The tug of war

[sarahcsc]

Hi everybody,

Awhile ago I started a thread based on a thought experiment regarding a premise; the premise was that in the future, when surgeons are able to either alter our crossgender desires and identities through psychosurgery, or alter our bodies through safe, effective and affordable SRS; would one chose any of these options or leave their brains and bodies intact while continuing to endure being displaced by society.

The reason for this experiment was to gauge what people's attitudes are around social control and personal freedom. Psychosurgery can be argued as a selfless act where one decides to 'kill' a part of themselves in order to conform. SRS on the other hand can be deemed a selfish act of defiance against societal norms.

However, there is no guarantee that the discrimination would stop despite psychosurgery or SRS.

The overwhelming response was to 'to leave things unchanged' although there were some who preferred psychosurgery or SRS.

Here is the link : http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?229357-To-change-your-brain-or-your-body/page2

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My little thought experiment reminded me that we are in a constant battle with society; like in a perpetual tug of war. No one was willing to give in hence the tug continue. On one side, society is pulling us into submission and conformity, while on the other, we are battling for our acceptance.

GID (edited), like many other "mental illness", can only exist within a social context. As the philosopher George Berkerly said "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around, does it still make a noise?". In other words, if a man puts on a dress on an island with no one around, is he still crazy?

I do not believe gender identity disorder is a 'disorder' in a true sense the way cancer or heart failure is, but it is rather a social construct. Hence, to relieve ourselves of suffering, we need to cut out the social element of it (as much as we feasibly can).

The tug of war, I found, to be a perfect analogy to described our struggle. They, pulling us into conformity, and us, pulling them into accepting us.

Many of us have lost in this tug of war and ended up being pulled into the ground, battered, bruised, and humiliated. Perhaps it is possible, with enough time and support, that we can win this tug and convince society that we have the right to be who we are. But we would still end up on this side and they on the other. We will essentially still be divided.

But what if we chose not to engage in this tug? What if we chose let go of the rope and just stood there? You'd find that society can't pull us into the ground, and they would not be able to hurt us. Of course, the divide continues to exist, but at least nobody gets hurt.

We put too much emphasis on social repercussions that it becomes utterly paralyzing. For example, I sometimes fear that I'm too gender dysphoric for this society to accept, but not dysphoric enough for the transcommunity to accept. :( Its a no-win situation.

Although I understand and acknowledge the importance of acceptance among friends, family, and wider society, it is nonetheless an unrealistic thing to wish for. It took me about 20 years to accept myself, I don't expect others to do so overnight.

At the end of the day, we can only live the best we can, with the love and respect we give ourselves, and hopefully by doing that, we can convince others that we too deserve to be loved and respected. The temptation is to expect others to make us feel good which is when we fall into the trap of tugging on the rope again.

We have never won in this tug of war, and we never will.

Hmm...

Love,
S

[kimdl93]

A lot to digest there. My feeling is that, with conspicuous individuals as exceptions, 'society' is far more tolerant, even accepting than we imagine. The tug of war is more internal than real. The real conflict is between individuals in relationships...there the pressures are to confirm, maintain the status quo, maintain the relationship itself. And the ability of individuals to accept this variant behavior ranges so widely...from absolute rejection to embrace. No wonder it's frightening.

In other words, I care not what 'society' thinks, but I do care about how my actions, choices and in effect my identity are received by those close to me.

[LeaP]

Your scenario is similar to asking whether one would prefer to be cisgender. Well, I would prefer to have been, but not to become.

It seems to me that those who transition have, in fact, let go of the rope.

[Amy Fakley]

Indeed ... what Lea said ... if there was a "cure" that could fix my brain so that it didn't feel so out of place in this body, god ... I don't know ... if it existed when I was a child, I'm certain my parents would have gotten me "fixed". If it happened early enough in my life, it might not have been so bad. I wouldn't have had to live the last 40 years like this ... but I did ... and for better or worse, that's who I am now, and if such a thing we're to exist I wouldn't want it today because it really would be killing a huge part of my identity.

[Starling]

...I do not believe gender identity disorder is a 'disorder' in a true sense the way cancer or heart failure is, but it is rather a social construct. Hence, to relieve ourselves of suffering, we need to cut out the social element of it (as much as we feasibly can)...

...I sometimes fear that I'm too gender dysphoric for this society to accept, but not dysphoric enough for the transcommunity to accept...

Hmm...

"Hmm," is right. First off, the concept of Gender Identity Disorder is officially defunct, as of the latest DSM; so the battle there has been won, at least on paper. And Gender Dysphoria, as I understand, is considered a fully curable medical condition, and not a neurosis or psychosis. As for being "too dysphoric" or "not dysphoric enough," that seems to be more of a subjective construct than a social one. And I'm afraid I don't understand how one can "let go of the rope" without withdrawing completely from society. Society is a rope that links people together, and if you let go, you fall away. Metaphors can be dangerous.

I think you are overindulging in abstracts and hypotheticals, too close to the weekend.

:) Lallie

[sarahcsc]

A lot to digest there. My feeling is that, with conspicuous individuals as exceptions, 'society' is far more tolerant, even accepting than we imagine. The tug of war is more internal than real. The real conflict is between individuals in relationships...there the pressures are to confirm, maintain the status quo, maintain the relationship itself. And the ability of individuals to accept this variant behavior ranges so widely...from absolute rejection to embrace. No wonder it's frightening.

In other words, I care not what 'society' thinks, but I do care about how my actions, choices and in effect my identity are received by those close to me.

Hi Kim,

I think you're right that society in general could be more tolerant and accepting, but only because they have no vested interest in us. Yes, perhaps wider society do not oppose us, but neither do they stick their necks out for us too. You can interpret this as them being accepting and tolerant, but you may also interpret this as they simply 'don't know or don't care'.

The ones who care... are the ones who oppose us. Like you said, the real conflict in between individuals in relationships.

If you extrapolate this to wider society, and imagine if more people out there has a gender dysphoric spouse/child/parent, would society still be accepting of us? Or would they start demanding something very different?

I don't care much what 'society' thinks as well but that is also because I have little vested interest in them. :)


"Hmm," is right. First off, the concept of Gender Identity Disorder is officially defunct, as of the latest DSM; so the battle there has been won, at least on paper. And Gender Dysphoria, as I understand, is considered a fully curable medical condition, and not a neurosis or psychosis. As for being "too dysphoric" or "not dysphoric enough," that seems to be more of a subjective construct than a social one. And I'm afraid I don't understand how one can "let go of the rope" without withdrawing completely from society. Society is a rope that links people together, and if you let go, you fall away. Metaphors can be dangerous.

I think you are overindulging in abstracts and hypotheticals, too close to the weekend.

:) Lallie

You are right Lallie, I am overindulging in abstracts. Maybe its the weekend, but please allow me to. :)

You are also right that the term "gender identity disorder" has officially been replaced by "gender dysphoria" in DSM-5, but I was saying that to prove a point that GID itself is a social construct hence defunct to begin with. In other words, I am agreeing with the DSM-5 panel of doctors but I disagree the 'battle is won', in fact, it has only begun.

It has only begun because we as a group of individuals are so poorly studied and understood that the textbook definition of gender dysphoria probably only applies to a small proportion of us. I'm not asking that we be pathologised and be written up in a textbook of psychiatric disorders, but as long as we as a group of gender fluid individuals are not explained and understood, there will be ongoing confusion and stigma.

The dilemma is less severe for pure gender dysphorics who fit the textbook definition because they are well studied and can be prescribed treatment which have been proven to be effective.

The real dilemma affects people like me, who fall somewhere along the gender spectrum, who meet some but not all the criteria of gender dysphoria, who are neither accepted by the research community nor wider society. All because I am 'not dysphoric enough' for researchers, but 'too dysphoric' for society.

Remember, there is nothing wrong with describing and labeling gender dysphoria, but when one does that, they are also describing and labeling what isn't. That is an implicit understanding. I think gender dysphoria belongs in a textbook of 'neurological disorders' rather than a textbook of 'psychiatric disorders' because neurological disorders are much easier to conceptualize.

As to my fears of being "too dysphoric" or "not dysphoric enough", it just goes back to the problem of how one defines 'gender dysphoria'. The fear, a subjective construct as it may seem, comes from the a real ambiguity around how we decide who is gender dysphoric and who ISN'T, hence it is related to a social construct as well. I defer to my statements above for more clarification.

And finally, one can have many interpretations of what "letting go of the rope" means. I agree that we cannot cut ourselves completely from wider society.

In my mind, tugging on the rope represents an unrealistic expectation for society to accept us. Letting go of it, doesn't mean we stop engaging with society altogether, but we start treating ourselves with dignity, we stop expecting others to make us feel good, and we start establishing more realistic expectations of what society can offer.

I don't think we will be completely accepted without a single trace of lingering confusion and stigma. Either ways, society will have to live with us, but what ultimately matters is how we live with ourselves.

Love,
S

[Starling]

Sarah, I think GD is treated as a psychological disorder because it is primarily an emotional response to a neurophysiological reality. And it's impossible to separate the two, because one arises from the other, and in a different way from purely psychological trauma. Furthermore, its treatment is primarily a medical one, although it usually includes counseling as well. Of course, the exact physical mechanism has not yet been identified. The current state of the art is the untimely hormone bath in the womb hypothesis, but to my mind it does not tell the whole story.

For instance, this hypothesis places the agency solely on the mother's intrauterine events, but I'm pretty sure my father also suffered from GD. This suggests to me an hereditary element as well, as there are too few transgender folk for this to have been strictly coincidental. Or perhaps my interpretation of my father's behavior--most of it coming to me retrospectively after his death--is erroneous. I do know that he often embarrassed me with his mannerisms, and I therefore worked extra hard to try and suppress any femininity in my own behavior. But it's mostly a feeling that he could see right into me and sense my gender difficulty.

Perhaps, of course, if there actually is an hereditary element it need not always be expressed as GD in the father, for he may just be a carrier. And with the exception of what we know about completely testosterone-resistant XY males who look entirely female, I don't know of any studies that might suggest that varying degrees of t-resistance/susceptibility in the child might actually account for the brain's failure to masculinize in the womb. After all, it has long been established that the father's genetic contribution, rather than the mother's, determines the sex of the child.

This guess of mine obviously does not apply to FTM transgenderism. We like to think of transgenderism both ways being expressions of the same mechanism, but that doesn't mean it is so. But we still know so little that speculation of this sort has only entertainment value, for the time being. And I'll probably hate myself in the morning.

:) Lallie

[Kate T]

Is "letting go of the rope" then not just allowing society to decide what is right and wrong?

Love, acceptance, respect. These are ropes worth tugging not because we can realistically expect society to achieve them, but because they are the right thing to do.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Very interesting thought Sarah.... tug of war with society.....

Some people like to fight with society...most don't ... i sure didn't..

so my transition as a necessity (for me) included ffs which allows me to pass... i don't have to fight... and if i do , its on my own terms with the huge benefit of looking female


the analogy of letting go of the rope is true for me... i transitioned quietly , i left my corporate job because i was burned out and didn't feel the energy in me to tell 90,000 people i was transitioning.
we all have a list of those choices...
we are all at different points in our dysphoria

one thing sarah that may interest you is that dysphoria seems to be only mitigated by female expression, another is that untreated it always gets worse and reaches the natural point of suffering based on your identity.
so your concern about enough dysphoria is really unfounded, it is what it is... and for what its worth, one of my huge stumbling blocks was feeling that i couldn't possibly be transsexual like those "true" or "real" transsexuals... my dressing was so ingrained i couldn't get around it..

however, my SUFFERING took over and made all other concerns meaningless...literally... i proceeded despite all fear, cost and uncertainty... you are not at that point...you are however (based on your posts) trying to mitigate suffering and like many transsexuals have other issues that block progress....maybe you can step back and evaluate your situation only in terms of progress you've made against GD, and try to look ahead and really get granular about whether you really really think its not going to get worse...

i can only say this in hindsight...i'm glad my GD exploded...it informed me and comforted me at the same time it terrified and crushed me...my transition was carefully planned and executed but it felt like autopilot...my nature is to plan and execute ... i defaulted to it.... it seems sarah your nature is to contemplate and jump in the rabbit hole of unknowable things... i was there too but my desperation and nature got me out..

i hope you can make progress and feel better and better until you find your natural place

[Mayo]

Interesting question.

I'm an essentialist, at least to some degree, so I'm personally of the opinion that many human traits are at least partially 'hardwired', either by genetics or by the intrauterine environment (esp. circulating hormones) or early childhood experiences. I believe that there are some slight biological differences in temperament, skills and cognitive function between the sexes, though IMO these aren't significant enough in the grand scheme of things to justify excluding anyone from specific occupations or otherwise subject people to discrimination. As a result, I don't agree that gender identity is purely a social construct. Human behaviour (in this context, things like sexual orientation & gender identity) is very much multifactorial, having many different causal inputs. So, while our genes may establish a predisposition, other things can sometimes override those default settings either partially or completely, depending on the strength of the relevant influences.

We are genetically set up to be either male or female - the binary is the 'ideal' in the sense that we are typically programmed for one of two states. However, the real world is messy and things don't often work out as they're 'supposed' to, especially when many different influences can combine to tip the scale away from what our genes say. I think that sexual orientation is also more or less 'built in', with a default setting of heterosexual, but again this can be modified by other factors. So, while gender identity and sexual orientation typically align with biological sex, they don't always do so, nor do they always align with each other.

In your thought experiment, Sarah, you've implicitly assumed that our current attitudes toward gender and conformity persist. In that sort of situation, my simplistic response is that some people would opt to conform and others would still choose to switch. I can't make any sort of prediction as to what the ratio would be (though I suspect conformity would be higher as there'd still a stigma associated with transitioning and it's the 'easy out').

What is interesting to me, however, is how the question changes if this future society does not have any expectations of gender conformity. That is, what if there were no gender-specific expectations about dress or behaviour or sexual orientation (i.e. same-sex relations have no stigma attached) - that is, if there is no social pressure to conform to gender norms because there are no norms? Transitioning would simply be a matter of a basic medical procedure to align one's outward appearance with one's inner identity. In that case, would people still choose to transition at all? Or would the fact that you could wear what you liked and behave as you wished make that completely irrelevant? (My answer: I think that a small percentage would still opt for the change, but it would be much lower than it is now.)

[kimdl93]

I can so relate to this observation by Kaitlyn Michele: "...one of my huge stumbling blocks was feeling that i couldn't possibly be transsexual like those "true" or "real" transsexuals... my dressing was so ingrained i couldn't get around it..."

I feel as though the tug of war was mostly internal...for this very reason.

[LeaP]

Kaitlyn,

I really like your comments about reverting to your natural nature (redundant, I suppose), as well as those about being transsexual enough.

The first provided me with a moment of realization. It is in my nature to be comprehensive, completely and totally exhaustive before making a move. When I am ready, I can move quite quickly. To me this all feels normal. To others it appears like procrastination and capriciousness. A major problem for me with identity was my effort to justify and intellectualize it. Again, normal for me, but ultimately not doable with identity itself. Learning to be in touch with your feelings and trusting them is very hard when you've spent a lifetime pushing them away. As you know, a major blockage and risk point for me has just freed up. And I have already started moving, as I was ready sometime ago. I was able to bring up both name and gender change as well as FFS in short order. (Not that I have resolution there yet!)

The trans enough thing is something that comes and goes with the circumstances of the moment. I can be completely settled and quite happy. GD under control. And for a time, I did wonder if what I had done was enough – that I didn't have a need to transition. And then something will happen and something in me kicks back viciously, instantly in ways that I won't detail here. That pattern informs my path. But knowing, and actually feeling at this point, the regret and waste of my life should I not transition, is constant. My identity feels settled. Trans enough, for me, feels like it is about consequences.

[Rianna Humble]

I do not believe gender identity disorder is a 'disorder' in a true sense the way cancer or heart failure is, but it is rather a social construct.

I couldn't disagree more strongly with this idea.

There is no "social construct" to knowing you are a girl but look like a boy (or vice versa for FtM transpeople).

There is no "social construct" to being devastated by the ravages of testosterone poisoning.

There is no "social construct" to not understanding why men do things and only being able to give a pale imitation of those actions.

[LeaP]

Actually, Rianna, I think Sara would need to be more specific about what she means. Narrowly, the only place gender identity disorder really exists anymore is in the ICD coding. Unlike the DSM, the phrase was carried over into the ICD 10. A diagnostic category and criteria are highly artificial.

If she means gender dysphoria in the general sense, and there is an argument for it being due to lack of social acceptance. Indeed, the literature makes the observation that not every transsexual suffers GD. The new DSM update also adds a specifier for those post transition, where no gender dysphoria might exist any longer. So in that sense, you can say it is a social construct. Or perhaps a reaction to social constructs.

Finally, for some the issue is about expression and not cross sex physical conflicts. Personally, I think people transition for a lot of different reasons. The ones we classically think of as transsexual, however, are cross sexed and do experience the mind versus body conflict. For those of us are in that category, and I am also one, there is very little social construct to it.

[Starling]

...dysphoria seems to be only mitigated by female expression, another is that untreated it always gets worse and reaches the natural point of suffering based on your identity.

...my SUFFERING took over and made all other concerns meaningless...

This is why the only thinking that really helps goes into planning what the hell to do about the truth your gut is screaming at you.

:) Lallie

[Rianna Humble]

If she means gender dysphoria in the general sense, and there is an argument for it being due to lack of social acceptance. Indeed, the literature makes the observation that not every transsexual suffers GD. The new DSM update also adds a specifier for those post transition, where no gender dysphoria might exist any longer. So in that sense, you can say it is a social construct.

I'll see your theory and raise you dozens of lived experiences

[LeaP]

Well, that's the psych community's theory, not mine. But I'll see your lived experiences and raise you a private health care plan with no trans exclusions. I'd toss in Ray Blanchard, too, but he's not worth anything.

[stefan37]

And that is what much of it is. Theory.

[sarahcsc]

Actually, Rianna, I think Sara would need to be more specific about what she means. Narrowly, the only place gender identity disorder really exists anymore is in the ICD coding. Unlike the DSM, the phrase was carried over into the ICD 10. A diagnostic category and criteria are highly artificial.

If she means gender dysphoria in the general sense, and there is an argument for it being due to lack of social acceptance. Indeed, the literature makes the observation that not every transsexual suffers GD. The new DSM update also adds a specifier for those post transition, where no gender dysphoria might exist any longer. So in that sense, you can say it is a social construct. Or perhaps a reaction to social constructs.

Finally, for some the issue is about expression and not cross sex physical conflicts. Personally, I think people transition for a lot of different reasons. The ones we classically think of as transsexual, however, are cross sexed and do experience the mind versus body conflict. For those of us are in that category, and I am also one, there is very little social construct to it.

Yeap. I agree with you. Refer to post #6.


I couldn't disagree more strongly with this idea.

There is no "social construct" to knowing you are a girl but look like a boy (or vice versa for FtM transpeople).

There is no "social construct" to being devastated by the ravages of testosterone poisoning.

There is no "social construct" to not understanding why men do things and only being able to give a pale imitation of those actions.

Rianna, don't take this personally because I am on your side.

All I'm saying is that GID as a 'disorder', is degrading. I agree better with the term 'gender dyphoria' as stated in the DSM-5 but I believe there is still some work to be done. I apologize for sounding insensitive. But please refer to my post #6 for more information. Thanks...


I can so relate to this observation by Kaitlyn Michele: "...one of my huge stumbling blocks was feeling that i couldn't possibly be transsexual like those "true" or "real" transsexuals... my dressing was so ingrained i couldn't get around it..."

I feel as though the tug of war was mostly internal...for this very reason.

Yeap. The age old question of "am I dysphoric enough?" or "why do I struggle so much with what I already know?"


What is interesting to me, however, is how the question changes if this future society does not have any expectations of gender conformity. That is, what if there were no gender-specific expectations about dress or behaviour or sexual orientation (i.e. same-sex relations have no stigma attached) - that is, if there is no social pressure to conform to gender norms because there are no norms? Transitioning would simply be a matter of a basic medical procedure to align one's outward appearance with one's inner identity. In that case, would people still choose to transition at all? Or would the fact that you could wear what you liked and behave as you wished make that completely irrelevant? (My answer: I think that a small percentage would still opt for the change, but it would be much lower than it is now.)

Hi Mayo,

I suspect you are right. Like I said, GD as strictly defined in the textbooks probably only apply to a minority of individuals who displays crossgrender behaviours. Therefore, in world where there are no pressures to conform to a certain gender role, I suspect the number of individuals choosing to transition might be far lower.




i can only say this in hindsight...i'm glad my GD exploded...it informed me and comforted me at the same time it terrified and crushed me...my transition was carefully planned and executed but it felt like autopilot...my nature is to plan and execute ... i defaulted to it.... it seems sarah your nature is to contemplate and jump in the rabbit hole of unknowable things... i was there too but my desperation and nature got me out..

i hope you can make progress and feel better and better until you find your natural place

Thanks, Kaitlyn. I'm quite happy with my current situation although I can't tell if my GD may or may not explode later in life. Gosh... I sure hope not.

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LeaP mentioned a good point that not every transsexual suffers from GD, and Kimdl93 mentioned about an 'internal struggle'.

There are a lot more to this that continues to elude researchers and the real mystery is where did the dysphoria comes from?

How is it that some transsexuals have no internal conflicts and spend their entire lives preparing for SRS without questioning or beating themselves down, yet others are pushed to the point of suicide before they are willing to do something about it?

This could be biological (temperamental), or this could be psychological (personality), or it could even be sociological (external pressures).

Or maybe there are different subtypes of GD? (wow, I'm getting ahead of myself)

Another 'disorder' worth mentioning is 'homosexuality' which was revised initially following gay activists movement and subsequently removed. It is worth nothing that the initial term coined in DSM-III was 'sexual orientation disturbance', which was later revised to 'sexual orientation disorder'.The latter term was used to describe a group of individuals who are homosexuals but are also unhappy with the fact that they are. Is this biological, psychological, or sociological?

I wonder if gender dysphoria might one day be removed completely from DSM... (most likely not, at least for a long time) We can talk about the implications of this in another thread.

But the original topic was about a 'tug of war' we have with society and I guess I've been remiss not to define what 'society' is.

Society to me, in this discussion, refers to the cis-gender population at large. I'm not talking about any specific age, cultural, or political group, but just everyone else in general. It could include your spouse, your neighbour, your local politician, your pastor, your highschool teacher, your doctor, etc.

It just seems to me that we are in a tug of war with society. However, to put things in perspective, this tug of war is not unique. There are always groups of individuals out there involved such a tug because of clashing sentiments, values, interests, ideologies, ambitions, etc. *shrugs*

Some of these tugs seemed really important if not devastating. I just wondered if we are needlessly engaging in a tug with no clear victor.

Love,
S

[PretzelGirl]

How is it that some transsexuals have no internal conflicts and spend their entire lives preparing for SRS without questioning or beating themselves down, yet others are pushed to the point of suicide before they are willing to do something about it?

This could be biological (temperamental), or this could be psychological (personality), or it could even be sociological (external pressures).

Or maybe there are different subtypes of GD? (wow, I'm getting ahead of myself)

I think, like all things, it needs to be viewed as a range instead of a binary result. I wasn't (thankfully) suicidal. But I certainly had my level of dysphoria. I think your second line is right, except it isn't "or" but "and/or". Multiple factors have their impact on how we react to ourselves.

Having different types of GD is probably just how we define it. Anything that I am dysphoric over relating to my gender role, presentation, and/or feelings would be GD to me. But if it is an intellectual discussion, say among therapist, you could break components down so that you can address them directly with a patient.


It just seems to me that we are in a tug of war with society. However, to put things in perspective, this tug of war is not unique. There are always groups of individuals out there involved such a tug because of clashing sentiments, values, interests, ideologies, ambitions, etc. *shrugs*

Some of these tugs seemed really important if not devastating. I just wondered if we are needlessly engaging in a tug with no clear victor.

I agree in that pretty much everything is a society tug of war. I think the value is there because it encompasses so many elements; self acceptance, peer acceptance, jobs, health care..... These are all things we need society's knowledge at some level in order to achieve it.

[LeaP]

Some may feel that breaking out distinctions doesn't serve any point, but I think they help with advising people properly and arriving at proper solutions. Rianna's comment and thinking through my response were helpful to me in thinking through some of these.

I have been focused on identity as a defining point for a while now. I'm not so sure anymore. Oh, I identify as female, but it is no longer a source of conflict. I have arrived at a point where I wonder where identity is and what it is, as I, like so many others, simply feel like myself these days. I went through a period where I could tell my identity had emerged, but rarely feel that any longer since I have become accustomed. I feel some pressure over presentation, but not a lot. Moreover, what I do feel, I attribute mostly to delay frustration associated with transition itself.

The continuing – and perhaps final – source of conflict, hence the one that defines in the end for me, is being cross-sexed. I.e., feeling in conflict with my body and it's configuration versus what I feel it should be, and the damage that has been done by testosterone.

Perhaps those who transition who do not feel cross-sexed are truly trans GENDER and not trans SEXUAL. This would be especially true when they seek no surgeries or hormones, or perhaps hormones for appearance effect only. I would never disparage such a transition for those who feel they need to take that route. But such a transition would still leave me with a serious issue.

[Marleena]

Perhaps those who transition who do not feel cross-sexed are truly trans GENDER and not trans SEXUAL. This would be especially true when they seek no surgeries or hormones, or perhaps hormones for appearance effect only. I would never disparage such a transition for those who feel they need to take that route. But such a transition would still leave me with a serious issue.

We are a diverse group (TS), that is for sure. There are different approaches to how each of us deal with being TS. I too identify as female but since starting HRT I feel like ME also. I sought help because of the GD and to improve my quality of life, which it did do. I was a mess and the last thing I wanted to be was TS! I'm in a holding pattern now because having the correct sex hormones now has worked very well for me. Will it be enough, time will tell. My situation is not very good for a successful transition at this time anyways. Some of you will say I'm making up excuses and that's okay too.

We all know the TS roadmap is the expected path for TS individuals but it's not the only path, there are choices. I always seem to go back to Anne Vitale's studies when questioning anything TS related. For late transitioners especially, HRT, quite often is enough for those experiencing GD. Others just continue to suffer or find other ways of trying to deal with the GD. Some will fully transition late in life. It's not always as simple as you're TS you need to transition fully.

Some of the members here can manage their GD by living full time as a female, some need HRT but can't take it because of health reasons. Some live dual lives ( male at work) female at home. Fear holds some back and maybe the intensity of the GD factors into the need to transition too. We have members here that knew clearly they were TS and bypassed therapists and started HRT on their own. Many of them have gone on to have GRS and are happy. What I will say is if you suspect you may be TS see a gender therapist to help you find your answer.

"Don't transition unless you have to" is one of the best statements made here. Transition is tough, takes a lot of money and you need to be prepared to lose everything.

If you (anybody) don't transition, I for one will not think any less of you.


Just my thoughts.

[Jorja]

@Marleena - I do not see why anyone here would condemn you for not fully transitioning. We all are not able to do it, period. Some have medical reasons, some have mental reasons, some have martial reasons, and so on. The key here is that you realized that you have gender dysphoria and have taken steps to relieve it. You have made an effort to go as far as your limits will allow. Everyone else needs to get over it.

BTW, TS roadmap is NOT the expected path for TS individuals. It is one person's attempt to help others organize transition. It is a very well put together site but no one says you need to follow it. You need to come up with a plan that works for you. Nothing more, nothing less.

[PaulaQ]

I do not believe gender identity disorder is a 'disorder' in a true sense the way cancer or heart failure is, but it is rather a social construct. Hence, to relieve ourselves of suffering, we need to cut out the social element of it (as much as we feasibly can).


I'm going to agree with Rianna on this. This isn't a social construct. If gender identity disorder is a social construct, that could be eliminated by, for example a more androgynous society, then why do we have trans men? After all, women can present as extremely masculine, and no one thinks twice about it. Indeed, this is actually a problem for many trans men - until they have physical changes to their body from T, generally no one treats them like men, or even understands that they'd want such treatment.

If GD or gender identity are social constructs, then why did estradiol and spiro rather quickly end the worst of my depression, anxiety, panic attacks, and generally crippling mental and emotional pain I felt? The antidepressant and other such meds I was given did nothing to alleviate the pain I felt. When I started, social changes for me really weren't happening so much yet - I didn't pass well. I wasn't out at my job. I presented as female, and this helped, but even doing that, before starting HRT I was in such pain and mental anguish that I doubted I'd make it to the end of the year without committing suicide. I just wanted the pain to stop. And it was greatly, greatly reduced to a survivable level, thanks to HRT.

Unless you've experienced GD to the extent that some of us have, you cannot begin to imagine what a powerful, fundamental, and biologically imperative need it is to align your body with what your mind knows it to be. I know others who conclude gender is a social construct - they've simply never experienced really severe GD. Those of us who have often feel as I do - we'd choose death before going back to life as our assigned at birth gender.

Even today, as much improved as I feel, I still feel the cruel grip of GD in my dreams - I have genuinely horrifying dreams about my genitals. A lot of nights I don't sleep much. And while I'm scheduled for Feb. 2016 for GRS with Bowers, I sometimes worry I won't make it, and I'm quite certain that if something dreadful happens and I'm not able to obtain this surgery, I fear I'll eventually succumb to these feelings, and end my life.

These feelings are the strongest thing I've ever experienced. Stronger than my needs for food or sex. Stronger (by far) than any craving I have ever had for alcohol, and believe me, I had strong cravings for that - I'm sober 25 years now, but drinking nearly ended my life.

My GD, my gender identity, my need to be who I really am is the most real thing I know of. It has a power and a force that makes me fear NOTHING on this earth more than it. There is no torture, mishap, disease, or fate I fear more than it. I fear very little now, because I know with a great deal of certainty that there is nothing worse that I could feel than the GD I experienced two years ago, when I attempted suicide.

[Leah Lynn]

I was suffering GD long before I knew what it was or what was affecting me. I thought I'd left all vestiges of crossdressing and believing I was supposed to be female far in the dusts of time. I was always angry and frustrated, but had no clue as to the cause. When I told my primary care giver that I'd been having suicidal thoughts, a trip to the psychiatrist was ordered. She told me what was wrong, and said I should start HRT as soon as possible, if only to save my life. That's not social construct.

Leah

[sarahcsc]

That's not social construct.


I'm going to agree with Rianna on this. This isn't a social construct.


I couldn't disagree more strongly with this idea.



In response to Leah, Paula, and Rianna, and all others who have read my OP, I do believe I owe you here an apology for not making my stand regarding "gender dysphoria" and "gender identity disorder" clearer and more specific.

This has led to some confusion and misunderstanding.

I have hopefully explained myself better in post #6 but maybe that too is too brief and unclear.

I can also see why some would disagree vehemently because by saying GID is a 'social construct' undermines their entire struggle. I am NOT trying to do that. :)

But I am also NOT going to tip toe around the elephant in the room that is the social aspect to our individual struggles.

Remember, I said "individual" struggles. I'm saying that to highlight the diversity of the transcommunity since every one here is so different with their own individual challenges. My challenges are largely psychological, interpersonal, and cultural. Others could be more different (eg. biological, economical, and practical. )

Let me reiterate myself once more (I'm not optimistic though):

================================================== ================================================== =================

GID and GD are NOT THE SAME. (make sure you and I are talking about same thing)
In GID, you are 'disordered'. If that works for you then, yes, remain disordered.
In GD, you are not 'disordered' but you are 'suffering' (dysphoria).

GID is outdated.
GD is the new term adopted in DSM-5.

GID is a social construct hence it was replaced by GD which is more neutral.

By no longer calling your condition a 'disorder', clinicians and researchers are not trying to trivialize your experience, but they are putting some perspective on it.

Maybe being gender dysphoric is not a disorder but a part of the normal human expression. Who knows?

GID is a social construct. Cut out the social element and you are left with GD.

And GD has the biological, psychological, and social elements to it.

================================================== ================================================== ==================

Again, I would like to come to the point made by LeaP and Kimdl:

Why is it that not every transsexual experiences GD, and why does the internal struggle happen for some but not all?

We've discussed briefly about the idea that this could be multifactorial. (ie. biopsychosocial)

But more importantly, are we fighting needlessly with society (the rest of cis-gendered people)?

Should we find an alternative approach to live our lives? One that is more dignified where our happiness is not contingent on other people's acceptance, which we can't realistically expect or force! (Again, I'm not saying we disengage completely with the rest of the cis-gender population)

That is the question...

And this may be the most important question to answer because it may mean the difference between having an internal struggle or not.

Because...

In a world where no gender norms are established, wouldn’t performing SRS be the same as performing any other cosmetic surgery?

Wouldn't there be equal public funding for SRS the way there is for essential surgeries (ie. appendectomy). It does sound like for some of us, having the operation or not may mean the difference between life and death.

Do we still need ‘experts’ to tell us that we are unhappy with bodies because we exhibited symptoms A, B and C when we know it better than anybody else?

Do you think SRS will increase in prevalence or decrease? If you believe it will increase then perhaps society is holding us back now, but if you believe it will decrease then society is doing something very wrong at present.

Just thinking.

Yours,
S

[PaulaQ]

In a world where no gender norms are established, wouldn’t performing SRS be the same as performing any other cosmetic surgery?

1. This world will never exist. I firmly believe that the need for differences between men and women is well established in our minds. The details of how men and women express their gender are completely arbitrary. But in virtually all human societies, such differences and norms exist. Even if they didn't, we'd gender one another rather quickly - this happens within 1/10th of a second. No one teaches us how to do this.

2. Gender norms are much, much looser for women then men. And yet trans men still exist. And they exist for the same reason that many of us MtF's exist - being a man with breasts and no penis feels WRONG to them, just as being a woman without breasts, and no vagina feels horribly, nightmarishly wrong to many of us. Our minds know who we are and how we are supposed to look. The disconnect between our bodies and our internal gender identities are painful for many of us.

You are confusing gender expression with gender identity. No amount of dressing like a woman stops the horrible, horrible nightmares about my genitals that keep me sleepless.


Wouldn't there be equal public funding for SRS the way there is for essential surgeries (ie. appendectomy). It does sound like for some of us, having the operation or not may mean the difference between life and death.

Some of us don't need surgery. The ones who do need it, often really need it - our incredibly high suicide rates are not only because of social stigma and discrimination. They are also caused by the intense discomfort with our bodies that some of us feel.


Do we still need ‘experts’ to tell us that we are unhappy with bodies because we exhibited symptoms A, B and C when we know it better than anybody else?

No. We need experts to help us figure this out for ourselves, if we are having trouble with that, and to insure that we aren't obviously incapable of giving informed consent. (Particularly for anything beyond starting HRT.)


Do you think SRS will increase in prevalence or decrease? If you believe it will increase then perhaps society is holding us back now,

GRS will increase in prevalence. Also GRS will be performed at younger ages than it typically is now. For many of us, this is a childhood condition that could be best treated before puberty, as is increasingly happening now. And yes, until recently, society has done everything it could to hold us back.

[LeaP]

Gender IS intrinsic. Humans will not only always find a way to express it, but to express it in a way that differentiates us. That's why so much discussion of the details (e.g., looser this or tighter that or permissiveness for this or that) are irrelevant. We can tell the boys from the girls in any era, place or culture. Since, in my opinion, being cross-sexed drives you toward the binary, transsexuals will always be gender stressed.

The psych industry is responsible for creating much of the confusion here. It starts with the conflation of various psychological issues and cross-sex conflict. The former gets lumped into GD (improperly, in my opinion). The latter may or may not trigger GD. Paula is describing her own, true GD - clinical levels of distress over the body/mind conflict itself. It is just as clear, however, that there are those who are also cross-sexed who do not experience this. There is gender stress, as I said earlier. There is a need to transition. But not GD per se. Why some are like this while most of us are not is a mystery to me! My working theory is that most personality types are driven to internalize the stress.

[PaulaQ]

LeaP, I agree with you. Why some of us experience these things, and some don't, I can't say. I wish I didn't, and I'm glad some do not, but are able to seek the help they need anyway. One of the most confusing and difficult things about gender identity, and issues with it, is that the experience of various trans people, both their relationship with their gender, and the difficulties they encounter because of it vary over a very, very large range. So large that sometimes it's easy for us as a community to discount the experiences of someone who's feelings on these matters differ significantly from our own.

[Starling]

...Paula is describing her own, true GD - clinical levels of distress over the body/mind conflict itself...My working theory is that most personality types are driven to internalize the stress.

I know it's a true, physical phenomenon. As I grew older, my C-Reactive Protein levels began to soar, and now my arterial plaque is out of proportion to my normal-range cholesterol levels. I'm hoping that the stress-reducing effects of HRT will outweigh its risk of blood-clotting.

:) Lallie