Attacking and Challenging Members - Fair Game or Not?

[Anne2345]

Telling a person that their ideas are invalid or wrong because they haven't:

1. Had surgery
2. Suffered as another person has
3. Lived full-time
4. Attempted suicide
5. Been discriminated against in a particular way

or had some other life experience is belittling.

We should be discussing the issues that we face. Attacking another's credibility achieves little except for driving away those who are too fragile to tolerate the drama.

Good thing, I suppose, that I am not so delicate and fragile to have run away from this site crying and bawling my ass off, never ever to return ever again, huh? Although I am sure many here have had their doubts about me over the past several years. Which is totally fair.

And in this, folk here have both challenged and attacked me for the things I have written in the past. Over and over again. Even you, Eryn, have attacked and challenged me within posts I have submitted on this forum. You have also belittled me, too, on more than one occasion, so there’s kinda this pot/kettle/black undertone thingy swimming around within the currents of your post, but I digress . . . .

Regardless, although I agree there is no place for belittling members here within the forum, the thing is that I needed members to challenge and attack me and the substance of the posts I had submitted.

I absolutely NEEDED it.

I needed it to get through all of the static, fog, and chaos roiling around inside my head. I needed smacked around and beat up some to wake me from my own self-imposed prison. I needed members here to be brutally honest to me, to even be rough with me, to stir me up, upset me, and make me THINK.

Using kid gloves would have accomplished little to nothing for me here. Using kid gloves would have done me a huge disservice.

I would be dead right now had some of y’all not stepped up to the plate and just challenged the absolute :censor: out of me, over and over again.

Anyone that takes transition lightly is in for a world of hurt. Anyone who is not fully prepared for the challenges and hardships of transition (whether such hardships and challenges come to fruition or not) is setting themselves up for failure. Anyone who moves forward down this path unprepared to sacrifice or lose huge parts of the “former” life does so at their own peril.

In a very real way, as I see it and experienced it to be, the TS section is tantamount to internet version of tranny boot camp. You gotta go through a lot of shit, be deconstructed, and broken down before you can move forward and be rebuilt into something stronger, something better, something more knowing, something more aware, into something more real and authentic.

Only a fool would believe that this section is not also inhabited and regularly visited by a fair number of tranny wannabees, folk who attempt to talk the talk but are unwilling to walk the walk, and members who are living just plain outright in fantasy land. To those people, they NEED their bubbles burst. They NEED to be challenged. They NEED to be discredited. Not only for their own good, but for the good of members here who are truly TS, but who are still early on in their transition, or are still trying to figure things out.

Words, ideas, concepts, and stories are powerful. They are not to be used or wielded casually or recklessly. Particularly not here, not in THIS forum. Because these things here truly can be the difference between life and death, between moving forward and committing suicide. This shit is SERIOUS, and it should be treated as such and taken seriously.

To those that repeatedly challenged me, I thank them and all that they did for me. I would not be where I am now without their tough love.

Instead, I would be dead. And lemme tell ya, I very much like where I am at now, and quite grateful for the opportunity to be here ALIVE to experience it all.

As such, although I am against belittling folk, I'm all for attacking and challenging members who choose or need to post here when circumstances warrant.

Just my two cents worth . . . .

[whowhatwhen]

I think 'yall put too much effort into careposting and arguing about who is real and why who is real and real real real.

Real.

[Angela Campbell]

If someone posts something that appears to be very much on the fantasy side of things, they will be called out on what they say.

I don't think that is belittling someone, it is not an attack on them as much as the subject matter. Then again if you plan on transitioning, you better be able to handle that, because out here in full time land, it's brutal.

Also if advice is being handed out, it's nice to know who it's coming from and that they are"real"

[Tina_gm]

Interesting. Is there really a TG bootcamp in here to be a member? does a pin get slapped on and penetrate ones breasts when they pass? Should there be?

What if I am going through my life, pondering, then come to a conclusion that I am a woman inside, not merely a CDer. I come on here and state this, asking for help and advice on how to deal short term with GD and long term transition... Along the way, while I do not feel any different, but I then decide that I haven't and won't be going through the 5 things mentioned. Am I then cast out of membership, or should I be? I mean, does someone have to transition to be considered TS, or should they be?

I come here occasionally to get a perspective on things. A different view point. Perhaps a validation, or just answers to questions swirling through my head. I can't really say I have felt any rejection or harsh treatment by those who identify as TS.

Interesting too, about your claim about the wannabe's. I don't wannabe any of this, and don't wannabe going any further than I feel the need to. It does tend to complicate life more than life is already ridiculously complicated as is. Maybe someone is dealing with a pink fog, and may think they are TS, and those who know the difference can help point them in the right direction, maybe not being brutal, but simply honest?

I do hope my occasional presence here is not offending anyone. There are a great many of us who are not TS, but still deal with difficult and challenging and confusing gender issues and perhaps dysphoria. I would like to hope that those in this section would be helpful, rather than harsh and brutal.

[Badtranny]

I think 'yall put too much effort into careposting and arguing about who is real and why who is real and real real real.Real.


Really?

So you don't think it matters if someone who is naive and questioning (like I once was, and Annie once was, etc etc) comes here and gets bad information from people who aren't even out?

I was helped immensely by these 'careposters' at a time when I was incredibly confused about who I was. I was also taken in by a longtime poster who 100% misrepresented themselves and befriended a few of us in the process. Eventually the fraud was uncovered but I shudder to think about those who may have made decisions based on this person's advice.

As Annie pointed out so eloquently, transition is a serious business and I don't think it's unreasonable at all that the topic of transition be represented by people that are actually transitioning.

[stefan37]

Transition is serious stuff. (Insert expletive of choice). When one starts to shed their birth gender. Things get real very fast. Marriages blow up. Familial and friendship relationships dissolve. You can lose your employment. Management can make employment difficult. Finding employment can be challenging if not impossible.

The last thing a person contemplating transition needs is to hear " you go girl ". They need to hear how others that have faced these obstacles navigated around them.
They could be in serious trouble if they get information from those espousing fairy tale transitions. The reality is the majority of us need surgical intervention to have a chance of living as our target gender. It's freaking expensive. It's not uncommon to spend 25 grand alone in facial hair removal. Add another 10 grand for therapy and hormones. 20-40 for FFS. 25 for SRS. Huge hefty price tag. How will someone pay for that. Can you afford to transition.

They need to hear from those that have been and are still going there. I mean after all this is the TS forum. The world will not sing Kumbaya and give blanket acceptance. You will need ridiculed. You will experience hostility. Hostility that can and has lead to severe injury and in some cases death.

They need to understand that their expectation of what they perceive may not materialize. Then what?? What if spending huge amounts of cash. You still are not happy. You are not passing. Will you have the internal fortitude to soldier on?

That's what the blunt honest talk those that visit this forum get. If you can't stand the heat on an internet forum. No way will you be able to handle life as a transitioner. See my definition in a previous post.

[becky77]

I don't agree with everyone and sometimes there are things said that I don't like.
However I go away have a think about it and I can be amazed at times how something makes me think differently, then I realise i've been looking at it from completely the wrong way.

Sometimes those hard unpalatable truths are the ones that end up having the biggest impact.

Also, some things just don't ring true until you are on the other side. There's no doubt about it I have certainly changed my tune since transitioning, there's nothing wrong with being challenged and when your talking BS, you need to be called out.

Transition involves a lot of growth, there's no room for uncompromising opinions.

I've learnt so much from this part of the forum and I don't mind admitting it.

[Anne2345]

I do hope my occasional presence here is not offending anyone.

You know, these things always come down to statements and accusations such as this one. I mean, it's almost not even worth discussing or putting out there crap like my OP because these things always degenerate or devolve into an argument about who is being offended by something or who is being offensive to who or whatever.

Take my words fwiw they are worth. Perhaps they are worth nothing at all. Perhaps the words of those who have preceded me are worth nothing at all. Perhaps everybody here is full of shit. Perhaps we should just clean the whole thing up, sterilize everything, and shower all who come through the door with hugs and kisses and watercress sandwiches with tea and cookies and stuff.

I did not write that it was necessary for folk here to be treated "harsh and brutal," Gendermutt. So I would appreciate you not twisting the meaning of my post like that.

And I said nothing to invalidate YOUR existence, whatever your existence may or may not be composed of.

So if I offended you, and it looks like I did based upon the substance of your reply, that's on you, not me . . . .

But if someone can't handle themselves in the relative safety of an internet forum, then they ain't got no chance at all out in the real world, and they need to know this sooner rather than later so they can do whatever is necessary to get a grip and take control of their lives . . . .

[LeaP]

IMHO, the single most important issue - throughout life - for cross sexed people, IS reality. Recognizing it. Dealing directly with it. Overcoming the effects of avoiding it. Avoiding our own fantasies and traps. Trying to stay in it and present and engaged when every fiber wants us to hide, run, or deflect. Stopping rationalization. Letting go of control.

If someone thinks they might be TS, the kindest thing you can do is help them confront reality head-on. Now. Right now. It IS the cure. Everything else is in the details.

[Tina_gm]

Anne, you did not offend me in the least, I was wondering if my presence offended those on here who identify as TS. I really am asking that question, along with a few others. I have not experienced the harsh brutal stuff, but maybe because I am not contemplating or going through transition. I would only argue that while there should not be a simple kumbaya hand holding for anyone and everyone no matter what, there are a whole bunch of people on here, who knows maybe even me, who are finding their way like those who have done so in the past and are now ready to take on transition. Being so brutal might just further confuse someone who feels unwelcome so they just keep on drifting around? I would agree though, if I come on here and say I am TS and ready to go, I should be for warned of the difficulities, and be tasked that I am certain and ready for it. I just don't know if it needs to be done brutally.

[becky77]

It doesn't offend me, nothing wrong with asking questions and contemplating things.
What can be offensive is people still in hiding telling fulltimers how it is.

What can be irritating is those who want to bend known definitions to suit themselves.

[Suzanne F]

Yes tough direct talk here is needed. Yes I have been very lucky in most respects concerning my transition so far. However, as documented there have been huge personal losses. I needed to hear people saying it wasn't real until I came out at work. That challenged me and I needed it. Yes I got defensive and yes I had good reasons for timing. But I was scared. I needed a push to get out of the nest. It is not a fairy tale to transition. This place needs to be able to transmit the truth. Of course we could all work on loving truth telling.
Suzanne

[Tina_gm]

Becky, I would sort of equate the CDers and such types telling the fulltimers how it is or bending definitions to many religious or other non accepting from society about how TG is a choice and wrong and evil yadda yadda.

[Nigella]

We have no real way of knowing who is and who isn't full time and living the life of their true gender. We take things at face value, but the wealth of experience here will soon out those who are trying to pull the wool. What I find irritating is those who will not accept that all we are doing is offering advice. I have yet to see the old ways of this forum returning, TBH, the day that happens I will hang up my moderation hat, I wouldn't want to go through that again.

There has been no attacking, but certainly lots of challening, those who do not like the challenge will have difficulties in RL, if they can't take it here.

[whowhatwhen]

Really?

So you don't think it matters if someone who is naive and questioning (like I once was, and Annie once was, etc etc) comes here and gets bad information from people who aren't even out?

I was helped immensely by these 'careposters' at a time when I was incredibly confused about who I was. I was also taken in by a longtime poster who 100% misrepresented themselves and befriended a few of us in the process. Eventually the fraud was uncovered but I shudder to think about those who may have made decisions based on this person's advice.

As Annie pointed out so eloquently, transition is a serious business and I don't think it's unreasonable at all that the topic of transition be represented by people that are actually transitioning.

It's the internet, you're supposed to take things with a grain of salt and seek guidance outside it as well.
If someone truly has to transition they will, arguments or not.

It seems like every 5 minutes here the exact same arguments happen within the same group of people about the same things.
For all anyone knows I'm actually a fat 60 year old man with hairy nipples, which is why I take my own posts and everyone else's with a grain of salt.

[Michelle789]

Anne, I love your post!!! I think you raised some interesting points here.

I think there needs to be a balance between being nice and being truthful. Many people may either sugar-coat things, or tend to say things with and intent and tone of belittling and trying to hurt others. I have personally experienced both. What bugs me isn't people being objective and telling me the truth. I want that. I want someone who can tell me the realities of transition, of whether or not I need FFS, and the realities of getting FFS. What I don't need is someone who gives me objective feedback and then goes and brags about how hot she is. This has never happened to me on the forum, but it happened to me with someone I know in real life. It really irritated the shit out of me and made me feel like crap. I was seeking out objective advice from someone who knows me in person about my face. I never asked them to brag about how hot they are or how many guys keep hitting on them. It's really irritating. Fwiw, I don't think this person is that good looking, at least not IMHO. I've seen far better looking transwoman than her who have never said anything hurtful to me. But it still gets to me. It's really hurtful and not necessary.

I've also had people on the forum who have attacked me and accused me of being not real. I've been accused of being a troll, and I have received hate mail. I have also received lots of genuine support and sound, objective, advice from this forum. I believe that most people here are sincere and come with the intent of helping out other people. This kind of belittling and attacking goes on both on the forum and in real life trans communities.

Living in fantasy land is indeed dangerous, and transition is very serious stuff. You really can lose a lot, not to mention the hefty price tag on this. However, we have to understand that we're all different human beings, with different needs, and different levels of dysphoria. What works for one person may not work for another.

The reality is that some of us may have easier goes at transition and some of us may have tougher times.

Some of us will lose all our friends, some of us will lose very few friends.

Some of us will lose our jobs and even careers, while some of us may not only keep our jobs but make our best salary since transitioning.

Some of us will pass just by putting on a wig, makeup, and women's clothes. Some of us will needs 2-3 years HRT to pass. Some of us will need HRT plus FFS to pass. Some of us will never pass.

Some of us can easily change our names and gender markers, some of us can't do it so easily.

Some of us have such bad dysphoria we may need the whole package of surgeries and procedures: HRT, facial hair removal, FFS, BA, and SRS. Some of us elect to live as women no HRT, facial hair removal, FFS, BA, or SRS. Some of us fall in the middle of the spectrum. HRT & facial hair removal, but no surgeries. Some of us may need HRT, facial hair removal, and SRS, but no FFS or BA. Some of us may need FFS but not SRS.

We all have different circumstances and personal needs dictating how we go about our transition timelines. Some of us may just go full-time from day one. Some of us may switch back and forth for a year or so before going full-time. Some of us go full-time before starting HRT. Some of us need a year of HRT before going full-time.

Some of us are in professions where our chances of losing our jobs are slim. Others work in professions that are both transphobic and sexist.

As transwomen, we face both sexism and transphobia.

The most we can do is to prepare everyone for the reality of transition. What actually happens is literally YMMV. YMMV varies not only with what happens to us with our personal transition related circumstances, but also with HRT results, and facial hair removal results, and surgery results.

We have to recognize that not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a state where they can change their name & gender easily, or that many of us can't afford it. We have to recognize that there may be TSes who need FFS and SRS but may never have the finances to pay for it.

We have to understand that some of us either are genetically blessed and don't need FFS, or that some of us just don't care whether or not we pass and can live with masculine facial features.

We have to understand that some people may not change their names or genders because they need a job, or have a difficult decision to make on whether or not to keep your birth last name.

Some of us keep our birth last name, while others change it.

Some of us know we're TS and are going to transition. Others are still questioning. Some of us may switch back and forth for many years before finally deciding to go on HRT and transition.

Some of us live in trans unfriendly states like Texas. Some of us live in more trans friendly states like California.

There may be a lucky transwoman who lives in a state like Texas that loses very little. Even in L.A. there are transwomen who lose a lot.

None of this is black and white. The real problem I see here is a lack of empathy. A lack of understanding that everyone of us is on a different path. I see that some of us fail to put ourselves in the other person's shoes, and we assume that all transitions are the same. We forget that everyone's personal circumstances are different, and that we don't all need the same procedures or surgeries. Most of the fighting I've seen here, including some that I have been involved with, are caused by a lack of understanding the other person's perspective.

Fact vs Opinion & Reading Comphrehension

There's a difference between stating what my experience is and what worked for me, and telling others that you have to do this, and being rigid about your beliefs. Your beliefs are only your experience, not necessarily fact of life. Do you remember from reading comprehension in school when they gave you "Fact or Opinion" quizzes, to decide what is a fact or an opinion. Maybe it's time to seriously brush up on our reading comprehension skills. Maybe it's time to learn what the difference between a fact and an opinion is.

Here are some examples.

Electrolysis can cost around $10,000. This is a fact, because it's measurable and can be backed up. You can actually look at your receipts and prove how much you actually paid for electrolysis.

You have to change your name and gender to be considered RLE or full-time. This is an opinion. There is nothing to actually back this up. Even WPATH doesn't state this.

You need to be on HRT for at least one year to be considered for SRS. This is a fact. It's in the WPATH standards. Most SRS surgeons require this.

You'll never pass. Opinion. It's pretty difficult for someone to predict the future and tell them whether or not they'll be passing 3 years later or not.






One more warning. Year 1 of transition isn't necessarily the hardest. Some of us may find year 2 or 3 to be the hardest. You may not lose all your friends or jobs right away. I have heard of TSes whose friends initially accepted them, and within a year, they were all gone. I have heard of TSes who initially kept their jobs, and lost them 10 months later. Sometimes you may get clocked and mis-gendered more after a year on HRT than you did before HRT. This is the biggest warning I can give everyone, is that just because your transition looks like it's going smoothly at first doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. A smooth early transition can turn into an ugly mess later on.


Social Ettiquite

I want to add this about belittling. If someone asks you for advice on whether or not they should get FFS. The best way to tell them is to point out what needs work, but also remind them of what they do have going for them. "Yes, your jawline looks masculine and jaw reconstruction or recontouring would help. However, you have great cheekbones." Don't tell them things like "you're ugly and will never pass" or "you'll never be beautiful". Don't give them constructive criticism, and then brag about how good looking you are and how much male attention you get. This will only make the other person feel like crap. Please refrain from bragging about yourself.

If someone walks up to you and asks you for advice on clothes or passing, it's okay to give constructive criticism if asked for. It's not okay to just blurt out something to someone when they never asked for constructive criticism.

Do: If someone asks you "Is my skirt length too short?" you may reply "Yes, I think you should go with something longer and more age appropriate"

Don't: Just walk up to someone and say "you're dressed too inappropriately for your age"

Do: If someone asks you "Should I wear a dress or pants?" you may reply "Pants is more appropriate for this situation" or "A dress is more appropriate for this situation"

Don't: Just blurt out "Are you going to wear normal clothes to the meeting next time?"

Don't: Say that "dresses are for cross-dressers, pants for for real TSes" - not only is blurting out something to another person wrong, but women, including transwomen, do wear dresses and skirts. And women wear pants too. There is no rule saying what to wear, other than maybe a situational expectation or workplace dresscode.

Do: If someone asks you "Is my beard visible?" you may say "Yes, I can see it"

Don't: Just blurt out to someone "90% of people clock you on your beard and don't say anything"

Do: If someone asks you "Why am I not passing?" you may say "I can see your facial hair in certain lighting" but also remind them of what they do have. Remind them, if it's true "but you have nice small hands and feet"

Don't: If someone who doesn't pass says they were ma'amed, don't say "Oh, people must be really polite these days." This is a subtle put down that reminds them that they obviously don't pass.

None of the above incidents happened to me on the forum. Every single one happened to me in real life from other transwomen in my local trans community. I am mentioning this because this stuff may go on on the forum. I just want to educate people in the etiquette on how to address people in these situations. We have to find a balance between stating objective criticism and hurting someone else's feelings. Many times our approach is what causes others to get hurt. This will serve us all good both on this forum and in real life.




Finally, I just want to say that not every one of us has big hands and feet. Some of us may just be lucky to have smaller and feminine shaped hands and feet.



The key takeaways from this post.

1. Recognize that everyone's experiences and needs are different, and try to understand the other person's perspective.

2. Understand that there is no right or wrong way to transition, nor to be a woman.

3. Brush up on your reading comprehension skills and learn how to distinguish between a fact and an opinion.

4. Exercise good social ettiquite both on this forum and in real life when addressing other people about their TS related issues.



Edit: I'll add one more thing. I think people often feel that when they've been oppressed or dealt with tough circumstances that "tough love" is the only way to go. Many people feel that they've experienced enough harshness from the world that they need to project harshness back onto others. Sometimes people feel that in their mind that "tough" or "belittling" behavior is the only way to survive. Some people just can't see the light. My father has this same exact attitude. He believes that it is somehow his duty to be a dick towards me. Take my word. If anything is going to cause you to be mistreated, aside from masculine features, inappropriate clothing, male voice, or lack of confidence, I can guarantee you that a harsh "tough love" or cruel attitude will only bring cruelty back to you, and that a nice, sweet, softer attitude will bring kindness back to you.

I will say that honestly that from my own experience if dealing with real life TSes, that the ones who are nicer, friendlier, softer personalities with better social ettiquette tend to have a much easier time at transition than do people with tough, harsh, and critical personalities. "Tough love" attracts more "tough love" and tenderheartedness attracts tenderheartedness.

I'm not saying that bad things don't happen to good people. Not at all. But if you just focus on hardship and believe that being tough is the only way to go in life, you're going to have a tough life. A tougher life than those who portray a softer, gentler approach to life. Because your attitudes are reflected back at you. People treat you based on what you put out.

[Frances]

Thank you for the takeaways! If am sure of this correlation : the longer the post, the least likely I will read it.

[Angela Campbell]

In real life? I know so many in real life who need to be told things and no one does. Those who do not work on their voices and complain about getting clocked, while telling others that they shouldn't have to do this.....

The ones who complain about a hard transition, while wearing a mini skirt and fishnets at 60 yrs old.

The ones who make their own transition difficult and tell those just beginning that they should just be themselves and don't worry about what others think about you.

If you do try, even nicely, you are told that you are being elitist, or attacking them.

[LeaP]

... the longer the post, the least likely I will read it.

This better?


We have no real way of knowing who is and who isn't full time and living the life of their true gender. We take things at face value, but the wealth of experience here will soon out those who are trying to pull the wool.
...

It usually does become obvious who is full of it. But it's not terribly difficult to establish real-life connections, either. There are people here whom I have met, called and Skyped, email, and to whom I am connected on LinkedIn. (I've turned down connections, too.) These connection are real people. I also trust those whom they know to be real. Everyone else? Who knows? When my name change hits, a lot of people are going to know it immediately. And when the professional picture changes, they'll quickly figure out why!

[natasha]

One of the reasons I dont post much....................

[Rogina B]

Anne,I am happy that you discovered Florida and it's acceptance. Perhaps we can mend fences and do some "beach days" or meet up at SCC.. Ro

[Jorja]

I don’t see much attacking or belittling here anymore. Sure, there are a few passionate and heated exchanges now and then because someone is trying to get a point across. There is some tough direct talk when a particular post reeks of pure fantasy or misunderstanding. Mostly, I see some very intelligent people trying to help others. Trying to keep an OP from making a huge mistake. Trying to talk an OP down off of the ceiling when they are upset. Trying to show a better way of handling a situation. Talking about different aspects of all of this and trying to figure it out.

I know when I leave a reply to a post, I don’t ever expect acknowledgement that the reply was even seen. I leave my reply to simply try and get the OP to think of the options available. If it applies, I try to give my own experience. Sometimes, a person needs to be challenged to keep moving. Sometimes they need to be challenged to return to square one and start over. Sometimes the person needs to feel like I have my hands around their ankles and I am pulling their head out of the clouds. None of us are perfect (well, I am pretty damn close;)), we are not going to help every time. That is life. At least we are tying and that is what really counts.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The internet grain of salt idea does not apply to consistent and coherent posters.

That doesn't mean you have to agree but if you can't see the honesty and strength of the consistent posters here you are missing out.

It's a very destructive and serious issue and heated discussions are expected.

[whowhatwhen]

You know who else was a consistent and coherent poster?
That's right... Hit- wait, that other girl that always posted here.

e:
Sorry y'all got catfished but it's time to let it go.

[becky77]

You know who else was a consistent and coherent poster?
That's right... Hit- wait, that other girl that always posted here.

e:
Sorry y'all got catfished but it's time to let it go.

That's a really negative view, one person acts the Troll it's shame on them for being the low life.
Not shame on those taken in, if you want to go through life with such distrust you will be pretty lonely.

I give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. Most people can't keep up the lie for long, if they do they are the loser for being so pathetic not me for being open and honest.

[whowhatwhen]

The theory goes that you're following the standards of care and you take what you can from internet advice and apply it to your own situation as/if you can.
I've gotten some great advice here and I really never gave two farts who it came from.

/me shrugs

[Rianna Humble]

Some of us may switch back and forth for a year or so before going full-time. Some of us go full-time before starting HRT. Some of us need a year of HRT before going full-time.

There is nothing wrong with the circumstances that you describe. What does jar on those of us who have pulled the pin, is when the people you describe try to tell people that they know what it is to be full time, or when someone who states elsewhere that they "femm up" one or two days a month decries those who are sharing lived experience as being "Trannier than Thee".

I cannot offer practical support for someone who says that they are transitioning from male to male with benefits in the same way that I can someone who is transitioning from male to female. Why? Because practical support demands lived experience.

If I had not had a few friends who were prepared to challenge my ideas and make me examine my intentions long and hard, I would have had a much more difficult transition. As it is, when I was invited to share some my experiences last year with a group of people seeking to understand how to better support trans folk, it left all of them shell-shocked and wondering how I coped. What good would sugar-coating have done them?

[PaulaQ]

There has been no attacking, but certainly lots of challening, those who do not like the challenge will have difficulties in RL, if they can't take it here.

Yeah, I agree. In fact, I punch people in the throat when they first come into the group I lead and tell me they want to transition. Preparation for real life challenges! /rolleyes.

Hey, after I get my surgeries next week, do I get to tell people the right and proper way to transition (obviously the way I did it, of course)? Because a helluva a lot of that has gone on here - especially in times past.

I didn't find some of the criticism I got here early on to be especially helpful. Some of the least helpful, however, came not from other trans women on this forum, but from some of the cisgender folks who chime in from time to time, and who have no right to offer their views on transitions, in my opinion. They are simply incapable of understanding what we need and why we do this, despite accidents of their birth that cause them to be so esteemed here.

I think that telling only the terrible side of this is unhelpful. Not everyone has an awful transition. I haven't. Yeah, I've lost stuff. Most of us do. I tell my story honestly. That means talking about bad stuff that's happened. But I also talk about the successes.

And the reason I do those things is because two years ago, I held on to life by a thread. Wanna tell me transition is hard - that it's hopeless? Great - I was ready to end my life, and in fact tried it thanks to some of the awesome feedback I got here. No fantasies here - I was ready to cash in my chips because I had no more will to live with the pain I felt. I had more than one person question that such feelings were even likely for me to have. I shake my head in wonderment at that attitude. I wish I was the only person who'd ever felt as I did. Unfortunately, I see this all too often. When I meet someone who is going to transition, but never reached the point of feeling suicidal I thank them and congratulate them on seeking treatment before it became critical.

The folks on here who, mostly through PM's, gave me encouragement saved my wretched life. So I try to return the favor with others - and a big part of that is hope. When someone's dysphoria is so terrible that they cling to life by one finger, that slim hope someone offers them that they can feel better may be the ONLY hold on this life they have.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You know who else was a consistent and coherent poster?
That's right... Hit- wait, that other girl that always posted here.

e:
Sorry y'all got catfished but it's time to let it go.

Nope. That person was not consistent and coherent over time. Many of us were on to "her".

No offense to current mods but a number of us called it out but were shut down by mods. Some really good people left the forum because of it.

Although the mods do a good thankless job sometimes they shut down comments and threads that expose people for what they actually are.

And it's exactly the opposite of let it go. That person is the reason to have challenging conversations.

[LeaP]

Terrific response, Kaitlyn. Your last comment is spot on.

[STACY B]

Hell they Busted my Chops here a Bunch of times ,,lol,, Most of you just STOP AND THINK BACK,, Back when you first came here and what you knew or thought you knew? You just gotta know when to Shut up an back down when you don't really have the answers. First thing they tell you here is to seek Therapy,, Until you see a Pro and get an Expert to evaluate you your opinion really doesn't count all that much anyway. There is a Little bit of a System here, An then it's off to the endo and so on and so forth.

This is Not the Cross dressing part,, No one here wants to here you went out here and there and about what you bought or anything of that sort, Some of us like that stuff and we will go to the CD side and check it out but these folks here are serious Bizz about Transition from one sex to another Full time all the time from begin to end and all that RLE is all a part of it and it you havent reached out that far yet don't comment about stuff you know nothing about.

Like me I joke an clown but stay within my spectrum of Transition time, All the Catfish folks will get found out sooner or later they all do, This is a small world and we Meet each other from time to time and without Trans Cred from meeting someone from here your words mean very little to most of us. No matter the picture or your big words or talk personal meet up to verify your real is priceless in my book.

Anyway Bang away at me and Please convince me to STOP an to Not Transition and tell me how to go about it and live to tell others. Just because we are all trans we are different people from different places in the world and live different lives and are never going to all get along and for the most part only thing we do have in common is being Trans an nothing more. :notworthy:

[sarahcsc]

For everybody along this path, there will be times when they need to be supported, and there are times they will need to be challenged.

If you assume that a 'hit of reality' is what everybody needs, then maybe you should read about the importance of having dreams and fantasies too.

We shouldn't be the ones to dish out reality because our realities are always going to be biased.

We can certainly tell others our stories, but to assume it to be 'reality' is nothing short of arrogance and ignorance.

I've heard both horrendous and wonderful stories of transitioning, some were full of hardships while others were smooth sailing. Somehow, the former is emphasized but the latter ignored.

It is the "don't transition unless you are faced with suicide or have absolutely no choice" mentality which generates so much negative views.

And the "you don't know what you're talking about unless you've gone through what I've gone through" mentality that creates the divide.

Also, people who holds these mentalities are often the most vocal group as well.

I agree that we all need to be supported and challenged at different times, but we should leave our stories, biases and agendas out of the picture as much as possible and focus on the person asking for help. We might still get things wrong sometimes but at least our conscience will be clear.

The very concept of sex and gender and transitioning means differently to different people. To heed only the advice of those "who are out" is to lose sight of the vast majority of others who have faced other unique challenges in their lives who has equally precious pearls of wisdom to share. Why discredit others "who are not out"?

Love,
S

[whowhatwhen]

That person is the reason to have challenging conversations.

Challenging conversations or threads arguing the same thing about whose real or not?
It takes too much effort to caaaaare.

*takes grain of salt*

[Frances]

Then don't get involved in such threads?

We are talking about so-called "real" transsexuals, or real people? There is a big difference.

[whowhatwhen]

My bad, keep having the same discussions over and over.
Have fun!

[LeaP]

Sara, there is a place for the desires of the heart (what I interpret from your "dreams and fantasies".). I doubt this is the place to indulge that (if you'll excuse the term). My guess is that the forum would quickly be overwhelmed with posers to the point of being completely unusable.

But say we did. Ask yourself what kind of dreams and fantasies have you seen presented here? How often have they had any correlation to real life, been substituting for action, or present other conflicts? You can answer that for yourself.

I went to a hair transplant surgeon today for a consult. This is a HUGE issue for me. I didn't get the answers I expected on several topics. I was told quite directly what my best options were and why. He might have indulged my fantasies (desires?) for other answers, but what would that have served? It would have set me up for a worse disappointment later, as well as additional expense.

[Kimberly Kael]

For everybody along this path, there will be times when they need to be supported, and there are times they will need to be challenged.

I couldn't agree more, though I'll add that none of us are really qualified to distinguish between the two definitively given how little information we know about anyone here. Providing a range of views is a useful service we can provide as a community.


We shouldn't be the ones to dish out reality because our realities are always going to be biased.

It's no less true for any subject, but reality checks are still useful. Anyone who assumes that liberal family members are guaranteed to be accepting, or who thinks that a workplace policy prohibiting discrimination is any kind of guarantee, or that a weekend dressed is a reasonable approximation of living full-time needs a reality check. Yes, it can go completely overboard in the "your wife will leave you and you'll be unemployable" vein, but that's why getting multiple perspectives is useful.


I've heard both horrendous and wonderful stories of transitioning, some were full of hardships while others were smooth sailing. Somehow, the former is emphasized but the latter ignored.

To be fair, there's usually a lot more to say about the former than the latter. I have posted my share of positivity here and haven't been explicitly called out for it. No, it doesn't tend to lead to much conversation but there's often not much to say and certainly few cautionary tales that emerge. "Watch out! You might be just fine!" doesn't exactly rate as a headline.


It is the "don't transition unless you are faced with suicide or have absolutely no choice" mentality which generates so much negative views.

Yeah, I'm not a fan either and I've said as much from time to time. I think there's an inherent danger to letting that much pressure build up and acting under duress as a result. There has to be a better way of saying that what you gain is subtle and what you risk losing can be earth-shattering, so be really, really sure you know what you're doing. I suspect the transition or die meme emerged largely from historical treatment where that was essentially the magic phrase required to get medical treatment. That in turn may have reflected the cost / benefit picture given where western society was on trans issues. Things have indeed improved in recent decades albeit not uniformly. Unfortunately there's also some evident backlash attached which will hopefully be short-lived.


Why discredit others "who are not out"?

Putting someone's views in perspective relative to their lived experience can be helpful for observers. Consider watching a debate between scientists and politicians — wouldn't you like to know which is which and what their credentials are before weighing their relative arguments?

[Anne2345]

We might still get things wrong sometimes but at least our conscience will be clear.

My conscience is clear, thank you very much . . . .


Why discredit others "who are not out"?

Then why discredit anybody at all on any issue at all for that matter, right?? Why not instead just give everybody's opinions and stories equal weight, regardless of their experience, education, and background?? I mean seriously, just THINK about that for a moment, and see if you don't come to the same conclusion that the remainder of the rational and logical world has . . . .


If you assume that a 'hit of reality' is what everybody needs, then maybe you should read about the importance of having dreams and fantasies too.

Not sure what you mean by "dreams and fantasies," but NO ONE HERE is saying that there is no place for positive stories, feedback, and validation within this forum. NO ONE is saying that. And quite frankly, it gets tiresome reading all of the crap from members who feel compelled to spout that accusation out when things become perhaps a bit difficult. It's a ridiculous and unfounded accusation and argument, however, and one I suspect is tossed around because some folk would rather live within the matrix instead of outside it. I myself have submitted more than my fair share of positive posts, and I have commented many times in a very positive manner. That's true of every longtime and regular poster here. To say otherwise, in the face of the overwhelming evidence (don't take my word for it, go ahead and sift through past posts and OPs and check it out for yourself), is to live in la-la land.

The true value of experience is recognizing situations for what they are, and based upon that recognition being able to respond competently, wisely, and in a manner that has a foundation based in reality and results. If you want to throw that out the window and go barreling through a china shop blindfold, have at it. I'll not stop you or anyone else who chooses to do so . . . .


Challenging conversations or threads arguing the same thing about whose real or not?
It takes too much effort to caaaaare.

*takes grain of salt*

Wow. Just plain wow. Then why bother even coming here? Why not go somewhere else if you are so miserable and distrustful of folk here? Good people put much time and effort into composing and submitting posts and responses on a wide variety of topics and issues here. And they do this not for the glory or glamour - because there is none - rather, they do so because they CARE and they desire to help in any way they may be able. Many good people have helped me over the years here. They deserve better than scorn . . . .

[arbon]

Wow. Just plain wow. Then why bother even coming here? Why not go somewhere else if you are so miserable and distrustful of folk here? .........
They deserve better than scorn . . . .

So does she.
She was not being scornful to anyone.

[whowhatwhen]

Wow. Just plain wow. Then why bother even coming here? Why not go somewhere else if you are so miserable and distrustful of folk here? Good people put much time and effort into composing and submitting posts and responses on a wide variety of topics and issues here. And they do this not for the glory or glamour - because there is none - rather, they do so because they CARE and they desire to help in any way they may be able. Many good people have helped me over the years here. They deserve better than scorn . . . .

I like it here because there are resources here that help me, I'm just offering a different POV here and being roasted for it.
I've actually had people PM me and say they don't post in this section because of all the realness witchhunts.
No matter how far into transition they are or want to go people shouldn't feel scared to post here.

[Anne2345]

I'm just offering a different POV here and being roasted for it.

You are not being roasted for having a different POV. Instead, you are being called on the carpet for being rude, dismissive, and sarcastic within the body of this thread. There is a difference. A rather large difference, to be sure . . . .

[arbon]

I don't think she has been rude, dismissive or sarcastic. Why do you need to attack people like that? That IS what you are doing.

[whowhatwhen]

I am sorry for posting.

[whowhatwhen]

No room for differing opinions here I guess.

[arbon]

Sorry you feel that way Anne.

[Anne2345]

Sorry I feel this way? You obviously have no idea the way I feel.

But this is the internet, right? Take everything with a grain of salt, right? Don't really put any faith in anyone here, right? Don't care too much about any of this stuff, right? Just kinda blow it all off and wide paint a brush of apathy over it, right? Because none of us are real people. None of us are who we say we are. None of us give a shit about anything except making ourselves look better than everybody else on some tranny forum group, right? And none of this matters anyways, because the internet isn't real, you are a fraud, and I'm some 70 year old grandpa trying to stir up crap for no good reason other than I get to beat off knowing that I'm pissing y'all off.

All of this is nuts. It's crazy. It's just plain stupid how overly sensitive, how in denial, and how stubborn some folk around here are. Not to mention just how completely full of crap certain members are. Which really should come as no surprise, given this place is simply a cross-section of the general population at large. And as a general rule, people by and large suck.

I like to think, though, that in THIS place, given the challenges and crap WE have to go through as a collective group, that we could and would be better than this. Clearly, we are not. We suck just as much as everybody else in the world.

It's sad. It's depressing. It's entirely unnecessary.

It would be soooooo much easier if I didn't care about all of this junk, if I didn't take it seriously, regardless of the madness of my methods. But I do care. I care a great deal.

For whatever that is worth. Which apparently ain't that much. But again, this is the internet, nothing here is real, yada yada yada . . .

[whowhatwhen]

Once again I am sorry for having a difference of thought, I will try to keep my opinions more in line with yours in the future.

[Anne2345]

You think I'm still talking about you? Or that this was really about you in the first place?

Sigh.

Don't worry, though. I'm done. I'm finished. I'll leave the party and shut the door behind me on my way out . . . .

[Marcelle]

Hi Anne,

I guess I am one of those "middle pathers" (although Melissa believes I fail dismally at being a middle pather ;)) who water in this part of the forum from time to time. I try to stay away from threads which are clearly outside of my understanding but sometimes wish to participate in honest discussion and am prepared for any fallout which comes my way (32 years in the military tends to give on a thick skin). I also post here from time to time because I really don't fit in either forum but feel some of my questions are more relevant to this part of the forum than the CD side of the house. I certainly hope nobody feels I am disingenuous as I try to be respectful of what you all go through here. I am out fully including at work so I tend to understand some of the issues here when it comes to being accepted even though I have not committed to transition at present (still have this guy side of me which really wants to live). I appreciate the honest feedback I have receive here as I move forward and while the "you go girl" sentiments are nice, reality checks are in a way a breath of fresh air.

Will I ever transition? Right now I can say "no" although the pull can be quite hard and confusing from time to time. I spend a fair percentage of my time as a woman at work and in a military environment (Canadian) that is still a challenge to be taken seriously and garner respect . . . long battle but I do love a challenge. I am going to a major army training base at the end of the month (90% male, 10% female and 0% trans) to conduct training focus groups with combat arms individuals many of whom I have know (as a man) for 30 plus years . . . I informed them today it will be as a woman not a man.

So in a way the reality checks many here have proffered through various posts have helped me to understand that sometimes you just have to do what you need to do to survive and move forward. So always feel free to provide me with a hard slap of reality. But I do hope I am not coming off as a wannabe because all I truly want is to live my life as I need to in order to be happy and right now . . . very happy. Next week . . . who knows.

Cheers

Isha

[Frances]

Once again I am sorry for having a difference of thought, I will try to keep my opinions more in line with yours in the future.


I am sorry for having a different opinion than the majority, I will try to keep my opinions more in line with everyone else next time.

Do you realize how passive aggressive you are?

Say what you think or don't.

[arbon]

well that is the reason I never comment on anything you write Anne. To much drama.

[whowhatwhen]

Say what you think or don't.

e: nevermind

[sarahcsc]

Sara, there is a place for the desires of the heart (what I interpret from your "dreams and fantasies".). I doubt this is the place to indulge that (if you'll excuse the term). My guess is that the forum would quickly be overwhelmed with posers to the point of being completely unusable.


There is a place called "youtube" where people upload detailed descriptions of their dreams and fantasies. It attracts other people with similiar dreams and fantasies which expands on the original idea. Youtube is still very usable as far as I know and people have gone on to realize their dreams.

But you raised a good point.

What is the purpose of this forum then? Is it to slap people in the face with a hit of reality? Or is it to nurture one's dreams and fantasies so that they may one day take the leap?

Maybe this entire forum should just be divided into TWO sections, "reality" and "fantasy". :)


But say we did. Ask yourself what kind of dreams and fantasies have you seen presented here? How often have they had any correlation to real life, been substituting for action, or present other conflicts? You can answer that for yourself.

Dreams and fantasies, in its strictest sense, should not have any correlation with real life.

The question is, do you allow that here in the forum?

I can't say this on behalf of everybody, but everything that I am today in real life, is one way or another related to my fantasies.

Okay, so I'm not the first officer of the USS Enterprise, neither am I Vulcan or Betazoid, but I've spent a great deal of my time travelling and exploring places others would never dream to go and my job consists of being empathetic and logical at the same. Do you understand this analogy?


I went to a hair transplant surgeon today for a consult. This is a HUGE issue for me. I didn't get the answers I expected on several topics. I was told quite directly what my best options were and why. He might have indulged my fantasies (desires?) for other answers, but what would that have served? It would have set me up for a worse disappointment later, as well as additional expense.

Your surgeon tells you both sides of the story, that is, "hair transplant could restore some of your hair", but the "hair restored is most likely to be modest and it could potentially fail".

This is merely a fact he tells you, you decide if that panders to your fantasies or not. If you chose to focus on the fact that it could "restore your hair", then you are pandering to your fantasies. If you chose to focus on the fact that the "hair restored is modest and could potentially fail", then you are pandering to your need for reality.

It has nothing to do with the surgeon if he was indulging your fantasies or not. People do that for themselves.

Love,
S

[Zooey]

Holy crap, ladies... I'm all for real talk - it's a large part of why I like the people in this forum - but there comes a point in any heated dialogue where you're just stuck in a feedback loop of ever-increasing vitriol and rage, and it's time to walk away, breathe, and simmer down for a bit.

I'm becoming convinced that a slightly different division of forums would be helpful here, or at least a restatement of purpose for the existing ones. I am firmly of the opinion that the "real talk" surrounding full-time transition is hugely valuable, and entirely necessary - it's a big part of why I value this forum.

I'm not suggesting what the name should be, but I think there needs to be a forum in the Safe Haven for people who are specifically in the midst of, have completed, or are planning on undertaking a full-time transition. Alternatively, there could be a non-transitioning forum. Or, the public TS forum could be redeclared as the place for the "wider variety of experiences" discussions, and the Safe Haven could be restricted to those pursuing full-time transition. I don't care what the configuration looks like, but if (as I and others believe) there are specific realities associated with being full-time that need frank discussion, then we need a place to discuss those things without people complaining about feeling marginalized. Similarly, the people undergoing different sorts of transitions that may not result in full-time need a place to discuss their issues without feeling marginalized. The system is not doing any favors for either group as it stands right now, at least lately.

[emma5410]

Holy crap, ladies... I'm all for real talk - it's a large part of why I like the people in this forum - but there comes a point in any heated dialogue where you're just stuck in a feedback loop of ever-increasing vitriol and rage, and it's time to walk away, breathe, and simmer down for a bit.

I'm becoming convinced that a slightly different division of forums would be helpful here, or at least a restatement of purpose for the existing ones. I am firmly of the opinion that the "real talk" surrounding full-time transition is hugely valuable, and entirely necessary - it's a big part of why I value this forum.

I'm not suggesting what the name should be, but I think there needs to be a forum in the Safe Haven for people who are specifically in the midst of, have completed, or are planning on undertaking a full-time transition. Alternatively, there could be a non-transitioning forum. Or, the public TS forum could be redeclared as the place for the "wider variety of experiences" discussions, and the Safe Haven could be restricted to those pursuing full-time transition. I don't care what the configuration looks like, but if (as I and others believe) there are specific realities associated with being full-time that need frank discussion, then we need a place to discuss those things without people complaining about feeling marginalized. Similarly, the people undergoing different sorts of transitions that may not result in full-time need a place to discuss their issues without feeling marginalized. The system is not doing any favors for either group as it stands right now, at least lately.

I would have thought that the answer was simple. If you are so sensitive that you cannot stand anybody disagreeing with you then you just do not post on those threads. Why have separate boards. Why move discussions about being full time to a restricted area so newbies cannot see them leaving them relying on part timers.

The way some people write it would seem that Anne has the ability to stop them posting. She is expressing an opinion. One I sometimes I agree with and sometimes don't. It does not stop anyone else expressing their opinion. Or are we back to the attitude that you can challenge what someone says but if someone challenges something you say they are bullying you?

I know that HRT makes you go through a second puberty but that does not mean people have to act like over sensitive teenagers. We are all adults here (or maybe not).

[stefan37]

The forum is divided into fantasy and reality. There is the Crossdresser sub forum and the Transsexual sub forum.

We should feed into people's fantasy is they are considering transition. Advocate for full transition at the fastest speed possible. NOT. Sorry those needing to transition need to know it's not a walk in the park. Transition is F****ing hard. It's real. It's expensive. The potential for losses are great. Very, very few suffer no or minimal loss. So yeah we should encourage and support unrealistic and fantastical ideas.

We all have different experiences. They all have value if they are experienced and lived. I made a comment in another thread. I'm finding the 2nd year more difficult than the first and I had the benefit of FFS in the second. The first I thought was fairly easy even without the benefit of FFS. Others have said the first year was harder than the second. Different experiences, but valid because they are lived experiences.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I like it here because there are resources here that help me, I'm just offering a different POV here and being roasted for it.
I've actually had people PM me and say they don't post in this section because of all the realness witchhunts.
No matter how far into transition they are or want to go people shouldn't feel scared to post here.

You don't offer a different point of view.

[Trinity Sue]

Seems to be the way here now! There are a certain few who have to give their opinion on everything. I guess they just want their post numbers to go up. Kinda why I have giving up on this forum.. Oh don't forget to spell check me and point out my flaws !!! I came here for support and advice and possible meet new friends. So much for that . but who am I to say anything .

[whowhatwhen]

You don't offer a different point of view.

Pretty sure I did when I said some people are afraid to post here, but it's totally okay and fine.

[Rianna Humble]

Seems to be the way here now! There are a certain few who have to give their opinion on everything. I guess they just want their post numbers to go up. Kinda why I have giving up on this forum.. Oh don't forget to spell check me and point out my flaws !!! I came here for support and advice and possible meet new friends. So much for that . but who am I to say anything .

Actually, you have never asked for any kind of support or advice in the TS forums. As for people here spell checking you - their posts would not be allowed to stand and if they persisted, they would soon find themselves in trouble.

Your one and only other post in this forum was informational and was greeted as such.

[PretzelGirl]

<walks in a peeks around>

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=249874&stc=1

[Zooey]

I know that HRT makes you go through a second puberty but that does not mean people have to act like over sensitive teenagers. We are all adults here (or maybe not).

For what it's worth, I agree with everything you said in principle. If we were all adults here though, this thread wouldn't be in the state it's in. :p

[PaulaQ]

A modest suggestion, if I may. Please try to look outside of yourselves and your own lives a bit. Some of you do this, but quite a few don't really seem to do so.

So we're really arguing over whether or not it's OK to call out people as fakes based on their posts here? Really?

Is this the biggest problem we are all facing? Potentially delusional people on a forum?

Or are we arguing for the tough "love" approach because, gosh darn it, the world is becoming a (tiny bit) more accepting of us, and we can't risk someone getting through the gauntlet and taking less BS than we took?

Or is this just for the cis spouses, who are probably going to get a divorce anyway, because it's all fun and games until someone starts on hormones?

None of these seem like real problems to me. (Sure, divorce, discrimination, etc. are very real problems. The great trans-fakers and regretters? Um, OK.)

The "American Horror Story: Asylum" style mental health care available for trans patients in the local psychiatric hospital here, or the new trans health clinic that only supports trans people who are HIV+, or homeless (everyone else, better hope your 30 hour per week minimum wage job no health insurance benefit job leaves you enough at the end of the month to fill your prescription) - those seem like real problems.

By the way, the two of those problems together are, of course, extra-super-awesome. Imagine working your crappy job, sinking into gender dysphoria, attempting suicide, and then getting stuck, for weeks, in a psychiatric hospital that misgenders you and makes your problem WORSE, thus prompting an even longer stay in the hospital. Because while Texas will fight tooth and nail against paying money to make one of us better, it'll gladly spend tax payer dollars to make one of us worse.

In fact - those are EXACTLY examples of real problems out where I live. I dunno, Texas is a hell-hole, I'll be the first to admit that, and maybe people transitioning by mistake are the biggest problem out y'all's way.

But I bet if you go outside and play with others, you can find some bigger problems than the ones being discussed in this thread.

I personally observed the following problems of members of my local community just this evening:
1. Trans women suffering from autism
2. Trans woman of color who suffers from bipolar / schizoaffective disorder
3. Homeless trans woman of color who lost it all thanks to Meth. She'd been in and out of transition for years.

I could go on - but you get the idea. Maybe "tough love" would've saved all these women from the horrible situations they face. I mean, I thought about telling them the cold hard truth "you probably shouldn't have transitioned unless you are fairly well off, white, and abled." But call me crazy - I did the following instead:
1. Talked to the autistic woman about the therapy program I'd helped her enroll in
2. Took the schizoaffective disorder girl back to a more quiet room, where she could gather her thoughts, and actually hold a conversation with me. I ended up finding her a ride home, which I bought the gas for, because she was too freaked out by all the excitement in the meeting to figure out the bus schedule.
3. Put the homeless woman in touch with a member who works for one of the homeless agencies in the area. No dice for tonight, but we'll try to find SOMETHING for her. (Yeah, I had nothing for this one. Sucks - homelessness here is a really nasty problem.)

I also gave a new girl a set of breast forms and a bra, because she had NOTHING, and me and my fellow committee members gave away a year of free HRT to three people, two legal name and gender marker changes, some binders and a wig, and, oh yeah, top surgery to two deserving trans people, one dude, one chick. (No, I'm not kidding about this stuff, me and several others worked all year to make this happen - we've helped out about 20 people in this way - not nearly enough, but it has used up essentially all the money we've been able to raise, and most of the service donations we've been able to beg.)

I point out all the above not to say "oh look, I'm so awesome" because I'm FAAAAR from awesome. I fail people. I fail them a lot.

But I do at least go out once in a while and look for real problems. And every once in a while, with the help of others, a solution comes up. Sometimes it even helps. Go figure.

Oh, and lest you think the stuff I do out in the real world is irrelevant to this discussion, I've helped quite a few people I've met here. Yep. Met one of them in person and talked to her on Sunday, in fact.

Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to call and check on a suicidal trans woman I know.

P.S. Homeless girl found her way over to my condo, so apparently I'll continue to deal with her, too.

[stefan37]

Paula you bring up 3 examples that are not exclusive to Trans individuals. There are far more Cis individuals as a percentage that suffer from the conditions you just described. I will agree that having GD can complicate those issues.

Hell, since terms are so unimportant. I should never have started facial hair removal. I should not have come out to anybody especially family and work. Should never have changed my legal name. I could have saved a ton of money on electrolysis, and FFS.

I would declare to the world. I'm a woman. Accept me as one. Life would have surely been a lot easier. I would still be married. I would still have a healthy bank account.

Come on this is the TS forum. We should have least be able to agree on authenticity. No? Full time should mean full time. Out to all. Out at work ( or unfortunately unemployed at work because you are authentic). Legal name change. (Yes there may be some that have difficulty or no money. But if you don't change your name. Don't complain you aren't treated as female. ).
You can argue all you want here how unfair it is. The reality is how does society deal with it. In a perfect world. The Cis population would be supportive, accepting and heat us with open arms. But they don't. They think we are mentally ill. They respond with ridicule, hatred and violence. We are lower than the low.

On this forum we don't usually hear from those that are disadvantaged. I know a girl has been whining about the treatment she gets from medical practitioners. She whines about people addressing her with her male name. Well guess what her name is still legally male. She has all kinds of excuses. She won't be able to collect her inheritance. She doesn't have the money. It's too expensive. And the list goes on. In NJ it costs $250 for the court and 100 bucks for the newspaper affidavits. Add in another 100 bucks for the NJ Treasury and other misc. Yes that can be an obstacle. But after 3 years. No excuse. You can collect aluminum cans to scrap to raise that amount of cash. Many want the easy way and don't want to work for it.
I have a Cis female friend that is unemployed, her home is in foreclosure. She has no money, no idea where she is going to live in 2 weeks after she is evicted. She doesn't suffer GD. But her life is no less easier because she doesn't suffer GD.

You can't blame all your life troubles on GD. Transition cures one thing and one thing only. Your GD. If your are unemployed before, you will still be unemployed after. If you have an affinity to abuse drugs or alcohol, that will be there after transition. If you are Autistic before transition. You will be Autistic after. The list goes on. Life goes on. You still have to deal with life after transition. My experience "full time" transition introduces additional stressors that may not have been present prior. If you can't handle life prior to transition. The odds you can handle life stressors any better after Transition are slim to none.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Pretty sure I did when I said some people are afraid to post here, but it's totally okay and fine.

Some people are afraid to post here. WHo would disagree with that?? I wish they wouldnt but so be it..

thats not a different opinion
i wonder if you understand the meaning of the word opinion...

...what you do is try to tweak members with petty little passive/aggressive comments..you did a good job of it on this thread

---

and Paula you are projecting big time... discussions over authenticity are and mental asylums are far far apart..
i'm sorry to say the issues you are facing in your corner of the world are outside the scope of a forum like this sometimes...

and i find it pretty presumptive of you that you assume those three things you did are not done by others outside of the scope of this forum

i have easily spoke to thousands of physician assistant students, i have volunteered at the local trans center where homeless and young TG folk spend time, i have donated money and written letters and helped people get their name changed without paying a lawyer..

[mechamoose]

This is one of the safest places you are ever going to find, sweetie. We support each other. We share experiences, successes and failures. If someone challenges you, then that is the basis for questions... we all have our own headspace and our own situations. None of them invalidate yours.

- MM

[Anne2345]

So we're really arguing over whether or not it's OK to call out people as fakes based on their posts here? Really?


No, Paula. You got it completely wrong. That's not what the OP is about at all. Not even one bit.

Impressive job patting yourself on the back, though. :D

And yeah, what Madame Moose said!!

[Badtranny]

This is one of the safest places you are ever going to find, sweetie.

Absolutely.

A gender transition requires a resolve that doesn't exist in someone who can't overcome the fear of an internet forum, especially one as heavily moderated as this one.
Some people tend to mistake being treated with respect for being treated as an authority figure, and when you don't accept their authority, they complain that they're not being respected.

[LeaP]

Paula, the problem of the fantasy driven (among others) transitioning isn't that it's a big problem in the big 'ol real world. That's a self-limiting problem with a few high-profile exceptions. The FORUM problem is the noise it introduces in the perspective and advice given to actual transsexuals and people actually transitioning.

Well-expressed re authority and respect, Misty. I like the formulation.

There is a special problem with transsexualim when it comes to authority. That is, the most knowledgeable people on the topic are transsexuals, most of whom are not researchers! The average doctor has little to no real perspective, never mind training on the topic. When they do, it's narrow (endo, surgeon, therapist, whatever). And even they are often not current. When the very best (and I really mean exactly that) you can muster is a bunch of armchair experts, recognize that the only way they got there, at any level, isn't just because they are well-read. It's because being pushed HARD by challenges is needed to make-up for lack of holistic perspective that long and rigorous training yields. It's a poor substitute that leaves loose ends and holes everywhere, but that's what we have. Expect challenge and refutation. Welcome it.

[arbon]

Then why violate your own rule by responding to what I've written now?? Why put yourself through all the hassle?? Why lower yourself by coming all the way down from your mountaintop to address me among the other dregs of society swimming around in all the muck??

Too much drama for your delicate sensibilities, huh? Please forgive my existence for polluting the very air you would breathe.

Why don't you do us both a favor and continue ignoring me as you usually do . . . .

Do I owe you any favors? I don't think so. I never said it was a rule either and I will respond to what wish when it suits me.
I try to be respectful to others here, I was to you too. You have obviously been very offended though and are angry at me for it. Hope you are able to get over it.
Funny how some of the challengers are not so good at being challenged even just a little.

Thanks for the PM by the way. It was very sweet ;-) Do you send others that you don't agree with those types of messages too or am I just that special to you?
(Am I being passive aggressive?)

[LeaP]

...

What is the purpose of this forum then? Is it to slap people in the face with a hit of reality? Or is it to nurture one's dreams and fantasies so that they may one day take the leap?

...

Okay, so I'm not the first officer of the USS Enterprise, neither am I Vulcan or Betazoid, but I've spent a great deal of my time travelling and exploring places others would never dream to go and my job consists of being empathetic and logical at the same. Do you understand this analogy?

Your surgeon tells you both sides of the story, that is, "hair transplant could restore some of your hair", but the "hair restored is most likely to be modest and it could potentially fail".

This is merely a fact he tells you, you decide if that panders to your fantasies or not. If you chose to focus on the fact that it could "restore your hair", then you are pandering to your fantasies. If you chose to focus on the fact that the "hair restored is modest and could potentially fail", then you are pandering to your need for reality.

It has nothing to do with the surgeon if he was indulging your fantasies or not. People do that for themselves.

I think we are discussing different aspects of dreams/fantasy. One is unrealized - yet realistic - possibility. This serves as an important internal driver, even when it FEELS unrealistic or unachievable. The other is escapism. It doesn't drive toward solutions, it drives away from them. There is a place for that in life, too, but not here, IMO.

I do understand your point on logic and empathy. It is a balance for which I strive but don't seem to hit often enough. My need to be rigorous and exhaustive produces writing that is perceived as aggressive and intimidating, unfortunately.

As far as the forum's purpose, it is nominally support and on transsexual topics only. The need, from a support perspective, isn't coaxing people from dream to realization because the problem that typically presents is confusion. Fantasy interjects primarily in the form of unrealistic, escapist scenarios when it comes from these people. Its continuance is enabled when people feed it.

So what about the realization of real things, then? Support for this happens ALL THE TIME HERE. Why doesn't anyone recognize this? It may be as gentle as encouraging someone to go out, to experiment. It can be experiential when people recount how they got around their fears. It can be consoling and forgiving when it comes to failures and backsteps. But it doesn't happen until a measure of clarity and need has emerged, nor should it. To encourage someone down that path before they are ready is dangerous and destructive.

As I recall, you are a doctor. If so, I hope you won't be offended by this, but giving medical advice, whether presented in factual form or not, is never a mere presentment of facts. In any event, I didn't say he pandered ... I (effectively) said he did not. Your self-indulgence (better than "pandering" I think) point is valid and that does happen regularly in the forum.

[DebbieL]

This site is a great site for people who are transgender and struggling with where they fit on the scale. I too first came to the site because it was a cross-dresser site and I didn't know if I would ever be able to transition. I had tried a few times, and was forced to abort or face some consequences I wasn't willing to accept at the time. I just wanted to be able to meet and discuss with other people like me.

When I joined the transsexual forum, I had still been living in my birth gender, and was struggling bitterly over it. I'd already had two heart attacks and a stroke because I had stopped caring about everything. I didn't care that my weight was out of control, I didn't care that my health was bad, I didn't care that I was alone, locked in my "iron mask" trying to avoid any real conversation about my by maintaining a barrage of diversions and isolation tactics. My wife knew I was transgender and accepted me as a cross-dresser and non-transitioning transgender person.

I had established feminine accounts for myself as Debbie, and began to realize how much better and happier I was as Debbie.
When my dad told me "Be yourself, even if that means being Debbie", it triggered something. I started paying more attention to the transsexual group, I began to watch as others shared their experiences at various stages of their journey. I had actually been considering suicide prior to joining this group. At one point, I had even mixed a "Prestone Cocktail". I realized that if I was willing to drink that, I was willing to give up whatever was necessary to be happy in this life. This group made it a real possibility that I could transition, and I wanted to so badly it was literally killing me.

I really need to thank everyone in this group for all of the inspiration and support that you have shared with me and with each other. I have tried to share some of my experiences to help others.

This group understands where we are and where we are going as only others who have "been there" could know.

[ErikaS]

I just want to chirp in by saying I am just starting my journey and there times I'm still not sure what to do. But I was willing to step in front of a bus. I had reached the point to me something has to change. I look to you all wonderful girls for guidance and stories support the can make some sense. I don't know how this is going to play out I only want to fit in. I also know I'll never pass but who caries. I'm still in the army reserve for 5-7 more years so fear and omg what my fellow Soldiers are going to think. I have hope of the change is coming to make it better.

Erika

[mechamoose]

Those of you on the 'transition' path have my utmost respect. Changing your identity is no small thing. I will stand up for any of you to make it a safer place.

I hate bigots...

- MM

[arbon]

I also know I'll never pass but who caries. I'm still in the army reserve for 5-7 more years so fear and omg what my fellow Soldiers are going to think. I have hope of the change is coming to make it better.

Erika

You may care a lot down the road. That environment is probably going to be more challenging than most, or maybe not you never can tell. FFS can do a lot for a woman though.

[Carlene]

In a word, NO, there is never justification for attacking. As for challenging, there are methods by which this can be done in a gentle and caring way.

I have watched you grow for a few years now Anne, and I hold you in high regard, a role model in many ways. Are there things you have said and done that lessened your value in the moment? Of course there were, but you were under tremendous pressure from both within and externally. No Anne, you did not deserve to be attacked!

It is my belief that the best coaches, mentors, teachers, etc., do not employ attacking or belittling tactics, and they are very skilled in the way in which they challenge.

Just my thoughts, Carlene.

[LucyNewport]

Like Erika, I'm just starting out on this crazy journey. (Actually I'm a little behind as I'm not even starting the medical stuff for another couple seasons in case I chicken out.) There is so much that I don't know, and I'm sure I will ask some pretty dumb questions along the way. If I say anything that shows my rank ignorance though I'd expect to get called on it. That's really the only way to learn, right?

Y'all ladies can be a bit intense, but I get the feeling its coming from a place of love.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I just want to chirp in by saying I am just starting my journey and there times I'm still not sure what to do. But I was willing to step in front of a bus. I had reached the point to me something has to change. I look to you all wonderful girls for guidance and stories support the can make some sense. I don't know how this is going to play out I only want to fit in. I also know I'll never pass but who caries. I'm still in the army reserve for 5-7 more years so fear and omg what my fellow Soldiers are going to think. I have hope of the change is coming to make it better.

Erika

ok here goes..

you mentioned being a trans ambassador in another thread
turn it down a notch... you don't have to fly into the sun to make your life better..
you don't have to be super tranny to help people..

what you want to do is brutal and intense...it will lay you bare and challenge everyone around you...

i like your positive energy and hope for change..

i think maybe you should set your goals a bit lower...your goal should be to survive and thrive...and then you will find out who you are...then you will find out what transition actually is and what the daily grind is really like..

what are your next steps for yourself...what are you specifically doing right now to make this happen for you??? that's where your focus needs to be.

and stay away from buses!!!

[Jorja]

Where is the Like button? Kaitlyn, that is the best piece of advice I think I have seen on this forum. Bravo!!!

[Frances]

We should create an alternative Hall of Justice with Supertranny, Superfluous, Superabundant and Supercilious!

[sarahcsc]

There is a special problem with transsexualim when it comes to authority. That is, the most knowledgeable people on the topic are transsexuals, most of whom are not researchers! The average doctor has little to no real perspective, never mind training on the topic. When they do, it's narrow (endo, surgeon, therapist, whatever). And even they are often not current. When the very best (and I really mean exactly that) you can muster is a bunch of armchair experts, recognize that the only way they got there, at any level, isn't just because they are well-read. It's because being pushed HARD by challenges is needed to make-up for lack of holistic perspective that long and rigorous training yields. It's a poor substitute that leaves loose ends and holes everywhere, but that's what we have. Expect challenge and refutation. Welcome it.

This is definitely something for me to contribute! (although I think it is way off the OP...)

Sadly, I agree with your appraisal that authorities in this matter are not very knowledgeable on this topic. But that begs the question, how knowledgeable should one become before one is deemed knowledgeable? Experts in schizophrenia often admit that there is still a lot they don't know despite a century of research.

I read a lot of the medical/psychiatric literature around this topic, along with autobiographies, sources from this forum (ie. Anne Vitale), and speak with some experts in my area who deals primarily in gender dysphoric individuals, I've even been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and I still feel like I don't know enough.

Awhile ago, I was accused by one of my patients who has gender dysphoria of not understanding her. I just nodded and remained silent. She probably interpreted that as "me not understanding her too."

I agree that one's internal world is forever exclusive. Nobody can understand anybody completely except to come to an approximation.

But that begs the second question, how well should we know each other to be of help?

The endocrinologist may know little about gender dysphoria, but he helps with HRT. The surgeon may know nothing about HRT, but he performs the surgery. The therapist may have no medical knowledge, but he helps us explore our sexuality and come to terms with GD. Each of them have a very narrow understanding of GD but you need them all in order to transition smoothly. Are they not helping then?


I think we are discussing different aspects of dreams/fantasy. One is unrealized - yet realistic - possibility. This serves as an important internal driver, even when it FEELS unrealistic or unachievable. The other is escapism. It doesn't drive toward solutions, it drives away from them. There is a place for that in life, too, but not here, IMO.

I do understand your point on logic and empathy. It is a balance for which I strive but don't seem to hit often enough. My need to be rigorous and exhaustive produces writing that is perceived as aggressive and intimidating, unfortunately.

As far as the forum's purpose, it is nominally support and on transsexual topics only. The need, from a support perspective, isn't coaxing people from dream to realization because the problem that typically presents is confusion. Fantasy interjects primarily in the form of unrealistic, escapist scenarios when it comes from these people. Its continuance is enabled when people feed it.

So what about the realization of real things, then? Support for this happens ALL THE TIME HERE. Why doesn't anyone recognize this? It may be as gentle as encouraging someone to go out, to experiment. It can be experiential when people recount how they got around their fears. It can be consoling and forgiving when it comes to failures and backsteps. But it doesn't happen until a measure of clarity and need has emerged, nor should it. To encourage someone down that path before they are ready is dangerous and destructive.

As I recall, you are a doctor. If so, I hope you won't be offended by this, but giving medical advice, whether presented in factual form or not, is never a mere presentment of facts. In any event, I didn't say he pandered ... I (effectively) said he did not. Your self-indulgence (better than "pandering" I think) point is valid and that does happen regularly in the forum.

I think you put matters well and I agree with you regarding the dreams/fantasy topic, the support perspective, and the realization of real things.

I am not offended by anything. :)

I like your concept of 'confusion' which some people present with. The question is, who decides if they are 'confused'?

Do we decide if a person is confused if they present with an idea which seems unrealistic according to our standards?

Do we then attempt to re-orientate them to reality by challenging them? Are we assuming ourselves to be the ultimate authority in this matter?

I guess we can exert ourselves as the 'authority' in this matter but bear this in mind, we are not surgeons, endocrinologists, or therapists.

We are not trained to evaluate the suitability of surgery the way a surgeon can, or the safety of taking HRT, or the psychological conflicts at play.

We cannot perform surgery, prescribe HRT, or engage in therapy with others.

All we have, is a set of experience unique to ourselves which cannot be generalized because everybody's experience is different.

If you argue that the surgeon, endocrinologist, and therapist have a narrow understanding of GD, which I agree, then how narrow is our understanding of GD except when it pertains to ourselves?

I would argue that unless you are a SRS surgeon, a TS endocrinologist, a gender therapist, and an individual with GD, you can't claim yourself to be the 'authority' in this matter. Right?

Just trying to gain some perspective here.

Love,
S

[Kaitlyn Michele]

.... But that begs the question, how knowledgeable should one become before one is deemed knowledgeable? ....

....., I've even been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and I still feel like I don't know enough.

Awhile ago, I was accused by one of my patients who has gender dysphoria of not understanding her. I just nodded and remained silent. She probably interpreted that as "me not understanding her too."

Nobody can understand anybody completely except to come to an approximation. ...............

But that begs the second question, how well should we know each other to be of help?

...........I like your concept of 'confusion' which some people present with. The question is, who decides if they are 'confused'?

Do we decide if a person is confused if they present with an idea which seems unrealistic according to our standards?

Do we then attempt to re-orientate them to reality by challenging them? Are we assuming ourselves to be the ultimate authority in this matter?

All we have, is a set of experience unique to ourselves which cannot be generalized because everybody's experience is different.

If you argue that the surgeon, endocrinologist, and therapist have a narrow understanding of GD, which I agree, then how narrow is our understanding of GD except when it pertains to ourselves?

I would argue that unless you are a SRS surgeon, a TS endocrinologist, a gender therapist, and an individual with GD, you can't claim yourself to be the 'authority' in this matter. Right?

Just trying to gain some perspective here.

Love,
S

...you are aiming for something that is impractical

Most of us know plenty... and although we don't always know medically, we deal in a practical and pragmatic reality..

Does somebody want my advice?? I really can't worry about that

The more time you spend pondering the imponderable and searching for unknowable things, the more time you waste..

surely over time there will be more research, we can know more next year than last, but its 2015

If you have gender dysphoria, what are you gonna do about it??
that's the battle..

and we know that transition beats GD, we know that people can mitigate even without transition but it won't go away... we know the world dehumanizes and marginalizes us...
we know many many success and failure anecdotes about transition and frankly i think we know enough to give good solid PRACTICAL REAL LIFE advice...

I realize we are all different, we all focus on different things...i am nothing if not pragmatic... i had srs surgery and all i knew was to stop my hormones and pick a good doctor...i focused on beating GD to help overcome my shame and internal transphobia...

others will look at every detail of the procedure but there are bottom line things in life...some will get so caught up in this that they sputter and suffer

there are also risks...i wish it were different... transition carries many risks

....however i think one of the most misunderstood risks is to NOT TRANSITION... i say this because of how many people hit 50 60 70 and get slammed by their next level of dysphoria... the inability to predict whether this happens and the inablity to take a blood test for it (i wish we could) means that the PERSON HERSELF HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY to themselves to figure out where to go and what to do...

what is the 50 year old extreme GD suffering going to tell her wife after 10 years of saying i love you so much i am not going to transition?? the 60 year old after 20 years of fight fight fight...ask Caitlyn Jenner...

[stefan37]

You pull the pin and get divorced in most cases. I only see accepting supportive wives in this forum. I have seen no experience of wives staying with their transitioned husband's in my area. There was a woman in my support group that stayed married for 3 years post-op, but divorced last Feb.

[LeaP]

..., how knowledgeable should one become before one is deemed knowledgeable?
...
But that begs the second question, how well should we know each other to be of help?

...Are they not helping then?
...
The question is, who decides if they are 'confused'?

Do we decide if a person is confused if they present with an idea which seems unrealistic according to our standards?

I guess we can exert ourselves as the 'authority' in this matter but bear this in mind, we are not surgeons, endocrinologists, or therapists.

We are not trained to evaluate the suitability of surgery the way a surgeon can, or the safety of taking HRT, or the psychological conflicts at play.

We cannot perform surgery, prescribe HRT, or engage in therapy with others.

All we have, is a set of experience unique to ourselves which cannot be generalized because everybody's experience is different.

If you argue that the surgeon, endocrinologist, and therapist have a narrow understanding of GD, which I agree, then how narrow is our understanding of GD except when it pertains to ourselves?

I would argue that unless you are a SRS surgeon, a TS endocrinologist, a gender therapist, and an individual with GD, you can't claim yourself to be the 'authority' in this matter. Right?


In a self-help community, people share what they "know", have read, think, etc. When people draw conclusions across thinly populated knowledge areas, it gets dicey. That's why experience weighs so heavily. This is very unlike a single topic in which one has been deeply trained. That, in turn, bears on your questions about SRS surgeons and others. People like that will typically have expertise which the layperson cannot touch. It is too narrow for us, however. I doubt that the cis perspective of the average SRS surgeon is of much help when it comes to whether an individual should pursue SRS, what it will do in their particular case to relieve dysphoria.

The point on people presenting confused is much more straightforward. They tend to say it outright! Do a search on thread titles! I wasn't talking about judging people as confused. I was talking about taking them at face value.

[Eryn]

I've heard both horrendous and wonderful stories of transitioning, some were full of hardships while others were smooth sailing. Somehow, the former is emphasized but the latter ignored.

For those lucky people who fall into the latter group, participation here is definitely difficult. A member describing their smooth experience will bring out those who had more difficult experiences, eager to "set the record straight" and "keep it real."


It is the "don't transition unless you are faced with suicide or have absolutely no choice" mentality which generates so much negative views.

And the "you don't know what you're talking about unless you've gone through what I've gone through" mentality that creates the divide.

Very true. Rather than try to make things as easy as possible for others who follow, the emphasis is almost on making sure that everyone has faced the same trials. Why should one have to descend into the pit all the way to attempting suicide before doing the things that will help us? Divorce, while common, isn't inevitable and it is harmful to those honoring their commitments to say that it is.


Also, people who holds these mentalities are often the most vocal group as well.

That's for sure. When I originally brought up the subject of attacking other members I didn't mention anyone by name, but who were the most vehement responders?

My father liked a saying that I later found was first said by Eleanor Roosevelt:

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Discussions about people tend to have the word "you" in them quite often. While the word cannot be avoided entirely, in civil conversation it is best to limit it as much as possible.

[stefan37]

The reason smooth sailers are challenged were the ones that turned out to be fake. How would you suggest we make it easier for those contemplating of undergoing transition. Telling those individuals what a bed of roses it is to live their life authentically. The harsh brutal truth is uprooting your life and family can and sitters result in since serious life challenges. It is not like dressing for the weekend.

My transition has been relatively easy. I was ridiculed, but never assaulted, verbally or physically. I am employed. I continue to own and run my own multi million dollar Electrical/ Mechanical business. I have lost very few friends and have made tons of new ones. My parents, siblings and children accept and still love me. I am divorced, but we get along and work daily as she is part owner of our business.
That said. It has been very difficult. It has been expensive. The first year full was easy. Living as a tranny is so much easier than integrating and living as female. My 2 nd year full-time has been more difficult which I will detail in more detail in another thread. There are other members here whose transitions border on fairy tale. I don't see them getting set straight. They are doing the hard work. Their circumstances allow for a smoother transition.

I will still disagree that your opinion of what it is like to transition is much value about what to expect unless you are actively or have transitioned. You can experience segments of transition and kinda get a feel. But until you go full-time all the time. You can't know.
That concept of experience holds true for anything in life. You can read about open heart surgery, procedures, complications etc. But you can't know how you will react until you do it.

[Rianna Humble]

I've heard both horrendous and wonderful stories of transitioning, some were full of hardships while others were smooth sailing. Somehow, the former is emphasized but the latter ignored

I don't know what forums you've been reading, but they are not on this site...


It is the "don't transition unless you are faced with suicide or have absolutely no choice" mentality which generates so much negative views.

Or to be more precise it is exactly this kind of deliberate misrepresentation of what is written that causes the problems.

[Rachel Smith]

My experience with this site. I was welcomed. I ask for advice and received it. Sometimes I liked it sometimes I didn't. What I didn't do was confront with hostility and I received none in return. I still like it here but mostly just as an observer. I will post occasionally but mostly only do so in my journal now.

Edit here
Just was wondering. Does anyone here think that perhaps the reason some of us have an easier time of it is because of those that went before? Many come here for help and guidance and it may be/have been you and your knowledge and resources that help someone else avoid some of the pitfalls. To those that helped me THANK YOU!!

[Frances]

When I originally brought up the subject of attacking other members I didn't mention anyone by name, but who were the most vehement responders?

Post-transition forumites.

[PretzelGirl]

Well, I was going to sit back and read as I tend to stay out of the more contentious threads, but lets see what I can add on where some of this is going.

As I have probably said far too many times, my transition was great. I am out some money and time and that is it. So how have I felt about the general feel here as a person with a "good" story?

First, there were some different people here when I first started reading the Transexual Forum to gather my thoughts then there are now. One was a particular pain in my nether regions and I don't miss her. Way too full of herself. I am here to say that she absolutely propogated the sense that anyone not as far along as her was beneath her. So I certainly took in comments back then that I thought were seriously in the "you can not possibly understand my experience you little turd". When we had the last major exodus, the ones that were like that left and that was before I had announced my transitioning.

During the start of my transition, I did feel that the sense was that you had to be where you could not continue in order to reach the point of transitioning. It was embedded in my mind I know this for sure because it was what was on my mind during therapy sessions and caused me the most trepidations, not real experiences. And it also was what worked on me post transition as I kept wondering when the hammer was going to fall. I am not saying that was a direct line said to me, but the composite input of all threads left me with that takeaway. Rianna was the first to jump in and say that I didn't need to feel that way and my path was valid. Then Kelly. Then others. Those comments helped settle my mind some, but the general thought remained with me. So my sense then was that the outward appearance was that you had to be at the breaking point, but the hearts of everyone wasn't so rigid. My guess then is that those who hadn't yet transitioned, just weren't seeing the other perspective as it was probably not a topic far too often.

Through my transition, the support was great and informative, There would be the occasional person who would say something I knew not to be true like a marriage could not possible survive in its previous state of being full of love and sexual attraction. Those people would get me irate and it consisted of people who had transitioned and who didn't, so no one group was totally clear of this behavior. I will always say that anything is possible, it may be a minority but you can't discount other people's experience.

This thread in particular and the one it forked from are examples of why I stay out when it gets contentious. I am not one that likes to enter the fray, although I might joke around like posting the flame proof suit. It just is not my style, which is fine. We are all different. But I am seeing some posts that are probably more combative than the authors normally write and I think it is the topic bringing it out. So read only mode tends to be a good choice for me.

One recent thought is one I disagree with in the way it seems to be getting presented. I was "full time except for work" for a long time. I know I didn't get the full experience and could not possibly know how it is being full time. But I think I did get a lot of the experience and I also believe that was a great path towards my transition going so well. Many people already knew Sue and I had already achieved a high level of comfort. Yes I had anxiety over work and that was because I value my job (who doesn't?). But I think we are overshooting the target and not giving enough credit to those that are out and about all except for work as they are getting an education and they are getting used to a level of discrimination and the stares. I have a lot of friends that are "all except for work" or middle panthers and they have a lot of experiences that are just like mine, minus the work ones. It depends how much they are all in on the non-work part of it. And this comment is from one that did live full time except for work, transitioned, and has almost a year under my belt. Yes, I know I have more to learn. That is probably the main thing that keeps me here as I sometimes wonder if I should stay.

BTW, there are multiple people here who have met me or talked on FaceTime/Skype, so I am not like a certain person no longer here. :D

[STACY B]

Just another way of doing it,, If your out everywhere but work that just means you havent went all the way an you are STILL TRANSITIONING !! If you are out all the way at work and EVERYWHERE than I guess your DONE? Maybe I am wrong but that is the way I see it? Hell I see folks that are Cross dressers and are in real early stages of there transition and I feel sorry for them in my head,,lol,, Even though I am still a Rookie but I am that much further than them. Who knows how far you will make it? See most people can't or don't have a lot of money to stop working or they couldn't do it,, An if they have insurance that is a Big one,, So they have to stay stealth to make the insurance pay,,lol,, Hell I don't blame them one bit. Like I said do it your way because you are the only one that knows you better than anyone.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Eryn your broad generalizations simply do not hold water...
you color everyone with your broad brush and its you that is a big part of the problem.

here's what makes me laugh..

here some of us are, talking about how hard it was to make our way as women, sharing stories, jobs issues, marriage issues, shame issues, money issues....

and you are here talking about how you don't want to hear it... but you want to talk about how hard it is to feel comfortable posting on a message board forum about it....

its literally hilarious

[Beth-Lock]

We have no real way of knowing who is and who isn't full time and living the life of their true gender. ....

Except some of us have met in RL and can vouch for each other.

I have been on this site for a long time, right through my actual transition. I have been through a lot of ups and downs here. Yet, overall, it is the information of a factual type as well as the recounting of the experiences of others, which has been of the greatest value. I owe those behind the site's existence and those making it work, day by day, a debt of gratitude. Thank you.

[Eryn]

Eryn your broad generalizations simply do not hold water...

Considering that there have been 95 posts in three days in a thread that began simply by quoting my assertions there seems to be considerable substance to what I wrote.

The ironic thing is that I did not start this thread. If Anne had not decided that my post from another thread was worth quoting the discussion would not have continued.

[becky77]

I was "full time except for work" for a long time. I know I didn't get the full experience and could not possibly know how it is being full time. But I think I did get a lot of the experience and I also believe that was a great path towards my transition going so well.


Problem with 'full-time except for work' is that it's an oxymoron, however I get what you mean, I am guilty of having said that in the past and the reason is this.
Ok, so you are not fulltime, we know that, except when I was 'part time' it was serious, I did absolutely everything as a woman (just couldn't do work just yet, had to change job and settle in a bit), so I did well over a year where I faced every single situation as a woman.
Yes I was part time, but the problem is a lot of part timers pick and choose and often go to male for trickier situations, I didn't. I think 'full-time except work' although clearly wrong kinda separates from the non serious.

So when people say I'm 'full-time except work', I realise it's not the correct wording but I understand the meaning behind it.

And because my experience outside work was the real deal, it set me up well for full-time, work went smoothly because I was ready and prepared.
I think that's a very different experience to a lot of the part timers. How do you differentiate, without saying anything less than full-time is to be almost dismissed?

[Rianna Humble]

I did absolutely everything as a woman (just couldn't do work just yet, had to change job and settle in a bit), so I did well over a year where I faced every single situation as a woman.

But you see, Becky, you are falling into the same trap as those who want us to believe that full-time-except-work is the same as full-time.

I don't doubt that you were serious, but you did not face every single situation as a woman until you were out at work. Before that you didn't experience any of your work situations as a woman.

[becky77]

But you see, Becky, you are falling into the same trap as those who want us to believe that full-time-except-work is the same as full-time.

I don't doubt that you were serious, but you did not face every single situation as a woman until you were out at work. Before that you didn't experience any of your work situations as a woman.

True, not the best wording then. I was trying to say the experience although not fulltime encompassed many aspects.
For example buying a new car, I bet most part timers would go as a guy, I didn't. My philosophy was there is no turning back full-time, so the part time should be the same.

As I said other than work (which is the big defining change for sure), all other stuff was as female, not just a weekend away or shopping at the mall or drinks with friends.

I think there is big differences to the levels of people's experiences before full-time, that part time doesn't necessarily capture.

I've heard so called fulltimers that go back to being male to face a particular difficult situation or relative, I didn't do that part time let alone full-time.

The issue isn't the experience it's the quality of that experience.

Because so many non-fulltimers avoid the more challenging situations, there is a tendency that only full-time can be taken seriously.

[kimdl93]

Ok, here's the point where I have to chime in. I know it's just a phrase, but the notion that non full timers dress as men when convenient may well imply a lot of things. It may mean we aren't ready or willing to risk our employment. It may mean we haven't yet decided to transition. It may mean that our presence here is all an elaborate and pointless hoax. However, except for the latter, I would hope we might be taken seriously.

Our experiences and our aspirations are (generally) valid and may be as helpful to people contemplating their identity and their future as the experiences of genuine full timers.

Sue's case illustrates the point. She did eventually go full time, but before that elected come out first in her social network. She could have done it all at once, but her sequence of actions seems, thus far to have worked pretty well for her. I know...it's a unique case, but then aren't we all?

[PretzelGirl]

I put the "full-time except for work" in quotes because it is an oxymoron, but it is what we are using and we all seem to be in the same ballpark on what it means and that includes some (me included) who had avoided certain situations. Maybe we shortcut to FTEFW? :-) Mine were simply if I got up on Friday morning and had an appointment I could run as a guy and come back and get ready for the day. So it amounted to the mechanic, dentist, and optometrist. I admit I got soft when it was easy to be soft. So I agree with Becky on her comments. There is a difference in FT and FTEFW, no doubt.

There are two thing some of this comes down to though.

First, each person's experience is different than others. My FTEFW went years and I know I had more experience than some people at their point of going full time. I think in trying to tell those currently in FTEFW that their experience isn't the same, we lose the thought that they are gaining valuable experience. It is a big deal to have a lot of the social aspects and a large percentage of the coming out already dealt with at the point of transition so you can focus on work, paperwork, and other things and have the overall mental burden lower.

Second, each person's life is going to be different. One of my catch phrases is we each have our own trans-life, our own trans-story. There is a local that has done a lot in the community. She is a CD and is presenting for what I perceive to be all activities except for heavy exercise (she likes long bike rides across the country). I recognize her contributions and her experience. What gets under my skin is her telling people what is trans* and what isn't. For example, the first time she got my attention was pre-transition, but I was thinking about it. She said in a group that once you start thinking about it, if you ever stand to pee, that is your sign to stop and turn around. How many of us wouldn't transition because of that "rule"? This last week, she was knocking a transitioned lady for wearing a pink, frilly top because it sent the impression to others that it was all about being girly.

So my overall point is that we are recognizing what FTEFW isn't and there is a lot of value in that recognition. I think the points coming back are what it is. Both parts are relevant and the "what it is" part seems to be getting minimized and I think it is important to recognize the value.

[Sara Jessica]

Jeeez Anne, can't you write about tacos or something??? ;)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Considering that there have been 95 posts in three days in a thread that began simply by quoting my assertions there seems to be considerable substance to what I wrote.

The ironic thing is that I did not start this thread. If Anne had not decided that my post from another thread was worth quoting the discussion would not have continued.

This is incoherent. your assertion is that people posting about how difficult transition is belittles others... that is ridiculous

the fact that an avalanche of posts came does not in any way validate your false assertion

the issue IS that people here make YOU feel belittled.. this is an issue ABOUT YOU... and you come up with some little quote that belittles people that dare to stand up your comments...

that doesnt mean i am small minded as you passive aggressively stated early,,,, it means i see your comment clearly for what it is....whining about something that doesnt exist.(generally speaking...one thing that complicates matters is sometimes there are mean posts, sometimes there are nasty comments, some of them are sneaky nasty ...but that is far far far from the rule)


and if i was to whine, i'd say something like...wah wah wah... dont say full time except work because it makes me feel bad....your false assertions disbeleive and marginalize transition...dressing up during the evenings is just as good as living full time... wah wah

i bet my life on transition...one thing is i get to say "full time" and mean it...
one thing about "full time" is that it means full time... there is no middle to it, no prevarication....it feels really bad to have people not make that investment and then claim some kind of ownership to it..

but i dont...because it doesnt make me feel bad... and that's because i learned to live with my feelings and my reality by transitioning and living authentically...
there is nothing to whine about...its my life...

======================================
its your life too Eryn, maybe consider stop whining about what makes you feel belittled and live your life in a way that makes you feel included instead of demanding people dont share their experience..

maybe consider that transitioned people actually know more about transition than you... maybe consider that's OK with you and live your different life the way you want and be good with it...

it surprises me because the things i read about your personal journey seem like you are making excellent progress and doing very well...but your posts in this thread and other tell another story



and one last thing... easy transitions are possible...hard work and serendipity and dare i say priviledge(appearance, $$, a bisexual wife) can really help a person achieve hugely successful outcomes..does that make you feel better??

[stefan37]

I doubt you want to hear a dissertation those either.

[kimdl93]

Jeeez Anne, can't you write about tacos or something??? ;)


Mmmmmmm, bacon tacos!

[PretzelGirl]

and one last thing... easy transitions are possible...hard work and serendipity and dare i say priviledge(appearance, $$, a bisexual wife) can really help a person achieve hugely successful outcomes..does that make you feel better??

Do dare to say it! Aligned stars are important too.

[stefan37]

Only with a harvest Moon.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm coming out today, thank you all for giving me the courage.
I just want to say... I'm straight.

*whew*

[Badtranny]

Okay, brilliant posts from Kait with a K aside, I see gals that I respect starting to go down the "except for work" rabbit hole.

First of all, there is no TranSitioner that would say that any experience towards living your truth is invalid. Hell, going to the club dressed to kill is a valid experience. Going to Sparkle is a valid experience. Very few people who dance on the gender fence will actually ever transition to the other side so hopefully everyone is expressing themselves for the sake of self expression rather than trying to tick off some kind of pre-transition checklist.

Second, if someone is not full-time and they don't take advantage of that then they are just plain nuts. I'll tell you right now that my part-time experience was limited to situations where I felt comfortable. Period. I didn't give a damn about gaining cred in this forum or the community at large. My transition was for me and me alone. My time, my life, my schedule, my everything. I did it my way, and I made plenty of mistakes, but those were mine too.

Also, when someone says "except work", that means that their name isn't changed, that their life in the legal sense is being lived as a man. So what they're really saying is that their time spent as a woman is really time spent dressed as a woman. Transition is not about dressing in women's clothes. It's about LIVING the life of a woman. Voting, working, paying bills, etc. Late transitioners tend to look like men, so does that make it LESS important that you take steps to change your name and gender marker? You will very likely face discrimination while doing this. That's the life.

People say "except work" like it's just this tiny little sliver of your life. It's actually the biggest part of your life if you are a professional. If your career and professional relationships don't bleed into your personal time, then I want to do what you do. Further if your're going to try and tell me that wearing women's clothes on the weekends is even remotely like what I had to endure when I walked into the office on day one and all of the subsequent 'coming outs' at meetings and job sites throughout that first year then I'm just gonna shake my head and wish you the best.

Having said all that, there is no question that doing the part time thing can be a valuable training ground. Most people will stop there and enjoy expressing themselves in their own damn comfort zones. I think that's just dandy.

The bottom line is, that even the girls who had prolonged periods of "except work" now say that it isn't comparable to dropping the F (full-time) bomb. They now know this because they learned it the hard way; They went FULL-TIME.

[Suzanne F]

My experience is very similar to Sue's. I am full time except for work. Yes I did come out to the President of my company last week so I am anxious to take the except work off! However, our experiences can be misleading. I work from home except when in front of customers or maybe twice a month when I have to appear at the plant and office. So my except work is not that much. I have been out socially and as a parent for a year and a half. I assure you that is more than dressing up. But yes it has become more real with gender and name change and coming out to my boss.

It is simple, I don't share about being out at work because I don't know anything about it. I hope in about 2 weeks I will!

Oh and yes there are those of us who are just truly lucky and we have bisexual wives that just couldn't wait until we transitioned. I know my wife was so elated when I turned our lives upside down. It was so easy and there were no difficult conversations or soul searching. She can't wait until I have SRS!
Hmmmmm.

Suzanne

[kimdl93]

Melissa I totally agree. Transition, committing to life as a woman in all respects, cannot be compared to part time experienced. Part time, or even FTEFW (love having another acronym to play with) are clearly just stops along the way. And some of us may take the bus all to the end, while others may get off at an intervening stop.

You're also right that we shouldn't be concerned about gaining credibility with anyone. The task for each of us is to figure out who we are and how far we are going.

To the topic where this all began, yes it helps to hear the voices of disparate experiences, good and bad, along the way. Given the nature of the medium,such discussions often seem to give way to contentious and increasing personal disputes...like any you tube comment section. At that point I usually check out and look for something else to read.

[Frances]

The gender program I went through only started the clock on full-time if the patient/client was full-time at work or in school. They wanted to observe and evaluate the effect of stressors in situations where it mattered. Otherwise, it's cross-dressing.

If the transitioner is a tomboy, how is it full-time, full-time? It's the affirmation of the new social identity with the mininum required to make it visible. In my case, it was hair removal. The vageenal surgery is less and less important as jurisdictions relax rules on gender markers (my F rested on SRS). After that, it becomes a philosophical question for people like Kathryn and others who care about it.

It does not mean that people who are not full-time don't have a right to speak up and don't deserve to be heard. It means that they cannot claim to have transitioned and demand to be regarded as such.

[becky77]

Can I just say something really important here.

Bacon Tacos?? Seriously is that a thing?

[stefan37]

Hell yeah. And they are delicious.

[Kimberly Kael]

I hesitate to be completely pedantic about definitions. Circumstances differ from individual to individual, after all. On the other hand, the "except work" exclusion represents both a big chunk of waking, social interaction and a major hurdle that is being avoided. It's also a potential daily dodge for any errands being run before or after work. Then there's the legal identity issue that Melissa raises, and the unavoidable fact that trying to avoid being outed at work suggests also avoiding running into co-workers outside of a work environment.

... but I do wonder how common extremely limited carve-outs are even among those I'd consider to be clearly full-time. I haven't contacted my high school or university to have transcripts updated because I don't see the point. There's even a small branch of the family that I haven't heard from since pre-transition that I haven't reached out to. There's even one family member that I visited twice in drab. Ugh. I'm almost certain hard-liners would be aghast and could very well be up in arms at that revelation. It's actually something I talked over with my therapist at some length due to the circumstances and conflict attached: my grandfather's health was failing and my father was positively apoplectic at the idea of me coming out to him. In working toward reconciliation with my father I didn't think that was the right battle to fight, given that he wouldn't be present. So yes, I spent about 5 hours in drab out of the first five years. From my therapist's point of view she saw it not as a convenience, but a hardship I was willing to endure.

Transition is complicated and often ugly. I found some surprising discoveries in that that last-ever experience prior to my grandfather's death. Walking out of the hotel we were staying at that morning I felt hopelessly awkward in what felt like clown shoes and ill-fitting garb, and yet the doorman saw through it all and told us to "have a nice day, ladies." My grandfather's last words to me when we parted that day were to observe how much I reminded him of his late wife. That feeling of being cross-dressed in reverse against my own wishes was distinctly odd and strangely confirming.

[Eryn]

This is incoherent. your assertion is that people posting about how difficult transition is belittles others...


This is a deliberate misreading of what I wrote. I will repeat it here for your convenience:


Telling a person that their ideas are invalid or wrong because they haven't:

1. Had surgery
2. Suffered as another person has
3. Lived full-time
4. Attempted suicide
5. Been discriminated against in a particular way

or had some other life experience is belittling.

We should be discussing the issues that we face. Attacking another's credibility achieves little except for driving away those who are too fragile to tolerate the drama.

Note that I stated that the act of telling someone that their ideas are invalid is belittling.

In no way did I state or imply that describing one's own experiences is belittling.

In fact, I stated that we should be discussing the issues we face!

What we shouldn't be doing is attacking the credibility of other members because their issues and paths differ from our own.

[kimdl93]

Can I just say something really important here.

Bacon Tacos?? Seriously is that a thing?

Yes indeed. And probably deep fat fried bacon tacos at the Minnesota State Fair. It's an American thing.

[stefan37]

Being brutally honest. If an individual that is contemplating transition can't tolerate the drama on an internet forum. There is no way they will be able to weather the drama that comes with transition in real life.

The crux of the this debate is that part timers chime in they are full time except. When they told it is not comparable they get butthurt and try to justify their position.
This topic is being debated back and forth. And it would be great if Trans individuals were the only ones. But it boils down to society. I lived and worked with various presentations during my early transition. My employees, family and clients knew what I doing at least a year before I received my name change. They didn't take it seriously until the name change. The date the court declared Stephen should be thereafter known as Stephanie was the date I went full-time. If was only then those around me knew I was serious and this was life from now on.

[PretzelGirl]

Today is house cleaning day for me. I was just cleaning the toilet and a thought came to me that applies here. This is so dirty, why in the world did I want to put my butt here?

I think this thread (and it is the same thread even if we are at rev 5 because of the child threads) has been filled with a lot of things. And I feel for Rianna and Nigella for weathering all of this. First, I see discussions where you can tell one person is approaching it a certain way and someone comes back with a counter point, but they are approaching it differently. A good example was the thing that started this, should your name be legally changed for it to be RLE. Some people argued about it legally, some by WPATH standards, and some morally. It went in circles because there wasn't a lot of syncing to the thoughts. And that has continued through the rest of this.


The crux of the this debate is that part timers chime in they are full time except. When they told it is not comparable they get butthurt and try to justify their posit

Well, in my opinion, no. I see everyone getting butt hurt, not just the part timers. It is one great big cluster of butt hurt. At this point, I am not going to go back and restate anything I have stated before. I already see people misstating what I have already said. Heck, I am full time and I am defending that part timers are getting some experience. But I see comments that say "all the full timers....". This has gotten too big to have any value anymore.

I think it is time to wrap this up as one great big miscommunication. We have lost the real points of the discussion and it has been like a shotgun blast of points. There are a lot of things being misinterpreted and no ground being gained. I have seen a few serious snips out there that I hate to see. We are all in this together and we all have different thoughts and experiences and I value it all as it has brought me from the beginning to where I am. It is one thing to offer advice and experience to guide those on the path and it is another to tell people they are wrong even if they are experiencing it.

[stefan37]

I'm hardly butthurt. Just stating my experience with transition and interacting with the public and authorities.

How anybody else wishes to live their life is up to them.

[PretzelGirl]

To be clear, I am not calling out anyone in particular. Just stating my observations.

[grace7777]

I am somebody who is a part-timer. As to transitioning, that is something I am currently in the process of deciding. Two years ago I would have said never, a year ago a small possibility. Now it is about 50/50. One step I am taking on the road to transitioning is laser hair removal on my face.

Now part-time can mean different things to different people. For me it does not include work situations. Outside of work situations I mostly present as a woman. There are a few in which I still present as a male. One would be going to the auto mechanic, and I am planning to go have maintenance on my car done in the next week or two, and do it presenting as a woman. Another situation is when I meet with people I have not outed myself to, and these are people I knew before I ever started going out in public dressed en femme. This is a situation I am not in very often anymore. Now when I recently took care of legal situations like register my car or getting a drivers license or getting a replacement Social Security Card, I did do that in male mode.

My part time situation now does involve a lot of situations that I am comfortable, but they are comfortable because I have done them over and over again. These situations include things like going grocery shopping, shopping for items that do not involve female clothing, going on a walk for the purpose of exercise, going out to restaurants. These situations were not comfortable for me when I first did them. I remember how nerve wrecking it was when I first flew dressed en femme and also having to deal with government people. Checking into a hotel presenting as a woman was also nerve wrecking the first time I did it. So by doing things that are uncomfortable at first, I am able to expand my comfort zone.

If I am doing things that I did before I ever started dressing en femme, then to me it is more than just time spent dressing as a woman. So before ever presenting as a woman in public I did shop for non-female related items, I went to restaurants, and I did go out on walks.

Now I understand that part time can never substitute for being 24/7, and you cannot fully understand what it is like to live full time as a woman until you actually do it. By being part time I am exploring the idea as to whether I would want to live 24/7 as a woman and fully transition. The more time that I spend presenting as a woman, the stronger I find my desire to transition. Going back about 3 years ago, I thought dressing as a woman once every few months outside of the town I live in would satisfy me, but it does not do that anymore. As to where I end up in the future I cannot say, maybe I will stay as a part-timer or maybe I will in fact transition. I am planning to take my time in making this decision, so that I will make a decision that I will not regret in future years.

[mechamoose]

Buddha onna biscuit! We are all family, people. We may not always have the same experiences and the same challenges, but that bull in a dress is on the same side as you slinky things who have transformed. We are all part of the same experience.

How dare any of you/us marginalize others of us who are still fighting with ourselves?

None of us are 'fair game'. We are all just expressing aspects of the divine people we are. We are all just aspects of the same power.

Avatars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar)

Hate is hate. Exclusion is exclusion.

We are all part of the same thing. I get angry at much of the limited thoughts expressed by people who should know better.

- MM

[Eryn]

Can I just say something really important here.

Bacon Tacos?? Seriously is that a thing?

Hell yeah. And they are delicious.

Yes indeed. And probably deep fat fried bacon tacos at the Minnesota State Fair. It's an American thing.

All American! Brings back memories of the LA County Fair, where they spend all year figuring out things to deep fat fry.

Twinkies, ice cream, bacon-wrapped pickles, sausage, peanut butter, Kool Aid, donuts, Oreos, and some things that are really weird!

As well as the Krispy Kreme triple cheeseburger:

250007


http://www.lacountyfair.com/eat/food_v2

[kimdl93]

Last year at the Texas state fair they had deep fried butter. But only the Minnesota State Fair has Garrison Keillor and the Prairie Home Companion!

[Eryn]

I dunno, it would be pretty tough to deep-fry Garrison Keillor!

"Welcome to CD.com, where all the transwomen are strong, all the transmen are good-looking, and all the TG folk are above average."

[Mink]

Last year at the Texas state fair they had deep fried butter. But only the Minnesota State Fair has Garrison Keillor and the Prairie Home Companion!

can't STAND that guy! (he went to my high school! as did michelle bachman! what a school!)



also how does this bacon taco etc talk have ANYTHING to do with this said thread?

odd how other threads / forums are HAIR TRIGGER for going off the topic but here it's allowed

everything all of the time!

[stefan37]

Bacon tacos are authentic!!

[Mink]

Ban the Bacon!

what do you call cheese that's not yours?

Not Your Cheese!

[kimdl93]

odd how other threads / forums are HAIR TRIGGER for going off the topic but here it's allowed

everything all of the time!

Honestly, if you can't see the obvious and direct correlation between bacon tacos and the OP, then I am at a loss to explain it. One would expect more from a graduate of the same high school that could produce such disparate alumni as the deservedly revered Garrison Keillor, and the bat-**** crazy Ms Bachmann.

[Mink]

finally the youth are revolting against the reviled and revolting gary keller! ... as for Bock Man? she was a bit TOO hated!

if you know what I mean!

(and I think you do!)

[Sara Jessica]

There is a direct correlation between tacos and OP. Kind of an inside/outside joke that goes back a long time.

[Eryn]

I've been to the county fair several times where deep-fried food was enjoyed and I'm not full-time. See, it *is* on-topic. :)

[Rianna Humble]

Time out. This thread has now run its course.