Is part of my life fraudulent?

[Teresa]

It's strange how things happen but I was delayed walking the dog this morning and caught the end of the BBC breakfast show . It featured a story about the pageant being hosted in the UK, I felt the TS featured acted up to the cameras too much but then they interviewed Stephanie ( Simon ) Hirst in the studio, she a recent TS and presents a radio show in the UK. The slot was short but in that time the message came over so clearly, she said the biggest obstacle was getting over to the family and friends how she felt and how the GD melted away once the transition started. Now the conflict has gone she is so happy that her needs have been satisfied and she truly be herself !
Those few words and the way they were put for some reason made me think part of my life felt fraudulent but which half ? I also wondered if my wife was having those thoughts too , she's been touchy knowing my gender counselling is today . I guess it's only inevitable that she should think that when her husband is seeking help with gender issues !

Anyway I've just returned from the first session , it went very well, I was open and honest from the start. After the initial why are you here questions I suggested I show her some pictures, she agreed that it would give a clearer message. Oh boy the look on her face she puffed her cheeks out and said you're serious about this aren't you ! She said the transformation and obvious signs of happiness just can't be denied or suppressed . The conclusion is I was born like it I need to openly express my feelings I need to transition but not fully just be able to live at least 50% dressed, and to somehow work on my wife's acceptance. The hiding and DADT situation is mentally crippling me , she's not surprised that that I can't mentally move on until these issues are resolved , especially as I've lived so many years suppressing a real part of me. She was critical of my wife's attitude to intimacy and sexual activity but I told her I could live with that if the other matters could be resolved.

I have to add she is an attractive lady and couldn't help compliment on her heels which I apologised for but she found it funny !
We touched on shopping and my clothes preferences, she agreed that I could pass but when I told her that I wouldn't wear trousers she raised a questioning eyebrow, I added well would you cover those legs up ? She replied they're too dammed good to hide !

[ReineD]

Wow, she said that you were born with this, and you need to partially transition (what does this mean) to dressing at least 50% of the time, plus she was critical of your wife's issues with sexual intimacy? When she mentioned 'partially transition', was she referring to altering parts of your body to be female (breasts maybe?)? Or did she mean that you should go on hormones but no surgeries?

How often have you seen this counselor, and has she had any sessions with your wife?

[Teresa]

Reine,
As I said I was totally open and honest with her, we talked solidly for an hour and covered a lot of ground.
My wife again refused to attend , so I just gave facts .
By transition I feel she's using Isha's interpretation of it to dress more than 50% to almost full time, but no need for medical or surgical intervention just live the other half of what I was born with and find happiness in that .

[Teresa]

WELL YOU ARE HALF WOMAN !

Just an update from my first session
My wife asked me the next morning how it went ? I asked calmly do you really want to know ? She replied not really, it's your problem to sort out not mine ! I raised my tone slightly and replied you realise that some point in the future you may have to listen to what they say !!
I'm afraid that I felt so gutted, the rest of the day I tried to avoid her and say as little as possible.

Come Saturday evening after helping my son knock through to his new house extension we sat with a glass of wine, I commented on a mug my son gave me some tea in , it has a picture of a blue high heeled shoe on it, I said trust him to give me that one !
My wife replied well that's alright you are half woman ! I looked at her in disbelief and said ," Sorry would you care to repeat that ?
Obviously my words from the previous day had sunk in and suddenly I was being recognised and accepted for what I truly believe !
I really hope this might be a turning point !

[Jilmac]

Teresa, I think we all might be a little fraudulent by presenting ourselves as something other than who or what we really are.

[Sara Jessica]

I think she is telling you what you want to hear.

Sounds like you found a councilor who'd feed into a convenient sort of "transition" that would somehow justify your own goal (to bring this front and center with your wife 50% of the time). I'd tread very carefully.

[Robin414]

I've come to realize that I've always fought hard to be 'that guy' but lately I'm losing the fight and apologized to my SO for that. She's completely OK with it but honestly neither of us saw it coming (I guess I was a pretty good fighter) 😮

[ShriekCassandra]

I know how you feel. I find it very hard to function properly as a person while constantly hiding or suppressing the trans aspect of myself just to keep everyone else who can't understand or relate to the subject pacified . Always skulking around in the shadows being afraid of getting 'found out' like its something to be ashamed of, when the only reason I feel that way is because cisgender orientated society taught me to. So sick of it. I hope from your recent comments that your wife may start to be more accepting and you'll have enough support you need for you to finally start living out and proud in the identity you feel you truly belong as, regardless of how 'far' you or your therapist think you should go with it.

[St. Eve]

Really appreciate this thread...so good to know I am not alone.

I have my fourth CD and TG issues counseling session tomorrow as well as my first SO agreed dress up day at home. She will be out of the house for the experience. While she supports me in finding myself, she is having a really hard time fearing the future and staying present centered and adult. So, for now, it is me on my journey and her with her own counselor trying to prepare for the journey. I am very grateful for her support in me finding me, and, very sad she can not accompany me at this time....time will tell where we go.

Peace
St. Eve

[Robin414]

My SO has 'I am Cait' on the recorder, I think that's a good thing?

[St. Eve]

Since the Bruce interview was the trigger for me coming out and my SO feeling tremendous guilt and fear and self loathing, we have not even watched commercials for 'I am Cait." Every time one comes on, one of us changes the channel.... lol

[Teresa]

Sara,
It's a point I'm going to bring up with her at our next session !
The counsellor is part of Relate set up by the government, her basic aim will be to get me into a happy mental state to improve my relationship with my wife . In doing so she may go along with my thoughts and actions not questioning if they are right or wrong. It was the first session to get an idea of what the problem is so she may formulate how to handle the next one .

[CarlaWestin]

..........she may go along with my thoughts and actions not questioning if they are right or wrong.........

Something I learned the hard way many years ago is that all therapists are different. Teresa, you and I are in similar situations with DADT and the irresistible urge pulling at all times. I feel I'm mentally half female but, at this point, really good at being the man. When I do get protracted periods of time, I'm 100% female in dress and mannerism. I'm not too many life situational changes away from considering at least partial transition. I feel you may be the same way. Try not to invest too much conclusion initially from therapy. Just enjoy the outlet for your true feelings. Good luck, Sweetie.

[Marcelle]

Hi Teresa,

I believe there is one constant for many of us (note - I did not say "all of us" in case someone thinks I am pushing a TG agenda). For some, dressing brings stress relief, joy, sexual release or just plain fun. They do so, put it away and go on with their lives until the next time. It seldom bleeds into their day to day existence and relationships. For others, it bleeds into our lives. For some it is a trickle (i.e., a feeling that somehow there is more than just the clothes) for others it is an open floodgate and being who they need to be but cannot will cause great emotional stress. This is where things can go off the rails with relationships when the floodgate is open and GD comes pouring in. I believe you are most likely feeling some of that . . . it may not be a floodgate but it is more than a trickle. This IMHO is what is most likely causing your feeling of being "somewhat fraudulent" . . . a desire to be who you need to be but reticence (for a variety of reasons only you know) to express that side of you. The unfortunate thing is there is only two real options and each comes with their own issues: (1) continue as you are which will increase you anxiety and emotional distress; or (2) live as you need to live to be happy which could have knock on effects for your relationship. To be honest, nobody here but yourself is qualified to make that decision for you. Even your counselor would (should) not make that decision as you are the one who has to live with the ramifications.

I am not saying your counselor is off the mark but I do find some therapists who are colleagues of mine and deal with gender identity issues can be a bit "aggressive" in moving patients along. It took me a few times to find a therapist who was willing to listen and guide. She makes recommendations such as "do you think HRT is for you" but never implied I should transition as that is a personal choice each of us needs to come to terms with at some juncture . . . which is what I am struggling with now. I am a bit surprised she was judgmental/critical of your wife's stance on intimacy. I have discussed this question of intimacy with my therapist and while there are some things to work on she never came down on one side over the other but then again all therapists have a different approach. Just remember though, a therapist is there to bring order to chaos and given you clarity of thought. They should act as travel guide on your journey and not a how to book. If they are telling you to do things which make you uncomfortable, let them know you feel so.

Cheers

Isha

[Sara Jessica]

I'm glad Teresa that you're going to bring up whether she is going along with your flow rather than trying to pin down what is truly best for you and the relationship you wish to keep. There are terms used to describe therapists of this type, enablers and card-punchers. You may need to find someone who is willing to challenge you. Then if at the end of the day this particular theory happens to be a genuinely recommended course of action, who are we to question? But I have my concerns given the finding after the first visit, not to mention how your wife's issues were largely dismissed as Isha pointed out. I think that is what struck a nerve with me in the first place. Good luck during your next session.

[Kate Simmons]

I don't consider myself phoney at all. I just consider what I do as different expressions of my feelings.What we choose to do and how we proceed is entirely up to us. :)

[CD_DIANE]

I'm not sure that "fraudulent " is the best term to use. We all deal with issues in life, and make compromises to keep peace or minimize stress. In a perfect /understanding world, we could live without the tradeoffs we all (or most of us) need to make. DADT is problematic because we are intrinsically hiding (DT) a part of who we are, and are building a wall (DA) because we want honest discussion and acceptance but know/fear the reality of honestly answering the question asked. I wish I had an answer, but I do not.

Diane

[Giselle(Oshawa)]

i feel my whole life has been one of hiding who i am really am.
i feel guilty about hiding this from my wife for the first 27 years of our marriage.
although we are still together deep down she feels our marriage is a sham
and has told me if she knew about my crossdressing she would never have married me.
so i believe i have lived a fraudulent life.

[Suzie Petersen]

Teresa,

How many other people with gender issues has your counselor worked with?

There are several things in your report from the first session that just make me go "Hmmmm ..."! One of the big ones being that she came to a "conclusion" about anything during this first session! Unless that is more your words than hers perhaps?

- Suzie

[Teresa]

Suzie,
I could answer this in two ways, either she's had so few she doesn't realise the implications of the points she made or she's seen it all enough times to know how to deal with the pattern of my CDing life . I would say judging by her age the latter is the more likely.
As I said previously I basically stuck to my history and the facts without elaboration, perhaps the events leading up to me almost ending my life and what happened after and my wife's total refusal to attend any of the counselling sessions may have prompted her to make the comment she did.
I realise that it's not her job to pat me on my back and tell me how wonderful CDing is, she has to find ways through the circumstances to bring a relationship back together.
After the length of time I've been dressing she squashed any ideas of it being an obsession I have to face the fact that part of me just needs to live the reality of what I feel inside. I guess she will have to force my hand slightly to make the decisions I need to take . How qualified she is a gender counsellor I can't say but in some respects that may be irrelevant to the overall job she's being asked to do ! I will continue with the sessions, the important point to me is through my GP's referral the NHS is funding them, without that I wouldn't be getting any help, if I ask the right questions I hope I will get most of the answers I'm looking for .

We all know it's not an easy road and everyone's comments about counselling and therapy is very much appreciated, I also hope that other members hesitant about counselling may be prompted to go ahead .

[Suzie Petersen]

Teresa,

It all depends on what your own goal is and what you ask your therapist to help you with. Her job is not to "cure" you in any way or to make you fit within any particular box. Her job is to help you sort out your own thoughts and feelings and help you focus on finding a path to where ever you want to go.


Teresa: I realise that it's not her job to pat me on my back and tell me how wonderful CDing is, she has to find ways through the circumstances to bring a relationship back together.

Yes ... if that is what you ask her to help you with! It just sounds odd to me, and you have heard the same from Reine, Isha and Sara, that she would speak out against your wife's participation in your dressing or her reluctance in the bedroom with you in girl mode, if what she is trying to accomplice is to find common ground for you and your wife! To me that points more in a direction of her trying to make you feel you are right and that you should do what you want!


Teresa: How qualified she is a gender counsellor I can't say but in some respects that may be irrelevant to the overall job she's being asked to do ! I will continue with the sessions, the important point to me is through my GP's referral the NHS is funding them, without that I wouldn't be getting any help, if I ask the right questions I hope I will get most of the answers I'm looking for.

I think it is very important that she is qualified as a gender counselor actually. But something you said earlier "she puffed her cheeks out and said you're serious about this aren't you" tells me she might not have "seen it all" just yet.
Also, I can understand that you are happy about NHS covering the cost of this, and it is wonderful that they do, dont get me wrong. But it is only good if you get the right advise! If the best thing about it is that it is free, then ...

Hugs
Suzie

[jenni_xx]

Before you decide on anything, I would recommend that you see another counselor, just to get a second opinion. It's too important (to you) not to.

[Katey888]

There's good advice here already Teresa - I'd especially note Isha's (who's lived what your objective appears to be), Suzie and jenni (the latter brief, but on the button :)).

I'm not convinced that a Relate counsellor will have the training or experience to truly understand gender issues of the TG/TS-type - utilising Relate because they're free for you is one thing, but finding a therapist experienced in gender issues must serve you well at some point, even if you don't get the answer you're wanting to hear (and why I think Sara Jessica's observation is a true and good one..). This comment also gives some concern:


I guess she will have to force my hand slightly to make the decisions I need to take .

Counsellors will not force your hand... If you don't realise by now that so much of your angst is rooted in your own indecisiveness, then maybe having a therapist suggest that to you would be a good thing... I'm sorry to sound harsh, but your tendency to vacillate is such an artform it could be entered for the Turner Prize... I can't believe you've got this far in life without being able to grasp a few nettles along the way, this is just one more, albeit a bit of a stinger... Get grasping! :hugs:

Katey x

[Alice Torn]

With this thing we have, it is understandable we are in conflict much of the time, as it is not much accepted, though it is tolerated more, in society. Some societies will jail, or punish or kill us! Sometimes i feel fraudulent too, as it is against everything i was taught as a kid, and later. So, it goes against the grain of part of me. If some can totally rid themselves of all conflict about it, hats off to you.

[Teresa]

Katey,
You've posed me a problem now, I could make light of your comment to vacillate being an artform , as you know I do like painting !
To take your point seriously raises the problem why I started this thread in Loved Ones but had it deleted unless it was moved, so it would only be seen by members, but I'm afraid I can't divulge certain details on this open forum, I will PM you to put the matter straight.
Your point about Relate counsellors may be true I found that some Relate centres don't deal with gender issues and I queried this before they offered me an appointment, but I can't say how my referral was worded .

[stefan37]

As I have pointed out previously. You have a need to express yourself much more than you can. Your spouse's reluctance to embrace this part of you is causing distress. You know yourself better than anyone. You'll need to dig deep, but I think you already know what you need to do to find relief. The elephant in the corner is the loss of your marriage. You may find that having greater freedom to express your inner soul will decrease your desire. If you find the desire to let yourself free get more intense. I think you know that answer also. Ask yourself this question. If all external factors were off the table and it was only you. How would you like to interact with society in 5 years?

You are looking for validation from your spouse and from what you have posted. It will most likely never happen and if it does, the years it will take to gain that acceptance and validation may be more than you are willing to wait. I understand why your therapist didn't take your wife's issues in consideration. She is there to help you. For you to gain relief will mean some serious thought about the state of your marriage. I know that sounds harsh. But the reality of GD when it reaches the boiling point. The only relief are actions that benefit you. You can do what is necessary for your own well being and inner peace. Or continue to suffer in an effort to hold the status quo. I am afraid in your case you can't have both.

[KellyJameson]

One of the concerns I had with my genuine gender identity were the forces that created it.

My mother was abusive and I feared that I had bonded with her and in so doing created a female gender identity. The medical community has suggested that gender identity can be created out of trauma and separation.

Much of my time in therapy centered around this. I needed to be very clear in my mind where this identity had come from and the reasons it originated and perpetuated itself

The perpetuation was the key. I have always resonated with other women as them being like me so I could see how my gender identity continued regardless of my mothers influence on its development.

Anyone in a relationship where there is a chance they either are powerless and or potentially being abused and are struggling with gender issues I would strongly encourage them to be clear on how they are being affected by the relationship.

In my opinion you want to be sure you have not formed a symbiotic relationship with a woman who is abusing you that is causing you to question your gender. Stockholm Syndrome http://www.dannyhaszard.com/stockholm_syndrome.htm

I do not like posting in the Cd section but I have watched you go back and forth between the TS and CD section and I am concerned for you and your struggle.

I was not able to offer support for you because I cannot see you clearly as I can with others from the powerful affect your wife has on you and my fearing it may not be healthy.(The appearance of dominance by her pushing you into a submissive role) Dominance and submissiveness when extreme can affect gender identity (cause confusion through role reversal and subsequent acting out of "biased/ learned gender roles")

I cannot even begin to imagine the complexity of gender dysphoria mixed into a dysfunctional and or co-dependent relationship. It would seem insurmountable because transitioning requires almost exclusive focus on the self with no corresponding mental illness from other forms of trauma.

Being born misaligned is traumatic (causes trauma) so endangers the person toward mental illness. This is different than having your gender identity stolen from you through the trauma another does to you.

It is a chicken or egg question of what came first.

[Teresa]

Kelly ,
You referred to some of my previous threads so you may gather that no outside agencies were involved in influencing my CDing , my sexual preferences or gender uncertainties.
Twenty years ago I felt part of me was female, at that time the counsellor I saw ruled those ideas out of hand, thinking has moved on and now it's openly accepted that it does happen, the counsellor I'm seeing now agreed with the new thinking.
That takes me to your next point of my wife possibly inducing the gender uncertainties , it's definitely not the case ! She doesn't abuse me physically, she doesn't intentionally abuse me mentally but the total lack of understanding and acceptance about my CDing is what's giving me mental anguish, along with GD and a questionable relationship !

Many of you see my marriage as flogging a dead horse and I appear to be sacrificing myself for the broader picture ! There's something in me that's seeing the ratio of 51% for and 49% against staying in my marriage has to be worth it, but being that close is obviously not the picture of a perfect happy marriage , I know it's not going to take much of a reason to tip it one way or the other but it has to be the right one , CDing by itself may not be it !

[stefan37]

Cd'ing per se may not be what tips the scales. But living authentically may very well tip it. You are suffering and its not just a simple case of CD'ing. You say yourself you have thoughts that were female. Well those thoughts stay with you. And it appears those thoughts are catching up with you. I am certainly not advocating you transition or even live part time. That is a decision only you can make. You know who you are and the consequences if you choose to live authentically

[Tina_gm]

I will give you advice that my wife will sometimes gives me. Stop stressing everything in terms of gender. It is easy for many of us to do with this condition, to get caught up in things and make them gender related/specific. A lot of what anyone does, male or female is just live life. Why does there have to be such a strong binary line which would make anything you do fraudulent? (unless you are 100% TS) And even then, that does not have to apply either I am thinking.

You may want to be wearing women's clothing, but for any particular and good reason you are not. That does not make you fraudulent. Or any other would be cross gender expression that you may desire to be doing but are not doing. Not doing something that you want to do is not fraud. And, for your own well being, stop stressing everything you do in terms of gender. In reality, men and women live more of the same lives then they do different lives.

[Teresa]

Only the second session and have hit the wall !

The second session went very well so much stuff coming out from my past, not all relevant but helping to clear my mind . Still not a clear idea where I am on the gender line because I'm still being so suppressed with my dressing . My counsellor is trying every angle to try and persuade me to get my wife to attend , I knew I'd hit this wall fairly soon, I have two weeks to work on this before the next appointment, so how do I do it ?

To me my options are 1. directly ask again.

2. get my son and daughter together give them the full facts of why I'm seeking gender counselling and show them all my pictures, perhaps together they could convince her what the outcome could be if I can't come to terms with my CDing and gender issues.

3. try the same thing but with her brother and sister, this option takes the problem away of putting my children in the middle of the situation .

4. tell my wife that whether she agrees or not that I'm going to dress more , if she can't deal with it then the counsellor is more than willing to talk it through why I need to dress more to find a level and possibly get answers to my gender question .

5. tell her straight that I can't live like this anymore and that we should go separate ways.

6. leave everything as it is and wait for me to totally fall apart.

Sadly all this comes to not being able to just to sit down and sensibly talk it through, apparently I have 16 sessions available to me under the NHS and my counsellor said she's going to use everyone to try and move this forward, she's not going to give up on me !

When I arrived back home my wife asked how it went ? I replied very well, she's so easy to talk to, and very attractive and even complemented on her shoes ! My wife replied Oh perhaps she may fancy you then ! I'm afraid there may lie a problem, putting the counselling aside I'm beginning to be attracted to her , I really didn't need this complication. She sat there for some minutes holding all my pictures, she commented again on my legs and asked me who showed me how to do my makeup and nails, when I replied no one she was very surprised . It's so good to share this with a woman I only wish it was my wife, I asked if she would like me to attend dressed, she replied that it wasn't a problem if I wished but after two sessions it's pretty clear to her I don't need to prove anything and it would be an unnecessary complication .

[suchacutie]

Teresa, I don't know the formalities in your case, but is the counsellor not in a position to ask your wife directly? It would seem most powerful coming from the professional, and she might have a harder time turning down the counsellor.

Just a thought.

[docrobbysherry]

I was quite worried after your 1st session, Teresa. I've had experiences with a number of counselors in my life. She seemed to have too many opinions rite off the bat.

But, after reading about your second session I feel better about her. She's gotten to the root of your problem. Which to my mind, is NOT your dressing but your SO. If she refuses to see or talk with a counselor u may, indeed, be beating a dead horse!

I'm confused why u r considering bring others into the mix? R u planning on coming out? Your 50+ comment caught my attention. Then, ok. But, I think with all the others having issues/questions, etc? The problem with your SO may just drag on. I see this as an issue u need to solve now!

U seem to worry about giving her an altimatum. Yet, if she refuses to discuss your T issues, she's in effect given u one!:straightface:

[Teresa]

Sherry,
Totally coming out has always been part of the deal, I can't hide behind closed doors anymore !
The people listed all Know about mt CDing, I've tried on more than one occasion to get my wife to counselling with me with and get a very firm no !

[Sara Jessica]

Teresa, there is no "deal". We adapt to what life throws our way. Decisions are made and some even consider the feelings of others.

In my opinion you need to get in touch with exactly what your place is in TG land before worrying about getting your wife on board. Is it about something you do or who you are?

If you identify more towards TS (who you are), then the counseling angle might come across at a later point as "let's give this a try before our marriage implodes under the weight of my need to transition". On the other hand, if you lean more towards CDing and you are simply looking for more time & space to do so, then it may be helpful to establish parameters which will help you express yourself and keep the negative feelings you are experiencing at bay. This could include outings, becoming social with others and perhaps designated quiet time at home that is not in her face (i.e. - before she wakes up / after she goes to bed).

What I see in your posts is a desperate desire to bring her on board and I'm here to say that this may never happen through no fault of hers. I've been there/done that but not by way of a counseling angle. Then a day came when I realized there would be no getting her involved and as a result, I have never been happier. She gives me my space and in turn I don't do much to put this in her face (although visible body mods are a constant reminder to her).

In short, what is your endgame and is it able to adapt?

[MsVal]

Teresa, you already know that you need to do what is right for YOU and your wife needs to do what is right for HER. You (and I by the way) cannot continue to "own" other's problems.

So - Do it. Do what is right for you.

Dress to your own satisfaction. Your wife will likely be upset. Remember: those are HER feelings and SHE will have to do what is right for HER.

Accept that there may be marital problems that are greater than those you already have, but they are problems that can be fixed. Your GD cannot be fixed and will certainly trouble you until you die.

Best wishes
MsVal

[Sara Jessica]

Dress to one's satisfaction without consideration of the life partner??? Why bother with counseling then?

[ReineD]

When I arrived back home my wife asked how it went ? I replied very well, she's so easy to talk to, and very attractive and even complemented on her shoes ! My wife replied Oh perhaps she may fancy you then !


Gosh, Teresa!! You seem determined to sabotage your situation at home? Sometime last year when your wife suggested you join a support group to attend dressed, you asked her if she really wanted her husband to spend time with other men while dressed! +?

If your wife is having a difficult time coming to terms with counseling sessions, please in the future do not make comments that might give rise to jealousy issues. :facepalm:



I'm afraid there may lie a problem, putting the counselling aside I'm beginning to be attracted to her , I really didn't need this complication. She sat there for some minutes holding all my pictures, she commented again on my legs and asked me who showed me how to do my makeup and nails, when I replied no one she was very surprised . It's so good to share this with a woman I only wish it was my wife, I asked if she would like me to attend dressed, she replied that it wasn't a problem if I wished but after two sessions it's pretty clear to her I don't need to prove anything and it would be an unnecessary complication .

Why would it be a complication?

Also if you tell your therapist you are beginning to feel attracted to her, she will suggest you see someone else and she would be correct. Is this still sexual for you?

[Tina_gm]

Ditto to what ReineD says. And I would add, why are you being so obsessively concerned about where you are on the TG scale? Are you looking for validation that you are or are not TS? One really doesn't need validation that they are from what I am reading and what others have said. Somehow you have managed to live 50, 60 years and survived as things are. I am not suggesting scrapping CDing, but even for myself, I remind myself, that unless I am going to go swim at the deep end and grow gills, there is more to life than worrying about the exact conditions of the shallow end. There is a bigger picture than dressing when it really comes down to it. My wife is my wife, and will not ever enjoy this aspect of me, want it, want me to do it, be attracted to it. I do find that as long as I do not overwhelm her with discussion, yet am not apologetic about my dressing and feminine aspects, basically just owning it so to speak, she deals with it much better. My own attitude of it helps her, and while I had read that before, I couldn't grasp what others were saying about it. We really are often the biggest cause for the elephant in the room.

[Teresa]

Reine,
You don't appear to pick up on the way my wife thinks , she makes those sort of comments fairly often, it's almost as if she wants to me to look elsewhere, to be truthful on this one I may well tell my counsellor of my feelings not to change her but to see if I can form a relationship . As I said previously this was moved from Loved Ones where I may have divulged more information about my marriage and my relationship, no doubt some of you are going to come down on me like a ton of bricks for what I've just said but I am at my wits end looking for contentment and happiness.


Sara Jessica,
I entered this session of counselling to try and find where I am on the gender line my counsellor has told me she can help with transition if I need to go that way, if not she is trying to help me come to terms with where I am in my marriage , at the moment I'm struggling to function, I'm so suppressed by my wife's acceptance and understanding, she knows the only way I can move forward is to discuss it with my wife. I need this counselling badly but it's a total waste if I can't discuss and implement the changes I desperately need to make !

Gendermutt
I am looking for validation on the gender scale, I appreciate there are certain points that most wives won't tolerate, not knowing is making it more difficult to persuade my wife what I'm expecting her to accept . I'm looking for some peace of mind and a few years of happiness ! Yes I have lived all those years and survived but I really am mentally falling apart , something drastic is going to happen and soon , my counsellor can see that from the truthful facts I've given her.

[Katey888]

... I am at my wits end looking for contentment and happiness.

... at the moment I'm struggling to function...

... Yes I have lived all those years and survived but I really am mentally falling apart , something drastic is going to happen and soon ...

Teresa - seems like you're coming again to a crisis point - and it's just occurred to me that probably the most fraudulent part of your life is your continued marriage. Sorry - but after all that you've said here (and in previous posts and messages) I can't believe that any really good friends wouldn't have already suggested you separate so that you both can live the lives you want to lead. Get yourself some space - you've come up with all sorts of rationales as to why you can't, but you need to find a way, because - based on your own comments above - you are like a beginner on a black run and that's only going to end in one way and in one place: painfully and hospitalised!

This thing with your counsellor: it's like a teenage infatuation - you've responded to her flattery and you appear to be obsessing on her... She's paid to listen to you - you're just likely to hurt yourself if you think there's anything more there... You're only seeing a Relate counsellor because it's on the NHS - that is probably not really what you need... :hugs:

A long time ago I was in a relationship that had atrophied so I know how hard it is to both recognise that and take the initiative - I'm sure as you get older, it becomes harder to see that the best action for both parties is sometimes to separate. It doesn't need to be irrevocable: it can be a trial - an extended vacation from each other. In truth, if you're scared to try this it's probably because you know the likely outcome, but that also means it's ultimately the right thing to do.

Katey x

[Marcelle]

Teresa,

It is quite clear in this post and your previous posts you are in pain and as I replied earlier IMHO you are experiencing a level of GID which is clearly interacting with your current concept of self and life situation. This is what you need to work on with your counselor. Specifically, you need to understand it in yourself first before you can sit and discuss honestly with your wife. You listed several options on getting your wife on board. Unfortunately, trying to get her on board before you even know the extent of your GID will go bad and be writhe with assumptions on your part and hers. If you tell her one thing only to discover in counseling it is something else well just saying . . . it will most likely go bad.

You may be CD, TG, TS, gender fluid, gender variant a lion, tiger or bear . . . oh my . . . but you don't truly know yet. That should be your first step. Keep your feelings/desires at arm's distance from your wife until you get a better understanding (order vice chaos). If she asks you how it is going and you know she really does not want to know at the present simply state . . . "things are going fine dear, taking it one step at a time and working through things" If she truly wants to know what you are talking about, explain in terms of coming to an understanding of yourself and don't get too bogged down in details. For example you may want to say "I am thinking that perhaps it might be a good idea to find time to explore this side of me in a venue we can both agree upon" vice "My counselor thinks I should dress as I please whenever I want." (I know she did not say that . . . example only). Always speak in terms of "you" not my counselor said or my counselor agrees. This is about you and using your counselor as a "validity check" might make your wife feel as though she is being ganged up on. Likewise, trying to get your family to convince her might also put her in the frame of mind that you are ganging up on her or trying to divide your family against her.

Look, I am not saying you have to walk around on egg shells, but you do need to be cognizant that this is a lot for your wife to digest. So bring her along slowly as you explore yourself through counseling. Don't rush, understand yourself and integrate that into your discussions. In the end it may never work and she will not understand (or perhaps she will) but you can't go from 0 - 100 without a few rest stops along the way.



... It's so good to share this with a woman I only wish it was my wife, I asked if she would like me to attend dressed, she replied that it wasn't a problem if I wished but after two sessions it's pretty clear to her I don't need to prove anything and it would be an unnecessary complication .

As a professional in the craft, don't read too much into interaction with your counselor as empathy is our stock and trade. We are not trying to trick our clients just provide a safe haven for them to discuss. What I see here is classic transference . . . you wish it were your wife. If it were your wife it would be problem solved. If you find it is becoming too distracting (your attraction to her) then you do need to tell her as it will only disrupt your counseling for gender identity issues.

My two cents . . . take if for what it is worth. :)

Cheers

Isha

[stefan37]

I'm going to go out in a limb here Teresa. You know where you are on the spectrum. I also believe you know what you have to do. The issue is you are looking for validation and maybe permission to do what is necessary to relieve your pain. I know how difficult that is with a spouse that accepted dressing and expression. I can't imagine what it's like with one that wants nothing to do with it.

Stop pushing to include your wife in therapy sessions with you. The last thing she wants to hear from your therapist is that you need to express more or even mention transition.

Transition!! Wow scary word. Yes it should sound scary because it's hard work. Many things in life will change. Some for the worst, some for the best. You are fearful for your marriage. But that could implode for many reasons you have stated without transition.

GD is very similar to fluids. It will eventually find it's own level. Things can be good until they are not. In your case they are not and you have yet to find your level. Unfortunately the only way to mitigate your pain is too explore. Your thoughts identity,, feelings, expression and interaction with the world. And as harsh as this sounds. If you need public interaction and expression, then either your wife is supportive or tolerant or it will end. Unless of course you need to transition. From your posts I would say it will end. You will need to ask yourself, and only you. What is my identity. How will I want to interact with people in five years. As male or female. Tough stuff. You have to do the hard work and heavy lifting to find relief. Nobody can do that for you. Your therapist can suggest things. But it's not her job to declare you are CD, or gender fluid, or TS. Only you can know that. She can offer ways to explore your identity. Ideas that you can try to see how comfortable you are. Try facial hair removal. See how that makes you feel? One of two sessions will not have any long lasting effects.

You are infatuated with your therapist as she has given you validation. Guess what. That is her job. Pursue a relationship with her and I guarantee you will poison the professional relationship with her and hasten the demise of your marriage.

Only you can find the relief and inner peace you need. And it's very possible that you will need to travel that road by yourself without your spouse. Take comfort that your children will probably be able to walk that path with you. Or at the very least support you emotionally on your way.

[Teresa]

Isha,
As usual you make so much sense, I can't disagree with a word, I guess this is what the forum is all about, you've been there and experienced all this and are so willing to pass it on.
I had a long conversation with my son this morning, he called to pick me up to help with his house extension and I told him because of total lack of sleep I just wasn't up to it and without warning I just sat down and started to deeply sob !
He was stuck to understand some of the aspects of it but came to the same conclusion as you , that is to know where I am with my gender before making any rash decisions and trying to drag my wife into counselling too soon . He also felt that that I was putting too much blame on my wife the situation I'm in, I tried to explain that I was trying so much not to hurt her or anyone else but in the process I couldn't work out which direction to take. We both agreed that some point some hurt has to happen, but hopefully with the right decision . We discussed at length the implications of a separation also she had told him that she came close to a divorce twenty years ago when I first came out to her, annoyingly she never mentioned it to me , looking back that's possibly when we should have agreed to do it.
I have a slightly different perspective from my daughter she is a counsellor in speech and language so she has a different view of therapy and is annoyed that my wife won't attend counselling, in my daughter's eyes better sooner than later.
With these slightly different views from my children I think your point about not involving them could be a valid one, as they're adults I can't stop them saying something but I've made it clear that not at the expense of taking sides. I appreciate she dealing with enough so the point about not appearing to gang up is taken .

Stefan,
You make the point as Isha does of finding the GD level , I can see the logic in it and this is what these sessions are all about my counsellor appears to be capable of dealing with GD issues, without breaking confidential guidelines she told me of other cases she's currently dealing with. As you say take what she says only as a guide the difficult part at the moment is knowing my own mind. At the moment this is my sticking point what am I denying myself what am I not accepting because of outside pressures ?

I take everyone's point about my relationship with my counsellor, OK I'm not a teenager with some infatuated crush. As a professional photographer for thirty years I became very good at reading between the lines, seeing beyond the professional veneer , you have to do that for successful portraiture, and I'm seeing an intelligent attractive woman this is aside from the way she smartly dresses !

I can control those feelings enough to let her do her professional job, I've got sixteen weeks to see how things go .

[Suzanne F]

Only the second session and have hit the wall !

The second session went very well so much stuff coming out from my past, not all relevant but helping to clear my mind . Still not a clear idea where I am on the gender line because I'm still being so suppressed with my dressing . My counsellor is trying every angle to try and persuade me to get my wife to attend , I knew I'd hit this wall fairly soon, I have two weeks to work on this before the next appointment, so how do I do it ?

To me my options are 1. directly ask again.

2. get my son and daughter together give them the full facts of why I'm seeking gender counselling and show them all my pictures, perhaps together they could convince her what the outcome could be if I can't come to terms with my CDing and gender issues.

3. try the same thing but with her brother and sister, this option takes the problem away of putting my children in the middle of the situation .

4. tell my wife that whether she agrees or not that I'm going to dress more , if she can't deal with it then the counsellor is more than willing to talk it through why I need to dress more to find a level and possibly get answers to my gender question .

5. tell her straight that I can't live like this anymore and that we should go separate ways.

6. leave everything as it is and wait for me to totally fall apart.

Sadly all this comes to not being able to just to sit down and sensibly talk it through, apparently I have 16 sessions available to me under the NHS and my counsellor said she's going to use everyone to try and move this forward, she's not going to give up on me !

When I arrived back home my wife asked how it went ? I replied very well, she's so easy to talk to, and very attractive and even complemented on her shoes ! My wife replied Oh perhaps she may fancy you then ! I'm afraid there may lie a problem, putting the counselling aside I'm beginning to be attracted to her , I really didn't need this complication. She sat there for some minutes holding all my pictures, she commented again on my legs and asked me who showed me how to do my makeup and nails, when I replied no one she was very surprised . It's so good to share this with a woman I only wish it was my wife, I asked if she would like me to attend dressed, she replied that it wasn't a problem if I wished but after two sessions it's pretty clear to her I don't need to prove anything and it would be an unnecessary complication .


Teresa
I have read your threads here for two years. I don't believe I have ever commented. I am going to try now. Please listen.

You are responsible for you. Almost every thread I read centers in your wife's disapproval. She is not going to change. She has not budged an inch in two years and I don't think any counseling will move her. She is not willing. Acceptance on your part is the key. The only thing that you can change is you.

I had to detach from my wife. It was so difficult. However, if I was going to be honest about who I was I had to concentrate on me not my wife's desires and thoughts. In the end this was more fair to her. She finally was able to see he real me.

This detachment lead to me deciding to transition. Yes this is scary! So now my wife has the opportunity to decide if she loves the real me. Not the one version I was presenting to her. This sounds harsh but it is really the only fair thing I could do for her. I had been dishonest with myself and her.

I am not saying that all cross dressers should just abandon any compromise with their spouses. However, if you are having gender confusion you should address it honestly. The only way I believe you can do this is by independent evaluation. Not through the lenses of being a couple. Once you have done the work the spouse deserves to know the outcome. She is then free to make her own decision about how her life with you looks.

We only live once. We owe it to ourselves to be authentic. Yes it took me 48 years to really accept myself. I don't wish that fate for anyone. It is never too late though! We get to start over every day. Yes it is completely scary!!!!!! However, the rewards are great. If your spouse decides she is in then you will truly know that she loves the real you. Not the hidden version you have concocted to please her.

Suzanne

[Teresa]

Suzanne,
Today I managed to get a level, non volatile conversation with my wife, basically it came down to very much to what you say .
My wife is still working and while she's still employed she point blank refuses to see any counsellor, she can't take that on board as well. Being told what would make me happy with my CDing is not going to happen, its' up to me to find happiness with the level of CDing first and then see if she can live with it . She's not denying me trying to find contentment and happiness but she made it clear she may not be part of it.

She feels she's flexed enough by allowing me to wear nighties in bed, but allowing me to dress while she's at home and sit in the evening to watch TV isn't going to happen again. she just wants the man she married in those circumstances.

[ReineD]

She's not denying me trying to find contentment and happiness but she made it clear she may not be part of it.

We've had this conversation before. It seems you want your wife's full involvement from the get go. That rarely happens. With most couples, it starts slowly and after some years, many wives gain some degree of confidence that their husbands are still the same people, they get used to the idea that their husbands dress, and they no longer feel threatened by seeing their husbands in women's clothing. It takes TIME.

A lot of couples start out just the way that your wife suggests. So join a support group, go out regularly, and you will see that these outings will become a part of your and your wife's routines. Eventually she will have enough experience under her belt, she will see you come back from your outings all in one piece and that you are the same person you always have been, and it will cease to be so difficult for her to see you dressed. It takes GETTING USED TO.

But if you expect her to be as accepting from the onset as some of the wives here are with their SO's (after years), you'll continue to make yourself and perhaps your wife miserable.

[Teresa]

Reine,
It really is a struggle to get to the bottom line, but thinking about this morning I realise that neither of us aren't saying we don't love each other, admittedly we don't say it enough and the harsh words don't help from either side but basically she can't live with my CDing and I can't live without it !
I accept it fully now but still don't really understand what's driving it, the point I made in , "more than CDing thread".
I have to use all my counselling sessions to try and get that answer, I told my wife yesterday that I wasn't sure anymore how much I needed to be a woman, throwing all the other labels at her are going to totally confuse her ! This is one of the mistakes she making about joint counselling but then of course she doesn't want to know and hear that she may lose her husband in that way.
The problem is now I'm trying so hard to step forward and she's taking steps back.
I don't need her to validate my CDing , I need to satisfy a desire that's always been there of wanting to share it totally with a woman, as a companion and yes sexually ! It's that rejection of at least half of my being that is harming and hurting me so much, as you may recall it drove me to desperate measures some twenty years ago.

She may or may not come round at some point as you say, but time is running out and mentally I need some answers and take action soon. She suggested that I go and get some medication ( antidepressants ) but as I found last time, many of the negatives disappear and the CDing becomes more acceptable and loses it's boundaries, so it's counter productive, I'm possibly happier but only because of my comfort levels with CDing are greater which I doubt the rest of the family will want to see.

The inevitable does look like parting of our ways , I mustn't see it as I love my CDing more than my family, everyone my wife has spoken to has said they couldn't live with a CDer, maybe I should be fair and take that pain away but seperation isn't going to be pain free either !

[stefan37]

You have lived with this condition for a very long time. You have to have some idea what it means to you. The difficulty we have to accepting who we are is our circumstances. We have invested the majority of our life in a male existence. We have marriages, kids, families etc.

I've always thought deep down I might be transsexual. But there was no way I would admit it.
I mean who wants to blow up their life. But GD is unpredictable. Things are good until they are not. We have no control over it, nor the power it can and will exert.

If you want to figure out what you need to do. Start digging deep to identify your true identity. That's where the hard work lies. This counselor may at some point suggest hormones. You may find that estrogen mitigates your desires to dress. Stops the noise in your head. Many of us find the desire to dress goes away after introduction of estrogen. It could normalize your life and allow to continue. HRT is certainly used by those transitioning. There are many that also find relief and are then able to find relief and live their lives comfortably.

[Teresa]

Sorry Stefan I should have said antidepressants not medication dealing with GD issues .

[stefan37]

I knew what you meant. I was speaking to your therapist at some point suggesting Estrogen to you. .

[ReineD]

I realise that neither of us aren't saying we don't love each other, admittedly we don't say it enough and the harsh words don't help from either side but basically she can't live with my CDing and I can't live without it !

But you've just finished writing that your wife is OK with you wearing a nightie at night, dressing when she is not there, and a while back you wrote she was OK with you going out dressed to support groups!! So how does this mean that she cannot live with the CDing? If your definition of "living with the CDing" means her full participation now, then I'm telling you that it won't happen just yet. But, this doesn't mean that she will not become inured to it in the future! If what you want mostly is the ability to dress at home because YOU are not prepared to come out to the world as transsexual, then why do you even entertain the idea that you might have GD? MtFs with GD can no longer live as male and this means being out to everyone as a woman, not just dressing up to stay home.

You need to stop projecting so far into the future, and just go ahead and start dressing up now to go out in the next town over if you are not ready to do so in your neighborhood. It doesn't matter what's driving it. You want to dress, that's all that matters, so what is stopping you from figuring out ways that you can do this?




I told my wife yesterday that I wasn't sure anymore how much I needed to be a woman, throwing all the other labels at her are going to totally confuse her !

I'm not suggesting you throw any labels at anyone, not even at yourself.

You mention you're not sure anymore how much you need to be a woman. What does this mean? Would you be prepared NOW to undertake full electrolysis, take hormones with the reduction of male sexual functioning, get FFS, BA, SRS, legal name and gender marker change? If the answer to these is no, if you're not ready to start these things any time soon, then again what is stopping you from doing what you do want to do now, which is to dress?

Don't discount the idea that if you begin to feel free with expressing a female presentation and you feel unfettered to dress on a regular basis (even if your wife is not there), these other things will fall into place and I think you'll be in a much happier space.



I need to satisfy a desire that's always been there of wanting to share it totally with a woman, as a companion and yes sexually ! It's that rejection of at least half of my being that is harming and hurting me so much, as you may recall it drove me to desperate measures some twenty years ago.

Sorry Teresa, but this in itself is not GD. GD is the need to LIVE in the gender opposite than birth sex, to be perceived by ALL others as that gender, and to rid oneself of the male (if MtF) or female (if FtM) sexual characteristics that conflict with one's inner gender identity. It's not about having sex with someone as your target gender. Gosh Teresa ... go ask 100 post-op TSs how easy it is to find sexual partners if they are starting afresh. You will be dismayed at the answers. Generally speaking, GGs & gay men need partners with penises who look masculine, and GMs & lesbians want partners who are feminine and who didn't use to have penises. Pre-op or non-op TSs have a better chance of finding sexual partners, but this is because there are men who distinctly prefer feminine-looking people who have penises. If you are not attracted to men, then this will not help you even if you should choose to transition without SRS.

The people who maintain long-term relationships throughout transition do still have partners, but the quality of their sex lives change. Many TSs still in relationships with their GG spouses have no more sex life with them (generally ... I'm sure there are exceptions). What holds them together is their long-lasting emotional bonds. I say this because I've heard it directly from the GGs who are still married to transitioned TSs and from the transitioned TSs in this forum who stayed married and who posted about their sex lives.



She may or may not come round at some point as you say, but time is running out and mentally I need some answers and take action soon. She suggested that I go and get some medication ( antidepressants ) but as I found last time, many of the negatives disappear and the CDing becomes more acceptable and loses it's boundaries, so it's counter productive, I'm possibly happier but only because of my comfort levels with CDing are greater which I doubt the rest of the family will want to see.

I'm not sure I understand this. Does it mean that when you are on antidepressants, you have fewer internal negative reactions to the dressing, and so you feel freer about doing things like going out? Then what is wrong with that?

You mentioned last year that your wife is close to retirement. If all you want to do now is dress at home, then I can understand why the prospect of no longer being able to dress all day at home is worrisome for you. This is why you need to start going out fully dressed, in the next town over if need be. You need to start preparing for your wife's retirement in a constructive way and trust that things will fall into place once you stop talking and start DOING.



The inevitable does look like parting of our ways , I mustn't see it as I love my CDing more than my family, everyone my wife has spoken to has said they couldn't live with a CDer, maybe I should be fair and take that pain away but seperation isn't going to be pain free either !

You'll be in for a horrible surprise if you think that your sex life will improve should you separate, especially since you are not attracted to men. You might find a lonely divorced or widowed GG in her 60s who wants male companionship and so she will at first be willing to have fun with kink in the bedroom, but often this changes once the relationship morphs to commitment and chances are you will eventually be in the same quandary you are in now, plus you will be in a divorced situation with your adult children, which believe me is not an ideal situation to be in.

Also if you do not want to go out fully dressed, if the reason for a divorce is to continue to dress at home after your wife retires and having your own place is the only way you can see doing this, then this is your call to make. But please don't mistake this for being a woman, if you cannot see yourself going out dressed publicly or undertaking all the steps necessary for physical, legal, and social transition. And be prepared for the realization that, once you are free to dress all day without having to worry about what will happen after your wife retires, you will find a lesser need to dress. I'm saying this based on the assumptions that you are not, in fact, ready for a physical, legal, and social transition. If you are TS and are ready for these things, then I agree it doesn't look as if your marriage would survive.

[Teresa]

Reine,
First point about wearing nighties, she neither wants to see me or touch when wearing them even though we sleep in the same bed. She has moved the goal posts on most things and approving of me going out to support groups is another of them ,as is dressing in the house when she was home.
Maybe I've misunderstood what GD means but I thought it meant to be uncertain about gender traits rather than believing I'm TS.
Her interpretation of living like a woman is to dress full time not to making physical changes so using other labels with her would not make sense, unless a counsellor had been allowed to explain it all to her. I'm not that naive to think dressing full time is a bed of roses everytime I think of it I realise the difficulties to overcome.

Ok I am confused by my mental state but certainly would not go pumping any chemicals into my body unless I was certain that is what I really want.

Point taken about your full description of sexual preferences, all I know is something is screwing me up and has been for most of my life, maybe I'm pinning too much on my current counselling sessions, but I can only make decisions if I can see things clearer !

Last time I was on Prozac I felt OK about my dressing, but when my wife asked what sort of day I'd had, I would tell her if I had the need to dress or not, if I did how much better I felt, eventually she tired of it and didn't want to hear it , despite seeing me with a smile on my face.
This point about retirement was discussed recently, all she said was we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, end of discussion.

Reine you may recall that I mentioned I haven't had a sex life for almost ten years , not even intimate contact ! My wife has no doubts that I would find someone else if we parted she knows what I'm like . She's told everyone that she's made sure that her savings and valuables will go to the children and not to any new partner of mine should anything happen to her !
Separation is never good but when children are involved it's much harder, of course it's going to tear me apart if I lose contact with my grandchildren, my son and daughter have assured me it won't happen , it's good to hear that but there aren't any guarantees.
At sixty four I should have a choice how I want to live, my counsellor is concerned at the level of suppression I'm living with, I can't say exactly which direction my life would take, all I know at the moment is I have no direction because I'm going round in circles .
I've said this before but I feel my wife is using my CDing as an excuse to treat me like a punchbag, if other parts of our marriage were OK I could live with that , because for whatever reason I'm not functioning anymore, comments like I just want the man I married are hard to take when I can't respond.

[ReineD]

Maybe I've misunderstood what GD means but I thought it meant to be uncertain about gender traits rather than believing I'm TS.

According to the WPATH: Gender Dysphoria (previously termed Gender Identity Disorder) "is characterized by a strong and persistent crossgender identification and a persistent discomfort with one’s sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex, causing clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning".

This means that a MtF suffering from GD cannot function as a male and this means in all areas of life, not just dressing at home. This is also the definition for being transsexual, since obviously the treatment for MtF TSs who suffer the debilitating condition of being male is to transition from their male sex to a female sex.

Being uncertain is par for the course for many CDers who feel suppressed in their feminine presentation. They cannot express themselves and so the need to do so takes on epic proportions. If you took a poll of people who know they are CD, many will tell you they went through periods when they wondered whether they were TS or not, or gay or not too for that matter.