Getting misgendered in the gayborhood

[PaulaQ]

There was a big rally here in Dallas for marriage equality yesterday. At least 2000 people. I attended it, and ran into just a whole lot of people I know. Really, it would've been an absolutely perfect day, but for one thing - the skinny gay waiter at the restaurant where we ate before the rally who asked my boyfriend: "Excuse me, I mean no disrespect, but I'm not sure what to call you. Are you a man or a woman?"

My boyfriend is, in fact trans, but I've never seen him not pass before. There are several clues to his gender that the waiter seems to have overlooked:
1. Dude face
2. Dude voice
3. Beard
4. No tits

I assume the waiter clocked him because I'm a frequent patron of that place, and lots of folks in the neighborhood know me, and have watched my transition over the past couple of years. This angers me.

As happy as I was yesterday, and as much hope as that ruling gives me for our future, this stupid event in the restaurant reminded me of how far we have yet to go.

My boyfriend doesn't want me to make a big deal out of this. I know the manager of the place really well (as in I have his cellphone number well). I'm tempted to say something about the incident, because it really upset him, and because I don't want other trans people who might go to that place to get the same treatment. It probably wouldn't have been as upsetting to my boyfriend if he hadn't just spent $6K on top surgery - in fact he's still recovering from that.

Thoughts? Do I talk to the manager or not? Do I talk to the waiter in question?

[Nigella]

A little insensitive in the manner in which he asked, but if he had called it wrong without asking, he would have been damned anyway. Gendering is done on so many levels, both conscious and sub conscious.

Respect your boyfriends wishes, if he does not want to make a deal of it, then why would you want to cause him distress by going against his choice?

If you want to say something, why not mention "trans etiquette" in a general manner, no specifics, just a few pointers on how to ask if they are not sure how to address folks.

[stefan37]

Why do you feel you need to fight everyone's battles? Your boyfriend doesn't want to make an issue, then you shouldn't either. The waiter was obviously confused and rather than use the wrong pronoun. Asked which one would be appropriate. Humans are capable of gendering others in a heartbeat. Some are capable of recognizing even subtle cues.

Us MTF spend huge sums of money to change our forehead. The single most noticeable difference between males and females. If your boyfriend's forehead is unmistakably female all the other male cues may not be too that person. I spent 22 grand on my face and I still occasionally get misgendered initially. I take those miscues and see what can I do different.

You hang around Trans individuals and gays in their environment. The degrees of expressions and orientations span a huge spectrum.

[PaulaQ]

but if he had called it wrong without asking,

Why even use pronouns if unsure? There was no reason for it in the conversation. Or he could've asked me, since the manager of the place had introduced me to this waiter 2-3 weeks back, and he's waited on me several times.

My boyfriend thinks the guy did it on purpose, to be rude. I guess that's possible - there are gay guys that really dislike trans men. I think this is not unlikely - this is an iconic gay owned restaurant in the gay part of town. There are lots of butch lesbians who are pretty darn masculine who go to this place. I think it's quite unlikely that he'd have asked one of them the same question. There's plenty of gender-bending of all sorts that goes on down there, all the time. He should've known better, and thinking about it he probably did know better. Particularly since my boyfriend really isn't visibly trans.


If your boyfriend's forehead is unmistakably female all the other male cues may not be too that person.

247252

OK, here's a picture of us together, from yesterday. I dunno, I really don't see it.


Why do you feel you need to fight everyone's battles? Your boyfriend doesn't want to make an issue, then you shouldn't either.

I don't want to fight his battle, he doesn't need that, and he's never going back there. It was the first time he'd been misgendered in 20 years by someone who didn't know his history. Between getting hit on by gay men, and then this, I think he's had quite enough of that neighborhood.

I send other trans people over to this restaurant all the time, so I care about how we get treated there.

[Rachelakld]

My thoughts, does anyone really win a war?
what wins more points - being nasty or nice?
what's the better educator - nasty or nice?

For me I prefer to nicely try to educate people on the spot, rather than cause trouble (trouble is my fall back plan if being nice fails).

[Michelle789]

My boyfriend, who is trans, passes really well, but one of my friends clocked him. He later told me that he couldn't tell if my boyfriend is a guy or a girl, and that he thought that he was FTM. I said that my bf is a guy, because I didn't want to out him. I think that guy probably clocked my boyfriend because he was with me and I'm trans.

[flatlander_48]

Why do you feel you need to fight everyone's battles?

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Pastor Martin Niemoller





OK, here's a picture of us together, from yesterday. I dunno, I really don't see it.

You guys are fine. It's the one in the middle with the caffeine overdose I'd be worried about...

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

My thoughts, does anyone really win a war?
what wins more points - being nasty or nice?

Well, I am not trying to fight a war here.

I have two conflicting imperatives:
1. Honor my boyfriends wishes and say nothing.
2. Inform my friend, the manager of the restaurant about the problem, because it might not be an isolated event.

I don't really want the kid to lose his job or anything ridiculous like that. Educating the person at the time wasn't really possible without making a scene. The place was busy, my boyfriend was furious, and we were with several other people. Dealing with it right then would've been the wrong call, I believe.

[Nigella]

I still believe that, despite how you feel about the individual who misgendered your bf, you should leave alone. To go against your bf's wishes just does not sit right, after all is he not more important to you than a stranger.

Having said that, I believe you will do as you wish and feel is the right thing for you to do.

[Katey888]

Your BF doesn't want a fuss made, which you can respect to some degree by going to your bud, the manager.

Go to the manager and tell him you're not making a big fuss, you don't want to get the waiter in trouble, but... he needs some sensitivity training. You're both a little upset, but you really want to be sure that it doesn't happen to anyone else because you wouldn't want that to reflect badly on the reputation of your bud, the manager, and his establishment.

If he's a decent man-manager, he'll deal with it his way.

Simples! :)

Sorry you both had to experience it though... :hugs:

Katey x

[Ann Louise]

Gosh, I don't see it as a biggie really. Gay dudes can be real Class-A jerks about the trans thing. If you wish to educate the poor misguided soul I would suggest the two of you going back and flagrantly getting that waiter's table again and again. You can turn it into pronoun training for him. Cute boyfriend, btw :)

[Starling]

Why even use pronouns if unsure?...Particularly since my boyfriend really isn't visibly trans...

Amen on the pronouns, Paula. As for your boyfriend's look: even if the waiter thought he spotted a vestigial FTM cue, it's obvious that your BF is, at the very, very least, effectively presenting male. The waiter is a jerk. Given that, I would guess he won't have to wait much longer till someone socks him on the nose.

:) Lallie

PS: You look gorgeous, and your BF looks like a great guy.

[Badtranny]

Let me throw something in here.

I met your man, and I can say definitively that dude does NOT look like a lady.

He's awesome and a keeper as far as I'm concerned, but please allow me to defend the waiter for a moment.
The trans thing isn't just new for straight America, it's fairly new for Gay America as well. In the recent past gender benders have been pretty much ALL queer. Bull Dykes and Femmy Queens have traditionally identified as women and men regardless of their presentation. There was a time when calling a butch lesbian "sir" would earn you a black eye.

Yes your guy is FtM, yes he passes perfectly, but for whatever reason, Mr Waiter though it best to be sure before he earned himself a black eye.

...Or he was just being an ass.

Either way, it ain't no thing.

[Aprilrain]

I lost all interest in hanging out with queenie gay guys after being twice compared with drag queens. Most of them just don't get it. My female friends never do shit like that and my gender never comes up with all the straight men I encounter.

[PaulaQ]

Ok, I've calmed down a bit - we are pretty sure the waiter was being disrespectful, and we have some idea why. Subsequent events have given me an idea about why this probably happened.

I got upset about this because effectively my boyfriend transitioned 40 years ago. He's unused to micro-aggressions in his life, most people, throughout his life have treated him as a man. For pretty normal reasons, he is sensitive about this. He just isn't used to random strangers misgendering him. Anyway, the incident made him really upset. He got over it, but I'm over protective of people in my life so it upset me.

We were leaving a restaurant tonight in the mixed Bishop Arts District. Lots of straight people here, but lots of gay folks too. So we're standing outside talking, and this man who'd also been in the restaurant walks up to us, and asks my boyfriend if he knows of any nearby gay bars. He was pretty obviously cruising him, but he was very polite, and really a rather pleasant young man. My boyfriend is really straight. He had no idea where the nearest gay bar was. In fact, he probably couldn't name a gay bar in the city. So he stammered a little bit, pointed at the bar across the street, which was wholly unsuitable despite being owned by a couple of gay guys, and I jumped in and told the guy where to go - Barbara's Pavillion about 0.5 miles away, and also gave him a pointer to the main drag.

So at this point, my boyfriend is wondering "do I look like a gay man?" He couldn't imagine why that guy approached him that way. I did point out that he's an attractive man, which is what gay men like, but that didn't help. And then he told me that he'd noticed the guy in the restaurant because some huge, disapproving straight dude had been staring at the guy, scowling. Well, the gay dude apparently didn't notice that, but I bet he did notice my boyfriend looking at him. He is a cop, so he has a rather direct stare. It's not really rude, but it could be seen that way. Well apparently it was enough to ping "interest!" on this dude's gaydar.

So the evening you visited us, Melissa, we'd actually had a run-in with the same waiter who misgendered my guy. Someone made some noise behind us, and my boyfriend looked over to see what it was. (Someone had slammed a gate. It startled us.) The waiter was over in that general direction talking on his cellphone, and I bet my BF looked at him. Apparently the waiter took it as a hostile glare, because he came over and asked if he'd been talking too loud on his phone. We told him no, but the whole thing seemed to annoy him for some reason.

Thinking back on it, I really think these folks probably noticed the rather unsubtle way he looks at other people. There have been a couple of other times he's gotten reactions from people who've noticed him noticing them, some of them hilarious.

I think y'all are right, and I am just going to leave this alone. I will go back to the place, because I like it. If the waiter mentions the incident, or I have any further issues with him, I'll talk to him or the manager about it.


I lost all interest in hanging out with queenie gay guys after being twice compared with drag queens.

Oh yeah, I'm quite certain most of the guys who know me here don't understand that I'm not a drag queen. I hang out in that area largely because I ended up with my dear, departed gay uncle's condo. I don't intend to stay in the neighborhood forever. I have made some nice friends, but in general, I don't pay much attention to what they say about me, because I know it's usually going to be stupid. Well-intended, but just dumb.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

The words the waiter used, if you're remembering them accurately, seem to me to be nothing more than straight, polite, honest communication- refreshingly straight and polite IMO. Nowadays that's an increasingly rare thing, in a muddled society which advocates expressions like 'waitperson', 'actor' for actress, and 'learning facilitator' for teacher, and where simple communication is increasingly becoming a minefield. I understand that your boyfriend was upset, but frankly if at his age he can't roll with something like that, it's nobody's responsibility but his own!

I have a soft spot for waitpersons- their job is hell, the pay is crap, the hours are long, and they are expected to behave like Zen priests for every minute of every shift, while an endless stream of customers do what customers do. You can't please all the people all the time.

[PaulaQ]

I understand that your boyfriend was upset, but frankly if at his age he can't roll with something like that, it's nobody's responsibility but his own!


I dunno about that. A lot of the trans men I know are incredibly sensitive about not being perceived as men. I know trans women are too - but being misgendered really upsets them. I think they perceive it as even worse of a slight than we do, if you can imagine that. Impugning a straight cis-guy's manhood or masculinity is sometimes an excellent way to start a fist-fight, after all. Surely you've observed this at some point in your life?

We can't say whether or not that was the waiter's intent. But that's how he took it.

By the way, this holds true even for the gay trans men I know. I see gay cis guys misgender each other all the freakin' time - "HAY GIRL!" This type of greeting is appreciated by no gay trans man I know. Quite the contrary, and even if the person making the statement really intends to treat the trans man as a fellow gay male.

[flatlander_48]

Conversely, crossdressers DO like to be misgendered. It's a whole different set of circumstances...

DeeAnn

[Eryn]

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist....

Flatlander, We're talking about someone being misgendered in a restaurant, not about being hauled away to a death camp. Huge difference there.

Most misgendering is due to ignorance, the rest is due to maliciousness. In neither case is it really productive to get combative over it.

Paula, your boyfriend has made his wishes known and I think that it would be best to honor them.

[kkaye]

It will always be these kind of things in Gayborhood outings. In Houston,s Montrose district the straight and non-genderbenders are the ones with your story.

[flatlander_48]

Flatlander, We're talking about someone being misgendered in a restaurant, not about being hauled away to a death camp. Huge difference there.

Most misgendering is due to ignorance, the rest is due to maliciousness. In neither case is it really productive to get combative over it.

Paula, your boyfriend has made his wishes known and I think that it would be best to honor them.

Note the specific quote that was referenced. You're missing the context. It has to do with speaking up. That is the whole point of what the Pastor wrote.

Read it again.

DeeAnn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

every time you pull out that same quote I just laugh.

Your condescension towards legitimate statements is getting old too

You are aware first off that Paula and her boyfriend speak out every day just by living. And you are aware that you are comparing the murders of many millions of people to a misgendering in a Restraurant

[Eryn]

I know the quote well, though the first part is often omitted:

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist...."

What I am asserting is that there is an important matter of degree. Misgendering is a far cry from hauling people away in cattle cars and does not warrant as strong a response. It might even be that no response is warranted if the person doing the misgendering is simply trying to get a rise out of the victim. Often, no response is the best response.

One problems with going to "LGBT friendly" establishments is that we are much more easily read by those who are part of the community, a few of whom may not be happy with our inclusion in the community.

[PaulaQ]

Could we please not make my thread subject to Godwin's Law? Please?

If I have any other problems with that waiter, I'll speak to the manager about it. Otherwise I'm dropping the matter.

It's really unfortunate it happened on a day we were in that neighborhood to celebrate such a big victory for LGBT people, and that it came from someone who I expected to be an ally. That put a damper on things. It was a reminder we have a ways to go.

My boyfriend isn't going back there, and honestly, I probably won't get him back into the neighborhood again, other than to pick me up for a date. We'll eventually move in together, and unfortunately, this stupid incident pretty much insures that as much as I love my neighborhood, I'm just not going to be able to stay here. There's no way he'll move in with me here. He doesn't really understand gay people at all, and just has no patience for some of the bullshit that gets slung his way here. He gets misgendered enough by his commanding officer and HR director at work. (His direct reports, and people in the public get it right unfailingly.) He just doesn't need that at home. He also doesn't appreciate being aggressively cruised here. It doesn't happen in his neighborhood, ever, so I'll move in with him over there, because I like his neighborhood just fine. It is pleasant being read as an anonymous straight couple there, for the most part.

[flatlander_48]

every time you pull out that same quote I just laugh.

Your condescension towards legitimate statements is getting old too

You are aware first off that Paula and her boyfriend speak out every day just by living. And you are aware that you are comparing the murders of many millions of people to a misgendering in a Restraurant

This was NOT a comparison. Technically, the question I quoted and the passage that I quoted could stand without any reference to the issue that PQ raised. I clipped that specific question because I wanted to focus on why battles should be fought in the first place. Further, it was an encouragement to others to speak out and not accept complacency. That is the whole message behind what the Pastor stated. I know of no other text that makes this point so clearly.


I know the quote well, though the first part is often omitted:

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist...."

None of the versions I have seen begin like that. The Pastor did rewrite it and the text was used in different contexts. There are also a number of misquoted and incorrect versions extant.


What I am asserting is that there is an important matter of degree. Misgendering is a far cry from hauling people away in cattle cars and does not warrant as strong a response.

That's the thing. You're thinking about the ugliness that happened. Instead, focus on the point of the text. What it does is state the consequences for not speaking up and how that dynamic works. If you know of another piece if text that makes this point so specfically, please post it.


It might even be that no response is warranted if the person doing the misgendering is simply trying to get a rise out of the victim. Often, no response is the best response.

Not sure if I agree with that. When there is malice aforethought, people become emboldened by a lack of challenge. Then the question is did malice aforethought exist?

DeeAnn

[stefan37]

I'm glad you feel we should fight every Trans battle that comes our way. Are you out at work? If not, why not? Just the fact we are out 24/7. We are ambassadors that do much more than any part time cross dresser. You can't understand because you identify as male, you're okay identifying as Trans. You continually parse posts and take quotes out of context to respond. My comment to Paula in response to the event and her boyfriend's response. He wanted to let it go, so she should abide by bus wishes. Paula is way more activist than I am and I respect her decision to do so. It causes her to be identified as Trans and she has commented it causes some distress, but she is OK with that. I need to be treated as Cis and I have a long road in front. Telling all I encounter in Trans as if I'm fighting some kind of battle will retard that process. Once someone knows you are Trans the relationship changes. If you weren't misgendered before disclosure, you will most certainly be misgendered after.

[Rianna Humble]

This thread has degenerated way beyond its original topic. Thats it, thread done.