Your perceptions of what is female privilege

[Ezekiel]

This post poses a question from the responses I've seen from some at the "Male Privilege" thread started by JenniferYager.

Okay so, since some people here believe there is a big female privilege that is supossed to be a counter balance to male privilege, and some seem to think all this whole feminist claim that sexism is still at large is false, and go as far as denying the established patriarchy, I'd like to know exactly what do you understand for female privilege.

It'd be interesting to see your opinions on the matter and what makes you think there isn't machism / sexism anymore, so please list down some subjects that you think are female privilege.

Please don't post that your life wasn't any privileged or things like that, we are not discussing personal specific stories here, just a list of what you perceive as female privilege and explain why on each point.

Thanks in advance...

[pamela7]

1. young child playgroups here in the uk, as a male i was made distinctly unwelcome
2. female-only clubs and services (we're not really allowed male-only nowadays but it seems to be fine for female ones) e.g. women-only gyms, nike about to open a women-only store in the uk
3. eye to eye casual contact and smile woman-to-woman, definitely not allowed male-to-female with partners there
4. certain fundraising events, women-only taxi firms

there's more

[Amy Fakley]

Interesting thread idea!

The concept of privilege also encapsulates motivation and point of view. What I mean by that, is this. Your perception of privilege is biased by what it is you want, and what it is you perceive as standing between you and that thing (and the ease with which you perceive others attaining it).

Here's a very basic example. As a genetic male, it is my "privilege" to buy and wear jockey shorts (i.e. "Tighty Whities"), with absoloutely zero question within my culture. However, as an MtF transgender person, this is not actually something I want. So from my perspective, that's doesnt seem like "privelege". From the perspective of some of our FtM brothers, that probably seems very much like privelege.

So ....I forsee post after post in the thread detailing all the things that women generally have access to in our culture that men do not. Girls aren't expected to excel in physically demanding tasks, girls get a pass to show all sorts of emotions that men are just about universally shamed for even hinting at, women get all sorts of doors opened based entirely on looks, yadda yadda yadda.

And it's all true, but it's only "privelege" if you wanted that in the first place. Many of us do. Many genetic women really really do not.

About the only area where that isn't true is money, because everyone wants it pretty much. Because of that, it's one of the only objective measures of privelege we have. In that respect, the men are undoubtedly way ahead.

[JenniferYager]

-Women aren't registered for the draft. They aren't expected to go to war. Dying for your country remains an almost exclusively male club.

-There are female quotas for universities, despite the fact that more females attend college than males since at least 2003 (http://www.nber.org/digest/jan07/w12139.html). The only male quotas I've ever seen are for nursing.

-Females get priority in child visitation rights during a divorce. http://www.divorcenet.com/resources/divorce/for-men/divorce-for-men-why-women-get-child-custody-over-80-time

-Multiple social constructs favor females. For example, the house is spoken of as a female domain, and at best men get a "men's room" (typically a non-air conditioned garage) to pursue any passions they may have.

-The whole 77 cents on a dollar thing is false, but it's apparently OK to continue to lie to people about it. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/04/09/president-obamas-persistent-77-cent-claim-on-the-wage-gap-gets-a-new-pinocchio-rating/

-Women can choose to stay at home or pursue a career, or both! It's all socially acceptable. Men are expected to have employment, being unemployed as a male is viewed much more negatively than for females.

I could go on and on. The point is not that one side has it worse than another. Or rather, MY point is not that one is worse/better than another. My point is that to throw rocks and say "males have it great all the time" is to take a very unfair view on life. Everyone gets advantages and disadvantages. Some of these you are born into, but most of them you make over your life. Females can be successful at almost anything in America, and the same goes for males. Yet when we say that there is bias and then take steps to cancel the bias, we destroy the achievements of both people. Would you want someone to come up to you and say "The only reason you're successful is because you were born into it?" That is VERY offensive to me. I would also be offended if someone told me "The only reason you're successful is because we put laws in place that give you priority over others." That diminishes my achievements by saying I wasn't good enough to do it on my own.

Now, should laws apply equally? Absolutely! Everyone deserves to be treated like a human being and we should catch ourselves before judging others based on chromosomes, skin color, religion, etc. That judgement goes both ways. I'm all about stamping out problems where people are being discriminated against. But the reverse is true too. Don't automatically judge me because I'm a white male, just as I won't judge someone because they are a black female. It's a two-way street.

<soap box>
The reverse part is what irks most people. I don't like seeing my female friends and co-workers discriminated against because they are women. It sickens me, and I (and plenty of others) do what we can to stop it. But when I do that and then later someone tells me I'm born with all sorts of privilege, it grinds on me. If you're going to imply I'm somehow no better than a wife beating drunk, then don't be surprised when I get offended.

</soap box>

[Lorileah]

Oh boy this is going to be fun.

Pendulums do swing. When a group gains rights, the other group screams foul. I really kinda doubt that if Nike opened a "men's" store it would be seen as discrimination. We have those here, men's stores, big men's stores, male athletic clubs. They just have to be balanced with women's IF they are somehow supported or subsidized by the government. You can have an all male gym, in fact they do. If you succeed, great. Maybe different across the pond.

I can't wait to see what men think women get that they don't


The pay scale thing, Wash post has some issues. It isn't all that well respected. I found two articles that disagree http://www.iwpr.org/initiatives/pay-equity-and-discrimination and http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap. So it depends on your oxen.

The draft went away years ago and if it was to be reinstated women would likely be equal Quotas for universities are under Title IX...it says there must be EQUAL access. It doesn't say more. When the applications to a school are 90% women , the men get the same courtesy. The staying at home thing? Really? I find that insulting since the workforce is about 50-50 now and I KNOW men who stay home and haven't lost any respect.

[AlyssaS]

The biggest advantages women have but generally don't acknowledge in my experience:

1. Automatic custody of children in divorce proceedings in almost 100% of situations
2. Women aged 65 live on average until 86.6. Men live until 84.3. So women live about 10% longer, and therefore collect 10% more in SS benefits, but men do not get a lower tax rate to compensate.
3. Products that would cost women more (health insurance, financial annuities) are generally illegal to rate by gender; products that cost men more (life insurance, car insurance) are generally legal to rate by gender.

[Lorileah]

as with any argument, there needs to be definition so
Privilege : a right or benefit that is given to some people and not to others

Living longer is not a privilege...it is a fact. Paying more or less is not a Privilege, it is based on actuarial statistics. Insurance companies aren't in the business to give special rights to people, they set that on making money. That's social security, you pay in, you get back. In the 1940s men and women died younger, thus one argument why social security now needs to be revamped. You pay X and on average live Y you get that percentage. It's done by magic computers in big sky scarpers.
Car insurance...who has more accidents and it's not by privilege? Life insurance...who has more heart attacks and strokes or fall off cliffs retrieving a Frisbee? Taxes are (or should be based on income, not how long you'll live) so if women make more, they get taxed equally to men.

The custody thing, I agree there is some societal leaning toward mothers but there is also a great weight on how many men WANT full time custody and the burden that goes with it. So I'll accept the custody part in places where law hasn't balanced things. Oh and almotst 100% is false

[Alice Torn]

My first girlfriend ended her life at age 21. But, i have had four or five men I know, end their lives. Women have an advantage over men, socially. Far fewer women are trouble loners. Men also need women , far more than women need men. I went to singles dances for ten years, from age 46, to age 56. I cannot count the number of divorced women, who said, they are finished with men, who need them? I have met many in church, and 12 step groups, who echo the same sentiments. I have know loner men, who i believe died form lonliness and lack of love and connection. I struggle with that, too, accutely. I heard a commercial for a womens conference. " What do women want? More choices"! No freakin nation int earth history, has ever offered women more choices than America, in the past 50 years. However, the stresses of being breadwinner, mom, wife, etc, is taking a bit toll on women, too.

[Adriana Moretti]

whats up with 'Ladies Night" ?? ....

[Kelsey21]

1. When she "shuts you down".
Would that be a privilege? Or simply just a power. Nonetheless, after years of personal research and listening to men worldwide, this one could just simply be a fact :)

[Greenie]

I think that the point of many posts in the other thread, were to argue whether or not male privilege even exists.

Anyone who posted that it does not, cannot then come in here and talk about how female privilege does. If one exists, obviously so does the other.

I do find it interesting what some of you consider female privileges that I HATE about being a woman. Always perspective though. Someone did say it right, if you don't "want" that privilege it could be considered an oppression.

For example, I have seen the example of Physical prowess in both this thread and others. I hate that people assume that I am weak and cannot excel at physical activities. So it is interesting to me the perspective some of you have on that. I love to excel at physical activities, and just competed in a a 25 military style obstacle race. I want to be fierce, and respected for what I can do with my body that is not "visual".

things like women only gyms and clubs were created out of a need for the services. Many women get sexually harassed at gyms, and Muslim women cannot exercise with men, its against their religion. I also don't see the being emotional at all times, but I was written up when I cried at work, and haven't done it since. So.... That depends on the environment. We definitely can share our feeling more.

Things that I can see the argument for..
Affirmative action: Its not a bonus to me to be a woman in men dominated fields. It would work even more to my advantage if I was a woman of color.
I can wear whatever clothes I want within reason and not have my gender questioned. However my sexuality would be in question if I dressed more like a "man"
If Lucas and I got divorced, it would be easier for me to keep the kids, house, and dog.

Also, can we try to be respectful here of women. Saying things like "Its apparently okay to lie about 77 cents", seems really aggressive to me, when in the end it depends on what source you are using for your facts. I think we can treat each other like adults here can't we?

And Kelsey. If "when she shuts you down" is regarding sex, I am going to nip that right now, EVERYONE ALWAYS HAS THE RIGHT TO CONSENT. No means no. Shutting you down sexually means no. Its not a power thing, its not a privilege thing. Its a consent thing. No one ever owes anyone sex ever. Jokes about consent are not funny. So I hope that you meant something else.

[flatlander_48]

This is all sort of funny because NOTHING that has been mentioned is going to get you into the Boardroom...

DeeAnn

[HarleyQuinn]

As a female myself I've never really thought about it. I disagree with a lot of what people think are privileges of women. Like dressing in whatever we want. True we can wear clothing of both genders and are less likely to be called out and judged for it, but we still get that and we have the whole **** shaming thing surrounding what we wear. We get called b****y for being assertive and blamed for meekness, but i think that has more to do with how we blame people being stepped on as a society (it happens to men who are "meek" too).

Off the top of my head:

The suicide example I know is heartfelt, but the mortality rate for men is partly because they tend to choose more lethal methods which results in more completed suicides while women tend to have fewer completed suicides and a higher attempt rate due to less lethal methods. The screening for suicide is definitely not sufficient to help older men, and that's an area that needs improvement and is receiving attention as we speak.

Another big difference I think is also valid surrounds victimization and sexual abuse. Males are taken less seriously when reporting domestic abuse, rape, stalking, etc. As a society we don't handle these situations well to start, but men get less help here.

These are disparities not privileges.



I do find it interesting what some of you consider female privileges that I HATE about being a woman. Always perspective though. Someone did say it right, if you don't "want" that privilege it could be considered an oppression.

^ I agree here 100%. I was a comic book and video games girl as a kid and was expected to like the "girly" things. It caused a lot of trouble. People got offended because an 8 year old didn't want to pretend to change diapers. And I was in to a relatively neutral thing there, so I can only imagine how hurtful it is for a male child to be scolded for wanting to play with a doll or wear clothes that aren't stereo typically male. As an adult I'm rarely questioned about this because I'm an adult... who reads comics and plays video games... but it's my money lol. But i still get comments for not fulfilling the ideal female image. I wear dresses and combat boots with no makeup 90% of the time that I'm not in scrubs or the gym. Ballerina flats when I have to be more professional. I get pushed to wear heels (ouch) and people will openly ask me why I don't wear make up or tell me I'd be prettier with it (thanks... this is my face. Plus I get zits with make-up and would rather sleep the extra half hour and save some money). It comes off as a requirement imposed by society, not a privilege on my end. And that applies both ways. Men certainly have those hurdles to face as well.

[grace7777]

-There are female quotas for universities, despite the fact that more females attend college than males since at least 2003 (http://www.nber.org/digest/jan07/w12139.html). The only male quotas I've ever seen are for nursing.



From the article I see no evidence that there are female quota's for admission to universities. From reading the article it seems that girls spend more time on homework and have less behavioral problems. So girls are more dedicated in school and have less behavioral problems, so it only stands to reason they would have a higher percentage of admissions to college than boys. This is not priviledge, it is doing what it takes to get to college. If boys spend more time on homework and do not cause behavioral problems then they are more likely to go to college too.

[Yinlingyen]

Well I have always believed that women have it easy in many ways, but my views may be tainted and one dimensional.
For example, from where I live (in a city with long hot summers) women are allowed to wear thin-light clothing and be accepted into clubs and restaurants (you get the idea), while as a guy I am forced to read the policy "shirts/ties/jackets" required. As a women turning up in a pair of sexy sandals will only turn heads and as a guy I will only be turned away!!!!
Where is the fairness?

[grace7777]

It seems to me that very few restaurants have much of a dress code at all anymore. Most of the restaurants that do have a "shirts/ties/jackets" required are in private clubs from my observation. Now some of the club's do allow women to get in wearing thin-light clothing, but it is usually sexy looking women, and the club is trying to attract men with money, so for the club it is about the bottom line. My feeling is a woman without sex appeal will not get the same treatment as a woman with sex appeal.

[kimdl93]

My perception is that presumptions about male or female 'privilege' simply are an expression of each individual's personal prejudices and fantasies. My observation is that the vast majority of humanity (male or female) enjoy damned few, if any privileges. In reality, their waking moments are a constant struggle to survive, rarely allowing even a few moments of simple pleasure or satisfaction. Their dreams may offer respite for a few fleeting moments each night, or may be nightmarish reflections of their daily fears and frustrations.

[ReineD]

I posted a link to this list in another thread. I thought some of the items on the list were a bit of a stretch and/or not really applicable any more, so I'm not posting them here. But, you are free to look them up.

I want to note that many of the items below portray women in subordinate roles, which I assume many members here would think is desirable, hence a "privilege". But, many women do NOT want to place themselves in subordinate roles any more, they want and deserve an equal status, and so they might not think the items below are advantageous or desirable ... except the ability to be warm and empathetic. But then, men can also exude warmth and empathy if they want to, without any loss of esteem from others.

So for the people who envy the more subordinate aspect of being a woman, I'm sure you'll agree with the items below. :)




1) People are likely to assume I am a warm and empathetic person.

2) People are likely to assist me when I must perform a physically arduous task.

3) If my car breaks down or I am otherwise in distress, people will be more likely to stop and help me.

4) If I am being physically assaulted, no matter the gender of my assailant, it is more likely that passersby will intervene.

5) People are likely to assume I am a competent parent, unless and until I prove otherwise.

6) People are more likely to respect my right to be offended by inappropriate or impolite behavior.

7) If I yell, people are not likely to believe I am going to hurt them.

10) If I work in a profession that is dominated by the opposite gender, people are likely to see it as "heroic", or a sign of social progress, rather than that I am deficient in some way.

11) If I show weakness, the first response of most people will be to console or help me, not criticize me, ignore me, or dismiss me as pathetic.

12) I am not expected to make the "first move" when meeting members of the opposite sex for the purposes of dating.

13) Members of the opposite gender are expected to make the first move; therefore, it is less likely I will be sexually rejected by those I come into close contact with in a dating context.

14) I am not expected to spend a significant portion of my yearly income on a token that accompanies a marriage proposal.

16) If I am having dinner with a member of the opposite gender in a dating context, and I do not reach for the check, people are unlikely to assume I am cheap.

17) If I am having dinner with a member of the opposite gender in a non-dating context, and I do not reach for the check, people are still unlikely to assume I am cheap.

18) If I earn less than my partner, no one will look at me funny.

19) If I earn nothing and my partner supports me, no one will look at me funny.

22) If I am skilled in activities/hobbies that are commonly attributed to the opposite gender (kick boxing, operating power tools, shingling a roof, knitting, scrap-booking, floral arranging), people will see me as admirable. No one is likely to think I am a weirdo or wonder if I'm gay.

23) If I am completing a task with a member of the opposite gender, it will be expected that they take the greater physical burden--such as carrying the heavier boxes.

24) If I cry or am hurt, men and women are unlikely to tell me to "suck it up".

25) If I choose to stay at home with my children while my partner works, people are unlikely to think I am a deadbeat, unskilled, or shirking my responsibility to my family.

31) If I am a victim of domestic violence, there are many services in my community that will help people of my gender. It is unlikely I will be denied services based on my gender.

32) If my partner physically abuses me, I will be believed by the authorities. Their belief will not depend on whether I have physical signs of injury.

33) If I physically abuse my partner, people--including the authorities and victim's services personnel--are likely to assume it was in self defence. Even if I tell them I hit first and my partner is non-violent, they are likely to wonder if my partner did something to instigate the assault, like cheating on me, yelling at me, or otherwise provoking me to lose control.

34) If I physically abuse my partner, and they reciprocate, they are as likely or more likely to be the one arrested as I am, even if my partner's reciprocation was in self-defence.

35) If my partner physically abuses me, and I reciprocate--even if I admit my reciprocation was not in self-defence but out of anger--it is unlikely that I will be arrested.

[Lorileah]

and places that require "shirt/tie/jacket" often have set rules for how women dress too...some require hosiery, all require you don't look like you are going to Buffett concert or are in a string bikini.

[grace7777]

Also, a lot of the "shirt/tie/jacket" restaurants allow women the option to wear a dressy pantsuit.

[franlee]

The one thing that jumps out to me a Privileged that fits or is note worthy in the CD world is they can dress in any clothes of male or female designation without scrutiny and even encouraged. It is not the doing it but the acceptance from the public that I consider a privilege. We have the same right just not so readily excepted. Other than this I think things are pretty much balanced out in this day and age unless you are willing to settle for less or demand more.

[Krisi]

The way the post is worded shows some definite bias so I don't expect replies will be taken seriously.

People often use terms such as "male privilege" and "female privilege" when trying to cast themselves as "victims" to explain their lack of success in life. The truth is that both sexes have (or do not have) "privilege" and it balances out pretty well in real life.

As long as a person (or a group of people) continue to paint themselves as victims and blame "privilege" (of others) for their own lack of success, they will continue to be unsuccessful in life.

[Nolacdflorida]

This is probably verging on "off topic", but how come, if an obviously female woman (GG) were to dress in a suit and tie there would not be one word said to her or one evil look given to her. It would be seen as a fashion statement or "an interesting gender translation".

But I put on a dress with stockings and heels and I am a "sicko".

I reflect this from my own perspective because I am not "passable".

[Katey888]

I do think we've strayed again into rather barmy, social structure and stereotype territory here... :Pullhair:

I think Ezekiel's right in saying that this is sexism or inverted male chauvinism rather than privilege as is... equality by any measure is a Utopian ideal for ANY aspect of modern life... good to work toward but never entirely achievable.


The biggest human privilege I can think of is female... the capability and right to bear and give life to another human being... with a little help from a guy along the way... ;)

How many men really envy that...? :thinking:

You lucky GG ladies! :cheer:

Katey x

[Katie01]

The problem with the question of male or female "privilege" is that it too easily leads to Chauvinism. There's enough divisiveness in the world.

[Ezekiel]

The way the post is worded shows some definite bias so I don't expect replies will be taken seriously.

People often use terms such as "male privilege" and "female privilege" when trying to cast themselves as "victims" to explain their lack of success in life. The truth is that both sexes have (or do not have) "privilege" and it balances out pretty well in real life.

As long as a person (or a group of people) continue to paint themselves as victims and blame "privilege" (of others) for their own lack of success, they will continue to be unsuccessful in life.

True, I don't take your opinion on this matter seriously, Krisi. Because its not serious. The way you are tying to put me down, and the entire thread itself, well, speaks a lot of how much you don't want to see that sexism is still at large on the whole planet.

So, in your opinion being successful in life is a matter of blaming others or not.

I can then assume the situation of the poor is stalled because they keep blaming the rich.

I can then assume that financial powers (multinational corporations, banks, etc. Wall Street for an example you'll understand) do not abuse citizens their money and rights to make themselves even richer and in power, and it is this way because citizens who see this blame them and thus, their lifes are not as successful for this very reason.

Yes sure, okay...

How do you expect me to take your words seriously, when its obvious rights are gained by pointing out abuses in society, and identifying who is commiting them is the VERY FIRST step?

So in your criteria, Southern Europe is poor because they blame Angela Merkel, right?

An example you'll understand more... Cuba must be poor because they blame the US, and not because they have been blockaded for years and years by the US.

Come on... you can't be really saying this.

If females never ever pointed out sexism and fought against it, they would still be treated as livestock.

Oh and by the way, don't tell me I'm putting you down because I'm not. On the other hand, your post did put down me and this entire thread as I remarked in first paragraph...

[Robin414]

The one thing that jumps out to me a Privileged that fits or is note worthy in the CD world is they can dress in any clothes of male or female designation without scrutiny and even encouraged. It is not the doing it but the acceptance from the public that I consider a privilege. We have the same right just not so readily accepted

That one is on the top of my list I think, does it imply (as many have suggested here AND elsewhere) that men behaving as women is 'downgrading' but women behaving as men is 'upgrading'? Are 'we' not 'there' yet, maybe not? 😐

[Lorileah]

The clothing "privilege" card. Gotta love it. So it's a privilege to wear a suit and tie OR a dress?

No one except your fear of society has said you can't do the same. 70 years ago, women stood up and fought the males to gain a "privilege" man gave up 300 years ago. It always amazes me when people here complain about clothing rights and then don't DO anything about it. Kristi is correct, you make yourselves victims. It's not a female privilege to wear slacks or ties or jockeys....it is what they do. They worked for that.

Come on, gimme something I can use so I can say "I'm transitioning because as a woman I can...." . Because honestly I don't see any privilege now.

Someone mentioned "Women's nights" which is really a marketing ploy to increase business...not female business MAN'S business because men come to meet or see women. Nice privilege, to be ogled and ht on. If a bar had men's night would you go? And why? Cheaper booze?

Most of what would have been considered women's privilege has gone away, because women didn't want it. They wanted equal not instead of. Women didn't have a vote one day to say...let's take away pants from men. No they were doing jobs that required pants or they were doing other things that skirts just didn't quite work well. Privilege is where you get something better for no reason except some attribute (usually physical) you have. Maybe female privilege is that they spend a lot less time fretting over things and they do something about it


Oh and the "acceptance" thing 50% of the world are men, if you want acceptance, you could start there. 99% of your male cohorts won't agree that dresses are a privilege

[ReineD]

Someone mentioned "Women's nights" which is really a marketing ploy to increase business...not female business MAN'S business because men come to meet or see women. Nice privilege, to be ogled and ht on.

It's nice for people who do want to be ogled and hit on. :)

[Eryn]

At the Magic Castle there is a small theater for close-up magic. It has 22 seats and room for another eight people to stand at the ends of each row. Several times when I have been one of the last to enter the room all the seats were filled and so I walked to one of the standing position. Every time I've been in that situation a gentleman has stood and graciously offered me his seat.

Female Privilege, old style! :)

[sometimes_miss]

dressing in whatever we want. True we can wear clothing of both genders and are less likely to be called out and judged for it, but we still get that and we have the whole **** shaming thing surrounding what we wear.
And men get shamed if we aren't making as much money as others think we should. Like we're lazy or something just because we haven't gotten promoted. Newsflash; there aren't enough management positions for everyone to get promoted. We should be valued because we do a job and do it well. But women don't see it that way, we need to be 'ambitious' and 'get ahead' in the world be be considered desirable. So, women are valued for looks, men, for assets. Nothing new there. But the disparity of crossing the gender lines we know is way worse for any male.

We get called b****y for being assertive and blamed for meekness, but i think that has more to do with how we blame people being stepped on as a society (it happens to men who are "meek" too)
Yup. A man MUST fight every challenge or he's a wimp/pu$$y/chicken etc., no matter if we're guaranteed to lose or die, we're still expected to fight every single time (and every crossdresser is considered a potential coward because it's assumed we want to take the submissive female role sexually therefore we might be submissive in a confrontation, so we're automatically put into the 'undesirable' group). Lose lose situation. But we're stuck with it. Women always say that psychological pain of being insulted is way worse than physical of being beaten. Well, most of you haven't been on the side of being beaten up regularly. Boys are taught to fight back no matter if the end result is already known that we will lose and be badly hurt....and then go back and fight again the next day. For, not all bullies follow the adults idea that they must respect a lesser male if he fights back. Lots of them just enjoy beating us up again and again. Eventually we just accept being hit, and/or try our best to avoid any place where we might be caught by the bully. Another no win situation that girls rarely face. As far as psychological bullying? Try being a boy who won't fight and being known as a sissy/pansy/pu$$y/wu$$y/chicken and referred to or even called that by most everyone in the school. See how that compares to a girl being left out of a popular clique. Both result in social isolation. But the former also results in physical punishment as well.

The suicide example I know is heartfelt, but the mortality rate for men is partly because they tend to choose more lethal methods which results in more completed suicides while women tend to have fewer completed suicides and a higher attempt rate due to less lethal methods.
Partly, but mostly because men don't use attempting suicide as a cry for help. We just do it. We're not allowed to ask for help, again, because that would make us be seen as weak. And men are not allowed to be weak. We must be strong, or die. So, we die.

The screening for suicide is definitely not sufficient to help older men
Or younger men, or teen males. It's hard to 'screen' for suicide. Most men simply won't admit to it even if they're considering it. Almost always, the first clue anyone sees, is when someone finds us dead.

Another big difference I think is also valid surrounds victimization and sexual abuse. Males are taken less seriously when reporting domestic abuse, rape, stalking, etc. As a society we don't handle these situations well to start, but men get less help here.
MAY GET LESS HELP???? We don't get help at all. People MIGHT feel sorry for us, but also lose all respect for us as well. It's another lose lose situation for men. As we're supposed to be responsible for ourselves, if we're taken advantage of in any way, at any age, it's usually taken as an indication of bad judgement or weakness, so it's assumed to be our fault. When I was a kid, I was molested for many years; you can't imagine how many people suggest that either I must have liked it to let it go on that long, or that I should have either: 1. fought the guy molesting me (yeah, right, he was almost 7 years older than me), or 2. Report it to my parents/teachers/police. They conveniently forget that as a kid most have already been punished for things we weren't responsible for, so saying anything would be like admitting I had something to do with it and so we fear being punished again, so we just keep quiet. Reporting it to anyone later on as an adult is also a lose lose situation. One, any conviction is unlikely because they're going to want to know why I waited so long (just look at how all the Cosby complainents were put therough the ringer as if it was their fault at first), and two, again it's admitting to allowing something like that to happen which everyone sees as a weakness on our part. Women abhor weak men. Sure, some of you may feel sorry for us, but any chance of sexual attraction to us is forever gone. So there's no up side to telling about it. And I don't see that changing any time soon. While women, on the other hand, are also felt sorry for, but it doesn't keep men from being attracted to you. Some few will see a sexually molested/assaulted female as 'damaged goods', but most men don't. You still have a chance at another relationship. We have, well, nothing.

Want more? Besides all the aforementioned items, and those that you can look up on websites mentioned, here's a few I didn't mention in the other thread.
Boys are expected to just know how to do social things, and just know about sex. Nobody tells us anything. We're supposed to know how to ask you out, how to find a good restaurant, which movie/play/ show is good, which wines are good, how much to tip and who to tip, not to mention, if the date doesn't go well, we're the ones automatically at fault. We're supposed to know how to lead in dancing, again supposedly by some type of divine intervention, because we have nobody to tell us, and again, ask some guys how they'd feel about asking how to dance, and who could we possibly ask? I asked my older sister, and was made fun of it for years. At 25, I paid to go to a dancing studio to learn. But as a teen, there was simply no way. And if you didn't know, everybody made fun of us. So it's no wonder at all why boys don't want to dance. If we don't know, we look stupid and everybod makes fun of us. If we do, then all the boys poke fun at us and ask us if we're going to be wearing a tutu soon. No win situation. Same with sex; we're just supposed to know when you're ready to kiss, when we can touch you where, when you're ready to move to the next phase of sex, how to position ourselves and you, how and when to use condoms (and which condoms to buy but that's another whole horror story there are no 'small' or 'medium' condoms (as if anyone would dare be caught having one of either of those sizes EVER, just huge, jumbo and super collosal), because women don't want to be asked anything during a romantic episode. You want us to 'just know'. As if we have ESP or something. Then if the sex doesn't go well, again we're automatically at fault. If a guy overhears a woman complaining that her boyfriend is bad in bed, the guy thinks, 'well, I could certainly satisfy her, her boyfriend must be a jerk'. And her girlfriend will think, 'boy, her boyfriend was sure insensitive, he didn't do anything right'. It's never the girl's fault in sex, ever. You don't have to be good, you just have to be there. And there's simply no female shame equivalent to erectile dysfunction; if you're not excited enough, again, it's always presumed to be our fault. And If we can't 'perform', well, it's automatically assumed again that there must be something wrong with us.
And while there are plenty of men who gladly date slender women even to the point of being flat chested, there are no women who will openly admit to wanting a guy with a tiny penis. So there are lots of very nice men with good jobs, and good manners, out there who don't even ask for dates. They just give up.
Oh and we're also held responsible for all women's safety, never the other way around; if we see a woman being attacked, we're expected to intervene even if it's likely that we'll get killed. You face no such obligation. Not to mention the 'women and children first' in ANY life threatening situation. Hostages? Let the women and children go. Fire? Women and children out first. That type of thing just goes on, and on, and on. If you're a woman, it's often thought that men get a free pass at some things. This is just to remind you that you also get a free pass at a lot of things. You just don't notice it, because you're told from the day you're born that in all those situations men should defer to you just because it's the right thing to do. Really? Who made up that rule? Nobody, that's who. Historically, a society needed more women than men, because one man could impregnate 100 women and you get 100 babies. But one woman and 100 men only give you one baby to keep the society going. That situation is long gone, but the premise is still supported by women today, and probably always will be, because nobody is willing to give up a great advantage 'just because it's fair'. Women aren't any more likely to do that either.
Then you're also taught that a man should always give up his seat in public for a woman as well, because again, you're taught that 'it's the right thing to do'.

The above are just some things that I think were left out in previous posts here and/or the other privilege thread.

[Marcelle]

Hi Ezekiel,

I am going to take a different approach to answering your question and flavor my impression of "female privilege" in comparison to what I perceive (folks noticed "I perceive") as "male privilege". To be honest it is all in how one defines privilege IMHO. If you perceive something as unfair/unjust then you are likely to perceive it as a privilege. For example if you think "women can wear pants and nobody says anything but heaven forbid if I wear a skirt" then you will see that as a privilege denied you. However, is it really a privilege denied? Men can wear skirts, dresses, breast forms or whatever and while some may think it is strange, some may shake their heads . . . many folks her do this everyday and society has not collapse or enforced laws which says "men shall not". Yes, I know the counter argument is "Well if I wear a dress to work I will be fired or loose my job but a woman can wear a suit and no issues". Okay, that may hold a kernel of truth depending on the business but remember the woman is not wearing a man's suit but a woman's suit. This is fashion folks and women have managed to take male fashion and make it their own. If you truly want to have the right to wear a dress to work, then talk to your HR folks and see where they stand . . . you never know, or start a new fashion craze, claim Scottish heritage and wear a kilt. I am not being facetious before anyone takes offence (and sorry if I have offended you) but IMHO the clothing card is a red herring particular to our demographic . . . men who enjoying wearing women's clothing and this makes gender specific clothing choice a TG rights thing not a female privilege. I would pose this question to those who think this way. If TG rights were engrained in such a way that you could wear stereotypical women's clothing (dresses, skirts, whatever) anywhere and nobody could fire you or discriminate against you, would you? If your answer is "yes" then the only way to achieve this is through educating the masses that being TG is okay and that will take time. However it is not a female privilege IMHO.

So to me, privilege in this context is something endemic which gives one group an advantage over the other such that they enjoy a better existence and the other group either cannot attain or has to fight tooth and nail to do so. In this instance I cannot see female privilege. Again, people are making this personal "I never got to do this or that while growing up".

While women may have "women's only gyms" it is a Reine indicated for a specific reason not a privilege . . . it is not a privilege to have men leer at you while you try to work out . . . be honest, we have all done it. If men didn't do this then chances are it would not be an issue. WRT to women getting custody easier . . . yes it is probable courts all things equal the courts will grant custody to the mother but there is normally a shared custody agreement in place it is not a matter of "you are the mom so you make all the rules when it comes to the father seeing the children". Normally if one parent is granted limited or no custodial rights . . . there is a reason. Woman won't get drafted . . . I really cannot speak to that as we don't have the draft in Canada but women have been in combat roles, have gone to war and died along side their brothers in arms here in Canada.

I am sorry, I just don't see the same type of privilege examples comparative to things that make it easier to be a guy and again I am not saying men have everything handed to them on a silver platter or don't work hard. However, we (yes not all) get a certain amount of instant respect in the workplace (yes it is job dependent) that women have to work twice as hard for. I used an example on another thread in that a woman who was a very good soldier and physically strong on a training course was seen as "Wow, she's pretty strong for a girl" even though she was stronger then quite a few male candidates. Nobody on the training cadre remarked "Wow, he's pretty strong for a guy". We can beat the comparative stories to death, glass ceilings, wage inequities, credibility but again IMHO there is no comparison of perks that women get which can be compared to what men get, again not personal just a societal fact. Having someone hold the door open for you, getting to wear a dress, having a ladies night, and so on are not privileges which disadvantage one group (men) over another group (women) they are just societal niceties left over from a bygone era which do not give women a financial or societal advantage. Heck, I can pee standing up should I choose but it is not a privilege it is just a matter of anatomy. :)

Cheers

Isha

[grace7777]

But women don't see it that way, we need to be 'ambitious' and 'get ahead' in the world be be considered desirable. So, women are valued for looks, men, for assets. Nothing new there.

Having worked in public accounting in the past, which I recently left, I can say that more and more women are the breadwinners in the family. Also, I do not see these guys facing any shame. I have seen many women who are attracted to losers, and personally I think what do they see in this person. Often, it seems, both men and women come up with a version of their ideal mate, but find that person does not exist. So, they end up making compramises. Kind of like buying a house or a condo.



Yup. A man MUST fight every challenge or he's a wimp/pu$$y/chicken etc., no matter if we're guaranteed to lose or die, we're still expected to fight every single time

Often times walking away is a much better option. There is no law that you have to fight every challenge. What other people think is often not important. If you see someone in danger the best idea is to call the police.

[sometimes_miss]

Having worked in public accounting in the past, which I recently left, I can say that more and more women are the breadwinners in the family. Also, I do not see these guys facing any shame.
Perhaps not to you. But most women still expect a man to make more than she does, and other men usually do as well. Unless of course, they're in the same position of having their own wife make more than they do.

I have seen many women who are attracted to losers
Women are drawn to alpha male behavior and appearances during ovulation. Later they are attracted to men who will make better fathers. There is a subliminal connection to being a 'bad boy' to alpha behavior, and some women will have their maternal instincts kick in to be interested in even the biggest loser; if she does at the right part of her hormonal cycle, that can explain the attraction. If he gets to copulate with her, post orgasm bonding hormones are released making her want to be with him, even once she knows he's a bad choice. Most people don't understand it, and just like to call it 'chemistry'. How many times have you heard a woman admit that a guy's no good for her but she says 'I know, but I love him'. Doesn't make sense to the uneducated observer, but it is a predictable behavior on the part of both people involved.


Often times walking away is a much better option. There is no law that you have to fight every challenge. What other people think is often not important. If you see someone in danger the best idea is to call the police. You don't always have the option to 'just walk away'. And if you continually back down from every type of challenge, most people will assume that there must be some valid reason why. If a woman, say, outside an ATM with her children is fighting with a man and won't relinquish her purse, and you just stand there and phone for the police, and she winds up hurt or dead, how do you think the rest of the world will think of you when the police arrive ten minutes later? As the children cry, 'He just stood there! And did nothing!' You'd really do that? You've been brought up way differently than I was.

[Krisi]

Ezekiel, you proved my point in your second post. Your thread was started not to ask a question but to push an agenda. I'm not going to waste my time replying because you have already made up your mind and simple truth and logic is obviously not going to change it.

Go put your bra on, you'll feel better.

[Ezekiel]

I am going to take a different approach to answering your question and flavor my impression of "female privilege" in comparison to what I perceive (folks noticed "I perceive") as "male privilege". To be honest it is all in how one defines privilege IMHO. If you perceive something as unfair/unjust then you are likely to perceive it as a privilege

Yes, privilege is subjective. For some people being passive, submissive, doing everything their partner demands to them, esentially being their slave, etc, might be the best. But this is not the case for majority, and people generally does not want things enforced to them. People demands equality.

When there is a big inequality, such as when people in Africa is dying of famine and people in the US or Northern Europe is not, we can say that the second are privileged.

Equality for all, is freedom for all.

It means the one who is willingly a slave to their partner will be as happy as the one who does not want this enforced to her/him.


Perhaps not to you. But most women still expect a man to make more than she does, and other men usually do as well. Unless of course, they're in the same position of having their own wife make more than they do.

This must be a generational gap, because today women do not expect you to gain more then them. Heck, I'd say some of them they will even compete with you on this.


Women are drawn to alpha male behavior and appearances during ovulation. Later they are attracted to men who will make better fathers. There is a subliminal connection to being a 'bad boy' to alpha behavior, and some women will have their maternal instincts kick in to be interested in even the biggest loser; if she does at the right part of her hormonal cycle, that can explain the attraction. If he gets to copulate with her, post orgasm bonding hormones are released making her want to be with him, even once she knows he's a bad choice. Most people don't understand it, and just like to call it 'chemistry'. How many times have you heard a woman admit that a guy's no good for her but she says 'I know, but I love him'. Doesn't make sense to the uneducated observer, but it is a predictable behavior on the part of both people involved.

Well for some girls this might be the case, but certainly not for all, and probably not the majority. I don't know how old are you, but this might be another generational gap, Im not sure, but I can't relate to your experience.

Women of my generation, most I know, certainly do not seek "bad boy" behavior, and are not attracted to such types sexually. I can't really have a decent opinion on this since I really have no idea, but the people I know do not seek "alpha bad boy" types.

A good example that comes to mind, that is not my generation but worth of talking about... Check out Tokio Hotel and check out how many fans they have, and how their demography is almost all young females.

Certainly, they don't look like your typical "alpha" you are talking about. And I'm damn sure the fangirls are sexually obssesed with them.

So sure there are girls that like the bad boys, but not all of them.


Ezekiel, you proved my point in your second post. Your thread was started not to ask a question but to push an agenda. I'm not going to waste my time replying because you have already made up your mind and simple truth and logic is obviously not going to change it.

Go put your bra on, you'll feel better.

You are free to think whatever you want Krisi... I am not going to judge you. My intention with this thread is to make comparisons, to know what they exactly perceive as female privilege, and make people see that what they call female privilege is not as big as male privilege.

So yes, thats the agenda here. Voicing and pointing that there is an established inequality is the agenda.

[sometimes_miss]

I can't really have a decent opinion on this since I really have no idea
Hmmm, I guess that would explain a lot of things.

[Ezekiel]

Hmmm, I guess that would explain a lot of things.

And this remark of yours explains a whole lot more about you.

[Jill]

It's been awhile since I have been on this forum. I used to spend a lot of time here but dwindled off because it seemed like a lot of topics were just constant repeats. It's interesting because I came here today with this very topic on my mind and how it relates to my CDing. I actually came to this forum today purposely seeking this kind of topic. I have been watching youtube videos on MGTOW which stands for "men going their own way" and also videos on feminism. MGTOW is basically the idea that men are doing their own thing, pursuing the kind of life they want without the influence of females in their life. I find myself wanting to have less and less to do with women, feeling demonized as a male. Male shame has become abundant, we are not allowed to have issues, rights or a voice without male shaming happening. It has made me wonder, on a much deeper level if my CDing is far more deep rooted than I previously believed. I have also noticed that it seems like CDing and young men emulating females is exploding. I'm also reflecting on how drastically different the CDing scene is from 12 - 15 years ago and how rapidly culture seems to be shifting overall because of how fast technology is advancing. I know for me, CDing is one way that I go my own way. And in a sense, seems to be swapping or substituting femininity in my life. I don't want to ask a girl to put on a cute dress and some heels in fear that she will label me as a pervert and potential rapist.

Are women privileged? Very much so. In the same way they have free reign of both closets, she has free reign in societies proverbial closets, she can have it anyway that she wants while men cannot. I see these videos of females saying they are oppressed while broadcasting on their $2,000 mac computers and their princess canopy bed in the background. I watched a video where Emma Watson claimed that because women aren't "encouraged enough" to get a higher degree, it equates to oppression. Many US universities are reporting that as much as 2/3's of their student body is female and yet the feminists still hold rallies about oppression on the same campuses. Feminists want all the perks and none of the draw backs when it comes to "equality." When they demand that all females are required to register for the selective services at age 18, I'll be more likely to support them. And as a side note, men are drastically more likely (especially crossdressing ones) to be accosted and victimized by a stranger than a woman. The rates of physical violence against males is astronomically higher than females but I don't hear them screaming about creating equality in that area. Personally, I am done with females getting treated like princesses and then complaining about being oppressed. Ultimately, victim stances don't empower anybody. I don't feel safe walking down certain streets either, I can either complain about it or I can get a stun gun and learn to defend myself.

While considering female privilege, I wonder if more and more young men are emulating females in order to regain power? I wonder if they are doing it more and more to escape the demonized role that men have acquired? Not that I have issue with it, of course; It's just becoming a fascinating dynamic for me to watch unfold. Perhaps in a sense, by putting on makeup, a dress and high heels, males are trying to communicate, hey don't hate me, I'm one of you. Are more and more younger males CDing as a way to wave the white flag? "Don't shoot, I'm one of you."

Personally, I don't like black and white, I don't like rigid roles and so I support those that want to express their femininity in this way, I do it and I love it. And on the topic of MGTOW, I like to encourage men to go their own way, whatever that looks like. I think we need to give women the gift of missing us since I keep hearing feminists say that we are obsolete and expendable. Put on a dress and ride a motorcycle. Whether you identify with male ore female, you have a voice, don't be ashamed of it. And lastly, I want to encourage young males to not cave into the pressure of marriage. You gain nothing and could potentially lose everything.

[grace7777]

You don't always have the option to 'just walk away'. And if you continually back down from every type of challenge, most people will assume that there must be some valid reason why. If a woman, say, outside an ATM with her children is fighting with a man and won't relinquish her purse, and you just stand there and phone for the police, and she winds up hurt or dead, how do you think the rest of the world will think of you when the police arrive ten minutes later? As the children cry, 'He just stood there! And did nothing!' You'd really do that? You've been brought up way differently than I was.

There are times that you are attacked and there is no choice but to fight, so you defend yourself to the best of your ability. Other than that, most situations can be defused or deescalated. Female police officers, studies have shown are less likely to be involved in fights with suspect than male officers because they seek to deescalate the situation. It is male ego that causes a lot of problems and makes situations worse than they needed to be.

In your situation if a woman is attacked at an atm machine with her children around, what do you do. The attacker is a person who needs to be off the streets and in jail. I will do what I can to get them there. By the way, calling the police is doing something. A lot of people, both male and female would do absolutely nothing. Also if possible I get a description of him and if possible with my cell phone get a picture. These steps can help the police capture the attacker and get a conviction, so this person stays in Jail. Also, I am not a good fighter. Police departments around the country I am sure would support my actions. Every situation is different, so what I do depends on the situation and how I assess it. My ultimate goal in the situation is the safety of the victim.

[sometimes_miss]

There are times that you are attacked and there is no choice but to fight, so you defend yourself to the best of your ability.
Exactly what I wrote.

Other than that, most situations can be defused or deescalated.
I didn't refer to those situations.

Female police officers, studies have shown are less likely to be involved in fights with suspect than male officers because they seek to deescalate the situation.
Perhaps also because their male partner steps in as soon as it appears there's going to be an altercation? It's a natural response.

It is male ego that causes a lot of problems and makes situations worse than they needed to be.
With that I agree.


The attacker is a person who needs to be off the streets and in jail. I will do what I can to get them there.
Yup. You'll do it from a distance. Because it's safe there. You can still run away faster. And, after she's dead they MIGHT put him away if they ever catch him, because you'll give them an accurate description, standing out of the way of any danger.

A lot of people, both male and female would do absolutely nothing.
And you're saying that's the right thing to do: Nothing. And that's what's wrong with this country; nobody wants to help anyone else. They expect somebody else to do it.

Also if possible I get a description of him and if possible with my cell phone get a picture. These steps can help the police capture the attacker and get a conviction, so this person stays in Jail.
Right, after she's dead. That way you can hopefully get a 3 year sentence as her kid loses her mom.

Also, I am not a good fighter. Police departments around the country I am sure would support my actions.
Of course. Just ask Bernard Goetz. The police policy is to do nothing and they will file a report. They don't want citizens doing anything. That doesn't make it right.

My ultimate goal in the situation is the safety of the victim.
No, your ultimate goal appears to be the safety of yourself. Because every hit that attacker makes on her could be the one that kills her, and you don't intend on even trying to stop it.
So lets change the scenario a bit; make it a bit more personal. It's your MOM at the ATM getting beaten by a mugger. Still going to stand at a distance and just watch? That story will go over very well at the funeral. 'I was watching at a safe distance while he killed mom, but I called the police and gave them a good description while he was doing it'. I'm sure your family would be proud of you for not getting involved.

[ReineD]

While women may have "women's only gyms" it is a Reine indicated for a specific reason not a privilege . . . it is not a privilege to have men leer at you while you try to work out . . . be honest, we have all done it. If men didn't do this then chances are it would not be an issue.

This touches on something that is fundamental IMO.

I don't think that most men will "leer" in a pervy sense, but men are most definitely attracted to a woman's body and you can't always hide the interest or the attraction. The sex drive is a powerful thing indeed (although it will not drive the majority of men in our culture to rape), and so it makes sense to have separate changing rooms in places where people who are not related congregate, like gyms. I think of it as a precautionary measure, to remove any temptation lest it get out of hand, although it might only go out of hand with a very small subset of men. In the middle east they take it much, much further by hiding women behind burkas at all times in public, but it's really the same thing. It basically works like:


Male is physically attracted to female --> He makes a move (that is deemed culturally acceptable) --> This sets of the female's attraction to the male (if she finds him attractive) ---> And if all systems are go, they have at it.


Trouble is, when all systems are NOT go (i.e. people are married, or a union is not advantageous socio-ecolomically), then people can potentially get into trouble if everyone is walking around naked. :)



But the bottom line is, if men (and any male of any other species) didn't have that drive, the species would not survive. It just seems weird to me that some members define the very natural and evolutionary dynamics between testosterone-driven-males who are attracted to estrogen-driven-females, as some type of "female privilege" that women lord over men. It simply is what it is at a basic, biological level and I think that men who see it as a female privilege do so because THEY want the female's sexual role. THEY see it as something unattainable and so they resent it? I should think that most men do not see a woman's sexual attractiveness as a privilege. It's just biology, something that he is attracted to and because of this, he might be willing to go through some hoops to get what he wants, depending on the situation. lol

[Ezekiel]

I think that men who see it as a female privilege do so because THEY want the female's sexual role. THEY see it as something unattainable and so they resent it? I should think that most men do not see a woman's sexual attractiveness as a privilege.

Now that you mention it, and speaking of myself, I am attracted to dominating, assertive and strong women who make the move first and seem to be in charge. Passive and submissive women are not my type.

I don't know if im the only one here, but don't some crossdressers prefer to be submissive in a relationship? But hey this might get off topic...

[Mink]

Post #39 @Jill

Post #31 @SometimesMiss

fantastic postings!

people want to dismiss any valid thing a man says and go "wah wah you're just a male! the heck do YOU know?"

oh god!


at least that one dude admitted he didn't really even know what he was talking about!

it'll be interesting in the next 5 years (seeing how much it changed in the last 5!) how these things get worse and worse and more heated...

maybe some will soon realize the insanity that is spreading by so many faux-feminists and the male tumblrina Fermi duders who have no clue (no clue!)



also people talk so much about this or that for crappy guys or good godly women ... but I hear next to nothing about the weirdo / dorky / loser / loner guys... who just want to be nice and be loved but are awkward and don't know how to go about things.... they not only get the gift of a life of loneliness but the eternal shame of BEING viewed as a loser by all...

so to the idea of the "nice guy" who is a virgin and grows bitter and depressed and socially cut off on his computer... whose views are slammed and he "just needs to get laid!" ... and then is slammed for that whole nice guy / deranged pervert stalker-esk reputation...

it's madness!

pure & butter mad nasty!

[Ezekiel]

at least that one dude admitted he didn't really even know what he was talking about!

Did you even know what I said for that I didn't really have decent information? I was talking about my experiences on women's taste of men!
Not about sexism! Wow incredible way of distorting my words and taking bits and bits to compose whatever interests you.

Sexism doesn't really need much proof because its out there and easy to see.

Indeed I know that sexism exists, and that patriarchy is there at large, and that you and others here only rant and whine that there is no such a thing and even talk about some non-existent big female privilege, which is in truth very small compared to the one males have.

By the way why are you so offensive in the way you are wording things?

[Mink]

it's not nearly as small as you and others like to think (pretend!)

oh god?

I've... seen... THINGS!


no one is TRULY pretending in this world that things aren't quite unfair to women as a whole... but things are getting much better

TOO better... it's like they want revenge?

they want all the groovy good side of being femme... but none of the bad sides

and to ignore the bad sides of deals for men and mock them / make them feel like crap?

what good does that do!

it makes a generation of dis-illusioned BITTER men growing up on the internet becoming MRAs with Fedoras and NeckBeards and Vaping and into My Little Pony etc!

has the whole world gone gray?

am I taking crazy pills or did someone dose me or is EVERYONE being dosed?

wake up people!

pull the sheep people's wool out from under your eyes and put on your lone wolf clothing!

ahhhh!

[Marcelle]

. . . I should think that most men do not see a woman's sexual attractiveness as a privilege. It's just biology, something that he is attracted to and because of this, he might be willing to go through some hoops to get what he wants, depending on the situation. lol

:confused: Umm . . . that is not what I implied Reine. You talked about separate women's gym facilities and I was responding with what I have seen (as a guy) and what my own wife has relayed to me . . . men leer and while it may not be in a pervy sense, it is still very uncomfortable for her . . . so I was not saying that men see a woman's sexual attractiveness as a privilege. Please don't misquote me . . . thanks :)

Cheers

Isha


Yes, privilege is subjective. For some people being passive, submissive, doing everything their partner demands to them, esentially being their slave, etc, might be the best. But this is not the case for majority, and people generally does not want things enforced to them. People demands equality.

When there is a big inequality, such as when people in Africa is dying of famine and people in the US or Northern Europe is not, we can say that the second are privileged.

Equality for all, is freedom for all.

It means the one who is willingly a slave to their partner will be as happy as the one who does not want this enforced to her/him.

C'est quoi ca? What the heck does this have to do with what I posted. Please read, I was on your side but it appears all you want to do is pick a fight with whomever posts in response to your opinion.

Isha

[HarleyQuinn]

@sometimes_miss

That was a terrible thing that happened to you I am sorry that happened. I hope that you have been given the care and support needed after something like that.

To the meat of the discussion. I am seeing a lot of assumptions about the thoughts women have and women you describe are absolutely horrible people, but I can only think of one woman I know who thinks or acts this way and she gets shunned by other women for it (she's not allowed near any of my male friends or family members and my friends avoid the mes out of her. Giant narcissistic gold digger and stage 5 clinger on top of it). Why would anyone want to be in a relationship, let alone the same room as someone who thinks that way? I also think a lot of these are bound by generation. I am in my late 20's and can't assume anyone's age, but I certainly don't get on the train and expect a man to get up for me. I was raised to respect others and my legs work just fine so I have gotten up for older adults of any gender, people with disabilities, parents of any gender with kids, people who just look tired, you name it. I also make the same amount as my spouse and will be making more than him when I finish my doctorate at which point, assuming I don't kick him to the curb for reason unrelated to money, he wants to stay home with whatever children we have. It's a new world. There is no shame behind that.

I'd invite you to look back at my statement. I said men get LESS help when assaulted, not may not. It is a fact that they do not get the same level of care both from law enforcement and health care. Further I think you minimize the amount of bullying females do face. It is on par with males. For example (yes i know, anecdotes), a girl I went to school with had her belongings vandalized daily, was shoved, hit, had things thrown at her, verbally harassed, and finally was attacked with a golf club by another student. She was always on the quiet side, not many friends in any crowd popular or not, and turned out to be on the autism spectrum. While that wasn't a daily beating or getting called ridiculous names for not getting physical, it certain left a mark. Its not about the popular crowd. That's very much a stereotype of the adolescent life of a female. There are body images issues, sexual identity issues, fear of physical relationships, the list goes on. And its absolutely fair to say those apply to both sexes, making the topic a wash.

As far as suicide goes, males will make attempts as a cry for help has well. Most of these cries for help are more in line with self harm habits people use to get attention and hopefully have someone help. The intent and planning are equal once someone says they have a plan and intend to. That is not a contest. It is taken seriously in all cases. I also pointed to older men specifically because they are statistically at the highest risk of committing suicide. The entire section there was pointing to the fact that we see older man= grandpa= happy, and no one thinks to check, even after stressful life events like loss of a SO or home. Additionally, screening for suicide is difficult in that we are not with people everyday and every hour, but if you ask someone in a medical setting if they are having thoughts of suicide and self harm they are far more likely to tell you the truth than to lie about it. That is one of the reasons we screen people, a huge number of people (don't remember it off the top of my head) were seen by a primary care provider or in a hospital with a month of their suicide. We also screen more for depression and substance abuse more now than in the past for similar reasons. It lets us know something is up and we can intervene. Back to older men, we discount the fact that for generations men DID have to "suck it up" and couldn't be vulnerable. Many older men are still in this line, but it is changing for younger men. I'd hope that by the time I have children these disparities will be a thing of the past.

Things have to change when people want that change. Women did have to fight to get to where they are and some men fought alongside them. It's not an attack on men to seek progress. In a lot of ways that fight is making things more equal for men too. I agree with another poster. A privilege is what you make of it. Looking at things as disparities makes it easier to be black and white. It's not taking away from one group to help another when we address them and its easier to swallow for a lot of people.

[Greenie]

You talked about separate women's gym facilities and I was responding with what I have seen (as a guy) and what my own wife has relayed to me . . . men leer and while it may not be in a pervy sense, it is still very uncomfortable for her . .

Isha

I also mentioned gyms. I think getting leered at is awful. Getting harassed when trying to work out is the worst. Even while wearing my engagement ring I have guys make Comments to me when I run.

There are some alpha male types at the gyms that think that type of aggressive behavior is okay. When I say no, don't start trying to correct my form, don't touch me, don't keep watching me, and please don't make grunting sounds. Like yeah, girl. Oh.

It's awful. I doubt that happens to men. I would love a female only gym.

Edit: also to others. Seriously. Mud slinging? Cant you all talk to each other without bashing each other? People are so strong behind a computer screen. If you wouldn't say it to your mother's face, mud slinging here is not appropriate either.

I also love the "I am not going to engage but I will post and get the last word posts" I am one of the youngest here, many of you need to grow up and learn how to speak to other human beings. Some of you are crushIng my faith in humanity today.

[Purple Puppy GG]

Greenie,

I agree with you about the gym with leering it is awful, I do my best to workout with a friend.

[Ally 2112]

i do think women have some privileges over men .Here is thing for the the most part women have had to fight for everthing they have achieved because they were looked at as second class people .Now living in a first world country or western scociety women have a lot of rights and of course invaded a lot of mens once private domains .Living in a third world country they really do not have many rights at all .This what make me grateful for what i do and can do with dressing up in womens clothes and not be arrested :)

[Ezekiel]

:
C'est quoi ca? What the heck does this have to do with what I posted. Please read, I was on your side but it appears all you want to do is pick a fight with whomever posts in response to your opinion.

Isha

I see what you imply here, I misunderstood one part of the post, my apologies. But I wasn't picking a fight, since I thought you were saying that privilege is relative, I wanted to remark that while it is, the majority want equality.

Thats all, and I'm sorry if it sounded aggressive, but it is not my intention.

[ReineD]

:confused: Umm . . . that is not what I implied Reine.

No, I wasn't implying that you implied it. lol. My comment was a general observation. Also I think that a man's interest, however the expression shows up on his face, might be interpreted by a woman as either a leer or an admiring glance - it basically boils down to how the woman sees it ... but all of this is difficult to measure. For example I've been on beaches where we are "almost" naked (the closest approximation to being in a gym locker room), and I've received admiring glances from men. I did not view this as leering and it did not make me feel threatened. I imagine I'd feel the same way if I were in a nudist colony.

Wouldn't it be so much easier if we were all in one big room discussing this together? Not just this small exchange between you and me, but exchanges between other posters as well. :)

[Mark/Rebecca]

Please save me a seat next to you on that discussion, Reine.

[Leslie Langford]

I've been following this thread with increasing fascination - not only because of some of the very pertinent points raised on both sides of the argument - but also because it has tapped into a vein of perhaps previously-buried (suppressed?) angst, insecurity, a perception of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence", a re-hash of enduring (but now sometimes discredited) myths of gender inequality where this no longer exists, and dare I say it? - laced with perhaps a hint of resentment, jealousy and even misogyny by some of the members here, and directed at those very GG's whom we profess to revere and attempt to emulate.

A complex issue indeed, but sometimes we can't seem to see the forest for the trees. From a crossdresser's perspective, isn't the one aspect of GG privilege and sense of entitlement as we perceive it - and which really grates on us, especially those of us in DADT relationships - that "society" has given our wives and SO's permission to look down upon us as if we were pond-scum and the lowest form of life because - GASP! - we like to wear women's clothing??? Oh, the horror...the humanity!

We are made to feel like perverts because we may have a preference for panties over boxers or briefs, pantyhose over wool socks, skirts and dresses over pants, and heels over wing-tips or brogues. No "real" man would do such a thing. We become an embarrassment to our wives and SO's because of our effeminate clothing preferences, and God forbid that someone they (we) know might catch us in the act. We would then become a complete laughing-stock and we and our immediate families would quite rightly become fair game to be shamed mercilessly by all and sundry - not only in person, but likely also via the various popular social media which seem to delight in this type of on-line, "holier-than-thou" bullying. Best to move right across the country and go completely off the grid lest our pervy inclinations catch up with us again...

Get a grip, folks - we're talking clothing here. Clothing! Clothing choices that can trigger outrage, moralizing, and hand-wringing of a type best reserved in the cosmic scheme of things for actions like the callous assassination of Cecil the lion king, ISIS atrocities, or the plight of the world's poor, hungry, and disenfranchised.

And all the while, these same wives and SO's get to wear anything they d@mn well please with reckless abandon - "menswear" if they feel the urge to empower themselves by dressing like the boys, or alternatively, dressing like skanky ho's because, after all, their bodies are their own, they don't owe anyone any explanations as to what they do with them, and woe to any man who might entertain the thought of "sl*t-shaming" them by calling B.S. on this type of behavior.

Best of both worlds when it comes to GG clothing choices? You bet. Unequivocal example of female privilege? Absolutely!

[Krististeph]

I sit here making about 1/4 of what i could... waiting for a full time position. My wife is behind me- making close to 6 figures in nursing, and going to school on top of that...

What do i do?

I keep the house clean. Wash and fold clothes. Buy groceries, and food for the animals. I keep the house maintained, be it plumbing, electrical, mechanical, architectural. Maintain the cars, her motorcycle, and other items. Kill spiders. Relocate most everything else because snow white does not want to see things killed. Build additions for the house. Accompany/sag her on her runs. Clean the animals. Wash the linens. Care and spend extra time with the animals.

Then, when she gets home, I cook. I print out her school stuff. I format her papers and references. Do research. Write position papers she can work off of. Outline her assignments. Proofread. Align to APA style. We collaborate on her school work-- she has done enough to be teaching the stuff she has to slog through- and actually often does.

And i get yelled at if the wash is not done, or the house is a mess. But we ultimately function as a true team- snarky and snotty sometimes, but together for 25+ years- beating the odds and and the rest of the world.

I really am a housewife. I kind of like it, but I hate that she has the burden of earning now. We've swapped this several times- there is no score keeping.

But yes- guys are excluded from the 'home-maker' role by default. And ostracized. My neighbor who retired early is in a similar position (not TG), we bitch about it regularly as we take care of the 97 year old lady's house who lives between us.

Yep- we get the shaft, just like women do/did. But we (the neighbor and i ) both agree we have the advantage being male, regardless of household position. It is unequal, but in it's own strange way- reasonably equatable. At least in our locale and micro-society...

But no matter what- you still protect your family first- regardless of gender or position.

And I get to dress how i want at home. So I'm not complainin' about nothin' no how... this will only last a limited time, then it's 'put on the daddy pants...' (albeit with satin panties) for however long need be. I only wish everyone else could be so lucky... And the hilarious part is that i don't really think she accepts me as TG: she plays along, supports me, but she really is not at all 'into' it- not even for the engagement of someone she cares for. It's an odd dynamic. But we deal with it. There are a few things i am not crazy about her either, but quid quo pro.

[ReineD]

Krististeph, how wonderful that you and your wife have found a balance that is good for you!! Before kids, when I was working hard often evenings and weekends, I wished I had someone at home to take care of all the stuff too! It worked well though because my ex was very good about sharing the responsibilities at home with me, so it would have been nice for both of us to have someone else take care of it all. lol.

I think that increasingly, couples are sharing the load. I have 3 sons in their 20s and I KNOW they do not see a gender gap as much as prior generations. I can totally see my oldest son, after having had kids (they don't have farm animals to take care of), either staying home while his wife becomes the major income earner, or both having flex jobs so as to not leave the kids in child care. My SO has many grad students from all over the world (most are married) and about half of the students are women. The female student's husbands are in supportive roles (PhD programs are demanding) and these couples come from Sri Lanka, Saudi Arabia, India, Bhutan, Nepal, some of the African countries (and other countries that I cannot remember right now). So the world is definitely changing, not just in Europe, Australia, and North America. One woman from Saudi Arabia came here with her 5 children and husband (she had a 6th child while in the program), and her husband's sole role was to take care of the house and kids so she could complete her degree. Her own religious beliefs still compelled her to adhere strictly to wearing the burka, she still went out in public with her husband (and kids) present (although she did give herself permission to meet with her advisor, my SO, alone and she went to all her classes alone) but she by no means felt limited in terms of attaining a higher degree and having her husband here to take care of the kids so she could do so.

I know this is not part of your statements, but there is no way that I consider the narrowing of gender roles as an indication that women are becoming more masculine, and the men are becoming more feminine. Men and women are just as firmly ensconced in their genders and gender-identities as they always were. It's just that now the definitions of the "roles" are changing. For example it is no longer "masculine" to mow the lawn, remodel the bathroom, work full time, or get a PhD. It is no longer "feminine" to cook, do the laundry, and take care of the kids. And everyone changes the diapers. :p



Please save me a seat next to you on that discussion, Reine.
Awww :hugs:


that "society" has given our wives and SO's permission to look down upon us as if we were pond-scum and the lowest form of life because - GASP! - we like to wear women's clothing???

I'm only a drop in the bucket, but I don't look upon CDers as pond-scum. I don't think the other GGs here do as well. And most people my SO and I run into while out, I don't believe look at us as pond-scum either, even though they might be scratching their heads in puzzlement. A few people do have strong negative opinions, but that's their issue. My brother does not approve. But, he doesn't think that my SO is a horrible human being, he rather likes him.

[Leslie Langford]

I'm only a drop in the bucket, but I don't look upon CDers as pond-scum. I don't think the other GGs here do as well. And most people my SO and I run into while out, I don't believe look at us as pond-scum either, even though they might be scratching their heads in puzzlement. A few people do have strong negative opinions, but that's their issue. My brother does not approve. But, he doesn't think that my SO is a horrible human being, he rather likes him.

Fair enough, Reine, but I was specifically referring to the DADT wives and SO's, and that clearly doesn't apply to you and most of the other GG partners here. Let's face it, if they were really hard core DADT proponents, they sure as heck wouldn't be spending any of their precious free time on a CD forum trying to learn what makes their spouses tick or else getting advice on how to come to terms with their CDing. In their world, CDing is vile and in defiance of the proper order of things, and in no way deserves to be accepted, let alone tolerated.

Wives and SO's are far more likely to adopt a NIMBY ("Not in my back yard") stance compared with other (even "vanilla") GG's that a CDer is likely to encounter among friends, relatives, or even strangers. This issue has been discussed ad nauseum here, and we all know that it comes back to the matter of sex and intimacy that is at the core of a couples relationship, and where CDing throws a monkey wrench into the works because it is so hard for these GG partners to get their heads around this.

[Krististeph]

Krististeph, how wonderful that you and your wife have found a balance that is good for you!! Before kids, when I was working hard often evenings and weekends, I wished I had someone at home to take care of all the stuff too! It worked well though because my ex was very good about sharing the responsibilities at home with me, so it would have been nice for both of us to have someone else take care of it all. lol.

I think that increasingly, couples are sharing the load. I have 3 sons in their 20s and I KNOW they do not see a gender gap as much as prior generations.

Thanks Reine. It helps to hear that others do the same thing. It's definitely gender-role related, I still feel i should be the one doing the most 'supporting'- in terms of money and house stuff... It's a but of a ego reduction not earning as much as she is. At the same time, I'm both proud of her and wish she did not have to work so hard. At the moment, she is sick with some nasty strain of flu, but i have a few weeks before classes begin in earnest.

I think some of the housework drive goes back to the army, squaring away all the details- getting the troops ready for the next foray. Uniforms would be easier, of course. But I do like taking care of the little things so that she can get out to work with minimum fuss, get back and relax with nothing in the way, eat, nap, play, study, etc. Which I think is funny (odd) because this attention to detail and planning was one of the things i got a lot of shit for in the army- by my own squad. Anything not redneck was seen as 'gay' and derided. It was just a bad combination of timing and people I think. But just as the army marches on it's stomach (requires a supply chain), so does the household- and I'm happy to do the work. She makes the majority of the money, decides when to pay the bills, etc. We even split ownership of things to maximize our credit rating leverage. I know lots of people would freak at this- but we decided early on not to 'keep score' on things- we each have our own certain things, shared stuff, and we are very happy with the arrangement.

But I still feel a bit guilty when she comes home from working, and I've been dressed up all day playing 'housewife'. The house gets cleaned and food or snacks are waiting, research is ready and templates are formatted. Yet I still feel like I'm not doing all I can, because I'm paying attention to what i want to do as well. I guess I need to find a balance. Granted, I don't talk to her as much about this as perhaps I should, but I don't want to overwhelm her with any more issues or things to think about than she already has. I can see that this is a bad habit to get into for me... and I'm thinking 'it will work itself out', but we have only two more months of her crazy school schedule to go- and then she can relax. After a few months of getting her head back together, maybe I'll try talking about it then- until then- I'll stay lower key around her.