Two weeks at work . . . jazz hands, marginalized, comfy shoes and bare arms

[Marcelle]

Hello all . . . I know . . . odd title choice. :wtf:

I just finished my second week of work under the agreed upon workplace accommodation of presenting as a woman when I feel a requirement to do so. Last week it was the full week, this week it was 2 days. It was . . . interesting and a bit surreal at times but none the less, it is becoming more common place in the building. Well at least I didn't get half as many stares as I did last week and people stopped finding excuses to wander by my cubicle "Umm . . . is the coffee machine around here?.

All in all, it was really a non-event as most people either chose to engage and be friendly or ignore. I believe the pre-education briefings probably helped although there are still a few awkward moments when people get on the elevator I happen to be in. Most people are getting used to the switch in gender pronouns and titles although I still get the odd “Yes Sir, I mean Ma’am . . . sorry about that Sir . . . I mean Ma’am” :doh:. . . Exit stage right jazz hands engaged. While this happens quite a bit, I cut people a lot of slack because it can be confusing but I have to admit the glimmer of evil which resides in my core, does get a chuckle when this occurs but of course I keep that to myself :devil:.

Now for an interesting experience . . . Last week I was attending a meeting as the resident subject matter expert which means that there was nobody else in that room with more knowledge about the subject than me. There were eight other participants, an all-male cast and Marcelle (girl me). I knew it was going to be awkward as these were some strong alpha male mucho macho men so, I started the meeting slowly and let people adjust and figured I would cut them some slack. However, before I knew it, I was being marginalized and talked over by people who knew less about the subject than me with the odd “kind of what she said” (well at least they go the pronoun right) thrown in for good measure :facepalm:. Heck, I was half expecting someone to tell me to go fetch coffee while slapping my butt. My internal voice screamed “What are you doing? Stop cutting these clowns a break and take control of the meeting”. When I tried in my female voice (or a close proximity of one) . . . Nada, just the odd did she just say something stare :confused:and then back to their sidebar discussions :blah:. It took my male voice to bring them back in line. Eventually they got it and I returned to my female voice and things went better but every so often, they would start down that road again but I got very good at my "not impressed gentlemen" stare :raisedeyebrow: and they stopped: . . . very surreal.

It has been a learning experience for certain. Before I started presenting at work, if I was presenting it was on my terms on my own time. I could dress as I please (jeans, comfy shoes) and spend as much or as little time out and about. However, now that I work some days identifying as a woman, that means I spend the whole day as a woman start to finish. Clothing choice is business casual so I have learned that while heels might look nice as do some sandals or flats . . . nothing beats a nice pair of comfy running shoes when taking public transit especially if you have to walk four blocks to work from your bus stop. They might not be haute couture with a skirt but my feet thank me . . . heels/flats/sandals go on in the office and off for the commute home. We have been having a heat wave of sorts and I still struggle with sleeveless and my arms, but sweaters (to cover my arms) on public transit are super warm to downright hot if the AC is not working. While I tried short sleeves and jeans once, I was not sure how I would look in a sleeveless sundress but it was my lovely wife who finally gave me the push to just be comfortable. I had a dress on and asked her what she thought about sleeveless. She looked at me and said “Sweetie, how can I say this delicately . . . you are not fooling anyone so you might as well be comfortable and just go sleeveless” . . . you mean I don't look like a gorgeous 50+ woman . . . my life is shattered :eek:. It may sound harsh but she was right. When I identify as a woman, it is just me and all my male physiology and to be honest “the kid ain’t pretty” so having a more burly upper body than your average gal, is something I just have to live with and the least of my worries. It was the last hurdle for me to finally come to accept me for me and it feels very nice indeed to not worry about it . . . okay, perhaps I am still a bit self-conscious but it is getting better. :)

Cheers

Isha (Marcelle)

[flatlander_48]

I:

To follow up a bit on what you said and along with various discussions here about male privilege, you really have a unique situation. Any of your colleagues with half a brain (I realize that sometimes this is a challenge!) should be able to see the dynamics at work. Elsewhere I said that what seems like male privilege from the male perspective (if they admitted it) is really what females would call sexism. Same coin, different sides.

If people were to really think about their behaviors and reactions, it would be very clear as to what is happening. This is a great Teaching Moment, so I hope some light bulbs will go off for some of your colleagues.

DeeAnn

[Ineke Vashon]

By coincidence, this morning I was watching TV news, as usual with one female and one male presenter. I made a comment to a lady friend why there are always two announcers. She answered: "the woman for sex appeal, the male for authority." Sad, but that is still the norm for many. And will take time changing. But changes are here.

You are handling your 'presentation' very well. Isha, you are a leader.

Ineke

[SharonDenise]

I'm proud of you Isha and what you're doing. It took courage to come out at work as Marcelle. You look pretty in your picture, I think you're too hard on yourself. What do you do to vocalize in a female ?

[justmetoo]

Sounds like a good learning experience, for you, and hopefully for your colleagues/co-workers, too. It's interesting to read about your experiences and things you are learning along the way, from simpler things like wearing running shoes while in transit, as it were, to more serious fundamental things like being talked over by the "guys" while you're presenting as female. Examples like that make me double-check myself when I'm in meetings with female co-workers to try to make sure I'm not doing things like that (it's easy to forget in the sometimes tense/intense discussions we sometimes have).

[LeslieSD]

That's amazing of what you do, and please keep sharing your progresses with us.

[ReineD]

When I tried in my female voice (or a close proximity of one) . . . Nada, just the odd did she just say something stare :confused:and then back to their sidebar discussions :blah:. It took my male voice to bring them back in line.

I wish I could do that. I can and do lower my voice and try to have it come from the diaphragm, but my problem is that they still know I'm a woman. They're not purposely discriminating against me, it seems to be ingrained no matter their best intentions.

Yes. Having a man's voice on occasion would come in handy.

Congratulations on your accomplishments. Are there certain days when street wear is allowed, and other days when you must wear a (woman's) uniform, or have they dispensed with uniform wear?

[Jazzy Jaz]

I admire the courage you have within your workplace. Even though it may seem hopeless in dealing with some people, i think you handled that situation very well by owning your authority in that meeting and showing that you expect to be respected. Its because of you asserting your role and not accepting sidelining that those men changed thier course, and although they kept testing for weakness, you continuing to hold firm in your position i believe will eventually bring them to respect you whether they like it or not.

[pamela7]

Well done Isha for keeping them in line. How else would a woman have done it?
When I worked in in the engineering world, serving defence clientele mostly, there was a smattering of female managers around, but I really don't recall them being ignored or talked-over. The ones I recall were outspoken, strong, knowledgeable and held their own, and were respected by the men present. They were in my opinion the better "man-managers" ;-).
Comfort is the fundamental requirement of allday wear, and has been the basis for crossdressing clothing choices from the beginning. I do have heels but they are for the exception not the norm. Flats are the norm.
I can see it is coming, so I'll just say there will be a time when you feel in your power, as a woman, and there will be no male attempts to cut you out. Can you imagine anyone cutting out Angela Merkel?

[flatlander_48]

They're not purposely discriminating against me, it seems to be ingrained no matter their best intentions.

No, what they are doing in unconsciously discriminating against you. It is purposeful, but they have no awareness of their actions. If you point it out, being in denial makes it very easy to claim that they didn't do anything.


Can you imagine anyone cutting out Angela Merkel?

Note that she would usually outrank everyone else in the room. In considering her personality and her title, it would be difficult to say where one ends and the other begins.

DeeAnn

[Sarah Doepner]

And those are probably the same men who just may claim they understand male privilege and do their best to support women. This is such a deeply ingrained trait that it will take a long time to fix. I'm with the rest of those who are impressed by your strength and pulling for success as you move forward.

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Thanks much for the comments and support.



. . . Are there certain days when street wear is allowed, and other days when you must wear a (woman's) uniform, or have they dispensed with uniform wear?

Hi Reine,

Fridays are typically what we refer to as "civie (civilian) clothing day". Nobody is really certain were the convention came from but we accept is as sacrosanct and dress accordingly (business casual). The uniform thing is still not quite figured out as I am only allowed to draw male dress uniforms as my gender marker says male and I don't have online access to female uniforms. The provider of Canadian military uniforms is still trying to come to terms with a person having two gender markers. So until they do, I have been authorized appropriate civilian clothing (business casual) at work on those days I identify as a woman.

Cheers all

Isha

[Donnagirl]

Isha,

I'm just in awe of what your achieving... In true Aussie vernacular, 'you're a bloody legend!'.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

I'm curious what the dynamic might be like the next time you are the subject matter expert but running the meeting in male mode. Is it really a case of ingrained male habits to marginalize a female, or have you lost some esteem in their eyes since coming out? Since you were able to use male voice to bring them back in line I suspect the former, but it might be something to pay attention to in the future.

That said, it sounds like you and your colleagues are adapting well to the new normal. Thanks for the progress report.

Bridget

[mechamoose]

#1 member of the Isha fanclub here...

But I have to ask you about this:

When I tried in my female voice (or a close proximity of one) . . . Nada, just the odd did she just say something stare and then back to their sidebar discussions . It took my male voice to bring them back in line.

Did it *really* require your male voice?

Would it have been the same way with an XX Officer?

My belief is that it shouldn't have. Your badge should have spoken louder. Spongebob Squarepants should be heeded with the right stature & piping. (That is ADMIRAL Squarepants to YOU)

Please don't be thankful for what you have, Isha. You are eff'n BLESSED if you just took it that way. I suggest that you push it further and act the way you expect to be treated, even as the average schlup. Where do you want our *average* rights to be?

Don't get me wrong, I have never been as impressed by anyone's actions as much as I have been of yours,

I'm just asking you not to stop.

Let me know how I might be be able to help. pretty.

- MM

[Marcelle]

Hi MM,

Don't worry too much about this . . . I take it as blip on the radar screen of people getting used to the idea. For the most part, within my own directorate, not an issue but given my new job I have to interact with a wide variety of folks outside of my directorate who are definitely outside of their comfort zone with me and that includes both men and women. This just kind of threw me for a loop as I was not expecting it (I know kind of naïve thinking on my part). So I defaulted to what I know best to bring order to chaos and it kind of worked. However, once that was put to rest I remained true to Marcelle. It is my intent not to default to male voice again . . . now bear in mind when I say female voice it is not lithe, willowy or melodious by any stretch of the imagination, just a bit softer than my current male voice. But it is Marcelle's voice and that is what she will use from now on.

Hi Bridgette,

It is possible it was a case of loosing some sort of "male street cred" with these guys. I guess we'll see on Tuesday as we have a follow-up meeting and right now I am on a Marcel vice Marcelle track so if I am still all guy on Tuesday and the same thing happens, it is likely a street cred vice marginalized woman thing.

Cheers

Isha

[mykell]

morning Marcelle,
you are truly a trans ally, what im referring to is a question i was asked at a support meeting i attended previously, my reply was weak by comparison, all you have accomplished in you brief time here transcends what most of us are able to contribute, thank you for just being you and sharing it with us, the good the bad and the ugly....your stories and events are inspirational, sharing a Marcelle moment, thanks again....

[stacycoral]

Girl you are doing so great for all girls here, i can say is THAT THE WAY TO GO GIRL!!!!!!!!!! hugs,

[Katey888]

Intriguing... I think that speaks volumes as to how much visual stimulus impacts the all-male of the species... and - actually - how much you are taken for female on the days you're feeling that way.. :thinking:

Pondering on that, just maybe there's something more subliminal going on there too: obviously you only present female on the days you're feeling that way, perhaps there are also some subtle changes in your behaviour that are triggering female recognition in other folk... It can't just be the presentation, although that may be the most overt signal...

And it's nice to see you can have a teensy bit subversive fun with it too... :devil:

Katey x

[kimdl93]

Always listen to your wife on practical matters, and enjoy the sleeveless sun dress!

[mechamoose]

now bear in mind when I say female voice it is not lithe, willowy or melodious by any stretch of the imagination, just a bit softer than my current male voice. But it is Marcelle's voice and that is what she will use from now on.

I'm kinda mentally hearing Katherine Hepburn.

Or is it more like this? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71Lft6EQh-Y)

- MM

[Marcelle]

MM,

LOL . . . I guess a cross of the two . . . Drill Sergeant Major Katherine Hartman???? :)

Cheers

Isha

[stefan37]

Hence the difficulty trying to gain acceptance as a woman. You are blazing a very different trail. It is confusing to deal with an individual as male one day and female the next. The majority will be respectful, and probably accepting. But rarely will they equate you as female. Even those days you wear female attire.
I spoke about expressing female, but resorting back to male when expedient. If you expect to be accepted as female, you can't resort back to male behavior. You will need to find a different way to communicate on those days you express as female. You need to find a way to keep control as a female. Those skills will be needed when you retire from military life to private industry. Where following commands due to rank are not as strict.

[mechamoose]

I think Isha is showing us both sides.

When she is perceived as female, she is often dismissed. Only when reaching into the 'bag 'o male' does she get things back. We are silly monkeys.

- MM

[stefan37]

That was my point a couple of posts ago. While Isha thinks she gave up her male card. The gender fluidity she exhibits allows the male to show when needed. To truly be accepted as female. So when expressing as female, there needs to be a way to take control as a female and not as a male. But then again that fluidity will allow switching back and forth regardless of external presentation.
Just to be clear. I absolutely respect what you are doing. You are far more authentic than many others. You are showing the world your fluid identity. It is in many ways way more difficult than flat out transitioning.

[Katey888]

While Isha thinks she gave up her male card. The gender fluidity she exhibits allows the male to show when needed. To truly be accepted as female. So when expressing as female, there needs to be a way to take control as a female and not as a male. But then again that fluidity will allow switching back and forth regardless of external presentation.


Hi Stefan - it's for Isha to answer, but I don't get the feeling she thinks she gave up her male card - perhaps even on 'female' days..? I think I'd see this as one of the differentiating aspects of being gender fluid - she won't/ can't be accepted as female because of the switching back and forth, but at the same time it confers some advantage of being able to lapse to male-mode to some degree, when required. I don't think this makes her (or any of us) any less authentic, it's just an aspect of complexity about us and the way we relate to the world in a variable rather than fixed-binary way.

More difficult in some ways - not so in others... :) Almost certainly more complicated when personal or professional relationships are involved and certainly ground-breaking... (possibly perceived 'ball-breaking' by some male colleagues, somewhat ironically... :heehee:)

Katey x

[stefan37]

Isha herself had suggested she gave up her male card. And as I stated. She is far more authentic and living it than most can or will. I have great admiration for anybody that comes out professionally or socially. I know from personal experience how difficult and disruptive it can be.

[Candice June Lee]

Isha, I love this. My job isnt one that takes to females easily. Dirt, grease, sharp edges, and such. So the girls have to undo make upand nails. So presentkng as a female for is out of the question at work. Though i, like you have come to terms on my upper body. My wife supportive, and i havnt crossed a threshold of more fem presentation. But i dont look all that fem in upper areas of my body. So i have to just accept how i am and be comfy and happy presenting as fem as i can. Still gotta work the make up thjng more.
Glad to see you can present at work, it sounds great, and you have over come some fears that i and others may not have conquered yet.
Glad your having a blast with it as it sounds.

[Persephone]

Isha,

You are incredible! You constantly have my admiration every day.

As to the events you described, I'm afraid you've fallen through the looking glass and are now seeing the world from the other side. My spouse, prior to her retirement, was a high ranking executive in a cutting-edge military-industrial firm dominated by engineers. Every time I complain about guys talking over me as if I'm not there she simply says, "Welcome to my world."

It takes a lot of skill to overcome that as a woman. I'm confident that you will learn the tricks and will soon have the men eating out of the palm of your hand... you know, like feeding pigeons.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Jodi]

I don't know about Canada,but here in the states, we are allowed to go sleeveless. We have a constitutional right to "bare arms". (lol)

Jodi

[Marcelle]

Hi Stefan,

WRT giving up my male card, you are correct in that I stated something along that lines in another post but it was more about "male privilege" and that being able to play the "male card" would be difficult once people have seen me presenting as a woman . I guess resorting to male voice was my one way to get everyone's attention and no doubt this was their attempt to co-opt the meeting to their way of thinking . . . they did not like what I had do say and so I truly believe they thought "heck he's dressed like a woman so perhaps he'll be a push over". In a way I let them go a bit too long and should have shut them down immediately . . . I won't be making that mistake again :).

As far as acting like a male vice a female, there really isn't much difference except the voice (and as I said it is not that stellar), mannerisms and clothing. My personality does not change and I interact the same as a woman as I would as a man. It is not like I hulked up to the front of the meeting room in my best John Wayne walk, spit some tobacco on the ground and challenged all to an arm wrestle. It was the following sentence which ended the side bar conversation:

"Gentleman, in what Narnia reality do you believe that the military is a democracy. I am the subject matter expert and ranking officer at this table so this is a matter of me on send and you on receive. If you are uncomfortable with the way I look, get over it or leave . . . are we tracking now?" I suppose I could have done the same in my female voice but old habits die hard. After that I continued with my female voice and things simmered down. Were they pushing my buttons, testing the water of just seeing how far they could go? Yup that is the nature of the military, look for a week link and make your move. However, there won't be any more slack cut at meetings on my watch . . . male or female.

Cheers

Isha

[flatlander_48]

I:

The point you raise about not stopping the discordance soon enough is important, I think. When this has happened to me during meetings that I have led in the past, from the perspective of a black male, I learned that righting the ship sooner rather than later was good. My guess is that I was hoping that the situation would fix itself without my intervention. Wishful thinking on my part...

DeeAnn

[Persephone]

Isha,

You might be interested in the following article (Click here for complete article) (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/thwart-gender-bias-at-work-221831411.html):

The one thing women can do to thwart gender bias at work

"In a new study by VitalSmarts, a workplace training and consultancy firm, researchers found that a woman who asserted her opinion at work forcefully was not only perceived as less competent but also as less valuable than an equally assertive male counterpart. Their findings shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone who’s been paying attention to news on gender politics lately — there’s a long and well-documented string of research that supports the notion that women get penalized when they fail to embody certain gender stereotypes. But VitalSmarts’ study goes a step further, showing not only how much gender bias can cost women but also experimenting with simple strategies women can use to thwart it."

Overall, a very interesting study.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[ReineD]

You might be interested in the following article (Click here for complete article) (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/thwart-gender-bias-at-work-221831411.html):

How interesting! They showed the video where both a man and a woman actor were being forceful with the same script. Their approval ratings both dropped (the woman's by 15% and the man's by 6%). But the most interesting for me is, the woman was given a higher competency rate to begin with! :) She was rated as deserving a salary of $106k (which dropped 14% to $91K when she was forceful), while the man was rated as deserving a salary of only $97k (which dropped 6% to just under $91k when he was being forceful).

The conclusion was that if both men AND women preface their strong statements with an explanation of why their opinions are strong, both their approval rates will increase ... a valuable reminder that it's important to be good communicators.

The article also mentions a project at Harvard that measures people's inherent biases. Coincidentally, I posted the link to Harvard's IAT (Implicit Association Test) just last night if anyone wants to have a go:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?230266-What-are-your-thoughts-on-male-privilege&p=3788922&viewfull=1#post3788922

[Marcelle]

Isha,

You might be interested in the following article (Click here for complete article) (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/thwart-gender-bias-at-work-221831411.html):

Hi Persephone,

Interesting article. Funny thing is I tend to use this same approach when dealing with "difficult" people. Indeed it is a common thing employed in the military. Provide a nice and calming sedge way, follow up with the hammer then leave them on a good note. Believe me it pays dividends . . . management 101 sort to speak. However, sometimes (especially in the military) you just need the hammer as that is what some only comprehend. It would be interesting to conduct the same study with military people and the actors in military uniforms. I wonder if you would get the same results.

Cheers

Isha