Transgender travel documents

[Pat]

I was just reading an article over at Time (I'd post the link, but I don't want my thread to get moved to the 'Media' section) that talks about Nepal issuing passports with a designation for people who identify as neither male nor female. It says in part:


Nepal is just the latest country to authorize a third gender category for passport holders, however. To date, Bangladesh, India, Denmark and Australia, among others, offer the designation on travel documents.

The deal is that they're placing an "O" (for "Other") in the sex box of their passports based on the applicant's preference.

It strikes me that this could put an end to the 'bathroom bills' that seem to be popular in the US -- if transgender people could get official documents with a designator that distinguishes them then they could (I hope) get away from the designator on their birth certificates. Of course, chances of this happening spontaneously in the US are pretty small, but it wold be a worthy goal to work toward.

If you could get an "O" on your Driver's license, for example, would you do it?

[Jorja]

Sorry, I am a Female NOT an Other or an It. The only way it would solve the bathroom issue is if they built O bathrooms.

[Danitgirl1]

I wonder, why the need to identify gender at all?
It simply doesn't make much sense to me.
I come from a country where up until 25 odd years ago we used to have to have our race shown on our official documents.
WHY? That was shown to be a dodgy deal at best, so why gender?
OK, so the cops may want to be able to say' we are looking for a 27 year old MALE 5'10" with brown eyes'... Have criminals on the run NEVER thought to crossdress in order to evade capture? Does that work? Not very well because if it did they would all be doing it...
So WHY the need for a gender marker at all?
Most (all?) governments have a unique number to identify their citizens. So why have a gender marker at all?
Maybe you need it to prove that you are entitled to some service or privilege (affirmative action?) But then a trans person confuses this anyway.
Surely the time has come to move on?

On another note Jorja, isnt 'looking for an O bathroom' what got George Michael into trouble all those years ago?
:eek:

[Sarah-RT]

An interesting idea for sure, here in Ireland they passed a bill recently to allow people to self define their gender rather than require a doctor or psychologist to write a report, however it's only for Male or Female, I like the concept of Other so if a passport was to be inspected you wouldn't have to explain why you look the wrong gender to the picture etc etc

Sarah x

[Pat]

Sorry, I am a Female NOT an Other or an It.

Good catch, Jorja. I probably should have been more explicit in asking the question and specifically said, "If you identify as transgender AND you could get a transgender marker on your official documents, would you do it?"

It's very clear that the marker would have no attraction to people who strongly identify with the binary gender system.

As to bathrooms, my thought was that having a transgender marker could short-circut the argument that random males of evil intent would start cruising the ladies room. (I never actually hear the reflexive argument that women would start coming into the men's room.) If I "pre-declare" as it were my gender preference it seems to me I'd be less threatening. I don't know if that's true.

[mechamoose]

As an 'O', I approve!

If you want to be invisible, you don't need this designation, enjoy the walk on the other side!!

-MM

[PaulaQ]

Your travel documents and other ID have your photo on them. Why do they need a gender marker at all? Remove the stupid useless gender markers - problem solved.

[Suzie Petersen]

Traveling to a country in the far east a long time ago, I was presented with an immigration document that did not have the classic [ ] Male / [ ] Female check boxes, it just said: Sex? ______

I wrote "Yes please!"

Needless to say they did not find that amusing, and neither did I actually after being held and questioned for 4 hours.

- Suzie

[Pat]

Your travel documents and other ID have your photo on them. Why do they need a gender marker at all? Remove the stupid useless gender markers - problem solved.

This is actually fun! I feel like I'm paying off a karmic debt caused by having once worked for a company whose Super Bowl commercial claimed they were expert at herding cats. :)

BUT the question is, if you identify as transgender and you have the opportunity to select "Other" as a sex marker, would you do it?

We can all agree that citizens of Planet Earth should not have to have passports or that an evil patriarchy should not be requiring personal information. But at present they do. Nobody is changing that, but some few countries ARE changing their gender markers -- that's what the question is about.

[PaulaQ]

I identify as female - I'm a woman, not an other. If I were genderqueer or agender or otherwise non-binary, I'd choose O. But I've worked hard for the F on my documents.

[LeslieSD]

An interesting idea for sure, here in Ireland they passed a bill recently to allow people to self define their gender rather than require a doctor or psychologist to write a report, however it's only for Male or Female, I like the concept of Other so if a passport was to be inspected you wouldn't have to explain why you look the wrong gender to the picture etc etc

Sarah x

Really? That makes me wanting to move to Ireland.

[AbigailJordan]

I think some people have been a little harsh in their responses.. For those girls who have applied and successfully been granted the "F" marker on their documents, kudos to you and we are all happy for you.

For those of us gender fluid however, the concept of a neutral gender marker is a good idea. Not all of us live full time as women and would appreciate the option to not be categorised as purely one gender or the other. Current technology would easily allow an "alternative" photo to be added to the electronic side of the passport to be used if you were travelling en femme.

The bathroom issue is a non-starter as far as I can tell. Even with an "O" marker on my documents, I would still only use the bathroom appropriate to my presentation, and I do that already despite the "M" marker on my ID. But then I also live in the UK where such issues aren't as big of a deal anyway.

[Jennifer-GWN]

I have a name it is female. I identify as female. There birth dates which help to define along with address me from someone else. See no need or value for gender marker. We have enough segmentation In the world needed or not or perceived but in this case to serve the documents purpose the marker aspect adds no value.

Cheers... Jennifer

[AbigailJordan]

Jennifer, the question isn't whether a gender marker is necessary, I think most here agree absolutely that it's a pointless marker for identification purposes on any document.

The question is actually one that has been asked millions of times in thousands of places. Are there only two genders? All of the ladies here strongly expressing their identity as purely female and suggesting that an "O" marker is pointless or "wrong" are effectively supporting the binary gender movement and denying all those of us who do not feel they conform to either gender as invalid.

I agree there is no need for further segregation (I think is what you were going for), so it saddens me to see so many of our number dismissing the needs and feelings of those who are somewhere in between and suggesting they pick one gender or the other.

[Samantha Clark]

^^^^^^^ what Abi said, I agree wholly. Even though I identify as male, not O or F, I say death to the gender binary. It's nothing but trouble.

[Alexis08]

No, i'm fine with the fact it says M on my passport. It's fun to see them check my passport and then take a closer look at me.

[Jennifer-GWN]

Happy to clarify my stance... No marker required.

[PaulaQ]

All of the ladies here strongly expressing their identity as purely female and suggesting that an "O" marker is pointless or "wrong" are effectively supporting the binary gender movement and denying all those of us who do not feel they conform to either gender as invalid.

Well, not quite all of us. I support the validity of non-binary identies, and would support an "O" or "X" type marker for gender non-conforming identitified folks. I want to be very clear about that. In any activist work I've done, I've always tried to be supportive of non-binary gender identified trans people.

I just think we'd be better off without such markers in the first place, and having people know you as Abigail, rather than associating you with any gender, and all that implies. I'd rather us be able to define ourselves, regardless of gender identity. I think the amount of rigamarole required to change a letter on a card and in a database is cruel, ridiculous and pointless.

[Pat]

But I've worked hard for the F on my documents.

I totally respect that. I remember when my girlfriend finally got all her required paperwork to get the gender marker on her driver's license changed she came bursting through the door and shouted, "I got an F in sex!!!" It was a huge, validating moment for her after years of what I see as humiliating impediments thrown in her way by the state. I think maybe getting a transgender marker might be as validating to me.

It's interesting (to me) that passports are heavily controlled by treaty and convention so I don't think five countries could just spontaneously decide to issue a gender marker of "O" on their own. To me that says that there's an international committee somewhere that sat down and worked on this and that they came up with a convention of using "O" which got ratified and so far five countries have stepped up to the plate and implemented it. I'm hoping this means more are on the way. And I'm really, really hoping the US is one of them (though given the turbulence around gender identity protections it seems unlikely it will happen soon.)

But I've always said vocabulary is important to be able to discuss issues like ours, and having a transgender marker would be an important way to get previously unsympathetic parties to talk. Once they admit we exist they have to talk to us. ;)

[HelenR2]

A lot of official departments and large companies in Britain already have the option 'Mx'.

[Alexis08]

I can imagine that having "O" instead of "M" would make things easier since they would be less likely to question you regarding your gender and dress in front of other people.

But when you're dressed as a guy, they might raise eyebrows when they see "O" on your passport. lol

[AbigailJordan]

I just think we'd be better off without such markers in the first place.......I think the amount of rigamarole required to change a letter on a card and in a database is cruel, ridiculous and pointless.

I totally agree Paula, but as someone (I think it was the OP) pointed out, whether we think a gender marker is pointless or not, it is how society and government currently work when it comes to "identifying" citizens. I think the point raised was that if we are forced to live in a world where governmental systems insist on gender identification, should we not at least have the option to rebuke the binary nature of such identifaction. As for the rigmarole of changing the marker on documents, remember that "pointless" and "ridiculous" are the two favourite ways that governments like to spend our tax dollars. And I don't see who would be subjected to cruelty as a result of such a change. or maybe I misunderstood your meaning. xx

[PaulaQ]

I totally agree Paula, but as someone (I think it was the OP) pointed out, whether we think a gender marker is pointless or not, it is how society and government currently work when it comes to "identifying" citizens.

We'd like to change that!


And I don't see who would be subjected to cruelty as a result of such a change. or maybe I misunderstood your meaning. xx

I think you misunderstood me - the current process to change identity documents, at least in the US is arbitrary and often cruel, sometimes requiring medical procedures such as GRS that the person may not want or need, and often significant legal expense.

A new type of gender marker is better and kinder than forcing people who identify as neither M or F to pick an identity that still doesn't fit. I just think the process would likely remain cruel and unfair, and could be eliminated by removing the markers altogether on photo IDs.

[Danitgirl1]

Hi all
So this thread, combined with an article I saw on a local news site has prompted me to write a blog in which I lay out my thoughts on two related issues.
It is over 1 000 words o maybe a bit long to repost here.
If you are interested you can find it at https://daniellaargento.wordpress.com/2015/08/14/on-trans-phobia-and-the-use-of-names-and-mis-gendering-people/
Laters
D

[Pat]

Interesting musings. I think the comparison of transgenderism to diabetes fails in that there is an objective test for diabetes that can unambiguously prove someone is diabetic.

As for gender being on identity documents I'm thinking that's not a winnable fight. If I was a cop and they were sending me out to look for someone, I'd want to know if I'm looking for a man or a woman -- it cuts the search field in half. And in that case, having a transgender marker is actually a benefit to me -- I'd have a strong hint that this person has skills to present as either sex (I think we've all found that without practice your ability to present isn't very good.)

But to me the most important function of a transgender marker is that it validates me. It admits that there's something else and I'm that, whatever it is. It admits that me dressing as a male is just as fictional (though better practiced) as dressing female. Of course, it has another important function -- after the transgender marker has been around long enough to lose notoriety it provides an answer to that ever-popular question: how many are we? As the Williams Institute notes, minorities don't count until they are counted. And it would acknowledge that "gender assigned at birth" is an opinion, not a fact -- the fact can only be ascertained after the person who is being described can state the answer. So much from one little letter. ;)

[Danitgirl1]

Fair point re an objective test, but the comparison was a metaphorical rather than direct comparison.
If there were no gender markers on official documents it would not validate or invalidate you.
Does your phone number have a gender marker? No. Do you feel more or less validated by this? I suspect you don't care. Of course we may find other things to obsess about but fundamentally I can see no valid reason for needing a marker on your official documents.
Of course police will say the suspect is a 30 year old male with blonde hair and green eyes... Do they need any of this on a passport to correctly identify someone? No. They look for someone fitting that description PHYSICALLY not based onwhat is on their identity documents...

[Michelle789]

I identify as female. I am a woman. I am not an other, not an it, not queer. I support non-binary people, and the idea of having an "O" on documents for those who identify as neither male nor female.

However, I am a woman. I will never settle for having an "O" on my document. To me, an "O" degrades me just as bad as an "M" does. My only fear is forcing all trans identified people to mark "O" on their documents. My fear is that we will get pushed further into the "other" category. We need to really educate people about the difference between a woman who was born male (or man who was born female) who is transgender, versus a non-binary identified transgender person. Lots of people just are unaware of this fact.

[Alexis08]

I almost never use the word "transgender" since the word makes it more difficult for people to differentiate between us.