Pretending to be a woman so that we can be ourselves.

[Julia Cross]

Most of us want to go out dressed, and many worry about being spotted/outted. Myself, I would be totally content to go out wearing my favourite skirt and top with appropriate footwear, etc., all tastefully chosen and presented however my male identity would still be be evident. Generally, something a little more conservative, not frilly or overtly girly, hair being neat and kept, not a wig, no makeup but shaven.

I hope you can get the picture, generally an androgynous male wearing a skirt instead of pants, not a mini, or frilly skirt, but a skirt version of a pair of pants. If society could get past stereotypes, this really wouldn't look all that odd.

A burly man, even clean shaven, wearing a delicate and colourful dress or outfit will always look inappropriate, the two just don't work together. Certain styles of dress fit certain body styles and physical appearances.

I hope I explained this well enough. My main point was, do we always need to pretend to be a woman in order to wear women's things, or can we find a way to be our male selves while openly displaying our femine aspects.

Julia

[uknowhoo]

Hello Julia.

Yes, I think you explained it perfectly well.

It is an interesting question. Which is harder for society to accept an understated "guy in a dress" as you describe, or a crossdresser with complete make-up, wig, etc. Of course, society doesn't "decide," individuals do. I myself would be very content to go out as you described, sans make-up, wig; but I don't see that happening anytime soon (even though I've been out fully dressed on several occasions). I think the make-up and wig are almost like a safety net, a mask to prevent others from seeing who the crossdresser under there might really be. Hopefully someday I will feel comfortable enough to go out without the whole 9 yards. Who knows?

Thanks for the cool thread.

Hugs,

Tammi

[Julia Cross]

Hi Tammi,

Something that I noticed when i watched programming about CD's or read articles is that for many non-CD's there seems to be a mistrust in us because we our pretending to be someone else, another gender as well as another person entirely. I think back to rock stars in the 80's, many of whom pushed the gender barrier more than others, but didn't pretend to be another person entirely. Society was more accepting of them. of course they were celebrities so some acceptance comes with the fact that we allow stars to do things we don't alow others. But the basis is there.

In my high school days, we had a student who chose to wear a skirt once in a while, in an 80's alternative way, wild hair and accessories as well, but presentable and acceptable. Yes he was made fun of, but he was respected all the same. People may not share in your beliefs or desires but they will respect you for those choices as long as you show strength of conviction in yourself by being true to yourself, and not pretending.

This is not a clear cut representation of CD's, as there are many reasons why we take dressing to the extremes that many of us do, but it can be percieved as pretending to be someone else and that will cause non-cd's to question our conviction or belief in ourselves if indeed we must pretend.

Clear as mud?

Julia

[uknowhoo]

Point well taken. It was very common (accepted) to see a guy in a dress at Grateful Dead shows (easier to dance and twirl). No pretense, no problem.

Another way to look at it... There is nothing inherently female about women's clothing, or make-up, or even wigs. They are only associated with feminity as a matter of social construct. In this way of thinking, the only items we CDers wear which would truly be considered "pretending" would be breast forms and bras. When you originally made your statement about going out as a guy in a dress, did you mean with breast forms under your female attire?

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, just thought I'd throw it out there. Interesting stuff.

Tammi

[Julia Cross]

No breast forms or bras. I know it is a grey area, however, pantyhose are a substitute for socks or bare legs, skirt for pants, blouse for shirt. What purpose does a bra really serve a man?

Again, this is just an observation, not a criticism of men wearing bras, I have some for myself as well. I struggle with concept of dressing as a man in womens attire versus dressing as a woman, pretending.

J

[MsJanessa]

Most of us want to go out dressed, and many worry about being spotted/outted. Myself, I would be totally content to go out wearing my favourite skirt and top with appropriate footwear, etc., all tastefully chosen and presented however my male identity would still be be evident. Generally, something a little more conservative, not frilly or overtly girly, hair being neat and kept, not a wig, no makeup but shaven.

I hope you can get the picture, generally an androgynous male wearing a skirt instead of pants, not a mini, or frilly skirt, but a skirt version of a pair of pants. If society could get past stereotypes, this really wouldn't look all that odd.

A burly man, even clean shaven, wearing a delicate and colourful dress or outfit will always look inappropriate, the two just don't work together. Certain styles of dress fit certain body styles and physical appearances.

I hope I explained this well enough. My main point was, do we always need to pretend to be a woman in order to wear women's things, or can we find a way to be our male selves while openly displaying our femine aspects.

Julia
of course you are correct Julia---as I've said in other posts the whole point in dressing en femme shouldn't be to "pass" or in other words to fool people, but to look as attractive and feminine as you can---that means of course choosing the right outfit for your body type and the occasion(where you are going) I wouldn't dream for wearing the dress I'm wearing in My avatar to the local shopping mall or even to a fancy restaurant but to fetish night at the local gay bar or with an in home date with that special someone,:dom: it is entirely appropriate. The point is not to try to fool anyone but to be attractive and comfortable in your own skin---I do wear foundation falsies but then the cut of the clothes I wear requires I do so to look good. and besides I like to wear them---certainly I'm ok if someone choses not to.

[GypsyKaren]

When I go out I'm not looking to be seen as a woman, just as a person, nothing more, but nothing less. I don't care if I get read, it happens all the time. I'm courteous and polite to everyone and I pretty much get the same in return.

I would never dream of going out unless I was completely dressed, wig, forms, make-up and such. I always want to look my best, this makes me feel good about myself. I also, quite frankly, don't want to stick out like a sore thumb, but I feel the same about that when I'm in drab.

Karen

[Cathy Anderson]

Let me offer a different persepective. I offer the following premises as hypothetical only, and without proof:

1. People, most anyway, are extremely dumb. Not that they are really, but
something happens to them to make them act and think that way.

2. It's worse in public, and when people are in groups.

3. Really dumb people find it hard to deal with complications. Therefore they have a need to simplify things. If things get too complicated, they can get irrational or even violent (witness recent riots over political cartoons).

Therefore, if no other reason than a realistic appreciation for the stupidity of other people, dressing in a way consistent with an extremely simple view of gender (men wear male clothes; women wear female clothes), has value.

In other words--don't confuse the savages if you can avoid it :)

Cathy

[KimberlyS]

I must say that I am with Julia and Tammi on this one.

While I can and have been out and do fully dress including wig and makeup and do a decent job of "Passing", I am just a guy in a skirt.

Even when I am fully dress I do not feel girly or like a woman. I feel like my 'normal' male self wearing feminine clothes. For me I feel the makeup and wig are just a mask for me to hide behind to protect myself and my family from what may happen due to "society" norms. I can not see putting my family through what could happen in this small town if I was outed.

When I dress at home I feel myself in just feminine clothes, no makeup or wig, just doing things around the house. I just wish I could leave the house without changing.

But as I told my wife, until I can wear a jean skirt, feminine top with work boots and a 3 day beard and go the hardware store.... I will leave the house either presenting my male self or a female self.

I also agree that if I did do this I would need to dress appropriately such as:
-- Jean skirt, tee or dress down femme top, work boots and scruffy beard would be ok for home and at the hardware.
-- Casual to business casual skirt, nice blouse, pumps or flats, clean shave and well groomed for the office, and maybe a skirt suit, pumps, light lipstick, and appropriate jewelry for important meeting.
-- Causal skirt or slacks, top, basic jewelry and flats for general running around town, grocery shopping.
-- Nice skirt outfit, dress, or suit for more formal events such as a wedding, would be well groomed, light lipstick, nice jewelry, and maybe, maybe, a bit of makeup if very formal event.

KimberlyS - CD
a guy in a skirt

[Sarahgurl371]

I dress to see me looking back in the mirror. the only other person to see me dressed at all is my wife, and those of you who have seen my pictures. I have never been out in public, therefore I am not trying to fool anyone. Although I will say that seeing some of your pictures here has made me want to be better at presenting female.

I dress for me. Sometimes that is for different reasons. Yes it can be exciting at times, might as well go there first, thats what most think anyway. But when I dress fully, all done up, its because I want to see myself that way. Still don't know why it is, it just is. I guess the make up and stuff is just to make me look more feminine. If I could just put on some clothes and look as feminine as I wished, (think GG who just gets up and puts some material on to cover herself) that would be great. But I have male features and do not wish to see them. So I sometimes use make up etc. to cover them up. I am not pretending to be anything. Just me, the way I think I should look at the time.

Make any sense?

[jolien]

I have been out several times now totally enfemme. I really enjoy being called a lady and presenting myself as a woman. However, I also know what you mean by just wearing what you want to wear. Recently, I have been buying women's clothes that could pass as male. I like the way women's clothes are cut, and also the material seems to be different, softer I guess. So sometimes I go out totally enfemme, but sometimes I am simply a male in women's clothes.

[Butterfly Bill]

You have described exactly what I have been doing for the last 12 years. No makeup, no wig, full beard, I choose clothes that look good on my male body. No, you certainly don't have to pretend to be a woman in order to be able to wear articles of "women's clothing". I believe I get a much more favorable reaction from others due to the honesty of this than I would get from successfully creating any illusion.

[Liberty]

I have never worn makeup, never knew enough about skin care to take any risks in regards to my skin and complexion.
I don't like to wear jewelery.
Never wore heels, (but have about 40 pairs of shoes)
Never wore a bra or falsies, (but it looks like it could be fun to try!)
Never wore a wig yet.

I don't grow hair on my face.
In the military I wore nylons to avoid cold legs and friction from my uniform and occasionally still do for that purpose. (at nighttime "its stockings for me :angel:")
I have been carrying a purse for about 20 years, (I don't like the term manbag)

I do wear girlie jeans and belts, slinky pants, panties, skirts, and skorts always coordinating and stylish while out and about regularly. I like to walk with finesse but I'm not trying to pretend to be anything more than I feel I simply am. While at times I feel as though I am seeking androgyny. I make no attempt to pass as the extreme opposite of the male gender, or to pass as the male gender.
many members of the local chapter of gals like me say that I shouldn't go out like I do because I am delivering mixed messages, they want for me to dress up and not blow thier cover... I still don't understand what they are getting at regarding "mixed messages". I hope I'm not offending anybody in the trans lifestyle. I only mean well and am thinking good things about all of us as much as possible.
~Liberty

[Kaitlyn Michele]

my 2 cents is to keep in mind that we are all different with one obvious similarity...hehe

i've been out many times, i must admit that i enjoy trying to pass..i know i dont really pass but more often than not i'm not really noticed and for me that's passing...i've also enjoyed being addressed as maam and miss and even one time as a bitch when i walked away really fast from a guy trying to ask me to help him jump his car!!!...i admit it!!! i like that part of it..but that's just me...

last week when i went to a bar for the first time ever i walked in ....i walked in behind a whole gaggle of girls..(much younger than me) and i compared clothes etc...i did it very naturally and it really relaxed me because i was unbearable nervous outside the bar before going in..(walked back to my car at least 3 times and actually drove away once!)... those girls made me feel ok and i think it all fit into my own little fantasy....my fantasy is to "be" a woman...again that's just me... many of us the feeling of the clothes or the look in the mirror or the click of the heels does it...toes? breasts? underwear or totally made up head to toe, we are all so wonderfully different in how we express ourselves...

so i think its a great question because it gets to the part of dressing of why do you do it...and its ok to dress and its ok to be a guy in a dress and i think its ok to try to be a "pretend" girl in a dress...whatever works for you

anyway..just my 2 cents

[AnnaMaria]

Lately I have started to buy womens clothes to replace my usual male ones. Things such as womens jeans and pants to wear to work instead of mens. And yes they are more comfortable than mens. They are softer and cut for more room. They also allow me to go out dressed in a maner that I want without taking the risk of being caught dressed. Personally I would never want to go out in a dress or skirt to work because of the work that I do and the fact that I never know when I might have to be crawling around on the floor at work but that said I would love to be able to slip into a skirt and blouse and go shopping or out to eat without worrying about the reactions from the people in my town. But I have to agree with Gypsy on this one, for me the makup, and forms is just part of my outfit when I put on a skirt. I don't really feel like I am trying to hide who I am or pretend to be more than I am. I am simply presenting another look. But as it happens it is the look that I prefer and would love to be able to present more often in an ideal situation.

anna

[TGMarla]

Whereas I agree with most all of the above statements and points of view, I present as female when dressed primarily because I really enjoy presenting as female. I like "having" breasts. I like long hair styled in a feminine way. And I very much enjoy the feeling I get of "being" a woman. Therefore, when I dress, I want to look and feel as much like a genetic female as I can. Because of my domestic situation, and other considerations such as my career and friends, neither of which comes into play at all with my little hobby, I do not shave my legs, arms, or hands. I have worn false nails only once, as they are a pain to put on and remove, and time consuming as well. Couple that with the fact that I'm a home-body (for now), and it makes little sense to go through all that for just an hour or two. But given the freedom to do so, I'd do all that as well, because I really like it. That's more why I present as female. It's not to fool anyone. It's because I like it.

[Julia Cross]

Wow, what wonderful responses. It really shows that there are many levels of crossdressing. All of which are 100% acceptable. We really are a diversified group.

Kimberly, you sumed up quite nicely how I prefer to dress and why.

MsJanessa, I also have falsies for the same reasons. many of the dresses I own, need to filled out. Luckily, I have grown my hair past my shoulders and my career choice affords me the luxury of long hair so I don't need to bother with a wig to complete the feminine look, although I own wigs as well from my short hair days.

Thank you everyone for such wonderfully insightful responses.

Julia

[Emma Brownings]

Hi Julia,
This is a very good question and is something I often wonder about even though I have finally reached the point where I am happy with what I am.

Basically I agree with Marla when she says....


Whereas I agree with most all of the above statements and points of view, I present as female when dressed primarily because I really enjoy presenting as female. I like "having" breasts. I like long hair styled in a feminine way. And I very much enjoy the feeling I get of "being" a woman. Therefore, when I dress, I want to look and feel as much like a genetic female as I can.

I like the whole 'getting dressed' process (although the end results frequently leave me less than pleased) from the underwear, the clothes, the boobs, the shoes, to the wig and makeup.

I am still very much in the closet but if I were brave enough to venture out I don't deny that the makeup / wig etc would be an important mask for me to ensure I was not easily recognised as a man. I would not want to attract unwelcome attention.

Unlike some, 'passing' would be important for me.....but I would still enjoy it. :hiding:

[TracyDeluxe]

Interesting topic. I will no doubt ramble here, but bear with me, if you will.

First of all, I think of myself, I think, as a man, not a woman, but a man with very many womanly attributes. I was raised by women, a whole bunch of them (Mother, Aunt, girl cousins), and they were really the only role models I had. I remember the first time I saw myself on film (Super8, that shows how long ago-1966), it was just before I was going to pick up my date for the prom. Now, I was fairly popular in school, had gone out for various sports, and thought I was doing a pretty good job of hiding the fact that I wished I had been born female. I mean, my date (and she was my "steady") was one of the most popular girls in school. I was shocked, absolutely SHOCKED, to see how I moved, it was so feminine! Before seeing that film, I had no idea I moved that way, I had never given it a thought. But that was my natural way of moving, I guess, I had picked it up from all the women who had raised me, just by example, I suppose.

The next 20 years, I spent almost every moment doing 2 things; wishing that I had been born a woman, and doing everything in my power to keep everyone else from ever finding that out. I perfected the "John Wayne" walk, I became a biker with a Harley, I worked construction, and I acted like a complete asshole (being an asshole meant being masculine, in my mind, I guess). Yet when I would walk, or ride, past a dress shop, it was all I could do, literally, to stop my head from turning to look at the pretty clothes. I would pass woman waiting fof the bus to work, dressed so nicely, and I would ache to look like them. I don't know that I wanted to be them, just to be able to look like them, and wear the things they were wearing.

BUT, unless you happen to live in a very large city, and then only in certain sections, there are just two ways to dress-as a man, or as a woman, and you had better be "what" you are dressing like! (Exceptions to the rule, like Bill take LOTS of courage, way more that I have. Butterfly Bill, I salute you!)

Where am I going with this? Not sure, LOL! Just I guess, that I have chosen a somewhat safer mode to express my love for the feminine style of dress, and have chosen to live fulltime AS a woman, but knowing that I am not. It's safer, more acceptable, easier, whatever, to dress all the way, whether you are dressing as a man, or a woman. People don't like confusion, and they get confused, on a subconsious level, when they get mixed messages.

BUT, one of my longings is to be accepted for who I really am, and I am not the woman I present as, I am an extremely feminine man, who having to make a choice, it seems, has chosen to live as a woman-it fits me much better than living as a man, but it doesn't fit perfectly. But, again barring rare exceptions, there isn't a place in my level of society for the type of man I am.

OK, then, having said all that, I AM getting a little better in coming out to who I really am. I'm kind of in the same stage, in terms of levels, that I was 30 years ago when it came to wearing dresses outside. That is, a quick run out to the car, or the mailbox, or the soda machine, or whatever, but quickly in and out, no extended trips. Run out as a man in woman's clothing!

Don't get me wrong, now, I still love dresses and makeup, and jewelry, and all the other fun stuff that real women get to wear, but I would so love for people to see, and accept, the real me.

This is the real me:

http://static.flickr.com/29/99417682_fb522d5857_o.jpg

a man in girl's clothes. I took this just recently, just before I ran outside to get something out of my truck. Full daylight, out for anyone to see, although I don't think anyone did. It's the same way I dress, really, when I work, sans the makeup, shaving, and wig. But the makeup, shaving, and wig is my concession to "society", but I wish (I don't see it happening) somewhere, someday, someone could love me for who I am, the total me. It's never happened, and I doubt it ever will, but unless I show the total me, how could it?

One of my recurring fantasies is walking down a city street, in the summer, with a SO (man or woman) by my side, eating ice cream, and me wearing a capri outfit (in citrus colors, LOL!), but without the wig, maybe without the makeup, or just a little, and being happy. No one gives a 2nd glance, nobody gives a damn.

So I understand the longing to just wear the clothes, not necessarily to be the clothes.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Even when I am fully dress I do not feel girly or like a woman. I feel like my 'normal' male self wearing feminine clothes. For me I feel the makeup and wig are just a mask for me to hide behind to protect myself and my family from what may happen due to "society" norms. I can not see putting my family through what could happen in this small town if I was outed.




This is how I feel too. I have the female name Alyssa for when I dress but I don't really feel like I'm a girl named Alyssa, I always feel like a guy just a guy in a skirt and hose or whatnot. I would love to be able to go out to a nice relaxing "dive" bar in a denim skirt, maybe some boots, a casual-dressy shirt and maybe a bit of eyeliner, but no wig or cakes of makeup, no stuffed bra. None of that.

[Julia Cross]

Alyssa, that would be the best of both worlds. And then when we want to dress to the 9's we do so. But for the most part, as you described would be great.

Julia

[Kimberley]

I guess I am a little further in the spectrum because dressed I do feel Kimberley right to the core. Drab and she is in a battle with the male side.

Currently I very little since I am coming out of a purge. How far I return I cant say. I can say though that the times years back when I did go out it was totally freeing. I stayed out of crowds though. Yes, passing was critical for me then as it would be now.

Hugs

[Julia Cross]

It's different for us all. And I am sure we all go through periods of relative normailty, with less emphasis on what and how we dress to times of when we feel like going all the way. And then some of us need to feel and be feminine all the time. We are a unique part of society.

Julia

[Petrina CD]

Not to long ago my wife and I went to a motorcycle show in Long Beach , Calif., and I couldn't help but to notice that there was a guy ( biker dude) wearing a black leather pleated knee lenth skirt . Bare legs with motorclycle boots , a black t-shirt and black leather cap. I stood there and looked around to see if anybody was looking at this guy. He might as well have had pants on as no-one even noticed. This was a Harley show and full of bikers yet still no-one even looked at him.

Petrina cd

[Julia Cross]

You can buy those in Toronto for around $400. They are very cool, and most definately meant for a man!

Julia

[Sarah Rabbit]

Hi all

I feel I have the clothes right. I am finding that the more I dress and relax with myself (That is accept who I am) the more I am subconsiously displaying and using female mannerisms. ( Oh how I love a good girls talk in the kitchen as opposed to the Boy's talk out in the back yard, although I am sure they are not letting totally go when I am around)

But the make up. Oh how it pains me:cry: . The books I have borrowed mainly deal with colouring issues, which , whilst important, become useless without the knowlege of how to apply:doh: .

Hugs
Sarah

[Tommie136]

Hi Julie, A very good solution would be to wear a pair of womens jeans, a nice turtle neck top, and a pair of womens athletic shoes. You can get these in styles that is very hard to tell they are not men's clothes and shoes. You get the softer fabrics of womens clothes and shoes, and the satisfaction of knowing you are dressed completely in womens clothes.

[S. Lisa Smith]

Whereas I agree with most all of the above statements and points of view, I present as female when dressed primarily because I really enjoy presenting as female. I like "having" breasts. I like long hair styled in a feminine way. And I very much enjoy the feeling I get of "being" a woman. Therefore, when I dress, I want to look and feel as much like a genetic female as I can. like it. That's more why I present as female. It's because I like it.

I feel the same way. Also when I dress, I want to be one of the girls. I have always enjoyed the company of women and I just want to be like them and fit in.

[Butterfly Bill]

This is the real me:
I've got things in patterns not unlike that top, but it is not something that I would wear because of the elastic and high waist that are definitely designed to go over boobs. I won't wear an empire style dress for the same reasons. And a strapless evening gown, forget it. I like things that lay well over my pectoral muscles, like princess seams.

[linnea]

Oh my. This has been a really enlightening discussion. I don't have much to add but agreement with several of the writers regarding my own perspective. When I am able to dress fully--fairly infrequently because of my circumstances with family and job--, I am Linnea (my feminine self). I enjoy the look and feel of my feminine clothing; I relish the sensations of looking and feeling like a woman, even if it is a pretense or a mask. It is comparable to my experiences as an actor when I take on the character that I am playing. For short periods of time, I AM that character and I behave and react as that character would, should, etc.
I would love to have genetic women friends who would accept me in my feminine role. They may be out there; I just haven't found them. If and when I do, I will try to express my femininity as authentically as I can and enjoy their company as a woman, as Linnea.
In addition, I enjoy wearing panties, stockings, panty girdles, a bra sometimes if the outerwear will cover it sufficiently, and a cami underneath my male clothing. When I do that, I am not Linnea but a man who enjoys the feel of women's clothing.
Linnea