Differing Opinions

[Nigella]

There have been a number of "discussions" on perspectives in the context of being transexual.

Lets look at this maybe a different way, there is a vast difference in peoples perspective on what makes a transexual, that is often bourne out by the discussions that take place, which gets backs up because one size does not fit all.

How about separating what appears to be the biggest issue, how does the description transitioner fit in with those who are taking an active step towards integrating fully with society in the gender they feel they are?

OMG another label, and yet more arguments to follow?

[stefan37]

I'm not going to get into how one identifies as TS. There are so many arguments from those that say they are TS, but live and function as males. It gets pointless.

Misty coined the term a couple years ago. Transitioner. Although another label but I think if we define the criteria that a transitioner is one that is socially, transitioning to live their lives as the opposite gender 24/7. Timelines aside. The objective is coming out to family, friends, work. Changing legal name and gender. Then the term had meaning.

I notice lots of posts end up with part timers, those wishing to live socially except for... (Fill in the blank). Get bent out of shape and feel as if their experience is either not credible or valid. While I'm sure some of it and I don't discredit their experience. It simply is not the same as those that do come out to the world. Change their legal name and gender. Go to work or seek employment as their target gender. As I read these various posts. It occurs to me that the biggest differentiator is work. Coming out at work is what separates us and our experience. The experience is different. Many of those on the part time fence say we are belittling or elitest. It is neither. Our experience is different. The daily challenges are different. We all have different levels of intensity. The means by which we find a place of balance to mitigate the GD to give us the best quality of life. But at the end of day what we have in common is we live our lives 24/7. Or they are actively pursuing that goal.

[Angela Campbell]

There is a difference between those who fully transition and those who don't. Call it whatever, there is much difference. No amount of part time gives the same experience.

"Transitioner" gives the indication that something is changing. Could be a change to part time, or a full transition. Every one does what they need. Neither is better or more prestigious. But the term doesn't specify full time, nor how far into fully living in the gender.

[emma5410]

There is no point in coming up with a new label because it will be quickly appropriated or redefined until it becomes meaningless. Those who try to keep the meaning will be called elitist. You can try and explain that transitioner means socially transitioning but before you know it someone who is part time or have not changed their name will claim it. If you object then you will be accused of bullying. It is totally ridiculous.

As others have said, living 24/7 with your name changed and everybody in your life, plus random strangers, knowing is totally different than anything less. How do we know. Because we have been there and done it.

Many of us were part time in some sense before we went full time. We know what that is like. Those who are still part time do not know what it is to be full time. It is as simple as that.

[LeaP]

I like "transitioner" and I like a clear definition for it. For me, that baseline is full-time living in the target gender, 24-7-366. I hate to even use the term "social transition" because some people take that as "full time except at work."

So, full-time. Full stop.

Not intending, not planning, not "in transition." I am engaged in all of these, but am nonetheless not a "transitioner" - not until I pull the pin (see current avatar).

The term is a great clarifier. Not of everything, but close enough between BS and fantasy.

[Tina_gm]

I am not going to attempt a label, but thought I would offer my observations from someone who internally feels more I am more than a CDer but not TS. There are many CD's who I feel have less internal gender issues, yet brave enough, smart enough or dumb enough and or possibly lucky enough to have found a place in life where they can CD freely as much and as far as they wish to. For me it is not about simply what I can do, but how it will affect my life and how much I would be benefitting or losing.


Anyway, My observation is that when it comes to TS and CD, or whether to be or not to be.... CDers tend to like to add female things to cover up the male, but not to get rid of it, and only for a period of time. Fantasy or whatever it is considered. But it is an act of accumulating, and covering up. When it comes to TS, I have noticed that there is usually the most joy or relief gained not by adding or covering up, but of ridding male markers as much as adding female ones, possibly even more. I would think that because a TS person is already female internally, so it is more of a need to shed the male to uncover the female and let her live freely. TS people don't have as much of a need to add feminine as they already are, and covering up is only a temporary fix until the male is shed altogether.

CD posts- Went shopping, got my nails done, wore a skirt and the wind blew woohoo. Here, it's I'm on blockers, got laser hair removal, laryngeal shave, FFS, and of course, SRS. All acts of removing of male markers to uncover what is felt underneath. So, that is my observation from my perspective.

[Nigella]

This thread is not about being TS, that term has been so misrepresented that it is so blurred, you need to squint to see it. This is about identifying those who are actively in the process of going over the bridge and burning the bloody thing to a pile of ashes.

As Emma has pointed out, how long before a "none" transitioner feels peeved because they don't fit the description and starts to call foul? Why can't I be a transitioner, I'm out to XYZ, but not at work, oh by the way I still want to be called Fred?

IMHO the two terms are very different, TS does not mean Transitioner, not that this is a move to create another label or sub group :)

[Tina_gm]

Sorry, I guess I am guilty of not getting the point of the thread here. Transitioner? I personally would be equating that to someone who is actively in the process of transitioning, so I am thinking that this person who is a transitioner is TS?? I think there can be, obviously before there was such a thing as transition those who were TS and not transitioning, so they would be non transitioners? Is the argument that they are not TS if they are non transitioners?

[Nigella]

NO, that is not what I am saying. I don't believe that has even been intimated at. Your statement above just goes to show how what appears to me to be a simple question/statement can be read by someone else and totally miss the point of the post, or put their own interpretation on it.

[arbon]

A woman. I like that best. Probably opens a whole other can of worms on what means what though.

[becky77]

I don't think you need to identify as a woman to transition, if the GD and need to be authentic is strong enough it can happen.
By definition that person may relate to being a woman, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they fully identity with being a woman.

If you asked me what I thought a TS was, I would say it's someone born with a male body with a female identity or visa versa for FTM.

If you asked me what a Transitioner was, I would say it's someone that is going full-time as a different gender role. I guess I'm guilty of assuming that's always a binary change, I'm learning that's not always the case.
In society life is easier if you follow the binary route, Isha makes me rethink stuff these days, do we put too much emphasis on identity in regard to transition?

It's so hard not to try relate other people's stories to my own, it's easy to dismiss another person's experience because it doesn't match mine and that's wrong.

[Michelle789]

I think all experiences and viewpoints are valid. I think most of the arguments start from people who are unable to understand any experience other than their own as being valid, and from insisting that your way is the only right way. No offense, but does this sound very familiar. It sounds a lot like a subject that we're not allowed to discuss on the forum. The subject of religion, and how people of one religion think that other religions are invalid. I'll shut up on religion now, and mods please feel free to delete the religion comment if it's breaking any rules.

But this is exactly what's happening. There are many different paths to transition, and many personal experiences we have. To say that my path is the only right way to do it and not be able to see the other viewpoints is the root of all our problems. And the root of that is a lack of empathy. The lack of the ability to truly place yourself in another person's shoes and feel their position.

Example was with the legal name change. I understand why you feel there is a need to change your name and gender ASAP. It might ease the dysphoria and make life more bearable if you change name & gender right away. But I feel that people on the other side don't understand why some of us don't change our name & gender right away, and are acting as if their way is the only correct path. When you say that you're not full-time unless you've changed your name & gender, you're failing to understand those who are full-time and haven't changed their name & gender yet.

You are entitled to feel that changing name & gender are important. And most of us who haven't done so have every intention of doing so eventually. Some of us will change name & gender eventually, and others will never have circumstances that prevent them from doing so. But when you say that these people, many of whom are underprivileged, aren't full-time or in RLE because they have't changed their name & gender, you are failing to empathize with them and see their viewpoint. You're saying that because of whatever circumstance prevented them from changing name & gender, they are not full-time and RLE and their experience is not.

I also think a huge problem among TSes - both on this forum and in real life - is this idea that because we have had to suffer and because the world is a cruel place, that we somehow need to prepare you for the hardship we're going to endure in the real world.

It is really sick that we trans people act as cruel as cis people. You know what, I'll honestly say that the behavior from within the community is the reason why people hate us. People hate us because too many transwomen are as cruel as the cis population can be. I'll say it bluntly. Right now I really am disgusted with all of humanity - with 99% of cis people and 99% of transwomen. We're no better than cis people. We're no better than religious fundamentalists that tell everyone that they're going to hell. I hate to even bring up religion, but it's the truth. I honestly feel that the attitudes I see from some people makes us like Evangelical or fundamentalist TSes. Well I identify as TS, but I'm not a fundamentalist TS. And it's not just what I see on the forum. I've seen this in the real life TS community as well.

[Kate T]

Doesn't even the "transitioner" label / description still imply a binary gender assumption? It is my reading that it is not so much the label / descriptor as the assumption that descriptor implies a binary gender and sex construction?

[arbon]

I also think a huge problem among TSes - both on this forum and in real life - is this idea that because we have had to suffer and because the world is a cruel place, that we somehow need to prepare you for the hardship we're going to endure in the real world.

People share their experience and opinion here. Would you rather them not? If you don't like what someone has to say is it their fault?

You know experiences here vary from those who had extremely difficult times to others who got through without much ordeal at all.

[becky77]

Doesn't even the "transitioner" label / description still imply a binary gender assumption? It is my reading that it is not so much the label / descriptor as the assumption that descriptor implies a binary gender and sex construction?

Very much so for a TS transitioner, transition is from one gender to the other in the eyes of the outside world (in a place of work for example).
It's not how you see yourself, it's how you now let others see you. It's very much a public thing, in essence if you have always identified as female/male your not the one changing, the change is in how others perceive you.

If you take someone that comes out to everyone as Transgender, lets say they identify as male but need female appearance to mitigate GD, that's still a transition.
It just not transition as we typically define it here, the vast majority of people that transition are binary TS as far as I know?

[Carlene]

It seems there should be a recognition of those who come out to the world and share the real life experience of gender born women. Having said that, albeit different, there are many in the trans community who know themselves to be women but can't cross the bridge as someone stated. I suppose the most accurate definition for us is to be transgender, and I for one am okay with this. I know who I am, and how I feel

In any event, is the accuracy of definition all that important? We are all sisters (loosely defined).

Have a wonderful day everyone,
Carlene

[I Am Paula]

All my TS friends are the most binary people I've ever met. They are their target gender, and accept no substitute.

[Nigella]

Some are so set in their ways that they cannot even see that this thread is not about being TS, but about identifying those TSs who transition in full view of the whole world, you DO NOT have to transition to be TS, crikey, just google "Define Transexual" (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Define+Transexual) to see that there are so many different definitions, that the term itself has become meaningless.

Maybe some should just stop and think about how their view is not the only view, it certainly seems that they want validation from others here. Just put the back of your hand on the desk as you log off, I'm sure we can validate your view, pink or black ink Madam?

[arbon]

I don't think you need to identify as a woman to transition, if the GD and need to be authentic is strong enough it can happen.


My own experience was that I did not identify as a woman when I started transition. I always wished I was female but my mind had never made that click to knowing I was. I thought I was just a really sick guy, who really hated being a guy. And was very confused by it all.

[Jorja]

What kind of grey boring world would it be if we all agreed all the time?

Some if the disparity is location and language. You in the UK, me in the USA. You Say Tomahto, I Say Tomato. If we pass this saying around the world, by the time it gets back, it is something totally different like apples and oranges. Then there is the media aspect. They mix up everything they touch. We know that Transgender is different than Transsexual. They don't and have shortened the whole thing so that Transgender is an all inclusive term. This is where the confusion comes in. We now have thousands of news broadcasts and new shows spreading this new all inclusive term to millions of cis gender people who could really care less. So now, am I TG or TS? It is up to us to educate and straighten out what the media has screwed up.

[arbon]

How can we educate and straighten it out for them when we usually don't even agree?

[LeaP]

I think all experiences and viewpoints are valid. I think most of the arguments start from people who are unable to understand any experience other than their own as being valid, and from insisting that your way is the only right way. ...

... And the root of that is a lack of empathy. ...

... When you say that you're not full-time unless you've changed your name & gender, you're failing to understand those who are full-time and haven't changed their name & gender yet.

...But when you say that these people, many of whom are underprivileged, aren't full-time or in RLE because they have't changed their name & gender, you are failing to empathize with them and see their viewpoint. You're saying that because of whatever circumstance prevented them from changing name & gender, they are not full-time and RLE and their experience is not.

I also think a huge problem among TSes - ... we somehow need to prepare you for the hardship we're going to endure in the real world.

It is really sick that we trans people act as cruel as cis people. ...

All viewpoints are not valid, nor are they of equal worth. Experiences can't really be said to be valid per se. They simply are. The value of a viewpoint and the applicability of one person's experience to another both depend on a large number of factors. Merely recounting an experience and stating viewpoint is usually of little help. The only way to get at even applicability alone (forget credibility) is to DIG. Of course, not every likes to do that or is a critical thinker, but that's a different issue.

The charge of lacking empathy seems to arise more out of your frustration than the dynamics here. While accepting that dynamics between specific individuals varies, I find the most frequent targets of complaints here to be quite empathetic. Make of it what you will, but I think it's interesting in itself.

Questioning someone's thinking for not changing name or gender markers is very different from saying they are not full-time. I've read a LOT of the former, very little that smacks of the latter. Cites, please. As I recall, and I'm not going to go back and re-read multiple threads and responses, the questioning of transition/full-time status itself, as it relates to name/gender change, was not the status of a legal change, but the desire to remain male in some contexts. I understand that that is always positioned as need and not desire, but that in itself conflicts with a basic principle of transition. I have delayed my transition for certain reasons. My life, my decision. I'm not asking for anyone's view or permission. But I don't say that I'm (for example) doing RLE and am full-time but cross-dressing as a man every day either. Getting back to viewpoints, not ony are all viewpoints not valid, but some are mutually exclusive. That's especially true with the concept of RLE, which will have a specific meaning to the providers a person intends to use.

The underprivileged (and perhaps you are exaggerating with this term, BTW?) are another issue. But even here perspectives differ. As I've said before, someone might not be able to get hormones, FFS, SRS, hair, clothes - any of it, despite desire and need. I DO feel for these, but I also think they will compromise transition to a greater or lesser degree.

THANK GOD for the cautions and advice, often quite direct from those who have transitioned before me. I haven't experienced a single issue on which I hadn't had warning and advice in advance. That still begs the question of tone. The directness was necessary for me in order to break through the ingrained pattern of minimizing and deflecting. And also, indulging in fantasy scenarios. A lot of us have entertained the latter. I don't mean the fantasy of being transsexual, but of completely unrealistic solutions. SUCH AS part-time being a solution for those who really need to transition, hiding in some contexts, delays "until" that never resolve, being out to everyone except the hardest cases (typically family. Really? Think about that one.), etc. Some call them excuses. I think they are just a continuance of coping mechanisms that have kept identity buried and kept the illusion of control - hence crippling transition if continued. You don't break through and get past your old life, you effectively never transition. It's about that simple. (And f'in hard to do.)

[Brooke Smith]

My own experience was that I did not identify as a woman when I started .

That's very interesting. I had been led to believe if you could not state with absolute certainty,"I am a woman",then you were not transexual.

If you were not transexual,there were better choices to be made then to transition.

I hope I have this right.

[kimdl93]

Language is inherently murky and words often derive a large portion of their meaning from a larger context. Within the limited venue provided by this forum, we rarely,if ever, see the full context of individual lives. So, when one defines herself as transsexual or transgendered, the meaning is blurry...we can't know the full story of their lives. So it would seem with the term 'transitioner' as well. If we agree to the notion that someone is a transitioner only if they are 24/7, then are we excluding people who are taking meaningful steps...meaningful to them....along the path towards full transition?

To me transition is a process and not every transition follows the same sequence, includes the same steps, nor ends at exactly the same place. Isha certainly is making a 'transition', and I'm not sure even she would claim to know where and how her transition will be completed. Maybe some would think her not at all transitioner, based on a narrower perspective.

Anyway, perhaps one could differentiate between the transitioner and the transitioned, with the latter having reached a 24/7 existence.

[LeaP]

Either word is acceptable, Kim, just as we might use the word "traveler" for a person who likes to travel, despite not traveling at the moment. There are a lot of words with both noun and verb forms and usages. Interestingly, it doesn't cause semantic confusion elsewhere. One reason I like "transitioner" is because it is NOT the common usage in the community for someone in the pre full-time stages. We tend to use "in transition."

[kimdl93]

That's where I would find some room for confusion. If a transitioner as used in the community excludes those other than full time, then the term excludes those somewhere in process. Fine, I'll accept the community's conventions. But, isn't that a bit like excluding those who are en route from the definition of travelers?

[arbon]

And the root of that is a lack of empathy. The lack of the ability to truly place yourself in another person's shoes and feel their position.

People hate us because too many transwomen are as cruel as the cis population can be. I'll say it bluntly. Right now I really am disgusted with all of humanity - with 99% of cis people and 99% of transwomen. We're no better than cis people.

Many of us here have put ourselves out there in big ways to help others through this. Usually in ways that are not seen on these public boards. I think most of us are very empathic or else we would not do that, or even still be here at all.

Most or all of your accusations and arguments are baseless.

[Rianna Humble]

I had been led to believe if you could not state with absolute certainty,"I am a woman",then you were not transexual.

Not quite. For example that leaves out the Female to Male transsexuals. Where you may be getting confused is that if you can say with absolute certainty "I am not a woman" then you are not a Male to Female transsexual.

A large number of transitioners will have started with the certainty of who they are, but others will have started either not being sure or else knowing better who they are not than who they are.


If you were not transexual,there were better choices to be made then to transition.

Absolutely! Transition is a disaster if you are not transsexual. It is the wrong answer to the wrong question.

[LeaP]

... But, isn't that a bit like excluding those who are en route from the definition of travelers?

Sure, you can call anyone who is enroute from anywhere to anywhere a traveler. If you want, you can even call (probably jokingly) a crawling baby going from one room to the next for the first time a traveler. "My little traveler! Isn't she adorable!"

If you view this from the standpoint of a type of person – something that characterizes that person generally and permanently – it assumes a different aspect. You could call a person who went to the Poconos once but otherwise stays home a traveler. But if you were trying to convey something essential and important about that person's character, activity patterns, interests, etc., it wouldn't be very useful to do so.

Terms that lack this essentialism aren't helpful here. Consider people like me who are doing "transition stuff." Guess what – a lot of people doing the things I am doing don't actually end up transitioning. Some intend to, some do not. That's fine, but it doesn't address the credibility issue that has been flying around here. We need some term that conveys the essential element. Personally, I would have been fine with "full-time." It still amazes me that anyone – and I do mean anyone – could interpret that as having a part-time aspect. Yet over and over we get a version that reduces to "full-time, except [insert context here]."

[Thea Pauline]

I have been involved in science my entire life and in sociological and psychological research projects regarding trans* identities over the past couple of years, which has led to an absolute reliance on formal definitions of terms in order to accurately describe lived experience and interactions to researchers. The concept of transition is applicable to so many aspects of human existence, to carve out our own special definition of it and ensure accurate usage with any newcomer or changing situation is unrealistic.

For me, and I say this fully expecting you, the reader, to interpret this to mean only what I say; my transition will be complete when I say it is.

I do not subscribe to society's need for a gender binary, but I do fit within it. I have specific, defined and personal goals which when achieved, will confirm to me that I have transitioned to my satisfaction.

Personally, I largely agree with the definitions in effect when I acknowledged myself. I really don't care, as any person can have so many labels they become pointless, but I no longer consider myself transgender per se, because I live as the gender I am. I do however consider myself transexual, because I have not, as of yet, changed physical sex. And to sum up, forever more, I will be transexual/transgender (trans*) in society's view, but in my view? Woman. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

[Marcelle]

. . . As I read these various posts. It occurs to me that the biggest differentiator is work. Coming out at work is what separates us and our experience. The experience is different. Many of those on the part time fence say we are belittling or elitest. It is neither. Our experience is different. The daily challenges are different. We all have different levels of intensity. The means by which we find a place of balance to mitigate the GD to give us the best quality of life. But at the end of day what we have in common is we live our lives 24/7. Or they are actively pursuing that goal.

So this is where I get confused by all this. I am not in the process of transitioning in the sense that most here are transitioning. However, there are days I identify as a woman, wish to be seen as a woman and work/live as a woman. However there are days I still identify as a man, wish to be seen as a man and work/live as a man.

Cheers

Isha

[stefan37]

In some ways you are transitioning. Let's put that idea aside. You are exploring and finding your balance. Hopefully that's as far as you need to go. You're quest to live authentically can be in many ways harder than full transition. It's confusing to those you are close to and those you work with. If it's working for you that's all one can hope for. It may be enough or it may not be enough. GD is a condition where things can be OK until they are not. My comments were directed mainly to those that say they are full time except for .... Insert whatever.

You are also presenting at work how you identify any particular day. You are doing it from a position of rank and authority. There are repercussions from non compliance if subordinates would would not receive in ornate business. Canada is a bit more progressive than the US. Not sure what effect that may have. Even though it's confusing to you. You are experiencing an intensity of your GD where not expressing who you are can be debilitating in your daily life. Especially at work. It hasn't reached the level of intensity where you need to start burnings, change your name or gender. It's a tough place to be. If you can make it work for you. And for now it appears you are.

[Badtranny]

It is soooo interesting that Isha and LeaP seem to have a profound grasp of what the evil TS girls are always yapping about.

They have different goals, as stated but they are consistently on the side of authenticity.

Isha is a known nutcase because she has done the hardest part, which is come out at work, but apparently she liked that experience so much she wants to do it over and over. ;-)
Is she transitioning? I don't know but she certainly isn't abiding any secrets. She is right out there living her life however she feels it. No closet. To my mind that makes her every bit as legit as any transitioner.

LeaP on the other hand, is in the process of a transition which she is frantically trying to manage. I don't know if she's in the middle, or where her comfort zone is right now, but she is certainly able to convey my position on this issue pretty damn well. Again the reason why she 'gets it' is because she understands that transition absolutely requires complete observance. She is owning her situation and honestly dealing with it the best she can. Like Isha, everything she writes has the unmistakable ring of truth. Of authenticity. She in fact is proof that there is plenty of room for people that are in various stages of transition in the TS forum. All I know about Lea is what she has written in the public forum. They only thing she could do to ring the BS meter is to make comments about roads she has not yet traveled. If she does, those of us who have been there will notice that her accent isn't quite right.

Wherever you are on this journey, why not just be honest and upfront about it? Why try to claim steps not trodden? You are who you are, just be proud and be you.

[stefan37]

I'm thinking a lot of it is both validation and a sense of being included. It's just so cool to be transsexual. Maybe we should just encourage to jump right in. The waters fine.

[ShayLeigh Dominique]

Isha and Lea, for their authenticity, are role models to me. I have personally tried to have that kind of honesty and integrity, and hope that someone will (politely) call me out if I start spouting BS.

As to the original point... I'm still way too early in my process (which may or may not include full transition at some point) to be able to call what I'm doing "transition" given the definition provided here. I am going through a process of change... this much is certain. Is it destructive? Integrative? Only time will tell.

[Beth-Lock]

As to the original point... I'm still way too early in my process (which may or may not include full transition at some point) to be able to call what I'm doing "transition" .... I am going through a process of change... Only time will tell.

I began to transition before I knew I was transitioning. Others noted that I had adopted female characteristics or gender markers, (like subtle shades of lipstick or mostly clear nail polish), and pointed them out, usually telling me not to. Luckily some key people here, intervening behind the scenes started to run interference for me, talking to others and telling them to behave in regards to me. It was some time until I actually started living full time, I don't know how many months.

[ShayLeigh Dominique]

Beth-Lock, thank you. I feel less strange and alone for that.

I don't know what the future holds at this point. I'm diving into the deep end, for once trusting my intuition to guide me through. It may be a mistake, but I am a big girl (boy?) and I can accept the consequences of my actions and choices, not all of which will be expected or positive. Where will I end up? I don't know, but am filled with hopeful curiosity what that destination will look like and I plan to enjoy the journey there. Who will I be? Hopefully a new, improved, whole me; if not free from worry, at least honestly confident and faithful.

I am glad for I have what support I have in my workplace... those who I have not "clued-in" suspect something is going on with me, but don't care what it is because it doesn't change who I am to them. I am their administrative superstar, everything else is irrelevant. For that reason alone they would support me, it doesn't hurt that I am loveable (if quirky) to boot.

So, am I transitioning? Depends on how you define it

[mechamoose]

Anyway, My observation is that when it comes to TS and CD, or whether to be or not to be.... CDers tend to like to add female things to cover up the male, but not to get rid of it, and only for a period of time. Fantasy or whatever it is considered. But it is an act of accumulating, and covering up. When it comes to TS, I have noticed that there is usually the most joy or relief gained not by adding or covering up, but of ridding male markers as much as adding female ones, possibly even more. I would think that because a TS person is already female internally, so it is more of a need to shed the male to uncover the female and let her live freely. TS people don't have as much of a need to add feminine as they already are, and covering up is only a temporary fix until the male is shed altogether.

CD posts- Went shopping, got my nails done, wore a skirt and the wind blew woohoo. Here, it's I'm on blockers, got laser hair removal, laryngeal shave, FFS, and of course, SRS. All acts of removing of male markers to uncover what is felt underneath. So, that is my observation from my perspective.

So, is it about shedding an unwanted image, or assuming a desired one? It may seem like a trivial difference, but it really isn't. One is an act of destruction, one is an act of discovery.

I'm never going to get my hackles up an anyone here over this. We all walk our own paths. I don't care (as I have said before) if you are Earnest Borgnine in a dress. Nobody should be making you feel bad for how you feel about how you fit in the world. You have every right to be out there as much as anyone else does.

Last year, I went to my first CD/TS event. I went in a wonderful dress, high heels, jewelry and pretty makeup along with a trimmed beard and no forms. When I walked into the event hall I saw a number of people do the 'whisper-whisper' thing to their mates. This isn't a High-School popularity contest. If we have the nerve to step out there and represent our segment of culture, then they/we deserve support. There is no litmus test.

- MM

[LeaP]

It is soooo interesting that Isha and LeaP seem to have a profound grasp of what the evil TS girls are always yapping about.

LeaP on the other hand, is in the process of a transition which she is frantically trying to manage. I don't know if she's in the middle, or where her comfort zone is right now, but she is certainly able to convey my position on this issue pretty damn well. Again the reason why she 'gets it' is because she understands that transition absolutely requires complete observance. She is owning her situation and honestly dealing with it the best she can. Like Isha, everything she writes has the unmistakable ring of truth. Of authenticity. She in fact is proof that there is plenty of room for people that are in various stages of transition in the TS forum. All I know about Lea is what she has written in the public forum. They only thing she could do to ring the BS meter is to make comments about roads she has not yet traveled. If she does, those of us who have been there will notice that her accent isn't quite right.


That's because I am one of those evil TS girls…

First, thank you. And ShayLeigh, I'm no role model. I try not to stray too far from my own experience. Why some do when others do not, I'm not sure. In my case – and I'm speculating – it might be because I had such a strong sense of losing myself and my marbles at the beginning of all this. Very little of what I thought of myself, my motives, my coping mechanisms and behaviors, and all the rest has survived intact. It is often said transition is a process. It is for everyone in the physical tasks that must be undertaken. For me it has also been a long process of psychological and emotional change.

Where am I? Getting close to pulling the pin in that charming little device in my hand. (See avatar.) I am out to most of the people who matter at work, right up to the board level. My wife knows the transition is imminent. I have had FFS and hair consults over the last couple of weeks. I informed my daughter two days ago (another story in itself… All good). And the rest of the children are coming shortly. My wife and I are doing the very best we can to work through things together.

[stefan37]

Hormones aside. They helped me mentally. Not so much physically. I didn't go full-time until A. Substantial facial hair removal. B. Legal name change and gender marker. The latter was absolutely the biggest event of my transition. It was validation to me and those around I was serious about transitioning. FFS had to wait another 18 months. Living full-time with male facial features was a valuable experience for me. I don't particularly recommend it. FFS introduced an entirely new level of comfort.

To answer Jorja's question. There are a couple factors I can identify. The physical procedures are a huge distraction to me. I'm scheduled for SRS. In Nov. I am about 10 grand short of funds. I still don't have preop clearances.

Living life as a tranny while challenging is easy. Integrating and being accepted as a woman much more challenging. My first year I looked like a male facially. It was hit or miss how I was gendered. It wasn't as bothersome to be gendered male. Even while wearing dresses and heels. Second year had facial reconstruction. Being gendered male was non existent for the must part. Casual encounters are one thing. The issue I have is being accepted as female. Yeah those I interact with are respectful, use the correct pronoun for the most part. But I'm treated differently by both men and women. It's like I'm an outsider. Once they figure you're Trans it changes the dynamic. I'm sure given 5 years down the road things will smooth out. I obviously still exude male clues that I will need to identify and correct. My ex has been pointing them out as they occur. Work can be problematic. I run my own Electrical/ Mechanical company. Voice in the office and field is a challenge. Especially when I get irritated.(I have a guy Mike working for me that is friends with Tom another Electrical Contractor I'm friends with. Tom and I were talking and he said that Mike told him that he inadvertently brought Steve back to the office. I thought it was pretty funny. But it illustrates the challenge. I've had a friend tell me I don't work like a girl. Well I don't know how to work like a girl. If something needs doing. I do it. I guess the way I carry myself and my hand coordination show 40+ years of experience.

[ReineD]

Nigella, I know that you and others who post here regularly know what I'm about to say but bear with me. I'm offering detail for the benefit of others who read this thread.

In discussion forums, words are the only thing we have to convey our ideas. So I find it helpful to examine the literal meanings.

Transsexual: Crossing (trans) from one sex to another. Sex is physical, therefore it involves physical modifications in order to appear as a woman (for MtFs): beard removal, hormones, and if they are not sufficient, BAs, FFS, and optionally SRS (we'll leave the debate about this for another thread). I've taken it that MtF TSs have always been women and it is a matter of changing the male sexual characteristics to match one's sense of gender identity to the degree that medical science will allow.

Transgender: Crossing from one gender to another. The use of this term by transsexuals has always baffled me, since I take it that TSs do not change their gender. They change their sex to match their gender.

Transitioner: For MtFs, the act of transitioning from male to female: physically, socially, legally. For the physical transition, not everyone needs or can get all the surgeries, people come in all shapes, sizes with varying physiognomies. But if the result at the end of the transition period is the appearance of a woman such that people stop seeing a man when looking at a TS, this is a complete physical transition. Full social transition has occurred when everyone in a TSs life knows her as a woman, they do not assume she is a man based on her presentation if they do not know that she is TS. If a TS does not tell some people she is transitioning during the period when the body is undergoing changes, then a full social transition has not occurred. And legal transition is self-explanatory.

A transition is a process with a beginning and an end. If at the end of a transition, barring personal prejudice, everyone (family, friends, coworkers, government agencies) takes the MtF TS to be a woman, then she is no longer a transitioner; she is a woman. If the end point is partial transition (HRT while still maintaining the ability to portray the self as a man on occasion which also implies a partial social transition), then we can't say that the process results in a transition from male to female, no matter what is the sense of internal gender ID.


Discussion:

I've observed in some of the threads here that partial-transitioners want to be recognized as the full-fledged women they feel they are by other members of the community. It makes sense they would want this, since they do need validation and they are depriving themselves of full recognition from the people in their lives by not fully transitioning physically, socially and legally. I think that everyone, full and partial transitioners, will agree that full and partial transition are not the same. I also think that everyone will agree that full and partial transition are both difficult. I hope that most people will not want to say that full transition is more difficult than partial transition, since the degree of difficulty depends on too many variables to list.

Contention occurs, I believe, when it comes to assigning or defining a partial-transitioner's gender identity. Some people feel that partial-transitioners (the people whose end point it is to partially transition) are not the women they feel they are because they have chosen to not fully transition. While other people are happy to accept a person's stated gender ID no matter the appearance, presentation and legal markers.

So the question as to whether gender is defined by how one feels vs. what one chooses to do about it is fourfold:

1. Does the degree of transition indicate a person's internal sense of gender identity? The partial-transitioner will say no because she feels she is female no matter what she does physically, socially, or legally.

2. Among people in the know, namely the members of this community, does the degree (the end point, not a point in the middle of the process) of transition indicate someone's internal sense of gender identity? I fear there will continue to be debates about this.

3. Among people not in the know, namely the people in the partial-transitioner's life who do not know that she does not identify as a man, does partial transition indicate her gender identity? Yes. The unknowing people will continue to think of the partial-transitioner as a male because obviously they have no indication that she is transitioning.

4. Among the selected few who do see the partial-transitioner present as a female and again barring personal prejudice,
A) Strangers will likely take it that she is transitoning. Acquaintances and people on the street do not know the differences among community members and they generally do not stop to analyze this in great detail.
B) Some of her friends and family will take it she is a woman or they will respect her stated gender identity,
C) While other friends and family will persist is seeing her as a man because they know that she has not fully transitioned.

[Tina_gm]

To MM- I would say it is not so much destruction, more like molting, shedding... peeling away old layers that are no longer useful or suitable for what is underneath. CDing is an act of discovery of sorts. In many cases, mine at least, it is sharing my own gender norm with myself.

To ReineD- I have often had a discussion with my wife about our blended family, and that both of us have helped each other because we have a more complete view of each other in regards to each others kids. For each other, we are on the outside looking in, without an emotional connection to the past, but yet an emotional connection to the present and with a strong desire to make life better for all. It presents a clearer picture when viewed this way. You seem to have this view of the entire transgender spectrum. You truly have missed your calling by not being a transgender counselor, but I suppose your efforts here likely make up for that.

We all want validation for who we are as people. A partial transitioner, or any MTF that does not go through all or any transition yet still has some internal identity that is female, or feminine even is not any less female or feminine when they or how they identify and or present. It is real for them, for whatever percentage of time they feel it. It is real for them even if they still feel a connection to male or masculinity as well. They are still transitioners even if they partially transition, they still have a female identity with the whatever percentage is female. Because it is not a complete transition or identity does not make it any less real, or valid.

[Marcelle]

. . . I've observed in some of the threads here that partial-transitioners want to be recognized as the full-fledged women they feel they are by other members of the community. It makes sense they would want this, since they do need validation and they are depriving themselves of full recognition from the people in their lives by not fully transitioning physically, socially and legally . . .

1. Does the degree of transition indicate a person's internal sense of gender identity? The partial-transitioner will say no because she feels she is female no matter what she does physically, socially, or legally.

4. Among the selected few who do see the partial-transitioner present as a female and again barring personal prejudice,
A) Strangers will likely take it that she is transitoning. Acquaintances and people on the street do not know the differences among community members and they generally do not stop to analyze this in great detail.
B) Some of her friends and family will take it she is a woman or they will respect her stated gender identity,
C) While other friends and family will persist is seeing her as a man because they know that she has not fully transitioned.

Hi Reine,

While I don't consider myself a partial-transitioner or transitioner in the sense of how it is defined, I think I can speak to your point 1. Now bear in mind this is my understanding of myself and not an broad statement of how others feel as I cannot speak to anyone else's experience.

To be honest, I really don't know where I am in all of this so have settled on "gender fluid" until I work through everything. The one constant which I discuss often with my therapist is a sense of body dysmorphia. As I progressed through therapy discussion turned to HRT which I declined and still do to this day. I am happy with my body and to be honest when I identify as a woman I don't look in the mirror and wish to correct. It is my body and while it may be physiologically male, it is mine and does not define how I perceive myself as a man or a woman. Yes, it is far easier to align myself as a man with my current physiology than it is to align myself as a woman but right now there is no strong pull to align my physiology to match my gender identity or sex as a woman. This does not mean I do no suffer any body dysmorphia as I do have issue with body hair and facial hair which I am slowly having removed/reduced.

Nobody will ever mistake me physically or phenotypically for a woman and I am fine with that. Right now make-up is a necessary evil to hide beard shadow but believe me, once abated, make-up will be minimal unless the occasion calls for it. Clothing gives me a sense of gender alignment but it is not the beat all to end all. I can feel like a woman wearing a ratty t-shirt and shorts doing yard work as easy as I can feel like a woman wearing a skirt suit and heels at work. The clothes do not define me, it is my internal sense of self which defines me irrespective of how I am dressed, what I am doing or how I am presenting. When it comes right down to it the "kid ain't pretty and she is fooling nobody but she is fine with that because she knows who she is" :)

WRT you point 4 . . . well given my personal circumstances I think I can confirm those points as I live them each day I am presenting as a woman. Most strangers I assume (again I am not really sure) will think I am transitioning unless they have some insight to the whole spectrum gig in which case they may not make assumptions. Most of my friends and work colleagues who see me as both a man and a woman at work will always attempt to use the appropriate pronouns but may stumble now and then (no harm no foul in my book). Others (including one very close friend) will only ever use "male pronouns" because they are no comfortable thinking of me as a woman perhaps because they see that skirting both genders is a declaration that I am still a man at the core of my personality . . . or they just cannot make that leap.

Cheers

Isha

[emma5410]

A partial transitioner, or any MTF that does not go through all or any transition yet still has some internal identity that is female, or feminine even is not any less female or feminine when they or how they identify and or present. It is real for them, for whatever percentage of time they feel it. It is real for them even if they still feel a connection to male or masculinity as well. They are still transitioners even if they partially transition, they still have a female identity with the whatever percentage is female. Because it is not a complete transition or identity does not make it any less real, or valid.

So much for the term transitioner defining someone fully transitioning and living 24/7. Another term appropriated to mean anything anybody wants it to mean. How pointless it all is.

[sarahcsc]

The purpose of language is to facilitate communication and definitions are an integral part of that process.

We define the world around us and generally speaking, the simpler an object or concept, the less disagreement there is.

What I see here is a group of highly intellectual individuals discussing a concept that is not only complex but highly specific.

This tends to breed confusion and disagreements.

But most importantly, this creates duality.

There is nothing inherently wrong with duality because the universe exist by contrast. We need both object A and non-object A in order to recognize them both.

In the case of 'transitioning'/'transitioned'/transitioner', we need the both the concept and the non-concept in order to recognize both. But the moment we attempt to define what is, we are also inevitably defining what isn't.

The real problem is not just trying to get people to agree with the definition of "what is", but also the definition of "what isn't".

Some might feel validated with these definitions, but others won't. There is absolutely nothing that can be done about it.

But we hardly bog ourselves down with exhaustive definitions when conducting our daily affairs, why do we get to caught up with this? I mean... how red must red be to be considered red? How good must good be to be considered good? How human must a human be to be considered a human? Do we have to remind ourselves everyday that we are human?

I think most of us would agree that in 50 years time, for those of us who are still around, we would look back on today and laugh at how silly we were arguing about something so ephemeral as 'definitions'.

The forum is full of paradoxes where one could stress on 'definitions' one day but encourage 'authenticity' the next. The former requires some kind of consensus, while the latter emphasizes on individuality.

Confusing? You bet.

This debate will never end as long as somebody out there is yearning for public validation or avoiding public invalidation. Me included. So yeah... Go figure.

Love,
S

[emma5410]

What is the problem with having a term that means you are living full time, name change, 24/7 etc. It does not invalidate anybody's experience. It not elitist. It just aids understanding. It should not have to become a big emotional issue. Unfortunately every time this is done people become offended and appropriate it.

[becky77]

It's totally ridiculous and I don't understand why people need to keep redefining stuff?

A guy is in training to be a mountaineer, if someone came along and said "I just walked over a hill, I must also be a mountaineer"!

We would just laugh at the silliness of it, yet somehow on here that's what happens all the time.

We know what Transition is, a Transitioner is someone doing Transition.

Where does partial transition come in?

You either do it or you don't, if it's partial it isn't fulfilled, if it isn't fulfilled how can it be transition?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

exactly..


hey all, its in your heart...If its really important to you to call your weekend adventures,nightime dressing.. or your HRT regimen part time transition, go for it...we'll keep chatting about it..

but I feel for you.... that's your nature begging for validation that it won't get..
this is not an attack, its not a "differing opinion", its the way it actually is... and you are better off dealing with that rather than talking about words, labels studies or theories..

btw... ts women that transition for real don't always get validated either...one thing that makes our validation much harder is the tg umbrella and all the prevarication about tg/ts and transition...

[Kimberly Kael]

Transgender: Crossing from one gender to another. The use of this term by transsexuals has always baffled me, since I take it that TSs do not change their gender. They change their sex to match their gender.

It's generally accepted as an umbrella term that covers a range of lived experiences from transsexual to cross dressing to gender fluid and genderqueer folk. Anything that transgresses society's traditional expectations of assigned gender seems to fit under the umbrella term.

I happen to like it because it's inclusive and because it's more indicative of the fact that, when it comes to most people, my medical decisions are none of their business. What matters to them is how I interact with people socially. My gender hasn't changed from my perspective but it certainly has from an external viewpoint! Even from my own perspective, how people gender me has changed.

As for the discussion? I believe in self-determination when it comes to gender. If we can dictate to someone what their gender identity is based on their lived experience, then society at large can do the same to all of us. That's not a tradition that has worked out well, historically speaking, for transgender folk. Live and let live.

[Tina_gm]

Becky, what if the guy who walks over a little 200 ft. hill has severe physical limitations from birth. Inside, he dreams of scaling mt. Everest at 20 thousand or whatever ft. it is, but the reality of his physical condition is that it took him just as much effort training and devotion to scale a little hill. Not little to him, and the accomplishment is no less for him. In his head, he is a mountaineer, and he would have scaled mt. Everest had he not been physically limited. Why can we not consider him to be a mountaineer?

I am seeing quite a paradox here. On the one hand, those here who are identifying themselves as TS, or just women who are in the process of physically transitioning to be genetic women want and need full validation to be the gender they feel internally. Most who identify this way feel they were born with a disability- being in the wrong body. Not everyone will or can make the change physically. Maybe they have just had a horrible run with finances, or maybe their physical body is not strong enough to endure it. Does this make them any less female internally?

I really do not see what the problem is with the term transitioner whether they are partially or fully. They still are. partially or fully is descriptive of how they are, or to what level.

[emma5410]

Becky, what if the guy who walks over a little 200 ft. hill has severe physical limitations from birth. Inside, he dreams of scaling mt. Everest at 20 thousand or whatever ft. it is, but the reality of his physical condition is that it took him just as much effort training and devotion to scale a little hill. Not little to him, and the accomplishment is no less for him. In his head, he is a mountaineer, and he would have scaled mt. Everest had he not been physically limited. Why can we not consider him to be a mountaineer?


This is beyond ridiculous. Do you really think he would call himself a mountaineer and do you think anyone else would.

You are using the same method so many part timers do when challenged. You use an example of someone who cannot do it to support those who choose not to for whatever reason

[Badtranny]

I've been a fan of ReineD for a loooong time so I'm thrilled to see her weigh in, BUT (as you can see it's a big but) I have one tiny little exception to her excellent post.

RD, you're making a distinction between part-timers and full-timers that I don't think anyone else has made. It goes to motive, and I am personally not or never have questioned somebody's motives for transition. I'm on record as supporting TranSitioners even if they're doing it 'for the panties'. Now, granted I'm also on record as saying 'bless their hearts' if that is the case.

No the only distinction those who have transitioned are trying to make is between part-time and full-time. I fully understand that someone may feel exactly like me and yet not transition for reasons that are entirely up to them. The fact is that I am not one of those people that NEEDED to do it. I WANTED to do it. So I did it. If you'll remember, I used to catch some guff from some of the old guard because I was openly rejecting the old narrative. I've been called 'not real' and everything else so I don't think I have any stake in the 'real TS' argument. (no true TS, for the Fallacy geeks)

All I've ever wanted here is a culture of authenticity. This issue doesn't exist IRL (In Real Life) because it's self selecting. If you're FTEFW (Full Time Except For Work) then it will be obvious to me and anyone else. My tribe are all fully transitioned gals who don't have secret lives. I am not passing judgement on those who are closeted, I'm merely making a distinction. They are different. They may have excellent reasons for being different, but they have chosen to NOT be a part of our tribe, to not share our struggle, to not join us on the front lines in the push for acceptance. Most are too closeted to even hang out in public with us. I am four square in support of NOT transitioing, because it is a hell of a thing, but I am also here to support and advocate for those that decide to pull the pin and blow themselves into the daylight.

The part-timers don't have anything of value to add to a group of transitioners. There is nothing that the FTEFW crowd has experienced that we haven't also experienced. Transition is not about dressing up in secret. It is about living your whole life out loud and changing your legal presence. The TranSitioners have valuable experience with name changes, and coming out at work, and healthcare, and surgeries, and post transition marriages and dating, etc etc. Those looking for answers about real transitions can get hard earned information from people who have actually got skin in the game. For whatever reason, the TS gals have put it all on the line. We've committed and we've all learned hard lessons. Yes not everybody has the ability to come out and live the life that they want to live, but that doesn't change anything. I don't have the ability to be a model, but I feel really pretty so why don't they accept me?

Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?

[stefan37]

I've obviously been doing it all wrong. I should have just put on makeup and gone out into the world and expected to be accepted as female. Oops it doesn't work that way.

[Tina_gm]

emma, there is no "method" I am using whatsoever to validate anyone. I am merely showing what I see as the paradox of TS women who are self identifying as women, even though physically/genetically they are not women. Life circumstances be damned right.... what if along the way of discovering they are women internally, but had a wife and kids.... and some horrific tragedy happened to a member of their family, and took all their resources, finances, time, everything dealing with it. So, for a purpose greater than their own, they opt not to transition. Something of greater importance than their being physically female for them, but internally they are still female.


TS women want validation for being women even though they may not be able to make a full transition. Or life circumstances are just so overwhelming for them that they cannot make a full transition in good conscience . How is this really so different? Oddly, for those in here who are saying anything short of full time or going as far as possible despite any circumstance = not being a woman. Isn't that sort of the same type of mentality used by so many in the vanilla world, once a man, born a man, always a man no matter what they do?


btw... ts women that transition for real don't always get validated either...one thing that makes our validation much harder is the tg umbrella and all the prevarication about tg/ts and transition...
Wow, so the very thing that is opening doors and making transition not as difficult, and overall general acceptance is also the thing that is causing more difficulty with validation? I see quite the paradox with this....

[stefan37]

Fine they identify as woman and TS. The difference is their life experience is living as a male. They would have little to no value giving their life experience to those that are needing to live as a female 24/7. Same with FTEW. They live part of their life as female and part as male. Again limited experience for those needing to fully transition and live 24/7.
That is the issue. It's not that hard. Ok you identify as female. Self identify as TS. Live as a male. I'm finding my second year full-time as more challenging than my first. This with 3 years HRT. 10 months post facial reconstruction. And 2 years full-time. Legal name & gender change. Out to all. Socially and professionally.

Regarding your comment to Kaitlyn's quote. We transition to live our lives as female. That would also include having that identity reflected back. Those that may not have the funds for surgeries or are genetically challenged may not be validated. The problem with the TG label is we are not regarded as woman. But gender fluid individuals.

[arbon]

TS women want validation for being women even though they may not be able to make a full transition. Or life circumstances are just so overwhelming for them that they cannot make a full transition in good conscious. How is this really so different? Oddly, for those in here who are saying anything short of full time or going as far as possible despite any circumstance = not being a woman. Isn't that sort of the same type of mentality used by so many in the vanilla world, once a man, born a man, always a man no matter what they do?

Thats not what it is about though. There are people here who have not transitioned are not full time but still accepted as women by us here. At least speaking for myself anyway. But in the world outside are still encased by the male identity until they get further along. Like one person here I have skyped with and even though she was dressed in mens cloths and all I still only thought of her as "her". Some in the real world too who I know are going to get their lives right. We will accept and do accept what is on the inside - thats why they are driven to transition, that is why we try to help them along. But not everyone is really "her" on the inside either - I have met some form this forum who most definitely were not "hers" - one was downright creepy that I picked up in another town to take them to a support group in yet another town - 6 hours in my car with him and it really was just a bit of fantasy for him.

But even though they may really be women on the inside they are still working out how to be her to the rest of the world.

[Tina_gm]

I've obviously been doing it all wrong. I should have just put on makeup and gone out into the world and expected to be accepted as female. Oops it doesn't work that way.
Why not? Isn't the recent transgender movement all about acceptance? For someone who wishes accepted as they present? Go out in the world presenting as a woman and be accepted as one?

This is bold, but I think this is what is got some feathers ruffled here. Many here who are or have transitioned have gone through every hell imaginable. Like the suffragette movement to where now women go vote without giving it a second thought. For many in here it seems, you aren't real until you pull the pin, and unleash the transtutonium bomb and wipe out all existing life you had and cause a mad swath of destruction and hardship on yourself and all those around you. Only then are you to be considered real. Times are changing, and while that has been the case, it soon won't be. Someday, not all that long from now, someone will be able to go out in the world, present as they wish, and be accepted as such, and we will have you here who went through hell, to thank for it.

[Kimberly Kael]

The part-timers don't have anything of value to add to a group of transitioners.

I understand what you're getting at, but the literal phrasing seems unnecessarily dismissive. The lived experience of someone presenting as female, even part time, in another part of the world may well be of interest. Or someone in another line of work where there are unique challenges to consider when contemplating transition. Any number of life experiences aren't necessarily universal.


Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?

This is the part that strikes me as completely reasonable. Reading the forum description it would seem that yesterday's thread derailment by part-timers was explicitly against the intent of the forum. I'm in complete agreement that some authenticity is a reasonable expectation, as is respect for the fact that this forum is about our lives, not our hobby. If I want to hear about a night on the town, or getting pulled over with mismatched identification, or any number of other experiences then I don't have to look far to find those threads on the site. I do want a place I can interact with my peers. That seems like a legitimate request.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Wow, so the very thing that is opening doors and making transition not as difficult, and overall general acceptance is also the thing that is causing more difficulty with validation? I see quite the paradox with this....

I should be clear about a couple things that came up in other posts after mine

i'm talking about validation that you have transitioned and live as a woman... i'm talking about the incoming external validation that syncs with the totally internal validation that makes for the most successful transitioned life..

as to Melissa's comment, I can see how it comes off but here is what I hear..

the PERMANENCE of transition is a key to making it what it is.... without permanence there is no transition....that commitment to your nature is what it is all about...my own experience is that transition was nothing like what I thought and I only found out because it became permanent...

the idea of part time transition means absolutely nothing... why can't we just say the person is considering transition? is presenting (as opposed to living) as a woman when possible to see how comfortable they are?

folks that don't live this cannot relate to this... why is it difficult to accept that I experienced transition and others have not??
why can people not take my word for it when I've done it and they haven't?? it does not invalidate their experience, it invalidates MINE

and then this..

ts people that don't transition ARE women...regardless of HRT, penis, etc......a ts woman is and was always a woman...
how many more times are we going to get "accused" of saying otherwise???

and then this..
Ts people that don't transition have not transitioned... seems like "duh!!!" but literally that's what we are getting caught up in..

in my own mind, I feel we all end up reverting to their nature... attempts to fight will get harder and harder...the older you get, the worse it gets...anybody have the opposite experience?? it gets easier??

and if the fight does not get hard, sorry but I have a hard time believing you are a woman...if dressing at night or a touch of HRT works for you, in that case I believe you are gender fluid and finding your own nature... it has NOTHING to do with transition in this case...and given how hard I fought to be me, I don't see why they wouldn't fight just as hard to be them...why even bring transsexuals into it at all??

the worst thing is I truly feel for people struggling with gender dysphoria... the answer is live your nature....fully and permanently... otherwise suffer...and suffer worse and worse over time

[ReineD]

Where does partial transition come in?

Transition is change, and there are people who modify their bodies through HRT. There has been a transition of sorts, in the literal sense of the word, from fully male to no longer fully male even if they don't have BA, FFS ... and we won't get into whether SRS is required to consider someone fully transitioned since opinions vary widely on the subject. Likely HRT will not be enough for most people to appear as a female, but it has been for a few people, even those who live full time, right?

Also, since full transition is a three part process (physical, full-social, legal), anything short of this then must be considered partial? If you don't like to use the term "partial transition" to define the changes to the body and to part of a person's social/family and/or work life, then what term might be more appropriate, since there has been a physical and a social change.



RD, you're making a distinction between part-timers and full-timers that I don't think anyone else has made.

I know. When I first became involved here years ago, it seemed the question was more black and white than it is now. There didn't seem to be so many people who wanted to be considered a woman in some circles but not others and I don't know whether this trend will continue and increase.

So I opened this discussion to new ideas, keeping in mind this is only discussion and not final proclamations. lol.

My opinion: I think that a full transition results in having changed from male to female (for MtF). A person who has fully transitioned obviously is considered a woman in every sense of the word, save for chromosomes and biological functions but these things are unseen. But a partial transition does not change a person, in the eyes of the world, from a male to a female. They are changed, in the eyes of the world, from fully male to somewhere in between male and female, even if the way they are seen (somewhere in the middle) is at odds with who they feel they are internally (fully female). But that's what happens when people don't make commitments to full transition.

Edit - in the past before there was HRT and the possibility of surgeries, among native Americans for example, what were the Two-Spirits considered - male, female, or a combination of both, even if they did appear as women to the maximum level possible at that time? And were there Two-Spirits who hunted with the other males and who wore male hunting gear when doing so, but who dressed as women at camp? If so, would they have been considered the same as the Two-Spirits who always wore female clothes? I don't know the answer, but I suspect that no Two-Spirits were considered male in the same sense as the other males in the tribe.

[Marcelle]

... the idea of part time transition means absolutely nothing... why can't we just say the person is considering transition? is presenting (as opposed to living) as a woman when possible to see how comfortable they are?

Makes perfect sense to me hence the reason why I would never claim to be transitioning or partial transitioning. I am still trying to figure things out by pushing boundaries to find my comfort zone and determine where I will land . . . consider me a work in progress. ;)

Cheers

Isha

[Kaitlyn Michele]

reine what you are hitting on is external vs internal.... and internal identity vs action and how that plays out
its very very difficult to talk about without crossing somebody's internal line..its not so hard to make distinctions related to action..



isha it will be interesting over time if you feel more or less validated... if people generally default to male or female for you...if your feelings about your gender shift

one thing i never understood about gender fluid is why is today vs tomorrow any different than morning vs afternoon??
can you wake up feeling female, get your mojo going and then by 130 start feeling male?? does gd kick in if that happens?? do other feelings kick in and you rush home to get all the womens clothes off before you burst into tears??

do you put energy and effort into presenting male at these times?

[becky77]

Transition is change, and there are people who modify their bodies through HRT. There has been a transition of sorts, in the literal sense of the word, from fully male to no longer fully male even if they don't have BA, FFS ... and we won't get into whether SRS is required to consider someone fully transitioned since opinions vary widely on the subject. Likely HRT will not be enough for most people to appear as a female, but it has been for a few people, even those who live full time, right?

Also, since full transition is a three part process (physical, full-social, legal), anything short of this then must be considered partial? If you don't like to use the term "partial transition" to define the changes to the body and to part of a person's social/family and/or work life, then what term might be more appropriate, since there has been a physical and a social change.


Hi Reine

Are you confusing the word Transition as it is in the dictionary, with Transition as it is known medically for trans people?

Transition is a known process, when I go to my gender clinic and we talk of transition it is with an understanding that we are using the same language, I don't go in there and decide on my own definition and everyone is confused?

Nearly all the people that argue what Transition means are not actually doing it, they are not going through stuff like RLE etc. We have had several threads about RLE and it turns out those who argue the meaning of RLE, have no intention of surgery and haven't looked into what it involved.
So what we have are people that don't know what they are talking about being very vocal.

Yes, Transition as a word means change, but it isn't just a word in the TS community, especially to TS people seeking medical help.

So to try not confuse people I will use an example.

If someone is going to be a Doctor, before they achieve their end goal we would say they are training to be a Doctor.
If they get to a point where they aren't able or don't want to continue, we don't say they are a partial Doctor, you either are a Doctor or your not.
Also if someone is training to be a Nurse, we don't say "Well they both do medical studies, we will call the nurse a partial Doctor".

[Rianna Humble]

Reine, further to Becky's excellent comments, the dictionary definition of transition talks of changing from one state or condition to another, it is not the midway point.

Moreover in Transsexual terms Transition has a defined start point and a defined end point (either Male to Female or Female to Male). It does not encompass a "transition" from Male to Male with a little bit of female or from Female to Female with a little bit of male.

What precise procedures are necessary to accomplish that transition has no bearing whatever on the start and end points.

The problem that we see increasingly is that those who come here looking for guidance on what transition may mean for their lives are being counseled by people who have no intention of transitioning from Male to Female (or from Female to Male) but who accuse us of elitism when we explain the difference.

[ReineD]

Becky and Rianna, I know that a medical transition involves changes to the male birth body and living as a female full time. But still some people consider that SRS is necessary for it to be considered transition, while others consider that SRS is not necessary, so even then I'm not sure if there is an agreement among TSs of how a medical (physical) transition is defined exactly. I think in this forum, because we have members who have been living as female for years and who have not had SRS, it is generally accepted they have transitioned even without SRS provided they live full time as women.

That aside, what I'm saying is, how do we define a different segment of people and what they do, who are no longer male in the sense that people understand males to be, if they are reducing their testosterone and are increasing their estrogen levels to the point where their male sexual functioning is impacted, their skin softens, they experience fat distribution, and they begin to develop breasts, even if they only appear as women (with the help of major gender cues like clothing) outside of work. Are they male in the same way as other males who don't do this? They are not seen as women by the people to whom they present male and this is their cross to bear. But they are not seen as males in the purest sense either by the people who do see them presenting as women and who do know they are on HRT. So what are they. There has been a change from male to somewhere between male and female, so what do we call that change. I came up with a term "partial transition" but if there is a better term then what is it. Do we need some recognition that some people are making changes to their bodies and to the way that many (even if not all) people know them, even if it is not to the same degree as full timers, or do we continue to refer to them as males?

I'm just asking the question and bringing this forward for discussion.

Admittedly in the outside world among people who are not aware of the full spectrum, there is nothing other than male or female. There is no "in-between". I was wondering how the people in this section of the forum see it, which is what I think Nigella was asking as well. If people in this section of the forum are not willing to consider a state of physical characteristics and social presentation that is other than full-on and full time male or female (whether the person is cis or TS), then I'm afraid there will continue to be debates about the validity of the people who are, in fact, in between?

[Angela Campbell]

I wouldn't think "partial transition" works, more like incomplete transition.

Transition is a process that can take a long time. You can start and never complete it or you can complete it. If the end goal is to be partial it seems it shouldn't be considered the same thing.

[ReineD]

If the end goal is to be partial it seems it shouldn't be considered the same thing.

I agree, full transition is not the same as a not-full transition and they should not both be called just "transition", hence my attempt to differentiate between the two. :) But, they are indeed both processes that take, in the case of MtFs, a male body from one state to another (providing it is more than just clothes and there are indeed body modifications such as HRT or more) even if one desired end result is to present as female to everyone, and the other is to present as a female only to some people.

Separately from that is the way that people identify and this is where it gets sticky. Both the full-time transitioners and the people who go from male to in-between male and female (depending on what body parts have changed ... do they have breasts that can be hidden, do they continue to experience male sexual functioning to appease their marriage) all identify as women (except for Isha :)). So do we negate the changes that the non-full-time transitioners experience and continue to call them male? Do we call them something in between male and female, or do we acknowledge they feel they are female?

Again, these are just questions.

[Dana44]

Reading this, wow... It seems easy. first if you have done it, you are transsexual. If you have not done it and are transitioning, Then that is where you are and I'm sure there is plenty in the transition stage. Some may never get an operation to change fully into a woman. But any who lives full time as a female certainly is one. The most feminine women I ever met was TG she males. Now, In sex if they are so feminine, a man would call them fem girls. Been there and have done that. They treat men far better than women in sex typically. I'm sure there are quite a few really good women. But I have to agree with Renee that partially completed transitional that they are no longer male aka the reference to she-males. Now many women like this are true women even though they did not do the operation. I saw where a man went to Thailand and brought home a women that was preop. He has a site for other men to find them. Why, he says they all all women and have the sex drive of a boy. That is what he wanted. So, if a large group of people accept a Transvestite across this land. Any who went down the road to transition is certainly a male or female that wants to be the other sex and many get stuck in the middle. Or in any case partially complete.

[Marcelle]

. . . isha it will be interesting over time if you feel more or less validated... if people generally default to male or female for you...if your feelings about your gender shift

one thing i never understood about gender fluid is why is today vs tomorrow any different than morning vs afternoon??
can you wake up feeling female, get your mojo going and then by 130 start feeling male?? does gd kick in if that happens?? do other feelings kick in and you rush home to get all the womens clothes off before you burst into tears??

do you put energy and effort into presenting male at these times?

Hi Kaitlyn,

WRT to validation, it is an oddity right now. When I identify as a woman I will admit that people using proper gender pronouns feels good . . . indeed feels right. But I am a pragmatist as I know people see a male (one look at my avatar confirms that) so the validation if you can call it that is more likely people being kind. Hence the reason I don't get too upset when people stumble or address me as "he" vice "she" or "Sir" vice "Ma'am".

The gender fluid feeling . . . hmmm . . . good question and one I have to answer all the time and one I have spent quite a few therapy sessions trying to figure out. It is truly hard to explain as the GD I experience can be extreme to light . It is not transitory in the sense it rushes in at zero dark thirty then wanes around 4PM, sputters and fizzles out until the next week. It is more a build up until I cannot control the feeling at which point I find myself identifying as a woman.

By the GD being light I mean it is manageable in that to dress and present as a man in all aspects of life (work, socializing, and whatnot) is relatively easy to do. However, to answer your question, there is invested emotional effort to present male during these lull periods but it more a sense of "missing" and to some degree "waiting" for the next flip (sort to speak). Now when the GD is extreme I find myself emotionally drained and the thought of presenting as a man is difficult. Point in case, last Monday I was getting ready to go to work and when I went to put on my male street clothes (I never wear a uniform to and from work) I froze and had a panic attack . . . most likely the worst panic attack I have had since running down this gender fluid pathway . . . indeed given my age, I seriously thought I was having a heart attack. I could not bear the thought of going to work or living my day as a man because I did not feel like a man at that point. Now before anyone goes off on a "split personality" tangent I was fully cognizant of my personality at this time, no memory loss or black out periods so no dissociative identity disorder here. I just knew in my heart of hearts I was a woman and had to present as such. When I get like this there is no crossover in that I switch out to male for brief periods of time to deal with things, I am a woman in all aspects of my life and stay so until the next lull period. For example, I love to workout and do so at the end of the workday . . . this past week I did so as a woman which meant wearing women's workout gear and doing what I normally do as a guy in a gym full of mainly guys.

The above lasted the whole week and while I am currently presenting male and have been since Saturday, I can still feel "her" behind my eyes. Funny thing is when I am presenting as a woman, I do not feel "him" the same way. I am not sure if I have answered your question(s) well enough to understand but I can say when the GD is extreme to not act on it would be akin to not drinking water if I were dying of thirst. However on some days, I am only a little thirsty and can possibly go without water for longer periods of time, but I still need to drink.

Cheers

Isha

[Suzanne F]

Isha
Please stop commenting about my beautiful friend Isha's appearance! You are a beautiful person and nothing screams male when I see your avatar. Yes we could all look better but I see a wonderful feminine being. I hope you will give yourself permission to be you!
Suzanne

[Badtranny]

yeah, and furthermore Isha is packing a set that frankly defies comprehension. I know you ain't tuckin' honey. :-)

If there is a better example of someone who is not transitioning yet has earned the respect of the elitist TS gals, I'd like to meet her or him.

Isha is authentic, and that's all we really care about isn't it? She is straight up honest about who she is and the journey she is on. No redefining of terms will be necessary thanks.

Of course in light of recent events, I don't know if I believe anything anymore. :-)

[LeaP]

... So do we negate the changes that the non-full-time transitioners experience and continue to call them male? Do we call them something in between male and female, or do we acknowledge they feel they are female?

Again, these are just questions.

As with so many other things, it only matters where it matters. How my identity is regarded or perceived, what I'm called, the pronouns and all the rest, along with any sensitivity I have about them, vary by circumstance. In many where I present male, I use my given name and male pronouns, even when people know I'm trans. Examples include my doctor (trans herself) and electrologist. My therapist tends to use both, unless I show up for a session dressed (rare, as I have mostly come directly from work).

Where I couldn't care less is where credibility doesn't matter. Including with almost everyone here. If I know you, it matters to me. If I don't, feel free to call me whatever you want. I really don't care and it doesn't change anything as far as what I'm doing.

I *am* sensitive, and self-conscious when I present male to trans friends. That includes the Skype conversation Theresa mentioned. It includes another with Kaitlyn on an occasion where Anne and I met up. Anne was Near Full Time (NFT™) at that point, I was, once again, meeting after work. BUT, my sensitivity was only with Kaitlyn - Anne and I have met over the last 2-3 years ... both mostly presenting male. Kathryn has seen me both ways and I can be self-conscious with her, too.

Because *I* actually believe what you do is arguably more important than what you think, my self-consciousness is rooted in mixed feelings about my own credibilty (i.e., to myself)! But that's all on me. There are reasons for my path and I can live with both the external perceptions and the self-doubt that creeps in on occasion.

I dont get worked up about the identity question here when it comes to people with whom I haven't connected in the real world because the contention on this isn't really over identity. It's related to a point of forum and internet etiquette! Mostly, the courtesy is extended. Join as Babette and you will be called "she" and "Babette." I.e., you are actually being *treated* as if you were female, whether you are or not. The conversations on identity that arise from topics like full and part-time living don't change the courtesy, they are philosophical points. I understand why someone might not like another's position because they see it as a personal reflection, but it's actually not. These are theoretical and philosophical points. Views that can - and do - come down differently in individual cases in real life. A person may well strongly argue the idea that FTEFW isn't transition and, that as a permanent arrangement, reflects on identity. The same person might well acknowledge the identity in real life!

It doesn't make make sense to to extend identity courtesy in a discussion where the question of identity is the point. It's not only irrelevant, but if so extended, merely adds unnecessary verbiage. "Babette: I'm FTEFW, will never have FFS, take hormones, or have SRS, and always will be just like this, and I'm a woman! ... Edna: You're a woman, all-righty, but my view is that ..."

Really? Are people SO sensitive to a theoretical point that they need this validation from someone on the internet? Whom they typically don't know?

[ReineD]

Really? Are people SO sensitive to a theoretical point that they need this validation from someone on the internet? Whom they typically don't know?

I don't know if the the arguments about identity are due to personal sensitivity or if they are philosophical disagreements. But I initially thought if both sides could agree on the following three points, there might be fewer circular arguments.

1. Full time transition is not the same as someone who has begun a physical transition but whose end point is not full time.
2. Both camps' gender identities might still be the same.
3. If there is agreement on the above, then use a term other than just "transition" to acknowledge the change from male to "somewhere in between male and female", whether people use full-time transition vs. partial transition, or something else.



Because *I* actually believe what you do is arguably more important than what you think, my self-consciousness is rooted in mixed feelings about my own credibilty (i.e., to myself)! But that's all on me. There are reasons for my path and I can live with both the external perceptions and the self-doubt that creeps in on occasion.

I agree with you. But then it's difficult to know the motives for not going full time. Is it for convenience to not deal with internalized transphobia, to appease a marriage, to preserve male sexual functioning, or is it to continue a stream of income for survival. Does the motive mask a reluctance to give up a male gender role which brings into question the innate gender identity, or is the motive a question of financial survival.

So maybe it is not possible to agree on terms, since the terms depend on the motives. And if the motive to not transition full time is an underlying desire to preserve a male gender role, then I can see why someone might be sensitive since this would cause internal conflict.

Edit - Years ago there were equally contentious arguments here between full time TSs, on the question of SRS. Did the reason to not choose SRS (except for people who could not afford it or who had medical issues preventing surgery) mask an underlying desire to preserve male sexual functioning, and if so, could they claim a female gender identity. In other words, did full transition necessarily include SRS. I don't know what the consensus among TSs is now; if it is generally accepted that the decision to not have SRS if the motive is to continue having sex as a male, does not affect a person's gender identity as a female.

[mechamoose]

I've obviously been doing it all wrong. I should have just put on makeup and gone out into the world and expected to be accepted as female. Oops it doesn't work that way.

Not on day one, or ten or one-hundred. But if you/we do this enough, it will cease to raise eyebrows.

It is a socialization exercise, really.

'We' as a species have a hard time with the strange and unknown. The only way past that is exposure. I taught my daughter how to deal with confrontations that way, and my son how to deal with wasps & bees. Most of it is fear of the unknown.

- MM

[LeaP]

Reine, I think "transition" is a term that best refers to people who are both cross-sex identified ("transsexual," as generally used here), and go full-time (at a minimum). I don't mind any of the grammatical senses used, as long as they are coherent in meaning, i.e., they describe the same thing or intention. I use "I am transitioning" all the time, and with a few quizzical exceptions - here - everyone understands *exactly* what that means.

Without getting into the morass of the underlying discussion, I accept that not all cross-sex identified people transition. So your gender identity point is theoretically valid. This is a transsexual forum, however, and most of the noise, as I see it, is coming from gender variant people of various types and identities. These have their own needs and solutions. Maybe they do need their own term. These people are often a better fit here than to the CD forum, though the regularity of the conflict makes me wonder. Maybe their concerns would be better addressed in a gender-variant forum rather than splitting the transsexual forum along transitioner and non-transitioner lines.

[ReineD]

Thanks for your thoughts, Lea (and everyone else).

[PretzelGirl]

Lea, I agree that a forum for gender variant individuals would give them a place for free flow of discussion that doesn't conflict with the needs of the binary transitioners. But when I look at the transmasculine forum, I see that it is mainly inactive. Would a gender variant forum stand a chance of regular discussion? It is a tough one as it obviously isn't a clean fit. There are similarities and there are definitely differences.

[Rogina B]

As a long time member and an out [for 11 years] "gender fluid" TG identifying person,I am curious as to who some of you feel is such a problem here on this forum....We all are on the same playground,just chose different friends to play with. I can tell you honestly that living an open,gender fluid life is far more challenging for the "masses" to accept. Those that get it are joined by those that learn from you. In the end ,we are a very effective "teaching tool"...

[Badtranny]

It's not a particular person Rogina, it's just a sort of movement towards a very relaxed interpretation of transition that some of us would like to see nipped in the bud.

The value of this forum (in my opinion) is largely derived from the frank and honest information from the people that have actually transitioned. Some of us here want to retain the integrity of words like Transition and Full-time and some others want to keep stretching the meaning of long held terms until pretty much everyone is considered to be transitioning even though they have no intention of even changing their name.

It's gotten to the point that people get on HRT and start giving transition advice. I can't speak for the other girls, but my concern isn't for the established gals. It's for the new gals (or dudes) who don't know the difference. I know the Safe Haven is allegedly for transitioners but I'm told that there are part time people in there as well and besides that wouldn't help the people who have questions anyway.

I would personally like to see the TS group be a closet free zone, but instead we have what I would consider to be way too much discussion about 'no fly zones' and 'male mode'. Most of us here consider 'coming out' to be an integral part of the process and lately there is a contingent who would argue that coming out is optional. Shoot we even had a few gals recently trying to redefine a term as old as RLE. Obviously it's just semantics for the familiar, but there are a LOT of people who read and never post. These people have concerns and I really like the idea that if they stumble onto this site (like I did) they will at least find some clarity.

[becky77]

Clarity, good luck with that.

This is the TS forum, that's people that are Transsexual or may think they are Transsexual.
And while I value the input of gender fluid, TG or non-TS identified part timers, I really wish they would have some respect.

Too often we have some TG members (not TS) pop in here because they are particularly 'in the zone' and wonder about their feelings, that's great come in and we will chat.
But instead they end up trying to redefine our necessary medical words (medical as in mental not surgery, gender therapists etc), because they need to validate their feelings, sure validate them but don't twist things.
Then those people stir up the natives, realise this TS/full-time stuff is serious, then disappear back to the CD forum.

It's constant and it's tiring, how long will it be before the TS members are so sick of their conversations being constantly aggravated that they just leave.

I'm fulltime, I'm on hormones, I have transitioned, I'm awaiting a consultation with a surgeon for SRS.
Someone that isn't full-time, May have tinkered with HRT, has no intention of transition and hasn't a clue about the surgery will on a weekly basis try tell me/us how it is and why I'm wrong, it's really disrespectful and pretty arrogant.

I go to a gender specialist that discusses my transition, an expert in the field, I come on here and someone not involved in the process attempts to correct me and what they are really saying is they know better that these gender specialists.

So many TS members have said what Transition is and its so very simple. It's the word the experts in the field use to describe the process from one gender to the other.
Male to female or female to male. That's it, it's not about surgery, it's not about hormones, it's just was one gender now another.
There is only Transition, there isn't a legal transition, social transition, medical transition etc.

Lets break those down.
Medical transition, is only surgery it's not a transition it's just surgery. We don't say someone that has had a BA has transitioned. If you want to convince me that a guy has surgery and is now a guy with a vagina and that's transition, then your nuts.

Social and legal transition are just parts of transition they mean nothing on their own, someone changes their name to Shirley but still lives as a man, how can any sane person think that is transition, it's just a name change.

Change your name and live full-time as the opposite gender to birth, congrats you have transitioned. HRT, surgery are just tools.

Before anyone starts to think I'm being exclusive then yes you are right I am. I'm suffering from a mental condition that has really screwed up my life, I couldn't take it anymore so I went to get help, I've been going through treatment for this condition and I've taken a huge gamble, put my house, work, family, friends on the line to treat my illness. How dare someone come and belittle my treatment plan by making up their own crap when they have absolutely no idea.
I think some are so wrapped up with themselves, they forget we transitioners are actually really suffering or have suffered mentally, it's not a game or some ideal and that's why it can get so heated on here.

Transition (or RLE) is not some fancy word you can manipulate to suit your needs, it has a very specific meaning to help guide seriously ill people, people that maybe in danger of suicide who may try here to find answers and instead find even more confusion.

Almost everyone that has or is transitioning agrees on its use, those who want to change the meaning are not transitioning. What does that tell you?

This is so exhausting, there are plenty of non-TS or part timers here who regularly contribute and their input is welcome, I PM part timers I have no issue with it and I certainly don't belittle what you they go through.
This is not about them and us, it's about people getting their facts wrong and then insisting they are right when they haven't done their homework.

[mechamoose]

Clarity, good luck with that.

This is the TS forum, that's people that are Transsexual or may think they are Transsexual.
And while I value the input of gender fluid, TG or non-TS identified part timers, I really wish they would have some respect.



It isn't always clear which forum we are on when doing responses. I'm betting many just click 'New Posts' and go on from there.

You have (at the very least) my respect. I wish I could be like you girls, I wish I even had the option.

Please don't invalidate me because I look like a truck driver. I *feel* female, I just need a place where that is ok. I have taste, fashion sense, love being pretty and HATE man-bags.

I get that the folks here who are/will be transitioning have a very different path than I do. I *love* that you have that opportunity. More power to you, sweetie.

I would just ask you to not marginalize those of us who don't qualify for that :/

We (at least I) will fight like a rabid weasel for you folks. I won't *ever* be where you are. I wish I could be.

We are all sisters here, and we all have our place.

- MM

[becky77]

I would just ask you to not marginalize those of us who don't qualify for that :/


How am I marginalizing?
I'm not saying stay away, I'm not saying anything negative to your way of life, I'm just asking if TS members can discuss TS issues, in the TS forum without being constantly attacked.

Can I ask why you think it's an 'opportunity' and why it's an 'option' for me but not you?
Option implies choice.

[mechamoose]

How am I marginalizing?
I'm not saying stay away, I'm not saying anything negative to your way of life, I'm just asking if TS members can discuss TS issues, in the TS forum without being constantly attacked.

I'm sorry that you feel attacked. As I said, I would bet that many posters here don't know which forum they are responding to due to software limitations.


Can I ask why you think it's an 'opportunity' and why it's an 'option' for me but not you?
Option implies choice.

I'm 6'2", 245#. I wear size 12's. I'm built like a truck.

I will never have the 'opportunity' to be 5'2", 100+ pounds. Even if I did HRT, I would still be a big eff'n moose.

I won't 'pass', I never will.

I still rock a skirt.

- MM

[stefan37]

Those that need to transition do not have that choice not to transition because of their physiology.

[Megan G]

MM,

There are not many that have the "opportunity" to be 5'2" and 100lbs, there are however quite a few of us that are 6 foot and above. As Stefan mentioned we do not have the "choice" of not transitioning because of our physiology, we have hit a wall and it must be done regardless of shape or size.

Megan

[mechamoose]

(and stefan37 )There are not many that have the "opportunity" to be 5'2" and 100lbs, there are however quite a few of us that are 6 foot and above. As Stefan mentioned we do not have the "choice" of not transitioning because of our physiology, we have hit a wall and it must be done regardless of shape or size.

Point taken. I'm *not* trapped, so I lack some perspective. Mine is more of a want than a need.

I have just accepted my physiology and decided to flaunt it, which I understand is quite different than others here.

I was not meaning to be insensitive.

- MM

[Marcelle]

Clarity, good luck with that.

This is the TS forum, that's people that are Transsexual or may think they are Transsexual.
And while I value the input of gender fluid, TG or non-TS identified part timers, I really wish they would have some respect . . .

And that makes perfect sense. I am new here and have only dipped my toe in the water and while I can identify with the an innate need/desire/requirement or whatever to identify as a woman and, I can speak to common ground on issues surrounding living your life in public including work . . . I am not transitioning (to which I will tack a caveat . . . yet). A lot of the areas discussed on this part of the forum are particular to those who identify as TS and as such, I cannot provide comment because I have no basis of understanding (short of theoretical). Transitioning as the term is applied here is (from what I read) serious stuff . . . there is not going back once you cross the Rubicon (sort to speak) and one can only go forward. For people like myself (gender fluid, part-timers, short-timers or whatever term you wish to use) we can see the Rubicon, may dip our toe in its water and some may be up their waist in the river but we are far from the other shore and until we get there we are just treading water.

Awhile back I wrote a post on the CD portion of the forum "What transitioning means to me". It was written at a time when I was beginning to question and wanted an outlet to discuss those thoughts. Now many of the TS folks who water here responded (and none were rude BTW) but they were "disconcerted" about the use of the term. Originally, I thought "so now you own a word" (yup I can be as petty as the next person) and long story short . . . I had the mods shut the post down. However, we are all capable of learning and it was a few weeks later I had my learning experience. I was having a discussion at work and the circles that I travel in we have co-opted certain common everyday words to mean something different. A person (not of our ilk) was taking part in the conversation and used a term in response to himself as if he had lived experiences specific to my circle . . . I literally lost my s%$*. It was then that I realized that those who are TS are not trying to own a word (transition) they are applying it in a context of discussion (forum) to identify shared experiences common to themselves and when someone blunders in and shouts . . . "Hey if we change the meaning of the word, I can belong" it can be grating. While it is true that terms can become more inclusive, when you are dealing with a group of people who share common experiences, changes/altering of terms waters down the shared experience to a point where the word loses meaning for the shared collective and then it is just a word.

Cheers

Isha

[becky77]

Well said Isha :)

[kimdl93]

Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?

I think this is a reasonable request. It could be limited to access by approval. The administrators and mods could certainly define the boundaries of the transsexual forum to include only those who are transitioners by their definition of the term.

Until then, the boundaries might be established informally, with a polite reminder to non transitioners who stray here, as mechamoose indicated, but responding to new posts.

[Carlene]

I understand, to some degree, the feelings of those who advocate for a venue for transitioners only, or at least seem to choose that side of the discussion. I don't feel that way because it seems all opinions and contributions are worthy, but it isn't my opinion that brings me to this thread.

I have a sincere question for those who have transitioned. My question is this, where does the person who identifies as female but is unable or unwilling to transition belong? There are members who do not see themselves as cross dressers, but rather, as women who must continue living a dual life.
If they are not offensive and don't overstep the boundaries of their own RLE, would they still be welcome here?

[Badtranny]

I was not meaning to be insensitive.

Mecha, I don't know if you know this, but I am a huge fan. I love your perspective and I respect your honesty.

Having said that, your comments go directly to what I was trying to say in my earlier post. I realize you weren't trying to be insensitive but I want you to imagine how your twin or maybe an even bigger girl might feel reading those words.

The reason why this forum changed my life was precisely because there were people here who had transitioned despite overwhelming odds. If I had found a bunch of posts about NOT transitioning because of the job, or family, or wife, or physicality, I may still be searching for my truth. That may sound crazy, but I really didn't know any better and seeing posts from these incredibly bright people about surviving transition actually made me think for the first time in my life that it was possible. These were real people with real problems and they were somehow able to overcome the fear and explore their nagging gender issues in real time, in real life.

Non transitioners come in here and post these long diatribes about why the WON'T transition. That's wonderful for them, or sad for them, but when I have a close friend who is now sharing custody of her children because of her transition it kinda irks me when a part timer rolls in and says they love their family too much to transition. If there is no transition then why have a TS forum at all?

Yes, people can feel just like me, and not transition. I really don't know what that has to do with anything. I'm not here to judge people's feelings, I'm here to help transgender people in their ill advised transitions. (they're ALL ill advised)

[Kimberly Kael]

I have a sincere question for those who have transitioned. My question is this, where does the person who identifies as female but is unable or unwilling to transition belong? There are members who do not see themselves as cross dressers, but rather, as women who must continue living a dual life.
If they are not offensive and don't overstep the boundaries of their own RLE, would they still be welcome here?

I don't see why anyone shouldn't be welcome. I would just expect that they'd acknowledge and respect why this particular sub-forum exists. That doesn't include derailing threads until they're locked. It doesn't include broadening this area to the point where the people actively pursuing a transition or living a post-transition life don't feel like this is a safe space to discuss their lives and their issues.

[LeaP]

... I would just expect that they'd acknowledge and respect ... That doesn't include derailing threads until they're locked. It doesn't include broadening this area to the point where...

They don't. They do. It has.


I don't see why anyone shouldn't be welcome. ...

And that's why.

But it's not a matter of welcome (or validation, or credibility, or, or, or) so much as it is to avoid confusion and distractions. Almost everyone (almost!) is well-intentioned, so it isn't necessarily a moderation issue, either. At least until the misunderstandings and disagreements get to the point of conflict. The simple fact is that there are limits to understanding, the applicability of advice, and the relevance of commentary, despite a high level of emphathy.

[ReineD]

The value of this forum (in my opinion) is largely derived from the frank and honest information from the people that have actually transitioned. Some of us here want to retain the integrity of words like Transition and Full-time and some others want to keep stretching the meaning of long held terms until pretty much everyone is considered to be transitioning even though they have no intention of even changing their name.

I do see the point now. Initially I was wanting parties to make peace with one another by agreeing to terms that do differentiate between full-timers and non full-timers, but it's apparent that calling everyone's changes transition (full-time vs. partial) is not the solution.

Still, it would be good to come up with a term to describe what people do who are modifying their bodies with HRT and who have come out to significant numbers of people, other than calling it an extension of crossdressing. There is a difference between CDers who are only out to their wives and kids and who do not modify their bodies with HRT and people who do (impacting their sexual functioning along the way) and who risk their relationships with extended family members and personal friendships by coming out to them, even if they do not plan on coming out at work and changing all their legal gender markers.



Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?

Again I see what you mean now. But to clarify, you're not asking gender-fluid people to not post here, as long as they acknowledge the differences between what they do and what TSs do? Otherwise we'd have to ask TSs (the few who do this) to stop, in the CD section, answering questions about perspectives and experiences understood to have been asked specifically to CDs, from their own TS perspective that they used to be CDers but how things changed for them, which does have the potential to skew a newbie's perception of how the average CD feels.



There is only Transition, there isn't a legal transition, social transition, medical transition etc.

That's what I meant. There are several steps to a full transition and they include physical modifications, coming out to everyone and living as a woman, and changing gender markers to reflect the new reality. I didn't mean there are three different and separate types of transition.

Yes ... we do need different terms to describe the different goals to taking hormones otherwise it's too easy to conflate everything.


I am not transitioning (to which I will tack a caveat . . . yet).

This small three-letter word is a huge admission, Isha. It spells the difference between knowing that one is not a woman, and believing that one might be given enough time to figure it out. Saying "yet" has the potential to change the way that people see you in this forum. :)

[stefan37]

The difference Reine of those of us that crossdressed for years posting in the CD section. We have experience of what that is like. Ok some of us eventually transitioned. But certainly my experience has validity.

A part timer may have existence with certain aspects of going out dressed and interacting with the public as a woman. Their experience is limited. Living part-time except for.... Is not the same as living full-time 24/7.
I will day that although Isha is not transitioning at this time. She has experience what it's like to live and work as a woman.

I have been on HRT for 3 years. I inject and didn't participate in any discussion on patches. I have no experience with the application of efficacy of them vs pills or injections.
I would not like to see this subforum restricted to only those that are TS or actively transitioning. We are here to try to help those behind us that are unsure or questioning.

Melissa actually coined a term "transitoner" I thought accurately describes the process those of us are doing.
The confusion starts when those not actively going through or intending to go through the process. Dilute the meaning to validate their acceptance.

[LeaP]

The difference Reine of those of us that crossdressed for years posting in the CD section. We have experience of what that is like. Ok some of us eventually transitioned. But certainly my experience has validity.


If you consider a male-identified crossdresser vs the "crossdressing" (MTF) transsexual, the experience only goes so far. Even though you might have THOUGHT yourself male at the time. Why? Because you have no real understanding of being male. Understanding of the male world - sure. Understanding of how you (woman) coped in a man's world - sure. But can you claim anything more than a bare intellectual understanding of a male crossdresser's inner experience? Isn't the extensibility of your crossdressing experience limited just as a crossdresser can only glean a limited understanding of ours?

[Zooey]

The difference Reine of those of us that crossdressed for years posting in the CD section. We have experience of what that is like. Ok some of us eventually transitioned. But certainly my experience has validity.

So, I'm not sure I agree with this. Just to be clear, I'm only speaking for me here, although I expect many of us are similar.

There are practical/functional issues that I have experience with, sure, but fundamentally my mindset while "crossdressing" was always and necessarily different from that of somebody who is, truly, "just a crossdresser" (as this site's community likes to say). So sure, I can comment on silly things like makeup, but me commenting declaratively on the "crossdresser experience" is just as inappropriate as somebody who hasn't gone full-time yet doing so about the "full-time experience".

To illustrate my point with another example... For a long time, I thought I understood how men think, at least to some extent - I ostensibly lived as one for 35 years, after all. Nope. Dead wrong. Clearly never understood them. I've known some good ones, and dealt with some bad ones, but only since starting transition have I actually had/taken the opportunity to interact with them in ways that have made it clear that I have no friggin' clue what's going on inside their little lizard brains. I understand a bunch of functional things about living as a man, but I cannot say I know anything about what it's like to actually be one.

Edit - Doh! Lea beat me to it, and a good bit more concisely as well. :)

[Tina_gm]

Transitioner is to me a term which describes what a person is doing about their gender identity. It is a verb to me, actually CDing is mostly a verb to me as well. I am sort of getting a bit about the frustrations of many of the people in this sub forum who identify as TS women. However, I still do see where there is a bit of judgmental nature against those who are somewhere other than where they are, and haven't gone through what they have. Yet, most who now identify as TS, were once there themselves, and likely were once at a point where they either denied being TS, to others and or to themselves, or really hadn't figured it out for themselves yet.

By all means, anyone who is not transitioning and or planning to should imo NOT being giving any advice or much of an opinion on transitioning. I don't come here often enough or have read threads where I have seen that (not saying it doesn't happen) but I haven't seen it personally. This thread, and the other which got locked have caught my interest though.


There are times where there is not a CD thread which catches my interest, or how I may be feeling about myself at the moment seems to resonate there, but here it may. Before I go any further, I will state I do not identify as TS, and have no plans on transitioning. I will also state however, that my internal femininity goes deeper than the mere experience of wearing clothing, and having an outward appearance of a woman. Sometimes, the more real nature of this section just works better for me. Mostly just with the self identity threads. There are a great many CDers who are caught somewhere within this purgatory of gender. Some will and some have ended up out on this side, others will always remain trapped in it. I feel I may be among those who will always be more than a casual dresser, but less than a TS woman in terms of identity.

As is often stated here, most will say they transition because of a need to. If one can make a choice between transitioning or not, the choice should always be not to. Basically having a choice indicates one shouldn't. I can only offer a basic agreement with this logic. What I do feel though is a real feminine existence internally. I am not and have not classified it to be identifying as female. But, that femininity can often cause me to feel more like one than a male. Dressing doesn't cause me any great excitement, or thrill, or any sexual issue, it just makes me feel more comfortable. I have realized my femininity is deeper, more internal than how I appear or the clothes I wear. For that I only hope that my femininity is respected as real as anyone who is TS, or a GG. While not a complete identity, what there is of it IS as real. There is no wannabe about me, and no fantasy either.

I am old enough not to have my core social structure reside on the internet, but there are younger people whose socialization is as much if not more on the internet. There are others, and some among you who could not figure out what was wrong with you for so many years until the discovery that you were a woman living in a man's body, or like many, who get caught in some gender purgatory. I would only hope that the the TS side not be so hostile toward those who are in a spot of discovery, that they opt out of what is right for them. Or the many who sometimes just need to know their gender issues are more real, more internal and have a comfortable place to go, even if their path does not lead to transition.

[flatlander_48]

Definitions are always important. It's important because we (crossdressers, transgender people and transsexual people) should be the ones to define ourselves. If we can't clearly convey the idea of who we are to the outside world when appropriate, who will?

Personally, I like simple definitions where possible. Elegance is often born of simplicity. However, I realize that clinical definitions often must have at least some degree of complexity due to creating and referencing specific constructs. For the sake of simplicity, the way it looks to me is:

Crossdresser: Someone who chooses to occasionally present as the opposite gender for their own personal satisfaction without reference to frequency or location.

Transgender: A person who has at least some degree of gender dysphoria such that their gender identity is not exactly aligned with their birth sex. To satisfy this, some time is spent presenting as the opposite gender. No qualifier is placed on the degree of gender misalignment; just its existence.

Transsexual: A person whose degree of gender dysphoria represents a complete, or nearly complete, mismatch between birth sex and gender identification. Conscious steps are taken in order to reconcile this mismatch and gain alignment. The specific end game is not stated because some may completely transition, but some may not due to medical considerations, financial considerations or life situation (for example, caring for an elderly parent and being employed may not allow for extended absences for medical procedures). Regardless of the physical considerations, the person will likely live as the opposite gender full time.

Transitioner: Someone who is in the process of consciously taking steps in order to reconcile the above mentioned mismatch and gain alignment. Note that ones personal end game is not specified.

If engaged in a conversation with people outside of this community, what I wrote above is essentially what I would say. I think it is fairly understandable if one is in any way open to new information. I can't see complicating it beyond this; at least for the first pass.

DeeAnn

[Kimberly Kael]

The problem I have with excluding people from conversation entirely is that I, like many others, went through a period of time when I was trying to understand my own experience. Interacting with and asking questions of folks who had transitioned was a valuable part of my own growth. My primary motivation in spending time here is to pay it forward for another generation of trans folks getting to know themselves.

Sure, we could just shut people out but that's basically the nuclear option. It doesn't feel like the strategy of a healthy, growing community. It's throwing out the good along with the bad because we don't know how to deal with the problem.

As for posting my experiences in the CD areas? I do so very occasionally when it seems especially relevant. Mostly I refrain, largely out of recognition that my own experience as a woman was quite different from that of someone who comfortably identifies as male.

[LeaP]

Sorry to call you out, but both gendermutt and flatlander_48 are examples of non-TS creating semantic confusion. (And both well-intentioned, as I pointed up in a previous post.)

The reference to people outside the community is useful. When I tell someone I'm transitioning, it is unambigously received by the general public as "sex change" ... in turn used as a proxy for changing gender role and presentation ... permanently. Why don't they include SRS in the understanding of "sex change"? Got me, but they will ask IF you're getting "the operation" in connection with it. Tell someone you're transitioning because you're taking hormones (and that's it), and you'll have to unwind their understanding.

[Kimberly Kael]

On the other hand, tell them that you're transitioning but that your medical decisions are frankly none of their business and they'll generally understand that, too. It's why I do occasionally use the term social transition to let people know I'm not going to be talking about anything but socially relevant aspects of my transition.

[Rachel Smith]

They don't. They do. It has.


Shouldn't we be able to find a place here for those that Carlene is talking about?

[LeaP]

To what end?

Perhaps they are better off in a gender variant forum - because, as a practical matter, that is the life they will lead.

[flatlander_48]

Sorry to call you out, but both gendermutt and flatlander_48 are examples of non-TS creating semantic confusion. (And both well-intentioned, as I pointed up in a previous post.)

LP:

I'm not sure what your objection is, so I would ask you to explain.

However, I don't see this as creating semantic confusion when what I said was intended to be a distilled version of some common terms. Also, there is a major difference between what I would say to someone outside the community and what you might say to the same person. I was speaking in generalities with the purpose of providing information. You would be speaking about your personal experiences. The conversations would be significantly different.

I also steered away from explaining the details of what one would do, that would be observable or demonstratable, to crossdress or to transition. That would be the 2nd or 3rd level of the conversation. The text that I wrote would be the 1st pass. As a community we seem to have difficulty in defining concepts that should be pretty straightforward.

As it relates to your 2nd paragraph, what precedes your telling someone that you are transitioning? It would seem that the conversation should start with the concepts of gender identity and gender dysphoria in order to provide context for the information that you are transitioning. If conversations start with "I'm transitioning" people would have no foundation for receiving your information.

A parallel would be the discussions that took place about same-sex marriage. Starting with "For true equality, everyone should be allowed to marry." doesn't get you very far because there is not basis for understanding the statement. But, if the conversation were started by saying "Under federal law, there are 1138 rights and privileges that depend upon marital status.". Then, you explain what a few of those are, how they are beneficial to opposite-sex couples and then how they negatively impact same-sex couples. That becomes the basis for understanding why same-sex marriage was such an important issue. We should be using the same methodology within our community.

DeeAnn

[Kathryn Martin]

There, I haven't been here for weeks, months and still the same discussions we have had years ago. And I always thought "transitioner" meant "in the process to become" transitioned which means you are fully integrated as a woman in your social and professional environment.

[flatlander_48]

There, I haven't been here for weeks, months and still the same discussions we have had years ago.

Well, we could call it Glacial Swiftness or perhaps Soap Opera Cadence? Either way, snails would run rings around us...

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

The difference Reine of those of us that crossdressed for years posting in the CD section. We have experience of what that is like. Ok some of us eventually transitioned. But certainly my experience has validity.

Yes, of course it does. But do you think it wise to tell a newbie GG posting in the Loved Ones section about her husband's apparent (by all her descriptions) CDing, that there is a chance he might be TS, or should you wait until you know more than just one post, or until her husband joins so you can have a chance to see where he (or she) is coming from. What percentage of the 6,000 members will end up transitioning - 200, 100, 50, 25? So do we tell everyone who comes in here that their husbands (or new CDers if they first ask questions about makeup, going out, etc) *might* be TS?


But can you claim anything more than a bare intellectual understanding of a male crossdresser's inner experience? Isn't the extensibility of your crossdressing experience limited just as a crossdresser can only glean a limited understanding of ours?

Right! So when people who identify as TS and who are transitioning, say there is only one spectrum beginning with CDers and ending with TSs and they relate to the CDers who post about their experiences (when they say, "I know how you feel because I have felt exactly as you do"), I have sometimes wondered if they need to take more time to get to know themselves.

[Rianna Humble]

So do we tell everyone who comes in here that their husbands (or new CDers if they first ask questions about makeup, going out, etc) *might* be TS?

I think you would be hard pressed to find an example of that from any of the current transitioning members

[Kate T]

There, I haven't been here for weeks, months and still the same discussions we have had years ago. And I always thought "transitioner" meant "in the process to become" transitioned which means you are fully integrated as a woman in your social and professional environment.

This would seem the simplest and least ambiguous approach.

Though I am curious. It seems to me that many TS are quite concerned about gaining employment and being acknowledged at work as a woman yet most of the women I know (at least in my profession) are more concerned about being acknowledged at work as a person, a person who is good at their job. Their gender is (or at least should be) irrelevant.

[ReineD]

Rianna, just read some of the threads in the Loved Ones section.

Adina, genetic women have traditionally been the underlings and because of this a woman wants to be respected for her work, not discriminated against because she is a woman. Still, she and everyone else knows and accepts her as a woman. Transwomen also don't want to be discriminated against for being women, but at the same time they do want to be recognized as women and not as "this person who used to be a man".

[sarahcsc]

I also steered away from explaining the details of what one would do, that would be observable or demonstratable, to crossdress or to transition. That would be the 2nd or 3rd level of the conversation. The text that I wrote would be the 1st pass. As a community we seem to have difficulty in defining concepts that should be pretty straightforward.
DeeAnn

This concept is as straightforward as we want it to be. However, we tend to complicate the heck out of things because we're intellectuals.

Just take the concept of "woman" for example and look at how that has changed over the generations. There was a time when being a "woman" is associated with wearing dresses or looking like Marilyn Monroe. But that stereotype was later rebuked because many women like wearing something else and enjoy... well, not looking like Marilyn Monroe.

Now, the concept of "woman" is so diverse that you can hardly find any consensus within the same culture, let alone across different age groups and regions of the world.

This forum is populated with a group of intellectuals who are obsessed with definitions. And like the DSM-5, we are essentially trying to label a phenomena which is complex, multifactorial, and subjective.

At least DSM-5 is based partly on research and epidemiological data, what we have here on the forum are a group of people with unique experiences trying to exert their opinions based mainly on anecdotal experience.

In the end, it boils down the most vocal group of individuals to define what these terms mean, at least when the terms are being used in this forum.

Their theories and observations can neither be empirically proven nor disproved.

I'm not saying that definitions are not important because I believe they facilitate communication.

But to be pedantic about it only serves to invalidate others and disrupts communication.

I don't remember women arguing if "one is more 'woman' than the other", so why are we so bothered with who is more 'trans' than others?


... My tribe are all fully transitioned gals who don't have secret lives. I am not passing judgement on those who are closeted, I'm merely making a distinction. They are different. They may have excellent reasons for being different, but they have chosen to NOT be a part of our tribe, to not share our struggle, to not join us on the front lines in the push for acceptance....


There is a distinction between between 'not choosing' and 'not ready'. We all have our own battles to fight before we are 'ready' to take the plunge. Just like every soldier needs to be trained before they are ready for combat. A soldier in training could be just as eager to fight as the rest of their comrades and to say that they have 'chosen' not to participate in battle is insulting.

You can be and feel exclusive in that tribe of yours, but count me out.

Love,
S

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i think there is a difference between not choosing and not ready as well
but as i've said many times, a woman is a woman....ts or not.......and in many other posts misty has been crystal clear that a big reason for being here is to communicate with the "not ready"

thats why i am here too

and frankly i am fiercely protective of those people...it is a brutal stark place to be a woman that cant or wont transition....its horrible..i have been there, and it sucks...
and i feel blessed to be able to share my experience with them and hopefully have a positive influence..
and when i see stuff that just aint the way it is, and i see people projecting their gender identities on to struggling ts women or men, or when i see fantasy/non constructive patterns in ts women,
i post my thoughts...

not transitioned ts people are not well served by "you go girl", cd's trying to redefine and assume their identities, and intellecual masturbation... and for those of us that transition, this forum is a small microcosm of how we are viewed..
lots of supporters, lots of disbelievers, lots of dreamers and lots of people that tell us about something they do not comprehend...

i would be shocked to find out 2+2=5...if it were really five, i would have no way to know this because of how i understand the world...
transition = 5

and last thing...

this doesnt mean GD is exclusive to ts women or men...its not UNsupportive of cd's to focus on ts people
all experience is valid but claiming false experience is not constructive, everyone is welcome to post but they must own their posts, and accept reasoned and informed responses even if they don't like them
transition is brutal but it can be managed and executed successfully most of the time..
and pls don't insult my intelligence...i'm aware some people have no $$, having crippling comorbid mental health issues, or they are buried in a religious family,etcetc and have a much tougher road than others...

alot of the conversations i get into are about people getting their feelings hurt over those things...the hurt feelings inject intellectually barren strawmen into many conversations here..

for example sarah...nobody says "i'm more trans than you...NOBODY"...and yet you repeat it over and over... you falsely conflate saying "im transsexual and here is what i did to transition" with i'm more trans than you... and frankly, some people are transsexual, everybody else is not.... what would have us say..

and you implicitly impugn the motives and thoughts of people you've basically accused of elitism, then you say there are way to many people obsessed with definitions, fair enough...but you are obsessed with imponderable ideas period..

[LeaP]

... I'm not sure what your objection is, so I would ask you to explain.

...what I said was intended to be a distilled version of some common terms. Also, there is a major difference between what I would say to someone outside the community and what you might say to the same person. ...You would be speaking about your personal experiences. ...

... The text that I wrote would be the 1st pass. As a community we seem to have difficulty in defining concepts that should be pretty straightforward.

As it relates to your 2nd paragraph, what precedes your telling someone that you are transitioning? ...

A parallel would be ... [legal and social commentary]

You are redefining common terms. It's that simple. The rest of world isn't nearly as confused (or perhaps agenda-laden) as some here. I explained that when I said that when I tell someone "I'm transitioning" they already have a clear idea of what that means - and it happens to match what the vast majority of TS say. I.e., changing from one gender presentation and role to another, full-time, permanently.

What precedes that for me? Telling people that I'm transsexual. (rarely, "transgender" - a term that I'm making efforts to abandon competely) Example - a real one: I had a new hairdresser. I sat down, she asked what I wanted. I said, almost word for word, "Here's the deal. I'm transsexual and will be transitioning. I would like a compromise cut that allows me to brush it back at work, but will still work with a hairpiece on top to achieve a feminine result, basically a modified bob cut." That was followed by her delighted reaction and subsequent description of a trans person she knew. I've used a similar script with others. They *invariably* understand exactly what I'm saying. No ambiguity. Ever.

I have no issue with your use of "crossdresser, partly because I'm NOT one. So, close enough, and it's brief and non-nuanced besides.

Your use of "transgender" to denote some sort of mixed or partial identity is a shorthand use within the community. It is also a redefinition of the term, both in formal terms (the umbrella usage, which is primary), and in common parlance (the general public almost always understands "transgender" to denote "transsexual." Your usage REQUIRES a nuanced and detailed explanation. Moreover, you've overloaded it with assumptions (e.g., spectrum concepts), overlayed activities and end points, then conflated identity, presentation, and dysphoria. I.e., semantic confusion. On a the 1st pass, no less! Your "distillation" of transsexual and transitioner suffer the same issues.

You mention that you use these definitions and explanations when speaking with the outside world. I'm dismayed, frankly. While I respect your desire to educate people and I recognize your sincerity, the representations you are making regarding transsexuals and transition do not represent my views, or the view of the majority of people like me. Since I also don't think they correspond with the general public's notions, I see it as introducing the semantic confusion that exists within the community TO the outside.

Extending issues of definition and semantics into legalities and politics is an inapt parallel. The law requires hard definitions and/or derivation rules that lead to clarity, either directly or by extension of principle. The workout between arriving at clear language meaning versus legal definition and treatment are *completely* different. The first is a formal exercise in semantics. The second is fundamentally a negotiation. Your definitions are soft besides, serving neither.

[Badtranny]

You can be and feel exclusive in that tribe of yours, but count me out.


LOL, well played.

Anyhoo, this isn't a place to talk about why we're NOT transitioning. In this little group, we prefer to discuss how each of us has faced and overcome those obstacles that seem insurmountable from the outside. Your advice may be to just avoid transition altogether, well hell that's my advice too.

Unfortunately some people will transition regardless of how crazy it is and those are the people who deserve our support. I am one of those gals that damned the torpedoes and have experienced the joy and pain of doing so. I come here to help those coming after me, not to sort through all the reasons I shouldn't have transitioned.

...and lets be honest here, those that aren't transitioning are loaded with excellent reasons to not do so. Are they really TS? Does it matter?

[Nigella]

I've had a few days away, and boy has this thread got hot and bothered.

No-one AFAIK is or has questioned who is and who is not TS, that is not a call anyone can make, except those who wanna be called it. What has been highlighted is the simple fact that all we ask is for people who are not (insert verb here), giving advice on (insert verb here) which they know nothing about. I have an opinion on any amount of topics, just as most of us do, what makes things different is, I will offer that opinion if asked for it, what I won't do is then try to state my opinion as fact if I know nothing about the topic. Just because it is my opinion does not make it fact.

Those who have taken whatever steps necessary offer their advice to HELP others who may wish to follow (god help them), we don't give a load of BS, just tell it like it is, how can you do that if you have not done or experienced it?

[Kathryn Martin]

This would seem the simplest and least ambiguous approach.

Though I am curious. It seems to me that many TS are quite concerned about gaining employment and being acknowledged at work as a woman yet most of the women I know (at least in my profession) are more concerned about being acknowledged at work as a person, a person who is good at their job. Their gender is (or at least should be) irrelevant.

Adina, I think it is important to realize that we are in dire need of simple and unambiguous.

Initially, any transitioning person suffers from a credibility deficit in the social ad professional context. And the only way to overcome this is to prepare well and to be good and better at your job than any man would have to be. Welcome to the world of women in our life and times. It is an interesting experience.

[Tina_gm]

LeaP, you are calling me out for semantic confusion? I am not quite sure how you get this from what I have posted here. I do not believe I have in any way attempted any re definitions. I do have opinions, that may not always be agreed upon. Anyone who identifies as TS can only self identify. THEY feel internally they are a woman, and no one can ever really argue that. Back to the OP of the what is a transitioner.... I would think that it is a description of someone in the process, present tense. Until such time they have completed transition. I really do not understand how there can be any semantic confusion there.

I do sometimes see a post in here where someone will say they have transitioned and now awaiting SRS. IMO- they are still in the process. They have completed all steps but one, which is the physical alignment, to actually be a woman physically. IMO- that is a big one. To me, anyone in the process can say they are or have partially transitioned. Sooo, they can also say they are a partial transitoner, present tense anyway. It is just my opinion, it is how I see it, which may make it wrong for some, but that doesn't make it wrong for me. What I do not do, is try to make my opinion be put on anyone else. I do not declare what anyone else is, or was or will be.

My opinion- is that there are dual gendered people, non binary to either gender, and they can be both genders internally. A TS person in the process, not out at work or in whatever social circles- yet, but it is a process, they are internally female at all times. Still, they lead a life of both, regardless of how they feel internally. A CDer who identifies as dual gender.... lives their life as both. They also identify as both. A part of them is female, a part of them is male. For many who fit in this category, those parts do not completely shut off depending on what they are doing or how they are presenting. In a sense, they are internally feeling and identifying opposite of what they are physically. It does not take anything away from someone who is internally binary the opposite of their birth gender.

[mechamoose]

Yes, of course it does. But do you think it wise to tell a newbie GG posting in the Loved Ones section about her husband's apparent (by all her descriptions) CDing, that there is a chance he might be TS, or should you wait until you know more than just one post, or until her husband joins so you can have a chance to see where he (or she) is coming from. What percentage of the 6,000 members will end up transitioning - 200, 100, 50, 25? So do we tell everyone who comes in here that their husbands (or new CDers if they first ask questions about makeup, going out, etc) *might* be TS?

I'm sorry, but I have an issue here.

I CD/TG, but I'm never going to transition. I don't need to, I don't *want* to.

Just because a partner has cross gendered feelings does not mean they are on a rail to transitioning.

Maybe I misunderstand, but your description does not seem to leave much room for TG or 'working it out' people.

- MM

[Badtranny]

Maybe I misunderstand, but your description does not seem to leave much room for TG or 'working it out' people.


Right, but remember the context.

What we're talking about here is the TS forum and people like you, while bright and interesting, are not TS and not transitioning.

The whole crux of the argument is what we should be doing here on the TS board. I am one who says we transition here. TS people for the purpose of this forum are either IN transition or HAVE transitioned. Otherwise we have posts lamenting why they can't transition, or won't transition. Those posts are not helpful to those who ARE transitioning.

If we aren't going to drive the zeitgeist of the forum in this way, then why even have a TS forum? Some would say that there are TS people who are unable to transition and that may be, but again the experience of NOT transitioning is not really helpful to those that are transitioning.

[mechamoose]

Again, as previously stated, most of us have no idea *which* forum we are responding to, we only hit the 'New Posts' button.

I have no intention of intruding in the TS space. I just have no idea when I am doing it :/

- MM

[Zooey]

Just FYI, when using the "new posts" page, the forum that contains the post is clearly visible on the right hand side of the post's row.

[stefan37]

That's a lame excuse but knowing what forum you are posting in. Posting blindly in a thread is just you fill in the blank..

[mechamoose]

No, it isn't 'lame'.

Who the F am I? Look me up. Do you think I'm going to tread in a space I don't belong in on purpose?

- MM

[Robin414]

Completely off topic but I'd just like to give MM a +1 on this, on mobile devices especially not completely obvious what part of the enchanted forest you're wandering in, been there, done that...IMHO 😉

[Nigella]

This has run its course, thanks for all the input, but time to put this thread to bed.