This is more than Crossdressing !

[Teresa]

I've managed to get my Sunday treat, the wife starts work at 8.00am and won't be back till 4.00pm .

Walked the dog totally underdressed , I have to wear a jacket otherwise the skirt is visible through the open pockets on my over-trousers .
When I get back take off the top layer pop in my forms some lipstick and heels and I'm ready to start cleaning the house. I enjoy it so much catching glimpses of my stockinged legs and heels as I vacuum, after a while I forget to check the windows, and someone came to post a village news letter, I may have had my back to them while in the hallway with the Dyson.

As I sat down to lunch I began to think about the comfort zone I was in, if my wife walked in I would have been totally comfortable with it, she wouldn't of approved but she knows I dress when I clean.
I've read so many comments from members about their comfort zone around the house, and the acceptance level of their partners and also the usual boundary of not taking it into the bedroom ! Reading between the lines I get the feeling that many would love to take it into the bedroom if permitted . My feeling is and I think many others will agree that it's something we want to share with our partners and no one else !

This is more than crossdressing, so what is the desire to let out and show a side of us that a man doesn't normally do ! So what do we call it a female trait ? Or is it as some have suggested before a stage of transition ?
It may sound odd to some people but it doesn't feel odd to be partially female with various stages of dress and makeup/wig and want to be with a person you love and share it with them, it feels the most natural thing in the World !
Whatever it is women don't have the trait and can never fully understand what or why we're doing what we do ! Personally it hurts me a great deal to have had that side of me rejected for so long, I feel that's it damaging the part my wife does wish to see which is the man she married .

[Krisi]

First, a woman wouldn't wear high heels to vacuum the house. Only on TV or the movies and only fifty years ago.

Second, most of us would probably like to take our dressing into the bedroom and fantasize that we are lesbians making love to a woman, but if you turn the situation around, would you enjoy it if you were not a crossdresser or not cross dressed and your wife wanted to present herself as a man and do (I'm trying to phrase this so my post won't get deleted) "gay" things to you? Probably not.

There have been just a couple times when my wife and Krisi "did the deed", but for the most part it's "Take your boobs off first." from her.

[Teresa]

Krisi,
I get your point but it's not what I'm asking, it's describing our feelings beyond just CDing !

Yes I do know all about it going into the bedroom but I'm afraid not with my wife but an ex GF/ fiance ! I won't go into further details !!
I am now permitted to wear nighties in bed as an acceptable way of sleeping better but that's all !

[Krisi]

I'm sure that's what has your wife worried. Your "feelings beyond just CDing." As a young girl, your wife probably dreamed of marrying a prince on a white horse. Now she finds that her prince on a white horse may have turned into a princess wearing a tu tu.

Like most of us, when I told my wife I was a crossdresser, her questions were: "Are you Gay?" and "Do you want to turn into a woman?" Of course I answered "No" to both and that's the truth. I still have all my original parts and have not added anything permanent. And I'm not taking hormones.

If you are a crossdresser and nothing more, try to make that clear to your wife and reassure her every chance you get. If you feel you are a transsexual, partly female, female inside, etc., that's a different story and your wife may not accept that and that's understandable. It may be best for you to each go your separate ways. That way, she can find a man and you can be a woman or whatever you might end up as.

[cindyinsatin]

While I understand why my wife wants no part of my crossdressing, I still yearn to be able to share that side of me. Even though I find women's clothing more comfortable and flattering i think it threatens the concept of being a 'man' for my wife.

I enjoy the role playing aspect of dressing in female attire. I also dress very feminine while cleaning house...think June Cleaver. I also like to dress as if I am 'going to the office' when I have desk work to do. Naturally I would like to extend that into the bedroom. But I can understand her desire to have no part of it.

Funny, for all of her liberal sensibilities...very much a not in her backyard mentality!

Cindy

[Teresa]

Krisi,
My wife has taken partial retirement there's no way she's going to take on a new man . I'm about to start gender counselling to answer some of those questions I can't see me making any drastic changes but I think I owe it to myself and family to try and get some definite answers ! I can't say what happens after that but I hope some sensible constructive talking .

[pamela7]

Teresa, this is a yearning inside all men, to have the "anima" returned, i.e.the feminine side. Today I have asked for and received some pampering - why the hell not???? I'm also wearing in my 3" heels, and learning to walk them better, and I've been cooking most the morning - it's all part of life!

[Teresa]

Pamela,
Did you mean a yearning in every CDing male or all men ?
If you meant all men I'm afraid I could give you some examples within my family circle where I would have to dispute that comment .

The crux of my thread is what are we when it feels beyond just dressing, are we all on various stages of a transition curve ? I do recall a thread from Isha along these lines, I hope she picks on this to make a comment .

[Belle Cri]

I'm doing largely the same. Cleaning, bread sitting to rise, planning tonights' menu, couple of conference calls on a EUR ??m tranche, in my 3.5 really cute cork wedges, the usual. I kissed her and packed her off to work with a pat on the bum. Very Ozzie and Harriet, I know that. It extends, to put it politely, into every single room in the house shall we say? (see I am trying).

I can't imagine the pain of hanging in a relationship where you feel in some sense fundamentally rejected. Well, yes I can actually as at least one of my divorces will attest. I certainly do not mean to forecast.

To your trait question, my answer will echo Pamela's. We are collectively taught that males are to be the epitome of the warrior/hunter gatherer, and that all other functions are secondary. This is, of course except in a very ritualized and specific set of threat scenarios, entirely untrue. It is however, an immensely convenient system for males to organize and/or dominate other males into collective obedience.

Now, mess with that and you mess with not only an engrammatic received archetype, but also a very fundamental power structure, right down to your own marriage. The response is often backlash, a leaping to assign some notional sexual perversion as the cause (in my case, hell, they are quite independent LOL), and an utter failure to recognize the falsity of the male/female dichotomy. I believe that in my own case it is not so much a matter of thinking looking or being x or y % female, it is simply an expression of my natural self absent the constraints of a false imposed order. So to toss words around, I believe these issues are, or very much should be, truly transcendent of considerations of gender.

As long as we're on putative neologisms, I believe I now prefer the term Transcendent to Transvestite, although that could be a real intellectual groaner. I'll have to get the polish out on that one.

[Krisi]

Teresa, don't count on that but even if she's not ready to take on a new man, don't be confident that she won't leave you. Just as some things she might do would be unacceptable to you, some things you might do would be unacceptable to her.

Counseling might help but in the end, it's you who must figure it out for yourself.

[pamela7]

if you wait long enough you will see those lost aspects return in alzheimer-ish old age, old men feminise, old women masculate, however its spelled?!
just cos its outside the body of the person does not mean their soul does not yearn for it to return, but that's a whole story, and while spirituality is not religion such talk is probably contrary to the odd rule or two. ;-)

[Katey888]

Got this image stuck in my mind now...


Walked the dog totally underdressed

... it's like the dog equivalent of Jessica Rabbit - a spaniel in a basque... :lol: but how do you get under the fur...? :confused:

On this:


This is more than crossdressing, so what is the desire to let out and show a side of us that a man doesn't normally do ! So what do we call it a female trait ? Or is it as some have suggested before a stage of transition ?

If I try to think of this objectively - putting together: cleaning in heels; taking it into the bedroom (and your self-admitted sexual aspect to dressing); female trait or transition...? No - I don't think so... I just think you have a cleaning and clothing fetish - I don't see how the über-feminising of household tasks has anything to do with being a female in the wrong body...??

Sorry - I think your underdressed dog is barking up an incorrect tree here... :)

Katey x

[CarlaWestin]

Teresa, I feel the 'more than just crossdressing' all the time. I usually dress to a feeling or a theme or to a particular outfit. This morning, it was buxom with wasp waist (See thread about corset challenge). And now I'm just back to drab, no makeup or wig, carhartt shorts and striped t-shirt, waiting for wife to wake up. But, along with the panties I wear exclusively, I've left on the large bra and forms I've been wearing since I went to bed last night. I just can't get enough of being in the zone. We need to go out shopping today and I wouldn't have an issue with just heading out, big boobies and all. It just feels so, well, elevating. Could this desire to be in the zone be like the feeling of wanting a couple of drinks?

(Hey, Kate. Too funny!)

[Sarah-RT]

My feeling is and I think many others will agree that it's something we want to share with our partners and no one else !

I agree Teresa, While I would replace SO with friends/family since I am single but in terms of hanging out, having dinner or watching a film on tv, I relish the thought of doing that as female with them but not so much about the general public being involved. And thats not a case of im afraid to be outdoors and seen but I wouldnt be interacting with the public apart from walking by them, if I could cut that part out of it then things would be all the better.

In terms of a sexual nature thats a bit different, while I would say I would like to do that, I dont think I would all the time, and its something another person would find a challenge unless they were pansexual or bisexual and if its a conflict to them then they wont be in the mood to do the deed, and you can fault them for that, your attracted to what you are attracted to and trying to humour or avoid hurting someones feelings doesnt really fit into that mix.

Sarah x

[docrobbysherry]

Teresa, I'm a CD and I must agree with u on one point at least.

Posts like yours, "I like to clean the house dressed", and, "I'm not attracted to men unless dressed", have me scratching my head!:eek:

How can changing your clothes make u want to do something u wouldn't ordinarily want to do!?

This is definitely NOT the same CDing I experience! Unless those things r fetishes for U? I have a number of those myself. But, sex with guys and house cleaning r NOT on that list!:straightface:

I used to have fantasies about having sex with a GG as Sherry. I guess those r long gone now? Since I was in bed with a stunning GG last nite doing a new Sherry story. And, all I thot of was getting our poses correct!:sad:

[ReineD]

This is more than crossdressing, so what is the desire to let out and show a side of us that a man doesn't normally do ! So what do we call it a female trait ? Or is it as some have suggested before a stage of transition ?

Why do you call what you do, "more than crossdressing"?

What do you think CDing is, and why do you think that the enjoyment you experience is a stage of transition?

My SO does everything you do (well, not clean house in heels and hose because it is impractical ... even GGs don't do this). But, my SO has gone out for years, fully dressed and presenting as a woman to just about every place he can go to as a male: restaurants, cafés, art galleries, retail stores, grocery stores, banks, etc. We have gone on vacations where the male clothes were left at home, my SO has had makeovers, professional photo shoots, has gone to week-long TG conventions, has pierced his ears, had laser facial beard removal, has his own long hair tied at the nape in guy mode, shaves his body on a regular basis, keeps his fingernails long and shaped. This is all CDing. My SO is not TS and is not transitioning. My SO is gender flexible and he knows he is a guy. People tend to go as far as they believe they can get away with without experiencing too many negative consequences. So, just because one CDer has a fully supportive partner and can do all the things my SO does, does not mean s/he is TS and transitioning.

As to bringing it in the bedroom, I agree with you that if they could, likely most CDers would opt to do this as well. The CDing tends to be sexual for a lot of people, or it does have sexual aspects.

[Teresa]

Reine,
I guess I'm thinking of the literal translation which is simply to wear clothes of the opposite sex as we all know ! Most of us are well beyond that literal meaning so what am I when I wish to share certain female traits with my wife , it's not just the sexual aspect I'm talking about.
To me your partner ( sorry I still don't like the term SO !) is more than a CDer so to you what does that make him/her ?

Katie,
Sorry dear you've missed my meaning , being dressed when cleaning is not the subject , it's defining where the feelings put me on the gender line !
As for my dog she's a black Labrador and has never crossdressed in her life, not a good thing to be reported to the RSPCA for making a dog wear a corset !

Sherry,
I think you've misunderstood something but I'm attracted to women no matter how I'm dressed, I have no interest in men sexually in any guise ! I was talking about the comfort zone of being dressed and happily cleaning, and why I couldn't share that feeling but what or who was I sharing it as with my wife ? A male companion, or a female companion so what does that make me and others like me ?

Belle,
Thanks for the reply, I think I got the gist but still trying to translate the full meaning !

[ReineD]

Reine,
I guess I'm thinking of the literal translation which is simply to wear clothes of the opposite sex as we all know ! Most of us are well beyond that literal meaning so what am I when I wish to share certain female traits with my wife , it's not just the sexual aspect I'm talking about.
To me your partner ( sorry I still don't like the term SO !) is more than a CDer so to you what does that make him/her ?

But what I'm telling you is, there is a huge chunk of people here who dress, go out, enjoy looking feminine (more than just wearing girl clothes and presenting as a guy), who are not transitioning. Why do you think that the enjoyment of wearing hose, heels, wig, makeup, forms, etc is "more than CDing"?

So by your definition then, the vast majority of members here are in transition? +? +? +?

[Sandie70]

I love to dress at home. But if I did my house cleaning while dressed, I would have to pretend I also have a son named "Beaver." (gosh, Beev, I wonder how many of the younger gals got that? lol). But now that I think about it, it would be kind of sexy to buy a French maids outfit for the days I vacuum and mop.

The fact is, it is always a pleasure to go en femme, whether in or out.

And Teresa, I would love to be a door-to-door salesman who knocks on your door and have it opened by such a beautiful woman.

[Teresa]

Reine,
I recall Isha raising the same question about the levels of transition, OK different labels were thrown in that one as well and the confusion over the different interpretations ! If you can't find a different or better word then your assumption is correct !

If I just wanted to crossdress I wouldn't want my wife to see but when there other feelings involved and a strong urge to share it with my her sexually or not ,then it there it has to be something more than just CDing .
I take your point about some who just want to be out and show how good and passable they can be , I've dipped my toe in that water ! So I accept my thoughts don't apply to everyone but there appears to be as many who have commented along the lines of my thread in the past .

Sandie,
My son is booking his deliveries to us on a regular basis so someone is going to get a surprise or a shock depending on their outlook at some point in the future !

[Belle Cri]

Belle,
Thanks for the reply, I think I got the gist but still trying to translate the full meaning !

Oh dear, I get that rather a lot lol.

[Marcelle]

Hi Teresa,

I understand what you are saying but I think where it gets confusing is the term/label issue again and how one defines the term "cross dressing". For some it will mean simply dressing in the opposite gender clothing (no make-up, no forms, no wig) just reveling in the clothing and enjoying oneself. For others it might mean going full bore . . . clothing, wig, make-up, forms, padding and hitting a local bar and enjoying oneself. Comfort level in one's dressing will vary again from person to person where some might just enjoy doing so in the privacy of their home doing stereotypical feminine past-times (cleaning the house, cooking, watching chick flicks) where others may enjoy being the vanilla world just doing things they would normally do as a man but dressed and presenting as a woman.

I truly believe it becomes more than "cross dressing" (again just a label) when emotionally you cannot continue in your birth sex assigned gender for whatever reason and the desire to be the target gender is so overwhelming that it consumes you. Now again, this could be permanent as in the case of our TS members or transitory. By transitory it could be one day, two days, three or more but the identity is woman and you loose sight of the guy. In my particular case, this is day six of identifying as a woman and even dressing as a guy is difficult (had to do it one time to get a male building pass for work). However, I can feel him knocking on the door and I suspect that tomorrow I will be back to guy but she will always be there waiting for her time.

So, if you are saying that emotionally, you need to dress in order be seen and identify as a woman then it is likely "it is more that cross dressing" (again I stress this is just an arbitrary label) . . . the key point IMHO is that when you are dressed, the guy does not exist on any level it is just the woman you wish to be which is more than a comfort thing it is a necessity. Now before anyone gets all Kamikaze on me . . . this is how I see things and it may be totally wrong as each of use defines ourselves within our own parameters and this is how I see myself :)

Cheers

Isha

[Kate Simmons]

How we approach becoming what I call a "full spectrum person", that is accepting and being in touch with all of our feelings seems to be unique for all of us.:)

[Belle Cri]

You know I've been thinking about the transitory issue. Obviously I can look back from point x and carry to y and say yes, there has been a marked transition, but I don't feel transitory nor do I have and end goal or any particular gender role in mind - I simply enjoy both genders too much and both a critical to my identity. I would like to become more naturally female, and I am, however that is not the expense of my 'maleness' in any sense, nor would I want it to be, Now perhaps that places me at a point on the definitional spectrum, but to me that is rather like asking what percentage of a disfavored minority are you really?

So in that respect, I simply find myself as I am - not much choice on that really, I have to stare at my mug every morning before coffee and makeup, and if that is not condign penance, god knows what is! LOL!

[PaulaQ]

It's really amusing to read a thread like this, and hear opinions from people who still focus on exactly the wrong things in your narrative, even though they've been dealing with the same stuff themselves for decades. I'll grant a pass to the cisgender people who chime in, as they lack a basic capacity to understand any of this. Isha, unsurprisingly, gets it and is on point.

How do you feel if you do these things, walk the dog, do housework, etc. if you aren't CDed? How do you feel if you don't CD for quite a while? What drives you to tell others about your CDing? What do you feel when you don't get acceptance? Why would you paint a portrait of yourself as a woman? How would you have felt if you'd painted a self-portrait of yourself as a man? It's the things not said, the negative feelings, your feelings about your male life that are important.

The fact that rather few women would vacuum the house in heels and hose (I wouldn't either, btw), is really neither here or there in my opinion. What really drives what you do? Is it the reward (masturbation), or a punishment (horrible feelings alleviated by doing things presenting as female)? Which of the two is stronger?


Whatever it is women don't have the trait and can never fully understand what or why we're doing what we do !

Well certainly there are such women. Some among them, we call men.

[Belle Cri]

Paula -

I certainly don't mean to appear hostile, and it is probably a function of my own lack of fluency with the terminology, however I'm having trouble taking your point or drawing the lesson - would you please mind elucidating?

Thanks,

Belle

[Claire Cook]

Hi Teresa,

I guess I'll chime in here too. I think our den mother Reine (and Isha, and Paula) have cut to the quick. I've always had a strong female part of me. Like Reine's SO, I often present as female and feel natural in doing so. And in general I am treated as such. I feel many of the things you express in your OP (but no, I don't do housework in stockings and heels!). Yet I am a crossdresser -- if we need a definition, one who wears clothes normally appropriate for the opposite gender. (I admit that I am certainly transgendered, but [oh my, there is that old argument again] TG in the broad sense includes CD'ing.) But as I have stated in numerous posts, I have no intention of transitioning, in the sense that I am not considering HRT or any sort of surgery -- or foregoing male presentation. The clothes for me just feel natural and normal.

So to respond to your point, you are crossdressing -- like Reine's SO, like Isha, like many of us. Where you fit in the TG spectrum that includes us all is another question. But perhaps that was your point.

Warm hugs,

Claire

[Teresa]

Isha,
I hope you don't me quoting your previous thread on this but it's stuck in my mind and again you make exactly the point this time .
We don't want to get tied down with labels but we need to know the right terms to try and explain where we are and just a CDer doesn't fit my description or all my feelings !

Paula,
I could make the same comments to you as I did Isha, I know you have all the labels but using correctly is a problem I may have and possibly others .
I really must get some flats to do the cleaning, 3.5" heels aren't ideal to to push the Dyson around in ! I've mentioned before that I'm struggling to function at the moment , I pointed out to my wife it's better if I've done menial jobs than nothing at all !

[stefan37]

GD is a very insidious condition. It is controllable until it's not. The only way you can get relief is to present and express until you feel comfortable. Keeping it bottled up only makes it worse. Wishing others can understand and accept is a fools game. If your wife hasn't accepted it by this time and from your previous posts doesn't appear to ever want to accept it. You must then do what is best for you. There are members here that are able to reach a level of comfort by living part time. Others only need to under dress. Only you can determine how far you need to go to find your level where the GD is tolerable.

[PaulaQ]

I've mentioned before that I'm struggling to function at the moment , I pointed out to my wife it's better if I've done menial jobs than nothing at all !

Labels really are for soup cans. At the end of the day, they are only useful if they feel right on you and help you learn about yourself. Having others apply them to you, and expecting you to conform to their ideal never works - it's what's wrong with our world, or at least one of the things.

The part I've quoted is what, in my opinion, you should focus on, as well as what you need to do about it. No one but you can answer that latter part, although many would help you, even should your path be rather different from ours.

And yes, flats are much more practical for cleaning. There are some really cute flats available too. :)

@stefan37 - bingo.

[ReineD]

I think where it gets confusing is the term/label issue again and how one defines the term "cross dressing". For some it will mean simply dressing in the opposite gender clothing (no make-up, no forms, no wig) just reveling in the clothing and enjoying oneself. For others it might mean going full bore . . . clothing, wig, make-up, forms, padding and hitting a local bar and enjoying oneself. Comfort level in one's dressing will vary again from person to person where some might just enjoy doing so in the privacy of their home doing stereotypical feminine past-times (cleaning the house, cooking, watching chick flicks) where others may enjoy being the vanilla world just doing things they would normally do as a man but dressed and presenting as a woman.

Exactly. And the length to which a person decides to go depends on a multitude of things: do they live in an area with no privacy or anonymity or can they leave their homes dressed with just a bit of planning; do they live a lifetime believing they will be lynched should they go out in public only to discover that for the most part, strangers do keep their opinions to themselves; is there someone at home they are keeping this from which makes leaving home dressed difficult; do they feel they are reasonably passable (some members have said there is no way, with their frames and physiognomies, they could get away with dressing in public without standing out like a sore thumb); do they feel they can tell selected people they enjoy presenting as a woman occasionally without experiencing severe negative circumstances; are their personalities such that the opinion of others does not matter to them; ... and I'm sure other factors not mentioned here.



I truly believe it becomes more than "cross dressing" (again just a label) when emotionally you cannot continue in your birth sex assigned gender for whatever reason and the desire to be the target gender is so overwhelming that it consumes you.

Isha, CDing brings with it a strong and sometimes overpowering desire to crossdress, like a severe itch that must be scratched. It is consuming even for people who identify as male. I dare say it is the nature of the beast and it is important to note that the consuming-nature of the CDing fluctuates, even though we would be hard-pressed to convince a CDer who is in the midst of Pink Fog that it does fluctuate.

We just need to look around this forum at the lengths that closeted CDers go to in order to dress. Otherwise honest men will lie or "non-disclose" and sneak around sometimes. Also I know this is not a part of Teresa's or your situation, but how many CDers even compromise their marriages when they secretly create femme profiles on dating sites and hook up with men even if only through email or chat. The drive to CD must be strong indeed for people to do this. Some people have thousands of pictures of themselves dressed, and look at the size of the closets that some CDers have. People do not accumulate hundreds of bras, panties, and shoes, etc when they can simply take it or leave it. If the decision to label it "CDing" depended on how consuming this can be, then everyone in this community would be "more than a CDer".

Whatever it is that pushes a man who will not transition to want to experience femininity ... people have different ways of explaining it to themselves. There are disagreements in this forum over labels - some people will say it is a compulsion, others will say it is gender ID (whether fluctuating female ID, androgyny, gender-fluidity). But no matter how a person self-explains it, the drive is not less for one or the other. For the most part, if a person is not TS, things do settle down eventually as long as there is no repression and people do find a balance that works for them. The proof of this is how people ultimately do choose to lead their lives once the initial exploration, which can and does take years, is over with. (OK ... not to leave them out but some people do identify as TS even though they live and will continue to live as male and they have every right to do so ... but this is a label-debate best left for another thread).

[Suzanne F]

For me it is simple. It is not about clothes but how I feel inside. I had thought it was the clothes but I was so wrong. If you can still not present as female then you have time to work in these issues. I was so distraught every time I returned to male and my wife could plainly see it. We all quickly realized there would be no turning back. Now I am down to a few days a month where I have to appear as male. I don't know how much longer I can do that.

I don't know where you fit on the spectrum. Only you can decide that. If it still about dressing up to do certain activities you probably can mitigate the consequences. When it is about who you are then you will not be able to escape the solution.
I have read your posts for two years and there seems to be no progression of your issue. It is still a about the freedom to put on a costume. She is unwilling to grant you the freedom to don a costume that makes you feel better. You never decide that you are worth that freedom. How can you expect a different outcome while doing things the exact same way?
Suzanne