What are your thoughts on male privilege?

[JenniferYager]

This sort of came up in Isha's post, but I didn't want to hijack it.

Question is: what are your thoughts on "male privilege?"
- What is it? Can you define it?
- Does it exist everywhere? Is it a work thing, social thing, or something else entirely?
- Is there a female privilege (say, in the nursing field)?
- How have you experienced it while crossdressing?
- Is it a problem that is solveable? Is it entirely on men to solve, or is it more a sexual difference problem that requires work on both sides? Or, do we even need to solve it?

My thoughts: I think it's less of a male thing and more of an aggressive thing.

I've seen females in many meetings and discussions get ignored because of one or two loud mouths at a table (who are normally men). To me, that's a leadership problem, because whomever runs the meeting needs to ensure that the group gets the best ideas, no matter where they come from. I've personally told people to pipe down and specifically called on quieter people (female and male) to get their ideas, and in the end we get a better product.

On the flip side, I had a very aggressive female on a job that just ran rough shod over everyone's opinions. She was bad for morale and didn't listen to anyone, male or female. It took some time but I got her bad habits under control and helped teach her how to be inclusive while also still harnessing her drive to get things done.

As a crossdresser, I've gotten a small taste of the flip side, but because I haven't gone to work in female mode, my experiences are limited to being oggled and bumped up on at bars and occasionally talked over in conversation. For me though, part of the allure of crossdressing is being completely different, so I enjoy being a lot more passive and having the attention without having to take the lead on things. Plus it means I did a good job on makeup/cleavage :)

But I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[kimdl93]

I have worked with patient, compassionate and empathetic people of both genders and A**holes (that's a technical term) of both as well.

[Leslie Langford]

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Women constantly complain about this alleged "male" privilege, which seems to be exacerbated in their eyes if one happens to be Caucasian. As with beauty, this concept is often in the eyes of the beholder.

The feminists launched their war on the male population in earnest about 50 years ago, and while they will never admit it, they have pretty much achieved their fundamental goals in all of the areas previously under contention. Women today can do anything - and often more - than a man can do, including freely wearing opposite-sex clothing (or a reasonable facsimile thereof), as many here continuously lament.:heehee: :doh:

What the feminists don't talk about is the female sense of entitlement that they have historically laid claim to and which includes expectations of deferential and chivalrous treatment on the part of their male counterparts ("Happy wife, happy life", "If Momma's happy, everyone is happy" etc.). This is something that they have yet to volunteer giving up in the name of the "equality" that they are so adamant in pursuing...

[Ezekiel]

Leslie, feminists still complain because there are still many issues that are far from being gender equal. The fact that women are paid less than men everywhere is something to start with, but the list goes on and on.

So no, females do not really have much of a privilege to talk about...

Regarding dressing unacceptance of certain clothes when worn by men (female associated clothing - basically crossdresing, or anything perceived outside the norm for a man), it is males that do this to themselves prohibiting their own gender many things because of very stupid ideas, so you should blame this kind of machism for not letting you express yourself freely, and instead of attacking feminists, you should support them, because it will be helpful for us all.

[Robin414]

I've never even though it existed until somewhat recently but now it's all I think about (when I stop to think about it, yikes, infinite loooooop)😐 It certainly DID exist, women weren't allowed to vote, have a job, or drive a car not 'that' long ago but obviously things have changed significantly. That said though the fact remains female CEOs make significantly less than their male counterparts and I think that still does trickle down. Interesting fact though, the highest paid female CEO in the US is actually TG😃

[Katey888]

Yes - of course privilege exists...

On all sides - male-female... just differently - and it's probably exaggerated in commerce, industry, finance. But would anyone deny that males and females are different? Total equality (for anyone, not just gender equality) is a Utopian ideal - we can strive for it, but it can never be attained, although we can definitely get closer... :)

I've had male and female bosses in business - on balance, the women have been as good as the men and I've probably had a better relationship with them (hmmm... maybe something there... :thinking:) - I don't think this is something a CDer will come across much unless, like Isha, they are really gender fluid and exhibit both presentations separately in the same environment.


Interesting fact though, the highest paid female CEO in the US is actually TG😃

It was a fact in 2014 :) - but in 2015 (Forbes - April this year (http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/05/04/americas-highest-paid-female-chief-executives-infographic/)) she's not in the top 10 (2014's results were heavily skewed by stock price growth) - there is an interesting article here (http://nymag.com/news/features/martine-rothblatt-transgender-ceo/) on her in nymag - I hadn't heard of her before today so well done Robin for finding that... I would have thought some of our TS members would have mentioned her before but perhaps I'm not looking in the right places. :)

I know CDers are often accused of wanting to retain male privilege but I really think that's misunderstanding why we do what we do (or at least, those who present publicly and exhibit more of a TG/ gender fluid behaviour) - although sometimes it remains a significant mystery to me, but I don't stop doing femme just to consciously retain male privilege: I do it because it's the more 'common' part of me...

Katey x

[Marcelle]

Hi Jennifer,

In response to your question(s), here is my best stab in the dark and based on my opinion only. WRT "male privilege"

I am sure there are several textbook definitions and countless treatises written on the subject. IMHO "male privilege" historically was the result of men running rough shod over society and making the rules to better their own situation in life. When it came to the sexes, again historically, men did what they wanted and women stayed at home, cooked, cleaned and raised the family. Now that is history so let's place it in a more up to date context. Today, (again IMO) "male privilege" exists as a legacy to the historical account above. It is very real and what it means is that in some occupations (not all) women can expect to make on average 77 cents on the dollar to their male counterparts, glass ceilings exist at the executive level, men typically (and not always) get immediate credibility based on their gender for some occupations whereas women must always fight to gain that same credibility and women are more likely to put their careers on hold to raise a family then men (although that too is changing). Yes, I am sure there are countless other examples but these tend to be the more salient points :)

What male privilege is not and this is what I take great exception with, is that men have everything handed to them on a silver platter and never have to work for anything. Some may cry foul but I will say that while this may have been the way long, long ago and read ruling elite males not your everyday run of the mill serf, many men today work extremely hard to achieve and when they don't they work harder. When I was born, the doctor didn't proclaim "It's a boy. Sit back son and coast from this point forward . . . anything you want is yours so just ask." Nope, I had to work for everything I achieved and it was far from easy folks.

To be honest, privilege exists in all strata of society. People of both genders who come from affluential families have a leg up on all aspects of life for which their counterparts in the less financially advantaged brackets don't have. When it comes to getting a job the literature will bear out that being youthful, vibrant, well dressed and gregarious is normally associated with high work ethic, professional, confident, honest and a go getter even if the person has limited skills and average work performance (this goes for both genders BTW). Conversely being overweight, not dressed in stylish clothes, being quiet, demure and so on is more likely to be associated with being lazy, slovenly and a poor work ethic irrespective of being highly skilled with a good track record (again for both genders but women tend to be discriminated against more so in this category).

Have I experienced this while presenting as a woman? My recent example of the meeting where I was marginalized may seem a likely example but then again that may have just been a group of Alpha males seeing me as less than male due to the fact I was dressed as a woman. Not really a privilege thing but an Alpha attempt to establish dominance which BTW I have seen women use quite effectively to make even the most mucho macho man shrink into the background. That is not privilege but personality. If it were a privilege, then any man could just speak up at table full of both genders and the women would shrink into the background . . . Umm, I have seen plenty of non-alpha males try and get shut down by both genders post haste.

In the end, the type of privilege you are alluding to is IMHO a legacy issue and one that will eventually (albeit at a snails pace) go the way of the Dodo as more women attain positions of power and the Neanderthal males who are still living la vita loco stuck in their "Leave to Beaver" existence shuffle off this mortal coil. Will it be a hard fight? You bet it will and both genders need to push these archaic concepts to the curve. Will it happen overnight? Not likely as it is heavily ingrained. However, IMHO, it will happen.

Cheers

Isha

[Abby Kae]

I think it's quite telling that even the OP used subconscious male privilege in defining the question.

Loud males were told to "pipe down", and a similar female had her "bad habits" corrected.

Male privilege is definitely a thing. Isha's meeting example isn't an isolated incident, though it's absolutely interesting to see one person on both sides of the coin.

My wife has 24 direct report employees working for her, she has the most experience in the company, the most experience in the field, the highest relevant education (Ph.D.) in her department, is very well liked and trusted, and is constantly told by extra-departmental leadership that she is the greatest asset the company has.

Her male subordinates and peers still constantly talk over her.

Gender equality is big in our house, even before our two daughters were born, and was the subject of her dissertation.

Male privilege is real, feminism isn't an attack on men, deniers are just plain wrong. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

[pamela7]

In my world privilege is more social-class than gender-related. But, there must be codes. Today I was out walking my mum's dog with my son, I was in a dress. We walk past a couple with their dog, she looks me eye to eye and smiles, he does not. That is the male-female code, and even with 2-3 day stubble, no wig nor make-up, i'm treated woman-to-woman, not man-to-"man-in-dress". I then walk past some workmen on a break, say "morning guys", get back "alright mate". That was male-male. Go figure.

[suchacutie]

I have seen the scenario Isha presented many times over. I've watched women colleagues raise their hands to be acknowledged in a supposedly formal meeting while maless just started talking, the male moderator not paying any attention to the problem.

The alleged generality that males just want to solve the problem and move on, vs. the female approach of prior discussion is a common foundation for the marginalization that Isha presented. Men in positions of authority who understand this issue make faster strides in management in a mixed-gender environment. The clash is most prevalent in initially male-dominated work environments that start to become mixed gender. Inevitably, those who understand gender differences win out, after a long struggle.

It can be a serious plus to be transgendered!

[cheryl reeves]

ive never experienced this so called male privalege,guess they forgot to give me the memo when i was born...when i worked before the dr retired me,i worked harder then my male counterparts and they got promoted while i was usually fired so they could have a opening for another alpha male..in my work history i never had a job that lasted no more then 2-3 yrs.,only had 2 that lasted 5 yrs..in my walk of life i always wondered what it would have been like if i was fully male,would i have gotten further in my career..

[Amy Fakley]

Here's the thing about "male privilege" ... while it is certainly a thing that exists as a trend or average across the entire population, it does not uniformly apply to everyone equally.

I've not benefitted greatly from male privilege. Though I'm certainly aware of its existence, it almost never applies to me personally. I'm run up against a ceiling the same as everyone else who wasn't incredibly lucky or born with a golden ticket to the executive class. The ceiling isn't glass ... nobody pretends it ain't there, y'know?

The fight for equality is everyone's fight, but to view it solely from the perspective of a male/female divergence is myopic. The problem is much larger than that. Certainly, we should focus on equality between genders, but if we fix just that ... while it's an improvement, at the end of the day, it's just making sure everyone gets an equally crap end of the stick. We need more than that to build a future worthy of the sacrifice we've all made to build it.

[Judith96a]

I have to confess that I really don't get this 'male privilege' concept. The idea seems to be that men supposedly have it easy while the world is "against" women. I'm simply not convinced.

This could be a 'context' thing. I have absolutely no experience of working in any environment where equal pay was anything other than the norm. While my immediate environment at work is almost totally male, within the organisation women occupy very senior positions. While we have yet to have a female CEO or COO, over the past ten years we have had female vice-chairs of the 'board' and, for several months, a female acting-chair. Within my family, both my grandmothers were very competent practitioners of their respective trades. Likewise my mother and the majority of my aunts in their chosen trades and professions. So whether at work or outside of work I've no real experience of women being treated as second class citizens except by a small number of arrogant ***** who, truth be told, treated everyone whom the perceived as not being their equal like dirt regardless of their gender.



I've seen females in many meetings and discussions get ignored because of one or two loud mouths at a table (who are normally men). To me, that's a leadership problem, because whomever runs the meeting needs to ensure that the group gets the best ideas, no matter where they come from.

Yep, I've seen both males and females fall victim to that one! And I agree with your analysis. Interestingly, when chairing meetings, I find it easier to deal with badly behaved males than badly behaved females! I have absolutely no problem telling a man to be quiet, "you've had your say, let someone else speak". With a woman I'm much less abrupt!



On the flip side, I had a very aggressive female on a job that just ran rough shod over everyone's opinions. She was bad for morale and didn't listen to anyone, male or female.

Been there too! Only I wasn't as successful as you. She left very abruptly after a toe-to-toe row with a senior manager (which I witnessed)! But, three years later, we're still trying to help her traumatised (all female) team to recover from her years of abusive behaviour.


The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Women constantly complain about this alleged "male" privilege, which seems to be exacerbated in their eyes if one happens to be Caucasian. As with beauty, this concept is often in the eyes of the beholder.

-snip-

What the feminists don't talk about is the female sense of entitlement that they have historically laid claim to and which includes expectations of deferential and chivalrous treatment on the part of their male counterparts ("Happy wife, happy life", "If Momma's happy, everyone is happy" etc.). This is something that they have yet to volunteer giving up in the name of the "equality" that they are so adamant in pursuing...

Leslie, you've been reading my mind again! On the subject of chivalry, I have occasionally encountered the "how dare you hold that door open for me" response but only very occasionally. I have however plenty of experience of (younger) females being prepared to walk through / over you (regardless of whether you're make or female). I sometimes wonder whether one of the biggest 'tells' for a CD is how you react when you meet someone head on in a confined space (eg. corridor, doorway, crowded footpath). I 'automatically' step to one side, especially if the other person is a woman. I cannot remember the last time that I witnessed a woman (other than a female cousin) doing so!

I suspect that ones perception of the nature and /or existence of 'male privilege' depends on your context!

[ReineD]

Her male subordinates and peers still constantly talk over her.

Yup, that's what happens to me too. To get my point across, I've had to use attention grabbers like "Gentlemen" (when I was the only woman there), or "This is how I think we should proceed", or addressing the person with the loudest voice by name and then taking advantage of the slightest lull in the conversation. I'm pretty sure this is what guys do too. The only difference is they've been socialized to do so at an earlier age than us, so we just have to catch up! :) (... and this is NOT being "less feminine")

Once I get started with what I have to say, the men have no problem listening and valuing my contribution.

I've had the same problem in my own family when sitting around the table with my three sons. And I know they do not think my contributions to the conversation are less valuable than theirs. It's just a question of defining my space and carving it out, just like men. :)

As to male vs female privilege in general, women have traditionally deferred to men in some areas and men have traditionally deferred to women in other areas - we each have our stereotypical areas of "expertise" - although the gender gap is narrowing there too. The only areas where the gap will not narrow so much is anything to do with physical size and strength.

To Isha ... you have a thread about this and I just want to say that you already know how to carve your space, so you shouldn't experience any issues with having your voice heard? Having a stronger physical voice does help, but it is not essential.

[franlee]

The concept of Male Privileged is a nice catch phrase and attention getter. I have seen what is a natural state between the sexes come closer to equal over the years. It isn't male or female privilege but a simple matter of respect. I can attest to some are granted titles and positions that are not deserved or earned but more of an affirmative action while others are over looked and bypassed simply because of their lack of understanding and ability to standup. It is a shame that we still have to use excuses for our own short coming in a lot of cases. But the most important objective and true leveling factor should be to Bring the Person(female or male) up Not deprive others that in the desired position and there by cause resentment. I have always felt that if someone else can do the job as well as Me and have something that puts them in a position to better the need, Good. But have them put there to meet a quota or some social or government imposed reason is not only wrong but discrimination, even though it is reversed. Speaking from personal and professional experience there is a difference in men and women and that is not bad it is just a fact and nothing is ever going to change that, so instead of trying to exploit the differences or correct them the best thing is to learn how to use the best of them to benefit ones self, in the home and the world.

[stefan37]

If you were born male. You have experienced male privilege whether you are aware of it or not. You were given opportunities that would not have been available to a woman. Isha mentioned marginalization. It is so much more than personality. It was mentioned getting recognized in a meeting. I have personally experienced that. Woman are more likely to be paid less for the same work. If you don't believe it exists. Live for a period of time as a woman. You will experience it first hand.

[JamieG]

My understanding is the "privilege" refers to an inherent advantage; it does not mean that everything came easy for you, just that it was easier for you than some other group of people, and because you never had to walk in those people's shoes, you don't even realize that you had an advantage.

So yes, I believe there is such a thing as male privilege. One study has particularly stood out for me. They had academics rate the CVs (academic resumes) of various fictitious job candidates. When they changed the name on the CV from male to female the candidate was consistently ranked lower. Interestingly, this was seen even when the evaluators themselves were women! So simply by having a male name, you receive an employment advantage.

[Judith96a]

I've had to use attention grabbers like "Gentlemen" (when I was the only woman there), or "This is how I think we should proceed", or addressing the person with the loudest voice by name and then taking advantage of the slightest lull in the conversation. I'm pretty sure this is what guys do too. The only difference is they've been socialized to do so at an earlier age than us, so we just have to catch up! :) (... and this is NOT being "less feminine")
...
I've had the same problem in my own family when sitting around the table with my three sons. And I know they do not think my contributions to the conversation are less valuable than theirs. It's just a question of defining my space and carving it out, just like men. :)


Once my wife, mother in law and my wife's aunts get started talking its nigh on impossible to get a word in without resorting to similar tactics!

[AllieSF]

My understanding is the "privilege" refers to an inherent advantage; it does not mean that everything came easy for you, just that it was easier for you than some other group of people, and because you never had to walk in those people's shoes, you don't even realize that you had an advantage.

So yes, I believe there is such a thing as male privilege. One study has particularly stood out for me. They had academics rate the CVs (academic resumes) of various fictitious job candidates. When they changed the name on the CV from male to female the candidate was consistently ranked lower. Interestingly, this was seen even when the evaluators themselves were women! So simply by having a male name, you receive an employment advantage.

Jamie, I tend to agree with your comments. I also believe that whatever "inherent" privilege that one may have, it only applies in certain situations or aspects of life. The reason that the male privilege seems to continually come up is because of the inequality in pay, being taken seriously in meetings, as already discussed here, and unequal promotions that women continue to suffer.

Regarding the academic ratings of resumes, I just read an interesting article in the April 18, 2015 issue of The Economist where the resume rating was skewed in favor of the female labeled resumes when applied to academic applications to tenure-track positions where once tenure is received they employment is considered to lead to a job for life.

[Alice Torn]

As far as singles go, single women are outearning single me. On the other handm, single moms have always had a harder time, than single men, or unmarried women. In 1989, I had been working as a temp, along with several other temp workers, and a permanent opening came up. We all took the test for the job. I ogt a much higher score, but the female that was on the crew, was hired, on affirmative action. It was a physically demanding highways maintenance job, and she was actually fired years later, because she was in such poor physical and emotional shape. And, that state very seldom fires anyone. Most of my bosses have been younger women.Universities are over 60% females now, and more women start businesses than men. Pay is the same for both, everywhere i have worked. There are still a lot of big ego males out there making it tough for women, and true gentlemen, and also some mean women on power trips. Nice guys are finishing last, in this cruel world.

[Badtranny]

Arguing the existence of male privilege is like arguing the existence of white privilege.

Pointless

This is a systemic societal issue. It has nothing to do with anything any one person experiences. The world and this issue is much bigger than your tiny little life of "never getting any privileges".

[flatlander_48]

- What is it? Can you define it?

It is a societal construct where certain assumptions are made about people based on gender. If you have the appropriate gender, it is assumed that you are "more than". If not, it is assumed that you are "less than".

- Does it exist everywhere? Is it a work thing, social thing, or something else entirely?

It is a function of human interaction; where ever that occurs.

- Is there a female privilege (say, in the nursing field)?

There are situations where women are granted deference with respect to men, but there is no comparison to the breadth and strength of deference granted to men.

- How have you experienced it while crossdressing?

No, not so far.

- Is it a problem that is solveable? Is it entirely on men to solve, or is it more a sexual difference problem that requires work on both sides? Or, do we even need to solve it?

As I've said before, what appears as male privilege when being considered from a male perspective is what females experience as sexism. It is the same coin, but it looks different according to your perspective. The thing is, there are situations where males believe that they have an advantage and will work that. This is how the meeting dynamics that have been mentioned here come into play. However, where inequality in pay and promotional opportunities exist, males usually didn't directly ask for privilege. They were granted privilege behind closed doors because unless someone specifically told you, you do not know the exact discussions that took place and the prevailing opinions. To me, anyone who says that they never got anything based on male privilege doesn't understand the construct. So, work situations have been mentioned, but what about the differences when men and women seek technical services, such as auto repair? Historically men got very different treatment compared to women. Men tended to get detailed technical explanations, but women usually got the non-technical "don't worry your pretty little head" version. That's interesting because there are MANY men who don't know the difference between pliers and a box end wrench. Now, there are similarities in the treatment of women and the treatment of racial minorities. Some years ago I had a problem with my car fixed at the dealership where I bought it. It has been long enough that I don't remember what the problem was. Before I went, I had logically narrowed it down to a couple of things as I usually do. When I went to pick it up, the service writer went into a bizarre explanation about what the problem was. The more I probed, the more bizarre it got. Finally, I said something like: "Son, 30 years (then, 43 now) as a mechanical engineer tells me that there is no way what you describe can happen. Would you like me to explain the physics to you?". There was a long awkward silence. SS-DD with respect to what women may experience. However, I suspect that this has begun to change due to the number of women entering the automotive field as technicians, service writers, sales people and as dealership and shop owners. I think what you have to do is set the expectations higher and not tolerate inequality, or said another way, define acceptable behavior.


Also as I've mentioned before, genetic women have a lot of time and resources to draw upon (female family members, female friends, school counselors, etc.) to develop strategies against sexism, how to fight back and how to cope with it. Unfortunately trans women don't have the luxury of time and may not have the supporting resources to draw upon. That would seem to make for a very steep learning curve.

DeeAnn

[NicoleScott]

There is male privilege. There is female privilege. It's a wash.

[Pat]

I'm interested that many seek to find male privilege in the big things. To me it's most apparent in the small things:

Cleaning tasks are rarely shared equitably between men and women. (Though men usually love to list each thing they've done as if it was a sacrament.)

Childcare is rarely shared equitably. One of my favorite memories is a friend who scooped up his son to introduce me to him and after a few brave words about "his" boy, he passed the kid to his wife -- "I think he needs to be changed, honey."

when it's time to pick the movie, women might suggest a movie that gets dismissed as "a chick flick" and the men pick the Bruce Willis movie because "everyone" like to see S@%t get blown up!

Men watch The Game, women bring the snacks. If women choose to stay in the kitchen and talk rather than watch The Game it must be because that's how they have fun.

I've never seen a woman grab the last donut at a meeting. (Though admittedly, I've seen one rip the last donut in half and leave half. I hate it when they leave the wounded behind.)

Male privilege often shows up in activities involving food as well. Men take the biggest, drink the biggest, deploy their elbows like outriggers at the table to take up the most space.

Women frequently want to do interactive things and communicate (e.g. play board games.) Men frequently want to do what are called "parallel activities" like watch TV. It's a point of male privilege that their choice is often the one that prevails.

At least that's how it seems to me.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Jennifer, That must be something new.:daydreaming:

[sometimes_miss]

If you were born male. You have experienced male privilege whether you are aware of it or not. You were given opportunities that would not have been available to a woman.
OK. Someone is born female. She has the option of having children or not, and having someone else pay for it or not (pretty easy to arrange, if she's smart at all, really). Males do not have this option. Not to mention, that up until THIS war, we got drafted and women did not, another non-negotiable 'privilege' we had that women didn't.

We can go on about this all day long. Each sex has it's inherent advantages and disadvantages.

In my experience, it's more of a money privilege than anything else. I've discussed this over and over about being male (and I'm white) being somehow favored but I haven't experienced it in person. I think it's more women and racial minorities seeing selected things happen with white men and they automatically assume every guy gets the same treatment, sort of like as men we see beautiful women getting free drinks, dinners, multiple offers of dates every night of the week, and sex whenever they want and sort of think that all women get that. Men with money have options that neither women or men without money get.
In contrast, there is no affirmative action for white men, anywhere. There are no quotas in the NBA, NFL, or nursing, or cosmetology programs, or teaching or working placement in any field where males are in very low numbers. Because 'some' males are favored, somewhere, all the rest of us have to put up with the backlash and not expect to complain.
That said, it all comes down to the same old 'the grass is greener on the other side of the fence' viewpoint. There are advantages and disadvantages to each and every group. And it's up to the individual to understand that, and choose the path we want, and not b!tch and moan about how somebody else has what we want. Nobody gets everything they want. That's just how life works.
As an example: 28 years ago, I switched careers. I was told by my immediate superior that my chances of promotion were nil. Because upper management was lilly white and male, so they wouldn't be advancing me no matter how good I was; my best bet was to look into another industry, because pretty much every company in that business was in the same predicament. I had worked hard for that job, and felt that even with little chance, surely it couldn't be true. Over the next few years I watched as they did indeed, promote female and minority coworkers instead of me despite my better performance, all in the name of so called equality as defined by the EEOC. So much for 'white privilege'. Knowing what I learned, I next went into a field where there were virtually no male workers, and base salary would be more than adequate with pay raises coming with experience, and promotions not necessary.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Personally, I have had to struggle, fight and claw for every little thing I have ever had in my life. I was never given any special privileges of any kind, whether because of what is between my legs, or any other reason.

[Amy Fakley]

I think it's interesting that the teaching and nursing professions are mentioned. Offhand I can't think of any other professions that both require (at least) a 4 year degree, but for which the pay (and respect) are on par with managing a burger king.

Thats male privilege in a nutshell. If those were male dominated professions, that wouldn't stand. Of course there are men in those professions, and they're not benefitting from male privilege (on the whole)? That's how it works. It's not about an individual experience, it's about the larger picture.

[Ezekiel]

Well some of you sure are not getting it, its obvious you have never experienced being like some sort of second class citizen. What you call male privilege is called machism everywhere else that is not the US (which by the way some of you should also look outside the US, the world is not only the US, even if most of you here are from there).

Machism and male privilege go hand in hand but can be understood differently, and while the terms are related, they are not exactly the same thing as they dont usually transmit the same meaning to most people, it seems, and some of your responses are a good example of this.

You understand male privilege as if it was somekind of easier life circumstance where you get anything just because of your condition of male. Well, no, this is not the case, obviousbly its not what we are talking about here.

Machism, which is a word that defines the issue much better, means basically that society is made for men to rule over women, and the more typical "macho" you are understood to be, the better it will go for you.

Essentially, we are talking about patriarchy here, where men are supossed to be in charge of everything, be taken seriously and respected, and women are supossed to be on a second scene, being treated as less because of their condition of being female, and suppossed to be submissive to men.

So no, it does not mean you don't have to work hard or put effort, it means that you, just because you are male, will always be granted a position above a female. That is machism, patriarchy, male privilege...

[Krisi]

Male privilege?

Are you talking about the male privilege where as a child you are expected to excel at sports while females sit and look pretty?
Are you talking about the male privilege where you are expected to ask the female out on a date and pay for everything?
Are you talking about the male privilege where (in my time) you could be drafted and sent to war and return in a box or with body parts missing?

Perhaps you talking about the male privilege where you are expected to be the breadwinner of the family?
Or are you talking about the male privilege where you are forced to pay alimony and child support and have them taken directly out of your paycheck before you even see it but still pay taxes on it?
Are you talking about the male privilege where your ex wife and children remain in the home you are still paying for while you live in a one room efficiency apartment down by the railroad tracks?

Or could it be the male privilege where your lifespan is ten years less than a female?

All in all, the grass is the same degree of green on both sides of the fence. In some ways, the males may have it better, in other ways, the females have it better. In reality, all of us here are "privileged". World wide, the majority of folks are scrounging for food and shelter every day and don't have the time or resources to join and post on Internet forums.

[Greenie]

I accidentally deleted my post on the phone app: for some reason the phone version of this is not working:

I think some people are confused about what privilege is. There definitely is male privilege. But there are other types as well and some people here are confusing them.

First the definition:
"a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most"

In our society there is systematic oppression, structurally in how our government is run that often still marginalizes other groups. In other countries it can be better or worse.

There are different types of oppression, and privilege. I think its important for us as people on the Trans spectrum and those who are their allies, are really honest about privilege in all forms and what that means. I went to a conference and we talked about the violence against trans people. There is a reason why they most amount of people killed per year for hate crimes are, TRANS, WOMEN, of COLOR. Its the intersection of these oppression that suffer the most at the systematic oppression.

Examples:

Type of Oppression> Who feels it> who is "privileged" to not have that oppression

Sexism> Oppressed are historically women> so privileged are men.
Racism> People of Color > Whites
Heterosexism> Lesbians, gays, bi> Hetrosexuals
Gender> Cis gender> trans
Nationalism> immigrant's> Natural citizens
Religious hegemony > christian > non christian
Socioeconomic> poor> rich
Added*
Elitism>uneducated>educated
Able ism>disabled >non disabled
Etc

These things are important because its pointless to argue that male privilege doesn't exist, just because you are oppressed in another category. it doesn't really work that way. Luca and I talked about how him being born male, and how he was raised gave him many advantages as a male, that manifest as disadvantages when he portrays female.

For example, women are taught from a young age, not to tease men with your outfits, how to dress to get a man, the traits that a husband wants. How not to be raped. How to not walk alone.

Lucas was never taught these things. Many men were not. Why? Because they just haven't had to been taught that to the extent women have. The same is true for race, how people of color are conditioned to behave from a young age "don't touch anything they will think you stole it" is different than people who are white.

This is something that is bigger than all of us. It's bigger than, well my life wasn't that way so it's not true.

I really believe that we will never get anywhere in society until each and everyone of us, takes an honest look at our privilege and our oppression. Lacking in one area does not negate another. Owning this and moving forward is the way to progress. But as long as we have people who say that it doesn't exist, because of their life circumstances, who lack the ability to see the bigger picture, progress will stall.

I do see where many of you feel you have not seen or had male privilege. Growing up the way many of you have, with a variance in your gender. I think its easy play a victim and say that because of the way you are, you have no male privilege, and say that I have had nothing.

I could also do that, saying I grew up a poor girl. So privilege doesn't exist for me. But my world as a poor white, cis gendered girl, was a hell of a lot different than a poor black trans girl. But we are both women, and both poor?! Right? Our experiences must have been similar? Likening my life experience to hers, would be wrong! I didn't have any privilege she didn't? Right? We were both poor and women. So obviously racism doesn't exist. Sounds silly doesn't it? Yet, That's the types of comments I have been seeing here. And I hope that you read that and see how very some of you are. Its not about "Who has it better" its about who has an unfair advantage and who is disadvantaged due to the way they are BORN. And that is always wrong.

And yes, we have made strides, women can vote, women can work. But systematically, there are many things that haven't changed. Here is a list from a website of 30 ways male privilege still exists (http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012/11/30-examples-of-male-privilege/): They also have a list on Heterosexual privilege, and did one a while ago on christian privilege, and cis gendered privilege. If many of us here can agree that there is Cis Gender or Hetero Privilege, I don't see why we are debating Male Privilege.

[Abby Kae]

In my short time here on these forums, I've seen a couple posts about tips for feeling safe when dressing in public at night.

If you've ever gone out at night, in drab, and never felt the need to worry about your safety, you've experienced first hand what male privilege is.

If you've ever gone out at night, en femme, and made sure to travel with friends, in supportive neighborhoods, staying near street lights, you've experienced first hand the sudden lack of that male privilege.

You can talk about affirmative action causing you to be overlooked for promotions, or how you're a nice guy who always finishes last, or how you got drafted into a war you didn't want to fight, and none of those feelings are invalid. But none of those things make up for the fact that you can go out at night, in drab, without fear of violence for what gender you are.

[Ezekiel]

Krisi, all you are talking about is MACHISM, not privilege, thats why I am pointing out the two must be differentiated, even if they are related in some instances. Its a kind of machism that backfires many times on males. Its sexism if you want to call it that way, that puts pressure on people to meet certain stupid criteria.

Thats why I'm stressing that if you want this to change, you should support feminism, and feminism does not mean to step over males, it means equality in every sense. Even if the word "feminism" sounds like stepping over males, it is not used to describe that, it is used to describe a movement of equality.

[Krisi]

You can call it what you want, that doesn't change anything.

[Ezekiel]

You can call it what you want, that doesn't change anything.

You don't get it, do you?

You keep thinking the privilege we are talking about here means males are entitled to do everything, and females not. No... this is not what we are talking about here.

Women experience machism everyday in their lifes, to how they are supossed to look, to what they are being paid, to how they are supossed to behave... and a long very long etcetera.

Men experience machism everyday too, but since they are men, they are taken seriously, respected and being given higher standards on everything just because they are males.

But of course as long as they meet what society demands a man to be. And here is where they experience machism / sexism aswell.

You get the point now? You see why the term male privilege and machism / sexism are related but are not the same? You see why the term "privilege" is misleading here in some points?

[Krisi]

Or is it you who doesn't get it?

Just because you believe something doesn't make your opinion right and other opinions wrong (except in your own mind). As adults, we have to understand that not everyone agrees with us and that's OK.

[Ezekiel]

Or is it you who doesn't get it?

Just because you believe something doesn't make your opinion right and other opinions wrong (except in your own mind). As adults, we have to understand that not everyone agrees with us and that's OK.

I explained something. You didn't get it, in my opinion, so I explained again. So yes, we are both exercising what you just said. Am I wrong?

[Abby Kae]

The existence of male privilege isn't an opinion. It's a fact.

Krisi, you're allowed to not believe in it, just like you're allowed to believe the sun revolves around the earth. Your belief doesn't change anything.

[Krisi]

Try reading my first post again with the thought of understanding it, not rebutting it.

[Badtranny]

I think it's interesting that the teaching and nursing professions are mentioned. Offhand I can't think of any other professions that both require (at least) a 4 year degree, but for which the pay (and respect) are on par with managing a burger king.

Thats male privilege in a nutshell. .


Indeed. Excellent point, but there is a certain segment of the population that is unable to think beyond their own limited experience.

You can't argue with those people.

[ReineD]

Try reading my first post again with the thought of understanding it, not rebutting it.

Krisi, I've read your post #30.

1. Not all boys play sports. Also, a lot of girls play sports. 50% of all students (male and female) do not play sports in high school.
2. It's true that men have traditionally been the ones to ask women out. When I was a young, we were taught that men were turned off by women who chased them. But all of this is changing. Also, in today's relationships women do contribute financially to the costs of outings.
3. Yes, men have gone to war. But women are now fighting to be allowed to join the military in the same capacity as men. Also, throughout history the women in besieged countries have been raped by invading armies. There are no winners in war.
4. In today's economy, most families are dual-income. Men are no longer the sole bread winners.
5. In today's divorce laws, women also pay alimony if they earn more than their ex-husbands and if their husbands are awarded custody. And men are increasingly being awarded custody.
6. See above.
7. Lifespan: I'll give you that one.


To be fair, women have privilege too. Here's a list. I can debate about half the items on the list that seem a stretch (for example makeup and appearance 8, 9, spending 15, household contributions 20, 21, work expectations 26, 27, career options 29, crime 30, all divorce laws 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, and rape 43, 44, 45, 46, 47) but some of the items on the list have merit.

List of Female Privilege (http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/2011/05/female-privilege-checklist.html) (be selective with the reading)


All in all, I think Greenie has the most objective post in this thread.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I agree ReineD, during wars when men were drafted there were many women who would have volunteered for military service but because of male priveledge/sexism etc they were not allowed that choice or oppertunity to serve thier country. And sure boys may often be expected to excell in sports but girls often had a hard time even being allowed to play sports at all, let alone with the boys. Still to this day no matter how great a basketball player a woman is she still is not allowed to play in the NBA as an equal to men, she must play in a less popular womans league which gives nowhere near the advantages of being an NBA superstar, same goes for most other leagues. Also, men usually providing financially on dates comes from a time when most women were confined to working in the house and had an extremely hard time trying to gain outside work, career etc and so they didn't often have thier own personal finances for dates or anything else for that matter. We may be making much progress in the western world but ask saudi women if they're limited by male priveledge

[sometimes_miss]

OK, I'll add a few more ideas for those of you who conveniently forget.

Well some of you sure are not getting it, its obvious you have never experienced being like some sort of second class citizen.
I think most of us all grew up in a situation where as children, we were treated as second class citizens, unless of course you were one of the spoiled brats that threw tantrums and your parents gave you whatever you wanted to calm down; that's pretty much a new phenomenon. Used to be, shut up or get hit. How's that for being second class? Be quiet, do as you're told, no pay, you get only what they give you. Get up when you're told to, eat what's given or nothing at all, go to bed when told to, and don't make a sound; and DON'T, god forbid, wake up daddy because he'll beat you because he has to get up to work in the morning. Got to school every day to do stuff you hate all day long, and do whatever the teacher tells you and smile at her and be nice all the time or you'll be considered 'fresh' and the teacher will tell your parents and you get punished (If you didn't get hit, well that was a plus for you. We got strapped as punishment, which means, we learned early on to do whatever grown ups told us or we'd be very, very sorry). If you can't remember what it's like to be told what you can and cannot do with finality, well, I can't help you there. But anyone with a good memory will remember EXACTLY what it's like to have someone wielding power and control over every second of their life. Did I forget you weren't even allowed to LOOK at an adult sideways? Or dare mumble something that they even might consider a derogitory comment? You'd get a swat and literally have your mouth washed out with soap; normally, ivory soap. If you cursed, it was Lava or brown soap, and you weren't allowed to spit it out for what seemed like hours even though it was only seconds.
People like to look back on childhood as a much simpler fun time of life. Nope. We just blank out the bad stuff. If you were lucky enough to be in the older group of children, you wielded power of your own over the younger kids. If you were one of the younger kids, you were, for all intents and purposes, screwed.

it means that you, just because you are male, will always be granted a position above a female.
I work with all women, who have seniority over me, and as the managers are also women, believe me, being male is of no advantage. So no, I haven't experienced that at all. You live in a bubble. might be way bigger than mine, but it's still a bubble, for what you see is not the universal experience. And just because MINE is different than most, does not mean that there aren't a lot of other situations where women don't have an advantage, either.

I agree ReineD, during wars when men were drafted there were many women who would have volunteered for military service but because of male priveledge/sexism etc they were not allowed that choice
Lots of men volunteered as well; they were brainwashed into thinking the experience was going to be something it wasn't. Let's go kill the nazis, or commies. Things changed when they started shooting back. Nam brought with it horrific booby traps as well. War has been different for the past 50 years, there hasn't been a whole lot of being deployed into situations with a oh, 90% expected casualty rate. Where whole platoons got wiped out. Where every block in america had a house with a war widow's black ribbons hanging in the windows in it. War looks good until you're in it. Basic training tries to make you forget your basic instincts, so you'll willingly become cannon fodder should the need arise to sacrifice (to death) the first group of soldiers going in. And it works, to a degree. Today's army experience is different; I'm not saying it's easy, or simple. But comparatively they're well supplied by any comparison.
Women would like to volunteer? Sure. As above, it isn't what it seems to be when you're not on the front lines. NOBODY born in America who is still alive, has had to defend their own territory from immediate invasion. Nobody. So they don't know what it's like. Talk to survivors of Korea and ask, there are still some Korean immigrants who served during that war who can tell you what it was like. Simply, women historically have never been on the front lines in any number. Why? Because it didn't make sense; women were needed to have babies and hence, more soldiers. Which would you choose to be: The one having the babies 4000 miles away in safety, or the first ones going into the beach on Normandy?
While today's soldiers experience is way different, just look at what happens when they get killed; the public is up in arms about sending them into harms way, protesting that we shouldn't be sending them in to unsafe areas. But that's exactly where they're supposed to be, they just won't tell you that when you sign up. They currently hide the deaths away from the news so no one knows what's going on. Used to be we saw the body boxes getting unloaded on TV every night. No more. Don't want to scare away any recruits, now, do we. And it's working.

Also, in today's relationships women do contribute financially to the costs of outings.
Not initially. If a guy expects to get a second date, he'd sure better be paying for that night the first time around, that's pretty much a given. Come on now, Reine.

In today's economy, most families are dual-income. Men are no longer the sole bread winners.
No, but we're still expected to be the PRIMARY bread winners. A man who stays at home while his wife works is pretty much reviled by everyone. And if he doesn't get a job of some kind, no one's surprised if she leaves him. NEVER works the other way around, NEVER, a woman can sponge off of a man for life and not a word is said, and it's still going on. The other women might say, 'well she certainly must be worth it' or some other baloney like that which of course implies the world's oldest profession (which is real, by the way, women still trade sex and the concept of getting sex to get a man to make a financial, i.e., marriage, commitment to her). Even when a woman stops having sex with him by choice, the guy is expected to financially support her for life. Never the other way around.

In today's divorce laws, women also pay alimony if they earn more than their ex-husbands and if their husbands are awarded custody. And men are increasingly being awarded custody.
Last I heard, that happens less than 10% of the time. How many men do you know that have sole custody? Any? How many women are currently in jail for not paying child support? How many have you ever even heard of? But it happens to men every day, all the time, especially since the last economic downturn. Men are expected to maintain an certain income, forever, and often has to fork it over until that kid gets out of college and has a job. If he can't, he goes to jail. Lost your good paying job due to the recession? Too bad. Go to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Lifespan: I'll give you that one.
Well, for a bit of levity, why do married men die before married women? Because they want to.

[Jazzy Jaz]

It sounds like everyone generally experienced that equally which means that girls and minorities endured that right along with everyone else, plus had the above and beyond experience of discrimination/sexism etc that others didn't have to endure. I think thats the point. Most people go through hardships and have to work very hard to get where they are but there are certain categories of people who generally have many more obstacles that stand in thier way. Yes there are definately some that make it through and get to the top- women managers/CEOs, black president etc, but that doesn't discount the fact that statistics prove that certain groups of people inherently have the odds stacked against them.

[Greenie]

Male privilege?

Are you talking about the male privilege where as a child you are expected to excel at sports while females sit and look pretty?
Are you talking about the male privilege where you are expected to ask the female out on a date and pay for everything?
Are you talking about the male privilege where (in my time) you could be drafted and sent to war and return in a box or with body parts missing?


You can take the opposite and ask questions about women... The point I think is to look at the bigger picture. Everyone can make an argument against something in culture.

I feel like what you are saying is: We have a black president so racism is over. Is the same to me as Men pay for dates so there is no male privilege.

Some brief examples I can think of to the contrary, that have been notable recently:

Women gamers are threatened that they will be raped and killed daily. Are male gamers?
Women youtubers have people comment on their music videos that they should do kill them selves. That they should be raped and murdered. Are Male youtubers treated the same?
Women have sex with multiple partners they are ****s and *****s, men do the same and they are given fist bumps and high fives.
Men don't get harassed at work or told that they are distracting in the work place to the opposite sex. (Personal example. I was wearing slacks and a turtleneck and high heels.)
Men don't get called things like "Hun, Babe, Sweet cakes, Little lady, Little girl, Etc At work" (Also a personal Experience)

For all your examples of how male privilege doesn't exist, I can come up with hundreds for how it does. I think its time we knowledge that it does. And that female privilege also happens in instances related to child care, child custody battles, etc and that the world is never gong to be perfectly in the middle all the time. For every time you can think of example that women have the upper hand, the same can be done for men.

I do agree that we are socioeconomically privileged to be sitting here on our smart phones and computers arguing about whether or not "privilege exists" and if its more skewed towards males and females.

Each of us brings our own life experience to the table. So that makes it so that our opinions are naturally going to be different. Its meeting in the middle and discussing them in an educated and thought out manner that is what is needed for our society to move forwards.

We all have our own biases. And I think its time we own that. As a female, my major oppression has been sexism. I have viewed it in a different way then you have, naturally. My lens is coated by the sexual harassment I receive daily while walking on the streets of Seattle. The fear that I have when needing to walk from the building to my car when its dark outside. The constant reminder in my head in the voice of my mother to "not get raped." Because being raped is still teh womans fault, instead of the fault of the rapist. When the first question people ask is, what was she wearing? If a man is raped, that question will never be asked.

This is my world and these are my truths. Meanwhile your lens is how you have experienced the world as a Male? (I don't recall if you are CD or TG). And your examples must be rooted in experience. Dating, the war, sports. Etc. (Side note, women actually don't think its a privilege to be able to just "sit there and look pretty", we also want to be accepted for our skills and ability, to excel and be taken seriously, looks and beauty of often something women don't feel "privileged by) I am wondering if there is also an age gap between you and myself. That ideal of women is very much not true anymore for my generation.

Can you acknowledge that my life experience, and those of many women, can lead to a world where many women see males as privilege? Because I can acknowledge that your life experience makes it so that you do not feel like male privilege exists.

Bigger picture, when a collective body (women) feel that they are a marginalized minority, would it not make sense to look at the collective of those women s experiences and say, "You know what, this many people feel this way, whether I agree with the terminology or not, there has got to be something happening here?" If a bunch of people say X, Maybe X might be a possibility to consider"

[ReineD]

Honestly, I wonder if it is mostly males who fantasize about being women, that think they don't have male privilege?

I bet if we asked men who've never had a thought about wearing women's things, looking like a woman, or adopting the weaker of womens' roles, they'd acknowledge the existence of male privilege?

[flatlander_48]

I propose a small experiment...

Guys, put these questions to adult women that you know:


Does sexism exist? (Use SEXISM specifically and NOT Privilege)
If #1 was yes, have you experienced this personally, witnessed a sexist act or both?
If #1 was yes, how do you deal with it?
If #2 was yes, describe the situation.


Please post your findings here when you have them.

Thanks,

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Here's a bit of news to show that things are indeed becoming more equal! :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/netflix-unlimited-maternity-paternity-leave_55c12b26e4b0138b0bf44b98

[Marcelle]

Honestly, I wonder if it is mostly males who fantasize about being women, that think they don't have male privilege?

I bet if we asked men who've never had a thought about wearing women's things, looking like a woman, or adopting the weaker of womens' roles, they'd acknowledge the existence of male privilege?

Hi Reine,

I would bet you are wrong. A predominant portion of men (macho/mucho Alpha types) I know would never admit to "male privilege". Oh I am sure they know it exists on some level but in their mind it does not. However, I have also met men who admit it does exist and take steps to help it disappear. But then again I am sure there are many here who also understand what male privilege is just as there are those who will never admit to it . . . we are after all still a representative portion of society with all our biases and judgments.

I think what happens is that some cannot see the big picture and make it more personal . . . "I never got everything handed to me because I am a male and had to work darn hard" . . . on that I can agree. Yes, being born male has provided me with certain advantages which was not afforded to my female counterparts in the military . . . especially the combat arms profession . . . instant tactical credibility because I am a man comes to mind. Does that negate my own hard work in my career? No, however I would be narrow minded to not admit "male privilege" exists. It is not about me or what I have achieved, it is endemic to society and truth be told it needs to be stomped out by both genders.

As a man, just sit back and observe a meeting or interaction in the work place. Yes, there are women who have risen to become "Alpha" and carry that well, just there are plenty of men who shrink to the back of the meeting room. However, statistically, it is still very much an Alpha male world (depending the on occupation). Again, don't misquote me . . . it is not about you. We all can get some rather crappy cards dealt to us in life which may make us think we personally have not benefited from privilege but if you think long an hard . . . it has happened. Does that mean you didn't work hard or suffered your share of indignities, strife or just all around crap? No, but again it is not about you, it is about society in general.

Cheers

Isha

[ReineD]

Hi Reine,

I would bet you are wrong. A predominant portion of men (macho/mucho Alpha types) I know would never admit to "male privilege". Oh I am sure they know it exists on some level but in their mind it does not. However, I have also met men who admit it does exist and take steps to help it disappear. But then again I am sure there are many here who also understand what male privilege is just as there are those who will never admit to it . . . we are after all still a representative portion of society with all our biases and judgments.

This makes sense.


On another tack, and somewhat related, on facebook tonight I was directed to a research site at Harvard that tests for prejudice or bias. There are a few tests that relate to gender. I thought you might be interested in this Isha (and anyone else). They're among the best online tests I've seen. They only take 10 minutes each, the method is objective, and they are careful to explain why the results might be skewed at the end of it. These are not the "fun" tests on popular media with predictable answers that tell people their gender. lol. And you can compare your results to a sizable cohort at the end.

Have a go! The two gender tests relate to whether we associate the Liberal Arts or the Sciences predominately with men or women, and family or career lives with men or women. There are also tests on whether we have a bias for or against a particular religion, various races, sexual orientation, age, weight.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/selectatest.html

[Ezekiel]

I think most of us all grew up in a situation where as children, we were treated as second class citizens, unless of course you were one of the spoiled brats that threw tantrums and your parents gave you whatever you wanted to calm down; that's pretty much a new phenomenon.

You are mixing apples with oranges. But now that you talk about it, imagine the same but being female. Probably worse, more restricted expectations.


I work with all women, who have seniority over me, and as the managers are also women, believe me, being male is of no advantage. So no, I haven't experienced that at all. You live in a bubble. might be way bigger than mine, but it's still a bubble, for what you see is not the universal experience. And just because MINE is different than most, does not mean that there aren't a lot of other situations where women don't have an advantage, either.

First, I don't live in a bubble. No I do not. I am in a situation where I'm constantly seeking for a job, far from my family, living on the verge of poverty being paid less than 950 euros.

I'm not a White middle class US citizen. Sure Caucasian (a word not synonym for White), but Spanish afterall, and I don't qualify for White and I can tell you I notice it everyday in Germany that I am not White, like for example when they always keep asking me to show my bag after paying whenever I go buy food, and I see that it is ONLY me who is always asked this. I guess its enough explanation...

But theres people in worse situation than me, atleast I can pay for my internet.

Second...

Women have always had it harder, they always have been restricted and treated as less than equal, even today, thats why its still an issue. Even if its not in your personal experience, trust me they do have it harder. Its on a planetary scale, worse on some places than others, but still an issue everywhere on Earth.

Its not like I'm saying you, or anyone else here, hadn't had it hard. Its not what I'm saying, its not what anyone else is saying. We are talking about sexism, where women are less respected than men on a comparative scale.

Im not even saying that women don't have the advantage on some very specific things, which is also obvious and they have it that way because they fought hard for it in the past, like when they fought hard for being permited to wear trousers.
But those very scarce things where they actually have an advantage are not really all that noticeable in the everyday life, and of course it does not balance out like some say here using the phrase "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". Its not true in this case.

Patriarchy is still the established order, there is still sexism. Why you deny it?

Its easy for me to see this and I'm male, yes I'm TG, but male, why is it you don't acknowledge that there is still terrible sexism that damages both, males and females, in their everyday life?

Forgot to add... many complain here about the issue that women are permitted wearing trousers, whereas men are not permitted to wear dresses.

Let me ask you this question...

Why do you think women can wear "all" they want (which is not entirely the case, but for simplicity), and men are restricted to some things and are looked down upon if they wear clothes such as skirts, dresses, make up (on most cases) and a long list?

Tell me why? I'll tell you why men can't wear dresses without it being accepted. Men can't do this because of men. Yes... It is men who are not letting men this freedom. Its machism, its sexism, because they think it makes you less of a man, which in their minds is many times less of a person, and less respectable because it is associated that anything that they relate to being "feminine" is inferior.

In the end, thats why I keep saying, this established sexism is bad for both genders.

[Candice June Lee]

I think it is a domination thing. Some people are naturally dominate. With that they don't know how to use it. Others are insecure. Those are the loudest, usually don't have a clue what is being discussed. So if "I am louder know one knows I am an idiot" mentality. In that no one else can say anything. So no one sees the stupid in them. Unless you sit like I do in the shadows and watch and listen. We are all guilty of dominating at times. For others its a way of hiding their insecurities.

[Nadine Spirit]

I have great difficulty with this topic. The thing I have difficulty with is that in discussing it people make statements that go "men _______" and "women _________." It removes the individual nature of human beings. Do some people at some times seemingly get more privilege than others, sure. Does it mean that everyone from the group that supposedly belong together receive those same privileges universally? No.

As soon as we start generalizing and say things like "men get ...." Then when we see a man the assumption is made that he gets those things simply because he is male, without ever even talking to him. The same thing goes for women. Just because she is female does not mean that she shares the same life experiences with everyone else who society deems to be female.

[Ezekiel]

I have great difficulty with this topic. The thing I have difficulty with is that in discussing it people make statements that go "men _______" and "women _________." It removes the individual nature of human beings. Do some people at some times seemingly get more privilege than others, sure. Does it mean that everyone from the group that supposedly belong together receive those same privileges universally? No.

No? So in Saudi Arabia, as a quite extreme but simple example, doesn't one get all the rights a man gets, and over women, that one gets just because one is male?

So you are denying patriarchy status quo too?

[Samantha Clark]

I have great difficulty with this topic. The thing I have difficulty with is that in discussing it people make statements that go "men _______" and "women _________." It removes the individual nature of human beings. [snip]

Just because she is female does not mean that she shares the same life experiences with everyone else who society deems to be female.

This sets the false premise that the disadvantages must be shared by all individuals of the class, else the disadvantage does not exist. Just because some individuals in the class are not disadvantaged does not mean that structural sexism is nonexistent. Similarly, you don't have to prove that everyone is a sexist in order to establish that sexism exists.

The fact of the matter is that, while I try to believe that I am the author of my own success, I am the beneficiary of institutional and social bias which benefit me as a male.

[Felicia Dee]

I was born and raised a male and have never -- NEVER -- been privileged on any level, at anytime. Everything I have, everything I have accomplished or survived, I did so with fury and at great personal expense.

[Tina_gm]

We can say all day what male privilege used to be, being able to vote, or the limitless jobs one could have, the better pay etc etc...

Today, that is quickly disappearing. There is some certain male privilege today, I believe that males are still not looked down upon if they have numerous sexual partners, at least not looked down upon the same way women are. Men can still show anger and aggression and it be ok, of course so long as no actual harm comes from it. A woman showing these emotions often gets the title of bitch. I do believe there is a certain amount of extra respect of men in leadership positions. When a male CEO or some other leadership position, he will likely not be questioned as much, or doubted as much.

I believe there is certain female privilege as well, but that is another topic.

[Ezekiel]

I was born and raised a male and have never -- NEVER -- been privileged on any level, at anytime. Everything I have, everything I have accomplished or survived, I did so with fury and at great personal expense.

And nobody doubts that. Nobody here ever pointed anything like that for a male life is as easy as having a walk in the park.

Again, this thread is discussing sexism, not anybodys personal story. I don't want to sound like a bitch, but it seems it has to be pointed out every 2-3 responses...


I believe there is certain female privilege as well, but that is another topic.

We could perhaps start a new thread about what we all think about female privilege. Infact, I'm going to start it myself to see what people here thinks is female privilege, because im really, really curious, as I don't really see much privileges for females myself.

[flatlander_48]

You know, the fact that no one commented on this tells me that there is no interest in trying to actually understand what women experience. Sad to say, that speaks volumes...

DeeAnn



I propose a small experiment...

Guys, put these questions to adult women that you know:


Does sexism exist? (Use SEXISM specifically and NOT Privilege)
If #1 was yes, have you experienced this personally, witnessed a sexist act or both?
If #1 was yes, how do you deal with it?
If #2 was yes, describe the situation.


Please post your findings here when you have them.

Thanks,

DeeAnn

[Greenie]

I will answer. But as a female. Well., yeah. You all know that by now.

1. Yes.
2. Yes. Daily.
3. I try to call it out when I see it at work. I did correct my boss when he called me "little lady" and told me that he couldn't be honest with most women because they all "cry and get over emotional.
4. What time? The time I was told that the clothing I was wearing was distracting and it was a turtleneck, but the guy can wear a velvet sweatsuit to the office and nothing is said. My boss telling me that my other female coworker was a "silly girl" for asking about ethical treatment in the workplace.

My favorite. I am required to have a college degree for my job. And the guy who cleans toilets makes 4.00 an hour more than me. When asked about the wage disparity, I was told that "historically maintence makes more" However, all this guy does it clean toilets, sweep and mop. While I manage the board of commissioners and our legal procurement contracts?

[gailbridges]

This is a fascinating topic. (I will apologize up front here for not including all the various gendertypes in the following)

Look... I don't think I'm going out on a limb here saying that this site is predominantly populated with accounts owned by CLOSETED (in one way or another) males.
What I don't get is those who even 'QUESTION' the very existence of male privilege. (and, of course there is female privilege, but let's stay on-topic)

But here's my argument.....
"IF" there is no male privilege, then we have equality. Equality in all things, right?
Then why are there closeted Tgirls?
WE (yes, I am closeted) are closeted for fear of being ostracized as being seen as anything less than male. Sure, the wife might also be worth hiding from because we are encroaching on her territory too. But judging from how many DADT-type relationships I see mentioned here in the forum, it's a valid point.

The other part I don't get is.....
Well, the way I see it..... after years of CDing, and reading and discussing and observing how women work the fashion, makeup, deportment aspects of life and how WE can find a way to "PASS".... well, it sure seems like we guys would be much more attuned to the tiny details of the female experience as a whole AND take on more feminine traits beyond how we look. Not the least of which is compassion, caring, listening... and trying to walk (figuratively speaking) in the shoes of another.

I get that there is a strong sexual component for we CDers (et al) involved with this "hobby", but it's such a narrow avenue to only display/consider that aspect of women.
I think if we gendernauts want to get more of the female experience, we must TRY to have empathy for women of every stripe.

(I'd like to know if there are any transmen following this thread and what they have to say about the subject.)
Oh, and I'd like to thank Greenie, and Reine for their strong and clear posts.

[justmetoo]

I think Isha said it very well, and I agree.

Reine, I tired the liberal arts/science "test" from that site. An interesting exercise.
I got
"Your data suggest a slight association of Male with Science and Female with Liberal Arts compared to Female with Science and Male with Liberal Arts."
But I think that's because more males just happen to be in science (and STEM in general), and that's a cultural thing due to the fact that girls and women are not typically encouraged to be in science (and all too often, actively discouraged from it, historically and even in this day). I do not believe there is anything about girls and women vs boys and men and their respective abilities that should make that disparity a foregone conclusion. The same can be said for other groups as well (for example, the low percentage of some races in STEM).

We can argue/discuss privilege until the cows come home, but the fact is there is inequality. And my belief (or liberal bias, if you like) is inequality is not good for anyone, even those who think they are above it.

[PaulaQ]

Question is: what are your thoughts on "male privilege?"
- What is it? Can you define it?
- Does it exist everywhere? Is it a work thing, social thing, or something else entirely?
- Is there a female privilege (say, in the nursing field)?
- How have you experienced it while crossdressing?
- Is it a problem that is solveable? Is it entirely on men to solve, or is it more a sexual difference problem that requires work on both sides? Or, do we even need to solve it?


1. It's the unearned and often unnoticed perks men get that give them advantages over women, and hell yes I've experienced it. It is quite notable when you lose it, as I have during transition. Examples:
- preparation for work or going out takes much longer as a woman.
- women are frequently ignored or talked over in meetings and gatherings
- given a man and a woman together, servers, salesmen, etc. will nearly always defer to the man.
- typically male character traits such as aggression and judgment and competitiveness are valued more highly in business than typical female traits such as emotion, compassion, and cooperation. (Note: all people have these traits to an extent - but some are more commonly associated with men than women.)
- traditionally in the west, women take their husband's last name upon marriage. It's a lot of work to update this everywhere!
- men are never assumed, by default to be potential stay at home dads in the workplace, but it is often assumed that women will be stay at home moms.
- the ability to walk away from the consequences of a pregnancy is an advantage.
- assertive men are seen as strong, and leaders, assertive women as bitches.
- men's ideas tend to be taken more seriously
- women are frequently the primary care givers in a home, even if they work. It's assumed men will just work
- T makes it easier to suppress emotion, and this is seen as a favorable trait
- men are not generally objectified in the same way women are.
- men are much less prone to be victims of physical assaults or rapes
- men have a lot more control over their reproductive health

2. Yes, there is female privilege. It really doesn't come close to being equal.
- women are more free to express emotion
- women have much more leeway in terms of clothes and other expression
- there are fields where women dominate - child care or nursing for example. These aren't typically the most lucrative fields
- attractive women can often manipulate men. That this is needed suggests that this isn't a privilege, nevertheless we can often get guys to do stuff we don't wanna do
- it is typically easier for women to talk their way out of a ticket (I've experienced this myself)
- women can flirt, make eye contact, and otherwise express interest in men without risking direct rejection generally. Guys usually have to ask for a date. (Whether this is actually better depends on your personality and skill with people.)

3. Experienced in transition

4. Yes, it is solvable. It will require changes in men and women, and society. Typically feminine traits need to be valued as highly as typically masculine traits.

[Krististeph]

Really good thoughts- I agree on the aggression aspect as an active form. But as a passive form, men do get deference. I notice it in school when female teachers intentionally give deference to females(viewpoint from me as a student). Hey, I'm all for it, but I do ask for acknowledgement just the same(in male gender, but not because of gender) in class discussion.

Even then, and i've discussed this with the other profs (i'm typically older than most college students) and it is more likely due to my age and aggressive engagement in classes, but being male allows me to pull this off a little easier.

THAT SAID, I've had a few female students- who pick up on the fact that while i do not play favorites- I do encourage females to participate in my classes and discussions as they are in a typically male associated/dominated field, and i support them unequally in doing so. One student in particular- young- 19-21 or so- quite smart and capable, danced through the class easily, just jumped in and grabbed the curriculum by the horns- I like it when ANY student does that- she aced the course and did a little freelance along the way.

Just had a less assertive, but much more experienced student do similar- significant freelancing (altering of the curriculum to meet her needs/experience). Navy tech, extremely mature in mindset (she does field service for medical eye lasers now), very good progressive self instruction... She asked for several things i would normally say no to to most students, but worked with her. As I did another (male) student in a roughly equal (but different) case earlier.

I think men tend to be braver in asking, and I personally will probably support women more because of this.

But the passive tendency to default to a the male exists still. I think GGs underscore this either intentionally or unintentionally, as a group, and are generally okay with it- it's nice to let someone else lead and do the 'hard' work... let us be honest- a somewhat higher percentage (than not) of females would be happy to stay home and raise the family and allow the husband to be the primary breadwinner.

I think this colors the issue- and influences it.

personally- i will take it if offered, but not go out of my way to expect it at the cost of females. I have my own family to support- and i'll do what i need to to take the advantage i can. Whether i'm wearing pants or a skirt.

there will always be inequality, it is the nature of physics, emotion, society. But there can be fairness in that inequality, if both parties are willing to play fair.

From what I have seen, men are getting away with about a 15-20% advantage overall, which is not as much as it used to be, and not as bad as one might imagine. I personally figure i've been on the short end of 50-80% advantages in business (non gender related) and still kept up my part. If females are willing to step up and demand and take what they think is theirs, they can easily beat the male average, IMO. They may be outliers, but get enough of them, and suddenly the bell curve has shifted...

[Kathleen Ann Trees]

Congratulations to all. Following this discussion has been one of the most enjoyable threads I've ever read. Many, many good points and most well thought and presented. Clearly a difficult topic to achieve consensus yet the differences allows a growth of understanding. I wish our culture could be this open and thoughtful on so many issues. I like to believe that with all of the sordid history of male female relationships we are coming closer to achieving the best balance we can. There will be work to do for a few more generations, at least, but the goal of equality seems to be well rooted now. Whatever your passion, pursue it, and don't let others hold you back. Find another way around hurdles if you must.

The point I wish to contribute is we need to stop pitting one group against another to gain constituencies. Black vs white. Male vs female. Age. Nationality. Theology, and host of social issues. I hope the future allows more acceptance for differentiation, whatever the category, so we can focus on moving the bar up for everyone.

[Eryn]

Are you talking about the male privilege where (in my time) you could be drafted and sent to war and return in a box or with body parts missing?


3. Yes, men have gone to war. But women are now fighting to be allowed to join the military in the same capacity as men.

Still, the salient point is that, in the US, males are still required to register for the draft and females are exempt. I've never heard of any feminist organization fighting to rectify this inequality.

While there are successful efforts to allow women to take on combat roles in the military it remains that the women who take on these roles must volunteer to do so. Males can be placed in these roles involuntarily at any time. It is not equality when females may choose the hazards that they wish to face and males may not.

In Iraq, as of the end of 2014, 110 female and 4,368 male male service members were killed. 97.5% of those killed were male.

Obviously, not all male "privilege" is positive.

I'll also point out that people who are transgender are prohibited from serving. This didn't stop a lot of TG males from being drafted and killed since the determination of being TG was subject to the draft board.

[sometimes_miss]

I wrote "I think most of us all grew up in a situation where as children, we were treated as second class citizens, unless of course you were one of the spoiled brats that threw tantrums and your parents gave you whatever you wanted to calm down; that's pretty much a new phenomenon"
Then:

You are mixing apples with oranges. But now that you talk about it, imagine the same but being female. Probably worse, more restricted expectations.
The question was if we'd experienced being treated as second class citizens. The answer was yes. Now it's clear that you're just going to try to keep coming up with more things to complain about. I can do that too. If you want, take it to private messaging. I have all the time in the world.

Women have always had it harder, they always have been restricted and treated as less than equal, even today, thats why its still an issue. Even if its not in your personal experience, trust me they do have it harder. Its on a planetary scale, worse on some places than others, but still an issue everywhere on Earth.
Lets stop with the history lessons. It has nothing to do with today. Or do you also want to argue about how the cro-magnon man treated neanderthals as less than equal? Let's stick to the current state of affairs where we actually live, huh? Women have it harder in some ways, easier in others. Whether it 'evens out' is a matter of opinion. You're certainly entitled to yours, but have no right to tell me mine is wrong and i must change my opinion any more than I have to expect you to do the reverse.
Sexism works both ways. You can read about it here and in the other thread as well.

Im not even saying that women don't have the advantage on some very specific things, which is also obvious and they have it that way because they fought hard for it in the past, like when they fought hard for being permited to wear trousers. But those very scarce things where they actually have an advantage are not really all that noticeable in the everyday life
Not noticable to who? Maybe you. But then again, when you already have your decision made, you're only going to see what you expect to see, and disregard the rest.

and of course it does not balance out like some say here using the phrase "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". Its not true in this case.
Which case? Besides, it's an observation that one person makes. So whether you see it that way, doesn't mean someone else can't see it the opposite way.

Patriarchy is still the established order
Yes. However fewer women WANT to fight to be in charge of things. In our current world, you don't just 'get to' be a leader, you have to earn it, and earning it takes a lot of work, aggression, assertiveness, and a willingness to sacrifice many things in order to succeed. Women in a social setting will usually take turns doing things. Men will compete and keep their position until someone takes it from them. Men are simply more competitive in many ways, and are more willing to give up things in order to climb the ladder to success than women are. There are women who are willing to do that, and you do see them as political and business leaders, just not as often, and yes it is because they don't want it as badly because they're less willing to do what's necessary to succeed; the situation is what defines what's necessary to succeed, not the person who wants the position. I often hear women complain that they went to school, they got their degree, then their (law, medicine, accounting, etc..) license, then they want to know why they don't get handed a top job? Because they didn't do what the situation required. That may be working 80 hours a week, kissing the bosses ass on a daily basis, letting him win on the golf course and acting like he really did, or even marrying his ugly nasty daughter (or son, if that's what the boss wants in his next VP). Again, when you want to advance to a position, you have to do whatever is necessary. Women often aren't willing to do that, mostly because they can usually get what they want in life without doing so. Men, however, MUST get to the top to get what they want, or be willing to accept less. A woman can sleep her way to success, riches, and position. A man cannot, so they work harder.
As far as patriarchy and inheriting power and wealth, the Countries that are still ruled by a monarch who hands down his position to a son (or daughter) are slowly disappearing. Why? because of idiots being crowned king, queen, emporer, or idiot despot (yes Kim Jong Un, I'm talking about you) are going out of style because that system doesn't work as reliabley to bring qualified people to rule. I'm not saying the republic system is perfect, but to get elected into office you can't be a complete ass as well as surrounded by them (as much as I didn't like GWB, I do admit that he had some very smart people working with him, Cheney was a friggin genius), while that CAN happen in monarchies, and can be the end of them in one poor generation of fools.

there is still sexism. Why you deny it?
I don't deny it. But it works both ways.

Its easy for me to see this and I'm male, yes I'm TG, but male, why is it you don't acknowledge that there is still terrible sexism that damages both, males and females, in their everyday life?
Because I don't like to whine about it. It's common knowledge. And it is gradually changing, but apparently not as fast as you'd like.

Forgot to add... many complain here about the issue that women are permitted wearing trousers, whereas men are not permitted to wear dresses. Let me ask you this question...Why do you think women can wear "all" they want (which is not entirely the case, but for simplicity),
I never wrote that women can wear 'all' they want, at least, not without any ramifications of doing so. No such thing. Now you're just making stuff up to be argumentative.

and men are restricted to some things and are looked down upon if they wear clothes such as skirts, dresses, make up (on most cases) and a long list?
Because wearing female clothing commonly results in erroneous assumptions about the male who does it, that he is more likely than not to less reliably behave as our society expects a male to in situations where the safety of others is concerned, whether that be if he's a soldier, defending his female mate, or defending a female in his society that is being attacked; or, less likely to keep doing his job even if he is unhappy doing it. He is considered 'less of a man' by most people. If YOU cannot understand that, perhaps you need to study psychology and sociology a bit more. The fact is, at least in many parts of the civilized world, men and women CAN wear whatever they want, BUT they have to be prepared for the results of their actions. And yes, there are still laws on the books in some places in America (and perhaps elsewhere, but of that I'm not sure) that make wearing any type of disguise such as that which might make you appear to be a member of the opposite sex, a crime. I didn't write the laws. I suppose they were enacted to prevent criminals from robbing someone while appearing as one sex, and then changing to the other in order to not be caught (same with spies).

Tell me why? I'll tell you why men can't wear dresses without it being accepted. Men can't do this because of men. Yes... It is men who are not letting men this freedom. Its machism, its sexism, because they think it makes you less of a man, which in their minds is many times less of a person, and less respectable because it is associated that anything that they relate to being "feminine" is inferior.
Men don't like it because well, lots of them think we're gay, and they want nothing to do with that. Also, it represents several other things to men: 1. as above, the possibility that the crossdresser will not live up to the responsibilities that men have in the society in which they live; provider, soldier, protector. 2. That if he associates with the crossdresser in any way, he will be suspect of being a crossdresser, and 'less of a male', as well, damaging his chances of getting the female mate of his choice 3. He feels he must prove that he is 'more of a man' than the crossdresser because of the assumption that if he does not, some may assume it, also damaging his reputation. 4. He feels that he must now prove over and over that he is not, and will not, ever be a crossdresser or feminine in any way, in order to avoid being seen as a lesser man; which explains why some will attack us for no particular reason other than to prove to everyone that he's 'tougher than the sissy'.
Women might not like it because of [1] above, which potentially can endanger her, her children, or even other females in her society, 2. because of ignorance, she may see the crossdresser as a sexual competitor for a male she wants. 3. she has absolutely no attraction to him. Women don't usually see us as physically dangerous to her directly (we're assumed as 'weak'), but they simply don't have any use for us, suspect us of homosexuality, and as some still consider this a sexual perversion, assume we may be an eventual threat to their children.

In the end, thats why I keep saying, this established sexism is bad for both genders.
We already know that.


The point I wish to contribute is we need to stop pitting one group against another to gain constituencies. Black vs white. Male vs female. Age. Nationality. Theology, and host of social issues.
There's really no way to prevent it. I can't speak for other countries, but the U.S. public school system leaves out a whole lot of information; it's basic premise was to create a population of reasonable competent workers for the corporations to hire. Beyond that was high school for more technical and scientific matters, and college for further specialization. Today, schools have instead become baby sitters and children don't learn enough basic information in grades 1 through 8 to be employable anywhere. High school as well still spits out people who can't even add and subtract, and often cannot read well enough to comprehend what's in a newspaper or write a letter. So we're a society of folks who are educated to work. The debates you mention happen in social settings, or in online ones such as this one. and I for one enjoy reading other people's opinions. Even at my ripe old age, I still learn things. And I like learning things. I guess it's just something that makes me feel young. Add that to whatever makes me feel pretty, and I'm a happy man....girl....what ever is in my mind at the moment.

[alwayshave]

I believe that there is male privilege. However, we naturally assume that it is all created by men. I am reminded of a story I read several years ago where a group of female graduate students at a university complained to a female professor in another department that there were no female TAs in the department where the female TAs were studying. It seemed the female grad students wished to be TAs as well. The female professor went to the head of the other department and asked why there were no female TAs. The head of the department stated that none of the female grad students had asked to be TAs while the male grad students had. It seems the female grad students were waiting to be asked, while the males went after the job. Is this the male grad student's fault or the female grad student's fault?

[sometimes_miss]

The female professor went to the head of the other department and asked why there were no female TAs. The head of the department stated that none of the female grad students had asked to be TAs while the male grad students had. It seems the female grad students were waiting to be asked, while the males went after the job. Is this the male grad student's fault or the female grad student's fault?
This reflects what I was trying to get across. Men are almost always more aggressive and will go after what they want more often. As they know other males will also, it becomes a 'race' to get the best of everything. It's not that NO women will do that, it's that less of them will.

[Ezekiel]

The question was if we'd experienced being treated as second class citizens. The answer was yes. Now it's clear that you're just going to try to keep coming up with more things to complain about. I can do that too.

If you can relate that well how is it to be a second class citizen, then why don't you agree that sexism damages women more? Frankly, I can't understand that. Sure what you described is bad, and its true aswell that kids are not treated like persons. But the experience should help you see that as woman, it would have been more accute because of the social expectations that limit females very much.

I do not have any grudge against you or anything, don't misunderstand me, no need to private message, and prefer to post here where anybody can enter and discuss.


Lets stop with the history lessons. It has nothing to do with today.

Yes it does, it has everything to do with today. Its good to check history to see how things worked out to arrive to the present point. Its good to remember how bad some people had it in the past, they fought, and now they have it a little better because of the effort.


Let's stick to the current state of affairs where we actually live, huh? Women have it harder in some ways, easier in others

Sure lets stick to it. Women have it harder most of the time, and I'm certainly interested to know what you understand as easier for women.

A few examples of the present situation, just ten of them:

Women are...

1 - Less respected and taken less seriously
2 - Paid less
3 - Expected to be always pretty and beautiful, and they are treated more for their looks than for anything else.
4 - Thought of as weak individuals who always are in need of help (in need of a man?)
5 - Sexually harassed more often, much more often
6 - More likely to be assaulted, robbed and of course raped
7 - Expected to stay at home much more than males when they have kids
8 - Expected to be submissive, although atleast this is changing
9 - More likely to suffer from domestic violence (Not that males don't suffer from this too, but women do on a bigger scale)
10 - Acussed of bitches when they have a very active sexual life (while men can be all the bitches they want and its all good)

This is just a list of ten, theres a lot more.

Yes there is sexism, and for women it is worse and more varied than it is for men. There is sexism against men too, and a few points are pretty bad aswell, but its just not as huge, the list is lesser.


Not noticable to who? Maybe you. But then again, when you already have your decision made, you're only going to see what you expect to see, and disregard the rest.

As I just argumented, female power over male, where they have an advantage, a clear one, its a situation that is not very common. Thats why its not very noticeable in every day life to see that a female wins over a male something just because of gender. They are more likely to get the custody of kids, thats a good example.

But this is one situation against one hundred others that males get over females just because of gender.

Remember though, its patriarchy that wants it this way because it thinks of women as the ones who are expected to take care of children. It depends on how you see it, but to me, its still machism.

Im not going to disregard anything by the way. To me, theres injustice both ways, only that women really do have it worse because as I said, the list is bigger.

And well, concerning the rest of your post, I am going to make my response pretty short. All the reasons you listed about crossdressing are still explained by machism and machism alone.

I don't need to study any more sociology to see that ending machism, opens so many opportunities for the TG community.

[sometimes_miss]

2 - Paid less
As soon as I saw that one, I knew you're just here to complain and argue without anything to back up your statements. Wall Street Journal quoted the U.S. census that college educated women make 101% of what college educated men do. Parity has been reached over 20 years ago. Women who are serious about their careers earn just as much as men. It's the ones who take time off to have kids and/or choose jobs that pay less that skew the results, it's been proven over and over. I'm done here. You can argue with everyone else if you wish.

[ReineD]

Wall Street Journal quoted the U.S. census that college educated women make 101% of what college educated men do. Parity has been reached over 20 years ago.

Where's your source (link please).

Women's percentage of men's salaries, among various demographics
IWPR - 2015 data
http://statusofwomendata.org/app/uploads/2015/02/EE-CHAPTER-FINAL.pdf

1. By age (page 9, 10):
Older women: 72.5%
Millennials (women under 35): 85.7%

2. By education (page 13):
Women with grad degrees: 69.1%
Women with bachelor degrees: 71.4%
Women with High School diplomas: 75%

3. Results by state, with more than 58.6% women in the labor force (page 3):
United States average: 79.2%
High, New York: 87.6%
Low, Louisiana: 66.7%

4. Projected year for closing the gender wage gap (page 4):
By state: from 2038 (23 yrs) to 2159 (144 yrs)

[Nadine Spirit]

I think it is a bit misleading to say "salaries." It is more accurate to describe it as "earnings," as your linked article describes them. Salaries implies this is what women are paid, while earnings state this is what women made. While there is no doubt that women earned less then men, why they earn less is debatable. To imply it is due solely to systemic sexism is misleading.

[sometimes_miss]

Where's your source (link please).
It was in a copy of the Wall Street Journal that I read in the 1990's, I think it was around late 1992 after the census figures came out, the story was on the front page. Feel free to search through them all to find the exact article. Or, download the 1990 U.S. census (because that's where the dept of labor got the information), all oh, probably 20,000 pages of it, and check out the figures. I don't have to provide the exact link any more than every woman who states the old 70 cents on the dollar thing does, but I'm not making this up; They rant, I can rant back. Besides, no one wins an argument like this; they will continue to believe whatever they want to believe, no matter what facts are presented, and logic be damned. Based on the continuation of all those 70% stories, it seems that far too many feminists are conspiracy nuts. When I ask for their figures, all I get is their own personal experiences of their friends complaining about men being paid more; no facts. Ever. Besides, please consider: If equally qualified women really were available for 70 cents on the dollar, why wouldn't every company fire all the men and hire women instead, increasing their profits by an astronomical amount? You know the answer I usually get? 'Because men stick together and prefer to work with other men'. Yeah, like that would overcome the natural greed of the corporation's executives and stockholders; they'd hire baboons if they were equally capable, if they could keep that 30% for themselves. The 70% concept is great for headlines. Nothing else.

[Katey888]

Fascinating as this all is... not sure how this is now relating to crossdressing and/or crossdressers..? :)

Let's steer clear of the general politics of sexism please and keep it relevant to the impact on our community or our activities.... per the OP...

Ta very much... :)

Katey
Moderator

[Ezekiel]

Besides, please consider: If equally qualified women really were available for 70 cents on the dollar, why wouldn't every company fire all the men and hire women instead, increasing their profits by an astronomical amount? You know the answer I usually get? 'Because men stick together and prefer to work with other men'. Yeah, like that would overcome the natural greed of the corporation's executives and stockholders; they'd hire baboons if they were equally capable, if they could keep that 30% for themselves. The 70% concept is great for headlines. Nothing else.

I'll tell you why:

- Women get pregnant; stop working and the corporation will still have to pay. (Atleast in Europe, don't know about the US)
- Women get time off to be with the kids, which equals less labour hours.
- Women tend to visit more the doctor, which also equals less labour hours.
- Women are more likely to be victim of harassment (sexual), this counts for them too.

[Greenie]

It was in a copy of the Wall Street Journal that I read in the 1990's, I think it was around late 1992 after the census figures came out, the story was on the front page. Feel free to search through them all to find the exact article. Or, download the 1990 U.S. census (because that's where the dept of labor got the information), all oh, probably 20,000 pages of it, and check out the figures. I don't have to provide the exact link any more than every woman who states the old 70 cents on the dollar thing does, but I'm not making this up; e.

Just a heads up. You told ezikeil to use modern fact that we weren't talking about the past. But you use a study 25 years old as your basis for argument? You can't have it both ways. That the past isn't relevant, but this article I read 25 years ago nullifies all your current facts?

I have a hard time believing men who aren't traditional in their gender roles or presentations can be this judgemental about the world.

It's sad to me. I always had this thought that crossdressers were more understanding or empathetic of the struggles women face daily. Obviously that empathy is a "privlidge" that women have over men. (Not all of your of course. Many of you in adore and thank you for being involved in this) (but I am also sorely dissapointed ) I thank God my future husband doesn't think this way.

These are the reason I leave the forum for months at a time. The harsh reality, that some men here are just as a sexist and judgemental of people, as others are of them. Sad really.

[Badtranny]

It's sad to me. I always had this thought that crossdressers were more understanding or empathetic of the struggles women face daily..

El Oh El

Obviously if you spend any time at all perusing the threads you can see that the CD's are for the most part just regular dudes that have a bit of a bend. There are exceptions of course, but most of them are decidedly not very feminine looking or acting. Which by the way is not an insult. If I were dating a guy who told me he was a CD, I wouldn't be immediately turned off unless he wanted to take it further or was (shudder) TS. I don't like feminine men, but if he was just a regular guy that had this little kink, I don't think I would mind, because after all, he would still be 100% dude no matter how he dressed.

[ReineD]

Nadine Yes, I stand to be corrected, they did say earnings not salaries. But they compared female to male full-time work, so it doesn't look as if women earn less because they take more time off, if this is what you meant?