Drag queens, inclusivity and problems.

[Sarah-RT]

Hey all,

I was reading an article on Facebook about a pride weekend in Britain soon that has banned drag performers unless the performers are trans to avoid upsetting trans people who may be offended or afraid to be themselves.
It has caused a backlash by the gay community, many of which are condemning the lack of expression and freedom.

My question is, do you find drag queens/kings offensive?

There is a well known drag queen from Dublin called panti bliss who has spent the bulk of his career trying to further LGBT rights, mostly LGB rights since he's a gay man but the inclusivity is noted.
He owns and performs in a bar called the panti bar in Dublin and he has come out complaining on the decision by the pride organisers. I can understand that what he does is a profession rather than a lifestyle but it seems very narrow minded, and as he said, pigeon holing which we actively try to avoid (male or female only, that's the given gender pigeon holes)

Personally I find drag, while a bit OTT, helpful, twice I've been in an LGBT bar for drag shows and I look at them and say, no one in here minds what they wear. I am actually planning on going to his bar at the weekend dressed for my birthday since it feels like a place of safety or comfort to be yourself but I can't help but think that if he was there and saw me would he have any animosity towards us after this PC overload.

Thoughts?
Sarah x

[pamela7]

it sounds like political correctness gone too far to me. I can guess at their rationale - that the drag-queen can "take the mick" (apologies for the non-pc irish term) out of transgender, or cause offense but ...

the entire CD world is largely straight and surely can only include anyone who dresses as the other gender than their physical body, otherwise we will see the CD's kicked out of the LGBT, and that can't be right?!

[Belle Cri]

But there you have it, Pamela. I'll sit there and watch these debates and I feel like I'm at the net at a tennis match. Gay [lob] Straight [lob]. Uh, what happened to folks right in the middle like me? I love drag queens - some very close friends were campy as can be and had a great time, never taking much seriously. Except for one very critical thing - acceptance, the very thing we all crave (I assume). So at least within the gay community, there is a mechanism for inbuilt acceptance. Outside that community, it's much harder, but I find it very difficult to be handed a platform as a strict condition to inclusion, acceptance or friendship. So, I simply do not know where I fall within the definitional spectrum, and as time goes by, I care less daily.

So for Sarah - go to the bar, dress, have a wonderful time, and when the going gets rough, remember that you always have the option to best anyone at their game. Be fabulous.

[pamela7]

I'm in the middle too, Belle Cri, I just don't advertise it, well perhaps I do?!

[Belle Cri]

And what of it if you do? For me the path of realization of bisexuality -> dressing was much easier than what I had struggled with before, which was dressing -> bisexuality. It's a matter of emphasis one might say :)

[kimdl93]

I wouldn't say offensive. Over the top, perhaps. I don't personally want to present in such an over stylized manner. But I would think that reasonable people could acknowledge that much of what goes on in a Pride parade....or a St Paddy's parade for that matter...is intentionally over the top. That's part of the fun.

[Marcia Blue]

I have a friends who do Drag. Some are Gay, Some are Straight, Some are Trans, and some are CD. People need to be open minded or tolerant of others. Intolerance leads to many, man made ills.

[Ceera]

I don't find drag performers offensive at all. I frequently go to drag shows en-femme and watch them, and I tip the performers regularly for their efforts. Many of the drag performers in my area are staunch supporters of the LGBT community, and regularly help with fund raisers and other efforts. I chose the club that I go to as my preferred public hangout while en-femme precisely because they host drag shows. Since the clientèle accepts that, I felt they would also accept CD customers, and I was right. It's proven to be a very safe and inclusive place for me to go as a woman.

The only problem I have with them isn't with the performers at all - it's with other people who are neither drag performers or CD/TG themselves, but assume that drag performers and CD/TG people are the same thing.

What they do as drag performers is most often a parody of the gender they portray, very intentionally over the top, and they make no secret of the idea that even if they are male and have obviously had a boob job or are on HRT or have had other transformational body work, they are still very much a 'man in a dress' (or vice versa, as applies to the FtM performers).

What I do when I go out is try to make a genuine effort to transform myself into a reasonable semblance of a real woman, and I want to be treated like a real woman. My clothes may be sexy but are never outrageous or scandalous. My makeup is subtle and understated, suitable for what a GG would wear in that venue. I once had a great night out where I hooked up with with a group of four lesbian girls, and where one of them in particular absolutely loved how I looked and dressed and how comfortable I was in heels. She repeatedly said I was 'amazing', and she loved including me in their group. But she also automatically assumed that I should join the drag show and perform, and I couldn't dissuade her of that notion. She literally dragged me by the hand at a near run all over the club, trying to get me signed up! (It made me very glad that I can run comfortably in heels!) I never followed through on it, and the bartender that obligingly took my information while she watched knew me well enough as a frequent normal CD customer that I'm sure he just tossed the info after she left.

[Mayo]

Drag has a long history within the LGBTQ community and I'm not aware of any general sentiment that drag is inherently transnegative. I suppose it should be dealt with on an individual basis, e.g. whether or not an individual performer's act is transphobic, just as you wouldn't invite a sexist comedian to perform at a feminist venue or a homophobe at a Pride event.

(I acknowledge that I may be speaking from a position of relative ignorance and am happy to be corrected.)

[Alexis08]

While I'm no fan of drag queens that look and act like clowns, I still think they should not be banned. There are crossdressers who walk around with beard and hairy legs.

[BillieJoEllen]

I'm not a fan of drag queens because it seems they're always overplaying their part. I always attend our local parades with my wife and there is a group of DQs that sometimes appear in them. My wife always gets furious when she sees them will wind up not speaking to me for 2 or 3 days. She always equates what I do to what they do.

[sometimes_miss]

I too don't find drag queens offensive. They're being themselves, and aren't being any more stereotypically over the top than rich women who carry around little dogs in their purses. Our society has gotten to the point where only certain groups, and certain people, are allowed to feel offended, because they believe that only their feelings count. It's actually the opposite of political correctness. The rest of us are just supposed to shut up and deal with it. I don't know what the answer is, but I can definitely tell you, that whether you can see it happening or not, there is a backlash effect to it when you trample on their lives. Don't believe me? Consider: If you treat your servers with contempt whenever you go to a restaurant, you can absolutely, positively know for certain that they're eventually going to do something evil to your food. So those who p!ss people off by trying to censor them and remove them from the public view, will eventually have it come around back to them. karma can be a real b!tch sometimes.

[LucyNewport]

I find the ousting of drag queens to be a bit offensive, actually. It is also prudish and needlessly divisive. Who gets to decide which queens are trans enough to go on? I get that a drag show can be raunchy and have aggressively bad taste - that's the point. They are supposed to be a bit uncomfortable. A good drag show crosses boundaries and goes after taboos. It challenges the little cultural assumptions we make about society, gender, power etc.

DQ's are some of the hardest working and least appreciated performers around. The events they host are almost always the most inclusive for folks like us. We should always return the favor.

IMO, obvs.

[NicoleScott]

I was reading an article on Facebook about a pride weekend in Britain soon that has banned drag performers unless the performers are trans to avoid upsetting trans people who may be offended or afraid to be themselves.


How do the event officials know who is trans? Do people who find the style and demeanor of drag queens offensive only think that way if the drag queen is not trans? But first things first: what is trans? We're all together on the definition, right?

[Jenniferathome]

Drag is neither offensive nor interesting to me. I do NOT think that drag represents the cross dressing nor trans community at large. While the drag community is certain "out" they re, unfortunately, what most normals think is cross dressing and cross dressing behavior. THAT part of drag I do not like at all. Now, banning drag queens from an LGBT event is rather absurd.

[Sarah-RT]

I see that almost everyone has agree'd on the negative idea of banning them, pride festivals are usually glamorous and OTT to celebrate being who you are. Im getting the idea from the way the article I read ( ill add a link) refers to transgender as transsexual rather than the umbrella term many of us have adopted, the point still stands though.

Bear with me and ill get the link: ( https://www.facebook.com/freeprideglasgow?fref=nf ) thats to the event organisers facebook page, the first 3 or so posts are all about the issue. what I cant get my head around is what is a trans drag performer? do we do our best to look femme, and then a poor attempt to try and look like men again? very odd..

Sarah x

[arbon]

wow, I think that is ridiculous! I like drag queens and think trans women that get offended by them need to stop being so sensitive to what everyone else is doing.


what I cant get my head around is what is a trans drag performer?

I do know one transitioned woman that likes doing drag performances too. And to be honest I've been kinda drawn to the idea of doing it something about it seems like it could be fun.

[Krisi]

Drag queens are acting a part. No more, no less. It's not something that interests me but limiting performers based on their sexual identity seems wrong and probably illegal.

[LilSissyStevie]

How do the event officials know who is trans? Do people who find the style and demeanor of drag queens offensive only think that way if the drag queen is not trans? But first things first: what is trans? We're all together on the definition, right?

Maybe they can set up a TSA like checkpoint where everyone has to show their junk to get in.:brolleyes:

[Katey888]

Weird... and totally daft... :facepalm:

Ban DQs because some MtF trans people might be offended...

What follows that is banning MtF crossdressers because some GGs might be offended...

Or how about banning lesbians because heterosexual MtF CDers might be offended...

or... or... or...

And since when have the Bonnie Scots been worried about offending ANYONE! ;)

Barmy...

Katey x

[JamieG]

A lot of people tend to forget that drag queens were at the forefront of one of the most pivotal moments in LGBT civil rights: the Stonewall Riots in NYC. If anyone has earned a right to be themselves at a Pride festival, it is drag queens. One group under the LGBT umbrella cannot decide to be intolerant towards any other group. In fact, I think having both transwomen (and transmen) and drag queens visible at a Pride festival will go a long away towards emphasizing the differences, which are generally unclear in the minds of the general public. Now, if a specific individual is consistently mocking or antagonizing another group, or is behaving in a way that is inappropriate (and I think a lot of leeway on appropriateness should be granted for a PrideFest), banning or kicking out that individual is justified. Following the rules of a particular festival shouldn't be that hard for most attendees. I've been to a family-friendly Pride Festival where the drag queens (some of them nationally known) eliminated the vulgarity in their acts and actually interacted with the children in the audience in a very sweet way.

[flatlander_48]

My question is, do you find drag queens/kings offensive?

No, not in the least. It is entertainment; no more, no less. Personally, I wouldn't even call it a lifestyle as people usually don't do that as an everyday, daytime thing. If you took the time to do makeup like that every day, you'd never get out of the house.

Further, it is silly to me to exclude people. It sounds like the flip side of excluding trans women at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival and I don't think that's right either. Simply BS in my opinion.

DeeAnn

[CynthiaD]

I'm not a big fan of drag queens, but I certainly don't find them offensive. Banning them from a pride event does seem a little weird.

[Robert]

There are some who equate drag with donning blackface, and see it as mocking women. I have a female friend who argues just this, and her arguments are compelling.

I have also heard some DQs call women pretty terrible names.

[Marcelle]

How do the event officials know who is trans? . . . But first things first: what is trans? We're all together on the definition, right?

Arrg . . . I was going to ask the exact same question Nicole. Do we have start bringing our "Trans Identity Cards" to events now? Plain stupid, narrow minded and just not right IMHO :facepalm:

Cheers

Isha

[PaulaQ]

There are some who equate drag with donning blackface, and see it as mocking women. I have a female friend who argues just this, and her arguments are compelling.

I don't buy this argument, mostly because I've heard it used against both trans women, and even CDs. It just amazes me to listen to some loud-mouthed cisgender woman with a chip on her shoulder who chides one of us for trying to define femininity for her, who then turns around and defines it for me. (Hint: even if you are a cisgender woman, you don't get to define what it means to be a woman for anyone but yourself, really.)

I know several drag queens who are in transition. There isn't any way to tell who will or won't transition early on. I also know several drag kings, some of whom are also in transition.

[KittyD]

There is a huge history behind drag or drag queens!
I think I may of posted before that it goes way back to William Shakespeare because of the lack of female actors of the time and then it evolved into pantomime dames or commonly known as the ugly sisters.
Through time it grew again to what we see today "Drag Queens" all over the world.
Bring us such artists and performers as RuPaul - Lily savage - Divine etc...
(The history is important and is always over looked)

Never have I seen or heard of a Drag Queen standing on stage and making pasting comments or jokes to put down one group of people.
Drag Queens on a comical level operate on one level "Your all fair game"
Welcome to the world of laughter...!
The aim as a whole is one of a twisted and bitter nature to use gossip and innuendo as a tool and weapon of fast wit charm and misdirection.
I love Drag acts and artist in all the forms :)

Kate :)
Some many feel that I'm more Drag than Cross-dresser!

[Mayo]

Here's an updated version of the story: https://medium.com/@keisisqrl/no-free-pride-glasgow-did-not-ban-drag-queens-ea62d745c7d5

The Medium strongly takes Pink News to task for focusing on drag queens when all drag acts were banned. I think TM has a valid point re the dominance of cis het men but excoriating PN for not mentioning that Free Pride changed their policy to allow trans drag performers* only a few hours before PN released their article seems like a cheap shot.


* I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around 'trans drag performer' but I expect I'm missing some nuance :)

[Badtranny]

This is exactly why I'm forever at odds with my ridiculous community. Also why my screen name is Badtranny because I will never support this kind of rampant political correctness.

The same people who argue that 'tranny' is a slur and should be banned, are the people responsible for this next step. When this whole neo-trans movement started picking up steam a couple of years ago I went on record that the PC brigade was going to eventually come for all of us, and this laughable discussion about not allowing drag queens at a PRIDE parade is I'm afraid not even close to the end of it.

Countless people on this very forum (most not even transitioned) were crowing about how offensive RuPaul was to the 'real' trans women and how horrifying it was that she used the word 'she-mail' on her show.

Well congratulations PC cops, you got your way then, and now the seeds of your discontent are apparently beginning to bear fruit. Enjoy it.

By the way, Drag Queens aren't going anywhere. They were born underground and they will return there if necessary. If freedom is a sword, political correctness is a pocket knife.

[Alexis08]

I like RuPaul as person, he looks amazing as woman but I don't like his tv show for two reasons: some of the contestants dress as aliens not as women. The contestants appear as males on the show e.g when they're being interviewed. I think your male identity is something private, you should keep it out of the public eye. I think It's one of the things that make drag queens and crossdressers interesting. "What do these beautiful DQs/CDers look like without makeup and wig/as males?".


As for words like tranny, :edit:, etc, personally I have no problem with them. Trans women in porn usually look good and feminine. Why wouldn't anyone want to be associated with them?

I don't know why some crossdressers get offended when RuPaul uses such words on his drag queen show.

[Lorileah]

Did anyone read the statements? They didn't ban drag queen, they banned drag performances.


A statement from the group, which organised the event as an “anti-commercialist” alternative to the city’s traditional Pride event, said: “After much discussion, the trans and non binary caucus decided not to have drag acts perform at the event.
“This does not mean that people of any gender can’t wear what they want to the event, we simply won’t be having any self-described drag acts perform at our Free Pride Event on the 22nd August. We hope people can understand and support our decision. However we feel it important to fully explain why we came this decision.

“The decision was taken by transgender individuals who were uncomfortable with having drag performances at the event. It was felt that it would make some of those who were transgender or questioning their gender uncomfortable.

It continued: “It was felt by the group within the Trans/Non Binary Caucus that some drag performance, particularly cis drag, hinges on the social view of gender and making it into a joke, however transgender individuals do not feel as though their gender identity is a joke.

So basically they say you come, march whatever. They just won't have drag shows. So what? It's their event. Anyone can come, anyone can dress....

[denese]

i have heard many many times "i don't like labels". yet here we are applying them to ourselves.

[arbon]

So basically they say you come, march whatever. They just won't have drag shows. So what? It's their event. Anyone can come, anyone can dress....

I read them before you posted and still thought it was ridiculous. I hope this idea does not spread. It is their event but it is appropriate to have discussion about it.

Drag performances were a big part of our pride event. They were a blast. I would really be opposed and disappointed if they wanted to do that here. They don't do it for laughs or to put others in a bad light - it is a performance, an art for them. It has always been a big part of pride events. Well I think what they are doing is a bad decision.

[PaulaQ]

It was felt by the group within the Trans/Non Binary Caucus that some drag performance, particularly cis drag, hinges on the social view of gender and making it into a joke, however transgender individuals do not feel as though their gender identity is a joke.

I'm very uncomfortable when trans people start to make arguments about others gender expression / identity that are eerily similar to the arguments that TERFs make against ours - they feel we make a mockery of being a woman. I understand that some people may be uncomfortable or not like this - but this isn't a support group. This isn't a safe space. There will be, presumably, adults, doing adult things, possibly drinking adult beverages, and surrounded by random members of the general public. There is also the matter that some drag performers end up transitioning - I know several who've done just this. So to protect the feelings of trans people, we hurt the feelings of other people who may ultimately come out as trans. This makes no sense, and is just wrong to me.

There is a great deal of privilege in the cisgender male gay community, and most, but not all, drag performers are cis gay men. I can understand asking them to check that a bit - a performer who was openly hostile to the trans community (or other minority groups) shouldn't be a part of such a celebration. But that's very different than what this pride event is doing.

It seems like the way to solve something like this is dialog between the two communities, rather than one excluding the other.

[JamieG]

Did anyone read the statements? They didn't ban drag queen, they banned drag performances.

So basically they say you come, march whatever. They just won't have drag shows. So what? It's their event. Anyone can come, anyone can dress....

Drag queens are all about the performance, without a performance, you don't really have a drag queen. I think most of us realize that they didn't prohibit drag queens from attending; it's not like they are going to ask everyone in a dress, "queen or trans?" However, when you exclude a class of performers based on a stereotype, you are certainly telling a segment of the population they are unwelcome. Wouldn't it infuriate you if they banned transwomen performers just because a group of lesbians finds straight transwomen performers to be offensive? (oh, but of course transwomen can attend, they just can't perform because they might offend someone)?

You are right, it is their event, they can do what they want. But, other people can say how wrong their policy is, and choose not to come. I hope its a miserable failure and they come to their senses next year. I have no problem with prohibiting a performer who has clearly expressed a transphobic message, but painting all drag queens with a broad brush is just wrong, plain and simple. We all need to realize, its not always about us. Live and let live and all that...

[arbon]

and it makes us all look terribly bad in the eyes of the anti LGBT people, who are having a good laugh at how we our discriminating against each other.

[vallerie lacy]

I really don't mind drag queens at all. I admire their desire to be so outrageous. I guess in a way I'm jealous that they are "out there" and I'm at home.

[AngelaYVR]

That alternative event sounds incredibly dull

[suchacutie]

Some group banned from a pride event.....someone doesn't get it!

Sounds like some local individual has a personal agenda.

[Jennifer B]

Just looking at their Facebook page now. (https://www.facebook.com/freeprideglasgow?fref=nf) It seems that they have reversed the decision. This snippet from a lengthy post says, "We made a mistake, and we apologise." which sums it up.

Anyway whilst they sort that out I shall be enjoying watching the Drag Queen Olympics next weekend at the Amsterdam Gay Pride Weekend. Including handbag throwing and the 100 metre sprint in stilettos amongst other things.

[Mayo]

They didn't ban drag queen, they banned drag performances.
Initially (17 July) they banned all drag performances (but not attendees). Then (20 July) they changed it to a ban on drag performances by cis people (allowing trans & non-binary drag performers). Now (as of 22 July) it appears they've reversed the ban entirely.

[Sarah-RT]

Mayo I believe your correct, they have reversed the decision and apologized for being too extreme on the situation.

Sarah x

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Sarah, Political correctness is ruining the whole world.:hugs:

I'm the most un-PC :devil: person that you will ever meet.

[AbigailJordan]

I don't find drag queens at all offensive. One of my favourite nights out to date remains a trip to Funny Girls in Blackpool.

As for the story you mention, the strange thing is that this is the actions of free pride Glasgow, which was set up as an anti-commercialist alternative to the "official" Glasgow Pride organisation. And whilst I can kind of understand that a straight drag queen doesn't generally represent any part of the LGBT spectrum, I still feel that there is a larger overlap with the G part of the community than there is for girls like us.

I also feel that excluding ANYONE from a pride parade is merely more example of the way that certain parts of the community feel a need to self segregate. My question is, if a straight performer, presenting as their genetic/biological gender wished to perform, would they be refused because they were a straight man presenting as a man? Is not support from outside the community just as important, if not even more important than support from within it?

How can a group that marches to raise awareness of difference and teaches tolerance and acceptance of sexuality and gender issues possibly think that refusing drag queens on the basis that they don't represent you properly is a good idea? It goes against everything the community stands for and everything that Pride is supposed to achieve.

[pamela7]

what the glasgow event has done is raise publicity, by injection and retracting controversy. it's an old ploy, and i hope it works ...

[Alexis08]

I just read an article about a swedish GG who works as a drag queen. yes that's right. drag queen, not king. I've known her as DQ for years but was unsure if she was a GG, trans girl or a guy with realistic, fake tits.

But now it turns out that she is indeed a genetic girl.

I wonder how common it is that drag queens are GGs. Do you guys know one or several?

[Lori Kurtz]

GG who works as a drag queen ...

A woman who tries to look like a man who tries to look like a woman? Whew ... that's a new one on me.

[flatlander_48]

Ain't that a Kick in the Head? (Or lower, depending)

DeeAnn

[LilSissyStevie]

They're called Faux Queens

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faux_queen

[Jorja]

How do the event officials know who is trans? Do people who find the style and demeanor of drag queens offensive only think that way if the drag queen is not trans? But first things first: what is trans? We're all together on the definition, right?


Maybe they can set up a TSA like checkpoint where everyone has to show their junk to get in.:brolleyes:


Arrg . . . I was going to ask the exact same question Nicole. Do we have start bringing our "Trans Identity Cards" to events now? Plain stupid, narrow minded and just not right IMHO :facepalm:

Cheers

Isha

For those that don't know or never looked, all Trans people have a T that magically grows into the skin behind the left earlobe as we age. ;)

[flatlander_48]

Rustoleum will fix that. If not, maybe then Bar's StopLeak...

DeeAnn

[TrishaLake]

I don't have any issue with it.....to each their own.

[Brooklyn]

Well of course Queens are offensive... It's what I love most about drag. But a Pride festival without drag performances...? Seems like a day without sunshine: positively shady!

[reinasblack]

Most gay men don't like CD's and transsexuals.
Most drag queens or just gay men and not transsexuals.