Has Jenner gone too far?

[Ilsa]

I'm beginning to believe that Caitlyn has taken her transition to the point of exploitation and if it wasn't bad enough being associated with the Kardashians and her own upcoming show it has now come to accepting an ESPY award for courage. Perhaps if the award was given in later years after we have seen how she's endured the ridicule and criticism of the life changing event I might accept this. But being so close to her coming out, the fan fair and paparrazi I think the presentation of the award is just seizing the moment for her and mostly ESPN. It's been nearly forty years since the Olympics and the award was given not for what happened then but for what has happened most recently. If Jenner had come out about her gender conflicts at that time the award might have been more warranted: 1. Because he at the time was the world's greatest athlete and 2. The seventies were a less tolerant time than they are now.

I live a quiet life as a crossdresser and enjoy my time as Ilsa and on occasion will venture out into a public place and hope I will be tolerated for who I am. I try not to bring attention to myself by being flamboyant and announcing it to the world and for the most part the people on this forum also live a quiet dignified existence as their other selves.

My concern is if this particular story will bring more of a negative light upon the crossdressing/trans community in the eyes of others rather than a positive one. I fear it's gotten to the point where Ms. Jenner is saying - Hey look at me, I'm an ex Olympic Gold medalist from 1976, was on the Wheaties box and now I'm a woman.

Jenner was never a modest character in anything she did and she certainly isn't showing it now. I was hoping that she would treat her transition with dignity and modesty, but I guess I was wrong. I'm just praying that all this glitz and glamour doesn't have a bad reflection on the rest of us.

As always,

:Angry3:Ilsa

P.S. Maybe all of us should be presented with an ESPY!

[~Joanne~]

I have to agree with you. She certainly doesn't deserve any awards, she has done nothing to help the TG cause other that get some spotlight and like you said, whether it's good or bad remains to be seen.

[Megan G]

So I'm not sure how you can say she has done nothing for the "TG Cause". Is awareness not enough? Is bringing the concerns of the trans community to the forefront of the media not enough?

She is spreading awareness at a level that has never been seen before. I say that is enough!!

As for the ESPY award, I have no problem with it....

[Isabella Ross]

Wow. You two are incredibly jaded. I don't always agree with the hoopla and fanfare, or the fact that the media has really confused the issue by suggesting every transgendered person wants to transition, but she's done more for our cause than you will probably ever realize. Yesterday on the golf course, someone brought her up...and then our foursome discussed it at length (god, if they only knew who they were golfing with...lol). Bottom line...one said he had a hard time "getting it", but the other two said that they accept her, respect her, and have learned a lot about TG as a result of the entire thing. And one even said, "She's pretty damn good looking!" I agreed. One more thing: at my nearest city, the theme of this year's pride parade is transgenderism...something that probably wouldn't have happened without Caitlyn bringing this to top of mind. I think you need to view the big picture.

[steftoday]

Gone too far?
No.
If what she's doing brings discussion and change, she has my gratitude. Personally, I plan on watching her documentary as well.

I really don't give a rat's ass about the other "famous" part of her family at all, though.

[Stephania]

She's not getting the award for TG, she's getting it for her Olympic years. It's really a shame when even the TG community doesn't educate themselves on what the award is actually for. Yes, she does deserve it.

[Robin414]

I think what she's doing is good, it starts conversations and brings credibility I think (Bruce Jenner was a highly respected super jock after all). That said I don't disagree with Ilsa in that it may bring some unwanted attention our way individually, even if it's good attention. I honestly don't really like interacting with the 'Gen pop' and prefer solitude most often 😑

[Cindi Johnson]

We need to stand up and be upfront with the world. Until we do, we will never be accepted. Caitlyn Jenner has done this, and I, for one, thank her for it.

[stefan37]

It's Caitlyn. She was an Olympic champion and Kardashisn circus aside is a celebrity. Transition is an extremely public process. There is no possible way she could have transitioned without the fanfare. She reached a point in her life when living as a male was no longer an option. Hero's and courage mean many things to different people. There may be a young teen or adult struggling with their own gender identity. Caitlyn's emergence could give that person the confidence and over come fear to take the steps necessary to achieve inner peace.

It amazes me how critical those that live in closet can be of those that live their lives authentically in public. What about those of us that don't have her money for surgical procedures and have to live as who we are with many male facial features and physiology. Should we be criticised for casting a bad reflection on the "Trans" comity.

[Sara Jessica]

Caitlyn will be a polarizing figure for a long time. The haters will hate what she represents and those in our camp will (for the most part, apparently) rally around her. It is those who are in between who are benefiting and continue to benefit from the life lesson she provides. If the most masculine of men with such accomplishments is trans, who can question ANY of us???

Bottom line, there is certainly debate on who "should" get the courage award. I doubt Caitlyn lobbied for it in any way. But I think there is a social aspect of the award which makes her a natural. What better time to give it than during the acute phase of her transition?

I for one look forward to seeing tonights show and hope the fallout afterwards is minimal, if any.

[Badtranny]

Well then, with all due respect I hardly think condemnation from a closeted CD is very worrisome to those that face the slings and arrows of transition.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you think it's easy to do what Caitlyn did, then you may need to open up that closet and let some fresh air in. She has all of the resources a TranSitioner could want and she STILL couldn't screw up the courage until she was 65.

Do you honestly think one of the most famous athletes in the world could undergo a gender transition without any media coverage? I can pretty much guarantee that if she had been trying to stay undercover with this the exact same peanut gallery would be yammering on about "what is she ashamed of?" "why is she hiding?" "she's making us all look bad cuz she won't own it!"

So Caitlyn is dealing with a public transition differently than you would. Guess what, so did I, and so did Stef, and so did Kaitlyn, and so did April, and so is Shasta, etc etc. We who lay our cards on the table, and bet everything we have tend to do things our own way. Caitlyn Jenner has done more to bring this issue into the limelight than anyone, and just because she doesn't speak specifically for me, doesn't mean she shouldn't have a voice. If she would have had the seeds to do this when I was 12, my life may have been completely different, so I am quite certain that countless very confused little boys and girls are a little bit less confused thanks to her.

She's my people, and she has my support.

[Robin414]

VERY well said Melissa!! 👍

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Ilsa
I have to agree with Sara Jessica, with all the cameras following
Caitlyn, it was only a matter of time before she was photographed and outed.
She really had no choice in my opinion. And don't think I believe for a single
minuet that you wouldn't capitalIze on your fame if you were in Cait's position.

Sorry Stephania, but your wrong. The Arthur Ashe Courage Award is given to people
who's courage transcends sports.
It has been awarded to 4 men that died in a plane crash on 911.
And Nelson Mandela has received one as well.
Caitlyn is receiving hers for the courage she has shown in coming out to the world
as a transgender woman.
I am interested to see how she handles her show, she states in the trailer for it that
she hopes to do some good. I'm sure she's seen plenty of messages, tweets , etc. about
how she has the deep pockets to have the safest, smoothest transition than most other people.
Will she address this issue? Maybe?
Much Love,
Kristyn

[Ineke Vashon]

It is still evident that the tallest tree catches the most wind.

Ineke
Had my wheaties this morning:yippee:

[paulaprimo]

i can agree, at first it did seem kinda early to announce such an award for Caitlyn, but after listening to her speech
tonight, which I think she nailed btw, I think she is most deserving and she will be a huge benefit for the trans community.
I cheered for bruce during the 76 games and i'm cheering for Caitlyn now... :)

[Jenniferathome]

How is she NOT courageous? She came out and is a public figure. She can only help the TG community in that she has already explained that cross dressing and transexulaism are unrelated.

[Robin414]

Exactly Jennifer, how can anyone
Disagree with her courage! We're all human regardless of income right!?

[Megan70]

I agree 100% with Ilsa on everything she says. An Epsy award,.... c'mon! political correctness to the umpteenth degree, a lot of public false hero worship of oh look at her,..... so what . let her live her life in peace but please Caitlin , don't milk it for the cameras of the TV show. Its not fair and just to the thousands of other TG community members who live their lives and some suffer quietly. So much for the flag waving.

[docrobbysherry]

Caitlyn: Admire her or resent her as u will.

But, can ANYONE say she hasn't created an awareness and discussion about trans like never before, can they!?

[grace7777]

I do not think there is any way Caitlyn could have kept it quiet.

The way I see it Caitlyn blows a lot of stereotypes of the Transgendered community right out of the water. Even with all the money she has it takes a lot of courage to transition with the press following your every move. I do not worship Caitlyn, but I respect her a great deal.

[Samantha2015]

I'm not TS or TG so I can't even comment on the issues they deal with. I did watch Caitlyn's speech on the ESPY show and I thought it was heartfelt and sincere. If her story can help one person who might be considering hurting themselves to reconsider,
is that not worth it ??
I think it's still too early in her transition to judge what her impact, positive or negative, will be on the TG community. I think the public is still trying to come to terms with her transition as well.
She did look very pretty I thought. Must be nice to have hair,makeup & wardrobe artists work on you.

[Princess Chantal]

I have a great appreciation and respect for Caitlyn. I find that she tries to redirect the attention off of her and her personal struggles to the important issues that face the transgender community (many in which she was lucky enough to not have to face).

[Alexis08]

To me, she hasn't gone far. She help raising awareness about TG more than others did and definitely deserves the award.

[Suzanne F]

I can't believe she is being criticized here. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but it astounds me. Do you realize she was standing up in a room full of jocks? Here she was out in front of the sports world. Not a historically accepting group of people.

I don't agree with everything Caitlyn does. Nor would I want to. However, I am out in the world as a trans woman every day. I don't want to hide anymore. In about 3 months I will face my final hurdle when I come out to the home office. At least my employer will have a vague understanding of what I am talking about thanks to Caitlyn.

I know that many here like to point out the differences between cross dressers and Trans women and even dispute who is TG. I would like to know one person here who has never felt shameful about their femininity. Then ask yourself where that came from. Then thank Caitlyn for having the courage to stand up at a damn Espy award ceremony as a woman. I am so tired of the attempt by some here to cling to their damn male privilege. If you are that male you ought to be fully out fighting for the rest of us TG people's right to live authentic lives!

Suzanne

[PaulaQ]

I try not to bring attention to myself by being flamboyant and announcing it to the world and for the most part the people on this forum also live a quiet dignified existence as their other selves.

I'm just praying that all this glitz and glamour doesn't have a bad reflection on the rest of us.



Actually, the willingness of some to keep quiet and not say anything that might make cisgender folks uncomfortable is what makes us all look bad.

[Marcelle]

Hi Ilsa,

I am going to have to disagree with you on a few of your points. The award Caitlyn received was predicated on her courage to come out to the world as a trans woman which as many who have done so and have posted here can attest is no easy thing. I do not consider myself TS but I am about as public as I can be in that my world (the military) has seen and met Marcelle and that was no easy thing to do . . . I have given up a lot . . . and that cannot even compare to those who give up everything to become the gender they need to be full time. Caitlyn's very public transition has helped me immensely in that more people are aware of TG issues and when they meet me, they may think I am a trans woman ("Oh you are like Caitlyn Jenner") and that gives me an opportunity to educate on what being TG means for me.

Is Caitlyn using this public outing to her advantage? Well, I can say in my own case, acceptance for who I am on any level feels good and helps ease the angst of being public, so yes, it is an advantage to her to have such an overwhelming show of support across a wide spectrum. Is there monetary gain for her that the average trans woman will never achieve? Yes, but she had monetary privilege before due to her status as an Olympia and a public figure throughout her life. Does she crave the attention? Quite possibly as people who have once lived in the limelight tend to want to stay there . . . it is human nature. Do any of these make her a bad person or someone incapable of representing the Trans community? IMHO . . . no. It is because she is such a public figure that it helps us. Nobody is going to write articles about me coming out at work nor are they likely to write articles about all the trans persons who serve quietly in the Canadian military . . . so if a public figure is going to draw attention to us as a community and gains some notoriety and accolades along the way, I say that is a good thing. :)

Cheers

Isha

[Sarah-RT]

I woke up this morning, lit up a cigarette and went on Facebook to wake myself up. I had no idea the espys were a thing or that they took place last night. I read and saw some horrible comments on posts from espn about caitlyn and carried on scrolling until I got to seeing a couple of posts that had been liked by my friends, it was a quote from Jenner and kept appearing on my newsfeed, it read : " if you want to call me names, make jokes, doubt my intentions GO AHEAD. Because the reality is..I CAN TAKE IT. But for the thousands of kids out there coming to terms with who they are, they shouldn't have to take it!"

Even though I'm almost 25 I still feel I am one of those kids, 10 years on from when I was 15 and realised that this was something I did, it's only been in the last few months any of my friends have seen me dressed, or a photo or that I've had a discussion in person with any of them, some of that was because of the exposure caitlyn put on herself and a lot of it to do with same sex marriage becoming legal in many countries, while I'm not gay, the message of acceptance radiating from these moments are helping me feel like me, not as some monster to hide at home AFRAID.

I've no interest in any of the kardashians, I hate hearing about them, I can't stand Kanye west and while Jenner is not the first transsexual celebrity, her family have dominated media coverage that she has a stage to support, express and lead the acceptance for transgender people.

Sarah x

[Katey888]

I have to say I can't understand the apparent envy shown to Caitlyn for being proud and courageous about who she is... and to have that recognised by any institution - but particularly so by one not directly associated with the trans* movement - is a serious accolade and well deserved. I think we've been round the debates enough about whether or not CJ has some advantage - clearly she does. But the fact that she's prepared to take that and use it for the benefit of illuminating a cause that needs some highlighting and support says to me that this means more to her than just her personal gain.

In another world would anyone be prodding Princess Di for doing a similar thing? "Oh yeah - she's just wearing body armour and poking around in unsurveyed minefields because she needs the coverage in 'Hello' magazine..." :facepalm:

Caitlyn is walking her own minefield at the moment - I believe it is incumbent upon everyone who feels they are whatever part of this community to at least respect what personal courage that takes as a reflection of all those who transition and who need the moral support to do so. For that she gets my unequivocal support for any positive awareness she can bring. :clap:


Nobody is going to write articles about me coming out at work nor are they likely to write articles about all the trans persons who serve quietly in the Canadian military . . .

And I think I have to disagree with this too... ;) Maybe you don't have quite the paparazzi pull that Caitlyn does, Isha, but I would expect your equally heroic efforts will be recognised, documented and applauded more publicly sometime in the not too distant future... :)

Katey x

[Mollyanne]

Everyone has their own opinion of what Caitlyn did or did not do. I personally feel that for her she did the only thing that made her happy and whole. If I had her resources I would do the entire thing. I just hope that when she does her show it does not turn into a circus like her family's show, what a bummer!!!!!

Molly

[Maria 60]

I do have respect for Bruce only because when he received the award I didn't hear I or me. Instead I heard him talk about others and to pass a massage about others accepting us. Which is far away still, but I have to disagree with you, maybe he didn't deserve the award but he didn't do anything wrong to our community. He's trying to do something that no one has ever done, stand up and defend us, that must have taken a lot of courage to do what he is doing, especially being in the cameras eye all the time.

[Dianne S]

What the heck? It's nobody's business how Caitlyn Jenner or anyone else lives her life. Just because someone is famous, it doesn't mean the peanut gallery gets to comment on how she should behave.

Leave her alone. If you think it's a circus, just don't watch and don't read about it.

[Princess Chantal]

Great thing about it was that the yesterday (the day after the MLB all star game) is notoriety for being the slowest day in sports.

[mykell]

hi ilsa,
living in the now is what ms jenner has begun to do, I will support her and could only dream of what i would do myself if i had her resources....although i know about the kardashian group i didnt follow them...did like some of theyre clothing line in the stores....they were a marketing machine, so their is know way jenner will fly under the radar...what little i have seen about some of the interviews i could relate too and wish that my wife would listen to them, she could learn from them but I know she never will.

as far as the award, never been a fan of any award shows that air, too much pomp and circumstance for my liking and they seam to make them up as they go these days so take it from where it comes from....

overall i dont see how any of this could not be seen as positive....

[bimini1]

I believe her whole life has been in preparation for this current moment. And from what I've seen and heard so far she is knocking the ball out of the park. There are a lot of deserving folks who could have received this award. And she is one of them. There are times when my own internalized transphobia rears its head and says I just wish this would all go away because it forces me to have to hear all the naysayers. But it's time for me to grow up and face it. At the end of the day what people like Caitlyn, Laverne Cox and Janet Mock have said, shown and are doing in the mainstream public consciousness helps me and I know it helps others.

[Sara Jessica]

Win for our community, I'm sure, because of the exposure and increased awareness.

Win for ESPN/ABC as they suckered me into watching two hours of an award show I had not previously seen two minutes of.

Yep, only two hours. Seems it went on past my bedtime and I fell asleep before Caitlyn's big moment. I guess I'll have to see if it'll be replayed on ESPN, or there's always Youtube.


I do have respect for Bruce only because when he received the award I didn't hear I or me. Instead I heard him talk about others and to pass a massage about others accepting us. Which is far away still, but I have to disagree with you, maybe he didn't deserve the award but he didn't do anything wrong to our community. He's trying to do something that no one has ever done, stand up and defend us, that must have taken a lot of courage to do what he is doing, especially being in the cameras eye all the time.

I'm trying to figure out what part of Caitlyn's actions and presentation calls for the use of Bruce/him/he. We have come to expect this from the Muggles but I'd think there would be more sensitivity in these pages.

[Jackie7]

Isha, not Ilsa, completely agree with your post.... Except one point. You say that nobody is going to write newspaper articles about your coming out in the Canadian military, but I am sure you are wrong about that. As an old-time newspaper worker, I would bet you that if you were to tip off the Toronto Star or the Globe and Mail, they would be all over you. because you too have an amazing story that catches the cultural wave of the moment. And you are home-grown in Canada, not a U.S. Import.

[Rhonda Jean]

I have no interest in who gets an ESPY. The award itself aside, I think she's doing a lot of good. I've come around on that. Prior to her coming out, the rumors, the sniping by the media was all so ugly and destructive. She had no privacy, which is something we all value so highly and need so desperately. She had no choice but to do this publicly. It was going to be public either on her terms or the terms of a sensationalized media. I think overall she's done a good job. A lot of how well she's done and how well she's accepted is due to the way she looks. I was afraid this was gong to be a train wreck. I was afraid she'd just look like Bruce in makeup and a dress. She looks fabulous, and that goes a long way toward her being accepted.

I get out a lot. I may be imagining it, but my pubic interactions have a different vibe now. I had one interaction a while back (that I mentioned here) that was negative, and probably more negative because of all the recent news. The overall vibe I get is more positive.

Trans stuff is so common to all of us that it's easy to forget that it's so foreign, misunderstood, and even unknown to the general population. I do think that the effect on kids will be huge and overwhelmingly positive.

[larry]

I certainly am in no position to criticize anyone. And mean no disrespect. I am a little confused though with this whole thing. I am a SECRET crossdresser.
All this attention about someone who ( as far as I know ) has not really Transitioned at all. If I had the money maybe I would have BA also. Then I would also be a crossdresser out to the world. Just saying..

[~Joanne~]

She's not getting the award for TG, she's getting it for her Olympic years. It's really a shame when even the TG community doesn't educate themselves on what the award is actually for. Yes, she does deserve it.

The Arthur Ashe Courage Award (sometimes called the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage or Arthur Ashe for Courage Award) is an award that is part of the ESPY Awards. Although it is a sport-oriented award, it is not limited to sports-related people or actions, as it is presented annually to individuals whose contributions "transcend sports". Often these transcendent figures are also athletes who have been at the top of their sport, such as Muhammad Ali, Dean Smith, and Cathy Freeman.

Jenner hasn't been on top of any sport since 1976. So if given for someone that "transcend sports", what was done to have earned it? it's like giving Obama the peace prize every year. Sorry I don't automatically buy into the hype but there are probably a lot of other people out there that deserve this award before she did. ESPN is playing a popularity game, nothing more.

[Karen RHT]

I'm somewhat of a latecomer to the whole CJ story. Perhaps one reason for that is I barely recognize the Kardashian name, and have zero interest in so called "reality" television. I do recall the Olympic accomplishments of Bruce Jenner, but he fell to the back of my memory banks like so many other athletes, celebrities, and other persons of fame and fortune have. I'm not familiar with the Arthur Ashe Award qualifications, so I'm not in a position to judge whether Caitlyn Jenner does or does not deserve the award. Over coffee this morning, I came across a brief write up acknowledging that CJ had won the award. My interest rose when I read this quote from CJ's acceptance speech:

"Trans people deserve something vital, they deserve your respect," she added. "From that respect comes a more compassionate community."

Think as you will about why CJ would say those words. Personally, I don't care why she said them, only that she did.


Karen

[Krisi]

Not to take anything away from Ms. Jenner's accomplishments, or what she may be doing for transgender people, but I don't think her courage matches what it takes to fight a war in a foreign country or even be a police officer or firefighter in this country. Those are the people who should be getting "courage" awards.

[Megan G]

My god people, get a grip. Melissa and Stefan hit the nail on the head with their comments about how a group of closeted CD'ers can be so condemning about someone who is bringing awareness to the world.

Until you step out of your own closet you have no basis to judge how much courage it takes to do this. Try it and you will find out just like Melissa, Stefan, myself and others have. And we don't have the media chasing us at all times.

I am sure the courage to run into battle is way more than coming out publicly as Caitlyn did but this is not about them. This is about sports stars and yes Jenner is one of them. Her courage has transcended her sporting achievements so in my eyes she deserves this award as to me what she has done outweighs a decathlon gold medal. Is ESPN just jumping on a politically correct media bandwagon? I could care less, this is good for those of us that live publicly as trans...

[Ilsa]

TO EACH HIS OR HER OWN OPINION

For Isha and all others that served their country.

A comparison to then and now and how it was covered by the media and how each individual handled it.

No opinion on my part. Just a history lesson.

http://www.christinejorgensen.org/MainPages/Home.html

Ilsa

[Jennifer0874]

Caitlyn's message last night seemed very important. She made it clear it wasn't only about her and made sure to focus on the most vulnerable and what they are going through.

I'm tired of the negativity thrown Jenner's way. I thought the Diane Sawyer interview was excellent and really gave those who didn't understand an idea of what transsexuals go through.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I for one am extremely greatful for the awareness she is bringing to the general public about tg people. This kind of steady exposure is part of what will help us be viewed as normal by mainstream society, thereby making it easier for all of us to be us. Wether or not she deserved this award, the fact that they gave it to an open tg person over anyone else for courageously coming out is a huge victory for our community. As far as kanye west, I dont care for his personality but the fact that a popular rapper is accepting and even being in photos with a ts and treating her like family is also a huge win.

[Suzanne F]

I do have respect for Bruce only because when he received the award I didn't hear I or me. Instead I heard him talk about others and to pass a massage about others accepting us. Which is far away still, but I have to disagree with you, maybe he didn't deserve the award but he didn't do anything wrong to our community. He's trying to do something that no one has ever done, stand up and defend us, that must have taken a lot of courage to do what he is doing, especially being in the cameras eye all the time.

This is unacceptable! How can someone on this forum use the wrong name and pronoun for a TS person? Please correct this now!
Suzanne

[Helen 2]

We need to stand up and be upfront with the world. Until we do, we will never be accepted. Caitlyn Jenner has done this, and I, for one, thank her for it.

Amen......well said, Cindi....

[CONSUELO]

I don't know the conditions for choosing candidates for the EPSY award but they chose Caitlyn and that is the end of that. Sure there are lots of heroines and heroes in this World and many go unremarked but Caitlyn did something very courageous. Many on this site talk of how frightening it is to "come out" to family, friends, colleagues. Well Caitlyn came out to the whole World so before criticising her maybe we should at least do our own "coming out". Perhaps then we shall learn what courage it takes. How would any member of this site like being on the news, on the covers of supermarket tabloids, being the butt of foulmouthed jokes and even shear hatred from the Twitterati Trolls. I would guess none of us.

SO FOR ME CAITLYN IS A TRUE HEROINE. I THINK SHE LOOKS BEAUTIFUL AND I WISH HER EVERY SUCCESS. SHE IS A GREAT AMBASSADOR FOR ALL OF US WHO LURK IN THE SHADOWS.

[Beverley Sims]

Ilsa,
Some just have to make the most of a particular situation.

Time and actions in the future will tell, I am sure.

[AngelaYVR]

My wife brought home a copy of the now famous Vogue magazine. She never really liked to have any discussion about the nuts and bolts of what I do (although she did, bless her, allow me to do it.) She knows I don't have any aspirations to go all the way but the article allowed to see that I'm not just being odd, that it is something that I always had squirreled away inside. Since then, she has been much more open to talking about it ... and asking to borrow more things as well (no, I don't have a "skirt weight" for cycling!)
So from a purely selfish position, I am happy for CJ and really, isn't this what we have been wanting for a long time, for a standard bearer to illuminate the shadows?

[JamieG]

Caitlyn's message last night seemed very important. She made it clear it wasn't only about her and made sure to focus on the most vulnerable and what they are going through.

I'm tired of the negativity thrown Jenner's way. I thought the Diane Sawyer interview was excellent and really gave those who didn't understand an idea of what transsexuals go through.

What she said! I heard the speech this morning. Prior to that, I had reserved my judgment of Caitlyn, but it is clear that she wants to use her fame to help the cause. She thanked the TG pioneers that came before her, and brought light to the alarming rates of TG suicide and murder. She is willing to take the jokes, insults, and looks of disgust, in the hope that one day TG kids won't have to. She certainly has more courage than I do. I say, "Brava, Caitlyn, Brava!"

[Cheryl T]

I agree that her visibility is giving the cause a well deserved boost and it is causing much more conversation than ever before. Celebrity status obviously has garnered much press and most of it good. I dare say none of us would have had the effect she is having.

That being said I think the award was a spotlight grab by ESPN. There were many other candidates that were equally deserving if not more so.

[Dianne S]

but I don't think her courage matches what it takes to fight a war in a foreign country or even be a police officer or firefighter in this country.

I don't think the situations are remotely comparable. Each requires a different sort of courage and each should be celebrated.

I bet plenty of war vets would not have the courage to do what transitioning people do and vice-versa.

[natalie_cheryl]

has anyone else heard the story that came out this a.m. saying that she essentially forced her way into getting the award last night? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3163299/Caitlyn-Jenner-s-reps-demanded-ESPYs-award-exchange-PR-plugs-Diane-Sawyer-interview.html im not really familiar with this site/mag i hope this is not true though it would really take away from all the positive things

[Eryn]

Being a public figure, Jenner could either try to stay hidden and be exploited by the press and the tabloids, or come out and control the situation on her terms. She made the correct choice, both for her and for our community. This is how she makes her living and I don't begrudge her the ability to do so.

As far as pushing her way into the award, the fact remains that ESPN had a lot more to gain from it than Jenner and the decision about the award was made after the interview. IMO, this rumor is sour grapes from the tabloid press who are trying to regain the initiative. The previous year award went to Michael Sam, an openly gay American football player who tried out unsuccessfully for an NFL team. Jenner is a highly-regarded Olympic champion. There is no question of the appropriateness of the award.

[stefan37]

Courage is the act of overcoming fear and taking action in spite of fear. Courage comes in many variations and form.
One's definition of a hero will vary from individual to individual. One's hero may not be my hero. It's absolutely mind boggling the hate and condensending opinions of the closeted and "tranny elite". If her journey inspires 1 young adult that is struggling. And that inspiration allows that young adult to be who they are and thrive in life. Then her journey and struggle has value.

Yes she has fame and money. Yes her money allowed procedures to physically alter herself to more closely align who she is. But make no mistake. The emotional toll is great and no less easy than another transitioner. I would say even much harder as she is a public figure and any disparaging remarks are public fodder.
It's too bad if her or any of our transitions doesn't meet the approval of others. We don't transition for others. We transition for ourselves.

[arbon]

I do have respect for Bruce only because when he received the award I didn't hear I or me. Instead I heard him talk about others and to pass a massage about others accepting us. Which is far away still, but I have to disagree with you, maybe he didn't deserve the award but he didn't do anything wrong to our community. He's trying to do something that no one has ever done, stand up and defend us, that must have taken a lot of courage to do what he is doing, especially being in the cameras eye all the time.

Whats that all about? Your like saying you support her and what she is doing but saying it in the most disrespectful and mean way that you can? Talk about how far away acceptance is!!

[Emme]

I wish I could call Caitlyn and thank her!!!!!!!!!!!!

[emma5410]

has anyone else heard the story that came out this a.m. saying that she essentially forced her way into getting the award last night? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3163299/Caitlyn-Jenner-s-reps-demanded-ESPYs-award-exchange-PR-plugs-Diane-Sawyer-interview.html im not really familiar with this site/mag i hope this is not true though it would really take away from all the positive things

The Daily Mail (or Daily Fail as it is called) is a right wing newspaper that is hardly trans friendly. This link sums them up nicely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI

[Pat]

has anyone else heard the story that came out this a.m. saying that she essentially forced her way into getting the award last night? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3163299/Caitlyn-Jenner-s-reps-demanded-ESPYs-award-exchange-PR-plugs-Diane-Sawyer-interview.html

I saw that, but you'll note that it says "Caitlyn Jenner's Reps Demanded..." in other words, it was negotiated at the agent level. That's the agent's job and more power to them. :) It doesn't take away anything from her accomplishments nor from her awesome speech.

[Michelle789]

Thank you Melissa and Suzanne!!! Very well said.

Caitlyn's coming out has made us more visible to the world. People now know what being transgender is all about, and are aware that we exist and that we are real human beings. Plenty of people who knew nothing about us are were unaccepting towards us have become accepting of us. I even heard, and I wish I could find the survey to back this up, that the percentage of people that accept us has gone from less than a quarter of the population to two thirds of the population. This is everybody accept the extreme right wing religious fundamentalists, TERFS, and some hard core atheists/scientific minds like my father.

Thank you Melissa for pointing out that Caitlyn waited until 65 to transition. She suffered for 65 long years of her life before finally coming out. Many of us here transitioned sooner, yet we all waited a long time. I waited 34 long years of my life to finally begin transition. Some of us waited 20 long years, 42 long years, 50 long years, 58 long years, 73 long years, 28 long years. And those are very, very, very LONG years of suffering with GD. Caitlyn suffered for 65 of those LONG years. Just because she had all the money and best resources in the world didn't stop her from suffering with the same GD that many of us here suffered with. It didn't give her the courage to transition younger. It didn't spare her from losing 65 years of her life.

Thank you Suzanne for mentioning male privilege. I do notice that it tends to be people who don't have male privilege, either cis-women who never had it, or transwomen who gave it up, who tend to be the activists. There are plenty of people with male privilege who simply don't want to fight, and why would they, because being a cis-gender heterosexual white male comes with all the privileges you could ever have in this world - they have nothing to fight for.

I would like to give a special thanks to two transgender activists, one who is an active member of this forum. Caitlyn Jenner, and PaulaQ. Thank you both for the wonderful work you have done for the trans community. Caitlyn for coming out, being yourself, and making people aware that we exist, and with all the media scrutiny. Paula thank you for all the hard work you have done on this forum for helping people struggling with serious gender issues to get the courage to accept themselves and to transition, for all the work you have done for the CDers on this forum, and for the work you have done in Texas. Both have given up their male privilege and their cis-gender hetero-normative privilege.

[S. Lisa Smith]

There is little to add to this discussion, except go on record (for what little that is worth) that I support CJ and feel like she is doing us all a great service!

[BethCD]

I agree totally with you Isabella! She has let all of us to be seen in a much better light. Best thing ever, even if she is making some money from, she is advancing our cause. :)

[Sharon B.]

Rumor has it that they had to give that award in order for Diane Sawyer to get that interview and broadcast it on ABC. Money talks Bull Sh*t walks.

[Jenniferathome]

Come on Sharon. That's just rumor mongering.

[Barbara Jo]

Exploitation?

I don't know it it was already mentioned but, let's all keep in mind that Cait has a new "reality" show to debut soon called, "I Am Cait" .
Like most all so-called reality shows, I wounder how much will be staged.

Also, as I understand it, her show is from the producers of the Kardashians .
So, will the circus continue?
Can a media circus really promote "our cause" if she becomes some kind of a freakish realty show character to the general public?

Sure we understand and support her but, what about the general public?
As it is, they have a hard time separating someone like Rue Paul from a TS

[Eryn]

Let's do a reality check. Would Jenner, who has a honest-to-God Olympic gold medal, demand a minor award from a cable channel in order to have a prime-time interview with one of the most-respected people in network television? Not likely!

The reason she went with ABC is obvious. Bruce did a lot of work with ABC in the past so it is logical for Jenner to work with people that are known. The idea of a quid pro quo is ridiculous.

[Julogden]

I pretty much disagree with everything that you said.

She deserves the award. She's been through plenty of crap in the media for a long time leading up to coming out. She was the target of tons of rude comments. Coming out under the microscope as a celebrity takes a ton of bravery.


Actually, the willingness of some to keep quiet and not say anything that might make cisgender folks uncomfortable is what makes us all look bad.

Amen!

[Barbara Jo]

There seems to be some truth to it......
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3163299/Caitlyn-Jenner-s-reps-demanded-ESPYs-award-exchange-PR-plugs-Diane-Sawyer-interview.html

Keep in mind that ABC and ESPN are both owned by Disney. So, it was a win-win situation for them in the end .

[Eryn]

You do realize that the Daily Mail is reporting on a story that appeared on an online gossip site, and that the Daily Mail itself is the British version of the National Enquirer with a bit of a Fox Network bent? Not exactly a reliable source!

[Jazzy Jaz]

If she continues to create this level of awareness and oppertunity for education about us then the answer is yes wether some percieve it as a media circus or not. She has already promoted our cause to unprecidented levels. Michelle789 I agree with alot of what you say and I definately ackowledge that male privilege exists and can be a huge issue, however there are people with male privilege who do stand up and fight, Isha is a shining example of this. The fact that many of us who have the ability to hide feel that we need to utilize this ability to hide WHO WE ARE shows just how much we do have to fight for. I greatly respect every ts who is out to the world and cant turn around and retreat but I also respect those who can but choose not to. And also those of us who take a step at a time and come out and create awareness to individuals also make a difference, we all have the ability to play a role. I give praise to all of our couragous leaders including Caitlyn, PaulaQ, and Isha regardless of where you sit on the spectrum.

[Alice Torn]

The male voice that Jenner is using, surprised me a bit. I did not hear any attempt to use a ladyish voice! Gives me hope! Because i can't make a decent lady voice, either.

[Tracii G]

This whole argument I hear over social media about CJ' award has brought out so many people I know and like as huge homophobes and bigots, its a sad day.
The "courage" thing has people tearing each other apart both straight and trans Y'all need to stop being so petty.
Had a friend today talking about this CJ stuff and the courage thing and he said putting on a bra and skirt, carrying a purse isn't courage.
I asked him very bluntly lets see how much courage you have go put on a skirt and a bra and email me the pic.
He said no way man to which I said you ain't man enough is that what you are saying?
Boy he got PISSED.
I was waiting for him to counter back to which I would have said yeah no big deal I've done it before then see what happened. He just glared at me like what just happened.
He was such a prick today.
But go CJ either way I'm just tired of all the anti CJ crap from the trans community.

[Badtranny]

I love how all of these :edit: closet queens are so convinced that it doesn't take courage to come out and announce to the world that you've been living a lie for your whole life.

Oh sure, she's rich, but so what? I betcha there are plenty of closeted people on this forum who have more than enough money to handle a transition. Money does not give you the kind of courage you need to come out as transgender to the whole damn world. All of these CD's that are complaining would report me to the mods immediately if I said anything as remotely mean to them as Caitlyn sees every single day on the the news!

How many here would sign up for the vitriol she gets blasted with on social media? I'm thinking not very many because I see a lot of hurt feelings around here cuz of all the 'mean' TS girls and we're all kittens compared to the people out there.

This is why I give the closet cases such a hard time. Because what they lack in perspective is more than made up for in hubris.

[Barbara Jo]

You do realize that the Daily Mail is reporting on a story that appeared on an online gossip site, and that the Daily Mail itself is the British version of the National Enquirer with a bit of a Fox Network bent? Not exactly a reliable source!

It's more than the DM.
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&nfpr=1&q=Caitlyn+Jenner's+reps+'demanded+ESPYs+award+in+e xchange+for+PR+plugs+and+Diane+Sawyer+interview&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0CBsQBSgAahUKEwi7yZCuiOHGA


Cait is obviously very media savvy but, of course it still remains to be seen it this "scandal" is true or not.

[Michelle789]

I just watched a clip of the interview and some commentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz0LetfzMsc

I want to say that I am really proud of you Caitlyn for standing up for the trans community as a whole.

I really like that she sees this not about herself, but as a civil rights frontier for the entire trans community.

I also like that the media is using the correct pronouns and calling her Caitlyn, while in the past the media has had a tendency to mis-gender trans people and refer to them by their birth names.

So yes, Caitlyn Jenner's coming out has done tremendous good for the trans community.

[Robin414]

I heard part of her award speach and I almost cried, way to go Caitlin!!! A local shock jock radio station even made positive comments and complimented her!!

[grace7777]

Watching Caitlyn at the Espy Awards did cause a tear to run down my cheek.

Winning a gold medal in the decathlon was a great achievement, but I feel she will achieve far much more in the future advocating for the transgender community.

I agree with Michelle789 that it was great to see the media not migender her.

Having a reality show is not necessarily a bad thing. Personally, I feel the show will end up doing a lot of good.

[Barbara Dugan]

I only see positive things on the way Caitlyn is handling her transition and moved me to tears the way she is taking a maternal instinct aproach to protect transgender youth

[AletaHawk]

I've lost count of the number of positive conversations I've been able to have in public about trans rights as a result of the attention Caitlyn has brought to the issue. And all without ever having to identify myself as trans. That alone means so much to me.

Having watched her speech live last night, I was amazed at how much she clearly gets it, and understands the importance of awareness. It's not really about her, and she knows that.

[emma5410]

You really can't win if you are TS. If you live in stealth then you are betraying the transgender 'movement', if you are visible like Caitlyn, and lets face it you cannot get much more visible, then you are exploiting it for your own ends.
I really think we should split TS from CD so the TS can get on with being out there and changing minds and the CD can sit in their closets and bitch about how unfair the world is.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Ilsa you are just singing from your own selfish and hymnbook. You can certainly want what you want but unfortunately you live in a tiny hidden world and are threatened by people that squeeze it.

Your cross dressing has nothing to do with Caitlyn Jenner except that you don't like it because it scares you. Transsexuals would be better off not having anything to do with people like you

Don't go out. Leave us alone. That's my advice

[Princess Chantal]

Looks like the thread has transitioned to a bashing of crossdressers

[mbmeen12]

I was at work yesterday in an all Alpha male environment. A individual mention the the award/show and some rude comments. I rebutted that, "IF " she saves one young person's life whom is contemplates suicide, then its worth 15 mins on TV. I also followed with, "and what if it was your son or daughter who is with the GID"? he replied "wow good point".
//Kara//

[paulaprimo]

Looks like the thread has transitioned to a bashing of crossdressers

its such a shame that we fight for acceptance but can't even get along with each other.
if this is how some of you hardliners communicate to members I can see why we are
not accepted... how can we advance as a group when you shame members deeper
into the closet...

[Dianne S]

Looks like the thread has transitioned to a bashing of crossdressers

I think the OP's first post was not appropriate, and people reacted strongly.

Look, I totally get people who have to stay in the closet. I'm not judging them. But if you stay in the closet, one of the tradeoffs you're making is that you lose the right to have input in how transgender people present themselves to the public, to the press, etc. We, the people who are living this full-time or even part-time but publicly, are the ones who have to fight for our community while the closet-dwellers simply enjoy the fruits of our struggle.

If you choose not to participate, please don't criticize those who do.

[Princess Chantal]

So should a person that transitioned or is going thru the process of transitioning and chooses to live her life in stealth trades off the right of her input as well?
For the record I had participated in the thread previously and was not criticizing just pointing out where direction of the thread was leading to

[Rianna Humble]

You do realize that the Daily Mail is reporting on a story that appeared on an online gossip site, and that the Daily Mail itself is the British version of the National Enquirer with a bit of a Fox Network bent? Not exactly a reliable source!

It's more than the DM.

So basically you are acknowledging that the rumour you are spreading against Caitlyn Jenner came from unreliable Internet gossip and was then picked up by a British Media outlet that has such a tenuous link with the truth that if they reported that Tuesday comes between Monday and Wednesday anyone with half a brain would wonder when that stopped being true.


Looks like the thread has transitioned to a bashing of crossdressers
No Chantal, this thread has always been about a few cross-dressers who hate Caitly Jenner for speaking up successfully about the plight of transsexuals. Then you obbject when some transsexuals take issue with what they are saying.

[emma5410]

So should a person that transitioned or is going thru the process of transitioning and chooses to live her life in stealth trades off the right of her input as well?
For the record I had participated in the thread previously and was not criticizing just pointing out where direction of the thread was leading to

Please tell me how you transition in stealth when you have to change your name, inform banks and utilities, tell everyone you know that you are transitioning. Do you think that work, family and friends do not notice.

[Marcelle]

Goodness,

You leave a page for a day and it just balloons. As someone who is not TS, I read through the posts and did a quick descriptive stats (sorry it is the nerdy social scientist in me) and found that an overwhelming percentage of the posters (CDers I might add) were supportive of Caitlyn's moment. This is mix of open CDers and closeted folks alike. Yes the OP had an opinion and many have chosen not to agree with it state their case in one way or another and I think we can all agree that Caitlyn is doing much for the Trans movement. Is she getting financial gain, notoriety and what not? Probably but she is a public figure and goodness public figures do like the lime light. However, I am sure she is doing from a place in her heart which wants to help others. I think someone here wrote "if she helps one person who is struggling she has done a service". Indeed if we all helped one person who is struggling, even just to accept who they are and move on with life irrespective of if they are CD or TS . . . what a boon that would be to the community writ large n'est pas? :)

I don't believe anyone is TS bashing or CD bashing to be honest. I think there are opinions being stated driven by emotional response. Opinions are opinions, but it is emotion which drives the debate.



... Thank you Suzanne for mentioning male privilege . . . There are plenty of people with male privilege who simply don't want to fight, and why would they, because being a cis-gender heterosexual white male comes with all the privileges you could ever have in this world - they have nothing to fight for.

Michelle,

I do love your posts and insights. However the generalization of the term "male privilege" from meaning that "men" statistically are better paid, hold more prestigious jobs, are less likely to be the victim of violent crimes to meaning that we are handed everything on a silver platter and have to work for nothing . . . is false. I worked darn hard to get where I am and sometimes I did not get what I wanted and had to work even harder. Nobody pronounced on my birth "Its a boy and here are the keys to the kingdom lad . . . coast along in life and all will be well". I still work darn hard and will probably do so to the day I shuffle off this mortal coil. So please, let's use the term correctly and not generalize that somehow being born white and male means I never have to work for anything or have no dog in the fight when it comes issues like this. :)


I don't think the situations are remotely comparable. Each requires a different sort of courage and each should be celebrated.

I bet plenty of war vets would not have the courage to do what transitioning people do and vice-versa.

Hi Dianne,

As someone who has done both I can attest the courage is different and in some ways coming out to those same people I shared blood with was harder than combat.

Cheers all

Isha

[Krististeph]

Caitlin has not gone too far, the media has pushed it too far. She is riding the wave of celebrity. Will it hurt the TG community? No. Yes, ther will be some negative outcome, backlash, etc. But Cait is not pushing the issue- the media is focusing on it since she was a (doubly) famous person. And not a bad person in general either, IMO.

Cait is bearing the brunt of a lot more attention than any of us would get, which has both good and bad points. As a celeb, she is vanguarding, not always an enjoyable position, but she is doing it well.

More power to her. Wish she'd stop by and give me a few pointers and such...

[Ashley D.]

As was always the case I agree with you 100% Melissa! The only way to make life better for all TS is for more of us to just say like it or not love me or hate me here I am and I'm HAPPY.

[msniki48]

Really,

I was not aware... as I only watched the clip... I did see Arthur Ashe on the screen behind her..did not realize it was for her Olympic years.

thank you..



She's not getting the award for TG, she's getting it for her Olympic years. It's really a shame when even the TG community doesn't educate themselves on what the award is actually for. Yes, she does deserve it.

Stephania,

thanks for the clarification. theESPY is excellence in sports performance yearly...given to for accomplishments that transcend sports. I believe it now makes sense to me...also I admire her courage

hugs

niki

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I made a strong comment to a specific person about their specific comments.

The support from the vast majority of CDs and people in general has been wonderful.

Here in my town one of the sportscasters made some terrible comments and he was vilified as well.

Anyone that watched the speech saw a humble person asking for nothing but respect.

[Krisi]

Looks like the thread has transitioned to a bashing of crossdressers

Exactly. And that's no better than ordinary people bashing transgendered people.

I have observed that many of the members here are just as bigoted as the people they complain about but bigoted in a different way. If you want respect and acceptance, you have to give respect and acceptance. I'm pretty surprised that some of these comments directed towards fellow members have been allowed to remain.

And remember, this is "crossdressers.com", not "transgender.com".

[wanagione]

I think that she has do a lot to bring transgender issues to the surface. I think it takes a great deal of courage to do what she has done in the public eye. Think how we feel when we get outed, harrassed, or made fun of; she had to do this on a national and world wide scale. Yes she has money,so what! I listened to her acceptance speech and she brought our issues to the world. I think people should know that we are being discriminated against, and that yes, we are even being murdered for who we are. I wish I had half her courage.

[Sara Jessica]

Here in my town one of the sportscasters made some terrible comments and he was vilified as well.

And likewise (Caitlyn's speech was all over talk radio yesterday), a nationally syndicated sports talk host (Colin Cowherd) was eloquent in his defense of everything about Caitlyn and TS in general, slamming a couple callers who tried to play the religion and impossible biology cards. The key to his being able to quash the haters was the question "what does someone being trans matter in your world?"

An internet troll can cough up a statement but there is no good means to challenge. Verbal sparring, all bets are off and Colin completely disarmed and diffused the entire notions presented by the haters. Good for him!

(And later in the day I read Cowherd is leaving ESPN...their loss indeed.)

[Dianne S]

So should a person that transitioned or is going thru the process of transitioning and chooses to live her life in stealth trades off the right of her input as well?

It's pretty evident that if you want to be a spokesperson for a community, you have to self-identify as part of that community, which precludes complete stealth.

And if you successfully go stealth, then you won't be perceived as trans and won't be directly affected by societal attitudes towards trans people. So yeah, such a person can have all the input he or she wants, but can't expect it to be taken as seriously as input from people who are out in front of the struggle.

[Krisi]

Isn't that the goal, to "successfully go stealth"? To be seen by society as a woman? To Live the life of a woman? To feel like a woman?

[Ilsa]

Here's what someone else has to say!

http://www.thewrap.com/transgender-trailblazer-renée-richards-talks-bruce-jenner-preference-for-transsexual-label/

[Stephanie47]

The members of this site range from plain vanilla cross dressers, like me, to post operative transsexuals. So, there is a lot of like minded individuals here. Has Caitlyn Jenner really done anything to promote acceptance the "cause," whatever that may be? My family and friends think she is nothing more than a media show. She does not represent transsexuals any more than any particular 65 year old woman represents all women. They point out she has the money to transform or sculpt herself into whatever Bruce thought he could become. Most of my friends and acquaintances don't consider her and the attention paid to her anymore than another blip on the otherwise dull world of sensational media. How can Caitlyn with all her money and status and hooked up with media stars really represent transsexuals?

Now I belong to a support group that has nothing to do with sexuality, cross dressing or otherwise. One of my friends has a grandson who is in high school and is suffering through the turmoil of identity crisis. To listen to the reports of him going through life trying to discover who he is, and, the loss of friends is terrible. The kid is in the real world, while everyone I know thinks Caitlyn is in the abstract world.

Yes, Caitlyn has brought attention to the issue. However, the real people I associate with thought more highly of the several recent news reports of kids, boys and girls, who are single digit kids trying to live their lives as they see themselves. And, of course how their parents deal with the issue.

Of course, Caitlyn does not represent a person like me, a plain vanilla cross dresser. A guy, who will remain a guy, who likes to wear women's clothing. All my friends truly recognize and accept transsexual men and women, although not really understanding how this occurs, but, still cannot understand cross dressing.

I'm just hoping Caitlyn does not have a reality television show.

[Mayo]

I'm just hoping Caitlyn does not have a reality television show.
She does now (http://ca.eonline.com/shows/i_am_cait).

Whether or not she is 'deserving' of this award is something I leave to other people to decide; I certainly would not deny that she (and anyone else who comes out as trans) needs to have a lot of courage to do so but, that said, she has a lot of privileges that many trans people don't and that will cushion many of the difficulties for her. Regardless, she is certainly generating positive conversations about trans issues, which is unequivocally a good thing. However, being rich and white means that she cannot (and should not) speak for those who do not share her privileges. I personally feel that Laverne Cox is probably a better spokesperson in general for the trans community in that she is more aware of issues related to privilege and intersectionality.

[Dianne S]

Isn't that the goal, to "successfully go stealth"? To be seen by society as a woman? To Live the life of a woman? To feel like a woman?

Stealth is not for everyone. I try to be seen by society as a woman, but I make no secret of my trans status. I don't go around broadcasting it to strangers, but all my friends, family and colleagues know, it's on my personal web site, and I write transgender advocacy articles for an online magazine.

My position is that I'm extremely lucky to have supportive family and friends and to live in very trans-tolerant place, which has made my transition incredibly easy to date. I owe it to others who have a much harder time to be out there and to be advocating for them.

[Barbara Jo]

So basically you are acknowledging that the rumour you are spreading against Caitlyn Jenner came from unreliable Internet gossip and was then picked up by a British Media outlet that has such a tenuous link with the truth that if they reported that Tuesday comes between Monday and Wednesday anyone with half a brain would wonder when that stopped being true.


No Chantal, this thread has always been about a few cross-dressers who hate Caitly Jenner for speaking up successfully about the plight of transsexuals. Then you obbject when some transsexuals take issue with what they are saying.

Are you not assuming it is false in spite of the numerous sites which are reporting it?.
As I said , I personally need more proof however, Cait has not really addressed it after all.
Assuming one is innocent without all the facts is just as bad as assuming they are guilty without all the facts, is it not?

Also, I do not I hate Cait as I have clearly stated things to the contrary.

[Megan G]

Are you not assuming it is false in spite of the numerous sites which are reporting it?.
.

Until it comes from a reputable, unbiased news source and not tabloid trash then absolutely I will consider it false...



I have observed that many of the members here are just as bigoted as the people they complain about but bigoted in a different way.

Bigoted? Really?? I would love to hear you elaborate on this....

[Dianne S]

And remember, this is "crossdressers.com", not "transgender.com".

Wow. You complain about factions within the community and then come up with that.

[Lorileah]

Isn't that the goal, to "successfully go stealth"?
no the goal is to be who you are, a woman in the world, no stealth, not pretending. That would imply we are hiding who we are in public. Although it will never be 100%, all we want is to be us. There are factors that don't let many of us do that. Caitlyn's factor is she is a public figure and she will be scrutinized for every little move or action. Even here where people are already questioning her. Trial with out jury.

Those of us who live the life know what she is going through in a small way. I don't see why people here are so critical. Let her actions prove or disprove her words.

[Lexi Moralas]

My feelings on this are bitter / sweet. Although caitlin Jenner's time in the media has fueled uncomfortable situations for me personally. I will say this , I don't think she has gone to far at all! It is great that we have this community and can all lean on one another for support . However I don't think she or any of us have a greater responibity to the cross dressing or TG community. We all have our own modivatons and goals in all aspects of our lives and our first respondibility is to ourselves. To me it seems like she is reaching for her own dreams ,to be the person she always wanted to be and what's wrong with that ? Can you imagine living all those years in that envoiorment.. Surrounded 24/7 by all those beautiful woman , and the fashion , make up , femininity and glamour that is wrapped up in the kardashian life style and not be able to get in on it. and pretend it didn't interest you. Hell it kills me to walk by Victoria secret or DSW and pretend I don't want everything in the window for myself. Lol
I don't really have an oppinion on the award but she has shown an unbelievable amount of courage.
For my own personal reasons I wish she would shut the hell up and go away.
But the fact is its her journey and she has the right do what is right for her. I wish her all the best. No matter how many times I have to say " no honey just because Jenner secretly wanted to transition dosnt mean that I do "

Ps . You have to admit she is gorgeous !

[Badtranny]

Isn't that the goal, to "successfully go stealth"? To be seen by society as a woman? To Live the life of a woman? To feel like a woman?

LOL

Yeah well, best laid plans and whatnot.

That would be a goal of mine if it was at all possible. You see, what people who keep secrets don't understand is that the coming out process never really ends. The first year of transition is all about coming out. Hell in that first year you come out by walking out the door. It's a rough year. Gradually it gets better (for some of us) and then you find yourself in these blissful little 'stealth' moments. Then your co-worker mis-genders you (accidentally) and boom you're right back 'out'.

Eventually if you're lucky you find a new job, and you're holding your breath because it seems like people don't 'know'. I feel a little bit weird about being in the closet again, but I guess it's better on this side right? It's been 3 years after all so maybe just maybe, I can leave my past behind. I never really thought it was possible but... oh crap, is that my old distribution rep? Jeez he's looking at me. Oh hey how ya doin? Yeah, I'm working here now, yeah, it's good to see you again. (as he's walking out the door with a group of my new colleagues) Well I guess that will be an interesting lunch.

No worries about keeping that secret now. Hello world I'm out again!

Before I transitioned, I had goals, and plans, and opinions, and feelings, ...and then I pulled the pin. Funny thing about a Tranny Grenade(tm), it tends to blow everything up.

For those of you who think that Ms Jenner is not qualified, or not worthy, or not authentic, I challenge you to pull that pin yourself. I'll betcha you get a new perspective.

[Lexi Moralas]

Well said

[Sarasometimes]

I think she is managing her public transition (she had no choice but to make it public) as best she can and for the most part most in the gender-variant community will benefit from her undertaking. As far as questioning why she got the Arthur Ashe award, you should at least look at who else has gotten it and then I think you will better understand why they, yes they selected her. Many recipients were first in some aspect other than just the sport they competed in. Billie Jean King, Cathy Freeman....
Could there be others equally worthy, undoubtedly yes but I can certainly see why she is worthy of it as well and I give ESPN some props for picking someone who may be more controversial than another.

[Dianne S]

Badtranny,

You are good! Nicely stated.

[AngelaYVR]

I think it's a poor show to have so much vitriole expressed here. It's this sort of thing that turns people off from wanting to visit the site. This Cd/Ts divide is staggeringly ludicrous and shameful.

[Eryn]

The perceived "CD/TS divide" is only due to the attitude of a very few individuals. The great majority of us, regardless of our position on the spectrum, are supportive of our entire community.

[Barbara Jo]

Also, if someone has an issue with any given TS or CD, it does not translate into them being against the whole TS or CD community.... or even against the person is question.
They might simply be discussing some side issue concerning an individual.



One should no more stereo type TSs or CDs any more than any other groups.
We can no more give anyone a free pass in everything any more than falsely accusing them of something
can we at least agree to these two things? :)

[stefan37]

Misty is absolutely correct. I am outed constantly by my employees. It's not intentional. But when people know you for many years of just comes out. I was at the supply house the other day. The owner I've known for 40 years. He introduced me to a customer at the counter. As we were talking he remarked, he's a good contractor. Oops outed again. Yeah the goal is live as stealth as possible. But as a late transitioner. It's impossible. Transition is a very public process. You can't escape that. I went to the enterologist to get pre surgery clearance. I hadn't been there in 6 years. I went there and told them my name and gender had been changed. The nurse thought that was awesome. The other nurse on the other side of the room said she should be in the computer. The first nurse whispered (there were others in the waiting room) Jenner.
The second nurse's eyes lit up. "Ohh ok". Another great example that there is no real stealth for us. And the impact Jenner has had. I didn't need to get into an entire explanation.

We all do what we have to live authentically. Jenner has advantages many of us would want. She also has issues being in the public eye most of us wouldn't want. I'm just glad I don't have to transition as publicly as Caitlyn.

[Tina_gm]

Caitlyn Jenner has decided that since she will not be able to just go be a woman in peace, to take it all head on and use her celebrity status as a tool for transgender awareness and education. For that, I commend her on, as it must be a very brave and difficult thing to do. For the most part, I think she is doing ok with it all as well. No one is perfect, she has and will make mistakes from time to time. In the end, the attention, the awareness, while some harm will come of it, there will be more good than harm that comes from it.

As for the ESPY's- I feel that this was not an award she should have gotten. There is already a lot of attention and spotlight to what she is doing. I feel that the others who were in consideration for the award should have gotten it. I personally do not feel it was the place to get such an award. I believe that unfortunately ESPN sold out for ratings with Jenner getting the award. Sometimes we need to give awards to the most deserving individual, which for the award that Jenner got, in the arena which she got it, should have gone to someone more deserving. Perhaps if there wasn't already so much media coverage of Caitlyn's transition I may feel different. I would have rather seen it given to someone who had not received any media recognition or the many accolades already given to Caitlyn on her public transition.

[NicoleScott]

To the OP question: No, I don't think Caitlyn has gone too far. But some here believe my opinion has no value because I'm a closeted crossdresser. Or maybe it has value but only because my opinion agrees with theirs.

To the ESPY Courage Award: It's not a contest, not a prize for the MOST courageous person of the year. It's not won, it's awarded - to a person ESPN chooses to honor for courage, and it always seems to have a strong connection to current events. I read the list of past recipients. Caitlyn's selection is appropriate, but at the worst, not inappropriate. Don't like it? Start your own Courage Award.

[drushin703]

I watched the ESPY'S this past Wednesday night and I must admit it, but I cant remember ever wanting to before. I watched the entire broadcast just to see Caitlyn, not Lebron or the lovely Ms Rousey and I wasn't disappointed. Her speech
was not only important but an important one to listen to. I didn't expect a side show, no exotic megavoltage Bond spree, no overblown falsetto- Lady Bunny improve, no camera close ups of her boobs or her hips or the spot where her
adams apple use to wiggle, and ABC was intelligent and respectful enough to oblige me. Just 5 years ago this could not have been done as tastefully as it was....

Did she go too far? Not in my eyes. In fact, she opened doors, lifted veils, broke open barriers and made life for all tg people, (which includes me) a life that is 99 percent hard as hell, a little easier..

[Tracii G]

All we can do is sit back and see what happens with CJ and all the trans press, bitching among ourselves isn't doing any good is it?

[SharonDenise]

I am proud of Caitlyn for what she has done for herself and for our community. I felt her speech was great! It wasn't just about her but about issues that the transgender community face. Her coming out did give me the courage to come out to one of my circle of friends. It turned out to be a positive moment. However, it would be nice to be able to afford her wardrobe, especially that Versace dress.

[Dianne S]

I felt her speech was great!

I'm happy and proud for Caitlyn, but to be honest I was slightly underwhelmed by her speech. I found Lana Wachowski's acceptance speech when she received the HRC Visibility Award much better and more entertaining. Warning: Long, and it takes a few minutes to get really good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crHHycz7T_c

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I liked Lana's speech alot as well..

Remember she is an artist and movie director...alot more talent that i think shines through

[MonctonGirl]

I'm beginning to believe that Caitlyn has taken her transition to the point of exploitation

She has been brainwashed to do so after years with Kris Kardashian
but this is how Caitlyn will pay the bills now.

Bruce was a professional motivational/keynote speaker
and knew that he'd lose those opportunities unless he "went big"
with this story. So it was probably just as much a business decision.

[sometimes_miss]

We need to stand up and be upfront with the world. Until we do, we will never be accepted. Caitlyn Jenner has done this, and I, for one, thank her for it.

^this. Most of my life has been laced with misery because of the gender problems swirling around in my head. Yes, I know that we need to make out presence more known to the rest of the world before we're accepted, but I just don't have the strength to go through the social ringer anymore. Caitlyn stands front and center for all of us and takes it. She knows how many people out there hate who and what she is, but has the strength of mind to deal with it. I wish I did. Not all of us are warriors.

I didn't understand all those people who think that she did this all for the publicity and self aggrandizement, until someone else reminded me that it's mostly OTHER people who would think about doing that type of thing are the ones most likely to accuse her of it.

For despite what anyone wants to believe, her coming out to the world has changed it substantially. Those who didn't know about transgenders now do; those who were misinformed are learning whether they like it or not (and lots of them will only learn while being dragged kicking and screaming with their hands covering their ears and eyes trying to deny we exist). Christine Jorgensen started it, but then disappeared from the news. Now we have Caitlyn, who's going to be in the media all the time. She is not one to just 'go away' quietly. I think that the fire that raged and made her the best all around athlete in the world 40 years ago is still burning hot, just with a different passion this time around.

I may not be on the front lines. But I know that I can make a difference in a different way. I will find and support a transgender safe house with what I can afford to donate, and contribute whatever I can.

[pamela7]

probably both perspectives are right:

everyone has an inner self-interest and an inner altruist, and I see both in action here. If you can't see his actions are helpful, then you have forgotten the maxim that "all publicity is good publicity". That he benefits from it - so what?

[AllieSF]

Pamela,

"his" actions?? Do you mean "her"?? Please clarify

[pamela7]

"her" indeed, not an intentional wording, but revealing the dangers of not thinking about political correctness before writing, especially here. Apologies to all offended.

[stefan37]

That slip up is exactly what those of us that transition experience on a daily basis with employees, customers, families and friends.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Yikes...Political correctness??????
Pretty incredible

that's not the right reason to call Caitlyn by her proper pronoun.....

[Badtranny]

Yikes...Political correctness?????? ..

LOL that was my first thought. Ooops gotta get the pronouns right or they'll be upset. Even someone who secretly dresses like a woman doesn't have any regard for the plight of the TranSitioner, but I guess that's the point isn't it.

The funny thing is that single post illustrates the divide between the dressers and the lifers better than anything I could have ever written.

They simply don't understand Kait. Their hobby aside, the idea that a transsexual is fundamentally NOT a man is just not registering. They truly believe that the only difference between them and us, is that we cross dress full time. Within that context it's absolutely forgivable that they think the pronouns are all about being polite.

I've said it before, there is clearly no spectrum with CD on one end and TS on the other. I'm open to an argument about a homosexual spectrum that works in the trans phenomenon, but nothing about my life is predicated on a desire for any particular underpants.

There have been a few veiled comments (perhaps the more direct ones were deleted) suggesting that the 'TS faction' was being divisive on this issue, but what we're really doing is just defending a sister in a forum where the need to do so was unexpected. It's interesting to me that the TS community is mostly of one mind across the social media landscape. There are certainly some trans detractors, but for the most part this is the first issue in the new millennium that hasn't split the trans community in half. Even the opportunist Molloy has come out on the right side of this, and that pretty much means that there really is no conflict to stir up. Everyone of any note is surrounding Ms Jenner and we are essentially taking quite a beating on FB, Twitter, etc. The volume of hate is overwhelming and I gotta say, it is more than a little bit frightening to realize how much of this country doesn't respect our lives, forget respecting the damn pronouns, they don't want us to exist at all.

It's pretty wild to write something to counter an awful comment on FB and then temporarily become the target of so much vitriol, and that's just a fraction of what Jenner is dealing with. I was a radio personality in my old town back in the '90s so I was a little too well known for me to deal with transitioning there. I moved because I didn't have the courage to explore anything there, and I wasn't really THAT well known. It was mostly in my head and frankly I was mostly forgotten. Even so, I moved to another part of the state so I could have some space. Ms Jenner does not have that luxury. There is no where in America where she could escape scrutiny. She tried having feminization procedures done in secret but the paps were hounding her every move. Look at Bruce's hair, look at Bruce's moobs, look at Bruce's nose, look at his adam's apple, etc etc.

What Jenner is doing is like transition on steroids. Yes she has money and time for procedures but she also is under a microscope that none of us can even begin to comprehend. Unlike some of the stuff I read here in our own TS forum, pretty much everything Caitlyn is saying about her transition rings very authentic to me. Most of it is uncomfortably familiar and she is undoubtedly walking the same horrifying path that so many of us here have walked. I can't recall one comment she's made regarding her transition that sounded like BS to me, and I think that's why the overwhelming majority of TS broads have her back. We really believe she is one of us.

She is not a perfect person or a perfect transgender spokesperson, but ...I think reasonable people know that there are no perfect people. Nobody's perfect at anything. Except Bruce Jenner on a certain day in 1976, when he ran, and jumped, and threw his way into the record books. We know today that he was actually running from Caitlyn, don't you think that maybe she has earned the right to finally stop running?

[kimdl93]

Caitlyn Jenner didn't create the media sideshow. After 39 years of varying degrees of notoriety, she could neither escape it, nor hide from it.

Is the media coverage tiresome? Only to the extent that it feeds of the inevitable and seemingly insatiable human appetite for salacious gossip. But to some extent, a little, factual and empathetic content slips through. Many people are learning. Many people are gaining new insights and, perhaps, a bit more capable of feeling a measure of empathy.

[Belle Cri]

Hi I'm very new here, so forgive me if I've covered existing ground, but...years ago I had a beautiful head of stunning red hair. It went the way of the world, alas. Then Bruce Willis came along. I get double taken sometimes for him since I'm bald. What a relief. I worship him. Now Kaitlyn Jenner has come along. What a relief. I now worship her as well. Let's face it, if I can look like her at 65 and pull it off in front the entire US and world media, I'm in. Good for her. I know, well I suppose everyone here does, what she has had to live through and it is horrible. Glad to see it, about time.

Belle

[pamela7]

its not so easy nor intentional Melissa, I have a F2M "daughter" who we use "he" for, because we have practiced. We know he is is he in a female body, and yet its not easy to remember as he-she's not had the op (yet).
With regard to Caitlyn, formerly Bruce, mentally we/I still have "Bruce" in our heads. We're not being intentionally rude, nor racist/transphobic, nor are we being inconsiderate, we are just conditioned for 50+ years and express a perception without thinking that we have to edit for pronouns for people we had first encountered in the other gender.

So perhaps the message here is to cut some slack on pronouns or delete all gender-referring ones. Only in English are pronouns possessive anyway, in spanish german french they follow the object, invariant. We've enough to worry about without over-reacting over a mistake.

[Belle Cri]

That was very aptly put. Please feel free to correct my grammar or usage - I know all too well what an inadvertent slipped word or concept can do to a discussion, and it is almost always never intentional in my experience, just simple cultural ineptness or unfamiliarity. So in that spirit, educate away - I'm quite interested in developing usage norms actually because, as in my case, it is a process of self definition and ownership, i.e., self worth, and that is always a key

[Shelly Preston]

Having seen all the comments so far I thought I would add this in response to the original question


A Soldier Who Got Tired Of Reading That Caitlyn Jenner Isn’t A Hero Wrote An Amazing Response

“What if I told you that her speech last night saved even one human being from attempting to take their life.”

[Tina_gm]

I am going to agree with Pamela on this. I do not feel compelled not to call Caitlin Bruce, or refer as he instead of she. By all means I am always for referring to anyone who wishes to be called and considered what they wish to be. 40 years of He and Bruce does not get erased easily, no matter who we are, even us. One would hope that even those who are going through transition after so many years as the wrong sex should be able to at least forgive us who always knew them or thought of them as their prior name and gender.

[emma5410]

its not so easy nor intentional Melissa, I have a F2M "daughter" who we use "he" for, because we have practiced. We know he is is he in a female body, and yet its not easy to remember as he-she's not had the op (yet).

I do not see what the use of the correct pronouns has to do with whether he (not he-she) has had the op or not.


With regard to Caitlyn, formerly Bruce, mentally we/I still have "Bruce" in our heads. We're not being intentionally rude, nor racist/transphobic, nor are we being inconsiderate, we are just conditioned for 50+ years and express a perception without thinking that we have to edit for pronouns for people we had first encountered in the other gender.


It is rude and inconsiderate not to refer to a transsexual by their proper gender. People make mistakes and all transsexuals get misgendered. We accept that but in the current context of this thread, and all the attention currently on Caitlyn, it is astounding that you can mis-gender her.


Only in English are pronouns possessive anyway, in spanish german french they follow the object, invariant.
We are communicating (or not) in English.

[Tina_gm]

I really do not find how it is astounding when thinking of someone who I have seen for 40 years on tv, and not sometimes refer to that person as they were. Wasn't it just a few months ago CJ was admitting to be TG, and was doing so presenting as male, and still being called Bruce? People who we have known or known of for 40 years and they make a sudden announcement that they are TG and wish to be called by a female name, changing to "her" and their preferred name does not just happen like a light switch. I do try to refer to CJ by the name she wishes and her preferred gender pronoun. But seriously, 40 years of being BJ and he, and just a few months of CJ and she, and if we don't get it right its horrible?

[emma5410]

All you have to do is read your post before you submit it and check the pronouns. Is that so difficult?

[Lorileah]

and yet MISS Sally Smith becoming MISSUS Bob Jones doesn't trip people up :idontknow: But that wasn't the OP was it?

[grace7777]

I have discovered that I am a lot more than a CD, now as to being TS, this is what I need to sort out, and being out en femme in public a lot, I have become very sensitive to misgendering. For me to present as a woman and be misgendered is not very pleasant. So I make sure that I do not misgender others. Now being referred to as ma'am or miss makes me feel good.

To misgender someone by mistake is something I can understand. After all none of us is perfect. To do it deliberately or to not make an effort to gender someone correctly is just plain wrong. Sadly it seems some people even on this forum do not care about misgendering someone.

[Marcelle]

. . . Their hobby aside, the idea that a transsexual is fundamentally NOT a man is just not registering. They truly believe that the only difference between them and us, is that we cross dress full time. Within that context it's absolutely forgivable that they think the pronouns are all about being polite.

I've said it before, there is clearly no spectrum with CD on one end and TS on the other.

Melissa,

I enjoy your posts and your insights as I do many others here but I have to admit that the use of your term "hobby" is disconcerting. You have lashed out at the CD community writ large for not understanding the TS community and what it means to you be a woman. Granted, I am fully cognizant that some who water here do make that mistake but then again to assume that this is a hobby would imply that one can merely go their merry way at the drop of the hat should it not suit their fancy. As much as many a CDer may wish to proclaim that is it is only about the clothes, I would suspect that a certain modicum "gender dysphoria" is at play since very few if any can truly quit this "hobby". So your comments IMO indicate a lack of understanding on what it means to some of us be stranded along this spectrum.

As for the spectrum, how do you explain people like me. On some days I identify as a woman and on others I identify as a man. Now, you might think "impossible, you are one or the other", but then again it wasn't long ago when people thought it was impossible to believe you were a gender opposite to your sex birth. I am quite public and to some degree have given up everything to be "who I am" and that includes going public in my work place. So while not TS, I do not consider myself "just a dresser".

Respect goes both ways.

Isha.

[Jazzy Jaz]

Its interesting that when a few cds misgender someone or a few haters criticize CJ then suddenly we as a group are stereotyped as simply not understanding and that we as a group all feel the way that those FEW do. As a cd I dont misgender people who are ts, I fully understand that CJ is completely a woman and wether or not we knew it she always was, and I definately recognize the courage it must take for her to come out and transition before the world and the awareness that she is bringing to our community. Just sayin.

[Tina_gm]

Grace, some will do it deliberately because they do not feel that someone who is TG is ever anything but what they are born as. Even after GRS, they still will feel they are not another gender. Others may do it just to do it. When it comes to almost everyone on this forum, any misgendering is not due to any of us not caring. Just as with CJ, for those who initially signed up and were CDers, and identified as male, then later on identified as female, for any of us to use the wrong pronoun, especially in the beginning shouldn't be the end all of travesties. I am sure it hurts those who we misgender, but really, for a very long time, they misgendered themselves too. I am not saying it should ever be a pass to keep doing it, but I think those who are identifying themselves differently need to give some leeway to others about it all.

[emma5410]

I am sure it hurts those who we misgender, but really, for a very long time, they misgendered themselves too.

It is okay for you to do it because they have struggled with it and suppressed it all their lives.


I am not saying it should ever be a pass to keep doing it, but I think those who are identifying themselves differently need to give some leeway to others about it all.
So you are saying it should not be a pass but should be a pass.
All it takes is to read what you have written before you post.

[pamela7]

that's right Emma, I did not even think nor realise to gender-edit my post. my error. all i can do it try to be sure i don't repeat the error, by gender-checking all my posts hereafter.
i'm not going to take any s**t thought for what it was.

[TerriM]

Catilyn has effected my life in a positive way. Since her coming out my wife of 44 yrs and I have had more discussions in the last month of my being TG then we have had in our whole marriage.
Terri

[Sara Jessica]

Grace, some will do it deliberately because they do not feel that someone who is TG is ever anything but what they are born as.

Exactly. This is where the haters in various "comments" sections think they are being really clever. "Oooh, look...I called Caitlyn "he", ain't I just hilarious". Fact of the matter is that there is a more insensitive term out there used by the idiots who amp up their so-called cleverness by referring to anyone TS as "it".

These uses of words both minimizes the trans condition and in the case of the latter one, utterly dehumanizes the individual.


Its interesting that when a few cds misgender someone or a few haters criticize CJ then suddenly we as a group are stereotyped as simply not understanding and that we as a group all feel the way that those FEW do.

It is because if anyone should know better, it's anyone participating in these pages.

Besides, as has been said before, we have the ability to proofread our words here which takes away the excuse of "not having a filter" when using our words in speech.


Respect goes both ways.

Indeed it does.

Keep in mind that most of us recognize the (unwritten?) rule that says to gender the person in accordance with their presentation, whether dealing with one who is TS (duh!), CD or anywhere in between. Yet on the M2F CD side of the fence, there are some who do not wanted to be addressed as she or her. I think these individuals are in the minority and I will always be cautious by gendering the person in accordance with their appearance. I have yet to be corrected. This is both common sense and playing the odds which are heavily in your favor if you gender the person on their appearance.

Reminds me of those times when I get "sir'ed" when presenting as a female. it's like, "what part of my appearance makes you think sir in any way, shape or form???"

Oh, don't even answer that!!! ;)

[JayeLefaye]

Just chiming in as a response to the original question.

No, I don't believe that she has gone too far. I do, however, believe that a lot of us haven't gone far enough, and I'm not talking how far from the closet we wander. Sometimes, it's NOT just about the clothes. It's about things that we can't see. For us plain ol' CDers, we can put on as many frillies as we like, but that doesn't change what we are inside. Apparently we can still be judgemental, overly-critical, intolerant, etc....I've said this once before, and I'll try not to repeat it over and over, but just because I wear a skirt, that doesn't give me the right to act like a b!tch.

In regards to Ms. Jenner, and the public aspect of it, it seems to be a case of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"...Criminy!!!! Please walk a mile in her heels before you decide not to cut her any slack.

In regards to The Espy's...Yes, they were created by a "Sports" Network, but each award has its own designation. The Arthur Ashe Award is NOT based on sports performances, current or past. It is based on "Courage". And yes, there are many deserving nominees, but as in any "award", there can only be one winner. I won't dignify the rumor mills as too why/how Ms. Jenner won. Nor do I care about ESPN's motivations. "Maybe we all deserve an Espy"???? Only if they come in different sizes so that we can see just how brave we are in our struggles in comparison to others. I mean, size matters, right?(how do I find the sarcasm emoticon thingy?)...I, myself, would be appalled if anyone were to think that what I go through in my day to day life is ANYTHING like what Ms. Jenner, and the TS' here go through on a moment-by-moment basis!

All I really care about is being able to see one person, being seen by millions of people, standing tall and speaking eloquently, honestly and sincerely, and in the process, actually making a real difference in the real world...Not the "real" world of the K's Clan, but in the real world of the young girl/boy and their families/friends watching, listening and hopefully gaining a touch of understanding regarding an issue that previously, to them, was not acknowledged, for whatever reasons.

Is Ms. Jenner the first ever? No. Is she the best ever? No. Does she deserve to be judged against those who came before? No.

I have to hit "Post" now, else I'll go off on a rant.

Love to her, and all!

Jaye

[Lorileah]

STOP! NOW!. Go back to the OP. Answer the question asked. Pronouns aside....got it?

[Jazzy Jaz]

I agree that people participating in these pages should generally know better. That still doesnt justify incorrectly characterizing all cds as not having filters because of the things that a few cds have said. If there are issues with what a few have said then it should be directed at those few individuals, its anti stereotyping 101.

[Lorileah]

Am I not typing in English here (Or Coloradoan)? One more and it's closed. Get back to the OP....get it?...got it? good

[Badtranny]

Melissa,

I enjoy your posts and your insights as I do many others here but I have to admit that the use of your term "hobby" is disconcerting.

I apologize for the offense, but I'm sure you realize that it isn't my word. I only used it, because I've seen so many who identify as CD use it before me. Believe me if I was using that word in a deliberate attempt to be snarky I would admit it. I like to think I'm more subtle than that. At least I like to think it.



As for the spectrum, how do you explain people like me. On some days I identify as a woman and on others I identify as a man. Now, you might think "impossible, you are one or the other", but then again it wasn't long ago when people thought it was impossible to believe you were a gender opposite to your sex birth. I am quite public and to some degree have given up everything to be "who I am" and that includes going public in my work place. So while not TS, I do not consider myself "just a dresser".


I explain you the same I would explain Allie, or Debbie, or Melissa, all people I know personally and respect. They are not transitioning as far as I know, but they have a wonderful feminine energy and are just generally great people.

Contrary to popular belief, I do not dislike CD's. My enmity is and has always been reserved for people who don't have any skin in the game, yet prattle on about things they know nothing about. As far as I know, half the people here should be considering transition. How the hell would I know otherwise? I don't even really care one way or the other who is "real". My comments are NOT about who is real, they're about who is transitioning. At the end of the day, the science/medicine doesn't matter any more and it's all about who has the seeds to be honest with the world about who they are.

If you walk out into the world as whoever you are and you aren't taking pains to keep secrets, then you have basically pushed in all your chips. That takes courage, I don't care if you're a TS or a CD or a gender queer, people who aren't even at the table don't have any right to judge the way you do your thing.

[Tina_gm]

ok, back on track :) There are rumors going around that ABC/ESPN was throwing the Arthur Ashe award in as part of the deal as to getting "the interview" That tends to go way past CJ's lifelong character though, but who really knows.... I still believe that the award was given for ratings purposes more than any other reason, and that is not a noble reason. As to CJ, no, I do not feel she is going too far. She was transitioning in private, and was quickly losing control of her life with the ever hounding paparazzi. So, since there would be no such thing as a private transition, then get out in front and control her life and message that she wishes to convey. She does have the opportunity to educate the public. Making money while she is doing it? Yep, but hardly the 1st to be guilty of that, and it is not a crime anyway.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Ilsa, Only time will tell.:daydreaming:

[LexiNexi]

S/he's only in it for the buck's. Sad

[Jazzy Jaz]

She!!!!!!

[Dianne S]

S/he's only in it for the buck's. Sad

Yes, right. Because an incredibly wealthy Olympic athlete would undergo years of hormone therapy, electrolysis, incredibly painful FFS and risk been insulted and ridiculed, all for a few bucks.

I don't understand that hate-on some people have for Jenner. If she were some unknown transwoman who transitioned, everyone here would be saying "good for her". But because she's famous, people feel entitled to hurl bitchy comments her way.

[Sara Jessica]

S/he's only in it for the buck's. Sad

Using your sad theory, I can just see the boardroom discussion...

Hey Bruce, come on in. Now that you are separated from the queen bee of the K clan, you know your income stream will dry up completely. No one will give a hoot about you any longer. But check this out, we have an idea. Don't say no right away, just roll with it and you'll see the upside. We're thinking of starting a new reality show where an olympic athlete who everyone sees as the epitome of masculinity transitions into a woman.

Yes, we're serious. You are in your mid-sixties and this will help to ensure you maintain the lifestyle you are accustomed to. Think it through. You would go on female hormones that will have tremendous effects on your body as well as your mind.

What? You're correct, THAT will not function any longer. But you're divorced and old, you won't be needing to use it any longer.

We will put you in touch with the best surgeons to feminize your face and enhance your chest.

Yes, we mean breasts.

I know you've probably never worn a dress before in your life but you'll get used to it. I hear high heels take practice but you have proven to be up to physical challenges that are much greater.

You will then live out the rest of your life as a female and your new show will segue off of the heartache your family experiences as they come to grips with your decision to become a woman.

This will be huge, a ratings winner as well as a winner for your bank account. The internet will buzz with your every step. The paparazzi will go nuts.

Huh? No, that wasn't a Freudian slip. Those'll eventually go too.

Your motivations will be questioned by the trans community. Message board sites will debate your motivations. Whether you represent well. Whether you are going to far. Heck, we can even arrange for you to get an ESPY of your very own.

Whaddya think? We have the contracts all ready to go.

Are there enough absurdities present? Makes any notion to suggest this is simply a money grab pretty darned absurd, huh???

[NicoleScott]

I don't think Jenner is in it for the bucks, but how does expressing an opinion that she is qualify as hate speech?

[JayeLefaye]

If it was an opinion, it would start with "I think"...But it is stated as a fact and followed by a one word editorial...All of which seems sad to me.

Jaye

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sad and par for the course.. its calling Caitlyn he or he/she that is hurtful at best and hateful at worst .... sorry Nicole but i'm surprised and disappointed that you wouldn't see that...

one thing people don't seem to get is that poor and underprivileged people do not have the podium...there is no way to get to the podium ...
this is true frankly for all things in life...life is inherently unfair and uncaring...what happens happens..

Caitlyn has made the podium bigger. People that yesterday had no chance may have a chance now...people that were working on their gender have a better chance...That's good for everyone..

its naive and not constructive to say things like she went too far or she doesn't represent me because i'm cd/poor/racially different...etc...i've heard it all on tv and on blogs...its just pathetic the jealousy...

[sometimes_miss]

Are there enough absurdities present? Makes any notion to suggest this is simply a money grab pretty darned absurd, huh???
You'd be amazed at the absurd things that a huge percentage of the population believes. All because it 'fits' their concept of how the world should be.

[Princess Chantal]

Hmmm this quite interesting. http://mytoba.ca/voices/caitlyn-jenner-is-so-jealous-of-me-that-she-stole-my-acceptance-speech/
It is from a transperson that used to write for the local newspaper that claims that Jenner stole her speech.

Btw, if Caitlyn did actually steal it..... I believe that she cleaned it up for the better

[stefan37]

What is sad if that there are members on this site that do not get individuals identifying as women. Caitlyn has come out and unequivocally said. "I am transitioning". It can not be said any clearer.
Bruce trained hard and was at the top of his game winning a gold medal. I have no doubt much of that energy was an outlet to help cope with his inner struggle. He was an inspiration for many to work hard to achieve their goals. Many athletes today became who they are because of him. Now Caitlyn. She will be an inspiration to many that are struggling with their identity. I have no doubt her public journey will be an inspiration for those individuals to start living their lives authentically.

It would be interesting to see how many that are speaking disparagingly would handle such a public transition. Personal losses aside. My transition has been realitivly smooth. Many are not as fortunate. I have many friends that have had very difficult transitions. Physical violence. Estrangement from family and friends. Los of employment. All to live there lives authentically as who they are.

There is no play book for transition. Caitlyn will transaction in a manner she feels is right for her. Just as Kaitlyn,Badtranny, Anne and many others and in life transition in their own way. There are other members here that are not transitioning at this time. But are living their lives open and authentically as gender fluid.
Those of you casting stones. Start living your life authentically and see how you deal with the crap we endure on our journey. It's easy to hang in the dark and snipe.

[Stephanie47]

I checked to see what the viewership was for Caitlyn's appearance on ABC/ESPN. It was an estimated 10 million. That's a sizable viewership. As someone pointed out to my first post, she has a program airing July 26th. I really do not know the breakdown of the viewership. Were people watching out of curiosity? How did they view her presentation? And, what will her show be about? How will she and the producers handle the underlying issues of transsexuals? What will the ratings be? I think everyone will agree that Caitlyn will be hounded by the media every time she leaves her home. I think her impact on acceptance or non acceptance of transsexuals will be gauged on how the ordinary folks view and accept the ordinary transsexual living next door.

[NicoleScott]

Go back and take a look at all the posts about Caitlyn here and in the Media section, and you'll see many wrong pronouns. Look at who posted them and tell me all of them are haters, and are because they used the wrong pronouns. You see that as hate speech because and only when you want to.

[emma5410]

Hmmm this quite interesting. http://mytoba.ca/voices/caitlyn-jenner-is-so-jealous-of-me-that-she-stole-my-acceptance-speech/
It is from a transperson that used to write for the local newspaper that claims that Jenner stole her speech.

Btw, if Caitlyn did actually steal it..... I believe that she cleaned it up for the better

Just checking but you do realise that this is written as a joke.


o back and take a look at all the posts about Caitlyn here and in the Media section, and you'll see many wrong pronouns. Look at who posted them and tell me all of them are haters, and are because they used the wrong pronouns. You see that as hate speech because and only when you want to.

No one said that all the examples of the wrong pronouns are written by haters. Look at them and tell me that none of them are haters. You do not see hate speech because you do not want to

[Princess Chantal]

Yes I knew that, it is just a sample joke of what Patti thinks of Jenner as a representation of the tg community. I am sure that the countless number of transpersons that have been recognized for their contributions had similiar speeches. Here is Patti's wordpress opinion of Jenner https://pattidawnswansson.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/caitlyn-jenner-the-best-transgender-woman-that-money-can-buy/

[stefan37]

I certainly never said they were haters. I was illustrating what those of us go through on a daily basis. Just as Caitlyn is also. Whether it's naivety, disrespectful, intentional I couldn't say.
You can meet strangers and be gendered female and as soon as they find out your Trans. The game changes and you are then gendered male. It happens often enough to be an issue. Hopefully enough will be made of the issue by the media to change attitudes. I doubt that it will happen in my lifetime. And to those that do misgender cue whatever reason. Yeah your right it's no big deal. We should just "man up and endure it".

[Tamara Croft]

And this thread is done! I'm not amused in the slightest at the attitudes and opinions in this thread. Let me just remind that person who said this is 'crossdressers.com' and not 'transgender.com'.... that is RUDE!! The site has evolved, yes it was created for CD's, however it isn't anymore, it's just a 'domain name'... so anymore of your attitude to who should be here and you can bugger off to 'banned.com'..

The thread was 'has jenner gone too far?' turned into 'have the members gone too far?'... grow up!!

THREAD CLOSED!!!