Tg mtf

[Robin414]

Does anyone miss being a guy? I know, stupid question but I've thought a LOT about it lately and just curious?

[Kris Avery]

Well, I have never been one, so I can't really answer.
I just look like one...sort of..but that's OK.

[Zooey]

Disclaimer: I'm not presenting as female at work yet, although it looks like that change is probably happening sooner than I originally thought (and honestly can't come soon enough; it's getting kinda ridiculous). I'm full-time everywhere outside of work, and I'd be shocked if most people at work don't at least suspect.

No, I do not miss being a guy, primarily because I never actually was one. You might as well ask me if I miss being a velociraptor. The more I talk to friends old and new, the more I realize that even the things I thought I had in common with most guys weren't actually commonalities. Much to their chagrin, I've given up on trying to answer questions from my girlfriends about guys because I pretty clearly don't actually have any special insight into their (often dumb) behavior.

What I do miss occasionally is simplicity and sleep. I miss waking up, doing nothing, and leaving the house at least semi-comfortably. HRT is doing great things for me, and hopefully a few more rounds of the extremely-nice-but-ultimately-evil technician shooting laser beams at my skull will improve that a bit.

[Robin414]

Thanks for the replies, I hate to admit it but I think I'm greedy, I get the 'male privilege' and I'm having a tough time letting it go I think 😣

[Zooey]

"Male Privilege" is like Tinkerbell. If everybody stops believing in it, it disappears forever. Please stop clapping.

I have literally zero idea of how you identify or what your intentions are, but when it comes to male privilege I very humbly request that you be part of the solution and stop perpetuating it by clinging to it.

[Lorileah]

really? maybe time to rethink where you're going

[Anne2345]

No. No I do not. Not even one bit.

[Badtranny]

really? maybe time to rethink where you're going

She's not being snarky. I seriously don't know one trans girl who misses being a guy. Granted I don't know ALL of them, but PaulaQ might. (sorry girl, couldn't resist) :-)

I would hate to see someone go through what I've been through, and then miss being a dude. You may want to chat with some of the middle path ladies.

[Emogene]

Sorry but being male isn't all that it is cracked up to be!

Miss it, yeah sort of like a tooth ache, its much better when it's gone.

[cheryl reeves]

never had much insight on being male,just got used to trying to play one,kinda like a ftm transexual tries to play male..always wondered about those male privaleges are,never got the handbook.

[becky77]

Too soon to comment accurately but seeing as I identify as female, why would I miss it?
I'm only five months full-time and I can't think of anything worse that going back to being a guy.

As for male privilege, I have always been aware of it on some level but never took advantage. The whole boys club thing was alien to me.
The only time I notice the difference is when people automatically treat me as knowing less or nothing about a subject they just assume a guy knows.
It happens at work sometimes, DIY stores and mechanics mainly it's no big deal for me, I feel right in a woman's world.
Sometimes it annoys me as there is an arrogance or sexist undercurrent to it.
I think 'you have a damn cheek'! I have never thought, 'I miss that'.

With our equality values, I imagine it's not as big a difference in Britain as elsewhere in the world.

[Marcelle]

Hi Robin,

Although I am not TS (kind of like the "middle path" term ) I will add my two cents as there are days when I identify as a woman. On those days which currently is now on day 4 or 5 (sorry lost count), I do not miss my guy side in fact I don't even think about him. Don't get me wrong he is there lurking behind my eyes the same way my girl side is when I am guy, but I don't miss him. However, I do all the same things I would do "guy or girl" and that includes working out (just a different outfit), yard work, errands, DIY jobs, and work - so there is nothing to miss about doing what I normally do. However, I just don't think about him. When I am presenting as a man, I enjoy him the same way I enjoy being a woman and this is not a "male privilege thing" it is just a feeling that he is part of me the same way she is part of me and I love them equally. Funny thing though and this is something I have discussed with my therapist at length . . . while I do not miss my guy side when presenting as a woman, I do on occasion miss my girl side when presenting as a man.

Cheers

Isha

[Nigella]

...kinda like a ftm transexual tries to play male

Seriously !!! With statements like this, is it small wonder why we no longer have a strong FTM membership, what makes the statement worse is that it is coming from a self identified MTF transexual. I guess you are playing at female then?

[steftoday]

never had much insight on being male,just got used to trying to play one,kinda like a ftm transexual tries to play male..always wondered about those male privaleges are,never got the handbook.

really? really??? a FTM transsexual tries to play male????

if someone is FTM TS, they aren't trying to "play" being a male, any more than someone that is a MTF TS person is "playing" being a woman.

jesus. where do you come up with this shit?

[I Am Paula]

First up Cheryl- Shame on you.

Although I was never male, I got pretty good at playing one.
Do I miss acting male? Never
Do I miss dressing male? Never
Do I miss guy stuff? I still do all the stuff I used to. What's wrong with a woman with a nail gun?
Do I miss male priviledge? Never had any.

More and more, even my memories of 'being' male are fading.

[Shelly Preston]

never had much insight on being male,just got used to trying to play one,kinda like a ftm transexual tries to play male..always wondered about those male privaleges are,never got the handbook.

Cheryl I can't believe your statment. :eek:

If you don't know you ask.

Oh and for your information no one who is TS plays at anything.

For some it can be a life long struggle.

[Krisi]

I remember watching a TV documentary on PBS about two guys who transitioned and eventually "de-transitioned" (back to guys) so I suppose there are some out there.

[Dianne S]

Do I miss 'being' a guy? I would instead ask: Do I miss acting as a guy?

No, not at all. There is absolutely nothing about presenting as a guy that I miss. I'm much happier with my life and with myself now.

[Leah Lynn]

I grew up looking like a white male. That would label me as the new minority. I always perceived that ladies were the true privileged class. Since I came out at work (still dress as male, waiting for name/gender change), the guys treat me as female. I can't even replace a headlight on my truck without one jumping in to do it for me. AND I LOVE IT!

Leah

[LeaP]

No-one who has met FTMs would make such a comment. Most absolutely drip with guyness, so much so that it's almost startling.

[Frances]

I miss hanging out with guys, especially other musicians, but not being one.

[kimdl93]

To put it another way, since I'm not full time, I always feel a degree of exasperation, frustration, resentment, and sadness when I'm obliged to present as male. I never experience the opposite feeling.

I'm not altogether convinced that there is anything more than a residual or vestigial sense of male privilege anymore. In my narrow world...healthcare, most professionals are women. But listening to science and business, I'm struck by how women are transcending men in so many fields. I feel like I'm joining the winning team.

[Nigella]

Guy stuff never did it for me before, so there is nothing to miss now.

[PaulaQ]

@Cheryl - my boyfriend is FtM. He is a police officer who works in the most dangerous areas of the city, and has over his entire 25 year career. He has been decorated for valor in the line of duty multiple times, and he deals with situations that many other cops are afraid to handle. He's done this while facing prejudice and discrimination from his department - his first few years they deliberately put him into the MOST dangerous situations in the hopes he'd be injured, killed, or at least frightened off. He wasn't.

He is more of a goddamned man than any cisgender dude you've ever known, I can assure you of that. The FtM's I've known are generally BETTER men than the cis guys I know, because they had to fight for stuff that just gets handed to the cis guys.

@Robin - I hated every second of being a man, and I would never go back. I'd rather die, than do that.

[becky77]

,kinda like a ftm transexual tries to play male.

I don't know if you try to irritate people, but I do know I won't believe anything you say now.
How can a true TS ever make that statement?

You seem full of it to me.

[cheryl reeves]

i apolgize for the way i said that,i was kinda upset with some crap thats going on in my house that i share with my wifes brother and their sis and took it out on yall. i guess after all the yrs ive been dealing with my own issues,im just wore out and grumpy these days and seem to take it out on others.

[Michelle.M]

No. No I do not. Not even one bit.

Me neither. It was kinda fun being able to write my name in the snow, but only a little. I'll find a new drunken pastime.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

me neither.

it never even occurred to me to wonder which frankly surprised me and it also helped me understand i was doing the right thing...

[flatlander_48]

the guys treat me as female. I can't even replace a headlight on my truck without one jumping in to do it for me. AND I LOVE IT!

Leah

Doesn't that perpetuate the concept of privilege/sexism?

DeeAnn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

it's not that easy Cheryl. Your comments are ridiculous and filled with nasty judgements you make about everybody.
Frankly I don't see why anybody pays attention to what you say at all

[Robin414]

really? maybe time to rethink where you're going

Oh I do, all the time, hence the OP 😦

[PretzelGirl]

And that is okay Robin. If you have thoughts like this, then take your time. Think it out, talk it out. Time is your friend until you hit the point that something is busting your door down saying it is time. I have many friends that at least go through a period of their lives, if not permanently, where a middle path served them well. It is about calming the thoughts and if your thoughts indicate something else, let it process and progress.

[Rianna Humble]

Robin, I think that what you are going through may either be part of the normal checks and balances to be sure you are going in the right direction. And it's OK to discover if you are not. Or it could be a prolonged WTF moment. I'm glad you brought it up here and hope that some of the answers will help you work out where you are going.

To answer your original post, I don't miss being something that I was no good at imitating, but I sometimes miss people trusting me to do something that they know I am good at.

[Aprilrain]

I don't miss being a guy but I'd take being a cisgender male over this shit any day! I do miss having a functional sex organ (my SRS was a dismal failure) I've paid a very high price to get rid of the dysphoria and it's not even all the way gone.

[Nigella]

I guess that, as expected, the overall response is no, there is nothing to miss, however, there are, upon reflection, somethings we enjoyed then but cannot do now like "snow writing".

Generally once transition is complete, there is not much that you stop doing, just the odd thing or two that is not "missed"

[Kaitlyn Michele]

actually I can still do snow writing, I need to bend juuuuusssssstttt right tho

[Angela Campbell]

No. Not even a little.

Male privelege? Remember that also comes with male expectations. Never wanted either.


I did once miss having a penis though. It was when I had to use the facilities at a place with only filthy port o potty s.....

[Jorja]

Miss being male? No way! Male privilege? What is that? You want to be heard and be taken seriously? Know what you are talking about and speak up. Don't allow them to bully you! They are just men.

[Badtranny]

I don't miss being a guy but I'd take being a cisgender male over this shit any day! .

Yep, I love being free but I would have taken a pill to make me a 'normal' dude in a heartbeat. My heart goes out to people like April who've had surgical complications (and it happens waaaaaay more than you hear about). However, I have met April and she has no issues with passing or assimilation, so how's that for a trade?

I've also met gals who have had successful GRS, yet will never pass very well because they just didn't get a good pull in the genetic lottery. How's THAT for a trade.

...and for those part timers on the road to an eventual transition, please opine judiciously until you've got a couple of years under your belt. We have been where you are, but you haven't been here yet.

[Kathryn Martin]

never had much insight on being male,just got used to trying to play one,kinda like a ftm transexual tries to play male..always wondered about those male privaleges are,never got the handbook.

It is apparent from your comment that you have no idea what male privilege is. It is something that is conferred on you as a result of your upbringing and socialization as a male not something you can have control over unless you do some serious unpacking of your own and other peoples behavior. It might help to look at this : http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ ad to understand that it takes a lot of work rid yourself it. It is not something you can or cannot take advantage of.

[flatlander_48]

Male privilege? What is that? You want to be heard and be taken seriously? Know what you are talking about and speak up. Don't allow them to bully you! They are just men.

I assume you are being facetious.


It is apparent from your comment that you have no idea what male privilege is. It is something that is conferred on you as a result of your upbringing and socialization as a male not something you can have control over unless you do some serious unpacking of your own and other peoples behavior. It might help to look at this : http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ ad to understand that it takes a lot of work rid yourself it. It is not something you can or cannot take advantage of.

Yes. It is like Air. It surrounds us, yet it can be very hard to actually see. However, the effects of its existence are quite apparent.

DeeAnn

[becky77]

It is apparent from your comment that you have no idea what male privilege is. It is something that is conferred on you as a result of your upbringing and socialization as a male not something you can have control over unless you do some serious unpacking of your own and other peoples behavior. It might help to look at this : http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ ad to understand that it takes a lot of work rid yourself it. It is not something you can or cannot take advantage of.

Perhaps your life has benefited from male privilege, don't assume everyone else has.

I'm not sure how someone that's clings to their male identity and doesn't live full-time as a woman, can have an unbiased perspective on male privilege. It's easy to claim it doesn't apply when you don't know any different.

[arbon]

Does anyone miss being a guy? I know, stupid question but I've thought a LOT about it lately and just curious?

What do you mean your thinking about it? Like wondering if you would miss it if you transitioned? What kinds of things do you think you might miss?


No, there is nothing I miss about my old life. I don't even understand how I ever lived that life, it was like a bad dream I finally woke up from. I look at guys and wonder how they can just be guys and alright with that and why I couldn't be. It's just not who I am. For me it was just all wrong.

Some people who were close to me sure miss him though.



(my SRS was a dismal failure) I've paid a very high price to get rid of the dysphoria and it's not even all the way gone.

I'm sorry to hear that April :(
The price can be very steep.

I've not done well in my recovery and am still waiting to see how things end up. The pain I've gone through and am still in has been horrible. I can't even walk normal yet after 9 weeks. . But what is done is done, and there was nothing that could have been said to me to convince me not to do what I did. But I have had these moments in pain when I have felt pretty bad for doing it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

if you think about it, I doubt successful transsexuals think about worrying about missing being a guy..

its falls into the don't transition unless you have to bucket...if this is on your mind, you probably do not "have to" transition

if its a coping thought to avoid committing to transition it will melt away like all the other coping thoughts in time..


that's a different thing than Melissa's very pragmatic statement that given how her life started she'd be happy to be cisgender..

[flatlander_48]

Perhaps your life has benefited from male privilege, don't assume everyone else has.

Everyone? Probably not, but I would guess a clear and distinct majority. Case in point is the Equal Rights Amendment. Women wanted a way to insure fairness in job opportunities, job promotions, pay equality, etc. As a nation we were pretty lame in not ratifying it, but so far 23 states have put their own versions of the ERA in place. The most recent was Oregon in November of last year, so obviously it is still an important issue and discrimination based on sex still exists.

Privilege is a very insidious thing. You don't have to know about it in order for it to happen and benefit from it. Many decisions that effect us directly may not be done in a transparent manner. For example, how many of us know exactly how decisions are made regarding our promotions and raises in the workplace? How many know exactly what topics came up in conversation for those who make those decisions? These days people are smart enough (usually) not to say Joe Blow was promoted even though Jane Doe was more qualified, but there is the possibility that it reflects their thinking (consciously or unconsciously).


I'm not sure how someone that's clings to their male identity and doesn't live full-time as a woman, can have an unbiased perspective on male privilege. It's easy to claim it doesn't apply when you don't know any different.

Look at it this way: from a male perspective it is male privilege. From a female perspective, it is sexism. It is 2 sides of the same coin.

[jules]

I don't know how to answer this really but all I can say is I always hated being a man. And as the years went by even looking in the mirror after a shower was becoming horrible. It's still horrible but it's getting better.
If Morpheus was sat next to me and gave me a choice between the red pill makes you a women and the blue will make you a Eman. A god to women 😊.
I would take the red pill In a heart beat. Would not even ask for water to wash it down with.
Being a man sucks. They smell, covered in fur and all they do is talk shift about women and tump there chest all day long. Again being honest 😕
You know we can do the same thing as a man can. We can drive fast, play in the mud, build stuff.
We are not limited because of our sex. You have to just put your mind to it and stand your ground.

My two cents worth again 😊

Julie summers

[Kathryn Martin]

Perhaps your life has benefited from male privilege, don't assume everyone else has.

I'm not sure how someone that's clings to their male identity and doesn't live full-time as a woman, can have an unbiased perspective on male privilege. It's easy to claim it doesn't apply when you don't know any different.

Your first statement clearly shows that you misunderstand the nature male privilege. I am also not sure what you are trying to imply with your second statement. I have been fulltime for close to 5 years. I transitioned in place, I am a lawyer in the same town I practiced in before. If you were raised as a boy and lived as a man for any length of time you become privileged because those around you believed you to be male. It is nothing that you create but it exists. For many TS the ambient noise of such upbringing is the greatest threat to their integration and assimilation into society as women.

[sarahcsc]

The thing that is stopping me from living as a full time female, is mainly social, and by that, I mean I'm quite comfortable with my socially assigned gender.

I still feel a sting when people address me as Mr, but it is nothing compared to the disruption in my life had I chose to transition completely.

It isn't inherently good or bad being a social male, but I'm good at it. After all, I've been doing that all my life.

Although I'm more of a female psychologically, that doesn't matter because the public doesn't have to know.

Would I miss being a social male if I transitioned completely? I would say "yes". It isn't because of the 'male privileges', it is just because I was more familiar with that role.

Some would argue that maybe I should rethink my path but I pay them no mind.

Also, I think in time, if I had transitioned completely, I would learn to forget my male social role and adopt a female social role and that would be the end of it.

If you are talking about 'missing the biological male'... Well... absolutely no.

I've been on HRT for almost 18 months now and the changes on my body are very pleasing and I welcome them.

I'm still a tad frightened of by budding breasts but that it because I'm afraid it might jeapordize my social male status. But again, that is too small an issue to worry about. After all, fat men have boobs twice my size.

Hope this answers your question Robin. :)

Hugs,
S



actually I can still do snow writing, I need to bend juuuuusssssstttt right tho

Lol... that is hilarious. :D:D

[becky77]

Your first statement clearly shows that you misunderstand the nature male privilege. I am also not sure what you are trying to imply with your second statement. I have been fulltime for close to 5 years. I transitioned in place, I am a lawyer in the same town I practiced in before. If you were raised as a boy and lived as a man for any length of time you become privileged because those around you believed you to be male. It is nothing that you create but it exists. For many TS the ambient noise of such upbringing is the greatest threat to their integration and assimilation into society as women.

The second statement wasn't aimed at you, it was just an open observation.

I fully understand the nature of male privilege, I don't understand why you think you always know best?
I never said I wasn't subjected to male privilege, but I have never really benefited from it.
You don't know my upbringing, the last part about ambient noise etc (what does that mean?), I have found integrating very natural, a massive relief.

You said it takes a lot of work to rid yourself of male privilege, does that mean it took 'you' a lot of work to rid yourself of it?
You mention male privilege all the time, which implies it has been a big deal for you, can you understand it might not be a big deal for me?

I have an awful lot to work through still, but missing my male life isn't one of them.

[cheryl reeves]

It is apparent from your comment that you have no idea what male privilege is. It is something that is conferred on you as a result of your upbringing and socialization as a male not something you can have control over unless you do some serious unpacking of your own and other peoples behavior. It might help to look at this : http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ ad to understand that it takes a lot of work rid yourself it. It is not something you can or cannot take advantage of.

according to that checklist i been left out for a woman can get a job faster then i ever could,that is why i loved truckdriving they did not care what your sex was all they cared about was if you could drive the truck and make deliveries on time..most times i look at other men and wonder how it must feel to be a true male,for i never really have been good at it no matter how hard i tried.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

right becky...if male priviledge is some kind of given and its bestowed on males just because they are males, then there is nothing to shed...you live as a female and its gone..

I think getting used to it being gone, and learning to be productive and happy without benefitting can be jarring..

in my own case specifically, I am sure I reaped benefits and ive experienced being smart and businesslike "for a woman" and had moments where I think my male indoctrination gave people pause, but who cares really...
i'm ok, they are ok and we all move on... to me its an overblown thing because I never lived my male priviledge authentically anyway ...and if a group of women feel im somehow different because my male priviledge is showing under my slip, I just deal with and have confidence in my authentic life, warts and all...

[LeaP]

My wife is sensitive to male privilege and will invariably point it out when it crops up, which is virtually all of the time we are together. It can be as simple as the assumption that I'm the decision maker on a purchase. My wife asking a question and having the answer directed at me. My name being automatically assumed as primary on accounts. Being solicited for assistance when she can't even get the salesman's attention ... even in a women's section of a store. Having a technician engaged with her, and the tech turning to me when the diagnostic is discussed. Being handed the wine list. There are a million, great and small. The evidence is everywhere in male primacy and dominance. Social deference is ubiquitous.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

do you think lea it will be a problem for you when you are on the other side of that deference??

it sure hasn't for me...

[becky77]

to me its an overblown thing because I never lived my male priviledge authentically anyway ...

That's my view point also, but Kathryn's reply suggests that's not possible.

[LeaP]

do you think lea it will be a problem for you when you are on the other side of that deference??

it sure hasn't for me...

I would say that it matters where it matters. That's a personal thing. I have been very asocial all of my life and intensely dislike being the center of attention… Including all those things that my wife tends to cite. In that regard, I would hope that many of the day to day occurrences would not only not be a problem for me, but may actually be more comfortable. As you know, however, I plan on transitioning at work and am in a senior position. Women have made some headway, but still have a long way to go. That especially applies in executive management and even more so in technology, which is HEAVILY male dominated. Still, I tend to believe the bigger part of that problem is being trans… Other problem areas reportedly subtle but potentially serious, such as medical treatment.

[Kathryn Martin]

Thank you Lea. It is astonishing how unbiquitous it is. Having been raised in this environment, which is essentially true and is in the nature of someone transitioning from male to female means that we tend to take certain things for granted. This does affect our behaviors, and that is what needs a lot of unpacking.

Becky, I am certainly not always right. However, I would suggest to you that a summary dismissal of the issue and denial that you are affected in any way is not useful for anyone who wants to transition. Most transwomen become defensive around this issue in particular because it threatens the narrative of always having been girl, woman. You cannot possibly believe that socialization does not matter.

[whowhatwhen]

Mail privilege is why I went back to working at the post office.

[stefan37]

Those of us that are older and lived a majority of our lives as male have absolutely benefited from male privilege. It was ingrained in us at an early age and in essence was subjegated in the background. It was what allowed me to enter my profession and become proficient at it. Lea mentioned some of it that her wife is absolutely aware. I have experienced it attending seminars where I am the only female in a room of males. Male privilege is what allowed Cheryl to be a truck driver without the hassle of proving ability.
There are companies if you can believe it. That will not discuss a home project without the male member present. They will only accept a contract that has the male members signature. ( wrong and short sighted in my opinion since it's the wife that usually makes the decision where the home is involved).
I struggled joining NAPW and listening to the membership spiel. Predominately because the success I've experienced in my business was a direct result of being born male. I don't know if I would have been given the opportunities or support to do what I do had a been born as a Cis female.
I don't always agree with Kathryn, but I do get the gist of what she talks about as it relates to integration as a female into society.

If you were born male. You benefited from male privilege. Whether you realize it or not.

[becky77]

Thank you Lea. It is astonishing how unbiquitous it is. Having been raised in this environment, which is essentially true and is in the nature of someone transitioning from male to female means that we tend to take certain things for granted. This does affect our behaviors, and that is what needs a lot of unpacking.

Becky, I am certainly not always right. However, I would suggest to you that a summary dismissal of the issue and denial that you are affected in any way is not useful for anyone who wants to transition. Most transwomen become defensive around this issue in particular because it threatens the narrative of always having been girl, woman. You cannot possibly believe that socialization does not matter.

It's not a summary dismissal, I have not denied that is has affected my life, but that has mainly been in how others have treated me in some situations, always strangers and for not very long.

But if you don't naturally tap into it, you won't be much affected by it when it's gone.

I have never taken it for granted as it was so far removed from who I was, I've always been on the outside, it had no affect on my behaviour. Quite the opposite in that transition is like putting on the right size glove and now everything makes sense.
What's to unpack, if you never took it in, in the first place?

Of course socialization matters, my socialization has been almost exclusively with women, I've never hung with other guys, I avoided both my brothers stage do's, my Dad treated me totally different to my brothers, they got to do things I couldn't.
My uncle would send me off to cook with my aunt, while he taught my brothers how to care for his Yacht.
I've never really understood men and that became alarmingly obvious when I started dating them.

Even at work my promotions came via female friends, when I was in a male dominated environment I wasn't treated as part of the club. When after ten years I left, someone told me they thought I was camp and gay. I always felt my work had to be so much better constantly having to prove myself.
I would get dragged into the office to explain something the other guys would have gotten away with.
There is a boys club, you find out they are playing golf together and you wasn't even considered.
I have no idea why I've always been treated differently as I'm pretty sure I hid this side of me well. But when I did come out no one was truly shocked, although they didn't think it would be TS.


I have transitioned, losing MP has not been an issue to me.
I now socially fit, before I rarely went anywhere as it was too awkward, that's not the same as saying I'm ignorant to MP

I imagine it would be a threat to the 'narrative', if someone was a guys guy reaping the benefits of a man's world, that person should be asking questions of themself.

Btw is the narrative something you don't believe in? Just curious as 'narrative' sounds a bit dismissive, but it's hard to judge the context in written text.

[LeaP]

It only threatens some peoples narratives when they misunderstand what is meant by male privilege. It's a concept that is unfortunately named. When it is assumed to be some sort of gender elitism (only, or primarily), the perception of threat equates to the perception of hypocrisy. As if one was "always a girl"… yet took full advantage of the assumed elite status.

Privilege is far more complex than that. "Privileging" means attributing or assigning. Gender privileging is the entire gendered social milieu. The full body of expectations, assumptions, formal and informal rules, laws and rules, etc. that pertain to a gender. Privilege not only refers to the traditional advantages about which we are talking (the most common usage, since it addresses perceived social and political inequities), but lots of things that aren't so positive, too. Then too, it also refers to the things to which trans women often look forward – having their date pay, having doors opened, being protected from slight or insult, and all the other social and legal niceties to which women are accustomed or entitled. (Note that you don't have to necessarily agree with all of these.)

Rejecting the notion of privilege is tantamount to rejecting the idea that society itself runs along gender lines.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

this stuff doesn't bother me...maybe i'm pragmatic....the social constructs of gender (as opposed to gender IS only a social construct) dictate these privileges, and we all behave in relation to them..

I like being "treated as" a woman...i am a woman....its not a big deal...it was a much bigger deal to be treated as a man..

in women's circles I laugh too loud and I am sure I exert my own internal training that was fostered over 40+ years of being treated as a male...for better and worse...who cares..

and I don't sweat it when I my "maleness" pops up and causes an awkward moment or a question in somebody's eye...I AM different...its ok...

[DebbieL]

No. Someone put it nicely earlier in the thread
I never was a guy, I just pretended to be one.

That being said, there are times when I am in a business meeting or technical presentation and I have an observation or an objection - and I notice that the men just keep on talking when a woman tries to speak up. If they try to talk over a man, the man will just get louder and start yelling.

As a result, I am now more aware when they are doing to me so I am more aware of when they do it to others - so there are times when I will just say "Stop talking, the client has a question". It may sound rude, but it's a more common strategy for women - because they DON'T want to get into a shouting match.

I've also notice that during a meeting, women look each other in the eye - they can communicate volumes before they open their mouths.

When I was pretending to be a man, I often had difficulty getting the floor, because the other men in the room perceived me as a sissy or homosexual - it was usually when I would apply a LOT of expertise to addressing the most pressing issues - that the alpha males would finally realize they had to yield the floor or risk losing their support.

Not that I don't have to pretend, as a woman, I find that people are more willing to turn on the alpha male when he tries to play the dominance came. It's OK to dominate the omega male, but it's NOT OK to dominate and oppress the "nice lady".

Of course, I can also listen to what is going on, and often, address the most critical issues more effectively because it's no longer an issue of trying to play "top dog" - I can focus on making sure that I really understand what the issues are before they finally grant me my turn to speak. It wastes time at times, but nobody seems to mind. The women just roll their eyes and smile.

[Frances]

do you think lea it will be a problem for you when you are on the other side of that deference??

it sure hasn't for me...

Yeah, the assumptions about privilege from a lot of people is that there is male privilege and then none for everyone else. There is plenty of female privilege, cis gendered privilege, young and old folks privilege and so on. A lot of this discourse is based on the idea that one group suffers through life and the other does not. Tell that to the young man who is sent to war, or to the father who has to provide for others get discarded by society as a non entity for not doing so anymore. All groups have inconveniences and privileges. Asserting that your suffering is worse than someone else's is egocentric. So the menu is handed to someone else. Guess what? Your sentence for any crime will be 66% less intense than a man's.

[Badtranny]

Don't try to personalize 'male privilege'. Too many people are clueless to the concept and willfully ignorant to the practice.

In my old business as a construction manager women were always perceived as a step under a man. It's not like then men didn't have to work, or they were given anything extra, so the average dude was completely clueless that he was getting the job over an equally qualified woman merely because he's a man "and the crew doesn't respond well to women". If you want to pretend that this doesn't happen than feel free, but I'm here to tell you that I've seen it many times. Also, when a man gets a job assisting a PM, he is either a Jr PM, or a Project Engineer but when a woman has that job she is ALWAYS titled an Administrator. I have never encountered a male Project Administrator but have seen many 'Project Engineers' who couldn't hold the pencil of my female lead Admin.

Any man who thinks the glass ceiling doesn't really exist is simply fooling himself. Times are indeed changing, but a man will always be seen as the primary bread winner unless advertised otherwise. Men are automatically seen as more professional and women are more likely to be perceived as a support person. It is absolutely true that a guy can be very direct and rude and subordinates will perceive him as 'tough', or 'no nonsense'. Women are of course perceived as 'bitchy' or 'whiny'.

Do I personally miss male privilege? Hell yes. I had a great career and as the youngest Sr Manager in my company, I was also the only one who was not yet a VP, but it was certainly on the horizon. After transition, my department was basically dissolved.
I have yet to regain the traction that I once had in my career. Is it because I'm a woman? Is it because I'm trans?

Who knows, but It was definitely nicer to be perceived as a straight white dude.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i was a vp in my company for many years....there were a bunch of us...over the years as my turn came up to sr vp, a woman was given the title...she was great but i had demonstrably more impact and made the company much more money... but we were criticized for not enough women on the board and in mgmt...so she became the senior vp and a big deal was made of it.... how ironic!!!!

also not sure what you mean by personalizing it...when a guy said i had a good business mind for a woman, that felt very personal.... i had power over him and i fired him...that felt very personal...
it was male privilege gone bad for him...he f'd with the wrong lady..... lol.... as a further aside, the businessman partner i was working with told me at first he didnt want to do our deal because i was a woman...

fyi prior to retiring i worked in and around wall street...women are second class citizens for sure...and the only women that get respect are the types that stay on the conference call for big deals while they are giving birth...

[Frances]

And in my profession, women rule every aspect. Men are considered intrinsically inadequate and cannot climb the ladder. Personal experiences don't prove anything. People and situations are complex. The concept of men are bad and have it easy, and women are good and have it hard is ridiculous. Everything should be evaluated on a case by case basis. Second class citizens don't have the privilege of not being drafted, rejecting partenhood, living on someone else's dime without judgement or not go to jail as long. Can't we just address injustices without making blanket judgements and adjustments?

[Marcelle]

Don't try to personalize 'male privilege'. Too many people are clueless to the concept and willfully ignorant to the practice.

I hope I am not misconstruing your comment Melissa and correct me if I am wrong. I think what Melissa meant was that if you make the concept of male privilege personal you loose sight of the fact it is a very real concept. Yes, I think we can all agree that not every male born on the earth just sits back and lets the "good times roll" reaching the dizzying heights of success without so much as lifting a finger. Indeed many work extremely hard to get where they are and if things don't work out they work harder. The same can be said for women, visible minorities and so on. However what cannot be denied is that on average women early 77 cents on the dollar to men, glass ceilings exist and men will always be seen (and yes it is changing . . . albeit slowly) as more credible.

I spent my life in the military and to some degree women can achieve as much as men. In the Canadian military women can gravitate to combat roles and some have been progressing steadily to command position albeit at a much slower rate then their male counterparts. I have heard comments such as "she's pretty strong, for a woman" or "not bad for a girl" when it comes to working in a combat role. Contrarily I have never heard "he's pretty strong, for a dude" or "not bad for a guy" in the same situations. So while strides are being made, as a guy I get immediate "street cred" based on the fact I am a dude even though there are women who are just as tactically sound as me (if not more). Does it negate my hard work? Nope, it is just something that is pervasive and some will latch on to it and do little to attain, while others will ride the wave and still work hard.

Interesting story. As some may know, I am out completely at work as gender fluid and spent the last week working as a woman. I was in a meeting as the resident subject matter expert (an all male cast) . . . it is the first time I was talked over. I mean literally dismissed as if I had nothing to add. Heck I was half expecting someone to ask me to go fetch coffee. It took me reverting to guy voice and mannerisms to get that put to rest but even then, it was a hard sell. A year ago, that would never have happened. It was very surreal.

Cheers

Isha

[flatlander_48]

Sorry, I have to laugh at some of this discussion. In a few cases, it almost seems like this is new information. That's funny. For me, the truth is this: I've been bumping up against male privilege for the better part of 66 years, only I know it better as White Male Privilege.

Folks, this is NOT a new social construct. It is something that society has not been successful in getting themselves out from under. Reason being is that there MUST be a benefit to someone.

And as I said earlier, women experience male privilege as sexism. Strictly speaking, that is what those here who are M2F are experiencing.


Yeah, the assumptions about privilege from a lot of people is that there is male privilege and then none for everyone else. There is plenty of female privilege, cis gendered privilege, young and old folks privilege and so on.

There is one significant difference that you don't account for. None of those groups are likely to go through a significant change of status. Even Young to Old, takes a considerable time. Conversely, when people transition, it occurs in a relatively short period of time, in the grand scheme of things. So, the contrast in going from having male privilege to not having it should be pretty distinct.

DeeAnn

[Badtranny]

I think what Melissa meant was that if you make the concept of male privilege personal you loose sight of the fact it is a very real concept.

Yes. Thanks for clarifying.



Interesting story. As some may know, I am out completely at work as gender fluid and spent the last week working as a woman. I was in a meeting as the resident subject matter expert (an all male cast) . . . it is the first time I was talked over. I mean literally dismissed as if I had nothing to add. Heck I was half expecting someone to ask me to go fetch coffee. It took me reverting to guy voice and mannerisms to get that put to rest but even then, it was a hard sell. A year ago, that would never have happened. It was very surreal.

...and that was exactly my experience as well. Minus the male voice thing. :-)

Gaining respect of alpha males as a man was much easier for sure. Luckily, since I was never an alpha myself I developed tactics that serve me well in my new boob suit. I just don't understand why this isn't a universal experience for trans women. Trans men pretty much universally say that male privilege is real and they love it.

Cheers

Isha[/QUOTE]

[Rogina B]

Gaining respect of alpha males as a man was much easier for sure. Luckily, since I was never an alpha myself I developed tactics that serve me well in my new boob suit.

If the boobs are too big then they will NEVER pay attention to what comes out of your mouth..Sad,but too true.

[cheryl reeves]

male privalege had nothing to do with getting me my first trucking job,it was me working my arse off showing i could do it,i knew plenty of women who could outdrive many of their counterparts..i just had a way of speaking that could shut the mourh of any alpha male..just like with white privilege whats that for i seem to miss out on a lot..sigh

[becky77]

I just don't understand why this isn't a universal experience for trans women.


There seems to be a lot of people arguing the case for male privilege, I don't really think anyone is saying it doesn't exist and its not very real?

It's still a man's world.

As an example:
I need to go and buy a round of drinks, I'm not comfortable with doing it, I go to the bar and patiently wait and it takes me ages as somehow other guys get served first. Eventually the female bartender notices me and I get served. (This happened so often to the point my wife would go, as she has a more forceful nature than me).
Next round is my brothers, he strides forward pushes his way in and very quickly he is served.

The difference is my brother is comfortable and confident in his male role and as such unknowingly expects to get served quickly and exerts his power. He wouldn't think twice that the lady on the left was waiting before he got there, me I would have pointed to her to be served first. My brother is a typical guy that without knowing fully takes advantage of male privilege. He can be almost arrogant at times and can't understand why he can't always get his way.

So when it comes to living as a woman, I'm still struggling to get served and I don't really notice much of a difference. But had my brother transitioned he wouldn't know what hit him, because he doesn't know any different.

Using one of Lea's examples:
I'm in a restaurant and I'm handed the wine list, I never noticed this as it wasn't important to me. I would go through it with my wife and agree what to pick, because I naturally see us on the same level I also wouldn't have noticed if the wine list was handed to her first.
So again, now I'm transitioned and the wine list is handed to someone else I don't even register it.
I don't know what half the wines are and I have no issue asking the waiter for a recommendation.
But I know guys that play up to choosing the wine like it's another way to prove their competence, they would possibly be aggrieved if the wine list was handed to a woman.

My argument wasn't that men have privilege, that's obvious.
It's that I didn't immerse myself in it enough for me to notice it gone.
Sure I notice what is now sexism, but that irritates me in a different way. I'm thinking you're an arse, not "oh no, my male privilege has gone".

[charlenesomeone]

Here is an article about male privilege by a male. Lots of great info in links in the article.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/proof-male-privilege/

[Frances]

There is one significant difference that you don't account for. None of those groups are likely to go through a significant change of status. Even Young to Old, takes a considerable time. Conversely, when people transition, it occurs in a relatively short period of time, in the grand scheme of things. So, the contrast in going from having male privilege to not having it should be pretty distinct.

I don't know. We all have diferent circomstances in life. With the way I used to look and sound, privilege was not meted out to me that much. People did not give me anything; they did not even understand me. Transitioning allowed me to be seen and be listened to. It's almost like my way of expressing myself all of a sudden made sense. I went from very little privilege to a lot more. I am not trans-noticed, so I experience cis-gendered female privilege, which is something that a lot of transgendered women will not experience. Like I said somewhere else on this forum, I did not change gender, I changed sex.

It's not a question of "all the privilege and then none." If being handed the menu means a lot to you (the general you), then think long and hard about transition.

[LeaP]

I just don't understand why this isn't a universal experience for trans women. Trans men pretty much universally say that male privilege is real and they love it.


That is the most interesting comment in the conversation. Perhaps we don't miss what we take for granted. I bet the behaviors are ingrained enough that most still act on them anyway ... protestations of from-cradle femininity notwithstanding.

[Gerrijerry]

Yes. I believe everyone thinks about it sooner or later.
However, it would be just a passing thought while being who you are now.
Life is very complicated, not even close to an exact science. People always think what if I didn't do this or that? Did I do the correct thing?
That is all normal. The trick is to move on and just enjoy life.

[Badtranny]

Yes. I believe everyone thinks about it sooner or later..

You may believe it, but that don't make it true.

I have never regretted transition and I have never missed being a man. If my friends are being honest with me, (and why wouldn't they?) I don't know any other Trans girl who regrets living out loud either.

Though I think we all wish the world would relax a little bit.

[arbon]

Life is very complicated, not even close to an exact science. People always think what if I didn't do this or that? Did I do the correct thing?


Is that the same as missing being a guy or some aspects of it? There were many times in my transition I questioned if I was doing he right thing or not, and even a few times when I did regret what I had done. But that was not for missing the guy I was, it was from external pressures (dealing with the losses, family, friends, the job). The trip was hard for awhile. Sometimes it seemed to hard and I would have been better off where I was.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you beat me to it...

outside of a major WTF meltdown I had about 3 months prior to full time I can honestly say I never regretted anything..

here's the thing, when you live out your nature authentically the thought doesn't even occur to you...there is nothing to think about...at least for me..

[karenpayneoregon]

As it happens, this week I was thinking of my former identity as a male and for the life of me many aspects of that life I have either completely forgotten or had trouble remembering. Bottom line, I don't miss being a male at all.

[PretzelGirl]

Interesting story. As some may know, I am out completely at work as gender fluid and spent the last week working as a woman. I was in a meeting as the resident subject matter expert (an all male cast) . . . it is the first time I was talked over. I mean literally dismissed as if I had nothing to add. Heck I was half expecting someone to ask me to go fetch coffee. It took me reverting to guy voice and mannerisms to get that put to rest but even then, it was a hard sell. A year ago, that would never have happened. It was very surreal.

That sucks....and is very real. I have had a great experience at work. Great enough to be wondering if I still carried some level of privilege because those I had worked with pre-transition (most everyone) just treated me the same way because that is how they always treated me. If this is true, then it will start (or has) sliding away slowly until someday I will notice it is gone. My similar story is that this week, I had someone dismissing me, which is new. I asserted myself hard and was a little worked up. As I walked away with two old friends, I told them that if he did that again, I would go all low voice on him.

[flatlander_48]

I don't know. We all have diferent circomstances in life. With the way I used to look and sound, privilege was not meted out to me that much. People did not give me anything; they did not even understand me. Transitioning allowed me to be seen and be listened to. It's almost like my way of expressing myself all of a sudden made sense. I went from very little privilege to a lot more. I am not trans-noticed, so I experience cis-gendered female privilege, which is something that a lot of transgendered women will not experience. Like I said somewhere else on this forum, I did not change gender, I changed sex.

It's not a question of "all the privilege and then none." If being handed the menu means a lot to you (the general you), then think long and hard about transition.

First, privilege does not necessarily mean that you were given anything. The main principle is the assumption of difference. Said another way, first among equals. As I said, it is like air. The way the culture works, it surrounds us whether you are aware or not; whether you take advantage or not. You may not see it, but that doesn't mean that it is not present.

Don't hang you hat on the wine list example. It is merely an example to show how this construct occurs without asking for anything. The waiter would be deferential because he/she thinks that the male expects this treatment. The male customer would not need to ask.

Also, be aware that the full effect of male privilege to more powerful than female privilege. And further, perhaps you could say that female privilege exists because males allow it to. Now, I said Perhaps; it is just a theory.

DeeAnn

[Frances]

It's not prective model (a theory). It's a dogmatic ideology that requires a major confirmation bias and a healthy does of misandery.

I am starting to think that most CDers forumites were major white alpha males before transition.

Like I said, I feel more "privileged" now that before. Like Marilyn Monroe said "I don't mind living in a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it."

Being clocked negates any chances of experiencing cis-gendered female privilege. The transitioner who gets read has less privilege than any cis-gendered woman. It sucks, but it's a fact. Black males also experience less privilege than white males (the major demographic of this forum).

I am NOT SAYING that male privilege does not exist. I am saying that there is female privilege as well and that every group has privileges and hardships. For one, women have the privilege of not being labelled potential pedophiles and forced to change seats if they are seated next to unaccompanied children in a plane.

I am not a crossdresser. I am a post-op woman who transitioned socially six years ago. Don't you think I have a good idea of what it means to live as man and as a woman in the world?

One more thing, I am not American. I live in a society that is mostly unreligious and egalitarian. Patriarchal hierarchies are not de facto where I live.

[Dana44]

It is a male world. This country gave womanhood a foot up on the ladder of equality. Yet when I was working in the corporate environment, there certainly was a male code. Tall males were always on top. There were a few women and they had to play the game. I remember many men saying they would never work for a woman. I am a male typically. Went to a convention last week and had to be the male self as I am publicly known as one. Yet I saw a publisher editor who was regarded well and she appeared to be a strong woman. But as the back cover of my books show, I am a male author.

[flatlander_48]

It's not prective model (a theory). It's a dogmatic ideology that requires a major confirmation bias and a healthy does of misandery.

It was offered as an unresearched guess. No more, no less.


I am starting to think that most CDers forumites were major white alpha males before transition.

Perhaps, but there is no way to tell. There don't seem to be many people here that know other members.


Like I said, I feel more "privileged" now that before. Like Marilyn Monroe said "I don't mind living in a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it."

Yes, but remember the phrase: "Well behaved women seldom make history..." which is another way of saying that one probably needs to be outside of the usual limited expectations held for women in order to truly shine. Very difficult otherwise.


I am NOT SAYING that male privilege does not exist. I am saying that there is female privilege as well and that every group has privileges and hardships. For one, women have the privilege of not being labelled potential pedophiles and forced to change seats if they are seated next to unaccompanied children in a plane.

Consider this in relative terms. When it comes to major things like promotions and raises in the workplace, for example, female privilege won't help much.


I am not a crossdresser. I am a post-op woman who transitioned socially six years ago. Don't you think I have a good idea of what it means to live as man and as a woman in the world?

Yes, it is a unique opportunity to witness both sides of the same coin. However, what I've said is based on looking at the construct of privilege and how it works. It is not based specifically on looking at this from a crossdresser or transsexual perspective. The construct exists first. The crossdresser or transsexual aspect is just an additional twist, but the construct remains the same.

As I've said, from the female perspective, we know what we've been talking about as sexism. All of the ISMS (sexism, racism, agism, homophobia, disability discrimination, etc.) work in the same manner. Some people are afforded "more than" status and others are afforded "less than" status. The basis for this is things that we cannot change: our sex (in the inherent sense), our race, our LGB status, our age, etc.


One more thing, I am not American. I live in a society that is mostly unreligious and egalitarian. Patriarchal hierarchies are not de facto where I live.

While I don't know where you live, I will say this. Offhand, I don't know of any countries where women outnumber men in local, regional and national government. Also offhand, I don't know of any countries where women outnumber men in technical and scientific occupations. So, if these situations do occur someplace, I don't know about it. But, you have to wonder why these imbalances exist.

You mention female privilege, but obviously it isn't enough to change the situations I mentioned. In all seriousness, the world would look considerably different if female privilege were the equal of male privilege.

DeeAnn

[becky77]

Perhaps actually listen to what Frances is saying, rather than hammering home what she already knows?

She doesn't need a lesson in male privilege, she isn't denying it's existence.

If you don't understand her perspective than just say that, I don't really know your history but you sound like a man, telling a woman how she must think like you?

[Nigella]

Ok this thread is now done, it has gone way past the original OP