etiquette

[pamela7]

Does a person's clothing define how others should address them?

I.e. regardless of whether one is "passing" (in your dreams!), the right thing to do is to address a person in male clothing as "sir" and in female clothing as "madam"?

A secondary question then - if there's no wig, no make-up, no attempt to disguise the male gender, does the rule still apply, or is it then "sir" to a man in a dress?

[Dana3]

I would think it would be a simple manner of asking? In a very polite, civil, courteous and respectful manner, utilizing tact ~ "The act of speaking to and treating another, the way you would like to be spoken to and treated if you were they and they were you? The Golden Rule if you would. Or to quote Winston Churchill, "Tact is telling someone to go to Hell in such a manner as they would be looking forward to the trip!"

I've found it beneficial to NEVER stereotype people, as stereotyping is egregious is making assumptions about someone that aren't necessarily valid?

[stefan37]

Some people are clueless. Doesn't matter what you are staying. If they perceive you as male they will address you as such.

[Krisi]

If there's no attempt to pass, I would treat the person as a male. Simply wearing a dress does not make one female.

[NicoleScott]

I don't think there's a rule that will work every time. Even asking will offend some people. The Crocodile Dundee method only works some of the time.

[Sarah-RT]

If the person is attempting to pass then I would address them as the gender they are emulating, if they were wearing a dress but sporting a crew cut and a beard we'll say then I wouldn't be so sure, male I suppose or I might avoid gender pronouns and just use "excuse me" "please" and "thank you"

Sarah x

[Sandie70]

I know there are those who like to go out in public partially dressed and it seems the overwhelming consensus on this forum is to support those who do so.

However, if someone who has not attempted to look feminine except to throw on a dress or some other type of female attire, sans wig, makeup, shaving, etc., I presume this person has no worries about being seen as male, although a male in a dress. He is not trying to be feminine, but simply a man in women's clothing.

I would respect that persons choice, but I would address him as a male.

And if I may add, I am originally from California and I often encountered men wearing women's clothes... men with beards, hairy arms and legs, unshaven pits, no makeup or any attempt to look like a woman other than the dress. For every beautiful crossdresser who tries, even if they don't pass completely, the public will not remember them when thinking of crossdressers, but rather, the lumberjack in a dress.

[UNDERDRESSER]

"SIR?!" ""I work for a living!" or for Firefly fans, and slightly more appropriate. "Do I look like a Sir to you, you panty waist idjit?"

I tend to address people in a neutral fashion, "Hi, how are you all doing today?"

[Jennifer H]

I agree with underdresser, more and more people are using neutral greetings nowadays and I don't think that is a bad thing as long as it is done with respect.

I think if you are unsure of their gender that would be the only way.

I was shopping with my wife and there was a man in front of us wearing female clothes the sales assistant said- good afternoon sir , oops sorry madam. Very embarrassing for everyone.

Jennifer. xxx

[Kate Simmons]

I normally use the person's name if I know it rather than pronouns.:)

[Katey888]

When in doubt, keep it neutral. I think Krisi's shorthand response is the simplest approach if one is forced to gender, but I can't imagine a context where it is not possible to be non-specific...? :thinking: And if one does engage more personally then you have the opportunity to ask politely their preference...

And I've gone cover to cover through Debrett's and there is nothing on this at all... :eek: Perhaps for next year's edition... ;)

Katey x

[Judith96a]

Nicole,
I don't think that I would advocate the Crocodile Dundee method!:o:o

I tend to agree with Krisi. However, there is one GG whose path I cross occasionally who would be most offended if, by following Krisi's advice, I 'sir'-ed her!

Just to give you a giggle. Many years ago I had a telephone call from a lady (GG) whom I now know quite well but who, at the time, I had only heard of but had neither met nor spoken too. She has a very masculine voice! Having not properly caught her name at the beginning, I went by the evidence of my ears and 'sir'-ed her! Talk about embarrassing! Then a couple of years later I phoned a gentleman whom I knew of, but again had never met or spoken to. When the phone was answered, assuming that the high-pitched voice was his wife, I asked to speak to HIM! He sings tenor! Oh the perils of making assumptions!

[I Am Paula]

Yes, there is an etiquette. Ask them what pronouns they prefer. Simple, and polite.

[Pat]

I agree with Paula -- if you get to a point where you absolutely need a pronoun, just divert for a second and say, "I'm unclear on what pronoun to use for gender-nonconforming, do you prefer "he" or "she"? Then move on. Even the thin-skinned shouldn't have a problem since you've explained why you're asking and in doing so shifted the "blame" onto yourself.

Edit: I'm thinking about this considering my reaction if someone asked me. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd have an answer for them. It would probably be "use whatever pronoun makes YOU comfortable that you can use in a respectful manner." I have to admit when the girlfriend and I are out to dinner and the server comes up and says, "Hello, ladies." I'm a shade uncomfortable. I guess I'm not really trying to "pass" I'm just trying to "be." There isn't a correct pronoun for that.

[Cheryl T]

strictly speaking I would think that one should address another who is either obviously male or female as such. If someone is wearing women's clothing with no attempt to disguise the fact that they are male then they should be addressed as a male would be and vice versa.
When I go out (dressed) with my wife or with friends I am most certainly projecting a female image and expect to be addressed as such. If it's a mixed group at say a restaurant and the waiter addresses us as "What can I get you guys tonight" I don't take offense as it is a mixed group. If it were a group of CD ladies or mixed CD/GG then I would expect him to say "What can I get you ladies tonight".

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I wouldn't say it should define how others address them, but in these genderly uncertain times it's a useful yardstick.

What disturbs me more is the growing trend to resent and defy identification at all, as if somehow it's wrong to belong to one sex or the other, and certainly wrong to label someone as miss, ms, madam or mrs.

I find aspects of this site annoying, one being the continual goalpost-shifting of labels, another being the rapidly growing number of labels and acronyms- it's worse than the US military.

FFS we're men in dresses, or we're women dressed manishly- end of. Some of us look a damned sight more convincing than others, but it's a place on a scale, not a separate department with its own extension number.

(Flounces off stage left)

[MsVal]

I must frustrate some people. I am small of build, with longish hair, and usually dress androgynously. I am identified as female about half the time. It doesn't matter to me, and my dear wife is becoming more comfortable with it, though there is still a long way to go.

One day (soon, I hope) I will be out in obviously feminine clothes. I may feel differently about my gender identification then.

Best wishes
MsVal

[Krisi]

I don't know of a good "gender non-specific" word to replace "sir" or "ma'am". If anyone does, please post it.

[Ineke Vashon]

I'll second Nikki's opinion. Far too many sirs and madams. I'll stick to "how are you, how can I help you, are ready to order, nice outfit" Most everybody answers in the current vernacular, anyway: "No Problem."

Ineke

[Teresa]

Pamela,
Sorry to go off at a slight tangent but one that gets me annoyed is when there is a group of girls and some one asks," how are you guys doing ?" It happens more on TV now, usually no one takes offense, you very rarely if ever get the opposite when a group of boys are asked, " How are you girls doing ?" Occasionally it happens but more of a put down !

I guess that partly answers your question that an answer may be more of a put down rather than any thought of etiquette !

[Marcelle]

Hi Pamela,

I am dealing with the very issue as part of the education piece for my workplace accommodation. What do we call you? As I am a senior officer when I identify as a man wearing applicable clothing, (civilian or uniform) Sir, Major G*****, him, he or if the person is of the same rank Marcel will be fine. When I identify as a woman wearing applicable clothing (civilian or uniform) Ma'am, Major G*****, her, she or if the person is of the same rank Marcelle will be fine. There is going to be some mistakes and awkward moments for sure but I think most will figure it out as time goes on.

As to your second question, I think it would depend on what the person desires. I really can't speak to it because it is not my thing.

Cheers

Isha

[stefan37]

If you've known people for a long time. It will take a very long time.

[Pat]

Sorry to go off at a slight tangent but one that gets me annoyed is when there is a group of girls and some one asks," how are you guys doing ?"

In the US, at least in the New England area "guys" has been a non-gender-specific term for decades. It can still indicate males, as in "I saw five guys standing over there" which would be interpreted as five males, but "How are you guys doing?" would be accepted by a mixed group as better than "how are you guys and girls doing?" and could well be applied to an all-girl group by any speaker.


I don't know of a good "gender non-specific" word to replace "sir" or "ma'am". If anyone does, please post it.

I think the gender non-specific for that is just to drop the word. "Yes, sir, officer" becomes "Yes, officer." "I won't do that ma'am" becomes, "I won't do that." In almost all cases the inclusion of gender for everyday conversation is just frosting. In most cases where you're talking to a person, you're going to be using the neutral "you" anyway. When you're speaking of a person using "they" has been gaining acceptance though some still argue that it's wrong.

[mechamoose]

Does a person's clothing define how others should address them?

Kinda.

You/We/I present an image, it may not be congruous with our gender. The fallout is mostly from where those things *don't* line up.

I have yet to be called M'am, but I *know* that I have made people think about the response before giving it.

"La Cage Aux Folles":


We are what we are and what we are is an illusion.
We love how it feels
Putting on heels causing confusion.
We face life though it's sometimes sweet and sometimes bitter;
Face life, with a little guts and lots of glitter.
Look under our frocks: Girdles and jocks,
Proving we are what we are!

I'm sorry but who we are challenges the mundanes. They can't see our world, that doesn't mean we don't have a right to it.

- MM

[Jacqueline85]

Well, if someone asked how to correctly address me, I'd say: "Dr." They can make up their own mind about my gender.

[Robin414]

Well, if someone asked how to correctly address me, I'd say: "Dr." They can make up their own mind about my gender.

Yep, done that! I've only studied medicine but I can pass as a PhD in physics to a layperson at least 😆

[docrobbysherry]

I have a problem remembering names. So, I often refer to mixed vanillas as, "Guys".

Surfers refer to everyone as, "Hey, dude!" As a former surfer, for dressers I prefer the more proper, "Hey, u!":devil:

[Lily Catherine]

I usually address strangers as 'sir' or 'ma'am', but if I'm genuinely not sure I omit those terms. (e.g. "Excuse me sir" --> "Excuse me"). "Their" is my general choice when referring to anyone whose gender pronouns are unknown.

Among friends I usually address them by name, or "y'all". One of my GG friends actually addresses another of her GG friends as "bro / bruh" on a regular basis.

Since I also converse in Mandarin in the vanilla world, I find it a little more awkward in English, as "he / she / it" all sound the same when spoken, and "Guys?" has an effectively gender neutral connotation. Which is odd because I emphasize the "Sir / Ma'am / Miss" more in Mandarin.