Is Katlin More [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

PaulaQ

07-27-2015, 11:11 AM

IMO it's easier for people to understand someone who was born in the wrong body and who is correcting this. This person is still part of the gender-binary that the world understands.

I agree, although I would point out that not all trans people who undergo gender transition correspond well to the gender binary / cisgender norms. But yes, it is much easier to understand someone like Caitlyn who's just a woman, end of story.

It's not so easy to understand a person who identifies male but who enjoys presenting as a female outside of the stage (people do understand Drag Queens who dress for show or gay men who dress as women).

I agree here too, gender fluid people are very hard for most of us to understand. I disagree that people understand drag queens. Some number of drag queens transition. I know several, locally who have. (I know, here I go again saying scary sounding things!)

I really don't think the average person, straight or gay, understands why DQs feel the need to do what they do. They just know that "oh, ok, drag queens are a thing" because they have become extremely visible. I think a lot of straight people think a gay man would dress as a woman to try to sleep with men, which would of course be sort of silly and counterproductive.

Tracii G

07-27-2015, 11:20 AM

Who knows what will happen so I'm not going to change anything I do.
Get out and interact with the vanillas and do my thing.

Bridget Ann Gilbert

07-27-2015, 03:58 PM

Just one thing strikes me as odd through all this - given that the USA in general places great store in the pursuit of wealth and the measure of an individual is very often attenuated to their personal net worth, how come so many people are quick to focus on both her expenditure on herself and her ability to earn more through her celebrity status as being negative aspects..?? The trans politics of envy, perhaps... :2c:

Katey x

Americans as a culture do celebrate gaining wealth and fame, but it has to be done in a certain way, usually through hard work, innovation, or great talent. Thus as Bruce she was celebrated for her athletic accomplishments. There is less respect for being an outlandish reality TV star. I think the only reason her family is still on TV is because a lot of folk over here enjoy feeling superior to the Kardashians. In spite of their wealth they are views as shallow, insecure people and that's the appeal. Of course that doesn't explain how others have become famous by being outlandish, e.g. Howard Stern. Face it, we Yanks are almost impossible to understand.

Bridget

Krisi

07-27-2015, 04:23 PM

Caitlin Jenner is pretty much a circus act at this point. Magazine covers, a TV show, TV interviews, etc. I don't think this is making society more accepting of crossdressers or transgender people. What I do see is division. People who would have just ignored the subject are now posting jokes on Facebook and making disparaging comments. The rest of us without money or fame are not gaining anything from this.

ReineD

07-27-2015, 05:05 PM

I've been questioning people in my life about their opinions of Caitlyn, in an attempt to understand how she is really viewed outside of the media articles that are largely supportive. So a few days ago I had dinner with a female friend who is hugely open-minded and who has L, G, and T friends. Her opinion of Caitlyn was negative. She would have respected Caitlyn more if Caitlyn had had a quiet, less flamboyant coming out and had not been associated with flashy magazine covers, reality shows, etc. I told my friend that Caitlyn is putting herself in the limelight because she wants the world to understand the plight of young transsexuals among whom suicide rates are high due to social non-acceptance. My friend replied that many of us have horrible and difficult things to deal with and that TSs are no exception.

I'm not saying I agree with her ... I think it is good for Caitlyn to use her renown to be a spokesperson for the plight of TSs. But, I do agree that it might be done less flamboyantly and with less focus on the "trappings" of femininity, i.e. hair, clothes, and boobs. It would be nice to take the "Hollywood" out of it. BTW my friend knows about my SO and is supportive.

Belle Cri

07-27-2015, 05:15 PM

I agree, although I would point out that not all trans people who undergo gender transition correspond well to the gender binary / cisgender norms. But yes, it is much easier to understand someone like Caitlyn who's just a woman, end of story.

I agree here too, gender fluid people are very hard for most of us to understand. I disagree that people understand drag queens. Some number of drag queens transition. I know several, locally who have. (I know, here I go again saying scary sounding things!)

I really don't think the average person, straight or gay, understands why DQs feel the need to do what they do. They just know that "oh, ok, drag queens are a thing" because they have become extremely visible. I think a lot of straight people think a gay man would dress as a woman to try to sleep with men, which would of course be sort of silly and counterproductive.

I am really coming to greatly respect your observations. As to Jenner, well - look she has always been a media presence in one way or another, has hooked up with those people, and so the result really is not that surprising. Regrettable, but she does serve a good cause. Sounds a bit nasty sit back and say, oh well, you're an idiot, but you are helping so go for it.

I could not have done that. I take enormous risks as it is, but not that, so I must subsume my cowardice into admiration for the media glare that she endures, even while she courts it.

Megan G

07-27-2015, 06:20 PM

Well I would hardly call Caitlyn Jenner a circus act, she is a celebrity that is transitioning so of course there is going to be lots and lots of media attention.

Is Caitlyn helping people become more understanding of Transsexual issues? ABSOLUTELY!!! I can speak from personal experience that yes she has raised awareness. As a transitioning TS that lives in a rural small town her story helped make my young son understand that there are more people like daddy out there with the same medical problem. In many conversations with my friends Caitlyn Jenners name has come up and it has helped my friends on some level. My one Aunt downloaded the Dianne Sawyer interview and gave copies to family members that were having issues with my transition. So in a nut shell yes she is making a difference, the full effect has yet to be seen...

Now the OP asked if she would help people become more accepting of CD'ers. my guess is probably not since she is not a crossdresser. There may be some residual effects that cd'ers might notice but in all honesty the only way that your going to get more acceptance is if you step out of your closet and be seen. The conversation right now is focused on Transsexuals...

Sharon B.

07-27-2015, 06:41 PM

I heard somewhere she still has the same plumbing as a CD, but if I had her money I would have it removed. As far as helping the CD's I don't she has to her it about being paid to be seen and to make a mockery out of us.

flatlander_48

07-27-2015, 06:42 PM

Let's hope Katlin is making CDing more accepted.

I think there are benefits for crossdressers, but it's indirect. By having a transsexual in the news, one that we knew in her former life and now through her transition, it exposes people to ways of being beyond heterosexuals, lesbian, gays and bisexuals.

Despite some flack from the trans groups that she bought her beauty, and is not a realistic role model for transwomen, she is good for the community.

There is this question:

How many women of means would decide against plastic surgery and say "No thanks, I'd rather stay ugly."?

DeeAnn

Ilsa

07-27-2015, 06:59 PM

Belle Cri

07-27-2015, 07:15 PM

Presumed innocence I would suspect.

ReineD

07-27-2015, 09:51 PM

Why is it that I have more support and respect for a story about the turmoil that a child goes through growing up transgender as presented on "Frontline' and PBS than I do about a 65 year old on "Entertainment Tonight' who's worried about what she is going to wear at a Culture Club concert.

That's my point too. She doesn't give me the impression she is in touch with the average person, especially young TSs who are likely at the poverty line due to an inability to get jobs and the high cost of transition. Less flamboyance and preoccupation with looks and what to wear, and fewer comments on "what us girls need to go through to look beautiful" would be a good thing.

flatlander_48

07-27-2015, 10:23 PM

I don't see how Ms. Jenner is really going to be in touch with young transsexuals when she is 2 generations removed. I don't think that's going to work.

Further, I don't understand the criticism about how she looks when I don't remember anything being said about how Janet Mock, Lana Wachowski, Geena Rocero, Laverne Cox, and many others, dressed. It feels like a double standard and it seems odd to single out Ms. Jenner.

DeeAnn

MissTee

07-27-2015, 11:15 PM

I think a lot of things will happen because of Caitlyn. Those on the far right will use her to show what's wrong with her. Those on the far left will use her to show what's right about her. Those in the middle -- and quite likely the largest group -- will gain more awareness and perhaps a little more tolerance of those who are different. That will be a good thing for all of us.

Lorileah

07-28-2015, 12:13 AM

Interesting how some doubt the sincerity of someone who is famous now. She isn't a circus act. My feeling is she is at this point very genuine (and if she isn't she is a great actress). Get off the money kick. If you all had it you would be so far away from here it would be smoking behind you. I question how many here could stand the scrutiny she has weathered.

As far as the teen and younger trans people and connecting, I honestly wold be at a loss to have a conversation with them about virtually ANYTHING except the fact that we share being Trans. I mean really people, who blazes the trail? It isn't a young peer, it is us old geezers. So do we have to have someone 2o something come out and wave a flag? This is new territory, some of the paths we oldsters have already walked, so why not let us at least be a beacon? My mission right now is to try and smooth the trail for those who follow....are you going to limit me to my age group?

I see a lot of jealousy here. It is a wasted emotion. It isn't the money. Lots of people have money...it's a platform. Is she good for CDs? (And remember most regular people don't know a CD from a TS), yes, she is getting your SO's to talk to you. Getting your peers at the office to start thinking that the T community isn't clowns and perverts. Allowing parents to see that there are more T's out there than their child and that they have support.

Is she good for the community? You're talking about her. That is a step ahead of where we were a year ago. We are now on a ledge, if she messes up, we all fall. If she doesn't we all get to go to the next level. I am cheering for the next level

Bridget Ann Gilbert

07-28-2015, 12:17 AM

I get the sense that Caitlyn is conflicted herself. On the one side she has to deal with the practical realities of supporting herself and is using the only means she's known for years: her celebrity. To maintain public interest she feels she has to play the glam card because that's what sells. On the other side, she's also the person who came from a humble background, worked incredibly hard to succeed on the international sports stage, and learned from that experience the importance of being a positive roll model to others. I've read her blogs and watched some of her post-transition interviews.She comes across to me as someone genuinely interested in doing things the right way, and I support her efforts. How effective they will be remains to be seen. I do wonder what she is going to go through when the spotlight moves on to the next shiney object. Will she have enough people in her life to give her that sense of love and belonging we all want?

Bridget

Hell on Heels

07-28-2015, 01:18 AM

Hell-o Deebra,
Caitlyn is a celebrity, before and after transition. You've heard the saying " you can take the girl out of Texas (wherever)
Caitlyn is in the spotlight for a reason. It may seem that she is out to make some cash from coming out, but never less. She's out!
So how does a celebrity do this? Someone that so many people already know.
Someone that the media is following?
Should we expect Caitlyn to address everyone of our issues in a single episode?
I hope they find a way to make her show a bit more interesting.
Exposing the suicide rate is so important.
,

AbigailJordan

07-28-2015, 01:25 AM

I actually think that Caitlyn doesn't actually help regular CD's as much as people think. Let's be honest, a large majority of us here have no real desire to transition. a few of us will, and good luck to them all on their journey, but Caitlyn does far more for transgender issues than she does for CDs.

People like Grayson Perry and Kiefer Sutherland do more to help people understand that some of us just like to wear a dress from time to time (or every night in some cases). But let's be honest, the two questions most prominent when we reveal to friends or family are 1. Are you gay?, 2. Do you want to be (or do you feel like you are) a woman?

I would rather see "regular" crossdressers having more media time and showing the world that some guys are exactly like others except that they prefer to wear something cute and slinky rather than some drab jeans.

Regardless of all that, I'm proud of Caitlyn for her courage and strength and our struggles for acceptance don't in any way diminish the work she has done for the community as a whole.

Georgina

07-28-2015, 03:08 AM

I don't think Caitlyn helps CDs at all. In my mind she, and anyone who transitions, only helps strengthen the misguided belief that only women can wear dresses. I am a male and want to remain so but I love wearing dresses.

Hell on Heels

07-28-2015, 03:18 AM

Hell-o Deebra,
Like it or not Caitlyn is out. How she goes about exposing herself, her thoughts, and her feelings on the show is left to the producers.
Hopefully Cait has a hand (voice) in what is going on.
I'm sure she has been here ( CD.com ) reading (lurking) ( wouldn't you?)
If you had her on a one on one conversation, would you ask her if she ever considered herself a crossdresser?
Doubt it, but asking a stranger if they were TG seems so much more acceptable.
I hope her show gains some speed, but realize, we all know, and have known, what she's talking about.
With each word she utters, the media follows, with every quote they print, TG people are brought to life.
IMO. Anyone that chooses to wear the clothes designed to be worn by the opposite gender is a CDer.
With that being said, those same people have to some degree of GID.
I'm again sure that Cait realizes that the TG community reaches beyond the TS world, and every aspect of it needs to be adressed

So where do we "CDers" fit into Cait's show?
I only hope that Cait , or her producers are here, reading, getting a feel for how
the show, and the ENTIRE TG community is beijng portrayed.
Regardless, life goes on. Caitlyn doesn't know me, I don't know her.
My alarm clock will still go off at 6am!
Much Love
Kristyn

Marcelle

07-28-2015, 04:18 AM

Hi all,

I can see this thread going bad (much like the last one) so I thought I would get my two cents in before it gets locked :)

To the OP, is Caitlyn good for CDers? Well, I have to agree with Lorileah on this one . . . the average person does not know CD from TS unless they are initiated in the community (know someone of our ilk). Indeed, I have had several people ask me at work "So you are like Caitlyn Jenner?" To which I reply "No, she is transsexual which means she is transitioning to become a woman. I am gender fluid which means some days I identify as a woman and some days as a man" Confusion and Jeopardy screen saver face :confused: "Oh so you are like a cross dresser?" To which I reply "In a sense yes but that can be anyone who wishes to dress up in women's clothing to someone like me who goes complete with make-up and a wig" The difference is when I identify as a woman, I see myself as a woman whereas some cross dressers will always maintain they are a man". A bit less confused look and then some understanding.

My point as some may be wondering . . . is that Caitlyn is getting people to talk and when they meet one of us in the Vanilla world (CDer, TG, TS or whomever) they may engage and it is up to us to educate. So the knock on effect of Caitlyn's very public transition is that it can be a starting platform for dialogue if you are out to the world as a CDer or you just wish to engage in conversation with friends about TG issues and remain private . . . it is what you do with the information that makes the difference.

Hell-o Deebra,
Caitlyn is a celebrity, before and after transition. You've heard the saying " you can take the girl out of Texas (wherever)
Caitlyn is in the spotlight for a reason. It may seem that she is out to make some cash from coming out, but never less. She's out!

Hi Kristyn,

Love this quote. It is true Caitlyn is a celebrity and once in the spotlight . . . let's face it . . . some people irrespective of gender or intentions cannot give it up, indeed it must be intoxicating to be the focus of so much attention. However, it does not negate her plight. Remember folks, she didn't go through all this to make some bucks, I mean seriously who would? She had/has real "gender dysphoria" and I am sure any here who have suffered from even the mildest form of this can attest . . . not fun. Caitlyn came out in a flamboyant way, that can't be denied but she came out because she had to. Could it have been a more low key? Certainly, but that is not what celebrities do. Again though, that does not all of a sudden reduce her intentions to non-existent because she is using the limelight. To be honest nobody here truly knows what her intentions are and she could very well be using her celeb status as a launching pad for future advocacy work once all the hype settles down.

I get the sense that Caitlyn is conflicted herself. On the one side she has to deal with the practical realities of supporting herself and is using the only means she's known for years: her celebrity. To maintain public interest she feels she has to play the glam card because that's what sells.

Bingo! We all have our coping mechanisms in dealing with this thing regardless of where we fall on the spectrum. It will most likely be something comfortable and give us a sense of worth. Let's face it how many people post pictures of themselves here looking for positive feedback (guilty as charged). Why do we do it? Acceptance, confidence or just a feel good moment when someone says "You look good". Yes, Caitlyn's may be a bit over the top but if it is helping her through things . . . why rain on that parade.

That's my point too. She doesn't give me the impression she is in touch with the average person, especially young TSs who are likely at the poverty line due to an inability to get jobs and the high cost of transition. Less flamboyance and preoccupation with looks and what to wear, and fewer comments on "what us girls need to go through to look beautiful" would be a good thing.

Hi Reine,

I agree to some extent. But then again, how many celeb role models come from less than humble backgrounds who stand-up for the plight of the disenfranchised and poverty stricken. They are not in touch with what it means to be poor or have to work and yet they still use their fame and wealth to do good and a lot of it is done with a backdrop of media frenzy.

Why is it that I have more support and respect for a story about the turmoil that a child goes through growing up transgender as presented on "Frontline' and PBS than I do about a 65 year old on "Entertainment Tonight' who's worried about what she is going to wear at a Culture Club concert.

Hi Ilsa,

I agree again to some extent. Unfortunately, Hollywood pizzazz is what sells ratings and not news. Now, it is likely that Caitlyn will fast become a bi-line in the entertainment world (indeed check out the tabloids and you will see very little about her) but her explosion upon the world is what has brought people's head out the sand when it comes to being TG which in turn has made being TG newsworthy and potentially acted as the impetus to get these stories out to the world. But to be honest . . . all this media attention irrespective of Hollywood glam or real life plight will lead a Mayfly existence until the next big thing comes along. It is up to us (CDer, TS, TG or whomever) to keep that alive in the minds of those who have seen it and not just the intentions of one or two celebs.

Cheers

Isha

Krisi

07-28-2015, 08:00 AM

I'm with Georgina (post #26) on this. Caitlyn strengthens the misconception that every crossdresser is on his way to becoming a woman. It is just not the case and so she is really hurting us. I cringe every time there is a mention of her on TV and my wife is watching because I'm not sure my wife believes me when I say I have no desire to "become a woman".

AnnieMac

07-28-2015, 08:14 AM

"Caitlyn" is out there to make money. Something really creeps me out about her, that has nothing to do with crossdressing or gender issues. She reminds me of Michael Jackson. There is something really all off about her face, cheekbones and lips. She has already had way too much plastic surgery I think. Particularly, the lips look all tight and frozen.
My guess is, if you have her as a selection on one of those "which celebrity goes next death watch list" She would be a good bet.
However, at least she has raised some healthy discussions. Not so much about crossdressers (we who do it as fun dress-up play) but about real transgender issues. First came the now mostly regular acceptance of gays, next will be tansgenders, and perhaps next will come acceptance just guys like me that like the look and feel of the clothes and like to dress feminine sometimes. I don't really need to change my body in anyway, well other than to loose some of the beer gut.

Zooey

07-28-2015, 11:40 AM

Caitlyn is, as Bruce was, a celebrity and a great inspirational speaker. I think she went a bit to far with some of her cosmetic facial procedures (she's rich in LA, she's not exactly an oddball here), and I do wish her public declaration of womanhood hadn't been glamour shots. That said, I applaud her for (even if retroactively) reaching out to learn more about the broader set of issues transgender folks in different life situations are experiencing and speaking out about them. I believe she's doing that genuinely, and I think she's a powerful member of the community who can legitimately help improve things. She appeals to a broader base and, frankly, has a lot of experience with a less confrontational style of speaking than many activist trans folks I know. Not saying confrontation is bad, but having a bit softer touch on TV as well may help win over more people more easily.

Barbara Jo

07-28-2015, 11:55 AM

IMO, Cait is more or less "popular" and accepted by the general simply because she was already a media reality show star in something like a soap opera setting.
This was / is the attraction of the karsdashian show..... a real life soap opera

Then, it's revealed that a "character" on the show did/does something controversial. it fascinates those who are into this type of entertainment.

BTW, I doubt that anything can change the minds of died in the wool homophobes and / or TG hateres ..

Stephanie47

07-28-2015, 11:58 AM

Caitlyn is not a cross dresser. I've stated on other threads the vast majority of people I know recognize there are men and women who are born into the wrong physical body. They may not understand why this occurs, but, they are accepting of it. And, there are many instances reported in the media of men transitioning to women who run into difficulties using facilities designated for females; the locker room issues with young girls present too. In most cases there is really no way a casual observer is able to tell whether the male is a cross dresser or a transsexual. Either way the person may be subject to negative comments or worse.

Caitlyn has the money and the ability to insulate herself from the negative interactions the rest of us would be subject too. The people I have encountered mostly view Caitlyn in a negative light. All have viewed her as a media event and nothing more. I really do not know if she will "further the cause." People will be swayed by encountering ordinary folks in their otherwise mundane lives. Right now Caitlyn seems to be more of a curiosity than a true representative of transsexuals.

arbon

07-28-2015, 12:01 PM

In my mind she, and anyone who transitions, only helps strengthen the misguided belief that only women can wear dresses. I am a male and want to remain so but I love wearing dresses.

I just posted a link to a TED talk by CiCi Kytten in the media section. You should watch it.

Those who have transitioned have come to own and claim their identities in the real world. More crossdressers should try it and stop complaining about how everyone else holds them back.

Lorileah

07-28-2015, 12:10 PM

People like Grayson Perry and Kiefer Sutherland do more to help people understand that some of us just like to wear a dress from time to time (or every night in some cases).

One question...how's that working out for the CD community? I had to look up Perry and he seems to be or have been a fetish dresser (Personally not what I think is great PR for most here) Kiefer, I will buy but is he still news? When did he make a splash? I'm surprised that Eddie Izzard wasn't listed there, at least he does have a wide following.

But that aside...once again why are we dividing the community into They help them not us?

ReineD

07-28-2015, 04:16 PM

Hi Reine,

I agree to some extent. But then again, how many celeb role models come from less than humble backgrounds who stand-up for the plight of the disenfranchised and poverty stricken. They are not in touch with what it means to be poor or have to work and yet they still use their fame and wealth to do good and a lot of it is done with a backdrop of media frenzy.

I'm also concerned about the general populace, the people that we're wanting will accept the idea that some individuals are genuinely born in the wrong bodies and they need compassion and support. If Caitlyn persists in presenting herself as a Hollywood diva, I'm concerned that people in general will continue to tell themselves that Caitlyn, specifically, is doing this all for show and money and it's not "for real". There's a disconnect between the reality that Caitlyn is portraying and most TS' lives that I think will make it difficult for the people who do discriminate against TSs, to listen to Caitlyn's message and translate this to "yes, I will give this TS a job" or "yes, I will sign a lease with this TS".

My concerns may be unfounded, but I'm basing them on the conversations I've had with the people I know about Caitlyn, most of whom are taking it all as one big publicity stunt for money. I do think a change in image would do much to dispel these negative attitudes.

That said, I think that the people (wives, children, siblings, parents, etc) of TGs will be able to look past Caitlyn's presentation and pay attention to her words and sentiments. But, these family members have a head's up on the general populace because they are already personally involved with a TG and they can already relate a bit with the difficulties that these TGs experience.

Kaitlyn Michele

07-28-2015, 04:42 PM

What would you have her do?

be specific

give away her money?
wear grungy clothes? pretend she is 18 and somehow relate to the current generation as if she is one of them
talk about cds when she is not a cd?
hide in the closet? not transition? have srs and broadcast it?

what would you have her say? she has said a lot of wonderful things..

would you begrudge her livelihood as a tv personality and motivational speaker??
who would you have her be other than herself??

Princess Chantal

07-28-2015, 05:18 PM

Oh great here we go again.....
Why does the Caitlyn threads always lead to the putting down of crossdressers just cause of a few that don't put her on a pedestal for her "efforts"?

Badtranny

07-28-2015, 05:23 PM

Here we have a group of people who have done NOTHING to advance acceptance of CD's or anybody TG related, critiquing somebody who is literally putting it all out there. It's entertaining to read and I guess this is the right place for it, but please understand that closeted people have zero influence or credibility in the community.

I realize that a good number of the CD's who frequent the board probably spend a good deal of time with regular dudes (dudes who don't have a girl's name on the weekends) in spirited conversations about sports, and those damn queers. I'm sure that your blistering critique of Ms Jenner is appreciated in those circles, but around here she is considered a Trans Woman and the trans women who hang out here tend to respect people who damn the torpedoes for the cold comfort of authenticity.

What you say about Caitlyn you could say about any of us, and what you say about the least of my people you say about me. To paraphrase an ancient Jewish dude.

Ruby John

07-28-2015, 06:05 PM

So I was just sitting there trying to look passable. This lady walks up and says You must be like Caitlyn? I told her I am a pretty good athlete but not that good. Ruby

AngelaYVR

07-28-2015, 06:08 PM

Let the ad hominems fly! Straw men await your skewering!
Anybody who needs to continually divide this into an "us versus them" fight is not in my camp at all. So sad.

pamela7

07-28-2015, 06:10 PM

Crossdressers will gain more acceptance when they come out, live openly, and talk about who they are. Caitlyn is doing a great service to the trans community, particularly those who transition. But for CDs, since everyone on TV is tripping all over themselves to distinguish trans women from CDs, I don't think this will have so much impact unless more of you are visible.

as ever Paula is really clear and on the money here. While hiding is an integral part of CD for many, it's only needed cos so many hide!!!!

Katey888

07-28-2015, 06:12 PM

It is possible to express an opinion without trolling or being abusive about it - anyone who has stated an opinion already should think very carefully about just shouting the same thing louder because they believe that will 'win' some sort of argument. :rulez:

This isn't a debate with a winner and loser - it's a discussion - please keep it civil or it won't even be that.... AGAIN!

Make your point - keep it polite - please... :dammit:

Katey
Moderator

Abby Kae

07-28-2015, 06:12 PM

For my money, all press is good press. Sure, a bunch of 'phobes are crawling out of the woodwork (in the general populace) with some nasty comments, but they did the same thing in the 80s with gay men.

Today, marriage is legal for everyone and those who don't like it have to take a back seat.

Eventually, it'll be the same for TS/TG people. Naysayers can voice their opinions, but in the long run ANY conversation about it, good or ill, will engender acceptance. I'm not even talking about Caitlyn specifically, though she was the catalyst that sparked the public conversation. Her motives matter not in the least. All that matters is that more and more people hear about this subset of humanity, and see that we exist. They'll hate for a while, then the majority will realize that we're actual people, too.

You do you, let Caitlyn do Caitlyn, and eventually we'll all work it out together.

Lorileah

07-28-2015, 06:27 PM

:sigh:

OK, I guess we agree. Good for the TS's, not good for the CD's, good role model except she is probably too rich and too public, so she doesn't represent the people here who don't have fame or money.

Mainstream people see her as an act because she is connected to an act, so no matter what she ever does, or has done in the past, is now moot because after all she can't be sincere. But she seems sincere and she seems like she cares, maybe, sorta, kinda but younger people can't connect because she is old and wisdom isn't what we need, we need 100% acceptance right now but then again we don't really want to work for it. That feels close. :rolleyes:

Someday I hope that both camps actually join hands and walk together in a united front, you know one big camping trip...kumbya and marshmallows. I also believe in :fairy3:

emma5410

07-28-2015, 06:34 PM

If we are all holding hands we will not be able to walk very far unless the closet has wheels.

docrobbysherry

07-28-2015, 07:34 PM

steftoday

07-28-2015, 07:44 PM

I wish she would learn of this site and join. I'd love to hear her answers.

flatlander_48

07-28-2015, 07:55 PM

My concerns may be unfounded, but I'm basing them on the conversations I've had with the people I know about Caitlyn, most of whom are taking it all as one big publicity stunt for money. I do think a change in image would do much to dispel these negative attitudes.

So, if I understand correctly, your friends believe that someone would elect to have hours and hours of non-trivial, largely irreversible surgery (10 hours on her face alone) for money? Sorry, that makes no sense.

OK, I guess we agree. Good for the TS's, not good for the CD's, good role model except she is probably too rich and too public, so she doesn't represent the people here who don't have fame or money.

You realize that NO ONE fits your model? Now what?

DeeAnn

Adriana Moretti

07-28-2015, 09:51 PM

the opening line of I Am Cait was this.....

"The world changes in direct proportion to the number of people willing to be honest about their lives."

How many of you are honest? How many are in the closet?

No matter WHO the role model for tg's is.....she is going to catch hate & shade from people, even other tg's
No Matter WHO one day becomes a role model for CD's....that person will catch hate and shade from people even other CD's
If you dont like the role models in front of you, become one yourself. xoxo

ReineD

07-28-2015, 09:58 PM

So, if I understand correctly, your friends believe that someone would elect to have hours and hours of non-trivial, largely irreversible surgery (10 hours on her face alone) for money? Sorry, that makes no sense.

You're correct, it makes no sense ... to us. But the thing is, the average person isn't bothered to learn as deeply about it as we all are. They're not impacted by any of this! They have this iffy, sketchy idea of what "TG" might or might not mean (most people think it means gay men who want to become women ... except maybe those flashy people in Hollywood who do it for money and/or fame). When they read about parents who support their young TS kids by providing them with hormone blockers, many of them think the parents are off their rockers. They really have no clue.

I've been asking various people I know what they think about Caitlyn, just to get my finger on the pulse of what people in the general population think, who are not associated in any way with members of this community like we are. It stands to reason that we know better, as do the people in our lives ... but even then, I bet there are people here who have acquaintances that think they're off their rockers too, if they know.

Because she has been so much in the news, using Caitlyn's story as a springboard for discussion has been an eye opener for me.

What would you have her do?

Stop making references to how difficult it is for us girls to find the right dress, shoes, makeup, etc. It gives the impression that she thinks most women obsess over this and also that her looks are a top priority, which is not in sync with her age. Most of us don't stress over stuff like that past the age of 30ish. Also, she might wear clothes that are not quite so tight, reveal leg, cleavage, shoulder, etc. She does have a great body, but have a look around at how other women in their 60s dress even if they have great bodies too.

She did handle the interview with Diane Sawyer well (but she wasn't flashily dressed during that interview), and I liked what she had to say during her award acceptance speech recently (minus the jokes about how hard it is to be a woman). If she could only tone down her image a bit, I think it would make a difference. A lot of people tend to base their opinions on what they see, more than the substance of someone's speech.

Kaitlyn Michele

07-28-2015, 10:22 PM

I agree with Reine.

CD's r often looked down on by TS's. Even here. When someone like Caitlyn comes out as a CD? Then, we'll see the gloves come off and MAY see all the "nice", "nice", interviews and comments disappear!:sad:

so if cd's can't use Caitlyn for purposes of garnering support ...they trash her.... and imply ts looks down on cds...that's whats sad

if cd's cant gain support for dressing, its ts's fault..thats bs..

and when ts call out cd for it, they get trashed as divisive....

I agree Reine that Caitlyn can do a better job and hopefully she will... she is just starting out...
and i'd add as others have she is a Hollywood person...the appropriate role models are not the average person

flatlander_48

07-28-2015, 10:23 PM

RD:

Notice that I did not mention transgender or transsexual in what I said. I'm speaking to the idea of having serious, largely irreversible surgeries of many hours duration For Money. ANY surgery is potentially life-threatening, so that takes it 'way beyond sewing up a bad cut. So, logic would say that surgery for money cannot be without considerable risk.

The underlying point here is that if this concept, as presented above, makes no sense (and it doesn't), then adding the terms transgender or transsexual is meaningless.

A suggestion: ask the question WITHOUT references to Ms. Jenner, transgender or transsexual.

DeeAnn

TrishaTX

07-28-2015, 10:41 PM

I watched i with the wife like I do I am Jazz, it is just ability for people who don't crossdress or Trans to understand it. 10 years ago the most we had was Rupal, I think the press is good.

litlejohn

07-28-2015, 11:17 PM

I truly hope there is more to Caitlyn. I wish her the best in what ever she is trying to accomplish. No matter what the reason this is her journey and at least on the surface she has some support. That is all any of us in any mode of our journeys crave. I have read every post to this before commenting and with the good, bad and ugly, this has brought OUR community to the lime light. We are being talked about and not ignored good or bad.
Only Caitlyn knows why she decided to Come Out, and from what I've gathered in the little I've observed she has struggled with this for more years than some have been alive on here. Yes she's had the funds to do what ever procedure she thought was right for her but He earned that long before now.
We are watching her journey and IMO need to be respectful of that as we would hope others would be of ours. Some areas of our lifestyles seem to be getting more acceptance than others, great for them, our turn will either come or it won't. Please never hate on another member of our community for being a little more accepted. None of us have it easy and it is wasted energy.

ReineD

07-29-2015, 12:03 AM

I agree Reine that Caitlyn can do a better job and hopefully she will... she is just starting out...
and i'd add as others have she is a Hollywood person...the appropriate role models are not the average person

Well, that's true. When she was Bruce, she was surrounded by a bevy of women who are Not representational of the average woman. lol. She has been surrounded by Hollywood glam on steroids.

Hopefully she will recognize in time that she carries a much more serious message than the family carries in the Kardashian reality show, and she will tailor her presentation accordingly, as a spokesperson for people whose gender doesn't match their sex ... most of whom, may I add, go through emotional hell during the process of realization through to transition (like she has herself). And so the focus should be on more serious things and not so much on the frivolous, like looks and style. IMO.

OK .. an example that immediately comes to mind of other Hollywood personalities who have taken on more serious messages is Jane Fonda. She was a hot babe in her movies when she was young, but when engaged in activism she knew enough to tone it down in order to focus on her message. This is not an endorsement of her position or her politics, just a comment on her presentation while she was addressing political issues.

Jane Fonda as a hot babe (http://media.mademan.com/chickipedia/uploaded_photos/5/5d/Jane_Fonda-chickipedia-sexy-babe-hot_thumb_585x795.jpg)

Jane Fonda as an activist (https://nyppagesix.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/jane-fonda.jpg?w=720&h=480&crop=1)

emma5410

07-29-2015, 12:15 AM

This is the first time in her life that Caitlyn has been free to be herself so she should be allowed to dress as she wishes. Everybody should be free to dress as they wish. Criticising her because you do not like her clothes is very sad. By the way are you suggesting she should wear an helmet like Jane Fonda. Based on some of the comments here it might be a good idea.
Caitlyn does not owe anyone anything. She is transitioning and is entitled to do that however she wants. Yes she is famous, in the US at least, but I think she is using her fame in a positive manner.

ReineD

07-29-2015, 12:29 AM

Oh, don't get me wrong, Emma. Her clothes are very nice. The issue is having an awareness of how she is seen outside the TG community, if she wants people to take her seriously. You say she doesn't owe anyone anything. You're right. But, Caitlyn has said that she has an important message to carry. She will carry it better if she tones down her presentation.

Eryn

07-29-2015, 12:56 AM

The general public does not make the many distinctions that we do between the various parts of our spectrum. They lump us all together. I do not believe that expecting the mainstream public to learn the nuances of the TG spectrum is any more reasonable than expecting them to learn all the different modes of gay experience. As long as the core messages of respect and tolerance for us are transmitted it will be a big win for all of us.

One thing is for certain, unless they just crawled out of a cave no adult will ever again be able to say that they don't know of a TG person..

Lorileah

07-29-2015, 01:00 AM

I wish she would learn of this site and join. I'd love to hear her answers. You don't know she isn't. For all you know she's eating ice cream out of the box in her cotton night gown reading this

You realize that NO ONE fits your model? Now what?
That's the point. NO ONE fits the model. Soccer mom clothes...glam clothes...jeans and a T-shirt, there is always someone here who will say it isn't what we should wear. It doesn't fit the mold. Women are mad because she made a joke about how hard it is to choose an outfit (I suspect that anyone on an awards show really has that issue, they just don't say it). The TSs are are mad because she has money and spends it on things like plastic surgery. The CDs are mad because she is a TS. CBS is mad because she's on E network. Russia is mad because they didn't get the gold medal in 1976. What do people want?

Whatever it is, evidently Caitlyn doesn't have it. Funny thing is that people ARE talking about her. I have been here many years and that was an underlying subject the whole time. How do I tell my wife, my kids, my mother, my boss, my dog. Now you have a point of reference. You have an opening and people here want her to disappear. is she good for the community? I don't know yet. Let's see in a year. But, in the meantime, it has been something that people can talk to ME about so I can get MY message out too. So I can prove that I am a good person and not someone to be feared or avoided.

Other than never being a Drag Queen, I have lived the spectrum here. Most of us have. Sexual fetish, in the closet, going out at night, driving partially dressed or fully dressed in the dark, hiding clothes, buying clothes and throwing them away, going out in public and being scared out of my mind, going out in public and finding out the world didn't end, dressing as a guy most the time and as a woman on weekends, being who I am. It isn't a mountain with a peak, it is a railroad with twists and turns and stations that you can get off at or keep going on. If anyone here thinks for a moment they are better, higher, more evolved as a TG, just remember, pedestals are high and lonely and when you fall off, the higher you think you are the more pieces you will shatter into.

Is she good? Is she not? Who knows, she IS.

Last note: quit the sniping at each other. You can make your point without throwing sand at others in this box. Play nice.

Zooey

07-29-2015, 01:30 AM

CD's r often looked down on by TS's. Even here.

Maybe I've just been missing it, but when and how does this happen here? I've read quite a lot of discussions here, and while I can think of some where people were a bit blunt (but not really unreasonable), but none where I would say CDs were really looked down upon.

Stop making references to how difficult it is for us girls to find the right dress, shoes, makeup, etc. It gives the impression that she thinks most women obsess over this and also that her looks are a top priority, which is not in sync with her age. Most of us don't stress over stuff like that past the age of 30ish. Also, she might wear clothes that are not quite so tight, reveal leg, cleavage, shoulder, etc. She does have a great body, but have a look around at how other women in their 60s dress even if they have great bodies too.

She did handle the interview with Diane Sawyer well (but she wasn't flashily dressed during that interview), and I liked what she had to say during her award acceptance speech recently (minus the jokes about how hard it is to be a woman). If she could only tone down her image a bit, I think it would make a difference. A lot of people tend to base their opinions on what they see, more than the substance of someone's speech.

So, I completely agree with this. Honestly, during the first 1.5 minutes of her award acceptance speech I was rolling my eyes and groaning, "not again". Then the good part hit and the water works started. I understand her (and others') desire to be "validated" in a typically female fashion, but I hated that her first public "reveal" was glamour shots with a bit of pin-up thrown in. That said, I also feel really, really bad for her. Having watched the first episode of "I Am Cait" and gotten a better look at the extent of the procedures she pursued on her face, I have to believe that she had (and probably is still dealing with) some fairly severe body image issues. I have no idea if that's true or not, but I honestly can't even begin to imagine the pressures involved in openly transitioning while already a celebrity.

One thing I find interesting is that, for all the significant work she had done on her face, she has not pursued any noticeable changes to her voice as far as I can tell.

steftoday

07-29-2015, 06:35 AM

You don't know she isn't. For all you know she's eating ice cream out of the box in her cotton night gown reading this

Oh, I realize this, Lorileah.
Probably not a cotton nightgown, though. I think she's probably more a silk or satin type. ;-)

stefan37

07-29-2015, 07:45 AM

"Only Caitlyn knows why she decided to Come Out,"

Because she needed to be seen by the public as female and needs that identity reflected back to her.

"One thing I find interesting is that, for all the significant work she had done on her face, she has not pursued any noticeable changes to her voice as far as I can tell."

How do you know she isn't working on it. Voice box surgery raises the base pitch, but doesn't address the resonance, breathing, inflection and prosody of female speech. That is only attained by practice and use. I'm finding that part to be very difficult. I've been practicing for over 2 years. I hardly get misgendered on the phone anymore, but not always. Talking to strangers is much easier than talking to friends, family in the office or to long time clients. I tend to revert back to familiar voice and patterns during those encounters. Talk to many transitioners and transitioned individuals. You'll find that voice is the hardest part of this journey.

pamela7

07-29-2015, 07:56 AM

well gurlies, if she has got 10% of the rest of the world talking about her about 10% as much as happens on here, its a RESULT.

flatlander_48

07-29-2015, 09:08 AM

That's the point. NO ONE fits the model. Soccer mom clothes...glam clothes...jeans and a T-shirt, there is always someone here who will say it isn't what we should wear. It doesn't fit the mold. Women are mad because she made a joke about how hard it is to choose an outfit (I suspect that anyone on an awards show really has that issue, they just don't say it). The TSs are are mad because she has money and spends it on things like plastic surgery. The CDs are mad because she is a TS.

Well, personally, as a crossdresser I'm not mad about anything, with the possible exception of the B/S that sometimes appears in print here and is passed off as logic.

Whatever it is, evidently Caitlyn doesn't have it. Funny thing is that people ARE talking about her.

There is an old axiom about public relations, such that the problem isn't when people talk about you. The problem is when people STOP talking about you.

But, you have to ask the question is having a Lightning Rod better than not having a Lightning Rod? I think Having is better than Not Having.

Anyway, by your list I guess I am atypical:

Drag Queen: no
Sexual fetish: somewhat
In the closet: partly
Going out at night: no
Driving partially dressed: no
Fully dressed in the dark: no
Hiding clothes: no
Buying clothes: yes
Throwing them away: no
Going out in public and being scared out of my mind: initially
Going out in public and finding out the world didn't end: yes
Dressing as a guy most the time and as a woman on weekends: + some evenings
Being who I am: trying to

The point is that we all got here by MANY different roads and at MANY different Rates and at MANY different times and with MANY different purposes. The problem is that rather than appreciating and supporting each others struggles, many feel the need to separate and distance themsleves and devalue others. There is No Way that can be useful, yet we continue to do it. That's what I find depressing.

All this carping about how Ms. Jenner dresses is a complete waste of bandwidth. I guess some won't be happy unless she is wearing a burlap bag with a rope belt.

You know, how's this: Has anyone checked if there is a way to get fan mail to Ms. Jenner? It would seem to make more sense to register your displeasure in some way like that where there is at least a chance that she might see it rather than here which is very doubtful.

DeeAnn

Sara Jessica

07-29-2015, 09:09 AM

Stop making references to how difficult it is for us girls to find the right dress, shoes, makeup, etc. It gives the impression that she thinks most women obsess over this and also that her looks are a top priority, which is not in sync with her age. Most of us don't stress over stuff like that past the age of 30ish. Also, she might wear clothes that are not quite so tight, reveal leg, cleavage, shoulder, etc. She does have a great body, but have a look around at how other women in their 60s dress even if they have great bodies too.

She did handle the interview with Diane Sawyer well (but she wasn't flashily dressed during that interview), and I liked what she had to say during her award acceptance speech recently (minus the jokes about how hard it is to be a woman). If she could only tone down her image a bit, I think it would make a difference. A lot of people tend to base their opinions on what they see, more than the substance of someone's speech.

My friend Christine (Daniels, also a rather public transition at the time) took some of the same criticism in seemingly being a little too focused on what many viewed as the superficial aspects of being a woman. Thing is, she was going through an adolescence of sorts as the female which she wasn't able to express when she was a chronological teenager. These things bled into her blog, just as Caitlyn's bleed into her public statements. In Christine's case, these things along with the detransition part of her story led to much criticism (as in hindsight) that suggested she was "just a CD'er" all along which was absolute rubbish.

Caitlyn is probably doing something very similar but instead of making all of the wrong fashion choices, she is simply overcooking the right choices a bit (by virtue of a behind-the-scenes stylist, I suspect) which is leading to criticism.

I wouldn't be surprised if things settle down as time goes by. Admittedly, I haven't seen episode one of I Am Cait yet, but of the images I have seen of her since the VF cover, I can recall only one utterly casual (yet unmistakenly feminine and well-put-together) moment where she is standing arm and arm with her friends, backs to the camera. Otherwise, her signature style seems to be DVF dresses and meticulous attention to detail in her overall look.

Heck, because she is in the public eye, her look may never settle down significantly, and that is her choice. Does she have to present in jeans & Birkenstocks in order to be seen with respect by the community which she is so much a part of and has so much to offer to?

flatlander_48

07-29-2015, 09:18 AM

S J:

Point of clarification:

Do the jeans have to have rips and the Birkenstocks have to start delaminating?

Thanks!

DeeAnn

Sara Jessica

07-29-2015, 09:24 AM

Ha ha ha!!! Those things only enhance street-cred :).

flatlander_48

07-29-2015, 10:22 AM

Ah! Thanks for the clarification! Judging from the discussion here, we MUST get it right!

Have an Excellent Day,

DeeAnn

Dianne S

07-29-2015, 10:55 AM

I guess I'm late to the game, but no, I don't think Caitlyn Jenner's transition has any effect on the public perception of crossdressers.

I think the public is more understanding and tolerant of people who transition than of people who crossdress part time. And a large part of the problem is that many (most? I dunno) part-time crossdressers are closeted and furtive.

If you yourself keep your crossdressing a secret, go to great lengths to avoid having your "stash" found, even hide it from your spouse... doesn't it seem like you yourself think there's something wrong with it? It's hypocritical for a closeted crossdresser to expect public acceptance of something something the crossdresser him or herself treats as a shameful secret.

Zooey

07-29-2015, 11:44 AM

How do you know she isn't working on it. Voice box surgery raises the base pitch, but doesn't address the resonance, breathing, inflection and prosody of female speech. That is only attained by practice and use. I'm finding that part to be very difficult. I've been practicing for over 2 years. I hardly get misgendered on the phone anymore, but not always. Talking to strangers is much easier than talking to friends, family in the office or to long time clients. I tend to revert back to familiar voice and patterns during those encounters. Talk to many transitioners and transitioned individuals. You'll find that voice is the hardest part of this journey.

Well, I did say "as far as I can tell". :) I don't know that she isn't working on it, but I also know that (despite how it looks on TV) her transition has actually been going on for a long time. Given the authority with which she speaks in public, I wonder if she's made a choice specifically not to change her voice.

Also, yes - I know about the work involved. I've been working on my voice for a while now as part of my transition. I'm not considering voice box surgery because I find the risks to my voice quality unacceptable, but vocal training has been working fairly well for me so far.

Lorileah

07-29-2015, 12:58 PM

:confused: I didn't change my voice. My voice is an integral part of my new career. So this doesn't make sense to me. Faking a lilt or going into a head tone, to me, is fake. I am still awaiting the answer about how she somehow is stealing something from the "T" community. With all the negative press we have had over the years (bad movies, bad movies that were supposed to be funny, bad news articles about bad people who used a "T" front to do bad things) how is this somehow worse? Most of the feedback I have had from the world is positive...to my face anyway. Who knows what they say when they go home. But as I said, now people have a reference point. A broad one but still something they can compare to that isn't a clown, murderer, pervert.

Positive "T" role models are hard to find. One person did point out two. It is great we have scientists, doctors, lawyers, politicians (did anyone see the article about Kristen Beck?), musicians, mothers/fathers, every walk of life. But they haven't made the impact Jenner has. So many here supported Eddie Izzard for dressing in public. How was HE (yes he...because he never said he was anything else) somehow a better model? And next question is"where is he now"? If he was a positive model are the effects still in force? The movie Kinky Boots vs the movie Mrs Doubtfire vs the movie TransAmerica vs the movie Crying game? Which ones showed the community (no matter where you are on the spectrum) in a positive light?

So the OP was,

Is Katlin Jenner more accepted than your average CD ? Is society changing???

ReineD

07-29-2015, 05:08 PM

well gurlies, if she has got 10% of the rest of the world talking about her about 10% as much as happens on here, its a RESULT.

Oh, I don't think the rest of the world is even half as interested as are the people in CD/TG forums.

Thing is, she was going through an adolescence of sorts as the female which she wasn't able to express when she was a chronological teenager

Yes, I know all that, as does everyone else who knows CDs/TGs, but my point was, her message is not addressed to us (or to the people we know who support us). Her message is addressed to the hordes of non-understanding, non-supportive people who discriminate against TSs. Lathering on the glam in a world where a lot of people struggle economically is not a good way to make the argument that people transition for identity and emotional reasons, and not because they want to be sexy hot babes!

I'm not suggesting she should look like a bag lady, just saying that it wouldn't hurt to stop making comments on how hard it is for a woman to look good and tone down her appearance a bit. She wants to stop giving the impression that she thinks the most important part of being a woman is looks and looking sexy. :p

... ok ... looking sexy might be important to a young woman looking for a mate and wanting to start a family, but Caitlyn is 65 years old for goodness sake, plus she herself has said she is asexual.

flatlander_48

07-29-2015, 05:19 PM

... ok ... looking sexy might be important to a young woman looking for a mate and wanting to start a family, but Caitlyn is 65 years old for goodness sake, plus she herself has said she is asexual.

OK, I'm a year older than Ms. Jenner and there are others here who are older than me. I guess our time is already over and we just don't know it.

Further, I guess if you're 65 or over and you transition, your uniform should be Church Lady in a Size Ugly...

DeeAnn

Katey888

07-29-2015, 06:20 PM

I'm not suggesting she should look like a bag lady, just saying that it wouldn't hurt to stop making comments on how hard it is for a woman to look good and tone down her appearance a bit. She wants to stop giving the impression that she thinks the most important part of being a woman is looks and looking sexy. :p

Funny - on the first part you'd think CJ would be winning at least a little GG support on empathising with the effort that goes into looking the best you can... :thinking:

On the second part, it's hardly CJ's fault that practically the entire male world thinks that the most important part of being a woman is looks and looking sexy...? And because of that predisposition, a goodly proportion of the female world goes along with it too... :tongueout:

I'm not saying it's morally right - but it is the way the real world works... In any case, I think she'll tone it down eventually - but this is the big outing splash... I think before people make judgments they should try to put themselves in her position, with her background, environment and baggage, and then ask the question:

So how would I do this any differently if that were me...?

But that's tough to answer for all of us non-celebs because we really can't grasp the unreality of the unreal world she lives and moves in...

If she's still news beyond a Christmas special, I'll be pleasantly surprised...

Katey x

PS: And much better behaviour ladies - proud of you! :D

Eryn

07-29-2015, 06:21 PM

... ok ... looking sexy might be important to a young woman looking for a mate and wanting to start a family, but Caitlyn is 65 years old for goodness sake, plus she herself has said she is asexual.

I fall into the same group and I like looking as good as I am able. Where does looking good leave off and looking sexy begin? I'm a tall, reasonably slim person, so I love tall slinky maxidresses. They may not be strictly age-appropriate, but I think I pull them off well. Sexy? Well, that is in the eye of the beholder.

Let's also consider Jenner's environment. She's been around the Kardashian clan for years and has acquired personal assistants for clothing, hair, and makeup. Clothing designers are filling her closets. What are these assistants going to suggest? "We have these new Dior dresses, but today we're going to dress you like an aging librarian?" Of course not! They are going to make her look like what she is, a good looking celebrity.

Sara Jessica

07-29-2015, 06:42 PM

Reine, no matter who her target audience is (I believe it is all of us, from the Muggles who no not of what TG is all about to those who are well-entrenched in our community...yes, CD's too), it doesn't take away from Caitlyn's personal renaissance that is happening before our eyes, for better or for worse. I take no issue in how she presents herself. The VF cover was a splash and I wouldn't have expected her to look like Martha Stewart (not that there is anything wrong with looking like Martha Stewart, it's just that a VF debut is a hard place to imagine presenting as an iconic crafty gal presenting in crafty mode). And in keeping with the K clan and expectations of being part of a proverbial jet-set, not to mention what might be her mentality in wanting to look as trendy and well-put-together as possible, I don't expect things to change soon. She missed what many might call her prime "sexy" years, I cannot fault her for carrying that torch now, even if only for a while.

65 years of repression, I'm surprised she'd even be seen wearing capri's (but I'm glad she did!!!).

ReineD

07-29-2015, 11:48 PM

Further, I guess if you're 65 or over and you transition, your uniform should be Church Lady in a Size Ugly...

Did you bother to read and absorb the rest of my post? I am by no means suggesting that Caitlyn should be a Church Lady in Size Ugly. :straightface:

Funny - on the first part you'd think CJ would be winning at least a little GG support on empathising with the effort that goes into looking the best you can... :thinking:

On the second part, it's hardly CJ's fault that practically the entire male world thinks that the most important part of being a woman is looks and looking sexy...? And because of that predisposition, a goodly proportion of the female world goes along with it too... :tongueout:

I'm not saying it's morally right -

It's got nothing to do with morals, Katey. And yes, when I go out, I too wash my hair, wear clean clothes that fit well and that I think are becoming, put on earrings, use a bit of foundation and blush to even out my tone and look as healthy as I can. We absolutely shouldn't walk around as if we do not take pride in our appearance. But, there's a difference between the way that Kaitlyn has so far chosen to present, and how I describe it in my first sentence. Please tell me that you see this. lol. As to men being attracted to sexy women, yes of course they are. This is what propagates our species and it is wired into all of us. But, there is an age for everything, and not too many 65 year olds are out looking for mates in order to contribute to the propagation of the species. lol. If Kaitlyn was in her 30s, I'd tell her to go for it!

... and Eryn ... I know that CJ has been around the glam, I mentioned this in an earlier post. But, she herself has said she has an important message to deliver. And when people want to deliver important messages, they need to be aware of effective ways to do so, and they want to be believable. They don't want to put a lot of noise in the way that will distract the listeners. And in CJ's case, the "noise" is the obvious focus on her looks and appearance to the "I specifically want to look sexy in the type of clothes that appeal particularly to men" end of the spectrum, which opens the way for criticism toward her and potentially toward other TSs too. Do we really want people to think that the fundamental motive for MtF transition is to be hot and sexy?

Why is this so hard to understand for so many people here? +? +? +?

emma5410

07-30-2015, 12:29 AM

I understand what you are saying Reine but I think that it is understandable that she wants to try and mimic the 'Hollywood' glamour around her. I think she will settle down and dress more conservatively when she gets it out of her system.
Of course she does not have to. She is free to dress as she wishes.
The point about the way she dresses not being appropriate for delivering an important message is interesting. She is the message in a sense.

The message is that she is a woman so obviously how she looks and dresses is part of the message. If she did not look good she would become the object of even more derision. It would make her an easier target. The fact that she looks convincing will support her argument that she is a woman in the minds of a lot of people. To go to the extreme if she presented as a male and claimed she was a woman the general public would not take it seriously. I am not saying this is right but it is the way the world is. Ask anyone who does not pass how difficult life can be.

I stress again that I know this is not the way it should be but we live in a culture where appearance is very important. It may be wrong but it is the world we all live in and as a media celebrity she is living in an heightened version of it.

flatlander_48

07-30-2015, 12:41 AM

Did you bother to read and absorb the rest of my post? I am by no means suggesting that Caitlyn should be a Church Lady in Size Ugly.

It's sarcasm, child, sarcasm. Can you read and absorb humor?

The thing is, I think what you're asking is unrealistic. This person is an international celebrity and is on national TV and speaks before august bodies. You sound like you want her to dress like she's going to the mall. It's NOT going to happen. Personally I hope that she continues to look as well as she has. I see no point in trying to emulate a semi-ragamuffin just to keep the jaws from flapping in the trans community. And the thing is, I bet if she would look like you want, the other part of the trans community will start talking about how bad she looks.

Be aware that Ms. Jenner is from CelebrityLand, not SoccerMomVille.

DeeAnn

Kaitlyn Michele

07-30-2015, 08:22 AM

i have always believed that we win one person at a time... we have to let our humanity and good nature shine thru....we have to thrive and demonstrate it to loved ones and acquaintances so that when they are in that conversation about trannies or queens they are more willing to stand up and say we are all ok...

Having celebrities bring up the conversation is great for us because those of us that are out there talking can shine, we can thrive, we can turn people one by one...that is all going to happen in soccermom ville....
in fact in person we can easily point out that Caitlyn is not joan sixpack and allow ourselves to be the object of conversation, and move the ball forward

There is nothing Caitlyn can do except be herself...This is her, warts and all. Just like the rest of us...

i have seen a couple of pictures and moments with Caitlyn where i thought "ewwwww....way too much..." but ive seen pictures of lots of stars and thought the same thing....anty women can be sub
'"

ReineD

07-30-2015, 09:56 AM

The point about the way she dresses not being appropriate for delivering an important message is interesting. She is the message in a sense.

Yes! Exactly!!! She is the message and people will either have their existing attitudes about the motives for transition either confirmed or dispelled based on her appearance.

The message is that she is a woman so obviously how she looks and dresses is part of the message. If she did not look good she would become the object of even more derision.

OK ... I think I'm beginning to understand now. Somehow, you and perhaps others in this thread who defend her presentation believe that to look good must equal looking hot and sexy? And so a woman doesn't look good unless she wears the obvious trappings of sexiness (big boobs, low cut tops, tight clothes, showing leg or shoulder, big hair, elaborate eye makeup, etc)?

This is not the way that non-CDs see it, and what I am saying is that for people who have a hard time understanding that transitioning is not because TSs are gay and want to attract men, CJ's appearance thus far, combined with all her comments about how tough it is for a woman to "look good", are giving the wrong impression. Please believe me when I say that we have a lot more in our lives than concerns about appearing sexy. lol

Have you asked random people out there what they think of Caitlyn? I have and the answers were eye-opening. I admire CJ's efforts to communicate her message to the world but I hope she does tone it down eventually.

Dianne S

07-30-2015, 10:01 AM

ReineD

07-30-2015, 10:11 AM

If a genetic woman happens to like glamorous clothes, lots of makeup, etc. people will think it's just her style, and that perhaps she's a little shallow, but not that she's a bad representative for women.

You're right, the first impression will be that this GG is shallow. Look around at all the women you pass by every day, all the women you work with. Based on their appearance, what you think is the focus of their lives?

Trans women tend to face much more criticism if they do that, I think because they're perceived as caricaturing what it is to be a woman.

No, I think that TSs who give the impression they focus on their looks, will also be viewed upon as transitioning for shallow reasons. The TSs that I know don't present like Caitlyn.

arbon

07-30-2015, 12:38 PM

No, I think that TSs who give the impression they focus on their looks, will also be viewed upon as transitioning for shallow reasons. The TSs that I know don't present like Caitlyn.

It is more complicated I think. Most people still do not view us as real women no matter what we do and they judge us from that perceptive - how good are we at trying to be women. Not from the perspective that we are women. There are interesting standards for us. Like I have been accused of not trying hard enough to look better - I should dress nicer and wear more makeup. I have also been scolded for wearing high black boots with heals in the winter - omg now I am trying to be a drag queen! I've gone to far.

I was in a room with a bunch of cis women one time and another TS woman. The other TS woman made a comment about how us sisters need to stick together- The eyes rolled! How dare we think what it means to really be one of them and what it means to be a sister? I heard some comments later about what some of those women thought about what she said.

I notice a lot of my cis female friends will say things like "hey girl" or "you go girl" and similar comments to me, but to each other I rarely hear them saying the same things. Why?????? If I start making such comments often to people I have the feeling I would be viewed as trying harder to pretend I was a girl. Probably laying it on to much with my act.

Dianne S

07-30-2015, 01:44 PM

You're right, the first impression will be that this GG is shallow. Look around at all the women you pass by every day, all the women you work with. Based on their appearance, what you think is the focus of their lives?

In most cases, of course, their focus is not their looks nor on looking sexy. However, I have known and worked with women (not many, but a few) who really did dress glamorously most of the time and spend a lot of time on their looks. In some cases, they were shallow but in other cases, they were ordinary women who happened to enjoy that sort of thing.

No, I think that TSs who give the impression they focus on their looks, will also be viewed upon as transitioning for shallow reasons.

I somehow doubt those TSs care. And we also shouldn't care; it's not really our business.

emma5410

07-30-2015, 03:38 PM

OK ... I think I'm beginning to understand now. Somehow, you and perhaps others in this thread who defend her presentation believe that to look good must equal looking hot and sexy? And so a woman doesn't look good unless she wears the obvious trappings of sexiness (big boobs, low cut tops, tight clothes, showing leg or shoulder, big hair, elaborate eye makeup, etc)?

TS start with a major disadvantage to GGs. They have male faces and bodies. You probably look good without a huge amount of effort. I do not. I have to try hard to pass. By the way why do you assume that looking good means trying to be sexy, having big boobs etc. You can look good without doing that.

I have not seen many pictures of Caitlyn. Obviously the Vanity Fare cover was sexy but she was only doing what countless celebrities have done before. The other pictures have not been anything like that. However she dresses she is getting the message across and how she dresses is her business not yours. I think you are being very bitchy.

I work with a lot of women. Most of them wear more make up and all are far more 'glamorous' than me. But they are still taken seriously. They do not dress to be sexy they dress they way they want.

The focus of most TS lives is not looking sexy. We are too busy transitioning and trying to hold things together. The last thing I want to do is attract attention when I am out by looking 'sexy'. I must admit I am surprised by your comments. You obviously have some issues with the way other women dress. Why do you care? It is none of your business.

Barbara Jo

07-30-2015, 04:48 PM

I think there's a slight amount of hypocrisy regarding trans women. If a genetic woman happens to like glamorous clothes, lots of makeup, etc. people will think it's just her style, and that perhaps she's a little shallow, but not that she's a bad representative for women. Trans women tend to face much more criticism if they do that, I think because they're perceived as caricaturing what it is to be a woman.

For myself, I like to look good and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It is tiresome to hear people who obsess over clothes and go on about how hard it is to be a woman because you take so long to get ready, etc. But at least for me, it's no worse to hear that from Caitlyn Jenner than it would be from any other woman. It's her choice and her style and if it makes her happy, then fine.

IMO, that's just human nature at work .
If there are a few thousand on any given thing you have a much broader idea of whet it is even it there are some variances in it .
At the other end..... if there is only a small hand full of anything, you focus on the differences and there is much less to compare it to.

Al this makes it of the utmost importance that Cait act with maturity, etc, being ever mindful that the she is a role models and became someone the general public will judge other TS/TG and even CDs by.
She made herself a role model and a person to be judged as a TS/TG person so, she must play the part!

ReineD

07-30-2015, 05:43 PM

To everyone, my 21 year-old son just left. We had lunch. He was checking his fb page and showed me a pic of Caitlyn. It was a picture of Bruce on the Wheaties box, side by side with a pic of Caitlyn (not the most flattering pic) on a box of Froot Loops. My son showed it to me because he thought it was funny.

This is a boy that I raised to be open-minded and accepting. And he generally is ... he is friends with everyone no matter their sexual orientation, we had had a conversation when Leelah Alcorn (http://www.towleroad.com/2014/12/after-posting-a-heartbreaking-suicide-note-on-tumblr-a-transgender-ohio-teen-took-her-life-early-sunday-by-wandering-onto-an/) died and he felt that Leelah's parents should have helped her to transition. So we started a conversation about Caitlyn and I told him that CJ shouldn't be laughed at ... she wants to bring the plight of TSs to the public eye, she wants people to know there are individuals who suffer a great deal because large chunks of people in our society discriminate against TSs and transition. My son then told me he cannot take CJ seriously because of his (my son used "his") association with the K-clan and also if CJ wanted to help, "he" wouldn't have a reality show making lots of money off of it like Keeping Up With the Kardashians.

I'm sharing this with all of you so you will know how a lot of people really think. I do not think my son's opinions are isolated and most other people I spoke to had similar attitudes. This is not discrimination against TSs. This is discriminating against Caitlyn's current image.

So my point all along this forum discussion has been, if Caitlyn wants to reach the people who do discriminate against TSs (the people who do not understand the motives for transition), then she needs do distance herself from the K-clan, which necessarily means, stop dressing or presenting like them. The more she looks like she belongs in the K-camp, the harder it will be for people to take her seriously. If Caitlyn wants to reach young TSs and be a role model for them, she is not showing them the right way to dress if these TSs want to be taken seriously as well. I do want to add that she is being a positive role model for coming out to begin with but even so, CJ has so many advantages (money, fame, and the Hollywood bubble) that average young TSs do not have, that it is difficult to place her on the same page as them.

But, if people in this forum do not want to see this, that's OK.

It is more complicated I think. Most people still do not view us as real women no matter what we do and they judge us from that perceptive - how good are we at trying to be women.

I do. I see my TS friends as women. But, because of my exposure to my SO, the members of the support group that I know, this forum, etc, I understand more than a person who is not connected to this community.

Not from the perspective that we are women. There are interesting standards for us. Like I have been accused of not trying hard enough to look better - I should dress nicer and wear more makeup. I have also been scolded for wearing high black boots with heals in the winter - omg now I am trying to be a drag queen! I've gone to far.

I agree with you that TSs are examined under a harsh light. You mention criticism over wearing high boots, or not enough makeup. Everyone will have a different standard according to their personal taste. But, GGs have opinions about other GGs all the time too (even if they keep their opinions to themselves). For example, I have a friend who only wears blacks and grays. I love her dearly, but the colors she chooses make her look wan and tired, older than her years. If I should see a woman my age with mini skirts, a deep décolleté and lots of smokey eye makeup, of course I won't say anything to her but I will think that she is trying way too hard to look young and she would do herself a favor if she hid the cellulose, hid the sun damage on her chest, and toned down the makeup.

I notice a lot of my cis female friends will say things like "hey girl" or "you go girl" and similar comments to me, but to each other I rarely hear them saying the same things. Why??????

This is why I do not tell my TS friends, "you go girl", "you look grrrrreat", or "OMG you look better or have nicer legs than me". You are correct Arbon, we don't say these things to other GGs, and so singling out TSs or CDs to say them to is patronizing. I think the GGs who say this really mean, "I admire you for what you are doing". I do admire some things that people (both men and women) either wear or use in their homes and I compliment them on these things, but to tell a friend, "you go girl" is a bit much.

By the way why do you assume that looking good means trying to be sexy, having big boobs etc. You can look good without doing that.

That was exactly my point!! LOL. You said that CJ dresses the way she does to look good, and so I asked you if you thought it was necessary to wear these things if we want to look good. :p

Kaitlyn Michele

07-30-2015, 06:14 PM

i agree with a lot of what you are saying Reine...i think there is very little to be done about it, and i don't think the anecdote about your son translates to any big meta trend.

reaching people is hard...transsexuality is very difficult to understand....what ts people want is hard to get... many of us would prefer more dress down casual days for caitlyn...

nobody can be all things to all people.... caitlyn can't have it every way...her platform IS the k-clan... its true that its hard to take people in that circle seriously sometimes but thats the bargain...perhaps caitlyn can pull away...the ratings were so so, which means this can likely fade anyway.

i have two daughters ..they have their buddies and i see a lot of them...
in their circle they don't laugh at us...they are anti racist, anti phobic...etc...they and their friends are very serious about it...they stop being friends over this stuff

rightly or wrongly they would be in your son's face if he made that joke to them!!!! or joked about race or gender or anything that hurt others
however
..i don't think either your son or my kids represent anything but themselves and perhaps their friends...

AngelaYVR

07-30-2015, 06:24 PM

There are people on this forum who tell us that if we go to a mall wearing a dress that real women don't do that. I find it sad that looking nice is against the rules for some of us. CJ can wear whatever she wants to. Of course, it will also help sell her television programme. No matter how much of a public figure she is, she is still a private citizen. She doesn't owe anybody anything and if anybody thinks she's doing it wrong then they can become the next figurehead and show us the light.

Barbara Jo

07-30-2015, 06:54 PM

ReineD

07-30-2015, 09:24 PM

... many of us would prefer more dress down casual days for caitlyn...

nobody can be all things to all people....

I know and I agree. CJ will need time to learn and then she will adjust her presentation accordingly. But, I hope that people in the forum will understand why I am saying that it will be better all around when she does. I want people to get past how she presents and to pay attention to what she has to say.

rightly or wrongly they would be in your son's face if he made that joke to them!!!! or joked about race or gender or anything that hurt others
however
..i don't think either your son or my kids represent anything but themselves and perhaps their friends...

But that's just it, my son does not tell racial or gender jokes. He simply doesn't take CJ seriously because of the glam, the reality shows, and the association with the Kardashians, whom he has no respect for. And the eye-opener for me was, most people I spoke to (several friends and acquaintances, a few people at work, a hairdresser) expressed similar sentiments as my son. I didn't take it they were discriminating against TSs particularly ... it was directed toward CJ's presentation choices and her decision to continue with reality shows.

Katey888

07-31-2015, 05:25 AM

I think you're going way off piste now, Reine... It's bad enough when we have our own community fashion police but I'm staggered you feel you're in an authoritative position to say this:

CJ will need time to learn and then she will adjust her presentation accordingly. But, I hope that people in the forum will understand why I am saying that it will be better all around when she does.

"Better all round" for whom? You're just completely missing the context of her existence - as Kaitlyn has already said. the Kardashian's are her platform and family and her life is Hollywood. Of course 65-year old Mrs Jorgensen from Fargo doesn't look like CJ when she goes to buy chicken wire from the hardware store in her pickup truck (that's a deliberately exaggerated stereotype, btw - but it's in good company!) - CJ's life was, is, and will likely remain in, Hollywood... So when you said this earlier:

But, there's a difference between the way that Kaitlyn has so far chosen to present, and how I describe it in my first sentence

You make it sound like anyone who wants to be part of 'Celebrity' life has a choice...:confused: Like these ladies of Hollywood around CJ's age (or older):

248603248604248605248606

Are they glam and sexy? Are they trying to attract a mate? Trying too hard to look young? :Pfft:

Yeah - they don't look quite like this when they're shopping Rodeo Drive - but they look like this at awards ceremonies, and a heck of a lot different to Mrs Jorgensen when they are shopping because it is part of who they are. And yes, they'll tone down the image when they're giving a serious message for charity, good causes, whatever - but they'll still be glamorous and God bless them for being prepared to take glamour into older age rather than lapsing into utilitarianism non-fashions. :hmph:

Part of being taken seriously as celeb IS about how you present, how you look, and fitting with the media's expectations of that. I'm sure she will change over time, but that will take quite a while because I think she's trying to achieve acceptance on her terms and those that best fit with her environment - I expect it will take years before she's accepted for herself - something that most other TS's share, I imagine...

Not an 'ordinary' TS or CD by any means - but then she never could be...

For all of those who have issues with CJ's presentation - Get over it. Better or worse, it's Hollywood.

Katey x

Dianne S

07-31-2015, 06:49 AM

He simply doesn't take CJ seriously because of the glam, the reality shows, and the association with the Kardashians, whom he has no respect for.

Well, that's your son's problem, I think, not CJ's. Paparazzi culture in general is disgusting, so anyone famous who transitions is in a no-win situation, IMO. And I think CJ is handling it quite well.

sterusjon

07-31-2015, 07:33 AM

I would like to echo, amplify, Diane's point just above. Each of us, not just Reine's son, need to challenge ourselves to put ourselves into the other's world when we make our inevitable judgments about them. Even the attempt to make that transposition, in the case of Caitlyn, is futile for most of us. We, for the most part, cannot even begin to understand all that we would need to to make a wise judgement.

Caitlyn has her own needs. Her first duties are to herself, followed closely with those to her family. Anything she is willing and able to do for us within those parameters is icing on the cake. Be gracious and say "Thank you."

Stephanie

Bridget Ann Gilbert

07-31-2015, 09:06 AM

I see a bigger theme in Reine's critiques of CJ. It's the problem of stereotypes. Like it or not people will make sweeping generalizations based on a few examples, especially when those examples are OTT and highlighted by mass media. People do this in part out of intellectual laziness, but mostly because they just don't have a deep interest in things outside their normal existence. Reine has clearly stated her concern that the serious message CJ is trying to convey is being obscured by her overly glamorous presentation and that her presentation and behaviors play to stereotypes about women that Reine feels are unhelpful. These are important concerns and I, for one, support her for bringing them up.

I do think, though, that most of the flack CJ, is getting from folks outside the TG community is guilt by association with the Kardashians. I doubt few of them actually bothered to watch the first episode of her show. (For the record I haven't yet either. Cut the cable cord years ago.) They are just not paying close enough attention to even hear the message she's trying to tell. From that perspective I don't think it would make a big difference if she did tone down her appearance. Given that the practical effect would be negligible, I think she should dress in whatever way makes her feel good about herself. I suspect she has been in deep pink fog since transitioning, something exasperated by the VF shoot, TV show and the ESPYs. It's going to take her time to find her way out.

Bridget

ReineD

07-31-2015, 10:22 AM

I think you're going way off piste now, Reine... It's bad enough when we have our own community fashion police but I'm staggered you feel you're in an authoritative position to say this:

CJ will need time to learn and then she will adjust her presentation accordingly. But, I hope that people in the forum will understand why I am saying that it will be better all around when she does.

Maybe my last sentence above was poorly written? It means that I hope the people who participate in this thread and who do not believe I should have the opinion that it would be best if CJ toned it down, will understand my motives for saying what I say. I developed this opinion because I have spoken to a number of people who have no association with the TG community or CDs/TGs/TSs, and I was surprised at their negative reactions to Caitlyn, to the point where they are not listening to what she has to say. And it is my wish that these people and all others who feel the same way might be able to see Caitlyn for who she is, which is a woman who struggled to be her authentic self and not some person who is doing this for money or for other more shallow reasons, so they can hear the message that CJ delivers and believe it.

Katey ... the difference between the pics of the stars you show and CJ is, these stars are not telling the world "I am a woman who, due to society's negative attitudes about TSs and transition, lived unhappily in a male body all my life and now finally at age 65 I can be my authentic self". They are GGs who have always been GGs and who went to a gala. If they were coming out for the first time, I bet they would carefully choose their presentation at least for the first few months.

----

If anyone here finds this offensive or feels that I am being a fashion police or that I am somehow against the community, then sorry but I don't know what else to say. :p. Honestly, I'm getting the impression that many of you are putting Caitlyn on a pedestal to the point where you want to be in denial about how she is being received by average people.

----

Finally, last night I watched "I am Cait" and saw that Caitlyn herself is aware of what I am saying. When her mother was coming over to meet her, Caitlyn told her assistant to pick out an outfit that is (I cannot remember the exact words) not too femmy. And at the end of the show when Caitlyn went to meet the family and friends of a young 14 yr-old TS who had killed herself, she wore a simple black turtleneck top with a pair of black pants. The focus was not on boob, leg, etc.

... Dianne S, maybe you skimmed by some of what I posted, but it is not just my son (a person who does not discriminate against TSs) who thought the pic on fb captured Caitlyn's reality. Tons of other people do too, which proves that Caitlyn's message is NOT getting across to the muggles. Bruce was a pro at motivational speaking and a part of this job is knowing the best way to present in order to deliver a specific message. I've been hoping that Caitlyn will move beyond her need to present a certain way and tone it down a bit, and it looks as though on the show I saw last night, she is beginning to.

arbon

07-31-2015, 10:58 AM

----

If anyone here finds this offensive or feels that I am being a fashion police or that I am somehow against the community, then sorry but I don't know what else to say. :p. Honestly, I'm getting the impression that many of you are putting Caitlyn on a pedestal to the point where you want to be in denial about how she is being received by average people.

----

I don't find anything you write offensive. I appreciate your comments and point of view.

I was with a older male friend in Portland this last weekend and he brought up how Caitlyn is dressing and some of the things she has said. He had a very negative view. Which is the same type of reaction you are saying many people have.

It is frustrating and sad to me, not for what she is doing, but how people react and judge her. I am defensive of her. I almost wish she would be more offensive and shove it more into people's faces. I get tired and angry of the way people view and judge us.

Kaitlyn Michele

07-31-2015, 11:17 AM

from my standpoint reine what my responses are about is this

transsexuality at its core is about (imo) living out your authentic self... for some of us that transition, nothing less will do... others trade that for other things but most of us find over time is that you CANT trade...
Caitlyn didn't stop fighting until her 60s

I personally get the feeling that we are seeing the authentic Caitlyn warts and all... her age, her celebrity, her physicality, her money, her goofiness and her charm.... its all there..

i have cringed at some of the pics too but and if that means some people will judge her poorly, so be it,,, we can not and should not change her (of course i'm speaking rhetorically...she aint gonna change because of us!!)

ReineD

07-31-2015, 11:47 AM

=
It is frustrating and sad to me, not for what she is doing, but how people react and judge her.

It's frustrating to me too. But, I'm hoping that she will be able to cut through the bias and her message will be received.

... :hiding: and I think that if she tones it down a little (and I saw last night on the show that she is beginning to do this), it will help her to achieve her goals. What else can I say.

Dianne S

07-31-2015, 02:06 PM

Dianne S, maybe you skimmed by some of what I posted, but it is not just my son (a person who does not discriminate against TSs) who thought the pic on fb captured Caitlyn's reality. Tons of other people do too, which proves that Caitlyn's message is NOT getting across to the muggles.

Oh, quite possibly.

But Caitlyn dresses, presents and acts to please Caitlyn, not to impress the muggles. And while it might be fun to critique her --- heck, it's fun to critique a lot of Hollywood women's fashion choices --- I don't think she has a particular duty to care about our opinions any more than any other woman does.

Could it be that you (and others) believe that because she's a celebrity, she has a responsibility to present transgender women well to the wider public? I don't think she has that responsibility. I'm content to let her live her life however she likes.

ReineD

07-31-2015, 02:42 PM

Could it be that you (and others) believe that because she's a celebrity, she has a responsibility to present transgender women well to the wider public? I don't think she has that responsibility. I'm content to let her live her life however she likes.

It's not my belief that she has a responsibility to do anything. SHE believes that she has such a responsibility (she has said this repeatedly), I respect that, and I hope that she is successful. She wants to educate the public. I am saying that people dismiss what she says (her message is not getting across) because of the glam and the association with the K-clan. She apparently is aware of the glam-issue (according to the show I saw just last night), because she told her assistant to choose a "not too femmy" outfit for her first meeting with her mother. Also later on in the show, she purposely dressed in a plain black top up to her neck and black pants to lend support to the family of a young TS. I was happy to see this, because the way that she dressed lent credibility to what she was saying and doing.

GGs know that if they run for office, interview for jobs, are spokespersons at fundraising events for social issues, are in positions of authority at work, etc, in short anytime they want people to NOT look upon them as sexual objects, they will dress accordingly. Why should Caitlyn be any different. Surely her aim is not to be seen as a sexual object? If it is, then she should continue with the outfits she came out in and all power to her. But, I am taking it that this is not her primary goal. I'm actually defending her stated purpose!

Why is this so hard to understand. :wall:

Dianne S

07-31-2015, 03:02 PM

Why is this so hard to understand. :wall:

Because I still think it's a double standard. Let's pick a powerful Hollywood person: Meryl Streep. She's an ardent feminist (http://mic.com/articles/83089/how-meryl-streep-became-the-true-mother-of-hollywood-feminism) and not someone anyone would dismiss as shallow or lightweight, and yet is quite at ease with dressing sexily and glamourously (http://images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/galleries/517x/27876.jpg) for an awards ceremony.

Or how about Jodie Foster? Certainly a strong and opinionated woman, but also unafraid to dress sexily (http://o.aolcdn.com/pslca/gallery/i/f/foster/JodieFoste_Grani_1479365.jpg) when the lights are on her.

Caitlyn Jenner, for better or for worse. is a Hollywood celebrity. And she's acting like one. Let's cut her some slack.

Eryn

07-31-2015, 03:25 PM

Doesn't anyone remember the beginning of the first episode of I am Cait? She appeared without makeup at 3:00 AM. She herself expressed her anxiety at her inadequacy to represent the entire community. We should give her credit for her honesty on this.

I wonder what the reaction here would have been if she had decided to dress in frumpy mode all the time? Some would still say that she was a poor representative for our community because of that!

Does anyone remember Kristen Beck's documentary Lady Valor? She was filmed walking around a shooting range in heels while conducting a tactics class, hardly appropriate attire for the situation. Nobody said a word about it. It was Kristen expressing herself as she wished, something that every one of us wishes to do. Isn't Caitlyn deserving of the same respect?

As far as making statements about the difficulties of dealing with feminine issues, isn't this an honest expression of what every one of us has felt? Everything is difficult at first for us because we have to learn in weeks what GGs learn in decades. I used to take hours to get ready for an evening outing. Now I can be out the door on 20 minute's notice. Caitlyn will learn and mature just as we all did.

Most of Jenner's on-camera fashion choices are obviously made by her personal and production staff. That's pretty much how it is for people at that level of society. She hires experts and trusts their advice. So far it has worked pretty well for her. As Caitlyn learns more about the female experience I have no doubt that she will exert more personal control over her appearance.

If Jenner's program is going to do the community any good people have to watch it. Few are going to tune in to a program with a TS person sitting on a couch in sweats talking only about the downsides of her life. To draw an audience a show has to draw interest, which means giving viewers an interesting story and sufficient eye candy to keep them coming back. If Caitlyn can do this while also presenting a relatively positive image for the TG community it is beneficial for all of us, whether transitioning or closeted.

I hope that her show is successful and makes her a boatload of money. She has gone from hiding in the closet to having a job that a million girls would kill for.

ReineD

07-31-2015, 03:43 PM

OK, I'll give up trying to make you and others here understand. lol

... well, except for one last word but after that I'll be silent.

Meryl Streep and Jodie Foster are not battling misconceptions about their image or the social issues they undertake to educate the public. Whereas Caitlyn is. There is an existing bias that MtFs transition either for fetish or because they are gay and they are attracted to men. Caitlyn needs to be aware of these misconceptions if she wants people to dispel them. She will not easily dispel them if she dresses, from the outset, in a manner that reinforces the stereotypical image that prejudiced people have about TSs and CDs.

Once Caitlyn is established in her self-appointed role as spokesperson, once the public has seen Caitlyn in a variety of roles dressed in ways that do not always show off her boobs, legs, etc, and once all the nonsense about her presentation and her association with reality shows and the K-clan are done with, then she will indeed be on the same playing field as the GGs you've mentioned, who have been seen by the public for years in their various roles. Meryl Streep and Jodie Foster are not always seen in slinky dresses or on magazine covers in bustiers, especially when they are engaging in their activism.

<Edit> Eryn, the conversation about Caitlyn's presentation began long before the latest show where I and the rest of the public saw her tell her assistant to choose a sensible outfit for her first meeting with her mother, and before we saw her in black pants and top at the end of the show. Weeks ago I said that I hoped Caitlyn would tone down her presentation and the disagreements in this thread are based on my statements, before the "I am Cait" show came out.

Also, not showing off boobs, legs, etc does not need to mean that the manner of dress has to be frumpy? If so, then are all the GGs in your life and mine "frumpy"? :p

flatlander_48

07-31-2015, 04:36 PM

You know, we can't always pick our s/heros. They tend to just show up, unannounced and often unheralded. But the thing is, would we dare to talk about Superman's choice of wardrobe?

"Dude, what's up with the tights and cape? Looks kinda swishy, if you ask me...".

Would we dare to comment on the Green Lantern's color coordination skills?

"Dude, that green looks like pureed kale. Uggggghhhh..."

Or Wonder Woman's chice of uniform?

"Girl, does it JUST have to be cut down to There and up to Here?"

Silly, isn't it? This haste to judge a book by it cover is absurd. PARTICULARLY since many want to judge that book by the other ones that also happen to be adjacent to it on the shelf. Read the book for yourselves people; THEN decide. If we can't get beyond the visuals, what hope do the regular folk have?

DeeAnn

Eryn

07-31-2015, 06:07 PM

I was trying to think of a good example of older women who are daily in the public eye. The cast of The View comes to mind. I did a search for images of them and this is one of many similar images:

248653

Ok, let's analyze the ladies who fall into the CJ's age range using the same pickiness shown for CJ.

Whoopi, nearing 60, is pretty casual. Whoopi marches to nobody's drum so frumpy suits her.

Joy Behar is showing a pretty low neckline and high hemline for a person in her '60s. And look at those heels, who is she trying to impress?

Barbara Walters, well into her 80s, with a plunging keyhole neckline? Looking for a new mate is she? I can't see much of her shoes, but those pointy toes probably precede some spiky heels.

So, two out of three of the older ladies are wearing clothing that some here would consider inappropriate. Yet for some reason they are not judged. Perhaps that is because they look fine if the observer isn't trying to find something to nit-pick. The fact is, they are fine and well within the norms for women on television.

People here are judging CJ on a very few data points. One interview (where she was still Bruce), one photo shoot in Vanity Fair, one television appearance as herself, and a few random shots from paparazzi that are far from flattering. Hardly a fair representation.

Yes, I want CJ to present a more representative view of the TG community, but she'll need far more than one show to do that. She has to maintain her audience. Give her a chance and, if past performance is any indication, she will do all of us proud.

Dianne S

07-31-2015, 09:45 PM

Meryl Streep and Jodie Foster are not battling misconceptions about their image or the social issues they undertake to educate the public. Whereas Caitlyn is.

Even if that's true, so what? I don't think she should worry about modifying her behavior to avoid misconceptions by prejudiced people.

I was out for dinner with three other transwomen the other night. They were all saying how they tried to avoid overtly feminine clothes at work to "fit in" with other women who tended to wear pants and tops. But I pretty much always wear a dress or a skirt at work, even though that's not the norm. I do that because I like those types of clothes, they're very comfortable in hot weather, and I'll be damned if I went through transition to live an authentic life only to be forced to censor my choice of clothes.

Reine, I actually do understand your point. But I think that given Caitlyn's position as a Hollywood celebrity, associated with a rather notorious family, she's not a bad representative of trans people at all.

ReineD

07-31-2015, 10:31 PM

Diane, you can wear dresses and skirts. And so can I, and Caitlyn, and any female-identified person there is, no matter their birth sex. Even CDers can wear skirts! :) There's just a difference between the types of dresses and skirts that people can choose from, for example a skirt you'd wear to the office party vs a skirt you'd wear on a hot date when you really want to impress the guy you're with. ;)

And Eryn, if Caitlyn had come out on the Vanity Fair cover wearing any of the outfits in the picture you posted and striking any of the poses like any of the ladies in that picture, I would not have suggested that she tone it down a little. :)

Reine, I actually do understand your point. But I think that given Caitlyn's position as a Hollywood celebrity, associated with a rather notorious family, she's not a bad representative of trans people at all.

I think it may be best at this point to just adopt a wait and see attitude with Caitlyn, and see how she does in her personal life and how she progresses on her show. I like her a lot, I love that she wants to let the world know how difficult it is for TSs, and I sincerely hope that she reaches all her goals. I also hope that the people in the day-to-day world who do not "get" Caitlyn will change their attitudes about her and begin to take her for her authentic self, as time wears on ... since these are precisely the people that CJ wants to reach. She is out there sharing her knowledge with the people who do judge TSs negatively. CJ doesn't need to educate the people who would hire TSs, rent them apartments, or the parents who already support their TS kids.

:hugs:

Eryn

08-01-2015, 03:16 AM

...And Eryn, if Caitlyn had come out on the Vanity Fair cover wearing any of the outfits in the picture you posted and striking any of the poses like any of the ladies in that picture, I would not have suggested that she tone it down a little. :)...

Umm. It's Vanity Fair! 90 percent of their covers are racy, and the other 10% depict males! It's what they do! :)

flatlander_48

08-01-2015, 05:52 AM

I guess transwomen are not allowed to have vanity...

DeeAnn

Marcelle

08-01-2015, 06:07 AM

I wasn't going to respond to this thread anymore as I really feel this horse has been beat to death, brought back from the dead and now the zombie horse is being beat to death yet again :dh2: . . . seriously just agree to disagree and let this go. However, this comment made me laugh so loud I scared my dogs out of their slumber . . .

You know, we can't always pick our s/heros. They tend to just show up, unannounced and often unheralded. But the thing is, would we dare to talk about Superman's choice of wardrobe?

"Dude, what's up with the tights and cape? Looks kinda swishy, if you ask me...".

Cheers

Isha

Kaitlyn Michele

08-01-2015, 08:53 AM

Caitlyn cannot win..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3182077/Time-left-turn-Caitlyn-Jenner-comes-fire-transgender-friends-conservative-Cait-trailer.html

She simply must continue to be herself..
As a transsexual I know more than anyone the power of just finally being myself...

this is not meant to be a political statement..just an example of how she is going to get attacked and attacked, over and over..

perhaps that's what people want? for her to be somebody else so she can support THEM and their ISSUEs, instead of being herself, making a living, living her life and doing her best to support others.

Tina_gm

08-01-2015, 12:39 PM

Here are some of my thoughts- Caitlyn may be doing the trans community a service in bringing it to the spotlight, but at the same time, is as far from reality as ever. 1st, there really is no such thing as a "reality" show. It is a show, just like any other and it is all just the clever appearance of reality, but there really is none.

Caitlyn went from an undercover CDer to a hollywood Diva in .05 seconds. Now, most women, or transwomen would LOVE to live her life. Only .00001% of any women or transwomen do. Getting photographed by the worlds leading photographers. Wearing dresses and other clothing by the worlds leading clothing designers... and world leading price tags which I would bet a paycheck on that she does not have to pay. (she might even get paid to wear them) Really, how hard is it for her to find something to wear?? A lot harder when you do not have unlimited resources from the worlds leading designers offering their products up to you without cost. And all of the people who are the best of the best making Caitlyn look her best.

I am not really blaming Caitlyn for taking advantage of all of this. I think most of us would, as would most GG's if they were offered this as well. I agree with any others that there is some issues going on with what the rest of the TG world has to endure that Caitlyn does not. The price tag of Caitlyn's public transition of becoming a hollywood diva is not that of the vast majority of those who are TG of whatever sort. And, sadly, I think it may be creating a bigger rift between TS and CD then there should be. There should not be a rift at all IMO.

Unfortunately, we are seeing a transition to a hollywood Diva far more than we are to becoming a woman that the general population can identify with or as.