To change your brain or your body?

[sarahcsc]

The year is 2115, and scientists have discovered the region(s) in your brain responsible for the desire to engage in crossgender behaviour.

Unfortunately, society has not yet evolved to accommodate people like you and you continue to find yourself displaced and discriminated against.

You are 25 years old and feeling sad and lonely because your partner has just left you after discovering your stash of crossgender paraphernalia (ie. clothes, corsets, breast forms, chest bands etc).

In your desperation, you sought medical advice regarding your 'condition' and was surprised to learn that a pioneering group of surgeons have introduced a new surgical method to stop your crossgender behaviour once and for all. All that was needed, was to resect a tiny part of your brain.

The surgery carries little risks, not many have opted for such a surgery although the numbers are growing, and those who have had the surgery reported no desire to engage in crossgender behaviour ever again. However, there are no long term prospective studies to investigate any potential side effects.

However, you received a wedding invitation the very same night from what appeared to be a stranger. You then dialed the phone number attached to the invitation to clarify the identity of the sender, only to discover that the stranger was an old friend of yours, except he/she has undergone a complete sex reassignment surgery (SRS).

You learned that SRS has progressed a long way since it was first introduced and is now safe, affordable, and is guaranteed to satisfy.

You then brewed yourself a hot cup of tea and sat drinking it on the sofa next to your corgi. It looked into your weary eyes and gently rests its head on to your thigh.

What would you do?

a) Leave everything unchanged and continue with life the way it is.
b) Alter your brain to reflect your body
c) Alter your body to reflect your brain

[Jane G]

Alas life will never be this simple. I think as I have chosen to remain a cross dresser despite clear TS
Traits, that the same would apply. We do get the best of both words at times after all.:battingeyelashes:

[Marcelle]

Hi there,

I guess it would depend on where you fall on the TG spectrum. If you enjoy cross dressing as an outlet for emotional stress, sexual release or just plain fun and it has left you lonely and despondent, then the choice is likely more clear . . . surgery to remove the desire then picking up the pieces of your life and moving on.

However, if you truly identify with the target gender and feel you were born in the wrong body then the choice would be clear . . . SRS.

For me it is a hard call as I am caught between both worlds in that some days I identify as a woman and some days I identify as a man. If I were to seek SRS, then I would most likely wind up CDing FtM in order to express my male gender identity. So in my case I would . . . "do nothing" and remain as I am.

Cheers

Isha

[jigna]

I prefer to remain as cross dresser and not in favor of gender change.

[Judith96a]

An interesting premise!
If I were 25 & single again then, yes, there are things that I would do differently (especially if I was 25 today rather than in 1986!). However, neither SRS nor having someone mess with my brain (no matter how 'safe') would be on my 'to do' list.

[Sandie70]

Your scenario has echos of those who think that gays can be "cured" of their gayness. And with that, you can extrapolate further to all other behavioral choices that human beings indulge in... the basis of many a science fiction novel (Divergent comes immediately to mind).

Of course, being gender fluid, transgendered, transexual or a crossdresser doesn't need "correcting" so much as de-stigmatizing by society. For instance, if society had been at the stage we're at now when Alan Turing was at his peak - what more could he have accomplished in his life if he had been left alone and not been chemically castrated for being gay - if his behavior had not been "corrected."

No, our gender choices are part of who we are, and these choices are not what need correcting - it is society.

[sarahcsc]

Hi Sandie,

Perhaps it is difficult to fathom a time when brain surgery could alter our very perception of reality, but I suspect that day will come. Psychosurgery is currently being used to treat the most treatment resistant depression and who is to say if this won't extend to other 'disorders'.

The real danger then lies with society who remains largely unchecked and unopposed who are free to invent any new disorders at a whim.

Today, obesity is re-labelled as an 'addiction to food' when this could have been a evolutionary edge which helped ancient humans survive droughts and famine.

Friedrich Nietzsche said "insanity in individuals is rare, but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." And that is what we have to contend with.

I do not doubt that society is the one that needs correcting, and we form part of society hence we have the power the alter social norms. But humans are slow to progress. Take slavery for example, although it is widely accepted now that slavery is to be condemned, there are still roughly 30M slaves globally (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqEKrAkey3o), which means there are more slaves now than ever before in human history. Can we be certain that LGBT communities will stop being persecuted in the future? Or would the persecution worsen?

I am not endorsing any kind of psychosurgery at present simply because of the paucity in data surrounding it.

But in time when psychosurgery is advanced enough to alter a person's perception of reality in order to improve their quality of life, would it still not be justified then?

If our identities are shaped by our realities, then would altering a person's perception of reality be tantamount to murder?

This is a fascinating question which raises so many ethical and philosophical dilemmas.

Anyways, I digress. :) This is an intriguing topic to discuss and to get different views on.

Love,
S

[Stephanie_CD_64]

With the choices that you have available, I would opt to remain just the way I am.

However, in your future world, it sounds like the surgeons could do much more. Perhaps perfect breast augmentation, waist reduction, butt augmentation, etc. I might consider changing my body to more match my mind, but as for SRS, that is not for me.

[steftoday]

To me, the key to what you're asking is the "25 years old" part. If I were 25 at the time that this scenario were practically possible, I would brew a cup of Earl Grey, and then I would opt for the SRS path.

[Natalie cupcake]

I would stay the way l am. No SRS for me. I like who l am and l don't want doctors messing with my brain no matter how safe it is.

[Jazzy Jaz]

Option b reminds me of the cure for mutants in xmen. Though some may get the piece of mind they desire from that path, Im proud to be a mutant and wouldn't change for the world!

[Jaylyn]

I'm with Isha on this one. I love being a male sometimes and cross dress to enjoy the other side of me. I get excited still about seeing a beautiful woman still and still get excited about dressing so for me I'd stay the same. Although I have wondered what it really would feel like to be a GG.

[Victoria Demeanor]

Ah ya doctors and their cure all for society, kind of reminds me of a lobotomy, take the soul from the person and they will be cured and fit in. Okay maybe not exactly the best example, but I believe free will and individuality is more important. I think I would take option "A" as I believe I am not hurting anyone and then ask those who have a problem with it to go have their brain tinkered with. Of course um ya I'm 25, it's 2115, I'm divorced, SRS is far advanced.... I may just have to put option "B" on the back burner and think about it.
I like the Nietzsche quote, but I prefer that other great philosopher Tommy Lee Jones: "A person is smart, people are dumb, panicy, dangerous animals."

Now for the real question. Why am I on the couch with a cup of tea and a corgi when I'm a coffee and German shepherd kind of gal?

[pamela7]

does Bruce Wayne ever really want to stop being batman? Surely it's horrific to consider surgically changing to conform when the disease is conformity.

a) leave everything unchanged.

Now, if you want psycho-surgery, there are methods to undo most things, but beware men, the anima return won't be refused. CD might be the answer to society's ills. Perhaps the conformists need the psychosurgery.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm a 70 year old man who enjoys appearing to be an attractive young woman. If I gave up dressing what would I do for fun?
If I had SRS? After all the $$ and suffering I'd be a homely old woman. What's the fun in that?!

But, Sarah, I'm more concerned about u. So many here said if they were 25 they'd have SRS. U r 25. What r u going to do? Would u answer your own question?:battingeyelashes:

[natcrys]

Interesting as a thought experiment, but you didn't need to paint the whole scenario around it. You could've just asked.. do you want to remove the CD/TV/TG 'thing' from your brain or would you choose for your body to be transformed into something that society would see as a women (assuming MtF).

And I don't think it's a realistic thought experiment... seeing as how our society is slowly but steadily changing in the right direction,.. so in 2115, I fully expect crossdressing, transgenderism, genderfluidity to be part of society as being gay will be in the next 10 years (it's not there yet).

It assumes that one is feeling sad and lonely because their partner has left them (which might be sad when that happens, but it's not the end of the world). In 2115, I'd expect a wider variety of men and women who are open to lots more than what is now currently going on.

This thought experiment also assumes that transition is only worthwhile if it's possible to be 'perfect' women where society wouldn't notice the history.

I don't know where you were going with this.. but for me, I'm a 50/50 person. I would never remove something from my brain that would change who I fundamentally am. So option B is out.

I would not go for the 'perfect' transition (option C).. though if there is an option for a perfect nose job.. I'm all for it! :p

So, I'd go for option A in this case. But I would not be sad. :)

[sarahcsc]

I'm a 70 year old man who enjoys appearing to be an attractive young woman. If I gave up dressing what would I do for fun?
If I had SRS? After all the $$ and suffering I'd be a homely old woman. What's the fun in that?!

But, Sarah, I'm more concerned about u. So many here said if they were 25 they'd have SRS. U r 25. What r u going to do? Would u answer your own question?:battingeyelashes:

Hi Sherry,

I knew it would eventually come back to me.

I have included the age factor in the premise because that to me, is the most pressing issue.

One is impulsive, irrational, and dependent at a younger age. But one also becomes fixed in their ways when they get older.

At age 25, one has the financial independence (sort of) to pursue either option and have the rest of their lives ahead of them.

Tricky...

As for me, I'm a bit older than 25, but I started HRT somewhere around that age. Hence, in reality, I would have went for option C. The only problem is, the persecuting doesn't necessarily stop even when SRS achieved perfect results.

I was very tempted to go with B because of the sheer pragmatism. If my brain was altered, I can forget about getting a new wardrobe, changing my identity, dealing with alienation from my friends and family, remained with my partner (not that all of this have happened to me, I'm just postulating) etc. If my desire to engage in crossgender behaviour is extinguished, I would pretty much conform to the rest of society.

But then... who would "I" be?

I believe my perception of reality and identity is unique and divine, hence need to be preserved. Although one can argue that following psychosurgery, there wouldn't be an "I" to mourn for its loss because a new "me" was born. But wouldn't that would be murder...?

We want society to correct itself, but as part of society, I put forward to you: if B were possible, should we then operate on psychopaths/sociopaths or should we allow them the right to remain the way they are even after committing heinous crimes without showing any sign of remorse? (we know from studies now that psychopaths are immune to psychological intervention, and in fact, it can make them more deviant)

As most people here have chosen option A, I'm concluding that neither the individual nor society is willing to budge on this one. Heh.

I suppose this is as good as it gets then?

Love,
S


Interesting as a thought experiment, but you didn't need to paint the whole scenario around it. You could've just asked.. do you want to remove the CD/TV/TG 'thing' from your brain or would you choose for your body to be transformed into something that society would see as a women (assuming MtF).

And I don't think it's a realistic thought experiment... seeing as how our society is slowly but steadily changing in the right direction,.. so in 2115, I fully expect crossdressing, transgenderism, genderfluidity to be part of society as being gay will be in the next 10 years (it's not there yet).

It assumes that one is feeling sad and lonely because their partner has left them (which might be sad when that happens, but it's not the end of the world). In 2115, I'd expect a wider variety of men and women who are open to lots more than what is now currently going on.

This thought experiment also assumes that transition is only worthwhile if it's possible to be 'perfect' women where society wouldn't notice the history.

I don't know where you were going with this.. but for me, I'm a 50/50 person. I would never remove something from my brain that would change who I fundamentally am. So option B is out.

I would not go for the 'perfect' transition (option C).. though if there is an option for a perfect nose job.. I'm all for it! :p

So, I'd go for option A in this case. But I would not be sad. :)

Hi Natcrys,

In order for it to be an effective thought experiment, some parameters have to be set in place, hence the entire scenario. Okay, the part with the corgi was unnecessary...

You can't say it is an unrealistic premise. There are still 79 countries where it is illegal to be homosexual and 10 of those countries prescribe the death penalty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory).

Just because you live in a progressive nation does not preclude discrimination of others. Would you deprive them the option of B despite the real risks of dying? At least give them the option to consider maybe?

Disclaimer: I am NOT endorsing this at all! this is a thought experiment.

Love,
S

[2B Natasha]

At 25 I would change my mind to reflect my body. Reason being. At 25 I was so confused and torn about the why's and what does of this. I would have done just about anything to change my situation.

[Teresa]

Sarah,
If medical science advances to that degree, our community would be way down the list of priorities ! I think governments would use it to try and empty our prisons first and hopefully find cures for far worse medical conditions than we suffer, if we feel we suffer at all !
It could be a frightening scenario, our partners might insist that we take up the surgery to save a relationship, we could argue that we don't need fixing but our partner could use the surgery to change their mental attitude to our CDing !

Sarah lets hope that this all remains hypothetical and the depth of how we feel is dealt with by wearing the clothes to satisfy our inner feelings !
I'm inclined to agree with Isha, leave things as they are !

[Jennifer B]

My initial inclination would be A. I'd never alter my brain to reflect my body, I don't think that would be honest, your brain is you. I would change my body to reflect my brain, but that's not where I am in life.

I think it's a very interesting idea for a novel. It would be a good premise to explore gender issues and tell a compelling and engaging story.

I'm a fan of the late Iain M. Banks. His 'Culture' novels feature a society where people can change sex at will, where most men and women over the course of their lives change sex and either remain or change back. It's something that by 2115 I hope we will have the ability to achieve in real life.

If you could give me a pill that would send me to sleep and when I woke up I'd be a fully fledged female with all the psychological and physical changes in situ, then I would absolutely take that pill. It would be a wonderful and powerfully liberating and educational experience. As long as I could take that same pill and change back again! The question is once I've taken the initial pill and become a Woman would I want to change back?

[sometimes_miss]

Unfortunately it probably often goes much deeper than just the clothes, even though most don't know it. There's a lot going on in our brains that is either buried so deep, or is considered so unacceptable, that many simply don't have any conscious idea of why they feel the way they do. At this point, virtually all of us can stop crossdressing tomorrow. But the ramifications simply are unacceptable. Frustration, depression, even suicidal thoughts come to mind. So just because you eliminate the desire to crossdress doesn't mean you're instantly going to be normal with no other psychological things going on.
And the other side of the coin, there's no way to change me into the girl I feel I was supposed to be. Yeah, if I could somehow magically change into a 14 year old average girl, I'd do so, even though it would create additional problems that I don't have now. Why? Because the sexual identity mismatch is what screws up my life the most. I've always been pretty bright. But the one problem that I haven't been able to solve is how to find females who are attracted to feminine males. Probably because so few of them exist, and the few who do, probably also have a lot of psychological issues causing that as well. Of course, even if I found them, physically I will never be mistaken for a pretty female, either. So there's really nowhere to go.
Right now, there's no win-win solution. We're getting closer. But I'm past the age where anything can be done.
If I could go back and grow up without any of this gender identity mix up, I'd go it, either boy, or girl. either would be better than living somewhere in the middle.

[Gillian Gigs]

This makes me think of the thought, "if I could know at 25 what I know now, at my age, then I would have done things differently". But, the problem is that if I actually knew at 25, what I know now, then I would not be the same person I am now! We are the result of the choices and decisions we make through out our lives, so how can we really know what would be different if we had made different choices. I could live my life in regret knowing that I made choices about wearing certain articles of clothing while playing with myself as a teen, but that would be very distructive, so I don't do it, because it changes nothing. Fantasys and what if's are something I avoid, as all it does is mess up an issue that already has its own mess already!

[LexiNexi]

I think I would become more physically fem. B cups and more of an hour glass. So I could still dress as a guy but pull off full time girl. I would need to be able to speak in two different tones.

Wouldnt that be the best? Choosing to be male or female depending on your mood?

[Tina_gm]

If society is the way it is currently, I would remove the cd desires. Call it whatever, but I would gladly join the ranks of the cisgender. So much less trouble, confusion, Discrimination. No matter how much our partners, friends or family tries to or really does accept, they will never understand and thete will always be a divide.

If, society truly didn't care. Which would make our partners, friends and families acceptance so much easier, I may opt to leave things as they are. I don't see srs. I do very much enjoy physical intimacy as a male, regardless of my outward presentation. Regardless of my inner identity. I would not feel any need to go srs.

[Paula DAngelo]

Sarah,

It seems you seem surprised that option A seems to be the most common option that people are selecting. I think like Isha said a lot of how your question would be answered depends on where someone tends to fall on the gender spectrum.

Let's look at the options you gave:

Option b) Alter your brain to reflect your body
Yes this would remove the desire to cross dress and allow you to fit in with "Normal" society, but if you are altering someones brain in
some manner then you are also altering who that person is to some extent. I can't see that many people would want to change their core
identity since that would make them someone other than who they are. So to me this doesn't seem like much of an option.

Option c) Alter your body to reflect your brain
While this could be and ideal solution for someone that identifies as transsexual, for most individuals that are not transsexual they seem to
want to able to express themselves as either gender depending on their mood, needs, or wants. Since this is not a permanent desire I'm
not surprised to see that this option isn't being selected more often.

Option a) Leave everything unchanged and continue with life the way it is
While this might not be the best option, it does seem to be the most selected. If you consider that the first two options would have
drawbacks for most cross dressers then that only leaves this option as the one to be selected.

Since you asked this question on the cross dresser forum I would be surprised to see either of the other two options to be the most selected, however if you asked the same question on the transsexual I would expect that you would see option C being the most selected.

Just my thoughts on the question and my thoughts about the results.

As for me I would pick option C, but then I consider myself transsexual and that is the option that I've already started on.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Sarah, I don't want to change anything, I have the best of both worlds.:daydreaming:

[sarahcsc]

Sarah,

It seems you seem surprised that option A seems to be the most common option that people are selecting. I think like Isha said a lot of how your question would be answered depends on where someone tends to fall on the gender spectrum.


Hi Paula,

It isn't the number of people that have chosen A which surprises me, it is its implication. Choosing A is really an act of defiance against society in order to preserve the self, while B is the opposite. The C option can be viewed both ways.

I'm surprised that so many people have chosen to defy society in order to remain who they are. In my culture, we do the opposite to preserve social harmony. If I wasn't so dysphoric about my gender, I would've chosen B in order to get that little nuisance of crossdressing out of me forever.

But I realised that it is in my dysphoria that I also learned compassion, kindness and patience. Hence, it isn't always a bad thing to feel miserable as along as we can transcend it and not get too preoccupied with it.

There are still some who chose the option B, albeit rare. I suspect this will always be the case because nobody wants their identity modified through artificial (surgical) means.

A change in identity has to be a gradual and arduous process that only the person themselves can decide to undertake. This allows for integration of the 'old' self and the 'new' so the change would appear seamless. To be honest, I would dread a change of personality which happened overnight!

If the part(s) of your brain that causes 'procrastination' was identified, would you then choose to zap it? I mean... I know I would be so much more productive!! Lol :D

Love,
S

[Krisi]

The year is 2015 and you don't need a new surgical method to stop your cross gender behavior once and for all. If you really want to stop it, just do it. Tell yourself "no more crossdressing" and stick to it. It may not be as easy as brain surgery, but you can do it if you really want to. Just like quitting smoking, alcohol or recreational drugs.

[kimdl93]

So easy. Change the body.

[Kate Simmons]

I think the point for myself would be somewhat moot as in 100 years I would be 168. The bottom line is that we are who we are for a reason and are exactly who we are supposed to be, regardless of what we choose to do. :battingeyelashes::)

[sarahcsc]

The year is 2015 and you don't need a new surgical method to stop your cross gender behavior once and for all. If you really want to stop it, just do it. Tell yourself "no more crossdressing" and stick to it. It may not be as easy as brain surgery, but you can do it if you really want to. Just like quitting smoking, alcohol or recreational drugs.

Hi Krisi,

I'm fascinated by your insight.

You are the first, as far as I know, on a forum like this, who compares the desire to engage in crossgender behaviour to addiction to substances.

You are also the first, as far as I know, on a forum like this, who claims that one could stop it by just willing it.

Can you please tell me more because I assume you speak from personal experience?

I would love to stop this once and for all without feeling well... utterly miserable and suicidal. You know... It happens.

Love,
S

[Krisi]

If not crossdressing would cause you to feel suicidal, you need more help than I can give you. See a professional ASAP.

The bottom line is, it is you who chooses to put on a bra and panties instead of a T shirt and briefs. It is you who choses to put on a skirt and blouse rather than trousers and a shirt. It is you who chooses to put on a wig and makeup.

I'm not suggesting that anyone stop doing this, I am saying that anyone can stop if he wants or needs to.

[sarahcsc]

If not crossdressing would cause you to feel suicidal, you need more help than I can give you. See a professional ASAP.

The bottom line is, it is you who chooses to put on a bra and panties instead of a T shirt and briefs. It is you who choses to put on a skirt and blouse rather than trousers and a shirt. It is you who chooses to put on a wig and makeup.

I'm not suggesting that anyone stop doing this, I am saying that anyone can stop if he wants or needs to.

Ah, of course.

That is to say that one can control one's actions the way one controls which foot to put forward first when walking. In fact, I can even choose not to walk and just stand still in one location.

None of this take into account of the time factor however.

For example, I can stand still in the middle of a busy road for as long as I want but how long will I be able to do so without feeling the need to move again due to whatever reasons (ie. fatigue, fear of being run over by a car etc)

Sure, I can stop crossdressing. It is my choice, like you said. But it would be meaningless without a time factor.

How long do you reckon that a person can stop crossdressing before dressing again due to whatever reason?

Have you been able to stop dressing indefinitely? If yes, you need to teach me, and you need to do better than saying 'just do it' because 'just do it' didn't work for me, and it didn't work for a lot of people here. I wonder why...

Also, if one can stop the behaviour but continue to think about it all the time, is that considered 'stopping'? What are your thoughts?

Love,
S

ps: I do seek professional help, and I'm a professional myself.

[Confucius]

I have had a compulsion to crossdress for as long as I can remember. (Yes, even as a 3year old child.) For just about the same time, I have been trying to make this compulsion go away. I believe I set a record for not crossdressing (18 years), but the urges were alway, always there. Even in the years when I would not crossdress, I would fantasize about it.

I can understand all those who want to remain the way they are today. After all, crossdressing makes them happy, and is a great source of comfort. However, I could not live as a female indefinitely. I love being a man too. So where does that leave me???

My answer would be to make my brain fit my body. I may be losing the happiness and comfort associated with crossdressing, but people who have no urges to crossdress are not less happy than crossdressers. They fill their lives with other things that make them just as happy. I imagine that if I was not a crossdresser then my life would be just as happy, just as fulfilled, just as interesting as ever. Making my brain fit my body would lose nothing, and only make my life more authentic. Yes, MORE AUTHENTIC, because I would be hiding nothing from those people in my life that I love.

[Dana44]

a) Leave everything unchanged and continue with life the way it is.
b) Alter your brain to reflect your body
c) Alter your body to reflect your brain


I would select A. However, I may work on the C a bit. I would not do any surgery on my body for anything except emergency problems.

[natcrys]

In order for it to be an effective thought experiment, some parameters have to be set in place, hence the entire scenario. Okay, the part with the corgi was unnecessary...


Of course, parameters and boundary conditions have to be there, I agree. I guess I just think that the whole sadness part is irrelevant to the question that is asked. But let's agree to disagree. :)



You can't say it is an unrealistic premise. There are still 79 countries where it is illegal to be homosexual and 10 of those countries prescribe the death penalty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory).

Just because you live in a progressive nation does not preclude discrimination of others. Would you deprive them the option of B despite the real risks of dying? At least give them the option to consider maybe?


I wouldn't deprive anyone of anything. And I don't judge anyone who would choose option b) to protect themselves from a harsh backwards bigoted society like the ones you listed in your link. But that is clearly an external factor and doesn't tell me anything about how a person genuinely feels about their crossdressing.

I would also not judge left-handed persons if they would alter their brain so that they would become right-handed (as this was frowned upon in the early 20th century.. and in the centuries before that.. could lead you to be branded a witch or heretic).

[kimdl93]

Sure, I can stop crossdressing. It is my choice, like you said. But it would be meaningless without a time factor.

How long do you reckon that a person can stop crossdressing before dressing again due to whatever reason?

.

How long? Perhaps a lifetime, but, I suspect it would be a miserable lifetime. Many of us have endured fairly long periods without performing the physical act of cross dressing. And I think it's safe to say that many of us were miserable during the entire period of abstinence (or repression...however on wishes to characterize it.) And it's safe to say that the misery impacted upon other aspects of many of our lives to a greater or lesser extent.

I've known, and for part of my life been one of those who endured their lives, rather than living happy, fulfilling lives. The question...the thought experiment...really shouldn't be on whether suppression of CDing, as physical act is possible, but whether it's possible to live happily under such constraints.

I would argue that it is not.