View Full Version : How would you suggest I out myself at work?
GaleWarning
07-13-2015, 11:55 PM
I am a strongly heterosexual MtF crossdresser, who is still in the closet. I have no desire to transition, or even present as a female. In my ideal world, I would simply be allowed to wear whatever articles of clothing I felt like, regardless of which section of the clothing store they were originally purchased from. Of course, in a work situation, they would have to be appropriate for the job I do.
I work for an organisation which operates under the auspices of a London Borough, but which will shortly switch to being a charitable trust. The organisation has a robust (at least on paper) Equality and Diversity policy in place. The term “transgendered” appears every time it speaks about treating people equally.
I have a fixed term contract which runs till the end of the decade, when my work visa expires. I expect to apply for and be granted permanent residence at that point, and suppose that my employment will then become permanent.
I am entering my umpteenth childhood and am toying with the idea of testing this policy. So here is an open-ended question, to which I invite intelligent responses …
How would you suggest I out myself at work?
ReineD
07-14-2015, 12:19 AM
You should read Isha's posts. She managed to change the way the Canadian Armed Forces deals with non-transitioners who wish to dress at work! :)
... many people begin by having a chat with HR.
stefan37
07-14-2015, 03:49 AM
If you are in the closet and haven't gone out yet. That would be a start. Go out while doing your daily tasks and errands. Build confidence and raise your comfort level. In the interim you can start wearing clear nail polish daily. Gradually moving to shear color ad your comfort level increases. Grow your hair, get your ears pierced. These are all steps that will allow you to step out into the work environment without totally outing yourself. Many will just think you're eccentric. The key is to own who you are with confidence. When asked why are your nails painted. You need to be able to respond. " I like it and it makes me feel good ".
You have to remember. Once you ring the bell, it can't be unrung.
Krisi
07-14-2015, 06:07 AM
I suggest that you don't out yourself at work. Nothing good can come from it and many bad things can come from it. Keep your crossdressing and your income producing job as far apart as possible.
CarlaWestin
07-14-2015, 06:23 AM
Of all the times I've kicked around the "out at work" issue, there seems to be only one conclusion. Never ever! I keep it very secure. Now, if someone else outed me for some kind of evilness reason (I work with vampires) we would be in HR demanding termination for workplace hostility.
mykell
07-14-2015, 06:48 AM
hi gale,
i would simply like to wear the clothing i like regardless of the dept. they come from, sounds like a simple request,
but here we all are....just a thought....since you dont go out dressed, seem to be content in that closet for the time being, not going to transition, why not wait out the renewal of your contract....no matter what is in writing policy wise personal feeling of those who may disagree with your lifestyle choices will be in charge of how far you will grow with the company....they can cite so many other reasons why you were not picked up for permanent hire....for now if you dont muddy the waters and ride out the term.....after qualification for permanent employment you can reevaluate if you wish to out yourself at work ..... just my thoughts.....
BLUE ORCHID
07-14-2015, 07:26 AM
Hi Gail, See line #3 in my signature, :daydreaming:
If you really feel that this is something that you must do have a long chat with your HR Dept.:hugs:
reb.femme
07-14-2015, 02:20 PM
Sounds like you work for a government department so I can't see any problems with the department in regard to coming out as Trans. The problems are the likely rejections by work colleagues, so if you can put up with that, a chat with HR is definitely the way to go. I've worked for my local borough council in the past and I'd be confident of their support.
I know you wanted sensible answers but the easiest way to come out to all at work is to send an email to the "all exchange users" group or whatever it's called at your place. That way, there'll be no secret to worry about anymore.
Rebecca
Katey888
07-14-2015, 02:52 PM
Hi Gale,
Take a look at Klaire Larnia's threads and posts... :) Klaire is also a UK girl so has done a lot of what you describe in a similar environment: not presenting female - as much as I totally respect Isha, she does present as female so I think Klaire has some more relevant examples (and she's made an absolute science of outfit coordination... :D)
And yes, do speak to HR before doing anything - while some gender presentation protection exists, some organisations will have valid rules requiring certain standards or types of dress code - I would spend time ensuring that you have HR and as many layers of direct management bought into your philosophy before you do anything in practice. You might want to test exactly what they mean by 'transgendered' and how (or whether) you fit into their definition. If you can make a convincing argument that this is about self-expression and not 'fancy dress' (as I can imagine some will perceive it) then you may have some success.
Good luck - and do let us know what you decide and what happens! :)
Katey x
MelanieAnne
07-14-2015, 08:31 PM
I am a strongly heterosexual MtF crossdresser, who is still in the closet. I have no desire to transition, or even present as a female.
I am entering my umpteenth childhood and am toying with the idea of testing this policy.
If you are heterosexual and have no desire to transition, why would you want to come out at your workplace? Why do you want to test the policy. You sound like a troublemaker, trying to test and push the limits. These things usually don't end well, because they will peg you as a troublemaker, rather than a sincere trans person. My old girlfriend had a crude saying about messing around at work. "You don't sh!t where you eat"!
I realize this is a support group. But we don't do anyone, including ourselves any favors when we support or endorse bad behavior. The "dude in a dress" testing the limits makes us all look bad.
Nadine Spirit
07-14-2015, 09:16 PM
So because I go to work, present as a male, and have my fingernails painted bright pink, and I am "testing the limits" then I am making "us all look bad." What a complete bunch of horse doodie! It is not us gender non-conformists that make some CDs look bad, they do that all on their own!
As to the OP - for me, I know they have a non discrimination policy on hand as I am in a union protected profession. So I just started doing me and waited for a response. None came, except for continued praise for my great work.
MelanieAnne
07-14-2015, 10:01 PM
So because I go to work, present as a male, and have my fingernails painted bright pink, and I am "testing the limits" then I am making "us all look bad."
I doubt there are any kind of limits in The Peoples Republic of Califawnia. I'm referring to the rest of the country. :doh:
Nikkilovesdresses
07-15-2015, 04:16 AM
I have no desire to...present as a female.
Then why on Earth would you out yourself?
carolynn2fem
07-15-2015, 05:35 AM
I was recently at a big name sub shop fixing something. I noticed the manager there. young kid is his 20s. I noticed a lack of body hair on both arms and legs. there was a suttile outline of a bra under his shirt and necklace with trans insignia. he seem fit in with the rest on the crew. also posably wearing lip stick too. how out to his fellow employees I could say fore sure. I felt it unproffesionl to say anything
Krisi
07-15-2015, 08:17 AM
Carolynn, you noticed that this man had no body hair and was wearing a bra? That's odd because so many posts on this forum state that no one will notice such things. Your post pretty much proves them incorrect.
A transsexual will have to "come out" at some point, but no good can come of a crossdresser outing himself at work and he puts his job at risk by doing so.
Bobbi46
07-15-2015, 09:25 AM
If I was at work which I am not any more I would not, I previously posted about "outing" to a personal friend, and the general opinion from everybody was don't, once the cat is out of the bag there is no going back. At work it could cause you a whole lot of problems and then again word would get out mouth to mouth and before you can bat an eyelid its got back to your family and relatives, do you want them to know as well?.
Nadine Spirit
07-15-2015, 09:29 AM
I doubt there are any kind of limits in The Peoples Republic of Califawnia. I'm referring to the rest of the country. :doh:
So.... everyone.... if you live in California you are free to be gender non-conforming, but if you live anywhere else in the US, then be afraid, be VERY afraid! Oh and the rest of the world, apparently you don't count in this conversation!
What is it about some folks seemingly feeling free to dictate how to express one's gender. Good for you! (Did my sarcasm come through well enough?)
AbigailJordan
07-15-2015, 09:46 AM
A transsexual will have to "come out" at some point, but no good can come of a crossdresser outing himself at work and he puts his job at risk by doing so.
I find that to be a very polarised view of things Krisi, Just because you can't see any good from your perspective doesn't mean that good cannot exist for others. Crossdressing is part of who we are for almost all of us. Having to effectively be only half of who you are day in and day out at work can be difficult for some.
It's also interesting that you say a TS will HAVE to come out at some point. The inference is that crossdressers DON'T have to come out if they don't want to. But then.. maybe some of them DO want to come out, and staying hidden can cause as much damage as being open.
As for putting jobs at risk, I don't see how. Employers are not allowed to discriminate on the grounds of gender identity and as long as acceptable dress codes are adhered to there is no significant risk beyond the normal hazards of coming out in any other environment.
Krisi
07-15-2015, 10:10 AM
You realize that this thread is about crossdressing, right?
Well, you can find what you find, it's a free country. I would like to think part of this forum is expressing one's opinion even if it might not be the same as the next person's opinion or even the majority opinion. It would be pointless if everybody just agreed with everybody else.
And if you think one cannot lose a job for crossdressing, you are incredibly naïve. One might be protected in some government or union jobs, but outside of that, there is little protection unless the company listed your reason for termination as "crossdressing". Once you walk away from your keyboard, you find that the world is a cold hard place. Crossdressing can be disruptive in the workplace and it can drive customers away. If that happens, you have to stop or you have to go.
stefan37
07-15-2015, 11:09 AM
There are a lot of opinions on this topic. Many of the responses are from fear. Other factors are comfort levels. Not many CD are comfortable presenting in the light of day amongst co- workers.
First you need to know the company you work for and their policies. Second you have to feel comfortable in the ways you would like present and the clothing. Last you need the self confidence to own what you are doing.
I own my business and worked part time for the local County vo tech. For many years I went to work daily with pierced hoops, colored nail polish, eyeliner, mascara and eye shadow. Various women's tops and slacks. I got asked many times what was up. I would own it. Day I enjoy what I wear and it makes me feel good. I never had an issue with employees, clients, nor the school administration or fellow instructors.
If it's something you need to do to express who you are. Then by all means explore how to get it done.
Isha would be a valuable resource. She had taken that leap to presenting at work how she feels that particular day.
Shelly Preston
07-15-2015, 11:55 AM
I am a strongly heterosexual MtF crossdresser, who is still in the closet. I have no desire to transition, or even present as a female. In my ideal world, I would simply be allowed to wear whatever articles of clothing I felt like, regardless of which section of the clothing store they were originally purchased from. Of course, in a work situation, they would have to be appropriate for the job I do.
Your employer may well have a dress code. Also this may depend on the job you do.
I work for an organisation which operates under the auspices of a London Borough, but which will shortly switch to being a charitable trust. The organisation has a robust (at least on paper) Equality and Diversity policy in place. The term “transgendered” appears every time it speaks about treating people equally.
The policy is fine but as always the devil is in the detail. As has been said it depends on there opinion of what constitutes a transgendered person.
I have a fixed term contract which runs till the end of the decade, when my work visa expires. I expect to apply for and be granted permanent residence at that point, and suppose that my employment will then become permanent.
I am entering my umpteenth childhood and am toying with the idea of testing this policy. So here is an open-ended question, to which I invite intelligent responses …
How would you suggest I out myself at work?
I don't see an easy way this can work unless you intend living full time as a woman. If you are really intending to test this policy, your first step is to speak to HR
Stephanie47
07-15-2015, 12:11 PM
I've read the postings to your query. Without any elaboration of why you want to do this I too am wondering "Why?" If you a straight MtF cross dresser, who does not want to appear as a woman, I am guessing you want to wear women's clothing rather than men? If that is the case, then I'd check with your HR department. Most of the issues I always see with relation to sexuality in the workplace is gay/lesbian and transsexual issues. In the area I live in I've never read or heard of a man wearing women's clothing to work just to wear women's clothing to work.
I just wonder what you expect to gain from "just" wearing women's clothing without appearing as a woman. Again, check with human resources. If there are no gender identity issues to fall back upon, maybe your actions would be considered a "distraction" in the workplace. As a "recreational" cross dresser I would never consider going to work attired as a woman.
AbigailJordan
07-15-2015, 12:38 PM
You realize that this thread is about crossdressing, right?
Yes I realise that, you do realise that this thread is about what somebody else wants and not what you think they should want right?
Well, you can find what you find, it's a free country. I would like to think part of this forum is expressing one's opinion even if it might not be the same as the next person's opinion or even the majority opinion. It would be pointless if everybody just agreed with everybody else.
Oh absolutely hunny, which is why my response to you said that "I find" rather than "that is". I was merely pointing out that my point of view differs, just as advice differs from instruction, same principle :)
And if you think one cannot lose a job for crossdressing, you are incredibly naïve. One might be protected in some government or union jobs, but outside of that, there is little protection unless the company listed your reason for termination as "crossdressing". Once you walk away from your keyboard, you find that the world is a cold hard place. Crossdressing can be disruptive in the workplace and it can drive customers away. If that happens, you have to stop or you have to go.
What I was saying, is that if you adhere to any applicable dress code, then the company has no room for any kind of disciplinary procedure. I totally understand that some companies will try to find a "legal" reason to get rid of you because they don't accept your right to dress, but then those kind of companies will just as soon find a reason to get rid of anyone they don't like.
You have made an assumption that the OP is in a customer facing role, which I think is highly unlikely due to the fact that he wishes to "gender blend" rather than present en femme. I know how hard and cold the world can be, but I for one am proud to show my face in that world and be counted as one who doesn't scrape and bow to what traditional society dictates. This kind of situation is not just about one person in one job, it's about everyones right to be who they are and not be judged for it. Every person who supports the "hide it and say nothing" mentality pushes back the struggle to be accepted.
As for crossdressing being disruptive in the workplace, I really don't see how what one is wearing would cause disruption, after all, we've all seen the GG's who dress "inappropriately" for work, we've all known that guy who seemingly cannot afford new cloths and always looks like a bargain bin reject.. yes these people occasion comment, but rarely are they considered to be a disruptive influence. I would expect a certain amount of initial "gossip" etc, but once that has died away, people are generally far more accepting than some people think.
Tracii G
07-15-2015, 12:42 PM
When I was working I had to wear a uniform but incorporated non male jewelery or had my nails painted.
On Fridays if I went in around noon I wore girls jeans and tennis shoes. No one said a word.
I wasn't "out" at work but a few office ladies I came in contact with asked questions so I let them know a bit about me and they were cool with it.
If they gossiped about it I don't know I never had any repercussions over it.
Was I pushing the boundaries? Sure I was because being a commercial truck driver is pretty much a testosterone filled occupation.
My point is go slow incorporate little things here and there to let people get used to it.
If you go in make a huge scene like if women can wear a skirt to work why can't I argument you are asking for a boat load of trouble.
You will be branded as a trouble maker and being a distraction to the workforce.
Those two things will get you fired whether you have a contract or not. If then you pull the I'm TG card after you get fired good luck with that because being TG wasn't the problem, you were fired over being a trouble maker and disrupting the workforce.
Totally agree with the comment don't shit where you eat or don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Beverley Sims
07-15-2015, 01:44 PM
Gale, a warning....
Think of the consequences, do it crefully and thoughtfully.
Thinking about it...... Forget it.
Why do you feel a need to do it?
Tabitha_Lynn
07-15-2015, 03:02 PM
I am certainly no expert, but my opinion is that unless you are planning to transition to full-time presenting as female, it would be wise not to mix your dressing with work.
UNDERDRESSER
07-15-2015, 07:34 PM
Well, extremely polarized bunch of responses.
As a guy who does wear skirts at work, while remaining very clearly male, here are some of my thoughts and responses.
1. As many have said, you can't un-ring a bell. At best, you can wait for the reverberations to die down, or move far enough away they can't be heard. ( Pretty good allegory eh? I'm proud of that one )
2. I do not, in myself, identify as transgender. By most definitions I am though. I am not above claiming the protection this affords me if necessary.
3. Even though I asked first, and know that our company has serious rules about discrimination, I was nervous. Partly that was what sort of reaction I would get from co-workers and customers, partly I wasn't somehow comfortable with exposing this side of me. As it turned out, the responses have overwhelmingly positive. I have had precisely one negative reaction from a customer, and I wasn't certain of that as no words were said, and one negative attitude from a co-worker. Strangely enough the Scot, who has come to functions in a Kilt!
4. have been doing this for about 2 months. I had my annual review about a month ago, the subject was not raised, overall a pretty good review and it was stated that they find me a valuable employee.
5. I am in Canada. Those of you following Isha may have realised that there are some actual functional non-discrimination rules in Canada. The OP is in the UK, where I think the laws are similar. No that doesn't mean that a company can't find some way round the rules, it does mean that most won't try it if you're smart about it, and are known to keep good documentation. The US, California apparently being an exception, is functionally insane in most of it's ( nearly non-existent ) labour laws. You have other issues with your laws which mean I will not cross the border again, probably ever. Pity, I like most Americans and you have a beautiful country.
6. Why did I do it? Because I like skirts and wanted to feel comfortable and true to myself? Couldn't be as simple as that? Nah....of course not /S
7. To the OP, Gale, ( just read your handle and fell about laughing! ) It's your choice. I don't know if your particular situation gives you more freedom of action or not. If you do it, how to do it? I think talking to HR first is probably best, unless you have very good rapport with a member of the upper management who may have good input. Depending on what they say, then HR. Good Luck and report back please!
MelanieAnne
07-15-2015, 11:11 PM
As for putting jobs at risk, I don't see how. Employers are not allowed to discriminate on the grounds of gender identity and as long as acceptable dress codes are adhered to there is no significant risk beyond the normal hazards of coming out in any other environment.
This is just naive! Employers are not stupid, and they keep abreast of all the latest laws and rules. Simply put, if they want to get rid of you, they will find a way to do it. They have lawyers to advise them on various issues and ways to terminate employees. Your employer may not care what you wear. Or to your dismay, other employees may complain that you are a distraction, or customers may complain. They may not fire you immediately. Sometimes they take many months, carefully laying the groundwork, filing several poor performance reports in your personnel file. Or citing customer complaints. Rest assured, they will not fire you over gender issues or other issues for which you could sue them. But if they want to get rid of you, they will do it. It's your job, and your decision to make.
UNDERDRESSER
07-15-2015, 11:29 PM
This is just naive! Employers are not stupid, and they keep abreast of all the latest laws and rules. Simply put, if they want to get rid of you, they will find a way to do it. They have lawyers to advise them on various issues and ways to terminate employees. Your employer may not care what you wear. Or to your dismay, other employees may complain that you are a distraction, or customers may complain. They may not fire you immediately. Sometimes they take many months, carefully laying the groundwork, filing several poor performance reports in your personnel file. Or citing customer complaints. Rest assured, they will not fire you over gender issues or other issues for which you could sue them. But if they want to get rid of you, they will do it. It's your job, and your decision to make.I have heard of many cases, In the UK and Canada, where they have tried this and got their fingers burnt. Co-workers who complain about having issues with Transgender individuals, may in fact find themselves in counselling.
Marcelle
07-16-2015, 04:35 AM
Hi Gale,
I take from your post, you wish to be able to express this side of you by how you dress (e.g., women's or men's or a mix of clothing) and not so much the full expression (make-up, wig, etc.). While I have challenged how the Canadian military views what it means to be TG by presenting male or female depending on how I feel, it was done through education and consultation. If you want to alter your dress and do so under the protection of your company's Equality and Diversity policy, you are going to have to go to your HR department and identify as such and explain to them what that means to you. For them, they might see being TG as meaning you are going to transition at some point (the Canadian Military thought the same thing when I came forward). You are going to have to educate them that being TG means different things to different folks and this is what it means to you. This will most likely need to be followed up with dialogue between you, HR and your supervisors and eventually public education. It is a process if you are expecting to be covered under existing TG policy.
However the most salient point is "What do you want and need to do". If this is something deep in your core that you need to do (dress as you please) then go forth. However what are you going to do if they say "No, we don't agree that you are TG because you like to wear male and female or a mix of clothing?". The information is now out there for all to know. You need a contingency plan. I am not saying this is going to happen, but it is what I had in mind when I came out to my chain of command. I had done a lot of research on what TG means and had answers and arguments to sway the "NO" camp . . . fortunately I did not have to.
. . . but no good can come of a crossdresser outing himself at work and he puts his job at risk by doing so.
Krisi,
While this can certainly be the case it is not as simple as "do it and it will go bad". I agree that if you are just flirting with the idea because of reading a few "feel good" stories then step lightly. However, if your CDing is predicated on some form of dysphoria and it is something you need to do and will never transition then you may need to do it. Naturally this would not just be showing up in a sundress and a sandals one day but through dialogue and research. If you find the company cannot abide by that then you will need to decide what is more important . . . your emotional well being or your job. For me I was fully prepared to leave military service if they said no as I could no longer function in just one gender.
Cheers
Isha
GaleWarning
07-16-2015, 12:42 PM
I may wear a tie-dye T-shirt tomorrow.
Why? Because it is hot and the shirt is the coolest I own.
It's not overtly feminine, although the colours are bright!
Thanks for the comments, I'll think them through carefully.
Dianne S
07-16-2015, 12:49 PM
And if you think one cannot lose a job for crossdressing, you are incredibly naïve
It really depends where you live. Where I live, our Human Rights Code forbids discrimination on the basis of gender identity and gender expression, and the latter includes crossdressing.
To the OP: Examine the laws where you live. Examine your employer's policies. And then decide for yourself whether or not your employer is likely to try underhanded tricks to skirt the laws, so to speak.
If after all of that, you're confident that your position is safe, then I wish you good luck.
Robin414
07-16-2015, 09:46 PM
Go to HR and be as masculine as you can and say 'Dude, I'm a chic!', pounding fist on the desk 😠 Seriously though, I've thought about this myself...how about leveraging Halloween. ..dress up as a woman but do it so well that people actually think you look good and work it from there??
MelanieAnne
07-16-2015, 10:21 PM
This is not a TG issue. Go back and read the original post!
I am a strongly heterosexual MtF crossdresser, who is still in the closet. I have no desire to transition, or even present as a female.
flatlander_48
07-16-2015, 10:51 PM
As a piece of information and considering some of the material here, in the US, GENDA (Gender Expression Non-Discrimination Act) is NOT the law of the land. Some places have protections, but most do not.
DeeAnn
heatherdress
07-16-2015, 11:45 PM
There is very little good to be gained from disclosure that you crossdress at work. You may not be fired for disclosing that you are a crossdresser, but you may not see promotions, positive performance ratings, raises or good assignments. You might be the subject of complaints from co-workers. You might find yourself with fewer friends. Why risk it? If you are a closeted crossdresser, work is the last place you should consider demonstrating that you crossdress.
UNDERDRESSER
07-17-2015, 01:06 AM
This is not a TG issue. Go back and read the original post!Who are you replying to?
MelanieAnne
07-17-2015, 01:12 AM
I was replying to Isha.
Hi Gale,
I take from your post, you wish to be able to express this side of you by how you dress (e.g., women's or men's or a mix of clothing) and not so much the full expression (make-up, wig, etc.). While I have challenged how the Canadian military views what it means to be TG by presenting male or female depending on how I feel, it was done through education and consultation. If you want to alter your dress and do so under the protection of your company's Equality and Diversity policy, you are going to have to go to your HR department and identify as such and explain to them what that means to you. For them, they might see being TG as meaning you are going to transition at some point (the Canadian Military thought the same thing when I came forward). You are going to have to educate them that being TG means different things to different folks and this is what it means to you. This will most likely need to be followed up with dialogue between you, HR and your supervisors and eventually public education. It is a process if you are expecting to be covered under existing TG policy.
However the most salient point is "What do you want and need to do". If this is something deep in your core that you need to do (dress as you please) then go forth. However what are you going to do if they say "No, we don't agree that you are TG because you like to wear male and female or a mix of clothing?". The information is now out there for all to know. You need a contingency plan. I am not saying this is going to happen, but it is what I had in mind when I came out to my chain of command. I had done a lot of research on what TG means and had answers and arguments to sway the "NO" camp . . . fortunately I did not have to.
AbigailJordan
07-17-2015, 01:16 AM
There is very little good to be gained from disclosure that you crossdress at work. You may not be fired for disclosing that you are a crossdresser, but you may not see promotions, positive performance ratings, raises or good assignments. You might be the subject of complaints from co-workers. You might find yourself with fewer friends. Why risk it? If you are a closeted crossdresser, work is the last place you should consider demonstrating that you crossdress.
You mean he might end up having to face all the same issues that women in the workplace currently face?
And maybe.. it's possible that work is actually the place he feels safest.. maybe his co-workers are prominent people in his life and maybe he's considering this move because he wants to come out in that way. There is no right and wrong way to come out.
And the OP has stated they wish to do this, and asked for advice on how to go about it but the majority of responses on here have nothing to do with advising him on what he wants, but telling/advising/strongly suggesting he doesn't do what he's already stated he wants to do. Opinions are fine people, but they are much better received when asked for.. on this occasion advice is more appropriate than opinions.
Marcelle
07-17-2015, 03:21 AM
This is not a TG issue. Go back and read the original post!
MelanieAnne,
Since you decided to openly chide me in your response that I somehow misread the OP, why don't you go back and read my full post before launching with your own comments. I even stated that I know the OP was not planning to present as a female. I was providing her with advice on how to approach her HR folks based on my own experience. :Angry3:
As far as not being a TG issue I guess it depends on how you define TG. The common acceptance is an umbrella term which includes CDers of all walks and I believe the OP falls under this category.
Isha
Krististeph
07-17-2015, 03:59 AM
"A person is <intelligent>. People are <stupid>" --paraphrase of Men In Black... if you speak to an HR rep you will probably get a positive reaction. But the group reaction of your co-workers may be the other direction. perhaps prime a few trusted persons first. TG is still pretty new to most people. Sure they knew about it, but only recently is it really coming to a head.
with contract terms and permanent residence in question- my strong advice is to consider worst case scenarios, and decide if you can live with that. Simply put- plan for people being at their worst, even if you are great at pushing them to be their best.
i teach college- a rather male dominated subject- electronics. i work with profs who are hard asses and ones who could probably be therapists... and the students like and respect me because of my approach.
I have considered coming out, but despite the fact that i think most students would be okay with it (i'm sure a few even suspect it), i don't CD at school because it would not add anything to the classes or my ability to teach or work with the students. At this point in time, i think it would be in general- slightly negative in overall effect. I won't risk that for something that would have only a minor effect for me at work:
I am physical when i teach- active and i use a lot of tools. I get dirty sometimes. i need to work closely with students sometimes- i don't want them freaking out because a guy in a pantsuit or skirtsuit is next to them. The prime focus is on the teaching.
Until CD/TG is more common, i'm not going to distract the learning process.
That's how i see it, for my own situation. But yeah, i'd like it if i could come out and teach full time as a female. I'd be kind of a tom-boy-ish female, I think that has more sexual overtone than simple crossdressing- it's more like a gender-$#$%- but that is what I am. I CD, but i am still avid about whatever it is i am doing.
Hope this helps.
k
stefan37
07-17-2015, 04:20 AM
Umm. I think I offered advice on how to proceed.
MelanieAnne
07-17-2015, 08:56 PM
To go back to the original post:
I am a strongly heterosexual MtF crossdresser, who is still in the closet. I have no desire to transition, or even present as a female.
the burning question here is simply why would a strongly heterosexual male want to wear womens clothes to work? But after all is said and done, it is his decision to make, and he will be the one to live with the consequences, good or bad.
Dianne S
07-17-2015, 09:25 PM
the burning question here is simply why would a strongly heterosexual male want to wear womens clothes to work?
Because he likes them?
To me, the burning question is this: Why can't everyone express themselves as they choose, without being judged?
MelanieAnne
07-18-2015, 12:00 AM
To me, the burning question is this: Why can't everyone express themselves as they choose, without being judged?
Because we don't live in a perfect world!
MonctonGirl
07-18-2015, 12:09 AM
I suggest that you don't out yourself at work. Nothing good can come from it and many bad things can come from it. Keep your crossdressing and your income producing job as far apart as possible.
I second that notion.
Policies are in place ( as you said; "on paper" ) in order to protect THEM from law suits when they fire someone "without cause" so that they can "prove" that the dismissal was not due to the issues mentioned...since they have "policy" to handle "those" issues.
That does not mean you won't be
- shunned
- fired without cause
- shafted ( blamed for something you didn't do )
If you guys have Halloween where you are - START NOW by arranging a For Charity Costume Day - where people donate $5 each to some local charity ( TIP: pick a children's charity ) and show up in a dress. See how that goes.
Marcelle
07-18-2015, 05:45 AM
To go back to the original post:
the burning question here is simply why would a strongly heterosexual male want to wear womens clothes to work? But after all is said and done, it is his decision to make, and he will be the one to live with the consequences, good or bad.
Hi MelanieAnne,
Umm WRT to the OP that was not the burning question asked by Gale but your interpretation . . . her question was about "how would we advise about outing herself at work (see below). That is what people (myself included) responded to.
. . . I work for an organisation which operates under the auspices of a London Borough, but which will shortly switch to being a charitable trust. The organisation has a robust (at least on paper) Equality and Diversity policy in place. The term “transgendered” appears every time it speaks about treating people equally.
I have a fixed term contract which runs till the end of the decade, when my work visa expires. I expect to apply for and be granted permanent residence at that point, and suppose that my employment will then become permanent.
I am entering my umpteenth childhood and am toying with the idea of testing this policy. So here is an open-ended question, to which I invite intelligent responses …
How would you suggest I out myself at work?
Krisi
07-18-2015, 08:44 AM
Just remember, people who give out advice on the Internet don't have to live with the results of that advice. These people are passing out advice from their own perspective and do not know your situation. Often their perspective is a bit skewed from the norm. It's your life and you are the one who will live with the consequences of the actions you take. In many cases, your family will also suffer the consequences or the actions you take.
Think long and hard before you do something that will affect the rest of your life.
pamela7
07-18-2015, 09:27 AM
is this being overcomplicated.
1. is there a dress code?
Yes - dress according to that - and seek permission for dress equality male-female ... so as to dress as the ladies do ...
No - wear smart ladies clothes and act normal
Dianne S
07-18-2015, 10:39 AM
Because we don't live in a perfect world!
Yes, I know that. All I'm saying is that it's our imperfect world at fault, not a "strongly heterosexual male [who] wants to wear womens clothes to work" and it's our imperfect world that deserves the criticism, not some person who harmlessly wishes to express himself.
If someone didn't like broccoli, would you say that it was a "burning question" why not? Obviously no; it's just a matter of taste. And the same should go for self-expression.
MelanieAnne
07-18-2015, 04:01 PM
With so many other places to "express himself", it blows my mind that someone would jeopardize their job and their income and their reputation, by expressing themselves at their place of employment. Your job is where you go to work for someone, and earn your living, not to express yourself! It appears I am not the only one who feels that way. I would invite the original poster to get back to us and let us know how it all worked out, both now and six months from now.
Umm WRT to the OP that was not the burning question asked by Gale but your interpretation . . . her question was about "how would we advise about outing herself at work (see below). That is what people (myself included) responded to.
If someone asked you the best way to jump off a bridge, would you try to tell them. Or would you tactfully suggest that it might not be such a good idea?
Playing devils advocate for a minute here. If one of my strongly male employees showed up in a dress, I might think he was setting me up for a lawsuit, or trying to get a reaction out of me. In any case, it's his decision to make, and live with. I'm done here.
Dianne S
07-18-2015, 07:12 PM
With so many other places to "express himself", it blows my mind that someone would jeopardize their job and their income and their reputation, by expressing themselves at their place of employment.
Some people have stronger feelings about the need for self-expression than others. Obviously, I would urge tremendous caution, but it's people like the OP (potentially) and our very own Isha who have the guts and courage to start changing things, and I admire them tremendously for that.
If someone asked you the best way to jump off a bridge, would you try to tell them.
That's not analogous at all. Millions of people were dresses, skirts, nail polish and earrings to work every day and live to tell the tale. Not so much for bridge-jumpers.
Just because you are too afraid to do this, you shouldn't come down hard on the OP. If she (sorry, I'm not sure which pronoun OP prefers) has the bravery to do this and the willingness to take the risk after carefully weighing the options, then that's incredibly wonderful.
Vickie_CDTV
07-18-2015, 08:56 PM
I think people here who are advising her not to are sincere in wanting to protect her. I don't know how it is in the UK, but over here jobs are hard to come by, especially jobs that pay an actual livable wage. If you have a good job, I'd definitely err on the side of caution and protect your job as much as possible, and avoid anything that may harm your job and your reputation. Even if they can't fire you, your coworkers and your businesses' customers may not like it and can cause you grief. Believe me, I am not unsympathetic, I am also a guy who likes to wear skirts etc. and I understand the desire to do so; I can dress how I like at work because I own my own business and work with trans people, but for most of my working life I would not have dared do this when I was working for someone else and where I was dependent on someone or some faceless group of people for my survival. It is not wrong to want to dress at work as you like. The problem is the risk involved, and the potential consequences.
Laws and policies are nice but it doesn't mean it will protect you if they can find a loophole. Murder is illegal, and yet people get away with it all of the time. If they can't fire you for dressing, they can find something else or make something up you can't disprove.
If you are bent on dressing at work, I would talk to the HR department, but remember... HR is not your friend, they work for your company and are looking out for them (they were once more accurately called the "personnel department", before someone somewhere decided to give it a more touchy-freely name.) You might be pegged as a possible liability in the future, officially or otherwise. Be careful.
Marcelle
07-18-2015, 09:53 PM
If someone asked you the best way to jump off a bridge, would you try to tell them. Or would you tactfully suggest that it might not be such a good idea?
Playing devils advocate for a minute here. If one of my strongly male employees showed up in a dress, I might think he was setting me up for a lawsuit, or trying to get a reaction out of me. In any case, it's his decision to make, and live with. I'm done here.
Again, I don't get what you are trying to imply . . . I did not say "do it" I provided the OP with an opinion on how she could go about discussing with her HR folks the potential of dressing in the manner she wishes to based on my own experience (as she requested). I never once tried to sell her on the idea or imply she "must do it". Goodness sake . . . read the replies before you launch with an unfounded and to be honest careless accusation.
Isha
MelanieAnne
07-18-2015, 09:59 PM
First of all, to you folks with an agenda, you can stop referring to the poster as "she".
In the very first sentence of the initial post, the poster states that "he" is strongly heterosexual, and never intends to present as female!
I am a strongly heterosexual MtF crossdresser, who is still in the closet. I have no desire to transition, or even present as a female.
Nadine Spirit
07-18-2015, 10:34 PM
.... I'm done here.
If that is so, then why this....
First of all, to you folks with an agenda, you can stop referring to the poster as "she"...
Lately you seem really hell bent on expressing your opinion here. Why? You said your peace. You said you were done. Why keep harping on it? Me thinks thou doth protest too much! Are you fearful of something? It sure seems like it. Are you jealous of those of us who are willing to express ourselves in the sacred place of work?
I totally get it, that we all of have our own opinions. It just seems as though you seem really intent that we all need to adopt your opinion as of late. Odd. On this one thread, 9 of the responses are yours. Odd. Why are you so invested in this particular discussion?
To the OP - I stick with my opinion. I think that for some of the other dressers who have lived their whole lives hiding in the closet, they have done so because they picture the world as a terrifying place and other people as ones to be suspect of and afraid of. Maybe if some of you start opening up a bit more you may well find the world to be different than what you suspect. This is coming from me, who at one time was totally closeted and is now almost totally out. And no, and I am not ever going to transition. I do not live full time. I cross dress and present as a woman as well as wear female items and present as a man. All while working, and in my personal life. And so far, I have been praised for being willing to be open and honest and trusting of my fellow humans.
No one can make this choice for you. But keep in mind there are those of us who think they know what is out there and there are those of us who actually know what is out there.
Katey888
07-19-2015, 04:42 AM
First of all, to you folks with an agenda, you can stop referring to the poster as "she".
In the very first sentence of the initial post, the poster states that "he" is strongly heterosexual, and never intends to present as female!
It seems as if Melanie is mistakenly conflating 'heterosexual' with 'not-transsexual' (or at least 'not identifying female') - which is a surprising belief for anyone who's been here any length of time. I'm heterosexual, identify male and yet I occasionally present as female - at those times and on this board, I prefer to be addressed as 'she' - it would feel strongly incongruous otherwise. Not only that, but it is the accepted form of etiquette here. :)
Now, the OP quite clearly indicated they were aware of some of the potential issues regarding coming out and stated a very clear question:
I am entering my umpteenth childhood and am toying with the idea of testing this policy. So here is an open-ended question, to which I invite intelligent responses …
How would you suggest I out myself at work?
Not: Should I, or If I, but HOW?
So to ensure an 'intelligent response' please make sure you address the question... :)
Katey
Moderator
GaleWarning
07-19-2015, 02:08 PM
Three pages! This is probably a record for a post by me.
I'm not going to get embroiled in the arguments. I have described myself and my intentions accurately and succinctly.
On Friday I wore the tie-dye T-shirt as planned. Everyone recognised that it was not my usual attire (usually jeans and industrial-strength tops in shades of blue or black). The shirt was gaudy, in shades of red, white and green.
Comments included, "Very Glastonbury!" and "You look like an aging hippy", to which I replied, "I remember 1967 very well."
Friday marked the start of the summer holidays and for the next four weeks there will be very few people at work and no students. It is clear to me that my options for stretching the limits carefully are limited. Probably only tops and perhaps jewellery. And not every day.
Remember, my aim is to test the authenticity of our Equality and Diversity Policy. It's a social issue.
Thanks for all your comments.
BTW - I prefer to be referred to as "he". Please respect my preference.
ReineD
07-19-2015, 02:55 PM
I see! It's an experiment of sorts. I can understand that. Good luck! :)
MelanieAnne
07-19-2015, 09:56 PM
It seems as if Melanie is mistakenly conflating 'heterosexual' with 'not-transsexual' (or at least 'not identifying female') - which is a surprising belief for anyone who's been here any length of time. I'm heterosexual, identify male and yet I occasionally present as female - at those times and on this board, I prefer to be addressed as 'she' - it would feel strongly incongruous otherwise. Not only that, but it is the accepted form of etiquette here.
Yes, I think most rational people would equate heterosexual with not-transsexual.
Remember, my aim is to test the authenticity of our Equality and Diversity Policy. It's a social issue.
I said in my first post, that I felt the poster was testing the limits.
BTW - I prefer to be referred to as "he". Please respect my preference
I rest my case! Carry on.
Badwolf
07-19-2015, 10:36 PM
Three pages! This is probably a record for a post by me.
I'm not going to get embroiled in the arguments. I have described myself and my intentions accurately and succinctly.
On Friday I wore the tie-dye T-shirt as planned. Everyone recognised that it was not my usual attire (usually jeans and industrial-strength tops in shades of blue or black). The shirt was gaudy, in shades of red, white and green.
Comments included, "Very Glastonbury!" and "You look like an aging hippy", to which I replied, "I remember 1967 very well."
Friday marked the start of the summer holidays and for the next four weeks there will be very few people at work and no students. It is clear to me that my options for stretching the limits carefully are limited. Probably only tops and perhaps jewellery. And not every day.
Remember, my aim is to test the authenticity of our Equality and Diversity Policy. It's a social issue.
Thanks for all your comments.
BTW - I prefer to be referred to as "he". Please respect my preference.
I'm happy to see you didn't get caught up in a lot of the emotional responses. It seems like you are comfortable bucking the system a bit, just be careful. I'm not sure what your life situation is but if you're ok with the risks go for it. The risks are real though. A lot of employers are more concerned about their time and the companies financials than your emotions.
A lot of the stuff you say like "wearing what you want no matter what department it came from" rings somewhat true for me as well, and the Trans movement has kind of leapfrogged TS concerns over other gender non-conforming lifestyles.
Marcelle
07-20-2015, 05:26 AM
Yes, I think most rational people would equate heterosexual with not-transsexual
I rest my case! Carry on.
Yup MelanieAnne . . . You are the winner!
I guess the next time an OP asks for an opinion on something, we'll just run it by you to make sure: (A) We are allowed to respond; and (B) It meets with your seal of approval.
A bit of information though, I am a heterosexual genetic male who happens to identify as a woman sometimes and as a man other times and when I am presenting as a woman, I prefer the appropriate gender pronouns as do many (including quite a few CDers). The OP never stated on the outset "HE" prefers either so common convention here is to use "she" unless the OP specifically says "I prefer he" and since the OP is sporting a female name, I went with "she" and not the generic statement.
"I think most rational people would equate heterosexual with not-transsexual" . . . HUH? You mean you can't be a trans unless you are gay? It might surprise you that there are probably quite a few trans woman (I know a couple) who liked "women" going in and still like women to this day.
But then again . . . you are the winner . . . So CARRY ON.
Isha
Dianne S
07-20-2015, 06:37 AM
Yes, I think most rational people would equate heterosexual with not-transsexual.
They'd be wrong, then. Sheesh, I can't believe someone posted that on this forum. Gender Identity 101 teaches that gender identity and sexual orientation are two completely separate and unrelated things.
Krisi
07-20-2015, 08:23 AM
Talk about thread drift ................
BTW: There seems to be a lot of nastiness towards other members being expressed here. We all come from different places, both physically and mentally and there are no "black and white" answers. It should be possible to disagree with someone without attempting to put them down.
GaleWarning
07-25-2015, 12:31 PM
Well, on Wednesday evening I was at the girlfriend's home when she asked me to get her a new battery for her watch. "Sure", I said. I removed my watch and put hers on my wrist. No comment from the girlfriend. On the way out the door I put on her sandals, almost androgynous-looking. The rest of my attire was male - shorts and a t-shirt, knobbly knees and hairy legs on display.
I walked about 200 metres to the shop which sells the batteries. I spent about 20 minutes there, talking about the Vietnam War with the Vietnamese man who served me. Very interesting! On the way back, I called in at a supermarket and bought some stuff.
I felt quite comfortable and no-one said anything or registered any sign at all. When I got back, the girlfriend made me take off her sandals. She was slightly uncomfortable. She thanked me for getting the battery.
On Friday I wore a cotton blouse, which the girlfriend had recently bought for me. It has a round collar and a mathematical design in black and white on it, which is quite fashionable right now. Cargo trousers, shoes and socks, and a light windbreaker completed my outfit. It was raining and cold for this time of year.
So no worries on the way to work, and while signing in. None of my colleagues commented when I removed the windbreaker. The day passed with all of us exchanging pleasantries and seemingly no problems. But I sensed an unease from some of my colleagues, who usually rag me and I them. Very little banter on Friday.
I'll be dressed in my usual clothing on Monday. We shall see if things return to normal.
(BTW - I am not worried about the equality and diversity thing any more - several interesting things have come to light in the last few days, which cannot be written about on this site.)
Saikotsu
07-25-2015, 02:33 PM
Ladies, Gentlemen,
Can we maybe calm down a little? This is becoming really ugly. We're better than this.
Anyway, as for the Original Post, I would recommend against outing yourself at work. However, if you are still intent on it, talk with HR first. Talk with your boss first too. Take it slow and carefully consider your options.
Krisi
07-25-2015, 08:07 PM
many have suggested that you not mix crossdressing and your job. Others have pointed out that you didn't ask if you should, you asked how. Others got sidetracked and started insulting each other.
If you choose to go ahead and "out" yourself at work, you might as well do it all at once like pulling off a Band-Aid. Get up early enough, get a good shave and makeup job, put on your forms, padding and wig and a dress or blouse and skirt appropriate for your job and just waltz in like you own the place. It might be uncomfortable for a while but that's better than just confusing people by wearing a combination of male and female clothes. Have a new name ready like Jenner did.
Remember though, you'll have to do this every day and you might have to shave and touch up your makeup in the middle of the day.
heatherdress
07-26-2015, 01:43 AM
You mean he might end up having to face all the same issues that women in the workplace currently face?
And maybe.. it's possible that work is actually the place he feels safest.. maybe his co-workers are prominent people in his life and maybe he's considering this move because he wants to come out in that way. There is no right and wrong way to come out.
And the OP has stated they wish to do this, and asked for advice on how to go about it but the majority of responses on here have nothing to do with advising him on what he wants, but telling/advising/strongly suggesting he doesn't do what he's already stated he wants to do. Opinions are fine people, but they are much better received when asked for.. on this occasion advice is more appropriate than opinions.
Abigail - One of the benefits of this site is that we can offer comments to support and help others. Frequently, a member expresses a desire to do something and others who might have experience or education or training will offer their thoughts and recommendations which might be different than the member expects to hear. Most people here want to help each other - not attack each other. Maybe you should spend less time criticizing well-intentioned opinions of others and think about your own contentious remarks and opinions before you attack others.
UNDERDRESSER
08-03-2015, 12:34 PM
If you choose to go ahead and "out" yourself at work, you might as well do it all at once like pulling off a Band-Aid. Get up early enough, get a good shave and makeup job, put on your forms, padding and wig and a dress or blouse and skirt appropriate for your job and just waltz in like you own the place. It might be uncomfortable for a while but that's better than just confusing people by wearing a combination of male and female clothes. Have a new name ready like Jenner did.
Remember though, you'll have to do this every day and you might have to shave and touch up your makeup in the middle of the day.Why would he want to do all that? Maybe, like myself, he doesn't want to appear as a woman, he just wants to be able to wear some clothes from the women's side of the aisle. I have been doing that for about the last 3 months. I'd say about half the people I interact with briefly during the day don't even notice that I'm wearing a skirt instead of shorts. Longer interactions I can sometimes detect a point where they realise, and mostly it's sort of "Skirt? oh, shrug, OK," and they they carry on. Sometimes they are constantly glancing at the skirt and away, as if they can't quite believe it, or maybe they are trying to come up with a question that won''t be considered offensive. I'd actually like it if they just straight out asked. You're right, I think, in that it does confuse people, but as long as there is no problem with my employers, and it doesn't impact my sales, ( which are up, by the way ) who cares? My GF is cool with it, and that is by far the the most important point for me. This is me, being me, and I feel better for it.
HelenR2
08-04-2015, 12:06 PM
My, (limited), experience tells me that a British Council, especially in a city like London, will already have policies in place for transgendered people and are probably more fair and understanding than most companies. Officials in their HR department, or whatever they bloody call it now, will quite possibly have got their job because they are gay or transgendered.
ReineD
08-05-2015, 04:47 AM
Yes, I think most rational people would equate heterosexual with not-transsexual.
MelanieAnne, the word "sexual" is used in two different contexts here. Heterosexual refers to a person's sexual preference (who they are attracted to). But transsexual refers to needing to transition from one sex to another, regardless of the TS's sexual preference. The "sexual" part of Transsexual refers to their male or female sexual anatomy.
So just as a heterosexual can be a man or a woman, a transsexual can be attracted to men or women.
Badtranny
08-05-2015, 11:43 AM
Because we don't live in a perfect world!
Well if every single closet case in the whole world would come out one day, the entire world would skooch just a little closer to perfect.
Judith96a
08-05-2015, 12:08 PM
GaleWarning,
Re outing yourself at work while on a fixed term contract at the end of which you hope to achieve permanent resident status etc.... I wouldn't, not if you want your permanent resident status confirmed! 'Robust' policies notwithstanding, if you make yourself "an issue" you could well discover that your application mysteriously "goes wrong". All it takes is for someone to write a less than convincing reference etc. Decide what your priorities are!
Sorry to rain on your parade but better safe than sorry!
MelanieAnne
08-07-2015, 09:57 PM
Posted by Dianne S
They'd be wrong, then. Sheesh, I can't believe someone posted that on this forum. Gender Identity 101 teaches that gender identity and sexual orientation are two completely separate and unrelated things.
Posted by ReineD
MelanieAnne, the word "sexual" is used in two different contexts here. Heterosexual refers to a person's sexual preference (who they are attracted to). But transsexual refers to needing to transition from one sex to another, regardless of the TS's sexual preference. The "sexual" part of Transsexual refers to their male or female sexual anatomy.
So just as a heterosexual can be a man or a woman, a transsexual can be attracted to men or women.
What does any of the above, have to do with the original post? The original poster clearly states he has no issues about sexual identity or orientation. I repeat, this is not a TG issue!
I am a strongly heterosexual MtF crossdresser, who is still in the closet. I have no desire to transition, or even present as a female.
Dianne S
08-08-2015, 07:18 AM
MelanieAnne, you cut out context. I was replying to a post of yours (which seems to have been deleted). You wrote something like "heterosexual != transsexual"
On one level, it's trivially true... the two words are not the same. However, I think most reasonable people would have read it as "heterosexual implies that you're not transsexual" which is simply not the case. The OP unfortunately inserted the "heterosexual" adjective for reasons unknown to me, because it makes no difference at all to the original posting.
Katey888
08-08-2015, 12:22 PM
'Kay - Done now...
I think the OP made it clear they weren't getting embroiled in other arguments and given that responses to the OP seemed to have dried up this subject is done until the time he comes back and reposts an update... :)
If someone wants to start a new and less cluttered discussion on the relationships between gender and sexuality, please feel free.
Katey
Moderator
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.