Crossdress vs. Transgender

[Angela Marie]

When I first started dressing several years ago I identified as a crossdresser. Over the past year or so my feminine side has become stronger and stronger. At first it was only about the clothes. Then the mannerisms became more and more feminine and finally the realization that my female side was much, much stronger than I had initially realized or wanted to admit. Now I clearly identify as transgender. How many people here have experienced this evolution and does it stop or does our feminine side become increasingly dominant?

[kimdl93]

You realize you're inviting the usual, needless debate between people who include CDing on the transgender spectrum...which is the generally recognized perspective....and those who feel that CDing is something apart.

But let's put that debate aside, because that doesn't really address the underlying question, which I think, is why has your self assessment changed. One could assert that dressing is changing you, that the positive feelings you experience through the act of emulating a woman is rewarding and, therefore, encourages further progression.

Another possible explanation is that this part of you has always been present, but to use your own words, was much stronger than you wanted to admit. Take away the overburden of repression, add positive experiences and many of us have begun to realize possibilities we previously could not allow ourselves to imagine.

[natalie_cheryl]

kim i think just NAILED IT! when i was younger than i am now and first begining to take an honest look at my cross dressing habits i considered myself to be just a cross dresser. but now i realize that yes cross dressers are apparently on the trans spectrum somewhere, and that not only am i trans but if i had it all to do over agian i would have come out of the closet when i came out of the military and transitioned back then. but i love my life the way it currently is and would change anything.

[Belle Cri]

Absolutely - I agree with Kim and Natalie

[msniki48]

Angela,

I believe this is the way most of us start and like Kim said, we come to the realization of a side of us that we could or would not admit to [to me it was due to my generation ] I am TG and my only outlet for now is to dress [ cd ] if my life would allow, I would do more to be as feminine as possible. I believe some of us crossdress BECAUSE we are Transgender ....as opposed to just liking the clothes and feel etc. Nothing wrong with that. Not every cross dresser tries to present as female. just my thoughts.

hugs

niki

[Samantha2015]

Given what others have said I feel I'm on the bottom steps of the CD/TG ladder.
I certainly like dressing up but I've never felt I was born into the wrong body.
Don't think I'd want to be femme 24/7. Presenting male 98% of the time is
normal for me, a little bit of Samantha goes a long way for me. Will my feelings
change in the future toward being more femme? Who knows? I sure don't.
I'm not going to worry about it, I'm content for now.

[Angela Marie]

Another possible explanation is that this part of you has always been present, but to use your own words, was much stronger than you wanted to admit. Take away the overburden of repression, add positive experiences and many of us have begun to realize possibilities we previously could not allow ourselves to imagine.[/QUOTE]

I think you are absolutely right and the fact that I have become more comfortable with it, combined with the positive reinforcement I have received from others especially GG's, has allowed me to truly understand myself. Thanks to all of you for the great feedback.

[Pat]

I certainly like dressing up but I've never felt I was born into the wrong body.

Transgender doesn't mean that. That's more transsexual.

Transgender just describes not being a 100% match to one gender. I think most of us meet that criterion. Because most of us come to this with no experience and no education on what crossdressing is all about, we all start off "just dressing" without a strong sense of what's driving us internally. There seems to be a point where we saturate on the just dressing part and start to think about why and that's when we tend to move into acknowledging we're transgender. Some find they go past that into the transsexual, but some (most?) are where they belong as simply transgender.

The important thing is that we're always transgender -- it doesn't stop when we go back to wearing male clothes. The reason we get twitchy when we dress male for too long is that we need to get back to that transgender place in our heads and at first we do that by changing clothes. And we feel good because we're not telling the "male lie" any more. That's when people start describing a need to present female as a "survival" behavior. But over time we learn that neither male nor female presentation is The Truth for us. We pull away from the sense that there's a "male self" and a "female self" and discover that there's just one person inside us that has elements of both male and female. That's when people start saying they're the same person no matter how they're presenting.

I think that's a normal progression that many of us have gone through and when you have you can get to a point where presentation is no longer a top priority. It's enjoyable to switch between them but it's not something we have to do for survival.

All just opinion, of course.

[Mayo]

Transgender just describes not being a 100% match to one gender. I think most of us meet that criterion. Because most of us come to this with no experience and no education on what crossdressing is all about, we all start off "just dressing" without a strong sense of what's driving us internally. There seems to be a point where we saturate on the just dressing part and start to think about why and that's when we tend to move into acknowledging we're transgender. Some find they go past that into the transsexual, but some (most?) are where they belong as simply transgender.
I am now tentatively considering myself TG in the 'umbrella' sense - as a somewhat gender-queer/gender-variant male - and am crossdressing as a means to explore that aspect of my identity. So for me the realization that I may be TG, and that my psyche has a feminine component to it, came before I started CD rather than after. While I realize there are many different motives for dressing, CD for me personally is a part of (and an expression of) my developing non-binary gender identity, not something unrelated to it.

Now, having unlocked that door I don't know where it's going to take me, and whether or not it will eventually become something I'll need to do for 'survival' is still an open (and scary! :sad:) question for me.

[Krisi]

Crossdressing does not cause one to eventually become transgender, transsexual, or transanything. There are many males who crossdress their entire lives without becoming anything but crossdressers.

If you eventually identify as something more than a crossdresser, that's fine but spreading the rumor that crossdressing leads to wanting to become a woman is doing the crossdressers no favor. It's an all to common assumption.

[Tina_gm]

In late 2012, I confessed to my wife that I had desires to CD, and always had them. I had very very rarely indulged my desires, but was beginning to sneak into her stuff more and more. fast forward a couple of months and I found myself a very reputable gender therapist. He fairly quickly determined that I was not TS, although in time I may find myself more feminine dominated, and that still does not make one TS. At that time, he went over with both my wife and I that I was in the transgender spectrum. The definition then given by this therapist, who works for a very reputable LGBT clinic which covers all letters fairly equally by the way.... was that ANY desire or willful act that crosses the normal gender boundaries (in other words, not just dressing) is transgenderism, and makes one transgender, or at least in the TG specturm.

FF to 2015.... Caitlyn Jenner, and a few others who have come out and the media describes TG what we on this board describe TS. In the media at least, anything short of someone who fully identifies opposite of their birth gender is not TG. CJ herself in describing herself as TG, and the difference between CDers, who she said are just that and not TG... It only added to the media description of TG.

Personally, I do not really care. If Transvestite was still an acceptable term, I wouldn't really care. Words and terms to me are not all that relevant, because they are constantly changing by the thought police and the PC minded. I find it funny that they will literally come up with terms and definitions, then consider those which they came up with to be offensive.... The LGBT community at one point heralded Bill Clinton with the DADT policy in the armed forces.... They did not seem to mind his backing of the defense of marriage act..... Oh how times change.

While I do not care what the term is, I do find crossdresser to be a bit limiting. CDers (most) have a real feminine side, or femininity that transcends just dressing in women's clothing. They do not identify internally as women, or only or completely, but for a majority of CDers, it is more than just dressing. Crossdressing is an act. We can be crossdressers, but there is a reason for it. There is a condition we have in our brains that desires it. While all the attention recently is good, I do think though that the CDers are getting somewhat lost in the shuffle. People will now likely see a CDer, or know of one and will assume that they only identify opposite of their birth gender. Two steps forward, one step back I guess. TG as an umbrella term seems to work good, and within that, people can identify where they are as TGers.

[Samantha2015]

Jennie, thanks for the clarification. I'm still ignorant on all the deep thinking about all this.
I always thought CD-TG-TS were 3 totally different stages/phases/conditions ??
I don't even know what to call them.

[Dianne S]

I think quite a few people who transition start out thinking they're crossdressers. That was definitely my experience.

The converse, of course, is not true. Most people who start out thinking they're crossdressers really are and they don't transition. I also think it's becoming less common nowadays because transgender topics are spoken about more, so young people are quicker to identify themselves as wanting to transition that people of my generation were.

[Tina_gm]

Samantha, the way I see it, CDing is really just a description of the verb of what a majority of TG people do. A majority of TS will CD until they transition. (many of them will feel that wearing the clothes of their birth gender is CDing, for them) Which is why CD is a bit of a limiting term to me. I shave my body because I do not like my body hair and prefer to feel my skin without the hair. And I grow my nails longer than most guys.... That is not CDing. The thought police and the PC crowd have kicked me out of the TG club, so why do I do these things?

[stefan37]

I might get flamed for this. Those that crossdress and wish to present as female even in their own closet are TG to some extent. If it was only about clothes they wouldn't have a need or desire to wear forms, or use female names. There are and have been some members here that dress and use their male names, wear beards, and for them it's only about the clothes. The issue is because o marital, societal pressures and male socializations many are in denial. Because of those pressures those in denial will not be honest with themselves and admit they are TG. To be clear I don't equate TG with TS. One can be TG without being TS.

[Pat]

Samantha, the way I see it, CDing is really just a description of the verb of what a majority of TG people do.

I can't speak to majorities, but I believe under the current thinking all CDs are TG but not all TG folk CD. TG is the big umbrella, CD is one of the groups sheltering there. Of course there are still people who feel that they are not TG even when they crossdress -- I can't tell someone else what they feel, but I'm mystified as to how you could class yourself a cisgender male yet still have a compulsion to crossdress. I expect it's just a failure to communicate.

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner, my recollection is when she did the interview her team released a pretty complete press kit specifically mentioning that not all transgender people choose to transition. If the press (or some of it) chose to ignore that you can't blame her. She also released very detailed guidance that at the time of the interview her preferred pronouns were "he/him." After the Vanity Fair cover that seems to have changed, though I haven't seen an update press kit get released.

[Krisi]

I'm not going to "flame" you. but I'm not going to agree with you either. None of us know exactly why we do what we do because the human mind is so complex and there is no way to test it. It's not like figuring out the reason the light won't light is because the circuit breaker is tripped.

Sometimes people over think things. It's possible for a crossdresser to be just that, a crossdresser. Not "TG", not "TS", and not "TAnything". Liking to imitate a female for a few hours can be just that, nothing more.

[Tina_gm]

To Jenni-cd, not sure if you were meaning you generically, in your response to my post, but I do not classify myself as a cis-gender male. Just want to clarify this in case. I am not blaming CJ entirely for what the media is now describing as TG, and among most of us, TG is still the umbrella term. I do wonder though about how some who are CDers and do not identify as female are going to be misunderstood as to why they are CDing. I do agree that not everyone who is TG does CD. There can be, although rare, someone who CD's who is not TG, and not just because of a dare or lark, I suppose occasionally someone got dared or whatever, saw how good it worked for them and perhaps entertain even though they really do not feel it inside? I sometimes wonder about some of the drag queens, how TG they really are.... I know most are probably, but I can imagine that some really are not TG.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I agree with jenny and gendermutt quite a bit. In my opinion transgender is an umbrella term in which crossdressers and transsexuals both fall under. Transsexuals i believe are the opposite of non transgender people, a ts woman is completely a woman, there are no mixed feelings (no bones about it) so to speak. The rest of us fall in between these two poles at varying degrees. Cds have a feminine aspect to our personality, some stronger than others that other men dont have and dressing is part of how we express that. The only cds that i dont think fall under the tg umbrella are drag queens and those who only dress on halloween etc just for the heck of it.

Oh and good point gendermutt, im sure there are many drag queens who are tg, sexuality doesnt prevent that.

[Isabella Ross]

To answer the OP's question: Angela, yes, the feelings have intensified as a I get older.

But the post also subtly reintroduces the entire CD vs. TG debate. I'm completely in agreement with Jasmine and Gendermutt and others who have commented.

THE BOTTOM LINE: I crossdress because I am transgendered. Perhaps, like Samantha, I'm only mildly transgendered compared to some who live full-time or close to full-time. But I'm transgendered. And proud of it. Is there something wrong with this term that causes some of us to reject it against all common sense? The only problem with the term is that the media and thus the general public have some confusion, in terms of thinking that TG automatically means that transitioning is imminent...something that, for the vast majority of us, is not even remotely in the cards.

[cheryl reeves]

there are times i feel like i dont fit any label,for when im in male mode i feel crossdressed for when im in fem mode i feel like im crossdressed. i know im ts but ts what mtf or ftm all these labels get confusing for some of us dont fit anywhere. long ago i knew i was ts but preferred transvestite as my label then the internet came along and dumped into the cd group,now 15 yrs later dropped into the tg umbrella and still dont fit anywhere. i love dressing in my dresses as well as my mens shorts and pants,i love growing a mustache,i also like it when im clean shaven. i keep my legs shaved though for the hair grows in patches and never looked good..so what good is labels when you dont fit into them,its like forcing a square peg in a round hole,doesnt work unless you get a sledge hammer to force it to fit..i guess if i had to have a label it would be hermophidite for im both male and female and enjoy both sides of who i am.

[Stephanie47]

Before coming to this site I never heard the term "transgender" applied to cross dressing. Even now, if you asked the average person in the street, what the term "transgender" means, they will probably answer it refer to a person changing from one sex to the other. You may argue terminology until the cows come home. I enjoy wearing women's clothing and have absolutely no desire become a woman. I am totally comfortable being a man.

When I was a teenager I started dabbling in my mother's lingerie draw. It progressed to wearing undergarments (panty, hosiery, girdle, bra, slip) and dresses. I felt absolute revulsion which was due to societal viewpoint of cross dressing men. We were labeled "queers, faggots, fruits" and were subject to physical violence. And, if you were a church goer what you heard from the pulpit was nothing less than eternal damnation. So, the end result was suppression of the desire. Over the years I found that I was not a homosexual or bisexual. I just enjoyed wearing women's clothing for some unknown reason. With time came self acceptance. Of course, that did not mean everything was bliss. My wife and I are in a DADT marriage, but, she is not judgmental anymore. That is her evolution of cross dressing. She realizes her man is still there for her.

I suspect many cross dressers experience euphoria when there is more opportunity to dress and there is self acceptance. I had that feeling when I retired and my wife continued to work. I had a lot of time to be Stephanie. After awhile those feelings dissipated. I will go through the entire summer without dressing. It does not cause me any angst. I have plenty of activities and responsibilities as a man to do. I enjoy being a man.

Personally, I think there is a very small minority of men who will transition to being a woman.

[Ceera]

I think each of us has to come to our own understanding of who we are and why we do what we do. And that is something that may change and evolve over time.

It took me three or four years from my first sexual experiences (with both genders) to accept that I was bisexual. But I couldn't openly acknowledge that fact because I knew my dad was homophobic and couldn't accept it. So I suppressed that side of me for over 40 years, and very few people knew. I tried to live a straight and monogamous life, and was honest to my wife about my inclinations. She knew that while I preferred women, I also felt some attraction to males - but that regardless of that I was willing to remain monogamous with her. After my father and then my wife both died, I ceased trying to hide that part of myself, and came out to my daughter about being Bi and also about wanting to cross dress. She accepted me fully.

When I started cross dressing, I knew my personality had a strong feminine aspect. I'd lived with that for most of my life, but just hadn't allowed it to have much open expression in my life. After my father died, I started experimenting with underdressing, but held it to no more than that, because while my wife accepted that I wanted to wear panties, she was reluctant for me to do more in that regard. After she also died, the CD activity was another thing I came out to my daughter about, and she also accepted that fully.

So I bought a closet full of clothes, learned to do my makeup and change my voice, and I started going to a local club en-femme once a week...

I had no intention of transitioning then, and I still don't. I'd done on-line evaluations that clearly indicated I wasn't transsexual, did not have gender dysphoria, and that I had no serious need to alter my body. I still had a hard time explaining, even to myself, why I wanted to become female and go nightclubbing. I just did. I wasn't particularly looking to 'hook up' with anyone of either gender or any particular orientation for an intimate evening or future dates. It might happen, and occasionally has, but an intimate encounter wasn't my goal. I was going to a gay club because it seemed a safer place for me to 'be a woman'. But mostly I just wanted to dance, socialize, and be seen and appreciated. And at the time I didn't feel either the term transgender or transsexual applied to me. If asked, I identified as a bisexual male who occasionally cross dressed.

Over the past year and a half I have come to accept that 'Transgender' does apply to me as well. I'm much less certain that transsexual does, because to me that still implies some dissatisfaction with birth gender and a desire to alter one's self to become the other gender.

For now, cross dressing is enough for me. I can present well as a woman and have fun interacting with both genders in that mode. I'm hoping to expand how much of my time is spent en-femme, and to get out more often and to more places as a woman. Yet I still doubt that will encompass more than half of my life. Part of me thinks it would be great to have breasts, but I can't quite reconcile that with still desiring to spend most of my time in male mode. I'd love to have a full head of feminine length hair, but I can do well enough with wigs, and I doubt anything short of HRT would ever eliminate my male pattern baldness. I keep my face and body clean shaven now, and will probably get my ears pierced within the next year... Will I change my body beyond that? I doubt it.

But I may change my mind. That's a girl's prerogative, isn't it? :D

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I believe that we all end up defaulting to our true nature..
for many cd's that wearing female clothes, underdressing, etc... in or out of the house is just a circumstance driven by all kinds of external factors...

for other people there is an identity part that if left unchecked can become a crisis.... in my experience denying your fundamental gender identity is unsustainable and leads to suffering.
this is regardless of how you identified in the past, and whether you went out all the time or stayed in the closet....

so if you are finding yourself "feeling" you are gender fluid or even ts, its likely you are... cd's do not have these feelings except in a very cursory way or perhaps as a fantasy, and i bet that the reason you id'd as "just cd" is that because you simply hadn't learned enough about yourself...maybe you coped by dressing and compartmentalizing...maybe you actively lied to yourself or just pushed the whole thing out of your mind, and maybe you just never touched that third rail and triggered all the gender thoughts...it doesn't matter...once they are there, they are there...you can't fight mother nature

time and energy spent fighting your nature is ultimately wasted and especiallly for transsexuals the consequences can be dire, the gender dysphoria can be incredibly crippling and destroy all quality of life.. realizing you are and have always been a woman at age 30 or 40 or 50 is pretty darn intense and makes you think things that are not good

the answer to me is to try to not think so much, and act. Let your nature inform you and do what you think is right....nobody is perfect and its a minefield of learning and other issues that can include shame, stigma, entrenched thinking, money issues, marriage issues, etc etc....at a minimum give yourself permission to explore who you are...you only get one life...

if you learn about and stay true to your nature, it can all work out regardless of whether you are a cd, a cd with a feminine side tg, or a transsexual...by acting on thoughts and feelings within reason, you can really learn about yourself.

[pamela7]

now we know that only society defines male/female behaviour/clothing (outside of the obvious biological roles in procreation and breastfeeding), i can only really support the idea that the CD I do is indeed female, and probably therefore transgender.

the clear difference i hear from lifelong TS is that they know they are women in male bodies, prior to surgery. So ... what if there's a demographic who don't know their gender cos they did not think to wonder ...?

[Confucius]

Society seems to classify gender into either male or female, with no other options. Nonetheless, science may allow for something more of a spectrum between the two genders. When researchers study the brain's neural network in action (using instruments like the MRT), they can easily see distinct differences between the male brain, and the female brain. However, when these researchers do the same tests with the brains of transgenders they find the neural networks are somehow between male and female.

I believe that we crossdress simply because it is the way our brain is hardwired. Our brains are hardwired to interpret crossdresssing as actual contact with a female, and it then releases the neurotransmitters that produce the sensations we love. And our neural networks make us all unique. Some of us are content to be a man-in-a-dress, while others need to pass as a woman, and still others find they need to transition. In every case, we want to be authentically ourselves.

[ReineD]

But let's put that debate aside, because that doesn't really address the underlying question, which I think, is why has your self assessment changed. One could assert that dressing is changing you, that the positive feelings you experience through the act of emulating a woman is rewarding and, therefore, encourages further progression.

Another possible explanation is that this part of you has always been present, but to use your own words, was much stronger than you wanted to admit. Take away the overburden of repression, add positive experiences and many of us have begun to realize possibilities we previously could not allow ourselves to imagine.

This! :)

I'd like to add to the first paragraph that in my observations, the degree to which any person experiences any reward mechanisms varies as it is a function of individual physical makeup. For example, some people get a lot more pleasure out of eating than others and these people might be apt to indulge more than a person who eats predominately for sustenance. Also if a person's environment somehow prohibits the undue gaining of weight (i.e. they want to project a certain image, or they need to if for example they are a public personality) they will be more motivated to control their sweet or savory tooth, whereas if they don't have external motivators to control it, they won't.

It also appears as if the more a person's dressing is pleasurable to them (degree of dopamine release?), the likelier they are to want to continue to do this more. So in the case of someone who is not TS (who does not experience clinical impairment over having a male body and male characteristics), is this a case of evolution, or personal preference.

As to identifying as a CD vs. TG (if someone is not TS), I should think this depends on someone's own personal definitions. Some members here prefer to dress full time when they can, yet they still identify as male (thus CD), while other people prefer to use the term TG when they experience the same internal benefits as someone who identifies as CD. I also think that for a significant number of people, the sexual aspect of the CDing diminishes with time and with age, although libido is also highly individualistic.

[Mayo]

now we know that only society defines male/female behaviour/clothing (outside of the obvious biological roles in procreation and breastfeeding), i can only really support the idea that the CD I do is indeed female, and probably therefore transgender.
That may be true for you, but it doesn't necessarily apply to other CDs (I assume you weren't speaking for everyone else :) ).

As I understand it, the TG 'umbrella' covers anybody who - basically - engages in behaviour (including dress) that is not gender-typical, i.e. that does not fit into the usual 'boxes' to which our society assigns each sex. In this very broad sense CDs are TG by definition. However, a more specific sense (what most people think TG means) seems to be 'having a feminine psyche' or 'feeling female' or 'being trapped in a woman's body' (or similar tropes), often accompanied by a desire to transition socially and (sometimes) physically and live full-time as the opposite sex (what this board calls TS).

I can, however, conceive of a man who simply enjoys wearing women's clothing because he likes the styles and colours, or finds them more comfortable, or is sexually aroused by them (TV), without having any feelings whatsoever of being 'female'. To me, that particular CD subgroup falls partly outside the umbrella because they have no inner experience of being other-gendered but are simply bucking current social norms. As an analogy, we wouldn't (these days) consider men who get manicures or who wear their hair long to be 'less than male' (or not usually, except perhaps by homophobes or radical social conservatives).

That's my personal take on how CD does (and sometimes doesn't) fall under the TG umbrella, but it does boil down to exactly how one chooses to define TG.

[Saikotsu]

First post in quite a while, but here goes.
As far as I'm concerned, I identify as transgender. More specifically as Gender fluid. My internal identity fluctuates throughout the day. 95% of the time I feel mixed and the ratio of female to male varies. When I can, I dress to match that ratio. If I'm more female than male, my wardrobe choices reflect that. Likewise if I'm more male than female. For me, my clothing choices are a means of expressing my internal identity. Thus, I don't consider it crossdressing. I simply wear what is appropriate for my internal gender.

That said, to an external viewer, that might well mean I am a man in women's clothes. Most people would define that as crossdressing. I for one dislike that label because I'm not dressing as the "opposite" gender from my point of view.

It took me a while to figure out why I disliked the label "crossdresser" so much. It wasn't until a couple of months ago that I figured out why. For me, it was always about expressing my internal gender. So I guess in answer to the original prompt, I struggled to find a definition for myself that I liked, and eventually I settled on transgender

[NicoleScott]

We toss around terms like TG hoping everybody who reads it defines it as was meant. Hardly. There are some who don't think CDers belong under the TG umbrella, those who are TS who don't want to be considered under the TG umbrella, and those who think TG is something other than the umbrella. It gets worse. A prefix has been turned into a noun - trans. That ought to include transvestites (CDers), transsexuals, and transgenders, whatever that is. If not the umbrella term, not CD, not TS, what is TG? No wonder those who are none-of-the-above can't sort it out.

[Belle Cri]

I'm not sniping at anyone, but I find these endless definitional debates, well, odd and very frustrating. If the point of the journey is to define oneself, one's sexuality, and one's peace and place of sanity, why clutter all this with endless definitional salami slices that would drive a seasoned lawyer to madness?

To the OP, I think you are in a perfectly balanced place given what you want. If you are content, then case closed.

[Sandie70]

I think you either identify as a woman inside or you don't. Since I don't seem to have that overriding feeling that I'm in the wrong body, I can't call myself transgendered. Not to say this couldn't happen. Certainly, as I spend more and more time dressed, I am becoming more and more feminine is many ways. My desire to present as female is becoming stronger. Some day, will I wake up and find myself with that feeling inside that so many speak of - that I am truly a woman in a man's body? I don't know. If that happens I probably won't mind it... I already have dreams of what it would be like to dress full time. If that is part of the process to identifying my gender as female, then so be it.

Whatever happens, I am not going to worry about it.

[Mayo]

I'm not sniping at anyone, but I find these endless definitional debates, well, odd and very frustrating. If the point of the journey is to define oneself, one's sexuality, and one's peace and place of sanity, why clutter all this with endless definitional salami slices that would drive a seasoned lawyer to madness?

To the OP, I think you are in a perfectly balanced place given what you want. If you are content, then case closed.
I believe that humans in general have a need to generalize - partly as a way of saving mental effort but also to infer the qualities of things that resemble each other. For some people, knowing their 'place' in the world gives them security, or at least self-knowledge. It's also a short-hand way of communicating something about oneself to others. Sometimes this works well and other times it doesn't (stereotyping, in-groups vs out-groups), but our brains are stuck with it and we need to make special effort to avoid doing it.

Certainly one can be happy with one's own understanding of self even if others aren't. Too bad for them, then. :)

[Krisi]

Where are all the folks who insist there should be no labels?

[Samantha_Smile]

Transgender, crossdresser, transexuals, transvestites....
Whatever you can think of, they're all labels, and labels are contextual in application.
I don't see why people get offended.
When I go out with with my friends, I'm "the tall one". But if I hung out with a basket
ball team I'd be "the short white guy that cant jump...LOLZ"

Slightly tangented, but I just think people need to keep in mind that labels, depending
on your persepective, will vary in all ways.
Just because someone calls you by a 'label', may not mean to cause offence, but they
might just not know any better.
I think if you start punishing ignorance alongside hate, then we, will never take
acceptance like we deserve (if we aren't hurting anyone).
Ignorant terms an belief systems based on pure lack of insight, do not mean a person
disrespects or hates you.
An ignorant opinion can be changed given a chance to enlighten people that
"What you learned as an outsider looking at us was not the whole story" (The actual response would be much longer given the chance).
Getting mad about the labels and worrying about definitions... It wont help, why not just
speak out when you hear something incorrect and you have the oportunity.
It's not political correctness, it's just re-educating those who you CAN re-educate.
Just make sure you choose wisely, and dont give away too much info, just enough to
make them think and see if they change.

Does what people classify me as bother me in anyway?
If it isn't offensive to me, you can call me what you like.

[Belle Cri]

That was very nicely put.

[CynthiaD]

I knew I was transgendered before I ever joined this forum. (By transgendered, I mean that I consider myself female, even though my outward appearance is male.) My journey since joining has been one of greater acceptance of myself rather than moving along the TG spectrum. I've always been very interested in transitioning, but I've never felt strongly enough about it to take any steps in that direction. I don't hate my body, or feel that I was born into "the wrong" body. Yes, I would love to have real breasts and so forth, but it's not something I need. Mostly I feel that being transgendered is a natural part of the human condition, and not something that needs to be cured.

[Eryn]

...How many people here have experienced this evolution and does it stop or does our feminine side become increasingly dominant?

I think that your experience is fairly common with TG people. When we first seriously examine our feelings it is easiest to rationalize them in terms of being a CDer. Later we learn more about transgenderism and ourselves and find that we happen to be at a point further along the spectrum than we thought. It's a natural progression.

[Krisi]

"why not just speak out when you hear something incorrect and you have the opportunity."

Well, what if you are the one who is incorrect?

[Dianne S]

Where are all the folks who insist there should be no labels?

We're humans. We've evolved to categorize; that's how we deal with the world's complexity.

Now to weigh in: A couple of years ago, I would have considered "transgender" to include all people who display any sort of gender-variance at all, all the way from part-time crossdressers to stealth transitioners.

Lately, though, I think "transgender" has narrowed in meaning to be specifically those who do, want to, or are likely to transition. So we need a new all-encompassing term. I would say "gender variant" is reasonable to act as the new umbrella term.

[Badwolf]

I think the term TG and TS are also intimidating if you don't see yourself transitioning. A lot of it does tend to be used in clinical settings and aren't really designed for people who identify more as a CD.

By many definitions we are all TG here, something I only came to admit somewhat later. I still pick and choose when I let that term apply to me since I like my male side, and transitioning is not really what I want.

And the definition that is most inclusive is the one currently in the oxford dictionary:

"Denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender:"

I'd bet that any dictionary 20+ years ago when many of us defined ourselves as CDers that the definition for TG was a bit more aligned with TS which is why we formed a CD identity.

[Belle Cri]

Ugh I hate to be testy on this, but I lump everything into "LOC" - left of center. I really don't care about the infinite tribal subdivisions within the various communities. I understand why it occurs, but, really, I'm just too old at this point. So I just say Left of Center. You can be straight, bi, gay, bent, TG,TV - alphabet soup for all I care unless, and a big unless, we have invited you into our bed - then just be honest for Pete's sake.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Angela, I'm just a guy that loves to dress and look pretty, then go back being Mr. Drab having the best of both worlds.

[Robin414]

Good question Angela, IMHO given the fact that T naturally decreases with age and IF you have some 'predisposition for being a fan of the feminine condition' (medically identifiable or otherwise) I think the feminine side does become more dominant. Sorry to sound cliche but if there's a chic trapped in there and T is the lock on the cel door...it's going to fail eventually 😩

[Belle Cri]

That is very interesting. I had not considered that.

[Adriana Moretti]

I am REALLY starting to not like the word crossdresser ( no offense to the gals here at all, heck I am one )....but it's almost embarassing...for this reason...
(Link to Twitter hashtag/crossdresser removed)

that does not represent me, or most of you....thats why I cant stand that word anymore thank you twitter. ok...rant over

[St. Eve]

wow, I so much appreciate this whole discussion. I was a closeted CD until I was 24. At 24 I came out to my wife with the not very useful "surprise, here I am dressed" method. Not a good choice for anyone who is considering it!!

After a very short discussion, I went back into the closet (literally and figuratively - my "closet" and her clothes closet.) Fifteen more years led me eventually to recovery for compulsive masturbation, fantasy, and dependency relationship where I gave up my clothes and got sexually sober.

Six and a half years later, today, I am in the process of bringing back my dressing - slowly, consciously, in therapy with a plan, and with the knowledge of my closest family of choice - including my spouse. I am hoping by the time I turn 50 (13 months) I can be at peace with my CD and gender issues and have a community of loved ones who accept who I am and how I express myself in the world.

I am very grateful for every one of you who has been willing to walk the path in front of me.

peace, St. Eve

[PaulaQ]

Now I clearly identify as transgender. How many people here have experienced this evolution and does it stop or does our feminine side become increasingly dominant?

My experience is that once you've come out to yourself, there is a very good chance that this may become pretty overwhelming and unstoppable for you. At the very least, it may become inevitable.

[Stephanie47]

And, what do you think pops up when you put "transsexual" into a search engine? That's not pretty either. Over the years I have found when talking to anyone on any subject it is best to avoid trying to describe anything with one word. It is best to describe what you mean without a label attached to it.



I am REALLY starting to not like the word crossdresser ( no offense to the gals here at all, heck I am one )....but it's almost embarassing...for this reason...
(Link to Twitter hashtag/crossdresser removed)

that does not represent me, or most of you....thats why I cant stand that word anymore thank you twitter. ok...rant over

If you're going to recommend to your wife do research cross dressing on the Internet, I've always recommended leading her to reputable sites.

[Marcelle]

Where are all the folks who insist there should be no labels?

Cute . . . :) Okay I'll bite. I get why people want labels and heck I use them to educate because to be honest . . . people need definitions to understand . . . "Oh, I see you are a (fill in the blank)". However IMHO, the important thing is "if you are happy being who you need to be, who really cares what you call yourself" and trying to pigeon hole a person into a narrowly defined concept well just saying . . . seems kind of pointless. Why? Because as soon as we agree on a term to describe some aspect of doing what we do, somebody comes along and says "Hey, that doesn't describe me or you don't fit in that group . . . go find another word" . . . Yup pointless.

Being happy accepting yourself is a good thing, how you define yourself internally brings order to that happiness but what you call yourself is truly irrelevant . . . again IMO.

Now to the OP and yes, I will be talking some labels in order to help define my response :battingeyelashes:

Hi Angela,

When I started out I considered myself a cross dresser because to be honest, it was the only term I knew. As I read here and learned of the myriad of terms people used, I clung to my "maleness" (go read my past posts . . . it is obvious) because I was not ready to truly let go and embrace the fact that it was more than just dressing. Fast forward a year and a bit and I have come to accept that sometimes I identify as a man and sometimes I identify as a woman and depending on what zone I am in, I present for the target gender (man/woman). Does that make me TG, TS, CD, gender fluid, gender variant or whatnot? I really don't know. The one certainty I can respond to is that for the first time in a very, very long time . . . I am truly happy and that is what is important. :)

Cheers

Isha

[Krisi]

That was my point. I'm glad you picked up on that.

I don't like it when a total stranger tries to pin a label on me that I don't identify with. We have labels and we need labels but labels do no good when people don't agree on what the labels mean.

[Pat]

I'm not going to "flame" you. but I'm not going to agree with you either.

Perfectly fine. I appreciate your restraint. As I said, I'm not going to try and tell you what you feel -- only you know that and I respect that.


To Jenni-cd, not sure if you were meaning you generically, in your response to my post, but I do not classify myself as a cis-gender male.

Hi gendermutt -- no I wasn't specifically responding to you (or Krisi) though I was reacting to everything everyone had to say.

My sense is that there's this perfectly serviceable term, transgender, which provides a needed abstraction under which to group all the different non-binary gender issues. We shouldn't throw that out.

If I was reading the tea leaves, I believe in a future I won't live to see we'll recognize CD/TV/crossdressing as a behavior and not an identity. Some word will come into vogue that carries the sense of the current "genderqueer" which means someone who chooses present in a way not aligned to their birth gender and that will be the happy home of 99% of what we call crossdressers now -- they're presenting in a non-traditional way and their choice of a way to do that is the behavior of crossdressing.

Admittedly, there are cases where someone might crossdress and not be expressing transgender issues -- actors, for example. I think someone mentioned hazing rituals, etc. Those cases are somewhat involuntary and the crossdressing isn't a case of self-expression in itself. In our case it's voluntary and we're clearly expressing something about ourselves. I think that fits in the general definition of transgender, but if you don't that's OK. I just think that the problem has more to do with a fundamental communications problem (i.e our definitions of transgender don't align.)

Are words and labels important? Yes, I think that's pretty demonstrable. If you go into the store for a ham sandwich and the guy gives you a chainsaw because you can't agree on terms, that's an issue. But does it have an effect on you if someone else thinks you're using the wrong label? No. It's all theory. We discuss it because we're interested in ourselves and we're trying to understand ourselves and perhaps by hearing what others say we will have an insight. That's all.

[Dianne S]

Maybe this is heretical, but I don't think labels are necessarily bad, even if we disagree about their meanings.

The important thing to keep in mind is that labels are a gross simplification, useful for certain purposes. And any given person is certainly a lot more than just a collection of "labels".

I'm transgender. That's a label I happily accept. But that does not define my entire existence. I also have the labels "parent", "frustrated amateur musician", "business owner", "software developer", "HR manager", "columnist", etc. All of these labels are very useful to illuminate particular facets of who I am.

The trouble comes when people apply labels and then don't see beyond the label. Some people would categorize me as "mentally ill" or "sinner" and refuse to see beyond that label. They would simply negate every other aspect of my being and that's why we react strongly against labelling.

So anyway, I would label a crossdresser as "transgender" because I believe crossdressers are somewhere on the TG spectrum. I wouldn't for a moment imagine that the label describes their entire personalities or that they necessarily even agree with it... it's just a label for my convenience and not a judgement about anyone.

[Katey888]

I don't think its heretical to suggest that grouping people (versus labelling) is important - I think you've got it right Dianne... :)

Most of us are happy to accept consensual categorisation that may be earned or aspired to: teacher; surgeon; engineer; father; footballer; moderator (threw that in for a laugh... :heehee:) etc.

Whether we like it or not, society at large categorises us in all sorts of ways, independent of our agreement: employed; retired; expatriate; caucasian; blonde; male and female... etc.

And whether we like it or not (or care), other folk will apply judgments too: short; fat; ugly; stupid; pikey; gopping; sexy; etc.

The first two categories matter - to a degree - the third one really shouldn't, although to some extent it often does... but we have the power to get around that: we just ignore it. :)

Like it or not, you will be categorised in some way, and if the accepted norm is that CDers are within the TG world, well fluff up a cushion and get comfy! It probably doesn't matter that much to those who disagree in the largely closeted CD world anyway.

To address Angela's OP: does this get stronger for everyone? Obviously not, or we'd all transition, wouldn't we? And that doesn't happen. It's different for everyone - and of course we all have periods of growth and recession (to borrow a phrase) but the majority of CDers will reach some plateau... as most here seem to have done. But don't discount those that stop altogether - just because we don't see many here (a very few) doesn't mean they don't exist or are more numerous. I sometimes get the feeling that those who are affected by permanent desires would like to believe that everyone else feels the same, because in some ways it's irritating to think that some folk may be able to drop this and go back to 'normal' life... :thinking:

Katey x

[Krisi]

If anyone thinks names or labels are unimportant and shouldn't mater, I suggest that you consider the succession of names the people now known in the politically correct world as "African Americans" have been called.

[Barbara Jo]

Since this can of worms has been opened.......;)

It has sometimes been said that how far someone takes their CD and /or transition is often dependent on the opportunities that their life presents to them

Add to that, as one gets older they often get the feeling that life is passing them by and their TG activities get even stronger ..... feeling it's now or never.

[Lorileah]

Krisi, I get your point but your analogy is off. Things evolve, things change. What causes that change can be many things. In your example, the change was developed from within the community. You statement "African-American" even has controversy within that community since most were never in Africa and/or there are Caucasians in Africa (I know several) who are now US Citizens. Most of the word no longer being used are because others used them disparagingly.

This keeps popping up. Names and labels and are you this or that. It always ends badly. If you want to be called something, let those around you know. If you don't want to be called something, same deal. Personally I have a label or title (other than Ice Queen) that I use proudly. We never agree here what the group is called. It would be nice if we did because then maybe we could solve other issues within our community.

[Krisi]

Personally, I agree with your comments on the term "African American", but political correctness has surpassed common sense, at least in the USA.

When I was working, I worked with a (Caucasian) lady who had been in the peace corps in Africa. One day in a conversation she mentioned that her son had been born in Africa. Being the quick witted troublemaker that I sometimes am, I said "So he's African American, right?" Boy did she get upset.

[NicoleScott]

Angela, I'm afraid your question was derailed by using those contentious terms (CD, TG....). So I will give it a try without using those terms. At first you just liked to wear the clothing, but over time you have experienced increasing femininity, as expressed not just by wearing the clothes but through mannerisms, interests, etc. Has your femininity evolved or have you increasingly embraced what was always there?

[pamela7]

So, back to the OP then.
Until you have tried something you don't know if you will like it.
Underdressing->overdressing->makeup->wig->shaving the body->more clothing varirety->going out->learning femme behaviours->being treated as a female ... where does it end?

It's gradual and unexpected, because pleasure is pleasure!

[Krisi]

For most of us it "ends" at some point. That's not to say you no longer do it, that's to say that many of us are satisfied to underdress, some are satisfied to just wear the clothes, some of us wear the clothes plus breast forms, wigs and other padding. Some are satisfied doing this at home, others feel the need to go out in public and hopefully be viewed and treated as women. Some folks eventually decide to actually live their lives full time as females, with or without surgery to alter their bodies to suit their minds.

Putting on a pair of women's panties does not necessarily lead to surgery and life as a female.

[sometimes_miss]

Does it become increasingly dominant. That would really depend on why you feel the desire to dress and behave as a female. The whole concept that your 'female side' is becoming stronger is incorrect; it's all YOU. Perhaps you have been suppressing the desire to dress and behave as a female subconsciously; it takes a certain amount of 'brain cycles' to suppress that, the same as it does, say, to ignore the feelings of hunger when you're busy doing something and have nothing to eat, eventually it becomes overwhelming because it never goes away. Same with the desire to present to yourself/the world and behave as female. Eventually your mind gives up and lets the desire take over and it floods your thoughts with all the fem stuff that you've been trying to hold back. We live in a society that considers any feminine behavior or expression to be the worst possible thing a man can do. So it causes all kinds of psychological problems for us, the most obvious, is all the tremendous feelings of guilt we have over wanting to be able to express all these female feelings we have. Are you TS? Maybe. Some clues as to whether you think as a female does can be found in books by Alan and Barbara Pease, such as http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Listen-Women-Cant-Read/dp/0767907639/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1437671690&sr=8-4&keywords=alan+pease
There are all sorts of little clues in their books about the differences between men and women. It's not black and white; you will find a very low percentage of both sexes that have some components of the other, but in general, it gives you a very good start to know if your mind was imprinted very early on as female or male. Then you will have to examine everything else in your life to see if you can find what else went on, and when, to help you determine where you stand in the female/male world, and if you can sort of straddle the line that our society draws to separate the two.

[Angela Marie]

Angela, I'm afraid your question was derailed by using those contentious terms (CD, TG....). So I will give it a try without using those terms. At first you just liked to wear the clothing, but over time you have experienced increasing femininity, as expressed not just by wearing the clothes but through mannerisms, interests, etc. Has your femininity evolved or have you increasingly embraced what was always there?

Hate to straddle that question but both are correct. I would say I embraced what was always there and subsequently evolved.

[KayMcLaughlin]

For most of us it "ends" at some point. That's not to say you no longer do it, that's to say that many of us are satisfied to underdress, some are satisfied to just wear the clothes, some of us wear the clothes plus breast forms, wigs and other padding. Some are satisfied doing this at home, others feel the need to go out in public and hopefully be viewed and treated as women. Some folks eventually decide to actually live their lives full time as females, with or without surgery to alter their bodies to suit their minds.

Putting on a pair of women's panties does not necessarily lead to surgery and life as a female.
I get that. I do. But how do you know where it will stop? I mean... I find my facial hair INCREDIBLY frustrating right now. Because it is messing up my face. So suppose I go do laser; and then decide later, well, I'm OK with stopping. (Note, this is why I am NOT making permanent body changes right now, aside from maybe getting my right ear pierced to join the already pierced left ear). How do you know that you've stopped? Or when?

I'm not sure which I would be more afraid of right now: feeling like it's over, and I'm content not going further - or not.

[Dianne S]

But how do you know where it will stop?

You don't until it does.

[Judith96a]

How many people here have experienced this evolution and does it stop or does our feminine side become increasingly dominant?
Hi Angela,
I can't speak for anyone but myself so this is just my perspective / experience.
I've been cross-dressing for forty years on and off. I'm still very much in the closet so far as family / friends knowing about Judith is concerned. As far as being confident when out & about en-femme is concerned, I had a peak in my early to mid twenties and then again from late forties onwards. And over the years, especially mid twenties, I did flirt with the notion of going full-time, maybe even transitioning. However, as I review all of this I can't really say that my feminine side is really noticeably stronger than forty years ago. In male mode I'm as masculine as I ever was (not desperately macho or anything but not effeminate either). En-femme I'm now conscious of a 'gear shift' - I behave more femininely and my mannerisms do change a little. It's rather like playing a role though more of a sub-conscious thing than conscious. I recall reading Leonard Nimoy describing how "putting on the ears" affected him. It's a bit like that.
So... progression? Yes, certainly in terms of confidence, skill with makeup, self-awareness etc. In terms of increasing identifying as female - no! Forty years ago I didn't know what I was (other than 'different'). Now I identify as a cross dressing male and recognise that that's what I've been all along.


I might get flamed for this. Those that crossdress and wish to present as female even in their own closet are TG to some extent. If it was only about clothes they wouldn't have a need or desire to wear forms, or use female names. ... The issue is because o marital, societal pressures and male socializations many are in denial. Because of those pressures those in denial will not be honest with themselves and admit they are TG.
Not going to flame you Stefan, but I'm not sure that I entirely agree.
I'm not going to get into the whole "are all CDs really TG?" thing. Frankly I neither know nor don't care.
However, I don't really agree with the "If it was only about clothes they wouldn't have a need or desire to wear forms, or use female names" assertion. For me (can't speak for anyone else) forms are part of the illusion. Forms help me to 'look right'. I remember when I bought my current pair of silicone forms to replace a foam pair that I though were 'quite big enough' I wondered out loud if they were a little too big, to which the lady with whom I was dealing responded "no, they're more in proportion" (and no, she wouldn't have made less by selling me a smaller pair). And yes, I admit to loving the feel of them:o
As for using a female name... there are three scenarios where I use 'Judith' rather than my male name-

When en-femme in the real world
When on here
Online, when making purchases for 'Judith' or making any form of reservation for a real world activity that will be en-femme

In these situations it feels incongruous to use a male name. The rest of the time I'm quite content with it!
I reckon that for me it IS "all about the clothes / makeup / jewellery"

[stefan37]

If it was only about the clothes/makeup/jewelry. Then you would own your male identity and forego the breast firms, female name, etc. There has been members here that crossdressed yet there avatar name was male. They were male and their male identity didn't change while dressed. You had thoughts of transitioning when you were younger. Cis identified individuals would never contemplate transitioning. For many the thought is abhorrent.

I will stand by my statement. Those that have a compulsion to cross dress and assume female names, mannerisms etc are to some degree TG.
You explored and found you are comfortable with a male identity. But there is a female identity component. That other identity is not present in Cis individuals.

[Mayo]

But how do you know where it will stop? You don't until it does.
This, I guess. Self-discovery is an ongoing process. At some point you may reach a place where you're comfortable - if not, you either keep going or decide that you'll accept being less comfortable because you can't or won't take the steps you need to take to get to that other place.

I personally find the thought of transitioning to be incredibly stressful for many reasons. I don't know if I'll eventually get to a point where I'll feel the need to do it. If I do, I guess I'll address it at that time.

[KayMcLaughlin]

I don't know... If you lump everyone who has even thought about a transition into the transgender spectrum, you'd probably be talking about a pretty substantial percentage of the population - especially now, as awareness and acceptance are increasing. You'd probably shock a lot of people who consider themselves totally cis-gender, too. ;)

[Judith96a]

If it was only about the clothes/makeup/jewelry. Then you would own your male identity and forego the breast firms, female name, etc.
Stefan, you're in danger of being too dogmatic on the basis of limited and insufficient information.
I do 'own' my male identity. If you met me in male mode you would be in no doubt of that. I choose not to reveal my male identity on here because I'm not 'out' to my family and friends.
I also 'own' my 'right' to wear what I want. Whether I have a 'female identity' to 'own', that is anything more than a 'role', I'm not convinced. (Eg to what degree was the late, great Leonard Nimoy ACTUALLY Spock? - even he was never entirely sure)


You had thoughts of transitioning when you were younger. Cis identified individuals would never contemplate transitioning. For many the thought is abhorrent.
You have no idea how serious or otherwise (my phrase 'flirted with the idea' might give an astute reader a clue) any thoughts of transitioning that I had when younger might have been - so you're neither qualified nor sufficiently informed to draw any conclusions!


I will stand by my statement. Those that have a compulsion to cross dress and assume female names, mannerisms etc are to some degree TG.
You explored and found you are comfortable with a male identity. But there is a female identity component. That other identity is not present in Cis individuals.
NOW you may need to don your flameproof underwear!
I don't know why you feel compelled to distinguish between CD & TG. Many perceive TG as an 'umbrella' term that includes CD. You clearly don't.
Having a female component to ones personality does not make one TG (using either definition). If it did then everyone would be defined as TG! Having a female component to ones identity MIGHT (though i suspect that's more common than anyone imagines). Do I have a female component to my identity? Perhaps. Or perhaps it's a role. Whatever it might be you are most certainly not, for reasons stated above, in any position to discern. You're certainly NOT in any position to contradict me.

The one thing that I am NOT is 'in denial'.

Now let's get back to the OP's original question which is far more interesting and relevant.

[stefan37]

You seem to be very offended I think those that have a compulsion to CD are also TG to some degree. It's my opinion and experience with those that CD and my Cis male and female friends.

You disagree with me. That's your opinion and experience. But it seems I struck a nerve.

[LouiseCD]

I so agree with you!Why do we keep on disqussing this issue? Can't we just be who we are and be happy? All persons are unique in his/her own way and deserves respect.

[ReineD]

Cis identified individuals would never contemplate transitioning. For many the thought is abhorrent.

I agree, cis-people who have no inclination to present as the opposite gender (like me, or my brother, or most people), do not contemplate transitioning, obviously. But, this is not the case with cis-people who do enjoy presenting as the gender opposite than birth.

There are many people in this community who've gone through periods of Pink Fog where the positive feelings were so intense and there was such a let-down when reverting to male-mode, that they wondered who they are, what they wanted, did they want to go further and how far, etc, etc. My own SO looked into hormones at one point and would have loved to have had a pair of real breasts that she could deflate while in male mode. She wanted to go out in public and not be read, she wanted to know exactly what it feels like to be a woman ... at all levels. And then, as happened with my SO and I dare say many others here as well, things calmed down considerably with more freedom and the disappearance of both internal and external barriers (if CDers are so lucky as to have supportive partners or if they are single and if they stop feeling as if they "shouldn't" be doing this). My SO gave herself permission to just go with the flow and s/he got to the point where s/he simply knew that s/he could dress and go out whenever and wherever s/he wanted to. And she did ... a lot. She went out in public for years until the mystery and the newness wore off to the point where dressing to just stay at home often became old hat and more trouble than it is worth. This does not describe someone who has GD. Yet, my SO did look into hormones. Is my SO TG? Yes. Does my SO identify as a woman? No. Is my SO cis-gender? Fundamentally yes, although my SO is a male who is gender fluid ... similar to Judith above.

Just because there are some TSs who identified as CDers before they realized they wanted to take it all the way, does not mean that every CDer who gets lost in Pink Fog is not cis-gender.

It is difficult to convince two types of people that what I say above is true: some TSs, and cis-gender CDers who are in the throes of Pink Fog and who have not gotten to the point where they have complete freedom (internally and externally) with the CDing.

As to the "TG" vs. "CD" debate, we will continue to have disagreements as long as there are two major trains of thought about the definitions: those who think that "TG" describes everyone in the community who cross the gender lines to some degree, regardless of their gender-identity (even those who just dress for fun or who just wear panties), and those who believe that "TG" necessarily means that the person in question has GD and a gender identity opposite or different somehow than birth sex. There's just no point in members who cannot agree on what "TG" means, having a discussion about this.

[Judith96a]

But it seems I struck a nerve.
Nice try but I'm not biting!

[Ezekiel]

The term transgender is very useful term which englobes anybody who crosses the gender norms attached to any society. However, it must be stated that the term is frequently misunderstood as a synonym for transsexuality, specially in the media, everywhere.

It seems that when you say that you are transgender, people automatically thinks you will transition. This is because the term has never been explained profoundly by the people who should do the explanation, that is, us, the transgender community.

But sure, transgender does englobe crossdressers, androgynous, bi-gender... and we should defend the correct use of the term, instead of trying to divide the already small community. Stand united, be strong, and advocate a better understanding and acceptance.


When I was working, I worked with a (Caucasian) lady who had been in the peace corps in Africa. One day in a conversation she mentioned that her son had been born in Africa. Being the quick witted troublemaker that I sometimes am, I said "So he's African American, right?" Boy did she get upset.

You people from the United States sure lack knowledge about the word Caucasian, or even what Africa is. When you use the term "African American" to refer to black people from the United States, you are forgetting that Northern Africans and many South Africans are Caucasian too.

You are also forgetting that black people from the United States, are not "African American", they are simply American, but damn you keep failing to see this.

Even the term "American" is wrongly used, because it makes people forget that America is much more than just the U.S.

Sorry, but it makes me rant when I see things like this, and I had to point it out.

[Pat]

Even the term "American" is wrongly used, because it makes people forget that America is much more than just the U.S.

Actually, the term "American" is used quite correctly. You may be thinking it's not sufficiently differentiated from North American or South American, but those terms are used when referring to people by their continent (e.g. European, Asian, etc.) When referring to people by their country of origin, people from Canada are Canadian, people from Mexico are Mexican and people from the United States of America are... Unitian? no. Statsian? no. Ofian? no. American -- yes. There are many countries with "United" in their names; many with "States" in their names but how many with America in their name?

African-American is a colloquial term born out of the time in the 60's when we were searching as a country for a way to have a discussion about race without using inflammatory terms. It's not a clever or especially correct term, but it was the term we could use without starting a fight. We know it's stupid. The rest of the world doesn't have to use it.

[Clodagh]

Can somebody create an app or even just a flowchart to help people find their correct label?

Q1 Do you consider yourself a man, a woman or something else
Q2 Do you presnt the majority of the time as a man, woman or something else
Q3 and so on...




Not serious




Kinda Serious

[stefan37]

Judging by the arguing and debates about labels. They are only useful for the individual that wants to use them. I have my interpretation and others have theirs.

I use transitioner or transsexual to describe me. I know other transitioning individuals that find the term transsexual offensive. Debating labels on this forum or anywhere for that matter is an exercise in futility.

I made the comment ( which I stand by). That those that have a compulsion to express as the opposite gender (regardless of their identity) have some degree of TG or even GD. Which most likely would explain the discomfort when they don't get time to express that part of them. It is a very complex phenomenan and most will be in denial to acknowledge.

[xoMindyxo]

I am a crossdresser/transvestite, and, I also consider myself transgender. It's how I feel and no one will take that away from me. No elitist with a stick up their behind is going to tell me otherwise . :battingeyelashes::devil:

[stefan37]

Nobody can tell you how to label or identify.

[ReineD]

Nobody can tell you how to label or identify.

I know Stefan, and I think this is why people need to get away from the terms "CD", "TG", or even "TS" to identify themselves since they will encounter people who choose those same words to identify THEMselves even though they ascribe completely different meanings to them.

IMO, it is best in this forum (not to strangers who deserve no explanation unless you want to give it) to simply say what you do, whatever that may be, for example:

"I identify as a woman, but most of the time (or part of the time) I present as a man. I am on hormones (or I do not plan on modifying my body) and I will continue to present as male (or not) for work until my retirement in 2 (or 15) years".

or

"I identify as a woman, I am beginning the process of transition and plan to live as a woman full-time, however I am not yet sure if I will have SRS (or I've scheduled SRS with Dr. x, yippee I can't wait!)".

or

"I identify outside the binary gender structure (I am agender, gender-fluid, bigender, or whatever) and I fluctuate with my gender presentation, sometimes presenting male and sometimes female (or I present androgynously).

or

"I am fully transitioned legally, socially, and physically. Life is great".

or

"I dress for fun and love being a guy the rest of the time. Life is great".

You get the idea.

[Samantha Clark]

Thank you, Reine, for being a sensible voice in what seems to me to threaten to devolve into a Tower of Babel.

[mechamoose]

Nobody gets to challenge who I say I am.

Period. Full stop.

I'm 'complicated'. I don't need to justify myself.

<3

- MM

[Mayo]

Why We Need to Stop Policing the Gender of Men Who Like ‘Feminine’ Things (http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/policing-men-feminine-things/) (YouTube video w/transcript)

"You can be a man who very much enjoys being a man, but also enjoys wearing makeup or dresses. Jaden [Smith] wearing a dress doesn’t change his gender, unless he wants it to."

[AlyssaS]

I don't know how to classify myself. I desperately want to have curves like a female -- breasts, waist, hips, butt --, and have no facial hair and less body hair. I have long hair (well past shoulder length) that I often where in a high ponytail. However, I find the idea of having a vagina/female role in sex repulsive. I love the male role in sex, and want to keep that. Temporary padding and crossdressing used to be enough for me, but more and more I feel satisfied for less and less time after being dressed.

[Ezekiel]

Actually, the term "American" is used quite correctly. You may be thinking it's not sufficiently differentiated from North American or South American, but those terms are used when referring to people by their continent (e.g. European, Asian, etc.) When referring to people by their country of origin, people from Canada are Canadian, people from Mexico are Mexican and people from the United States of America are... Unitian? no. Statsian? no. Ofian? no. American -- yes. There are many countries with "United" in their names; many with "States" in their names but how many with America in their name?


Well, I think the United States should start thinking about finding a more appropiate term to use instead of "American" to refer to its citizens. Not only the U.S. is America, but the U.S. is part of America, just as much as any other country in the continent.

The term "America" is too broad to be monopolyzed by the U.S.

[Dianne S]

The term "America" is too broad to be monopolyzed by the U.S.

You're fighting a losing battle here. As a Canadian, I don't consider myself "American". "North American" maybe, but not "American".

In fact, there is no continent called "America". There's one called "North America" and another called "South America"; just plain old "America" is a synonym for the USA and you might as well get used to it.

[Lorileah]

let's keep country out of this....Transgender only

[mechamoose]

let's keep country out of this....Transgender only

There is still a test to be had here... heels vs flats!

wedges are cheating (Even though I love them) They are the bisexuals of footwear.

- MM

[Samantha2015]

Madame Moose I love that you hijacked ?? the thread into what is really the important
discussion SHOES !!!! :D

Let other people label us whatever they want as long as its civil. You are what you feel you are.
I think I'm just a plain old CD. If somebody else wants to call me TG ..fine no problem for me.
When the labeling becomes nasty or derogatory is when corrections or actions become necessary !!
:2c:

[mechamoose]

We have a couple of flavors here. Those who like pretty clothes (like me) and those who were born in the wrong skin. Dress how you want, but that has nothing to do with our members who are living in the wrong body.

CD/TG isn't all that random a label. Gender identification is a pretty hot issue right now.

I love that we have so many strong women here. This is in the top 2 of my safest places.

- MM

[Tiffany Jane]

Nobody gets to challenge who I say I am.

Period. Full stop.

I'm 'complicated'. I don't need to justify myself.

<3

- MM

Been awhile since I have visited the forum, yet I find this to be the thesis of my departure. My wife tells me this everyday, yet it is hard to teach an old man new sensibilities when he has hidden the tricks for so long. Also, happened to click on your profile, MM, not what I expected to find, yet that is so common when you allow ones preconceived expectations to be opened to the truth.

[Belle Cri]

mechamoose

Amen. I'll stick with my pretties and damn the torpedoes.


Oh you evil bitch. No. Wedges are divine.

[HerWife1110]

Bloody Hell!
This thread has been a great eye opener for me. I was relatively unfamiliar with CD prior to my wife coming out as trans.
CD has an incredibly vast scope. I feel silly that I was so naive. I now have many trans friends, but have only met 2 CDs (very briefly) in the community.
Thanks everyone. This has been both enlightening and entertaining.
BTW. Wedges! ( I'm bi :D )

[Pat]

mechamoose

But are they the footwear of bisexuals? (I could go either way...) ;)

[NicoleScott]

We already knew Crossdress vs Transgender is a wedge issue, but this is ridiculous.

[Meghan4now]

I think wedges look clunky, but are much easier to walk in. What does that tell you?

Are you in it for what feels right, or are you willing to suffer for how you want to be percieved?

I have heels and flats. Funny though, wouldn't need wedges for my boots. Somehow they look totally hot, and I can navigate the world in them pretty well. So am I now just a situational CD/TG? While you are figuring that out, I'll be over here trying to perfect my beard cover. Let me know when your done, and we'll go get a drink.

[Belle Cri]

I'm done, let's go.

lol.

[KayMcLaughlin]

I've never tried wedges. Maybe that should be my next experiment? ;)

I'm fluid, at this point. Sometimes I am Kay. Sometimes I am not. When out as a male, sometimes I wear a kilt. Half my jeans are women's sizes (I love the fit), and ALL my shoes are size 11 women's, even the androgynous ones I wear as a male. They fit better, and I enjoy the light weight in my feet. I dunno where I will be a year or two from now. It's about the journey, not the destination.

[Sarah Doepner]

It seems I'm weighing in a little late on this but the water seems fine and I'll jump in anyway.

I admit I've wavered back and forth for several years on terms and may do so in the future, but here's my take on the basic stuff. I see Transgender as the umbrella term for everyone who is not locked in to the gender binary. From those who are resistant to being included because they only wore panties for a fetish experience to those born in the wrong body and fully transistion. yeah, very big umbrella. After that you can pick the terms that define the behavior/mind set under that umbrella that best fit your self-image. You may be a Dabbler, Crossdresser, Gender Queer, Gender Fluid, Trans* or anything else that has been tossed in the ring or you invent. Some of these will find you with lots of folks smiling and nodding their heads and others will have people shrugging their shoulders in confusion.

I'm starting to think the key is how we use those terms as they apply to ourselves. Since we have to filter the language though our own sensibilities and experiences and expectations, it's not a surprise that we have difficulty finding stable common ground. As we change, our personal definitions are modified as well. I'm beginning to believe that we, (no, make that I) use some terms and definitions as limiters or barriers. As long as I call myself a "Crossdresser", I don't need to consider anything else. It may be that's exactly the best word to define me, but as soon as I begin to think I'm "Gender Fluid" then MY view of the world and definitions change. And if I just say I'm "Transgender" it opens the rest of the umbrella for consideration.

There are enough of us with similiar experiences that we tend to agree on the meaning of many of the terms. The key point is how we use that language for ourselves and how it either frees or limits us in our personal growth.

[Jane G]

it's a scale plain and simple, there is no I'm a CD box your a Ts box. Life gets in the way. put one person with the same generic tendencies in another persons life path and suddenly they are one or the other. We all have to play the cards we are dealt.:daydreaming:

[JessicaJHall]

Dang, I thought this was about choosing teams for the CD.com softball game.
I'm a She-dee transdresser femdragger, I think? On Mondays and Wednesdays anyway. And a gender bender Jpeg sender on the weekends.
OK, full disclosure, I'm not awake yet.. only halfway through my morning pot (of coffee that is). Sorry if I offended everyone!