since she is still working that you cannot live apart from her because you're dependent upon her salary? If you live apart or divorce will you have to rejoin the 9 to 5 work force? Will she have to postpone retirement? You realize, if you were to drop head tomorrow, she would have to deal with the financial consequences of living apart from you unless she will get a lot of life insurance.

I hope in thirty years your kids don't stick you and your wife in the same room in the same nursing home.

[Donnagirl]

Teresa,

Call her bluff... You wear the pants in this relationship, now wear the frock when you want...

Consider an adage I've come to respect more and more; 'think carefully, are you going to regret what you've done or regret what you haven't???? You only get one chance to be happy...'

Carpe Diem

[stefan37]

Call who's bluff. We have two people that have different agendas. We only get to hear from one party.

Teresa you are suffering from a condition where you have aNEED to express yourself. You know deep down you can't control it or even suppress it. Doing so causes extreme mental anguish. Sherry put it succinctly. Your situation is really not different than an individual that has to transition with an unsupporting spouse. Your choice is to continuing to deal with the mental anguish as you suppress your identity. Or separate and go your own ways and live in mental peace. The latter path will at least give you a chance at inner peace. Be aware that inner peace and happiness can be at odds.

[Dianne S]

Sherry,

Wow! You are incredibly cynical! Of course, I agree with you 100%. :)

[msniki48]

Teresa,

Have you both sought counsel? My 1st wife [ deceased ] thought I was some perv until she told her therapist....I was called in....asked questions....and my wife was told this was not going anywhere and not a joke. it truly brought us closer together. if it does not.... then your happiness must come first.

hugs

niki

[sometimes_miss]

Women just don't appear to get it that you live with it everyday, it sits in the pit of your stomach , a continual background ache!

Well, they might not 'get it' when you initially tell them, but they soon have to live with something like it AFTER you tell them. A lot of us simply don't understand how sexual attraction works, and how easy it is to screw it up. Women especially can lose the sexual desire for a guy when you mess around with what turns them on. For a some of us, our SO's have to somehow resolve the problem of wanting to remain faithful to the promise of loving us no matter what, but then having to deal with now being forced to face something about us that is a huge sexual turn off. Most men don't get this; for most of our lives, the testosterone fuels our sex drive to such a degree that once ignited, NOTHING will turn us off. Over the years I've been treated to tales of guys who continued intercourse with women who were actively vomiting or defecating. Women aren't like that; not at all. So after we 'break' what attracted them to us, they have the 'pit in their stomach' trying to reconcile how they feel, with how they believe they 'should' feel.

[Teresa]

Sometimes_miss,
If you check some of my threads in "loved ones" section you will find more of the facts of our intimacy, I do realise I may have said too much in this open section so I'm not going to repeat it here .

[Krisi]

It's understandable that your wife wants the man she married. And it's understandable that it bothers her to see you prancing around in a wig, fake boobs and high heels. You feel like it's natural, she does not. Any relationship is a compromise. We don't always get our way on everything. You seem to be at the point where neither of you is willing to compromise. It might be that it's best to go your separate ways. That's life.

You can try wearing your women's clothes around her and see what happens. She might accept it, she might yell at you and make fun of you or she might pack up and leave. You are in a better position to guess the results than anyone here.

Why don't you try it gradually - Start by wearing panties every day. Then add a bra and blouse but no forms. Then start stuffing the bra. Wear women's flats. Work up to the full presentation over a period of months or even years. And keep it indoors and to yourself and her. Don't answer the door dressed.

Best of luck.

[Badwolf]

Teresa, in terms of "deception" going both ways, I agree but only up to a point.

There are certain types of deception we are prepared for in life, others we're not. In the end in a REALLY close personal relationship it's better to see as many of these disappear as possible.

This issue is one in which most of our SO's are entering into completely unprepared. The advice to be understanding to your SO and to listen to them a bit, is especially important in couples that have been together for MANY years before this comes out, and where marriage and kids may be at stake. The reason being that emotionally speaking you both have to be sympathetic to each other.

On that I agree with Isha though, with that said there is a lot of potential (and some stories of it happening, including mine for a while), where the SO starts using fear in order to LIMIT you, not as a rational guide, for selfish reasons. For me it never went to an extreme so I really can't complain too much but I saw it happening and was open about that too. She raised all hell saying she didn't know how it made her feel, and I kept telling her that I did, but that apparently she still couldn't comprehend why I was pushing for it anyways.

It's sort of disappeared for now, but I'm not 100% sure it's really resolved.

[Lorileah]

Some members go to great lengths in asserting the honesty issue , we should be upfront with our partners before a serious relationship develops but that argument goes both ways, women aren't immune to hangups and deception but for some reason the man is always the villain of the peace and not the woman !

It rankles me too....that so many here don't see it as a trust issue allowing your SO the right to CHOOSE before you get in deep if they want to date you or not. I think it is blatantly obvious that most women don't like the idea, so not telling them is deception. Be that as it may, I was on the opposite side of that fence, where my SO kept things from me for 15 plus years. If there is ANY chance that your secret, when revealed later, will destroy the trust you have built in your marriage, why not avoid that early? Anger over not being trusted is stronger than anger of being told.

You put the onus on the men, but trust me, outside of this forum secrets on either side can destroy marriages. Ignorance may be bliss but finding out, especially from another source, hurts badly. You say you aren't going to be treated like a child, and yet that is EXACTLY what you did to her by not allowing her the ability to decide BEFORE you built a relationship.

I pray no one here has to suffer finding out a something about their SO that maybe would not have changed their feelings toward you 30 years ago, but cuts to the bone now. It took me a year to reconcile mine (and as you can see from this, there is still a scab). You don't want to be treated like a child? Act like an adult and be HONEST.

[Teresa]

Lorileah,
I tried to answer that in #5 and #22 .
I married young and we were both possibly naive, as I said my wife knew some of my exploits as she knew my previous GF! Otherwise she was very inexperienced with men and possibly not open minded because of her upbringing , also at the time I didn't realise that CDing was a problem because of having two relationships that worked fine with it !

[Lorileah]

Noted, most members here are from a generation where be TG was taboo. I get that. But the point of the quote I used you stated that men took the brunt of the honesty thing. That may be true here at CD.com, but this is a small island.

[Badwolf]

Lorileah: Good point. Look at Feminist movements and claims, and generally the claim is the opposite.

Hell we even still read the Scarlet Letter in school which is somewhat about the subject. Adam and Eve is another example. There are even stories that appear to be false where the woman was being deceptive, that have gained urban legend status:

http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/uglybaby.asp

[Maria 60]

Hey there Teresa, I don't really know you or your relationship with your wife, but I have read a lot of your threads and you have commented on a lot of my threads. From your comments and reading your post I could tell you are a real common sense person and you come across to me like a person who is willing to compromise for what you want, and that's what makes a relationship work. I believe you have read that I told my wife one week back from our honeymoon, surprisingly she was good about it. The problem came a year later when Maria was excelling at a fast pace, and maybe she thought it was a fad and was going to stop and told me maybe she shouldn't have gave me the green light. I told her green light or no green light this isn't a joke this is for real and it is who I am and it's not going away and I can't change who I am. Not having any children yet and telling her how much I loved her, I told her I can change other things In my life and I was willing to compromise but I can't and don't want to stop and if she wasn't willing to work things out she has a big discussion to make. We both drew lines in the sand and that was almost thirty years ago. I believe if I didn't play that card I believe I would be in the same boat as you. By no means has it been a smooth road we patched a lot of bumps along the way, but after all that is a relationship working things out and making sure the other person is happy and not be selfish. I only wrote you this because I can't really comment on your problem because I don't know you or your relationship but if the relationship is strong it should work out. I am afraid you are going to have to show your teeth a bit and maybe get a little aggressive and see what comes out of it. It sure can't get any worse. I believe giving my wife that choose was the changing point. I hope it All works out nobody wants to see a relationship end and most of all I hope you find the happiness you deserve.