Addressing Someone When You Can't Tell

[Krisi]

Yesterday, I went to a local shop to have some work done. It's not really a retail shop, they repair and make things. There were two people working that I spoke to. One was clearly a middle aged woman. The other, I could not tell. I'll use the term "she" because she had a definite female voice. She also appeared to have small breasts but of course I was trying to not look. Her clothing was appropriate for a workshop, jeans and a T shirt. Her hair was very short, almost a crew cut. A male haircut. I didn't really notice any jewelry or makeup but of course, I was there on business, not to evaluate the employees on their dress or gender. She was much younger than the other employee, perhaps in her late twenties.

This was possibly a female who had lost her hair from a medical condition and it was growing back or possibly something else. Her build was pretty much that of a slender female.

I had to consciously word my communications so as to not refer to her as "her" or "he".

So, my question is, how do you address or refer to a person like this? I don't want to get it wrong and I don't want to have to ask.

[Stephanie47]

You could introduce yourself using your name, and, wait for the person's response. A person will usually respond with their name. If you were communicating with the person who was obviously a female, you could in conversation refer to her coworker as your "coworker" or "partner" until a name is dropped.

[flatlander_48]

You can't always tell by name if someone says Pat, Jo, Dana, Kim, etc.

You have to be pretty gender-neutral until it is pretty clear...

DeeAnn

[kimdl93]

If I'm unsure, I try to avoid using a pronoun at all, and I'd probably listen to conversation to see if I could get a clue.

[Meghan4now]

SNL skit Pat, the S.O. Chris, the parent Gene or Jean. They always tried to nail it down, and never could nail it down.

If you have to, go with female. Apologize if corrected. And smile a lot.

[ReineD]

We don't normally address people in the third person when we're talking to them. So I would ask for their name, and address them as that (and if they say Mr. or Miss so-and-so, then your issue is resolved).

If you were talking to another person about his or her work and he or she was present, then I would again ask for the person's name and refer to them as that, or I would refer to them in a gender neutral way such as by their occupation: the welder, the carpenter, the machinist, your employee or employer, or coworker.


You can't always tell by name if someone says Pat, Jo, Dana, Kim, etc.

You have to be pretty gender-neutral until it is pretty clear...


Addressing someone by the name they give you or their occupation if they are present and you are referring to them, is the most neutral we can be! Nothing says you need to comment on their gender identity. :)

If you're having an issue about the wait staff in a restaurant where the occupation name implies gender (waiter/waitress), then I'd ask for a name or if this wasn't indicated, I'd use the term "wait staff".

I have dealt with a lot of people in my life and I cannot remember being confounded by someone's gender, other than maybe at a CD/TG/TS attended event but even then this is rare because at those events, people are sure to dress in the manner they want to be addressed. I've been in situations when I felt that maybe a birth-woman was FtM (vs. identifying as a woman). But I resolved it by asking them how they wanted to be addressed.

[AllieSF]

I would and have used the pronouns that I thought were appropriate at the moment. I really try not to put myself in a "walking on eggshells and trying not to break them" type of situation. As someone said above, if wrong, correct yourself. If someone is continually mis-gendered then I would suspect that their presentation, mannerisms and voice may have something to do with it, and thus it is not the fault of the person who really cannot accurately tell what gender they are. If it bothers the person that is continually mis-gendered then they should take positive actions to help the confused.

[flatlander_48]

We don't normally address people in the third person when we're talking to them. So I would ask for their name, and address them as that (and if they say Mr. or Miss so-and-so, then your issue is resolved).

If you were talking to another person about his or her work and he or she was present, then I would again ask for the person's name and refer to them as that, or I would refer to them in a gender neutral way such as by their occupation: the welder, the carpenter, the machinist, your employee or employer, or coworker.



Addressing someone by the name they give you or their occupation if they are present and you are referring to them, is the most neutral we can be! Nothing says you need to comment on their gender identity. :)

If you're having an issue about the wait staff in a restaurant where the occupation name implies gender (waiter/waitress), then I'd ask for a name or if this wasn't indicated, I'd use the term "wait staff".

I have dealt with a lot of people in my life and I cannot remember being confounded by someone's gender, other than maybe at a CD/TG/TS attended event but even then this is rare because at those events, people are sure to dress in the manner they want to be addressed. I've been in situations when I felt that maybe a birth-woman was FtM (vs. identifying as a woman). But I resolved it by asking them how they wanted to be addressed.

There's 2 parts: addressing someone directly and referring to them indirectly with another person. While you can get it right directly, you can still get it wrong when talking to another person. We don't always use names when referring to people and it may even suggest a level of familiarity that doesn't exist.

DeeAnn

[Gwinnie]

I was wondering that this weekend. My wife and I were at Golden Corral and saw a woman eating alone that looked like she might be one of us. She seemed to really like our baby. Our baby liked her too. I wanted to tell her I liked her shoes and that I had the same ones. Which I do. but I was too nervous about it in case I was wrong.

Gwendolyn

[sometimes_miss]

If you're having an issue about the wait staff in a restaurant where the occupation name implies gender (waiter/waitress), then I'd ask for a name or if this wasn't indicated, I'd use the term "wait staff".
That one has been taken care of, they're now all 'servers'. Just like stewardesses and stewards are now 'flight attendents'. Salesmen and saleswomen are now salespersons, sales reps, or sales associates. There's probably lots more like that but I'm pretty tired and that's all I can come up with.

[Krisi]

Since this was an upholstery shop, the person I was talking to was either a seamstress or a seamster. The voice was definitely female, but the haircut appeared to be male. As I posted in the original post, the clothing was gender neutral for a workshop. I managed to avoid having to say he or she or him or her but I may have to deal with this person again when the work is complete. She (or he) was very pleasant and I don't want to embarrass either of us.

[ReineD]

There's 2 parts: addressing someone directly and referring to them indirectly with another person. While you can get it right directly, you can still get it wrong when talking to another person. We don't always use names when referring to people and it may even suggest a level of familiarity that doesn't exist.

That's why you ask, something like, "What's your assistant's name?", or you refer to them by what they do: the carpenter, server, technician, librarian, assistant, coworker, etc.


Since this was an upholstery shop, the person I was talking to was either a seamstress or a seamster.

You would have been perfectly safe with referring to the person as the upholsterer, coworker, or assistant. Upholsterers do sew and this was an upholstery shop. :) Or you could have said, "I feel uncomfortable referring to someone present in the third person, so would you please tell me your assistant's name. Or if there were lots of upholsterers there and you wanted to refer to this particular person, you could have said, "The person who helped me this morning, or the upholsterer (or person) who is working on my piece.

Gender really doesn't need to come into it. In fact, in many languages they don't even have male and female pronouns. Everything is neutral.


I wanted to tell her I liked her shoes and that I had the same ones. Which I do. but I was too nervous about it in case I was wrong.


What's wrong with saying, "Hi" or "Excuse me, I really like your shoes". She was dressed as a woman, right? So even if she had been a CDer, you would not have said, "Excuse me SIR, but I really like your shoes".

[Krisi]

"in many languages they don't even have male and female pronouns. Everything is neutral."

And that's where the problem lies. English is not like that. It's often difficult to work around that. If English had "neutral" words. I wouldn't have started this thread.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Krisi, I just talk to them without addressing any gender terms.:daydreaming:

[Krisi]

That's what I tried to do. Sometimes it's awkward though. I know some of the members here talk about going out in public in "androgynous" mode. That has to confuse people and I wonder if that's why they do it. I'm sure that's not the case with this person.

[Beverley Sims]

Just smile, be pleasant and use "androgynous speak".

That sounds good to me. :)

[ReineD]

And that's where the problem lies. English is not like that. It's often difficult to work around that. If English had "neutral" words. I wouldn't have started this thread.

My point was, that if large chunks of people globally can manage without gendered pronouns, so can we. :)

We do not say "he" or "she" when talking to someone, we use their name so you can ask. Or you can just say, "excuse me" to get their attention when you don't know their name. And in the course of the conversation, you don't need to use their name at all and the pronoun used is the neutral "you". If you're referring to a third person who is in the room when talking to someone else, use the occupation "upholster", or "the person who is working on my sofa", or "your coworker". If this is awkward, then ask for the person's name. It's not that hard!

[Candice June Lee]

When I moved to Memphis for my job transfer, the "lady" at one of the lots I deal with was totally UN definable. Once I got her name it was much easier. Even after a year of dealing with her I wonder of her identity.
So I am totally understanding of what you went through and its totally awkward when dealing with a person like you encountered. I have mistakenly said sir or ma'am to a person and was quickly corrected. It's mind tracking to me when I encounter that situation.