Rle

[Nigella]

R eal
L ife
E experience

Now lets discuss :)

[stefan37]

Wherever any individual shows the world a different gender expression. It gets real very fast. Life happens to all of us. It's the experience that differs.

RLE pertains to transition when an individual lives 24/7 add their target gender. There is no fall back when times get challenging. You live, eat, socialize, and work as your target gender.
The goal of RLE is to integrate into society as a member of your target gender. Some may or may not have surgeries. But if you were to meet that person and spend any extensive time, they would consistently interact with you as target gender.
( I am using terms to include both MTF and ftm).

Anything less than living 24/7 is not RLE. Yes there are aspects of it you will experience. But there can no way to know because you are not living it. There are many that are transitioning, have found a comfortable place as gender fluid. But until you go full-time are you experiencing RLE.

I tend to define a person going full-time when they legally change their name, gender to the target, inform, their family, friends and employers or in my case employees and clients.

[Kimberly Kael]

I'm always amazed when I see posts that give the impression RLE is a hardship, or an unrealistic expectation. That should be a warning sign for anyone contemplating transition, because the explicit purpose of transitioning is being accepted into society as belonging to the gender you identify as. RLE isn't a stumbling block on the way to the goal, it is the goal. Is it an intimidating step? Sure. It's also 100% inevitable for anyone who is going to proceed and if it doesn't feel right, then you've learned something important.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

right..

RLE is the whole point...

and going through it is hugely informative and helpful unless you are gaming the system for a surgery..

that is a gorgeous picture Kimberly, and you look pretty good too

[PretzelGirl]

I agree that RLE is the goal. My first day of work, I didn't pause in my car, I jumped out and hustled in as my life awaited.

Each of us approach transition differently. Some go from zero public exposure to 100% in one day. Others gradually increase their exposure. I did it gradual over a few years and at the point of deciding on transition, I didn't present at work, with in-laws, grandkids, and then select places. Now work, in-laws, and grandkids were because they didn't know and that was okay because it is part of the transition that I was then deciding on. But the select places tells me the difference in my "partial RLE" experience and "100% RLE".

I went to my electrologists in male mode for a long time as I didn't want to be seen with the whiskers as Sue. I avoided car repair and tire shops as it felt too testosterone driven. While I was long out to my general practitioner, I presented male to my dentist and optometrist to avoid the discomfort (although I worked with an optician in the same office to get appropriate frames for Sue). So if it felt tough, I had the room to avoid it. Once I decided I was on the path to transition, then there couldn't be any more avoidance. I had to learn to face everyone and deal with the social situations, and I did. While a lot of it was a problem only in my mind, having options does make a difference in experience.

I think of it this way. Let's say you want to learn to swim. If you do laps across the shallow end, if you are tired and don't feel like it anymore, you just stand up. If you do laps across the deep end, you are going to drown if you don't keep going.

So I learned a ton before going to the deep end. And because of that experience in the shallow end, I was able to handle the deep end. Because of that, I really recommend gradual transition whenever possible as coping skills can build.

[becky77]

That's the problem, some people think RLE is something you tick off to pass the gatekeepers.

RLE is the start of the rest of your life, it's a tool for your own certainly that what you are doing is correct, there is still time to realise you made a mistake and surgery isn't for you, or it cements your identity and if you want surgery, you will know it's an informed decision.

It's not something you manipulate to get the go ahead for surgery, but then are these the same people that think HRT gets you Boobies!

I've heard it a lot from people going to the NHS gender clinics "wear this" "say that" etc, how to trick the system. The system and RLE are there to protect us, not slow down or impede.

RLE is a very specific term indicating you are in a process, although experience living as a woman can be very valid, if it's not full-time it's not RLE.

[Rianna Humble]

I went part time before transition. Traveling to and from work as Rianna, working 4 days out of 7 as Robert then changing back to travel home. That was not my Real Life Experience. Although I learned some things in that period, I was not full-time and had the refuge of switching in circumstances where it might have been unpopular to be seen as me.

The day that I began my transition, I began my RLE and I changed my name all at the same time; there was no going back

However, I also withdrew from some things that I had previously spent a lot of time with (mainly around my political activities). When I started going to the Gender Clinic, I was encouraged to re-engage in those sorts of activities - not as some kind of "extra chore" or "final test", nor was it as some kind of "gate-keeping" exercise but to broaden the range of my interactions with the real world - and I'm glad that I did.

At the moment, my health is going in the wrong direction to allow me to aspire to Gender Confirmation Surgery, but I interact with everybody as the real me and there is no room for doubt that I am Rianna

[Kaitlyn Michele]

RLE is an excellent tool to eliminate doubt

[kimdl93]

Here's my view from the borderline. There are real life experiences and Real Life Experience. Living part time and publicly so, will give one a taste of what is in store, but I see full time, everywhere and with everyone as the goal and an overt pronouncement of identity. The part timer's life, my life, often feels like covert action.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

right...RLE is a specific thing and it helps communications to keep it that way...

it does not devalue others experience as being not real... what is missed is that by trying to broaden what RLE means, its devalues the actual experience of RLE..

"part time" RLE means cross dressing... and frankly that's what i did before i decided to transition and do RLE... over time i realized it was doing nothing for me until i made it "real"...

[becky77]

Here's my view from the borderline. There are real life experiences and Real Life Experience.

Yes and real life experiences are not to be dismissed.
But RLE has only one meaning (in the TS world anyway) = full-time experience in your preferred gender, over a period of time (usually 2 years).

Typically this starts when you can provide proof of name change and sometimes they want to see something from your place of work.

[Badtranny]

Thanks Nigella, fantastic thread.

This is what happens when people talk about their REAL experience on the way to transition. It's very personal and it will take as long as you need it to but at some point you have to pull the pin, or it isn't a transition at all is it.

Like Sue said, those early days are fraught with angst about where we may need to 'man up'. Eventually, you're full time and maybe you just stop going to certain places. It's all part of the process. Almost full time, means the same thing as NOT full time and frankly if you're not taking full advantage of your middle path status, than you're crazy. I would have LOVED to just be a dude at work and continue to be Misty on the weekends or whatever. For me that wasn't an option. I didn't want to have secrets and I know full well that it would also mean work events, hiding things in my car and/or office, being careful about where I was seen, etc etc. My transition was not about being a woman, it was about coming OUT and being free to express myself 100% of the time.

My RLE started the day I got home from Mexico after FFS and BA. Six weeks later I was in the parking lot at work trembling and trying to work up the courage to walk in. Six weeks later my name was changed, and it's been quite an experience.

[I Am Paula]

My endo asked for one hour of therapy for my HRT scrip. While I was talking to the therapist, I mentioned for her to make a note that this was also the start to my RLE. She said I had been full time already for over a year, my RLE was done, and to ask her when I needed a letter to that effect.
Dr. Brassard wanted letters from a shrink, and a therapist, but nothing confirming RLE.
Personally, I think one year FULL time (no changing to visit your Mom) is really ness. I don't know anybody that transition has back fired on, but I've read accounts. Also, it's FUN!

[Angela Campbell]

I also consider RLE to be the same as full time. Either you are or your not. There is much to learn and get used to in order to transition fully. Having a safety net avoids the pressures and experiences that only come with transition. If the goal is transition to the point of Srs I think it is invaluable.

I also consider full time ( RLE) to include legal name change, and every one knowing at home, work, and everywhere. I took 2 months off work and had ffs, name change and returned to work and life as Angela. Never looked back. I did live part time for quite some time before I transitioned.

[Peggie Lee]

Before I transitioned RLE was held up to me as a trial and test of being able to live and function in your new gender. Since the day I went 24/7 as Peggie It has been the best year and half of my life my work, my ID changes, my family, my true friends that stuck with me and to all the new friends I've made. I have no regrets even with some trying times in there.

Peggie lee

[Cheyenne Skye]

I think a lot of people still see the RLE as some kind of test. Like you could back out and revert to your assigned gender at any time during the "test" if the going gets too tough. If you've gotten to the point of living 24/7 in your target gender and still need an "escape plan" then maybe you shouldn't be transitioning.

Personally I was "part time" for about a year before I started 24/7. That was the day I posted my coming out letter on the message board at work in preparation for my legal name change. I had been on HRT for a year and a half and I was sick (literally and figuratively) of switching back to male for work everyday. Sure I was nervous when I hit send on my message but who wouldn't be. That was the point of no return and I knew it. It's a bell that can't be unrung. Now I'm just me. Fifteen months in so far. Don't know if I'll ever have any surgery. It's not a priority. If I decide to, I'm pretty sure I have enough "experience" that my therapist will gladly write the necessary letters.

[Michelle789]

I see RLE as an opportunity to live as your authentic self. I think RLE serves several purposes. I'm writing from the point of view of a MTF, but this applies to FTM too, with gender terms or pronouns reversed.

1. This is your opportunity to live as your authentic self. It's not a test. I would think if you're not enthused about doing RLE, than maybe you should re-think transition. I was really excited to be able to have any opportunity to present as a woman, and there came a point where it became unbearable to dress and interact as male. I am thankful for this opportunity. The only thing that would have been a test or drugery was having to revert back to male mode for any reason. Today is the one year anniversary of the very last time I ever dressed as male. I have never looked back since then. I say, seriously, good riddance to boy mode. I am so glad to have finally dumped it.

2. This is an opportunity to see whether or not transition is for you. You can expect to deal with mis-gendering, stares, and microagressions from either strangers or people you're in close proximity to, such as friends, co-workers, and family. You have to be prepared to come out to everybody in your life. You need to be prepared for, and to deal with the consequences of a transphobic and misogynistic world to transition. If you can't deal with it, this may be a good indicator you shouldn't transition. If you think RLE is some kind of test or drugery, than maybe transition isn't for you. Yes, it sucks being clocked and facing the consequences of getting clocked, but part of the deal is we get to be ourselves and deal with getting clocked.

3. This is your chance to integrate with the world as a woman. We get to experience everything from going to the supermarket, drugstore, mall, auto mechanic, dentist, doctors, AA, church, non AA/non trans social events, hang out with friends, talk on the phone, eat dinner, travel, watch TV, go on the computer, work, pray, meditate, and run errands, as your target gender. It is your chance to learn how to deal with unwanted attention from men, to learn how to deal with men in a work or social environment, to learn how to socialize among women, to unlearn male behaviors and mannerisms, to let female behaviors and mannerisms come out, to learn the ins and outs of female social behavior.


According to some of what I've seen written, you are neither experiencing RLE nor living full time until you legally change your name.

I disagree with some of you that you need to change your name & gender to be doing RLE or full-time. I just asked a friend, who is MTF here in LA, and she said that to get GCS, you need to be presenting as a woman and on HRT for a year, and have two letters of recommendation from two different therapists. One year of RLE is often considered the requirement for getting GCS, and I believe it might have been two years in the past. But legal name & gender change is, at least in California, not required to get GCS. I tend to use GCS requirements as my definition for RLE and for full-time.

So I consider you full-time and doing RLE if

1. You are on HRT.

2. You live as a woman 24/7, and never go back. (For FTM, living as a man 24/7)

I also add a few things.

3. You are out to everybody whom you interact with in real life.

4. If you're not out to anyone, and you have plans of seeing that person, then you should tell them before seeing them. And yes do interact with them as your target gender.

5. If you haven't come out to somebody who lives in your area, but you don't see them, you might bump into them in public somewhere. Introduce yourself as your target name & gender.

It is not required that you

1. Legally change your name & gender

2. Out yourself to people who live in a different city whom you won't be seeing

3. Out yourself to people who live in the same area whom you haven't seen for years or have no plan on seeing


So basically, you should be able to present, live, and function, as a woman i all situations. There is no going back when the times get tough, or because you don't feel comfortable coming out to someone.

I do think if you're going through the phase where you go back and forth between male and female modes, although not technically full-time or RLE, you are still gaining real life experience. Every moment you get presenting is still giving you experience. Even if it is not offically RLE, you're still gaining experience, and it still counts for something. Not towards your GCS requirement. But you're still gaining something out of every time you present as female (or male if you're FTM).

[Beth-Lock]

I see RLE as an opportunity ... .

I had found doing it part time and stealth was no longer workable . no therapist would help me I thought .. I just made up my mind to go ahead and do it one day and then went ahead with it, on my own, abruptly with nobody else's permission .. I was desperate . and it did not work for long, I found I did need a therapist after all, I was not strong enough to cope with it on my own, and luckily I found one almost right away, when I got into that crisis so soon after going full time .. don't do it that way like I did ...

.
....drugery was having to revert back to male mode for any reason. .

It also screwed up my female voice, so it never seemed to stay with me, stable after that, for years and years it would wander all over the pitch scale and worse ...back to male talking style. Eventually, I was not going back, not for anybody, not even for an hour ..


. Eventually, you're full time and maybe you just stop going to certain places. It's all part of the process. ....
..Yes, some places are to avoid...


.. I would have LOVED to just be a dude at work and continue to be Misty on the weekends or whatever. For me that wasn't an option.. I was not working, (I was retired) but I had several years of testing dressing in public...people in public are the best critics to get you to do better at passing...I dressed almost all the day and night, at home, behind closed doors in addition.. and so the start of RLE was just the final test, after years of getting good at passing and during which I had got my act almost perfect....there is something to be said for the gradual approach, even if you don't count it as the RLE and I guess you shouldn't ..perhaps it even helped me to pass without FFS .. there are a lot of tricks that work like the stage magic of an illusionist ...


. I didn't want to have secrets and I know full well that it would also mean .... hiding things....being careful about where I was seen, etc etc. My transition was not about being a woman, it was about coming OUT and being free to express myself 100% of the time..

It was the secrets, getting caught, and having my reputation being ruined and people I had to deal with, laughing behind my back, that made me miserable, and the situation starting to become unbearable so it drove me to take the final step, going full time, yet I was headed that way anyway, it just would have taken a bit longer.. It was a very, very messy time towards the end..


the . . . anniversary of the very last time I ever dressed as male. I have never looked back since then. .

It is the spirit in which you do it, if you play with it a bit ...... variety is the spice of life, What is gender difference in dress anyway as a modern grrl I can mix and match and dress any way I like from time to time, just for fun.. but I try to avoid getting spotted doing anything too extreme in public like a complete role reversal reversion . but it is not rejecting my new gender .. it is a matter of either exercising my freedom and flexibility of attire or kinging .. other real grrls do it too, even those never trans


. This is an opportunity to see whether or not transition is for you. .

Not really. I knew I wanted it, and that I needed it, yet some bad things happened when I had to back up and regroup ...I had failures, but I always came back, like when I was giving up smoking, after going back a couple of times and the left over ciggies having gone stale, I saw no further point, or sort of ...in going back to smoking again .. just a waste of cigarettes and money to go back to doing it again...


You can expect to deal with mis-gendering, stares, and microagressions ... .
... some people are just bad news and don't need much of an excuse to show their bad side ..


Yes, it sucks being clocked and facing the consequences of getting clocked ...
. . . but occasionally you just have to laugh quietly about it ...


We get to experience everything from going to the supermarket, drugstore, mall, auto mechanic, dentist, doctors, AA, church, non AA/non trans social events, hang out with friends, talk on the phone, eat dinner, travel, watch TV, go on the computer, work, pray, meditate, and run errands, as your target gender... .

..and it is surprising how nice people can be too ..sometimes, being nice to you as trans and other times, being nice to you since you are a woman, or even just if you evoke that response by dressing as a woman, even when they know you are trans..


... to unlearn male behaviors and mannerisms, to let female behaviors and mannerisms come out, to learn the ins and outs of female social behavior....

... I had no idea I needed to grab hold of a man from the other side, for a slow dance -- I guess he was puzzled for a moment too, but then he decided jiving would be more appropriate for us ...

.
According to some of what I've seen written, you are neither experiencing RLE nor living full time until you legally change your name... .. I disagree with some of you that you need to change your name & gender to be doing RLE or full-time. .

. me too, but I used some tricks recounted elsewhere including in my old posts to get around it legally ...



So I consider you full-time and doing RLE if
1. You are on HRT..

in my case not medically possible, but SRS did alter my hormone balance, the latest SOC revision was changed to allow SRS without HRT just in time before my letters, etc., got delayed too long, just 6 months ...of course it is to cover only exceptional cases, (as Dr. Brassard told me, not something he expected to approve for everyone), and my case was an allowable exception


I also add a few things.

3. You are out to everybody whom you interact with in real life. . .. Yup, with bells on ...


5. If you haven't come out to somebody who lives in your area, but you don't see them, you might bump into them in public somewhere. Introduce yourself as your target name & gender..

.. might have prevented one instance of a woman seeing me in my new gender for the first time, bursting out in surprise, blaspheming and very loudly so, right out in front of every one ...later she was real nice to me ..


So basically, you should be able to present, live, and function, as a woman in all situations. There is no going back when the times get tough, or because you don't feel comfortable coming out to someone..

..It was one of the worst things in my transition -- detransitioning, even though it was very brief ..


I do think if you're going through the phase where you go back and forth between male and female modes, although not technically full-time or RLE, you are still gaining real life experience. .

... yes, but that if done as I did, in desperation and failure, really, really sucks ...



. Even if it is not officially RLE, you're still gaining experience, and it still counts for something. ...

it was self imposed and when I celebrated the two year point, (of RLE), my therapist whom I had eventually found, said that was old and unnecessary these days .. but the champagne tasted just as good anyway ...and I got some nice gifts, even a bouquet of flowers. . .
..-

Why isn't it important to legally change your name and gender? I'm other words are full time, but not really. Your paychecks will need to be written to your birth gender name and deposited in your bank account with your legal birth name. Your driver's license, passport, health records and the list goes on that tells the world you interact with you are your birth gender.

In my case, I was living full time. and people I had been dealing with at the bank, doctor etc. knew I had just changed gender, so they accepted paper work like cheques, in my old name, while addressing me with my new, female name in person, yet I had not yet even changed my name officially, I just started, at least in the last two months before my legal name change, using the name I was changing my name to.. before that, I asked to be addressed in a female-sounding variation on my male name .. I also changed my credit cards to change the male first name to a female sounding version, .. a little smooth talking over the telephone to the credit card company worked, as the bank suggested, when the bank would not change them without an official legal name change certificate... one way or another, in my particular case, it just worked out fairly well.....but I won't lie to you, there were some awkward moments due to my identification documents not matching and I really hated to face them..Of course I was eager to get all my documentation changed as soon as possible, but it did drag on in some parts of it, and still is not all done, after 6 years as it has been particularly problematic for some some organizations to get it right and/or for me to get around to work on it with them...I think it was all legal .. just don't lie to a police officer about what your real, still your own legal name is.. they then will wonder if you are a criminal--not good

[stefan37]

Why isn't it important to legally change your name and gender? In other words you say are full time, but not really. Your paychecks will need to be written to your birth gender name and deposited in your bank account with your legal birth name. Your driver's license, passport, health records and the list goes on that tells the world you interact with you are your birth gender.

[Michelle789]

@stefan37

It is important to legally change documents. Most of us have that goal in mind. This is an integral part of transition. But I don't understand how someone hasn't started RLE until you've changed your documents. My understanding, and I may be completely wrong, is that to get GCS, you need one year of living 24/7 as a woman (RLE) and must be on HRT for one year. You are not required to change your name and gender to get GCS. In fact, some states require you to get GCS before you can change your gender. Stefan, please correct me if I'm wrong.

But if I'm understanding WPATH standards correctly, you need one year RLE before getting GCS, but you're not required to change your name or gender to get GCS, therefore to be in RLE, you do not need to change your name and gender. Maybe I'm being too logical. But logically speaking, you do not need to change your name & gender to be considered in RLE. Maybe to some people, emotionally speaking, it may be a necessity to change name & gender to be considered RLE. And most of us will eventually change name & gender, it's a matter of when and not if.

And my understanding is that RLE is a way to determine whether or not transition is for you. So maybe you should do some RLE before changing your name & gender. Just saying, rather than change your name & gender, do one year RLE, then decide that you want to go back.



Also, in California, many doctors and dentists allow you to use your preferred name and gender even though it legally hasn't been changed. Bank accounts, of course, you need the court order to change name & gender. I haven't changed my name & gender yet, but all my medical records are under Michelle. All my doctors and dentists call me Michelle, and have gender as female. In California, this is perfectly legal. I don't know about other states.

[becky77]

@ Michelle

Can you tell me why we do RLE? What does it prove, to who and for what reason?

As far as I understand here in the UK, it's so you prove you're ready for GRS.
If you're not having GRS, then maybe you don't need to be too worried about proving RLE.

Onto proving RLE to a medical professional, who hasn't sent a private investigator to watch your movements.
How else can they tell you have actually done this, without seeing name changes and maybe work documents in your new name?

I don't understand why you haven't changed your name yet anyways? Who wants to live full-time and still be known as their male name?

[stefan37]

I was responding to your comment it wasn't important to change your legal name and gender. All states allow you to change your name and I believe all states allow you to change your gender without SRS. Receiving a new or amended birth certificate is another matter entirely. Living full time is RLE and there are many that live there lives 24/7 as female with no intention of getting any surgeries. But I will guarantee that they have changed at least their legal name and gender on their legal documents.

Any interaction with the legal system, health care system, financial or educational will require your legal name. Yeah you can go to the doctor and request they use your preferred name, but all prescriptions, tests, procedures will be to your legal name. Same with bank accounts, SSN, etc.

[I Am Paula]

Why isn't it important to legally change your name and gender? In other words you say are full time, but not really. Your paychecks will need to be written to your birth gender name and deposited in your bank account with your legal birth name. Your driver's license, passport, health records and the list goes on that tells the world you interact with you are your birth gender.

Change all of them. HR will change who your checks are written to. It sounds like you are trying to avoid the inevitable. After getting my name change, I obliterated every last vestige of my old self, and got all new I.D. in about an hour.

[stefan37]

First off. I am not talking about me. I changed my legal name and gender 2 years ago and went full-time. I was responding to Michelle's assertion it was not important to change your name and still believeyou are full-time.

I know nobody that lives 24/7 as female that has not changed their legal name or gender. I am sure there are some and I can't even imagine the confusion that creates.
Especially where there are many places we need to produce a driver's license for I'd.

[PretzelGirl]

Changing gender is a variable thing depending on the state. Utah has been getting them through based on a vague statute, so we can only hope that continues. I actually went "through the back door" by changing my passport using federal guidelines and the DMV here accepts a passport as proof. But we also need to remember that sometimes these things take money. A person should be able to live their live authentically and considered in RLE without a name or gender change as making that part of the standard assumes a financial status.

And I know that one of the contexts here is that RLE is sometimes a requirement for GRS (that is being argued as unnecessary by some now). But whether someone can afford a surgery or not shouldn't affect the total RLE time. If I am unemployed and can't change my name due to lack of financial resources, but transition, and get employed a year later, I should be able to "qualify" as having one year of RLE for surgery right away and not have to change my name and then wait another year. I would also contend that anyone who has that unfortunate situation would have experienced more than those that have changed their name as having the wrong ID will bring about increased scrutiny and discrimination.

[Kimberly Kael]

I'm reluctant to assert that HRT and legal name change are an absolute requirement for living full time, because both are subject to different jurisdictional requirements and ease of access varies by economic status. HRT can also be inappropriate depending on medical conditions. I'm also baffled by the ease with which people toss around the phrase "legal gender" because as far as I can determine there is no such thing. There are well-established processes by which a judge can order a name change, but gender tends to be more of a document-by-document basis with differing requirements in each case.

Of course the term RLE often means something fairly specific in terms of access to procedures like GCS. Given that a patient will have to take some kind of hormone replacement following GCS it makes a ton of sense to require significant experience prior. That said, I lived full time for two years before I started HRT because I wanted to be absolutely certain I knew what I was doing and wasn't making medical decisions because they were on some arbitrary checklist. I wanted to make them for me, in consultation with my wife, on my own time.


that is a gorgeous picture Kimberly, and you look pretty good too

Awww, thanks! I thought it was long past time to change my avatar, and my bass demanded to be part of the process.

[Deborah_UK]

So I consider you full-time and doing RLE if

1. You are on HRT.



Have to disagree with the foregoing - under the NHS guidelines when I started my RLE I was not prescribed hormones until three months after seeing my Gender Clinic doc which was 5 weeks into my RLE, I didn't start on hormones until I was 4 1/2 months in.

(Transitioned 1st Jan 2010)

[PaulaQ]

I know nobody that lives 24/7 as female that has not changed their legal name or gender. I am sure there are some and I can't even imagine the confusion that creates.
Especially where there are many places we need to produce a driver's license for I'd.

I know plenty of people who go fulltime before changing their name / gender marker. At least here in Texas changing your gender marker can be near impossible, depending on where you live. (And even if you live In an area where it's possible, the costs stop some of us.) And yes, it's a nightmare for many of us.

[becky77]

Have to disagree with the foregoing - under the NHS guidelines when I started my RLE I was not prescribed hormones until three months after seeing my Gender Clinic doc which was 5 weeks into my RLE, I didn't start on hormones until I was 4 1/2 months in.

(Transitioned 1st Jan 2010)

You can live full-time and do RLE without HRT, but I would say being legally female surely has to be a must for full-time?
If you haven't changed your name then you are holding back, if you are holding back are you truly full-time?

Is this something that is dependent on where you live? It appears to be an issue in Texas, but elsewhere?

On the flip side of this I knew someone that changed their name but didn't update anywhere, so she proved RLE/full-time to the NHS with a deedpole (unemployed), but actually was lying.
This is illegal here, but it's what she was doing to get on the surgery list.
I broke contact with that person as I strongly disagree with their actions.

[Nigella]

There does seem to be a variation on what is required for RLE.

RLE was, when I was under the gender clinic, a requirement for surgery. Evidence of name change, work or social activity in new name/gender and producing bills or other documentation were the sort of evidence I needed to show prior to consideration of 1st opinion. I was fortunate as I had begun living 24/7 some 3 years prior to being seen by the gender clinic.

Each person will decide their own RLE, however, there will be some point, IMHO, a time when an "official" will tell you what you need to do to evidence RLE. I believe you can have RLE without the name change, you can interact with others in your aquired gender, however, if you are living in a dual gender world, there will be a point if you wish to be fully integrated as your correct gender when a name change is a must.

[Angela Campbell]

RLE is a guideline. It isn't anything that you have to prove, usually. At least in my area. It is all based on your therapist. It is something for which there is a good reason for. Kinda like before surgery you aren't allowed to eat or drink after midnight. Sure you can lie and get the surgery if you had broken that rule, but there may be a consequence if you do. You think you know better than the professional, but do you really?

Yes there are ways to get srs without a year or sometimes more of rle, but that is the standard used by the professionals who know better than I. If srs isn't the goal then there is no rle. Just life.

I also don't believe a transition is complete without the name change. Are you really living as a woman if your name is a male name?

[Badtranny]

Let's keep it real people, if you're not going to change your name, then what are you doing?

I'm reluctant to speak for my sisters but having the 'matching' ID was one of the more thrilling aspects of the whole thing. Especially during that first year when you're getting clocked left and right, when somebody asks for your ID for some transaction, I couldn't pull it out fast enough. Hell, I wanted to have it on a lanyard around my neck.

No matter what, my legal name was Melissa and I had a snazzy little 'F' on my ID. I've been F'd ever since. :-)

[whowhatwhen]

I won't consider myself fulltime until my name/sex designation change is done but that's just me.
Who cares about theorycrafting this crap, just do whatever and scrounge whatever happiness you can out of this big dumb Earth :P

[arbon]

I did a couple years (not by choice) of being completely out but stuck legally with my male name on everything and I can say it really, really sucked! It was like tranny purgatory. The reason it was like that was my boss would not let me change my name or dress female at work. It was all a big mess.

When I did legally change my name and stopped sacrificing myself for the job my life got way better very fast. I think that would have marked the beginning of rle but from what I had already gone through it was no big deal at all.

I never talked specifically with a therapist or doctor about RLE, I don't think it was ever mentioned. When I got my letters for surgery they just stated that I had fully transitioned in all aspects of my life and met the requirements and was a good candidate.

Just my opinion to say you are living full time you should have your name changed. Being able to change gender marker is more difficult in a lot of places,, and I don't think that is as important as the name. Of course in some counties it is hard to even change the name so live as close as you can to the gender you identify as.

[Kimberly Kael]

You can live full-time and do RLE without HRT, but I would say being legally female surely has to be a must for full-time?

Again, what do you mean by "legally female?" There is no such thing. Do you mean having at least one piece of ID that lists your gender as female? Having all your ID agree? Do you include passport and birth certificate, in which case do you really mean to say that you apply different criteria for living full time vary depending on where someone was born?

[Eryn]

Reading this thread, it seems that the definition of RLE is:

1. Doing all of the things that the person writing the post has done.

If the writer hasn't completed a particular step then of course that step is optional!


Here is an article that discusses the murky origins of the RLE in the the Erickson Educational Foundation. Apparently, it were created by Reed Erickson's personal physician!

https://dspace.library.uvic.ca/bitstream/handle/1828/4111/EEF_Guidelines_1976.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

The reasons given for the real-life test by the Guidelines are “to allow you to overcome awkwardness, establish new behavior patterns, and approach unfamiliar situations with an unforced inner confidence.” Rather than fixing the time period of the trial, it says, “[w]hen you have achieved this, the moment will have arrived for surgery to confirm the changes which you have so well prepared.”

[Badtranny]

I think a good way to look at the "legally" term is in the sense of the actual legal system.

I'm F'd for Jury Duty, for example, and I'm really F'd if I ever get arrested for anything. All official documents are F'd. So I would consider that legally F'd.



Reading this thread, it seems that the definition of RLE is:

1. Doing all of the things that the person writing the post has done.

If the writer hasn't completed a particular step then of course that step is optional!

Actually I think we're all just arguing the finer points of a concept that we already agree on.

Do you think spending a year working as a man while wearing a nightie in the evenings and going to events and shopping on the weekends should qualify someone for SRS?

[Michelle789]

Can someone please show me where it says you need to legally change your name to be considered in RLE, or to qualify for SRS? I'll believe you all if you can show me proof in the official WPATH guidelines, or if you can name all the SRS surgeons who require a legal name & gender change before they will perform surgery. If it's not in the WPATH guidelines, or at least one of the major US or worldwide SRS surgeons says that you don't need to legally change your name or gender to get SRS, then you are not required to legally change name & gender for RLE. Simple.

As far as it being a nightmare for those going through RLE without matching documentation, I agree 100%. Although, it honestly depends on what state you live in, what city, and what each and how each and every individual or organization in your life reacts.

My experience is that I am out to 4 different doctors and my dentist, work, and my mobile phone provider. Even though I haven't legally changed my name & gender yet, each of these places has me as Michelle and female on their records. They always call me Michelle.

One doctor is the L.A. LGBT Center. There may be a bias because they are the LGBT center, and lots of transwomen and transmen in my area go there for hormones.

The second is my homeopathic doctor. Once again, a bias because homeopathic doctors tend to be more trans friendly.

The third is my chiropractor. Once again, a bias because chiropractors and other alternative medicine specialists tend to be more trans friendly.

The fourth is an urgent care center I went to when I had bronchitis. I honestly don't see a personal bias coming from them, since they are a large corporation who does not cater specifically to LGBT people and are 100% western medicine. Maybe California law requires this. I don't know what the laws are in other states.

My workplace knows me as Michelle. Granted, my paychecks are still sent to my male name. But my records have me listed as Michelle. My co-workers always call me Michelle. My emails go to an address with Michelle in it.

My mechanic and JiffyLube both know me as Michelle. I am listed as Michelle on their documents. I still pay with a credit card with my male name on it.

Finally, my mobile phone provider, SprintPCS, let me change my name on the account. They have no requirement stating that your name must match your ID.

Many reward cards such as Ralphs, Panera Bread, CVS, Walgreens, Sephora, and others, have my name as Michelle. No requirement that on these rewards cards, which are not the same as credit cards, that your name must be legal.

I am out as Michelle on Facebook, personal email, AA phone lists, my church membership. My Amazon Prime account is listed as Michelle, and they totally accept a credit card with my male name on it. I have plenty of other online accounts that are like that.

I honestly think it depends on the state you live in and any individual organization to decide whether or not you can use a different name other than your legal name.

Now there are some places where I still am listed as my male name.

1. My bank accounts.

2. My lease.

3. My utility bills.

4. Jury duty.

5. My auto insurance.

6. Driver's license.

Probably a few others.


AAA has me listed under my male name, but gender marker is female.

Perhaps I'm lucky because my male name is an uncommon name and not easily gendered in our culture. In our culture it can be a male or female name. Maybe nobody bats an eye when they see a credit card or bank account with my male name and I'm presenting as female.

So yes, there are many places you can use your preferred name and it doesn't need to match your legal name. There are other places you must use your legal name. Those places that require a legal name haven't given me any trouble for it.

Now I believe that it can be a nightmare for many people who haven't legally changed their name & gender. I would imagine that in places like Texas or Idaho, or in organizations that are highly transphobic, they may give you hell when they see a mismatching name & gender marker from how you present.

Can I say that Texas and California are the two extremes. California is the trans friendly extreme that will let you get away without changing your name or gender, and when you do decide to change it it's relatively straightforward? Texas it the trans unfriendly extreme that will give you hell for not changing your name or gender, but gives you hell when you do decide to change your name and gender marker? And everywhere else is somewhere in between on the spectrum.

Oh, and one more thing. How about someone like me who is literally torn about whether or not I want to keep my last name. This is one of several issues preventing me from changing my name right now. I know I am definitely sticking with Michelle as my first name.


Now, do I plan on changing my name & gender? Yes, absolutely.

Do I consider myself to be in RLE? Yes.

Do I consider myself living 24/7? I haven't dressed as male since August 15, 2014. I've been on HRT since August 1, 2014. Today, I officially qualify for SRS. Although I'm not thinking SRS at this time, I do qualify.

Do I consider myself living full-time as a woman? Yes. I have no plans of ever reverting back to male mode. I have no plans of interacting with the world as a man.

Maybe instead of arguing back and forth between who is right and who is wrong, maybe RLE is a very personal thing. Maybe RLE is only a guideline. Maybe your RLE and definition of full-time depends on what your own personal goals and circumstances are.

And don't forget the people who choose not to go on HRT or do surgeries. They're still living full-time just as much as anyone who is on HRT or is planning a surgery.

[Eryn]

Do you think spending a year working as a man while wearing a nightie in the evenings and going to events and shopping on the weekends should qualify someone for SRS?

Do you think that someone presenting as as their desired gender as much as possible but forced to present as their birth gender for work should be automatically denied SRS until they do everything you did?

That would impact transpeople serving in the military as well as transpeople who need to safeguard their employment to meet their family obligations.

Even WPATH says:


The Standards of Care Are Flexible Clinical Guidelines

The SOC are intended to be flexible in order to meet the diverse health care needs of trans-sexual, transgender, and gender-nonconforming people.


They don't seem to believe in a rigid checklist either.

[becky77]

Again, what do you mean by "legally female?" There is no such thing. Do you mean having at least one piece of ID that lists your gender as female? Having all your ID agree? Do you include passport and birth certificate, in which case do you really mean to say that you apply different criteria for living full time vary depending on where someone was born?

Actually I just meant name change and ID for RLE. I only know the criteria for surgery in the UK.

Is there no such thing as legally female? Where would you be sent to prison?
In the UK until you have proven certain criteria (minimum 2 years RLE), you can't apply for a Gender certificate, until then regardless of how you live, how long etc you are considered male by the government and are in danger of going to a male prison.

I don't really understand why we are arguing name change? Why on earth would you live full-time and keep male name and pronouns?
If you are pulled over by the police and they ask for your license, are you male or female?

I stand back and say I'm clueless to what RLE means in the US, but here the Gender clinic expects a name change to start your RLE.

[Michelle789]

@Becky, not here in California. Gender clinics here do not expect a name change to start RLE. Certainly not in Southern California. Not sure about Northern California.

[PaulaQ]

Let's keep it real people, if you're not going to change your name, then what are you doing?


There are still all sorts of legal situations and places in the U.S. where it's hard to get name / gender marker changes. I know women here in Texas who've had both the name and gender marker change denied by a judge. The denial of name change is incredible - but the law here gives judges total autonomy on who and why they grant these.

My insurance required 1 year of RLE before they'd approve my GRS. FWIW, I'm not sure what purpose the RLE serves. There is none for FFS, and really none for BA, and both have far more day to day impact. The FtMs can get mastectomies with no RLE or even HRT.

A lot of people will wait some significant time before they are able to obtain this surgery anyway, simply because of wait times. If GRS were, in general quick, affordable and easy to get, I could see more arguments for it.

I remain unconvinced that any therapist I've ever met knows whether or not someone should or should not do any particular thing with regards to their gender.

[Jorja]

You all are getting into a heated discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with RLE. RLE is a period of 1-2 years where a person lives life 24/7 as their preferred gender. Nothing more, nothing less. This teaches you exactly what it is like to live life as a man or woman. It has nothing to do with HRT, name change, or any other BS you want to put in there.

Back at the time I was required to do RLE it was 2 years. If you could not get through it, you weren't ready for other things like HRT, BA, or SRS.

[stefan37]

Bottom line Michelle, using your male name and gender. You are legally male. Anywhere you need to provide your driver's license will out you as male. There is absolutely no law that I know will prevent somebody from presenting female and using their male name and legal gender of male. Transition is challenging enough to need to show male ID.

Good luck getting a SRS surgeon to perform vaginaplasty without 2 letters. The premise behind RLE as it relates to transition is the ensure you can integrate your life as female into society. Keeping the ability to slip back into male for whatever portion of your life is not integrating as a female.

I don't care who gets or doesn't get SRS surgery. You want to go about your life as female with a male name, legal male ID, and a vagina. Have at it. I can't even image the disconnect going on.

In order to get a US passport with female gender marker. You need a doctor to sign off on the letter. There are 2 tiers. One you are active in transition which needs to be renewed every 2 years. The second tier requires that you have undergone irreversible medical treatment and is valid for the passport life of 10 years.
In either case it must be signed by a medical doctor or doctor of psychiatry.

Transition is hard, it's expensive. ( I wish it wasn't but in the states it is). I would think that if one is transitioning they have some plan going forward how to pay for hormones, electrolysis, name change. At a minimum facial hair removal and name change. I believe most of the strife TS encounter is the result of "you go girl professionals, lack of planning and as a corollary lack of funds. Unrealistic expectations of looks and acceptance into society.

I have my opinion of RLE. It is obvious there are some that believe living with Male identity or part time have a different definition. Just as they do for being TS or transition.
My opinion tho of full time is rigid. You can not be full time if you have the ability to revert back to male or have legal male identity.

You can agree to disagree with me. I will not be swayed. I would go as far to say that the second year full time even with the benefit of FFS is exponentially more difficult than early transition before full time and even the first year of full time.

[Kimberly Kael]

Is there no such thing as legally female? Where would you be sent to prison?

There really isn't a single legal definition in the US as far as I can tell. Instead, you are treated as male or female in a specific context based on how that aspect of government decides they're going to determine it. In some cases a driver's license is sufficient, in others you need a birth certificate, and in yet others a physical examination is the only accepted approach. Prisons sometimes have state-wide procedures established, but not always. Sports organizations are free to invent their own tests based on medical tests, history, or pretty much anything else they feel like. Any of the above can be challenged (by you or some vaguely interested party) and a judge may decide to apply some different criteria altogether. It's something of a mess.


I don't really understand why we are arguing name change? Why on earth would you live full-time and keep male name and pronouns?

Because in most places you need a judge's order to change your legal name (which is an accepted thing, quite unlike gender.) In some cases getting the desired results involves hiring lawyers, and not everyone can afford to jump through the required hoops. Living in your target gender shouldn't have an economic bar attached.


If you are pulled over by the police and they ask for your license, are you male or female?

That depends on the jurisdiction. Officers in progressive areas are often trained to respect your presentation regardless of what your license says. Officers in conservative areas may be encouraged to disrespect your choices if you're visibly transgender, regardless of what your license says. Getting your ID changed is no guarantee of anything, though I'd agree it's generally a worthwhile step if it's not a huge economic hardship.

My legal name had changed and I had new identification months before I finally went full time, which was the source of some stress and entertainment when I needed to travel for work. Thankfully HR was already in the loop and was able to smooth things over.

[PretzelGirl]

Becky, we are actually starting to get jails to identify trans individuals and house them appropriately. This is a tough one, but we have some traction locally. It isn't based on the ID marker, but self identity.

Overall, I still don't care for any definition of RLE that requires money. I have friends that are full-time and living as a female that can't afford electrolysis. Does their's not count? I have a friend in bankruptcy who cannot get a name change until it is discharged? Should she not be considered in RLE? Ironically, her first name is androgynous, so the middle name is the issue. Experience is the key word, not legalities or commitment. Lack of financial privilege does not lessen a commitment.

[Badtranny]

Do you think that someone presenting as as their desired gender as much as possible but forced to present as their birth gender for work should be automatically denied SRS until they do everything you did? .

Interesting. I wouldn't consider my transition to be the blueprint for anyone. I didn't go full time until I was surgically altered to make it impossible to be any other way. Regardless of what the CD's say, ain't no man walking around with 38D breasts. The big difference between me and many others is I was gonna do it my way no matter what. Another difference between me and many others is I am able to recognize my mistakes and correct my course with no ideology to trip over.

So using your model of someone who is not out to the world, and lets be serious here, (if you're not out at work than you're not out to the world), should that person be allowed SRS? I personally think people should be allowed whatever surgery they want whenever they want it. I don't like the idea that TS people are considered to be incapable of making their own medical decisions. My body, my life, my decisions. Having said that, I find it unsettling that someone who's literal interpretation of being a woman is wearing women's clothes, is advocating for looser interpretations of the time honored traditions of transition.

I guess there are as many ways to transition as there are transwomen, so to each their own. However the girls in my tribe are not about secrets or closets. We are out, our names are changed and there's not a girly girl among us. If you meet me at work, I'll be the same person you'll meet at a party. Perhaps a little more sober at work. There is not a single corner of my life that is not transitioned. There is only one me and I got here a little differently and perhaps I'm a little unorthodox, but I am now on the other side with my middle finger leading the way. I am transitioned.

If I wanted to have SRS there would be no need for distinctions, even the most rigid gatekeeper would sign without hesitation. I have passed every one of their criteria. Hmmmm, maybe I'm just an old fashioned kinda gal after all.

[Michelle789]

Because in most places you need a judge's order to change your legal name (which is an accepted thing, quite unlike gender.) In some cases getting the desired results involves hiring lawyers, and not everyone can afford to jump through the required hoops. Living in your target gender shouldn't have an economic bar attached.


This is very true. Some people literally all they can afford is to wear a cheap wig and cheap frumpy women's clothes. They cannot afford makeup, HRT, laser, electrolysis, nicer wig, nicer clothes, legal name & gender change, oh and they can forget about FFS or BA or SRS. If all someone can afford is a cheap wig and frumpy women's clothes and has no realistic chance of ever getting their name & gender changed, and has no realistic chance of ever passing, should we tell them that they are not living full-time? Does this mean they are not doing RLE? Are RLE and full-time only for the privileged few who are genetically blessed, earn over $50,000 per year, or maybe $100,000 per year is more like it, and medically healthy enough to be able to handle HRT and surgeries?



Officers in progressive areas are often trained to respect your presentation regardless of what your license says. Officers in conservative areas may be encouraged to disrespect your choices if you're visibly transgender, regardless of what your license says. Getting your ID changed is no guarantee of anything, though I'd agree it's generally a worthwhile step if it's not a huge economic hardship.

Very true. Once again, in conservative areas, you have to be 100% passable to get your identity respected, regardless of what your ID says. So does this mean that people who can't pass because of appearance, voice, behaviors, or mannerisms, are not full-time?

@Beth, I totally agree with you. There is no right or wrong way to transition. Regardless of your hairstyle, clothing style, changing documentation, choice to wear or not to wear makeup, whether or not you get facial hair removal, whether or not you're on HRT, whether or not you get any surgeries, you are living full-time as yourself if you present as female 24/7. I really believe that 24/7 presentation constitutes living full-time and RLE. You're living authentically and not going back to your former self. For the sake of getting SRS, I would say that RLE is whatever is required for you to get your surgery.

As for name & gender change for SRS - please show me one surgeon who requires a legal name and gender change. To get the two letters of recommendation from a therapist is one thing, but then it's up to the therapist to decide what is the one year of RLE. In fact, I'll ask my therapist tomorrow when I go to see her. I'll ask her what her requirements are for one year of RLE to sign off a letter for SRS.


Also, what about the transwoman who has lived in female mode for 3 months, 7 months, or even 11 months, and suddenly feels pressured to present in male mode for one day by a family member or ex-spouse. Believe me, I have seen this happen. What if your ex-wife really demands you dress as a man for the day in divorce court? Otherwise this is the only time in one year you ever dressed as male. It may be the very last time you ever dress as male again. I have personally seen this happen. Should you be forced to reset your time under such extreme circumstances. This is not so far-fetched, I have personally seen this happen.

[LeaP]

How many natal females are compelled to be men for a day? How many would do it if pressured ... not to pretend to be men, mind you, but to be the men they really were ... for a day? What is "male mode" to someone who has transitioned?

The clothes, makeup, hair and wigs, etc. Who cares?

Name and gender markers, surgeries, HRT - those are more substantive, IMO. While I think them irrelevant to the notion of living full-time, hence RLE, they can compromise transition.




Do you think spending a year working as a man while wearing a nightie in the evenings and going to events and shopping on the weekends should qualify someone for SRS?

The question is whether any qualification is, or should be necessary at all. Sticking with current reality and not theory, consider this from the standpoint of fertility. One may have any of several irreversible sterilizing surgeries without RLE. Consider sex. One may be asexual. One may take medications voluntarily that render them sexually dysfunctional, also without RLE. Then consider that one's sex organs are private anyway and are irrelevant to living full time. One may have an orchiectomy without RLE. So what's RLE actually about?

Now - to your example. What are the chances that the person wearing the nightie and shopping en-femme on weekends will actually pursure SRS if they are not, in fact, cross-sex identified? On the other side of this, how many might be so suppressed and fearful that they would be better off with SRS, FFS, etc. before going full-time?

So, what does RLE *actually* accomplish? Where are the stats and studies? (hint - non-existent) Might it cause more problems than it prevents? (... same answer, so who knows?) In a population where fear and suppression is a major issue, I'd like some real answers.

[Rianna Humble]

Reading this thread, it seems that the definition of RLE

This thread is not about fixing a definition of RLE, it is about discussing the TS members' experience of RLE. That was plain from the OP's comment "now discuss".


Here is an article that discusses the murky origins of the RLE in the the Erickson Educational Foundation. Apparently, it were created by Reed Erickson's personal physician!

https://dspace.library.uvic.ca/bitstream/handle/1828/4111/EEF_Guidelines_1976.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

The reasons given for the real-life test by the Guidelines are “to allow you to overcome awkwardness, establish new behavior patterns, and approach unfamiliar situations with an unforced inner confidence.” Rather than fixing the time period of the trial, it says, “[w]hen you have achieved this, the moment will have arrived for surgery to confirm the changes which you have so well prepared.”

Actually, what you linked to was not an article about whatever, it was a pdf of a set of guidelines from EEF. And far from not mentioning a time period for the "trial", it says
No part of your preparation for sex reassignment is more important than the first-hand experience of dressing, working, living in the desired gender role for a continuous and considerable period of time prior to surgery. Most gender identity clinics, and many physicians in private practice, require from six months to two years of cross-gender experience before recommending a patient for surgery.
The colour and bold type were added by me to make it easier to find the quoted time-span

From what I have read of these guidelines so far, they seem to be an early attempt in 1976 to set out some of what is now in the World Professional Association for Transgender Health guidelines and to offer practical advice for those who need to transition.

[Eryn]

Actually, what you linked to was not an article about whatever, it was a pdf of a set of guidelines from EEF.

Sorry, once I happened upon the actual pamphlet I inadvertently replaced the link to the article with a link to the pamphlet. Here is the article:

http://www.trans-health.com/2003/real-life-test/

The thing I find remarkable about it is that the "Real Life Experience" requirement was likely created by Erickson's personal physician with no research at all. The requirement has been brought forward to the present pretty much intact. That's a pretty shaky background for a requirement being used to determine such life-changing decisions.

I'm curious, has anyone run across any research showing that a specific period of RLE improves the chances of a good overall outcome?

[becky77]

I'm curious, has anyone run across any research showing that a specific period of RLE improves the chances of a good overall outcome?

Remember that the primary reason for RLE was as a prep for surgery or HRT in some places still.

I think if you know, you know. Then it's kinda jumping through hoops.

But there are many that are either confused or deluded, it is for those that RLE helps, making someone do a period of time living full-time as a woman, is possibly the only surety there can be.

Living as a woman for some is nothing like what they thought it would be, those are the ones that it could prevent from making a big mistake.

I think the Gender clinic is well aware of how many people cheat the system, so trust is lost
If you were a health care professional, would you risk your career by taking someones word, or would you protect yourself by asking for documents to back up the RLE?

What's the point of RLE?
If someone can't afford a name change, they can't afford surgery, so what is RLE achieving?

I've always thought RLE was a proving period, other's seem to think it's just general experience.
So does RLE have one meaning medically, multiple meanings medically dependent on area or whatever meaning you decide you want it to be?

Going back to what Rianna says about our own RLE.
The Gender clinic in London asked for a deed poll and letter from work, they considered the deed poll date as my start date.
Although they did say my previous experience may well count towards decreasing the length of RLE expected, I had been on HRT for a year before that.
The RLE as far as I was made aware , was only related to getting on the list for surgery.

I have an appt. this Friday, I'm thinking to ask if they have a guideline to what constitutes RLE. Of course this would only be relevant to the NHS.

[PaulaQ]

You can agree to disagree with me. I will not be swayed. I would go as far to say that the second year full time even with the benefit of FFS is exponentially more difficult than early transition before full time and even the first year of full time.

Would you mind explaining why you feel this way, or what you experienced that made you feel this way? This has not been my experience, quite the opposite, actually, and so I am curious about why you feel as you do.

[Badtranny]

Would you mind explaining why you feel this way, or what you experienced that made you feel this way? This has not been my experience, quite the opposite, actually, and so I am curious about why you feel as you do.

I agree with Stef, I think my second year was worse than the first. Third year is better than the first ...so far.

Perhaps it's about expectations. In year one I expected to be read a lot and in year two I WAS read a lot. I ascribe my bumpy socialization to the industry I work in.

Lately though I'm beginning to think I could've saved myself a lot of trouble by just keeping my old name and maybe throwing on a tie at work every now and then. :-)

[Jorja]

For me, my second year was better than the first. I think Melissa is correct in saying it is about expectations. I also believe your attitude and personality have a lot to do with how that second year goes.

[Nigella]

Again, what do you mean by "legally female?" There is no such thing. Do you mean having at least one piece of ID that lists your gender as female? Having all your ID agree? Do you include passport and birth certificate, in which case do you really mean to say that you apply different criteria for living full time vary depending on where someone was born?

Within the UK your "legal" gender is what is recorded on your birth certificate, that is why we have the process of Gender Recognition. I can't comment on one of the processes required to obtain this certificate, my application was made via the virtue of living as female for more than 6 years. I needed my GP to contribute a medical report, a solicitor to witness a statutory declaration and provide evidence of "living" as female from a point at least 6 years in the past. Once the panel has made a decision, and it is a positive one, you are issued a Gender Recognition Certificate, it is only with this document can you obtain a new birth certificate.

As I have mentioned before, a name change in the UK can just be a piece of paper saying from this date, I want to be known as. For the purposes of "officialdom" they generally require something more substantial and this is usually a Deed Poll.

This thread has diversified into more than RLE, but lets not get stuck on the right or wrong way, after all Exerience is what we all gain, just by living.

[PaulaQ]

@Melissa, Jorja - thanks, I think situation and expectations and personality would definitely contribute to your experiences in year two. I asked because I'd wondered if it was a work thing. My job situation so far has been fortunate - I kept mine, and I work remotely. There have still been issues, but I have no doubt that I've taken at least 90% less crap than many of us do. So I hope I didn't seem judgmental for asking - I just know my situation is very fortunate in some ways, and so my experience wasn't typical.

[Eryn]

Becky, what I was curious about is if any one has found research on the effectiveness of RLE in preventing post-medical-intervention regret.

My feeling is that someone who didn't move spontaneously toward a RLE situation isn't likely to be successful post-op. It shouldn't be something that one has to be told to do, but the natural way the person's life is going.

Feelings aren't data, though, and I would like to see something more solid.

[Badtranny]

- I just know my situation is very fortunate in some ways, and so my experience wasn't typical.

I share that sentiment. I am also incredibly fortunate despite my career struggles. I hardly ever complain because I don't really have a lot to complain about, but I also think it's important to share my struggles here for the gals on the edge. I personally know plenty of trans women who have had a much harder time than I have.

There's no question though that employment discrimination is a very real thing. Even for aggressive executive types who have never felt discrimination for anything ever.

[Jorja]

There's no question though that employment discrimination is a very real thing. Even for aggressive executive types who have never felt discrimination for anything ever.

While I do not think I was ever discriminated against in my career, I do know many that have been. This is in part why I started hiring TG/TS people. It could have very well blew up in my face but my customers are very accepting when a crew shows up and isn't quite like all the rest of the construction crews out there. They are really happy when the project comes in under budget and early. Besides, it pisses off the competition when we repeatedly get bids and they don't. :)

[stefan37]

Pre fulltime was very easy in many ways. There was the giddiness of doing something I would dream about , but never had the courage to. It was a period of coming out to family, friends, employees, clients. First year full time was also relatively easy. I went what i consider full time after my name change and gender marker change on legal documents. I still had not had facial reconstruction and it would be at least another 15 months before I was able to afford that. Being gendered male or female was 50/50. Funny thing I would be gendered more frequently female while in work or casual clothing. Oddly wearing dresses or skirts I would be gendered male more frequently.

Year 2 went to Mexico for facial reconstruction. Yay!! Now finally my facial features no longer screamed male. The first couple months went extremely well. Almost never gendered male. Worked hard on voice and things seemed to be going well. Then inexplicably the past month. Things didn't go so well. For whatever reason I was being gendered male more frequently. It was disheartening especially after spending a huge chunk of pesos and time on facial reconstruction. I've had to sit back and reflect what am i doing wrong? It could very well be expectations, the industry I work in (I own an electrical/mechanical contracting business). It could even be the stress of obtaining pre-op clearances for SRS scheduled Nov. 3rd. It possibly also has to do that I have not yet truly integrated as female. Yeah people treat me respect and for the most part are good with pronouns. They don't think I'm male, yet they don't think I'm female either. I'm not talking about casual encounters at stores or restaurants. I'm speaking to teaching, social clubs and organizations. Interacting at the pool. Yeah I use the women's locker room and there haven't been any issues. But it's different.

I have a strong personality and confidence many regard as arrogance. I don't complain much as evidenced by my posting history. I have had it relatively smooth. I have my family intact, friends, employees, and clients. The business has grown tremendously in the years since I stepped off the cliff. I swim 6000 yds a week, don't drink or do drugs. I am the healthiest ever in my life. I have also suffered a catastrophic loss of my 31 year marriage. My only savings are what I have for SRS and even that is 10 grand short. It's my experience nobody transitions unscathed. (I'm sure some member or 2 will pipe in how their transition has been fairy tale perfect). That is not my experience, nor of the girls I hang with regularly.

But the thing is. I'm in it for the long haul. Whatever challenges are thrown my way, I have to overcome them experience success integrating. Transition is a life long process. I'm sure after 5 years or more many of the challenges will be a non-issue.
You can debate RLE or full time all you want. But the proof of doing it is when you put skin in the game and live 24/7 as your authentic self. Not living as female except for........

I read posts about members fearful of losing marriages, employment etc and not having any game plan for transition or even how they will pay for it. Be so excited to start hormones. Well guess what. Things will get real very fast. Hopefully our e experiences can help them understand what they may be in for.
You will experience relief from your GD. You will get the freedom to live your life authentically everywhere without hiding. You will not experience blanket respect or proper pronouns. You may or not keep your job.
'If you do keep your job. expect that things will change. You will be treated differently. You may experience a pay cut. Or not be considered for a promotion. People will get the name rather quickly. Expect the pronouns to not be so forthcoming.

The above is Real Life full time experience. It has nothing to do with time frame for surgery. It is living your life authentically as female 24/7.

[becky77]

Becky, what I was curious about is if any one has found research on the effectiveness of RLE in preventing post-medical-intervention regret.

My feeling is that someone who didn't move spontaneously toward a RLE situation isn't likely to be successful post-op. It shouldn't be something that one has to be told to do, but the natural way the person's life is going.
.

I agree, but those of us that are serious will do it properly, RLE is just living your life after all.

It only comes into affect with those that are looking for surgery without intentions of living full-time, let's assume their motives are not sound.
How do you protect people from themselves? Also do we need to protect people, they are adults after all.

I have no idea how affective RLE is, if we didn't have it would things be the same or would there be more tragic stories.

If you do RLE properly then you have to 'pull the pin' (tm), if you've done that, you must be pretty serious.

[Angela Campbell]

I wasn't asked for anything to prove that I spent a year full time, by anyone. I did have a relationship of sorts with my therapist, but he took my word for everything.

My srs surgeon asked for 1 letter and my licensed therapist ( not a psychologist ) provided one for me.

I did know the standards and I did have over a year of RLE full time, name changed, out at work etc....

I took it upon myself to make sure.

Most surgeons require the letter. ..or letters, to cover their ....rear end. Same with the therapist. They don't want someone suing them because you made a mistake.

[Jorja]

I took it upon myself to make sure.

This is the difference between someone not sure and someone who really needs/wants it.

[Kimberly Kael]

How do you protect people from themselves?

That's an interesting and subtle question with no easy answers. Putting some friction in the system so that people have a chance to recognize what they're getting into is a time-tested approach. That's essentially what RLE does.


Also do we need to protect people, they are adults after all.

Even the US isn't actually have a society where people are left entirely to their own devices. There's a social contract in place that gives us all something of a safety net in exchange for some level of collective responsibility. Licensed medical professionals swear an oath to do no harm, and they can't provide services that contradict that oath. The insurance companies that are increasingly being asked to pay for transition care are using pooled funds and have a responsibility to everyone who pays in to ensure that they're used wisely.

[Eryn]

Replace "Even" with "Especially" and I'll agree with you.

The US system is driven by insurance companies and lawyers. The insurance companies want us to fear the lawyers because that raises insurance rates. The lawyers fight the insurance companies because that is where the money is. Together they extract a huge amount of money from everyone while returning no tangible product.

The result is that insurance companies are increasingly making decisions that were previously made by individual physicians. You'd think that prescriptions should be the province of the physician but my patches have to be double-approved because both the pharmacy (fearing lawsuits) and insurance company (limiting expenses) won't recognize that what might be a high dose for a GG is perfectly appropriate for a TG person. By rights, they should learn and adapt, but the fact is that it is cheaper and legally safer to discourage me from treatment by creating hoops.

The question is where prudent caution becomes blatant obstruction. If the insurance companies had their way RLE would be 10 years.

[Angela Campbell]

This is the difference between someone not sure and someone who really needs/wants it.

no. I was referring to making sure nothing got in my way, or became an obstacle. I knew full well that I was going to have srs before I ever changed my name or had ffs.

[Badtranny]

you know it occurs to me that it really only matters how long the prescribed period of RLE is to the girls who are going forth with SRS.

We're talking about it like it's some kind of milestone that we hit and then ...what? RLE is really just transition. The gatekeepers want you to be fully transitioned as your target gender for at least a year before they feel comfortable signing off on a life changing surgery. Why this would be considered prohibitive by anyone is beyond me.

I know there are many here who think they are actually transitioned even though they keep their male name, male identity etc etc. Some think that wearing women's clothes at every opportunity is comparable to actually coming out and owning who you really are. I wonder if these people can comprehend the permanence of something like SRS?

If SRS isn't part of the plan, than nobody is concerned with your RLE. If it is part of the plan, then I hope it all works out.

[Michelle789]

With due respect Misty, there are many of us who are unable to change our names and gender for legal, financial, or possible other reasons. Sometimes it can be due to emotional baggage. I'm still not sure if I want to keep my last name or change it - I'm literally torn. I don't want to go through 2 or 3 name changes.

I could change my first name, middle name & gender. That's name change #1.

Then I could change my last name if I decide not to keep it. That's name change #2.

And if Cody and I get married, I'll be changing my last name once more. That's name change #3.

All of this could potentially happen in the next several years. Do you really think I want to go through multiple name changes in a few years? Heck no. Once I decide what to do with my last name, I will change it. But I only want to go through the process once, not twice. That is not counting if Cody and I decide to get married. I'm willing to do two name changes - one for name & gender, and one for getting married. But I don't want to go through two name changes unless one of them is for marriage. Please understand I have cultural reasons behind my dilemma.

If Cody proposes to me tomorrow, then the answer is easy. I'll change name & gender upon legally getting married. But we're taking our relationship slow and are not close to seriously getting married. So I'm left with the dilemma of whether to keep or change my last name - my name that will be my last name until I do get married.

Oh, and what about people from the great state of Texas where it's incredibly difficult to change name & gender? Or people who simply can't afford the cost?

Now I do plan on doing something very soon. After my trip to NY, I plan on changing my photo and gender marker on my driver's license. Although it's incomplete documentation change, it's legally allowed in California. It's something that's long overdue. I admit, it's my fault for not doing this sooner, but better late than never. Ok, not all my fault. I wasn't expecting to be sick in bed for two months earlier this year. I'm waiting until after my trip because California does this stupid, annoying paper license thing, and it takes about 4-6 weeks for the real license to arrive by mail. I'd rather have an actual license with wrong information on it, than a paper license with no photo and correct gender marker, because God only knows how the TSA, rental car agency, and cops in NY will react to a temporary paper California driver's license. Sorry, but the temp paper license is one of many things that are so annoying about living in California.

[stefan37]

If somebody cannot afford the cost of name change. They certainly can't afford the cost of SRS.

SRS despite the relative successes is a major irreversible surgery. There is a serious risk of major complications that are much more common and many that suffer them don't broadcast. Many are not even able to have the surgery due to health issues. The results of the surgery can be detrimental or even fatal to those individuals and they are denied. But the thing is they are committed to living as their authentic Selves 24/7.

Don't want to change your name or gender. Have at it. Transition is challenging enough with legal female identification. I can't even imagine how difficult it is for someone for whatever reason lives with preferred name and gender and legal male name and gender.

Think of it in this way. Upon your death. What name and gender will be on your death certificate. If you haven't changed your name or gender. I guarantee it will be your male name and gender. When Trans individuals are tragically killed. People get up in arms because they use the wrong name and gender and not the preferred. Well yeah. Their drivers license or legal I'd says a different thing. You cannot discount the importance of legal I'd.

You want and need to integrate as a woman. You want those close to you to take you seriously that you are a woman. Then be a woman. Commit to living as one.

I know my family and employees would not take me seriously if I didn't commit to at least a name change. In the business world it is all about legal Id. There is no make believe. Bank loans, professional licenses, contracts, business ownership and legal organization documents. Tax records.


I don't understand this opposition to living as a woman before receiving irreversible surgery that will remove your male genitalia.

I do advocate people make their own decisions on what surgeries they want and on their own timeline. The only opposition would be their health and medical preop clearances.

[arbon]

Some people I think really transition to being openly trans and enjoying the tranny rides but not really understanding what transitioning to being a woman is.

How is it full time being a woman when you still have a male name? Its not. Its full time being transgender. That is okay, but not the same.
Being a woman and wanting to have corrective surgery why in the world would you have a male name by choice?

[Dianne S]

I know nobody that lives 24/7 as female that has not changed their legal name or gender.

I did that. My hatred of going back-and-forth reached the point that I went full-time in April and only received my Change of Name in July and my new driver's license yesterday.

Yes, the few times I had to show ID, it was a bit annoying. But it was usually in a situation where somebody was about to take my money or in a medical situation and everyone I dealt with was courteous and respectful.

I should say that it was always my intent to change my name legally. I agree with Stefan that going full-time without intending to change your name and gender marker does seem like it would cause unnecessary problems.

[Angela Campbell]

RLE is only something used by a therapist or psychologist to determine readiness for SRS. Wpath uses this as a recommendation as a way to do the same. Many therapists use the WPATH standards. Another reason the RLE is used and required by most of the surgeons performing this surgery is to limit liability. To counter you if you rush into this and have your life changed by removal of your sexual organs and then try to sue. Completion of a year or more of RLE is a good sign that you completely understand what you are getting into. I believe this is a sound guideline.
I chose to follow these guidelines regardless of how close my therapist chose to.

All therapists approach this differently as far as determination of RLE or readiness for surgery or HRT. If they strongly follow the WPATH guidelines then they will require at least a year of RLE which would include a legal name change, continued employment and coming out to all who know you. Excuses such as ...I can't afford it....I can't let my employer or some family members know...etc...would indicate that the subject is clearly not ready for life changing surgery and has not shown the readiness to live full time as a woman. (I am using the m2f as my references but I am sure it is similar for a f2m)

If you are not seeking SRS then RLE is meaningless. If you are just living and changing your life then there is no requirement to change your name, be a woman all the time or have any surgeries or even be on hormones.

Now a discussion of what constitutes "full time" is something altogether different.

[STACY B]

Lady's Lady's,,Lady's,, R.L.E Thread---This is a Real Life Thread,, As in becoming a Real Live Woman ? Not one at the house,, Not one for some people to see and know, Not one on the week ends, Not one when you go out shopping or to the Movie, Show Nuff EVERYBODY that see's me, Works with me,, Is Kin to me and has ANY Interaction with me will No Way in the world no matter what I am wearing or doing or walking or talking, Driving and anything else will in any way NOT NO that I am Living my life from now on as a Female Thread ?

[PaulaQ]

How is it full time being a woman when you still have a male name? Its not. Its full time being transgender. That is okay, but not the same.
Being a woman and wanting to have corrective surgery why in the world would you have a male name by choice?

There are vast swaths of the state where I live, Texas, where you aren't getting a name / gender change no matter what medical procedures you have. Believe me, the decision not to have a name / gender marker change is often not a choice.

I live in Dallas county. Our local attorney is trans - she has several judges she knows who'll grant name and gender marker changes with a doctor's letter stating we've transitioned irrevocably medically. Generally that involves some period of time on HRT, and the prescribing doctor's opinion, as well as letter's from a gender therapist. I got my name / gender change no problem. I've spent more time in court on traffic citations.

One of my friends, in nearby Tarrant county has been in Transition about as long as I have. She had all the same letters, and the judge there denied the gender marker change, although he granted the name change.

Or there's a friend of mine, a member of our local trans support group, who is autistic, and can barely keep a job. She's been on HRT for a long time, and thoughts of SRS or breast augmentation are just dreams, and will likely NEVER happen for her. She takes an enormous amount of crap on the job having male IDs and a female presentation - she really does live as a woman. The $1000 it costs to get an attorney to do the name change for her may as well be $1,000,000. She isn't going to get it anytime soon, let's put it that way. She can manage to keep up with HRT, and she only managed to be able to start on HRT because of a scholarship my organization gave to her last year for HRT. This woman is totally screwed without a name change. She could save some on the cost of filing by doing it herself, but given her ability to deal with people - she has Asperger's syndrome - I think she'd likely fail. She CAN work, and she can take care of herself. She just sucks at dealing with people.

So my group awarded her a scholarship for a name / gender change this year. She's working on it now. Unfortunately, we can't do this for everyone.

It's neat and stuff for folks on the forum who live someplace that has sane laws for name / gender changes, and you are privileged and stuff to the point where you can avail yourself of them. Hey, that's my situation - and it is great. Not everyone is in that situation, though.

As for when people who do have an option choose to change ID, keep in mind that trying to balance life as a woman with not completely wrecking every single aspect of your life, in particular your employment, is pretty important. And while it might seem that someone could choose to never come out on the job, and thus never change their IDs, I generally tell people that this is an impractical idea if they are going to be on HRT, because after a time, they will simply no longer resemble their photo ID, and this will cause them a lot of problems, even if they have managed to avoid other problems by not changing them. So I think a certain amount of understanding is called for here. Most of the people I've observed who don't change their IDs as soon as they are able avoid this step out of fear of the consequences, without considering that once you start down this path, it's nearly impossible to avoid some type of consequences. The best one can do, in my view, is to try to manage the consequences in such a way as to minimize the damage you take in life.

[LeaP]

Paula, you are addressing different kinds of issues in your response.

Take Theresa's comment at face value – but in terms of preference, not constraint. What does it say about someone who does not WANT to change their name and gender marker ... someone who lives in a place where it's possible?

The part of your post concerned with not wrecking various aspects of your life goes into something radically different than RLE when you start talking about people who want to maintain their employment, i.e., continuing to work as men. What ever you choose to call it or give for a rationale – preference, survival, whatever – one thing that it clearly is not is RLE.

[stefan37]

I sympathize with those that are down on their luck and barely scraping by. And I'm sure there are situations where it's difficult to get the market change. Maybe in Texas those cases are the norm. My comments are for the most part directed towards those individuals that are arguing it's OK to go full-time without any intention of changing their legal name or gender. Or living female except for.... I'm not referring to those actively transitioning and plan on coming out at work, but haven't yet. That is a timeline every one needs to make on their terms. But I do take exception to those that consider themselves full time and have no plans of coming out to family, friends or work.
The harsh brutal fact is transition is hard, it's fearful, it's very expensive. Many jump right in without nary a plan. No money, nor no prospect of it. If you're going to live as a woman, with legal male name and gender marker, no money. You are going to have a very hard road. Society is not very forgiving of those that present as women, but look like men. It's tragic, but it will be at least, 20 or more years before society at large starts to change their view.

In 50 years transitioned individuals will be a non issue. Late life transitioners will be a rarity. Tweaks individuals will be able to transition at a much earlier age and their integration will be seamless.

[Michelle789]

@Stefan,

You hit it on the nose in your last post. You mention "OK to go full-time without any intention of changing their legal name or gender"

I put intention in bold on purpose when I quoted you. That's the whole point. I would say that most TSes who plan on becoming women have every intention of changing their name and gender legally, and that every one of us who is transitioning has every intention of going living 24/7, and never reverting back to male mode.

Unfortunately, some of us have difficulty changing our names. This may be because of financial, legal, including biased judges, emotional, or fear of losing something you have. In some cases a name & gender change may never happen. In other cases, we want to change our name & gender, but it doesn't happen right away. It may take several years to actually go ahead and do that.

Same thing with living 24/7. We may have obstacles preventing us from coming out at work or presenting as women when around family members.

Let me say that just as there are people here who believe that you must rigidly change your name & gender immediately and give up male mode immediately, there are people that I know of personally who believe rigidly that you should revert to male mode in the event that a family member gets sick, and you need to take care of them, and they request that you be in male mode when family is present. I disagree with both sides. I believe it's up to an individual to decide what's best for their transition, and to execute transition to the best that circumstances allow. Sometimes, we just have no control over what circumstances life will present us.

I truly believe that most of us have every intent of living 24/7 as a woman and legally changing our names & gender markers. We may have to wait a while before we do either of those, but we will it eventually. My question is why should someone who lived 24/7 as a woman with legal male name & gender for two years be forced to start over again and not count anything before the legal name & gender marker change. Wasn't significant experience gained during those two years?

Why should someone who lived as a woman for 11 months and then is asked to take care of a family member, in male mode, on weekends for 6 months, but still lives every other aspect of their lives as women, be forced to forfeit those 11 months?

I could understand someone who goes to work as male and lives as a woman only on weekends as not even being close to full-time.

And there are people who choose not to live full-time, there are people who are gender fluid. They are separate cases from those of us who intend to transition fully to female. But I'm just not a cookbook kind of a girl, am I? In a perfect world, than yes we should follow rigid protocols. But we don't live in a perfect world, far from it. If the world was a perfect place, we would have been born in the right bodies after all and there would be no point in transitioning.

I believe in tailoring to individual circumstances, provided that the individual follows through, as best as circumstances will allow for. I do believe that there is a good reason why making plans is important? But what about the transwoman who just couldn't function living as a man, and could barely hold a job and had difficulty saving money or planning things? This is a cruel condition we have. GD doesn't care about life circumstances, and life circumstances doesn't care about GD.

[becky77]

This is only about RLE.
Michelle it's irrelevant what the law in Texas is when you live in California, if someone has no money for name change, then they have no money for SRS, so again irrelevant.

Are you looking into SRS? If not don't worry about all this, RLE is meaningless.
If you are looking into SRS, get serious and sort yourself out.

So you have been living full-time, we only have your word on that. If I was the therapist about to write you a letter for major surgery, would I take your word for it??
Me personally I wouldn't, I would want to see evidence.
That's not a reflection on you, it's because there are a lot of people cheating the system.

Now you can fight that all you like and talk about guidelines or the problems in some other country.
But truth is you DO live where you can change your name and you are dragging your heels.
As it currently stands you are living as a man that presents as a woman, undoubtedly you are transitioning but that's not typically RLE.

For most of us it's confusing why you wouldn't prioritise name change if you are full-time? How can you bare it?
Be honest with yourself, is there any chance you are holding back due to some niggling doubt that's stopping you fully committing?



Simple fact is and I repeat this yet again, RLE is only a means to surgery (HRT also in some places). If you are serious about having SRS, you should be serious about transition.
You shouldn't be looking at excuses, you should be concentrating on living as a woman, if you are doing it properly then the RLE will be done naturally.
If you are concerned over RLE, then perhaps you aren't doing it properly.

No one is making you change your name, but what if you decide you are ready for SRS, go for your letters and they ask for proof?

Btw I am not saying your transition experience is meaningless, I'm just saying it may not constitute RLE.
In my opinion (assuming you want SRS?), go find out what is needed in California, ask the person that would write your letters what she requires as that's the person who decides your particular RLE.

[PaulaQ]

The amount of callous privilege exhibited in this thread is just freaking sad. So let me get this straight - someone with gender dysphoria over their genitals that is serious enough to make them attempt suicide should wait for a year before surgery just to be sure they don't change their freaking mind? How does that make any sense? (Please see another thread I've started elsewhere - I'm not making this example up.)

But don't worry ladies - it doesn't affect you, so it's not a real problem!

I'm pretty disgusted by most of the responses here.

[stefan37]

We are discussing what we think our definition of RLE and as a collarary Full time. The wpath recommendations are what they are. Don't like them. Lobby to change them.

My definition is simple. Live full time, be full time. That includes work, home, social. Etc. If someone wants to live as female with male Id and gender marker. That's their business. Transition is hard enough. Someone wants to make it harder. Ok.

Transition is also a very long process. It's takes tremendous energy and expense to go from living gender to gender. Also all this discussion about wait time. Try and get a surgery date within a year. In my case alone it has been a year from consultation to surgery. And all US surgeons require a letter. Which includes RLE. Since the the therapist is the one making that determination. Our opinions are moot.

You know it would be great if society just gave us blanket acceptance and support. But the brutal truth is a large majority think of us as freaks. The majority accept binary gender. Those that go about their lives as Trans are targets. They suffer ridicule, scorn, extreme violence and in some cases serious bodily injury or death.
The wpath recommendations are in place to help those deal with their GD. And in the case of those that do need to transition a means to hopefully accomplish the transition without regret. Many cases of those that rocketed to SRS. Or gamed the system to get it often times regret the decision and then blast others for their failure to do due diligence.

I know of an individual that was accepted and loved my her family and friends. Was out at work and financially secure. Was gorgeous and fun to be with. Yet for reasons known only to her or her family if she left a note took her own life.

I only speak from my experience. I came out to family, friend, employees, and clients looking before I went "full time. Which by the way was over a year. I officially went fulltime ( my definition,) when my name change was granted and gender marker change. Was I accepted as vendor. Hell no. The members in my Sailing club that I joined after name change. (They didn't know me before) treated me with acceptance. But many used male pronouns and thought I was a feminine male. I lived for 15 months before being able to afford FFS. I hear all these stories how HRT changes your face and body to pass as female. I say bravo Sierra to that. I grew Small b cup breasts that was it. My facial structure screamed male. That's a fact. Today after 3 years on HRT. I have male in body physiology. No butt, no hips, large shoulders, hands, and chest. You can't just day to the world I'm female accept me. It doesn't work that way. It's hard work. Damn hard work. And after all this work there are many due to genetics will not be accepted by society as female.

If you think society is going to sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya while an individual is living as female with male Id, gender marker, facial hair you are living in LA LA land. It has nothing to do with privilege and I have mine screw others. How many that you are talking about Paula have a plan for transition and some type of game plan to accomplish their goals. One thing transition absolutely requires is patience. This is a long process measured in years. Expecting instant gratification is a recipe for disaster.

[Aprilrain]

Paula, I have to disagree, I think a year to get your shit sorted out ie change name and sex marker (if you can), come out to friends, family, work, etc. and come to terms with the aftermath of all of that ie divorce, fired, moving, meeting new friends etc. is the absolute bare minimum one should have to wait. Anyway, most surgeons require that time period so your body has time to get use to a totally different set of hormones. And most surgeons are scheduling at least 6 months out and often longer anyway. The fact that someone who has lived with their genitals for 30, 40, 50 years suddenly decides to attempt or at least make it seem as though they are attempting to kill themselves because of it is more a testament of their lack of stability than it is a need for a life altering, irreversible surgery of questionable efficacy.

[Jorja]

This is only about RLE.
Michelle it's irrelevant what the law in Texas is when you live in California, if someone has no money for name change, then they have no money for SRS, so again irrelevant.

Are you looking into SRS? If not don't worry about all this, RLE is meaningless.
If you are looking into SRS, get serious and sort yourself out.

So you have been living full-time, we only have your word on that. If I was the therapist about to write you a letter for major surgery, would I take your word for it??
Me personally I wouldn't, I would want to see evidence.
That's not a reflection on you, it's because there are a lot of people cheating the system.

Now you can fight that all you like and talk about guidelines or the problems in some other country.
But truth is you DO live where you can change your name and you are dragging your heels.
As it currently stands you are living as a man that presents as a woman, undoubtedly you are transitioning but that's not typically RLE.

For most of us it's confusing why you wouldn't prioritise name change if you are full-time? How can you bare it?
Be honest with yourself, is there any chance you are holding back due to some niggling doubt that's stopping you fully committing?



Simple fact is and I repeat this yet again, RLE is only a means to surgery (HRT also in some places). If you are serious about having SRS, you should be serious about transition.
You shouldn't be looking at excuses, you should be concentrating on living as a woman, if you are doing it properly then the RLE will be done naturally.
If you are concerned over RLE, then perhaps you aren't doing it properly.

No one is making you change your name, but what if you decide you are ready for SRS, go for your letters and they ask for proof?

Btw I am not saying your transition experience is meaningless, I'm just saying it may not constitute RLE.
In my opinion (assuming you want SRS?), go find out what is needed in California, ask the person that would write your letters what she requires as that's the person who decides your particular RLE.


Paula, I have to disagree, I think a year to get your shit sorted out ie change name and sex marker (if you can), come out to friends, family, work, etc. and come to terms with the aftermath of all of that ie divorce, fired, moving, meeting new friends etc. is the absolute bare minimum one should have to wait. Anyway, most surgeons require that time period so your body has time to get use to a totally different set of hormones. And most surgeons are scheduling at least 6 months out and often longer anyway. The fact that someone who has lived with their genitals for 30, 40, 50 years suddenly decides to attempt or at least make it seem as though they are attempting to kill themselves because of it is more a testament of their lack of stability than it is a need for a life altering, irreversible surgery of questionable efficacy.

These are the two best replies of this whole conversation. Good job girls! At least someone understands it.

[becky77]

I thought we were discussing RLE?

Paula If you want to talk about other people's misery lets open a new thread.
Privileged? Didn't you say you had your SRS date?

For your information I didn't write the rules on RLE, I'm desperate to get rid of this male genitalia, but I can't afford it.
So I'm relying on the NHS and that means I have to go by their process, probably another couple of years for me (huge waiting lists), how do you think that makes me feel?
Am I bitching about it? Am I telling everyone how I felt so low I nearly drove my car off the road?
Well I am now to prove a point, we all have problems. But as April said I've waited this long, what's a few more years?

Next you'll be telling me I can't say I dislike bacon, because somewhere in the world someone is starving.

Congratulations Paula you are a the ultimate Trans martyr, now can we please go back to the original subject.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Jeez paula..

Im not even sure this should be controversial..
if a person tries to commit suicide over their genitals that should lead to more time not less before any type of srs operation...that should lead to counseling and RLE , it should not be a fast track to a surgery...that's the last thing we need..

what you are suggesting is an insane proposition that sound ridiculous when you consider what it implies....I tried to kill myself, so operate on me...Operate on me or I will kill myself...
suicide attempts or thoughts are not "bonafides" for suffering... they are not tickets to something you need..

"Marry me" or I will kill myself..... "If you fire me, I will kill myself"... you posit that a suicide attempt is a marker for need, and therefore should be considered..... sorry that's not constructive and it just doesn't fly..

your last comment doesn't resonate with me...its not going to win anybody over... poverty, loss, depression, hopelessness and violence are not limited to West Texas and its sure as hell not limited to transsexuals..

Part of the ts RLE is that you can't have everything you want... you are not your dream woman, your body can't make babies, people will look/point at you, clothes wont fit right, wigs sweat, hair grows, you will raise your voice and laugh/cough too loud, you may suffer loss, the HRT is unpredictable, the surgeries can have complications and are not magic...you may not ever feel comfortable....that's REAL...

[LeaP]

... I think a year to get your shit sorted out ... is the absolute bare minimum one should have to wait. Anyway, most surgeons require that time period so your body has time to get use to a totally different set of hormones.

... The fact that someone who has lived with their genitals for 30, 40, 50 years suddenly decides to attempt or at least make it seem as though they are attempting to kill themselves because of it is more a testament of their lack of stability than it is a need for a life altering, irreversible surgery of questionable efficacy.

A year seems like a good starting point to me, though I've discussed a shorter period with both my therapist and doctor. Your comment on hormones is applicable, as one reason they agree to support a shorter period is the length of time I have been on hormones (3 years), including living with the andryogyny that's resulted. That doesn't replace the need for RLE, of course, but does inform the decision to flex the guidelines. Will I pursue the shorter period? Don't know yet. I'm trying to line up my ducks for several things right now and it makes the timeline look pretty daunting anyway.

I accept your basic point on stability in the second cite, all things equal, but it's also true to a point that it doesn't matter how one has coped through life. When SHTF or your bell is rung (pick your conception), it can get really bad really quickly. The same objection to transition itself is made by cis people all the time - why do you need this ... after all, you've lived your entire life so far ...

Kaitlyn, I want to play devil's advocate for a second. GD (real GD) is disabling by definition. Suicidality is one THE most prevalent consequences, as all of us know. Generalizing your response to lives and issues outside of the TS sphere doesn't help. Suicidality - like any other GD-related issue - is mitigated or "cured" by transition, assuming it's completely due to GD, of course. I do think there's an excellent argument for differentiating a suicide crisis from suicidality per se. But the presence of the latter should not put SRS out of scope, either.

[arbon]

,



Unfortunately, some of us have difficulty changing our names. This may be because of financial, legal, including biased judges, emotional, or fear of losing something you have. In some cases a name & gender change may never happen. In other cases, we want to change our name & gender, but it doesn't happen right away. It may take several years to actually go ahead and do that.

Same thing with living 24/7. We may have obstacles preventing us from coming out at work or presenting as women when around family members.

Let me say that just as there are people here who believe that you must rigidly change your name & gender immediately and give up male mode immediately, there are people that I know of personally who believe rigidly that you should revert to male mode in the event that a family member gets sick, and you need to take care of them, and they request that you be in male mode when family is present. I disagree with both sides. I believe it's up to an individual to decide what's best for their transition, and to execute transition to the best that circumstances allow. Sometimes, we just have no control over what circumstances life will present us.
.....
Why should someone who lived as a woman for 11 months and then is asked to take care of a family member, in male mode, on weekends for 6 months, but still lives every other aspect of their lives as women, be forced to forfeit those 11 months?



No one here says you must change your name and gender immediately.
No one disagrees that an individual must set the pace for their transition and do what is best for them based on their circumstances.

There is, in my opinion, a line between full time and not full time though. Or RLE and non RLE if you must. And I am a person who had to go through some hell to change her name, who had to put survival ahead of full time for a while. Who lost her house and went bankrupt and became a roommate in her wifes home during that period of being out but not full time. I am very aware of how hard it can be. So don't give me all that you are not understanding how bad it can be crap. My nerves at that time were shot, I was suicidal, self destructive, I twitched all the time from stress.. I came on here and made stupid arguments about being full time except.
Do you think SRS was going to fix those living problems? that period it was for me to get my life on track again, that was the priority not SRS.
You talk about forfeiting time, there is no one to forfeit to! It does not matter to anyone but the person. If you are not yet to a place where you can deal with those hard situations as a woman are you really ready for such a major surgery? It is not going to make you better able to deal with them.




But don't worry ladies - it doesn't affect you, so it's not a real problem!

I'm pretty disgusted by most of the responses here.

Pauala! Please don't try to shame us like that. I think most of us have gone through plenty and are sharing based on what we have experienced in our lives.
We know it is not always easy. I begged, borrowed, and delivered pizza...and did some things that I really was not proud of, for my SRS. And that was a lot easier than what I had to go through earlier in my transition to get to full time!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Soooo insightful!!!!!

i lied, i stole, i cheated...i debased myself in many ways as self punishment...is my suffering and loss invalid because i was born in a better place with a better starting point?
should i be ashamed of being born with some priviledges...nope.

Trust me, I know ALL ABOUT shame...

It really is totally and completely wrong to rank suffering as if suicidal ideation is the standard...and attempting suicide gets you to a desired result...

as far as the whole what is RLE question
To write down words to try to say something is what it is not is such a sad waste of energy..

if you have gender dysphoria, definitions will not help you, labels will not help you, negotiation will not help you..

being yourself is what will help you...it doesnt matter what you call it.... but calling RLE exactly what it is helps us all communicate and find the best way to help ourselves

[stefan37]

I might add one other factor which isn't talked much about. What happens when the surgery goes awrye. How is the individual that is that suicidal if they don't get SRS going to cope with the fact that the surgery wasn't a success. There are complications such as graft necrosis, rectal/vaginal fistula requiring a colostomy bag. Granular tissue.

Lea you talk of a shorter time frame when you eventually go full time. You also mention FFS. Some do get both FFS and SRS at the same time. That's a difficult thing and a long time under the knife. I couldn't imagine recovering from FFS at the same time recovering from SRS. So you need to prioritize. US surgeons are for the most part booked a year or farther out. Allowing the body to heal and recover makes sense when contemplating multiple surgeries.

[Frances]

I agree with Kaitlyn. If it's now or never, then more therapy is needed, not surgery. Social transition is everything. SRS will not change anything for a transitioner who will never pass. The viewpoint of the government program I went through was that transitioners should be so well integrated that SRS did not matter anymore. (They also paid for it.)

[Nigella]

Wow, just wow, what an emotive discussion this thread has developed into :)

[Badtranny]

Man I love it when my girls 'get all up in it'.

PaulaQ, your recent post sounds an awful lot like the old PaulaQ that I was convinced was probably crazy, until I met you that is. Please review your tone on that one because the other gals have some damn good rebuttals.

Arbon, I am blown away by your growth as an authentic person. It appears that while I was away, you had quite a life. I'm also happy to see that you now understand and advocate for the difference between being real, and wearing women's clothes. Sometimes I think that transitioning is a little bit like being dragged behind a truck, ...it totally messes up your hair.

Ladies, this RLE thing is just a Three Letter Acronym for early transition. We can argue all day about why it should or shouldn't be required, but even if it wasn't, I would personally want to be very careful about THAT surgery anyway.

My therapist told me that gender was a lived experience, meaning it is impossible to experience life as a woman unless you are out there interacting in all things as a woman. CD's like to say they spend days as a woman, but what they really mean is they dress up and stay in their house. Putting women's clothes on a man does not make him a woman. These people who say "I live most of my life as a woman". What are they talking about? Are they out living their life 'as a woman' or are they just dressing up and shopping? Living your life 'as a woman' requires complete immersion. There can be no 'safety plan'. The RLE is the safety plan. If you can't handle the first year in full immersion (everything, bills, paychecks, loans, buying/selling) then you are simply not ready for a gender transition. There is nothing wrong with not being ready. Maybe you'll be ready for the second year, but the 'system' wants to see a full year of living completely in your target gender under your belt before they sign off on a surgery that will change your life forever. I don't see a problem with that, and I am practically an anarchist.

What Arbon has learned is that there is a huuuuuge difference between living your real life as a woman and dressing like a woman. She has probably also learned that living as a woman, may not even include dressing like a woman. At the end of it all, people who transition don't do it for the clothes. We do it for the peace. I'm not working now, so I've spent the last two days without a shower in sweat pants and a tshirt and no underwear. I haven't had a reason to leave the house so I haven't. Now a CD might have used this time to "live as a woman" for two whole days and maybe run through several outfit changes and of course panties. I am the one who is actually living like a woman because that is how the rest of the world knows me by now. My entire life is in a woman's name. Melissa's mail comes to my address. My rapidly dwindling savings account is in Melissa's name. There is no doubt that I have committed to this thing that I said was important to me. That's what RLE is about. It isn't about dresses or surgeries, it's about commitment. Transition requires a resolve like nothing else. There is no ladder into the abyss, you must jump.

The 'gatekeepers' don't know your heart. They don't know your spirit. They may not have seen your "How girly am I?" test results. All they know is what you show them and if you show them excuses about why you can't commit to the process. Can't commit to a life as your target gender. Isn't it reasonable that they would be reluctant to make things worse by helping you go down a road that you, yourself aren't even sure you want to be on?

[Suzanne F]

What a thread! Yes I am painfully aware of the difference in dressing up and being a woman. Yes I think it takes more than just screaming I need surgery for the medical field to opt to perform surgery. I think RLE means living as a woman. I do think the individual therapist should have the ability to determine whether the person in question is really on track to do this. I want to advocate however for people who have a well thought out plan for transition. Everyone here knows I came out at work yesterday and had my name and gender changed legally this week. Both things had been discussed at length with my psychiatrist, my therapist and my endocrinologist. As a team we have been battling this together. This has allowed me to live as a woman in all kinds of situations the last year and a half except work. This allowed me to start hormones 4 months ago knowing I had a little more time before revealing at work. Now the timing of disclosing at work should protect me from having my insurance affected before I have SRS. I have all the required letters from the three health professionals involved here. By the time I have surgery , next June hopefully, think it will have been apparent I did my part of the work. However if I had been required to a strict reading of RLE then I would have had to come out at work and risk losing my valuable insurance that will pay for the very surgery I require to live as myself! Note that is just my requirement, not for anyone else. My point is that I was encouraged to come up with a plan. I did and I think it is working!
Suzanne

[LeaP]

Steph, there is no ways on God's good earth that I would consider FFS and SRS at the same time!!! I wouldn't even consider FFS and a BA at the same time. I would LIKE to pursue FFS before pulling the pin ... I mean, what the heck - if you're going to pull the pin and HOLD ON to the grenade, why not get the face fixed in advance? That may not be possible anyway as time is short. And if not, I would wait for a healing time of 6 months for SRS at least anyways. There are other factors that may play anyway, particularly insurance. What I want may not be what I get. No problem - I'll deal.

On topic, it seems hard to argue against mental stability as a requirement for deciding on a life-changing surgery. I'm all for stability. Had I gone down the path before I started sorting myself out and stabilizing, transition (and certainly surgeries) would have been an absolute disaster.

On the other hand (surely you knew this was coming), such stability is not only not required for surgery, WPATH has recognized that people with various impairments may be candidates for surgery. From the SOC7, page 25:


The presence of coexisting mental health concerns does not necessarily preclude possible change in gender role or access to feminizing/masculizing hormones or surgery; rather, these concerns need to be optimally managed prior to, or concurrent with, treatment of gender dysphoria. In addition, client should be assessed for the their ability to provide educated and informed consent for medical treatments.

"Optimally managed" is a bus-sized hole, of course. The ability to consent is pretty absolute in this context. Nonetheless, the possibility remains open, subject to the judgement of the providers involved.

[edit] I should mention that the context of the SOC quote is provided in the preceeding paragraph, and includes: "... anxiety, depression, self-harm, a history of abuse and neglect, compulsivity, substance abuse, sexual concerns, personality disorders, eating disorders, psychotic disorders, and autistic spectrum disorders." I.e., they aren't talking about impatience and frustration.

[arbon]

I'm also happy to see that you now understand and advocate for the difference between being real, and wearing women's clothes. Sometimes I think that transitioning is a little bit like being dragged behind a truck, ...it totally messes up your hair.

What Arbon has learned is that there is a huuuuuge difference between living your real life as a woman and dressing like a woman. She has probably also learned that living as a woman, may not even include dressing like a woman. At the end of it all, people who transition don't do it for the clothes.

The 'gatekeepers' don't know your heart. They don't know your spirit. They may not have seen your "How girly am I?" test results. All they know is what you show them and if you show them excuses about why you can't commit to the process. Can't commit to a life as your target gender. Isn't it reasonable that they would be reluctant to make things worse by helping you go down a road that you, yourself aren't even sure you want to be on?

It was NEVER EVER about the cloths for me and I don't really appreciate the implication you make that it was while trying to make your point. It has always been about my identity. Cloths were a means to an end in how others saw me. I never thought of it as a her mode or his mode.
I did not change my name and fully transition when I wanted because my work was not going along with it. I was told no and then they tried to make me quit. I got myself stuck in a corner. A year and a half later when I forced the issue by legally changing my name I expected to be fired but was instead given a dress code that prohibited me from skirts, dresses, makeup or looking to feminine while at work because they were to chicken $hit to actually try to fire me. You told me at the time that was not going to serve me well to not dress more feminine. It was not about the cloths and never was.

It WAS about commitment as you say though. I had to deal with the work issue eventually to move forward, before being able to deal with all the rest of it. I had to be committed to being me and doing what it was going to take to make it real. No one else could do it for me.

When I went for my letters RLE was a non issue and I expected no resistance to receiving the letters and got none because I was by that point very confident in who I was. All the hard fights had been fought and won. When I had gone for a different letter a year earlier I was not as confident or sure of myself. Still it was not about the cloths but about being comfortable with myself and who I am.

edit:

I would also say about RLE - I am opinionated about having your name changed, but the time frame of RLE for surgery should be completely between the person, their therapists and doctors and no one else because everyone is different and their time for readiness is different.

[Aprilrain]

I might add one other factor which isn't talked much about. What happens when the surgery goes awrye. How is the individual that is that suicidal if they don't get SRS going to cope with the fact that the surgery wasn't a success.

Exactly right! I can attest to the fact that surgeries do not always go as planed. I've had 4 surgeries and all of them have left scars of one sort or another. If the point of SRS was to create a functioning sex organ than my surgery has been a failure. And just so everyone who thinks SRS is the holy grail knows, DILATION SUCKS and you have to do it for the rest of your life!!

[Zooey]

I believe in the usefulness of standards - they're designed to prevent the most obvious and/or common problems in the vast majority of cases, and more often than not they do exactly that.

I also believe that standards are not laws, and that there are always exceptional cases that warrant special treatment (even if such treatment is in direct violation of the usual standards). The vast majority of people who believe they are an exceptional case are, in fact, NOT exceptional cases, but if a medical team feels or can be convinced that special treatment is warranted then special treatment should happen - whatever that may mean.

Handling special cases does not mean that the prevailing standard has no value in the other 95% of cases, and in fact the level of scrutiny should be higher for special cases than it is for standards-conforming cases.

[Badtranny]

It was NEVER EVER about the cloths for me and I don't really appreciate the implication you make that it was while trying to make your point. .

I didn't make myself clear. Obviously. :-*

I was saying that you now know and advocate for the difference because of the difficulties you had to endure to be real. Perhaps you didn't transition for the clothes, but before the full transition, you don't really KNOW what you'll find on the other side. I didn't spend much time cross dressing but I'll tell you right now I wasn't able to articulate the difference between dressing like a woman and being one until fairly recently. It took actually living as a woman for me to clearly see the divide between pretending and being. Maybe I'm a slow learner.

Have we been in so many arguments that you are unable to recognize when I'm on your side? :-)

[LeaP]

There is another thread going concerning year two, post transition. If year two is more difficult, what does that say about the efficacy – or perhaps length – of RLE?

[Peggie Lee]

There is another thread going concerning year two, post transition. If year two is more difficult, what does that say about the efficacy – or perhaps length – of RLE?

LeaP
As for me, RLE began 18 months ago and life's ups and downs will always be there no matter what, I have not experienced any difference in my second year other than my SRS date is now only 60 days away.

[Angela Campbell]

there are people that I know of personally who believe rigidly that you should revert to male mode in the event that a family member gets sick, and you need to take care of them, and they request that you be in male mode when family is present. I disagree with both sides. I believe it's up to an individual to decide what's best for their transition, and to execute transition to the best that circumstances allow. Sometimes, we just have no control over what circumstances life will present us.





I agree that sometimes you have to do what is best for your situation, but this example is one of which tells me that the person is not full time and is not experiencing RLE. To de transition for any reason means that you are not living full time. You have not fully transitioned to full time if there is ANY reason you would revert back. That is the entire reason for the RLE, to gain the experience of NOT being able to go back. If there ARE reasons then you may not be ready....suppose you had SRS and later decided that you really want a penis because of a new lover....? You cannot go back....RLE is there to affirm that you get the experience of not going back.


That said I also believe that everyone should be responsible for their own actions and live with the results of those actions. Therefore I do see RLE as both a useful tool for the person seeking SRS (one that I did follow) and one that is firmly a gatekeeper tool to protect you from yourself.

[LeaP]

LeaP
As for me, RLE began 18 months ago and life's ups and downs will always be there no matter what, I have not experienced any difference in my second year other than my SRS date is now only 60 days away.

I'm certainly happy that is has not been dramatic for you. Nonetheless, I would HOPE that those who commented on the phenomenon weren't simply talking about life's little ups and downs.

[stefan37]

It's not life's up and downs. My life is actually going well. I get along well and work well with my ex. My family is supportive. Business is phenomenal. I am extremely healthy. I had a rough month with a severe week of being gendered male. It most likely has do with expectations. I spent a small fortune on facial reconstruction and to pull up to someone and get gendered male was a tad deflating. Don't get me wrong the surgery worked and it introduced a whole new level of comfort. Living full-time without the benefit of facial surgery was a good experience. I had to concentrate on the little stuff that cues us male. Maybe it was the expectation of facial surgery. The surgery allows one to instantly be gendered female. But spend some time with people and they tend to figure out somethings off. If could be the stress of s tr SRS. Surgery is planned for early Nov. I am still waiting for preop clearances from my gastroenterologist. My family doctor has cleared me. I am still about 10 grand short and I need to have my payments in 6 weeks.

2 years full-time. I have only begun to scratch the surface to being accepted as female. I am excepted in the woman's locker room where I swim daily, but it is a different interaction than the other women have with each other.

I am comforted that others here father along and more experienced have gone through periods I am experiencing now. And this experience is more common than some of the fairy tale transitions I read about.

[becky77]

I took this off the frequently asked questions on the NHS Gender clinics website. (West London mental health).
http://www.wlmht.nhs.uk/gi/gender-identity-clinic/about-the-clinic/frequently-asked-questions/

How long will the process take?
There is a two year real life experience (RLE) of living in the reassigned gender role at the GIC for people who want to have genital reconstruction surgery (GRS). This is dated from the start of full-time gender role transition after which they can be assessed for referral for GRS. The RLE includes at least a year in some form of agreed occupational activities.


Why do I have to do the real life experience (RLE)?
The RLE, sometimes called the real life test is the period of time when a person lives 100% in their preferred gender. This means that they are known to their friends and family as well as at work (paid or voluntary) or at their place of study or daily occupation as their preferred gender.

The literature and our own clinical experience, as well as the national and international guidelines are very clear that people have fewer regrets after surgery and hormones if they have had experience living all the time in their preferred gender. Consequently before referring for surgery we do ask people to have completed the RLE.

Occasionally people who are certain that they want hormonal and surgical treatment at the outset of their gender reassignment treatment at the GIC do revert back to their initial gender role even as late as 18 months into the RLE. There are examples of people who have “detransitioned” then regretted changes made in the course of transition.

[Eryn]

I read many statements like that above, but I've still not found any actual studies on the efficacy of RLE.

What do statements like "The literature and our own clinical experience, as well as the national and international guidelines are very clear that people have fewer regrets after surgery and hormones..." truly mean?

It means "We read that others are forcing their patients to have RLE because they feel it leads to fewer regrets so we will do the same thing here." "Literature" does not mean "legitimate clinical studies" though that is what they are trying to imply. Their "clinical experience" doesn't count for much because they have no clinical experience with anyone not complying with their concept of RLE! All their information about poor outcomes for people who did not do RLE is anecdotal, and anecdotes are not how science is legitimately done.

One wonders what the reaction would be if women who wanted breast enhancements were forced to wear breast forms 24/7 for 1-2 years before being allowed the surgery? Yes, it would reduce the amount of "post-breast-enhancement regret" but it would be rightly viewed as condescending.

Now, that being said, in my own case I wouldn't conceive of surgery without having lived the way I intend for a considerable period of time. I'm just not that focused on my genitalia for this to be a hardship. However, that is my own personal belief and others should have the freedom to feel and act differently if they see fit.

[Rianna Humble]

Eryn, I'm glad to read that you are so familiar with the experiences of the trust that have been supporting me. I have heard a rumour, though, that my doctor may be considering retirement. Could you tell me how much longer he plans to stay?

[Eryn]

Rianna, I don't understand your question. I believe that you may be referring to my interpretation of the piece of boilerplate text that I quoted, but I don't see any relationship to a "trust."

I am simply pointing out that many of those who promulgate RLE rules are simply repeating what has been done before. They try to make it sound justified by referring to vague sources like "the literature" but it still seems that there is no substantial research behind their policies.

[stefan37]

Forget all the WPATH recommendations, surgeries etc. If you need to TRANSITION and live as the opposite gender FULLTIME 24/7. It will realistically take over a year to assimilate and integrate.

If someone needs to move faster than a year. Good speed to them. I can almost guarantee they will have a very difficult transition. That isn't too say some have the genetics, financial means and legal support to do it successfully sooner. But the majority of us have at least one and in many cases multiple obstacles that prevent moving that quickly. There is so much discussion in this thread about SRS. Most later life transitioners will find it easier to live 24/7 and experience I higher level of comfort with FFS. FFS will do more to improve your quality of life. I am not addressing the small minority that differs from extreme body dysphora.

Transition is a very long process. One should have a five year plan to fully and completely integrate

[LeaP]

Steph, yes. While I have been talking about speeding things up, in fact, I have been slowed by circumstances thus far.

Control is illusory.

[Kimberly Kael]

I am simply pointing out that many of those who promulgate RLE rules are simply repeating what has been done before. They try to make it sound justified by referring to vague sources like "the literature" but it still seems that there is no substantial research behind their policies.

It's not my field but I'd be shocked if "the literature" were intended as a vague way to obfuscate the lack of research. Collective psychiatric experience and what social science does exist may well confirm the need for an adjustment period. I'd be quite surprised if it were otherwise, given my own anecdotal experience with friends, colleagues, and acquaintances who have transitioned. Those who take a slow and steady approach seem to fare rather better than those who try to set speed records. I worked with one fellow who went full steam through BA, FFS, etc. at the same time as a public transition complete with television interviews. He has since de-transitioned.