Upsetting conversation with my wife tonight

[Camille15]

I had a difficult conversation with my wife tonight. I found myself coming downstairs after she fell asleep to cry a bit and "journal" here. Feel free to read, or not. This is mostly for my own catharsis.

I shared today with my wife that I underdressed for the first time at work. It's been a very stressful few weeks, and very long since I've had any Camille time, so I thought "what the hell" and tried it. I loved it. :) And as always, I shared another of life's adventure's with her when I got home. At first she laughed about it, which hurt my feelings. But she explained that she only laughed because she thought it was so inventive of me (she'd never heard of underdressing and didn't know it's a "thing"). She's always been supportive of my dressing, and didn't mean to hurt my feelings. So all was good.

But tonight as we were laying in bed she shared that my underdressing caused her great concern because it's outside of the "status quo" of my dressing to date. She's concerned about where all of this is going with me doing something in public (i.e. at work). She was concerned about what might come next. Would I want to wear a camisole to work under my t-shirt? A loose shirt so I could conceal a bra? Nylons and garter belts? What if I had bent over and someone saw the underwear? This set off an alarm for her that things were going in a new direction than just my every 3-4 month dress-up day in a hotel room. I tried to assure her that underwear was it, and that it wasn't even visible because I had boxers over it, and jeans on top with a cinched belt. But none of that was helping.

I also connected with someone else on the forum recently who lives in my area, and we had planned to meet for dinner (in male mode) later this month. My wife OK'd it initially after some discussion, but tonight confessed that she's very worried about that too. Firstly, my need to meet another CD'er concerns her (again about the direction this is taking). "What's next", she said, "maybe you'll want to go to a convention?" And secondly, and more urgently, she is concerned that someone far from accepting might overhear this person and I talking about CD'ing at the restaurant and try to beat me up on the way back to my car or something like that. My wife had a very traumatic childhood, and one result of it is that she is very mistrusting of the world. She defaults to the worst possible outcomes in any situation, assuming only the worst in people. When I responded to the convention piece, asking what would scare her about it, she said some crazy conservative extremist person with a gun or bomb could take the whole place out (as an example).

I love my wife and don't want to put her in a position where she's fearful for my safety. She already experiences enough fear when I do my hotel dress-up days as Camille every few months, thinking someone may peek in the window, see a CD'er, and then try to hurt me. And I read on this forum the stories of so many others in total DADT relationships, or divorced as a result of CD'ing, and it makes me feel so lucky to even have a wife who will let me dress at all, receive packages at the house, etc. So I feel very fortunate to even have what I do. So I told her that I would no longer do any underdressing at work, and that I would not meet this person from the forum, because I don't really "need" to do these things, and don't want her to feel fearful. She appreciated that, though then she felt like I would resent for this. I told her that her feeling of safety meant more to me than the need to underdress or meet a fellow CD'er, which helped.

But this all makes me very sad, as the underdressing brought me real joy today, and I was so looking forward to connecting with another person (in person) who could understand me on a level that none of my friends or family can. I am mourning the loss of these things, because I don't want to do it anyway and just lie about it. And I do want to get out in public a bit. I would love to go to a CD convention and spend the day dressed. I'd always hoped my wife would come around eventually to feeling safer and better about these as possibilities. But I feel quite hopeless about that now. As much as I want those things though, they are not worth my marriage, or worth putting my wife though so much fear of losing me. Despite her concerns being very far fetched in my opinion, they are still real fears for her and cause her real hardship. At the same time, I grew up in a household with an extremely nervous and overprotective mother where everyone in the house restricted themselves to keep her feeling safe and happy. So this is all definitely striking a nerve with me. I didn't want to feel that way in my own home as an adult.

A frustrating factor here too is that my wife isn't interested in joining this forum, talking to a professional, reading any materials (except the few I've asked her to read). So she has very little information on the spectrum of CD'ing. But inline with her inclination towards fearing the worst, she told me tonight that she wonders where this is all going, and if in 25 years I won't want to become a woman. I tried to explain to her that I am "just a crossdresser", and that I don't have that desire nor never have to be actually female. But her only response was that I "am not psychic", and that all my assuring and fact quoting her wasn't helping her. I think at some level she is fearful to learn more, because she might discover facts that will reaffirm her worst fears about my path.

Thanks to anyone who bothered to read all of this. Life will go on and Camille will have her moments here and there in hotel rooms. And the fact that I get to "be" her at all is a wonderful gift, even if it's seldom. Sooner or later I was bound to hit a boundary and discover just how big my fishbowl really is, and I think that now I am.

Camille

[Katey888]

That's a very touching and honest post Camille... :hugs:

It sounds to me like you understand the potential issues and you obviously know your own wife and circumstances better than anyone here... so I'm definitely not offering advice, just a little sympathy for your struggles and a bigger hug...

:bighug:

Keep Calm & Carry On!

Katey x

[JeanetteX]

Hi Camille, thanks for sharing this story with us. I read it with great interest and although I dont have an immediate solution for you, I must say that one remark struck me. You mentioned your wife doesn't wanna look at this forum. Yet I do know from experience that people who don't understand CDing or CDers, get a whole different look at us after reading our stories. They do somehow realise the innocence (well, in 99% of all cases I'd say) of our lifestyle. So maybe it would be a good thing to somehow convince her to have a look here after all. Good luck girl...I wish you all the best

[Candice June Lee]

Hi Camille, your wife's childhood trauma, whatever it was, is the key here it seems. I hear this safety concern from one of the other cders that I hang out with regularly. With that she had rights to be concerned. But a tiny fish bowl is a small world compared to the larger body of water the bowl is floating in. I don't know how to help you in this. It dies seem there is a need for you to be dressed in some form than what you have. I wish you well and hope that you can progress rather than stay in a stagnant fish bowl.

[Mark/Rebecca]

Honey, show her these. They may fit the bill for underdressing without the fear of discovery, and are actually quite fashionable.
http://www.primadonna.eu/en/primadonna-twist-fall-winter-2015/icone/classy-blue/productdetail-shorts-hotpants-0541403blc

[deebra]

I think some good advice is you don't have to tell her everything since she is so paranoid and had a bad childhood. For example if you can underdress for work and get out of the undies when you get home from work without her knowing this just might work for both of you i.e. in the bathroom with the door shut. Meeting with the CD dressed male just might help you to talk with one of ours, just don't mention it. I respect your love for your wife but some things between a husband and wife are better left unsaid, you know men are from Mars and women from Venius, their minds are on different wave lengths and all the talking in the world doesn't make them think alike.

Your CDing is not going away, it's wired in your brain and nobody can change that so my suggestions just might allow the both of you to deal with the situation until "time and moving slow" helps her accept". You shouldn't be denied your need to CD.

[ChristinaK]

Camille, I feel your pain. It must be difficult for our wives. I get frustrated with mine that she has strict limits on me, so I do things without her knowledge. I guess that's a part of the DADT relationship.

Women tend to be accomodating, and wanting to give their husbands some latitude, let them do things they don't agree with o4 even find abhorrent just to keep their husbands happy. I have known a few who despise hunting, yet have furry heads hanging in their homes.

In our case, it's crossdressing. While our wives allow some behavior, they also want to protect us and them from societal embarrassment. Women are much more sensitive to societal perceptions than men are, generally. Hence, once we entire into an area outside of extreme privacy, we are not only affecting ourselves, but their status and respect from others is tied to us.

So, it could be that your wife is genuinely overly concerned for your safety, but also concerned about her own place in society.

Women like to be proud of who their husbands are. A crossdresser is not on the list of things to be proud of.

I don't have any help for you, other than to empathize and listen. Too bad we're not passionate about some other hobby that would make them proud, but we are who we are.

[kimdl93]

Don't assume that you're forever frozen in this situation. Keep open the channels of communication with your wife so that you can express your needs and interests, and she can deal, over time, with her fears. Many people find change threatening,nut over time the fears prove unfounded. Give her time and patience.

[mykell]

hi camille,
last spring i ventured out for the first time ever and was scared about how natural it felt, last year during the winter i told her about my wish list, to shave my legs, go to a sponsored event, and attend a support group.....but i will not leave the house dressed, doing makeup in the car sucks !!! like yourself i wish to venture outside the fishbowl and test the water outside the walls, but i respect my wifes wishes and will not do anything she does not approve of, she is told whatever the outcome as i tell her no more sneaking around, i told her that DADT will not be an excuse to do what i want.....iv had discussions with a forum member which are surreal, more than sharing in our writings here, but she was told it was to happen... this is a thread i started about the quilt i felt about her not receiving or having anyone to talk to about this,
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?229554-lack-of-interest-of-understanding

i brought home a therapists card for her and some informational brochures from my support meeting also which she has not touched or acted on, her way of coping
so its a "can lead a horse to water but cant make them drink" kinda thing.....and you wife is right about the "physic" remark, where it ends nobody knows....

so no advise i suppose but a hug, virtual...but a squeezy one.....

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

Pretty sure many of us can relate to your situation, I know that I can. Once I told my wife that I was a crossdresser, around our 18th anniversary I have continually carried my dressing farther and farther. I always underdress and go out quite often fully dressed. We go shopping together at times and I have my Sandra days, sometimes more than I really should. Through it all my wife has been fairly supportive but I have at times gone too far for her and it is wrong of me to do so. Just be careful to always try and respect her wishes and feelings, that will go a long way.

[IamWren]

I was really saddened to read your post Camille and especially to know at what time you were awake when you posted it. It must have been a stressful night. I wish I could offer some advice but I'm new to this myself... not only on the forum but to dressing as well.

On one level I can agree with what Deebra said and underdress at work and try to keep it hidden. But I understand you don't want to lie to your wife and something I've read on the forum is that, in time, you WILL get caught. I don't think I could recommend that.

I hope you and your wife can have some open and honest conversation about what it is you want for both your and her sake. Crossing my fingers.

I'm thinking of you and offer you a hug across the void. (((hug)))
~Sayyidah

[Katya@]

Hello Camille,
Thank you for sharing. You are a great and understanding husband. No doubt about it. You certainly have a lot of respect for your wife. You have a communication channel open and that is great and keep it open. It could only resolve itself in my opinion through conversation and it will take time. But don't loose hope. I can also understand her hesitation to join the forum - heck, it took me a year to register. I just finished reading a nice book My Husband Wears my Clothes. It is super cheap and available on Amazon. Written by a wife of a CD. Maybe buy one and leave it in the house. She ma peak at it and then read. It will help her to learn about us. Honestly, I am still waiting for my wife to read it. However, we had busy few months so I am still hopeful she will. Good luck and hugs!

[St. Eve]

Hi Camille,

Thanks for your story and vulnerability. I share the opinion of not giving you advice, I can only tell you my experience (which I believe has many similarities)....

So much of what you wrote is familiar to me. My wife has had so many of the same fears, and, at first, she was not willing to go to counseling or join a support group. When it became obvious that I needed to delve into my CD and gender issues deeper for my own sanity, she was able to slowly, painfully take her head out of the sand and we have both seen our own counselors for a couple months now. She would even be willing to meet other spouses now when I am ready to mingle with our own local community which will be soon, I hope.

Also, the first time I asked her about her boundaries with the women's clothes I was buying - other than the day or two per month we would set up for me to dress outside of her sight - she broke into tears and was very scared at the thought that I wanted to wear some kind of women's clothing every day. Very slowly, and with the help of both our therapists, we have learned two things:

1) She is deeply afraid of a future where I will need to present as a female more and more. She is not in any way attracted to females or desiring to be in a relationship with one, so she is very afraid she will lose her husband, lover, and best friend. No matter what I believe about my future path, I have a great deal of compassion for her fears and how they mess with her.

2) She is very visual by nature. It is so hard for her to see me in any kind of woman's presentation and still see me. She simultaneously wants to love and support me, but has her own inner conflict when she imagines me in any kind of female presentation. Any thought of me presenting female throws her into the fear of #1 above.

Here is the agreement we came to after about two months of therapy and negotiation...
-I can fully dress one day a month in our home, where she will leave the house for a long time and let me know when she is returning.
-I agree to wear ZERO female clothes in her presence, even if she can not see them, so that she can be present with me without concern or fear.
-When I am on my own (work, play, etc.) I get to choose my own clothes, whatever they are.

So far, and this agreement is only about three weeks old, we are both satisfied. I do carry an extra pair of men's underwear in my briefcase and change before I get home, or, immediately upon returning to the house. I want to uphold our agreements no matter how much I yearn to dress at home. Even though I get sad, resentful, or hurting at times, I remind myself how much I value our 25 years together and how hard she is working to accept my Twin Spirit nature.

I also have come to ask her the following question on many occasions - "Are you afraid of me now, or the me in the future." She has always replied "the future," This allows us to continue to walk with baby steps and honesty and intimacy, knowing it will be a mess, but also loving each other and having no secrets. It is kind of a DADT with benefits.

I send loving kindness to both of you. I will hold the hope of communication, integration, and transformation in your coupleship.

Peace
Eve

[Tracii G]

And she may be afraid to join here why? Afraid she might actually be wrong in her fears?

[Robinadress]

Thank you for posting this sad but important post. It was really touching to read your story. I truly see how much you and your wife love each other.

I’m not an expert at all on these issues. Personally I have just got out of a DADT, but that was after several years with patience to make my SO trust me. After reading a lot of stories about the relationship between the CD and the wife I have some theories on how to approach these situations. The problem is that every wife have a their own personalities and background, so there is no guarantee that what works with some will work with others. You know your wife best so you have to decide what approach will be best for you.

I think your wife is very tolerant and accepts crossdressing very well. The problem may be her insecurity and lack of knowledge, as you write, with what will other people say and do to you if they find out. I believe she loves you so much that she is afraid of what will happen to you and if she is going to loose you in the future because of crossdressing and transition.

I think you really need to make your wife sit down with you and tell her everything all at once. Even the questions you don’t know the answers to, and about where this will go in the future, you need to tell her that you don’t know. You need to tell her all that you know now and all that you want to do with this. I think that if you only tell her small parts of your story to protect her, it will tear her apart more and more each time something new comes up because then she really doesn’t know where this will end. I also have a strong believe that if you are totally honest with her she will also trust your story even more because you will talk to her with much more credibility. That will reassure her even more even if the truth will hurt at that moment. If you start to be careful to tell the hole truth she will feel that and make her even more insecure.

I escaped the DADT by writing my SO a really long letter. I prepared the letter for more than six months. I almost had to “force” her to read it because she fared what would come out of the box. She was so afraid in the start of the letter. I have always thought that in a relationship you shouldn’t write letters to each other, but you should be able to talk. In this situation I thought that if we only had a talk I knew I would forget some important issues. When our wife’s that are afraid of this is faced with these questions they don’t even know what to ask about. I therefor answered all the questions I had read about from other couples just to make shore she got her answers also to her unknown questions. My letter took away a lot of fear from my SO, and it has improved our relationship and trust in each other.

I really want to wish you both the best, and I hope you will keep us updated in the future. Read all the advices from the answers and find out what would be the best approach for both of you.

[Katya@]

Hi Tracii,

Just from my personal experience - when you don't want others to know, even forums don't feel safe for some.

[Tracii G]

Katya there comes a time when we all need to step out of our comfort zone and face our fears.
I'm sure most members here myself included had to make that leap of faith and join here to try and learn.
Someone unwilling to learn will never outgrow their fears.

[Rachel05]

Wow that is some read and you have massive sympathy from me and my support, I have been there with the underdressing conversation, it was a large step for my wife to take once she had found out that I dressed, she thought it was only in the house, then she discovered the underdressing and it really was a huge deal for her, it was a step on a step on a step

But the reality is no one notices, I underdress to some level most days now, usually just panties in summer, but hold up stockings in winter, I love the feeling, never ever tire of it and I was very self conscious of it to start but now it is just me and how I am and my wife learnt to tolerate it, I mean she still doesn't understand what drives a man to want to do what I do, I guess that is the life that a lot of us live

I am just a cross dresser like you and no wish to transition, I have been dressing now for 47 yrs now, so as I keep telling my wife, I think I know my own mind as a cross dresser by now

Hey, it is tough for the partners and I think if we could convince more of our SO's to come here and read if not discuss then they would see that many of us are just what we are and that is cross dressing men

No one said it would ever be easy

Good luck Camille and thank you for the share

[Misty Rae Pleasure]

Camille - The one thing that stands out in this forum is the varying degrees of crossdressing that occurs in our community. I too am married to a wonderful wife and have two awesome kids. They don't about my crossdressing as I keep it private and relegate to the confines of our home. I only dress up after everyone leaves the house and is sure that no one will return early. I would love to be able to confide in my wife and family, but I am unsure how they would react. The risk benifit ratio is not worth it to me. I can't tell you how smokin hot it would be to have wild hang from the ceiling sex with my wife all the while dressed as hot as she is. It's a fantasy, and unfortunely will probably have to stay that way. Although about a year ago we were talking and she told me how good pantyhose felt on her and I should try a pair on to see how it feels. Stupid me should have jumped at the chance. I am hoping one of these days the topic will come up again. I won't blow it this time. I get great pleasure out of crossdressing, but I can't put my desires over the good of my family. I so wish I could come out to them. I know this a lot about me, but offer my experiences only to let you know you have company. I too have found my boundaries like you. Hang in there girl.


Lady Pleasure

[UNDERDRESSER]

She's concerned about where all of this is going.....My wife had a very traumatic childhood, and one result of it is that she is very mistrusting of the world. She defaults to the worst possible outcomes in any situation, assuming only the worst in people. When I responded to the convention piece, asking what would scare her about it, she said some crazy conservative extremist person with a gun or bomb could take the whole place out (as an example).I would be concerned as well, after reading this, about where she is going to end up.


As much as I want those things though, they are not worth my marriage, or worth putting my wife though so much fear of losing me. Despite her concerns being very far fetched in my opinion, they are still real fears for her and cause her real hardship. At the same time, I grew up in a household with an extremely nervous and overprotective mother where everyone in the house restricted themselves to keep her feeling safe and happy. So this is all definitely striking a nerve with me. I didn't want to feel that way in my own home as an adult.I am not a psychologist, and I don't know your wife, but I would be concerned about, first, how bad this issue will get for her, second, how similar it could get to the situation you had with your Mother, and third, how much of life she is missing out on.

[Amy Fakley]

... So, it could be that your wife is genuinely overly concerned for your safety, but also concerned about her own place in society.

Women like to be proud of who their husbands are. A crossdresser is not on the list of things to be proud of.

This. Which isn't to say that those feelings are invalid, but it helps to be honest about these things (sometimes brutally).

It's hard to imagine an adult really being that concerned that your coworkers will ever catch a glimpse of your underwear. Unless you have a really unusual line of work, I guess.

I don't guess I have any advice, other than this. Maybe copy and paste this thread into an email and send it to her? Maybe that could be a gentle catalyst for starting a meaningful conversation.

[AngelaYVR]

Trust should work both ways.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Hi Camille,

The first thing that struck me about your post is that I kept thinking I was reading words written by a woman. You are so in touch with your feelings, so caring and kind, so sensitive, so emotional and so gentle. You seem willing and able to put your wife's feelings before your own, and although the obligatory result saddens you and leaves you unfulfilled, you are prepared to do it without resentment. What a wonderful husband you must be, to someone who has been so hurt in the past.

I wonder if it's the case that you are expressing such (traditionally) feminine qualities in every day life, that it compensates for the lack of crossdressing and enables you to cope, under what to many of us would be very challenging conditions.

You do seem very willing to put your wife's needs ahead of your own, and sometimes it's easy to fall into the pattern of pleasing others in order to avoid facing our own true desires and natures. It's a lot easier to be the clothing supplier to an Arctic expedition than it is to trek to the North Pole. I imagine that Sir Ranulph Fiennes is not an easy man to live with and that if he desired he would walk to the Pole in pink heels and a lacy bikini and to hell with his wife and what the Eskimos might think.

I agree with Deebra, that you should allow yourself a little more slack. Don't feel you have to tell another person everything, even if that person is your wife. It's your life too. This thing makes you very, very happy- do you really want to live with that much compromise?

I don't see why your wife shouldn't meet you halfway- perhaps you should take the lead a little more positively, rather than allowing her fears to limit both your lives.

Hugs, good luck!

Nikki

[Leslie Langford]

Camille, you're in a dark place right now, but given time and space, I am sure that things will work out for you eventually. Nothing is forever or absolutely set in stone - who would ever have foreseen in our lifetime the break-up of the Soviet Union, the dismantling of the Berlin Wall, and the West being all palsy-walsy with Communist China while they manufacture our iphones, keep Walmart in business, and generally call the shots on how the world economy and the global stock markets perform? You're already way ahead of some of us here who are in far more restrictive DADT relationships, so just give your wife the opportunity to process new information about your crossdressing evolution in a way that works for her, all the while keeping in mind the time-honored mantra of "baby steps, baby steps" that is a cornerstone of this forum.

I remember an "old school", Ed Sullivan Show era stand-up comedian once telling a joke about a little boy who wanted a bicycle for Christmas, but was unsure of how to ask for this given that his family was of very modest means. One of his friends then suggested that when his grandmother finally came around to asking him what his Christmas wish might be, he modestly reply that while getting a new bicycle would be ever so nice, what he really, really hoped for was world peace. Needless to say, he got the bicycle. ;)

The moral of the story here is that if you continue to demonstrate to your wife how important her feelings (and concerns) about your crossdressing are to you - and are willing to compromise your own needs in deference to hers - eventually the guilt pangs over being so hard-line will overtake her and she will relent, perhaps even meeting you part-way in the process. Yes, this may sound a bit manipulative, but then again, women have used guilt as a way of manipulating their menfolk to do their bidding since time immemorial, so what's fair is fair. :daydreaming: :)

Yes, relationships are all about negotiation, setting boundaries, and respecting the other person's values and points of view, but nowhere is it written that these agreements can't be revisited from time to time, nor be renegotiated as situations evolve or change

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Camille, I sure hope that your wife and you can come to some middle ground on this issue.:hugs:

[ReineD]

Allow me to try a new approach in terms of explaining why so many wives have a difficult time with this. Please keep an open mind. Although the CDing may or may not be at times sexual for you, the analogy speaks rather to a spouse's reaction to things they do not understand. You will need to be able to translate my analogy to fit your situation. If you can get through it without saying "but this isn't the same thing", then maybe my suggested solutions will help.

Let's just say that your wife was a marital counselor and in the course of her career she decided she wanted to become a sexual surrogate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_surrogate), which would involve being sexually intimate with men on a regular basis. In a hotel room. Few husbands would embrace this. They might question their wife's motives for wanting to engage in this particular form of therapy since there are many other directions that therapists can take in their helping professions. A husband might ask himself if his wife was sexually satisfied with him. It would also be natural to fear the development of an intimate relationship with another man which might eventually lead to divorce, or even if there wasn't a divorce, the possibility that his wife would experience greater sexual satisfaction with someone else. Depending on the husband, these things might work on him to the point where he began to construct his own explanations for his wife's motives and question the entire basis for their marriage.

So, what would need to happen in order for the husband to go along with this and stop being fearful? To begin with, lots of very open communication (answering all questions even if repeatedly) and reassurance. Also the husband would need to FEEL (more than see) that his relationship with his wife was unchanged, especially after a therapy session. The wife would need to give her husband full freedom to express his concerns whenever he needed to, so that he would know that his feelings were a priority to her. The husband would need to feel loved and a priority in his wife's life. These things are fairly easy to accomplish if the couple loves each other. But of equal importance is simply time. It is only through personal experience and the observation that things are unchanged, that we discover that what we feared most is not an issue after all.

The husband would need to see though, that his wife was unchanged on all levels. If she started with one client and was building her practice by taking on more and more men to have sex with, and the sessions with these clients took more and more time, it would be natural for the husband to feel a great deal of discomfort until his wife's schedule stabilized and he could witness for himself that his wife's profession had no impact on their personal interrelationship and that he still was very much her priority. It might be equally difficult if he witnessed a glow about her when she came home from one of her sessions. He might even not want all his friends to know that his wife regularly had sex with other men, even if he eventually came to understand that doing so had no impact on their relationship.

Translating this analogy back to you, it is difficult to ask a wife to walk through her fears bit by bit, step by step, especially when things are ramping up, but ultimately this is what is required to move forward … as long as you know that more crossdressing will not lead to wanting to come out to people in your lives. This is the turning point for many wives because of the social taboo that still exists in our society and because it indicates a switch from "this is what I do" to "this is who I am", if "this is who I am" means "woman".

[Stephanie47]

I did not have the time or inclination to read all the responses. I got as far as the posts attributing your wife's fears of discovery, etc to child hood trauma. Don't read too much into that as a way to explain a woman's negative reaction. Your wife has a justifiable fear. Too many people do not understand, and, choose to not take the time to understand what cross dressing is all about. You are fortunate to have a wife who does not go absolutely crazy about cross dressing. I'll bet she may think about the maid at the hotel finding you all dolled up and dead in bed from a heart attack. At least at home she can strip the clothing off you before the paramedics arrive.

I will agree with her that you upset the status quo without prior discussion. If you are to be discovered as a cross dresser the fall out may not be limited to just you. With women it seems to also be a reflection upon the woman: "What's wrong with her? Why does she want to be married to a cross dresser?"

Maybe your wife would be agreeable to taking a movie in with you when under dress....panty and hosiery.

[Teresa]

Camille,
I can fully understand your caution , you don't mention children but they make the whole thing much harder .
I know I'm going to be jumped on but sometimes keeping quiet is the best policy, I tried wearing stockings and suspenders etc, when photographing a wedding and regretted it simply because they proved too uncomfortable to physically work in !
You went to work underdressed as a try out why didn't you leave at one day of personal pleasure, you weren't breaking any rules !

I can tell you from experience that you will want more and will have to come totally clean about it eventually, and sadly there's never a right time to do that but it will come !

[Sarah-RT]

Hey camille, sorry to hear this story but thanks for sharing. As others have said, I can't offer much advice because only you know your wife. While things seem limited you still have the opportunity to dress, and perhaps you can have a discussion with your wife again about it. My mom too was worried about violence and danger, I assured her I understood it was a possibility but like any GG I had no intention of wandering the city at 3am, by myself or somewhere unsafe.
I drink far less when dressed and i would be more aware of my surroundings.
Maybe you could have a talk about that.

As for the not meeting a fellow forum member, I find that hard to pass off, when I go out to a restaurant I never listen to others conversations, if there was someone there who knew you to get the rumour back to your wife you would surely not discuss it in ear shot of them. I think you should try talking about that again, it's obviously for group support and sharing experiences, not different than an AA meeting.

Sarah x

[Maria 60]

Well I believe in "never say never". For some reason when I told my wife she didn't want me to wear pink, I was dying to wear a pink bra or pink panties but I don't know why for years she didn't want to hear about it, finally one day out of the blue she comes home and bought me pink panties, but that's just one situation and in everyone situation she seemed to come around in time. They just need time to feel comfortable with different situations, but that's my wife I can't say your wife will react the same. That's why we are here sharing our true life experiences and trying to shine some sun on our problems.

[Samantha Clark]

I don't have any advice but just want to thank you for sharing. I know that things will get better. My wife wrestles with similar fears and anxieties and sometimes it's harder for her than others.

Sometimes I'll feel like she has gone backwards on me and then, out of the blue she'll do something like she did yesterday when she handed me a flyer for a free face cream and eye serum. Wow I was floored ( in a happy way!).

Hope things get better soon.

[Kandi Robbins]

Beautifully written, thank you for sharing so honestly. Life certainly isn't fair. We cannot deny our needs to express our feminine sides and I can certainly understand our wives' trepidation. I am truly blessed with a wonderful wife who allows me to dress as I wish, but I have put up my own boundaries. While she has helped me with specific outfits, I try to dress when she is at work, remaining in her eyes, her husband. I am not sure if the situation were reversed, I would be as accepting. That certainly takes a big person. All I can say is you seem to be realistic about your situation and aware of the challenges. Here's to the next Camille day!

[JamieG]

Hi Camille. I know how difficult this is for you, but you are doing the right thing by involving your wife in these decisions and taking her feelings and fears seriously. A couple of thoughts: do you live in a fairly conservative or liberal town? Is it small or cosmopolitan? The chance of a going out en femme turning dangerous is far less in a liberal or cosmopolitan place, but if it is very conservative or small, then it could put you at risk. As for meeting others, does your CD friend has an SO that she is out to? If so, perhaps the four of you could meet for coffee or drinks (with both of you in drab)? One of the biggest breakthroughs for my wife was when we went to Christmas party hosted by a fellow CDer and in which other couples that included a CDer were also invited. No one was en femme, and it was just like any other get together with fun people. Of course, this strategy only works if the people are people you would hang out with even if you didn't have CDing in common.

[laurenp245]

I truly feel for you, you seem to be out of options! Just know that you are truly a lucky person to have a wife that understands your needs and is supportive at least to a point. Give it some time and I am sure she will eventually warm up to the idea of progressing a bit further. You are spot on when you say you're only comfortable moving forward with your wife's support, doing anything in secrecy will only lead to more heartache for certain. While there isn't much you can do to calm all of her worries, some occasional reassurance may go a long way. Maybe when the time is right you can invite her to meet up with your friend along with you? That might help ease any fears she may have? Just a thought.

*Big Hugs*

<3 Lauren

[Robin414]

Hi Camille, thank you for the post, we're here to listen if nothing else! Although I can't relate directly I don't doubt the Caitly Jenner sensationalism is a factor, a super man like Bruce Jenner coming out as a woman I don't doubt stirs up some thoughts in a lot of married GGs (I wonder if David Beckham is getting curious glances lately). I can't (and wont) offer any advice but I do hear you!

[Karen RHT]

Well I believe in "never say never". For some reason when I told my wife she didn't want me to wear pink, I was dying to wear a pink bra or pink panties but I don't know why for years she didn't want to hear about it, finally one day out of the blue she comes home and bought me pink panties, but that's just one situation and in everyone situation she seemed to come around in time. They just need time to feel comfortable with different situations, but that's my wife I can't say your wife will react the same. That's why we are here sharing our true life experiences and trying to shine some sun on our problems.

Couldn't agree with you more Maria, some people just take a rather long time to accept, process, and get comfortable with new ideas or "change" in general. Over 40 years ago my wife refused to even talk with me about my crossdressing, and remained steadfast in her ways for many years afterward. About 3 years ago she made a significant reversal in her thought process, and agreed to explore my crossdressing with me. I still have difficulty getting her to just sit and talk about things with an open mind, but we're no longer in a DADT relationship. These days she doesn't have a problem with me dressing as I please around the house, she shops for Karen with and even without me, she'll tell me if she thinks something does/doesn't look good on me, she's even offered me lipsticks she bought, but didn't like afterwards, and is willing to share some of her jewelry and other accessories with me. She's still uneasy about some things, but we continue to move slowly forward.


Karen

[Nadya]

Thank you for sharing this with all of us. My wife is very protective as well. She does worry when I go out dressed that I'll get beaten up or attacked so that's completely understandable. My wife and I do have a lot to still work through about me. I originally thought I was a crossdresser but after some therapy and lots of reflection, I feel that I would like to at least start taking hormones because what I've been telling myself subconsciously is that I don't want to hurt anyone and crossdressing is not a permanent change. In reality, it wasn't going to make me happy to be a temporary woman. Anyway, I only say this not because I think you'll go down this path as well but her concerns about where you go after this are legitimate and that she might need help understanding where you are on the transgender spectrum. As with any relationship where there's a concern about between two sides of an issue, there has to be some middle ground that you both can compromise on. Talking through it is probably the best way to ensure you are both happy. Your wife sounds like a wonderful person to be accepting. Good luck and I hope things turn out well. <3 :hugs:

[Tina_gm]

1st, good job on the open honest communication. Both from her and from you. You both know where you are at with yourselves and each other. My take on this, is that your dressing had up until this point, a very controlled environment, set up by the both of you I am assuming, in that this (generic) is what you do, and this (generic) is where it happens. A progression of your cding happened, where you advanced the where it happened, to anywhere. Even though it was underdressing, and know one else knew, the CDing, still became public, in a way. Also, a potential CD friend was being lined up. With the latter, simply that it meant less time with her, and more time with your CD friend. And I would imagine that a CD friend can be very difficult and confusing for many partners. Not really a regular male friend.... even though the friendship may be strictly platonic, but it is with a man, who is also into dressing as a woman. How does a partner understand or even begin to define a friendship of that nature? Scary is certainly a reasonable reaction, especially when such a friendship was not present.

The underdressing at work, aside from a reasonable fear of accidental or perhaps incidental discovery, but that it too is a progression. Now, CDing for you isn't just in the hotel room, and it is happening in a way, all day long, wherever you are. If that makes you feel good, then, it can only stand to reason she may wonder, what next? There was a set boundary for you with this, and the CDing you did broke free from this. Now out of the fish bowl, she really does not have a boundary in which she can internally hang on to.

I am not trying to discourage you, or say you did wrong, because you were honest about your desires and what you did, which I am thinking was not so much a break of an agreement, but just a progression from what was to something greater. I am just trying to think of how this new experience with your CDing likely effects your wife. It is good that both of you with your open communication know what and where each other are at. It is good too that you are respecting your wife and not progressing without the communication, and are respecting her comfort zone as well. In time, maybe lots of it, after more communication, she may not feel so fearful. Keep up the good open honesty and communication, and respect. In the bigger picture in life, it sounds to me that she is your 1st priority and you are not gambling your marriage on something you feel is not an absolute necessity.

Life is tough. As most good parents will often sacrifice so much of their time for their kids, and money too of course. We sacrifice for our partners, for our employment, for other friends and family members. Life can be quite the balancing act. CDing makes that already high wire act ever more challenging.

[Confucius]

I was wondering... What would happen if you let your wife set the boundaries to your crossdressing?

I know it worked for me. My wife was insecure, worried about where my crossdressing was going. She was worried that I may transition someday. So I told her that I love her and she would always put her first in my life. I let her know that I love to crossdressing - it just makes me happy. She started buying my crossdressing clothes, setting time when I could crossdress. I'm happy with the situation, and she feels that things are under control.

[Camille15]

So my wife and I spoke more about this the other day. I expressed to her my desire to be out in the world more, and how it saddened me to think I wouldn't ever. We also had another, deeper conversation about how I am not TS, and am also not interested in being with guys. Some requests by me for trying role reversal in the bedroom recently had her concerned it might be otherwise and had led her to wonder where this was all going. So when I then mentioned the panties at work, she freaked. She seems more at ease now after I explained things more, and reiterated the difference between gender identity and sexual preference, as well as the spectrum of CD'ers and where I fit in. I also told her about a recent thread on this forum called "Just a crossdresser", which she said she wants to read, so I printed her a copy to read.

I took the advice of someone on the previous thread and was truthful with her about how far I'd want to take this, rather than revealing things slowly. She now knows the limit I want to take this to, which is going out to support groups or gatherings, or being out but in an area that's "safe" and where I am extremely unlikely to run into anyone I know. And she seemed to understand my need to do so and be out in the world, and not just sit pretty in a hotel room. She's feeling better about all that. She said she's comfortable with me going out in the context of a CD/TG support group gathering, rather than just meeting an individual from this forum that I don't really know, in an arbitrary place. On the flip side, we agreed to no more underdressing at work, since for her that's too risky.

I told her to let this all sit for awhile, incase she changes her mind. But I now have at least have a glimmer of hope that Camille might see the light of day (or night). Perhaps an outing is indeed in my future, provided it was to a location she felt comfortable with, and was part of some kind of "support group" outing or meeting. I've read about these types of groups in other cities for sure, though surprisingly I haven't found anything closer to the Bay Area than Sacramento (the "river city gems").

Camille

[Stephanie47]

There is no reason she cannot go along with you to Sacramento. You can make a weekend trip. She can go shopping while you attend the meeting. You can share some time together outside of cross dressing.

[kimdl93]

I can't help you with support group meetings in your area, but I do want to commend you for taking a direct approach to dealing with your wife's concerns and your needs. One thing you probably should keep in mind is that over time, things will change, both in your interests and perhaps in her attitude. I hope all the changes will be for the better!

[IamWren]

Hey Camille, Thank you for posting an update. i'm so glad to hear that she seems to be a little more at ease and you as well. Sounds like a little give and take was done and you both have enough to feel ok. Hopefully in time she can see and truly feel confident that she'll have the partner she married and there is no need to worry. And who knows.... maybe in time she'll go on an outing with you and find Camille to be a really cool girl friend to hang out with.

[Nadya]

I'm happy that you were able to talk some more about this. I hope that with this compromise you both can be happy. :)

[Kevyn53]

My wife and I have an agreement that I will dress at home occasionally and if I'm going to dress out, we go to another city. the main one we've gone to is 3 hours away and very unlikely that we're going to run into anyone we know. The screwy thing is that one time I was dressed in another town and we went into a used clothing store and ran into a whole bunch of people from our home town. My wife was immediately recognized. They all asked where I was and my wife told them I was right behind her. They didn't recognize me at all. If I hadn't been with her I could have completely blown by them with no problem. She had a story that I was going to a "thing" with a bunch of drag queens and we all had to dress up for it. They bought it.

Find a place where you and your wife can be away from the pressure. Farther away is probably better.

[Marcelle]

Hi Camille,

Sorry I did not get a chance to respond to your last post but by the time I saw it, sage advice had already been dispensed and I see from this post you took said advice. Once the 500 pound elephant has been dealt with (i.e., your wife knows) then honesty in all aspects of what you do from that point forward is the best option - which you have done :). However, you also need to keep the communication lines open to ensure there is no misconception on yours or wife's part as things progress and you head out for your first support group meeting. I found when my wife and I were navigating these waters early, if we did not take time to discuss things and one of us had a bad day at work (non-CD related) it was easy for the other misconstrue that as a CD related issue because we did not talk about it. As well, if you find things progressing even further, you need to go back to the well before it becomes an issue. The key thing now is as you said "let is sit for awhile" allow her to digest the information then move forward in your agreed upon direction.

Cheers

Isha

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Camille, You need to get her on this forum and into the FAB section:hugs:

[Nikkilovesdresses]

You're wise to print a particular thread for her to read rather than encouraging her to view the forum. Plenty of threads here would scare the crap out of her, I fear.

[Katey888]

Sounds like a sensible approach Camille... Slow and steady is the right way now... :hugs:

With Nikki's words echoing in my ears, even with that one thread I think it is worth reiterating that we are all individuals and no one experience or motivations why we do this seems to be exactly the same for everyone - and try to keep in your mind how this will continue to look for her, probably for some time: you present as an attractive, young woman - and that in itself is probably enough to keep triggering the 'why' question in her mind - so do keep reassuring her and being open... :)

Good luck with the support group - I would have thought you'd have had plentiful options in the Bay Area given its history of acceptance... :confused:

Katey x

[Ceera]

Sounds like a very promising development! From what you've said, I don't think your CD activities would pose any issues with your relationship with her, so that is a strong point on your favor for success at gaining her acceptance. I think that the fear of losing 'the man she married' is the biggest issue that causes trouble for married CD/TG folks.

Best of luck as you continue your journey!

[Krisi]

Thinking you are gay and thinking you may want to become a woman are the first thoughts most wives have when we "come out". You have to reassure them with your words and with your actions.

Trying to take crossdressing into the bedroom is a big mistake. Perhaps you can do it once she gets used you seeing you dressed as a woman, perhaps not. o it on her timetable, not yours. Many women will never accept this and that's understandable. If you were not a crossdresser, how would you react if your wife wanted to put on a fake beard and mustache, bind her breasts, strap on a ***** and get in bed with you?

[St. Eve]

Hi Camille

Thanks for the update! I congratulate you on your choice to be honest and work for compromise in your relationship.

I tried it secret for 15 years, then abstinence for 6 years. Since May of this year, I am now out to my SO and best friends. I am also taking small steps in working towards being in the public as Eve. The first two choices had their benefits and made it "easier." BUT, now coming out, I have the greatest internal peace about being known for who I really am - even it the path seems harder, it does not matter because I feel inner peace.

Good luck on your continuing journey.

Peace
Eve

[Suzanne F]

Camille
There are several of us that go out in San Francisco on a regular basis. I am transitioning but some of the others are CD. You should come out with us and invite your wife. My wife and another girls wife come sometimes. If not we could meet at a Gems event as I go once in awhile. Good luck!
Suzanne

[Paulette]

Camille the River City Gems offers a wonderful opportunity for you and your wife to enjoy your feminine expression in a safe and nurturing environment. There are several cis women who attend the Gems functions and all are willing to share their experiences. Our current President is a cis gendered female and wife of one of our members.

[ReineD]

I took the advice of someone on the previous thread and was truthful with her

I'm so glad that you spelled things out for her. :)

[jenniferinsf]

camille

let me offer my full support to you in regards to your relationship with your wife and your willingness to share with us.

while my wife is supportive she is also unwilling in joining the forum. she and i are who we are and we will work it out between ourselves is our approach. i dress a lot and go out a lot, today we talked about her going out with me fully dressed (as opposed to femme lite or femme casual). like you, she and i have agreed our relationship is paramount and we are struggling to bend toward each other as much as we can without breaking the span of time we have spent together.

i hear your feelings about your mourning and hope that a big hug will help

jennifer

[Camille15]

camille

i am in sf and recently joined tans gender support group via meet up http://www.makeyourownjeans.com/custom-jeans?zenid=853290119ba21a82eeca612e2d9e0407

Thanks Jennifer. But is that the right link you meant to post? ;)


Camille the River City Gems offers a wonderful opportunity for you and your wife to enjoy your feminine expression in a safe and nurturing environment. There are several cis women who attend the Gems functions and all are willing to share their experiences. Our current President is a cis gendered female and wife of one of our members.

Thanks Paulette. I doubt my wife would come, at least at first. Do you have many members who come up from the SF Bay Area to Sacramento for events? If so, where do they usually change? Just a hotel nearby? Also, what's the average age of members? It would be nice to connect with CD'ers in my own age range (early 30's to early 40's).

Camille

[Suzie Petersen]

Camille,

You are doing good! Being honest, open and considerate is a very good approach. As hard as it might be sometimes, communication is the key to most things in a relationship.


And she seemed to understand my need to do so and be out in the world, and not just sit pretty in a hotel room. She's feeling better about all that. She said she's comfortable with me going out in the context of a CD/TG support group gathering, rather than just meeting an individual from this forum that I don't really know, in an arbitrary place. On the flip side, we agreed to no more underdressing at work, since for her that's too risky.

First off, dont be surprised if she suddenly change her opinion about this again. It can be very emotional for a wife to deal with this and what might be OK today, might not be OK a month from now.

Second, the thought of you meeting with an unknown person leaves all sorts of things up to the imagination. It is not difficult to understand why that might leave your wife with some concerns, no matter how innocent it seems to you. It is like if your wife told you she was going to meet up with this guy from work who really understand her, just for a chat of course! They are going to meet at this hotel downtown and talk about some things!
While this should be perfectly acceptable in a trusting relationship, for most of us husbands, it will leave a little bit of uncertainty in the back of our minds. It is no different for your wife if you want to meet with someone she perceives as another female, nomatter how sincere and innocent the purpose of the meeting is to you.

The group meetings or conventions on the other hand is a different thing. Some might still suspect that it can be a cover for something else, but I dont think it is the immediate thought, as it could be with a one-on-one meeting.

The fact that your wife is not interested in joining this forum is also not surprising to me. My wife was the save way, she didnt want to talk to people she felt was going to try to convince her of something she didnt want to be convinced about. She was not looking for a way to learn to accept or understand, she was solely looking for a way to make it go away. With that in mind, it is not hard to see why joining a "support" group of any sort is not the logical thing to do.

About the "underdressing at work". Now that you have made that promise, do yourself a big favor and just dont do it. Trust is such a fragile thing and if she sees that you can agree on boundaries, and you actually respect them, she will have a much easier time accepting other promises from you. Time and time again, we hear of people bending the rules or forgetting where the lines were drawn and it always lead to bad things. Trust is a very valuable thing and it can be lost forever in a split second.

- Suzie

[sfwarbonnet]

Camille,

Don’t be surprised if she changes her mind; GG’s tend to do that. What is OK with her today may not be OK tomorrow.

Wearing a bra would exceed my wife’s current limits, even though there is a raison d’etre. Hopefully her attitude will change, as it has for panties, nylons, slips, and women’s pants. I have found the following acceptable for underdressing:

!) Slacks: Women’s pull on pants are much easier to put on than men’s belted pants. They do not need a fake fly, as the absence of it is usually not apparent, but I prefer non-figured and solid color, non-pastel pants so they are not readily identified as women’s clothing.

2) Panties: Underwear with a fly is unnecessary with womens pull-on pants. Although there are no-fly briefs in the men’s department, women’s full-cut briefs work just as well, and are often cheaper.

3) Slips: Shirttails tend to readily pull out of pull on pants. This can expose panty and pantyhose tops. A “solution” is to wear a full slip that is short enough to be worn with slacks. Also slips are usually made of material that makes it easier to pull on and straighten pants.

4) Bra: Although wearing a bra in public in “boy” mode can make one nervous and it is a challenge to “hide” it, wearing a bra can make one feel feminine and can be practical in “boy’ mode to keep non-adjustable straps on a slip from falling off the shoulders.

5) Nylons: Although wearing them in public can also make one nervous, an MD suggested that I wear pantyhose to avoid the indentation in my lower legs that mid-calf or knee-high socks make. Pantyhose do not require anything that is not also needed with women’s pull-on pants. Opaque ones are best, as they aren't readily identified as women's hosiery, but that isn't necessary and sheer nylons are OK and are more available. I actually prefer thigh highs as they are easier to put on than pantyhose, they do not need to be lowered to go to the bathroom, and only one leg needs to be thrown out when a run becomes apparent.

Finding women’s clothes that fit a GM is a challenge, as a bust and an hourglass figure are often presumed in women’s clothes. Particular examples are all-in-ones and garter belts. In the former, if one gets a large bandwidth, the cups are usually too large for underdressing, and garter belts, which are supposed to keep stockings from falling down, often fall down themselves as GM’s usually do not have a large difference between waist and hip measurements. For me, a short 18” slip with no bust darts makes an OK undershirt, although most of my shirts are 42-44 and narrow, non-adjustable straps on a slip fall off my shoulders (probably due to lack of boobs) unless I wear a bra with adjustable straps. To

I also now want to present as a female in public, but that too would exceed the current level of my wife’s acceptance. Plan B is to dress at the Vegas Star Trek con in the skant uniform “aka a minidress” worn by both males and females in Escape to Farpoint in TNG unless I can identify a transwoman or CD in Star Trek.

As for you, respect her limits, but don’t make promises that you may not be able to keep. CDing tends to progress – when underdressing becomes “normal”, we usually want to take the next step.

[Saikotsu]

Don't assume that you're forever frozen in this situation. Keep open the channels of communication with your wife so that you can express your needs and interests, and she can deal, over time, with her fears. Many people find change threatening,nut over time the fears prove unfounded. Give her time and patience.

I agree. Give her time to adjust and deal with her fears. Keep the communication open and realize that things can get better. Baby steps. The wait can seem agonizing, but it's worth it. Best of luck

[raeleen]

Hi Camille,

I just joined the forum and came across this post. I feel for you and find myself in much the same situation. My wife is supportive, but nervous as I begin exploring this part of my identity. I've just recently gone out in public to a support group meeting for the first time, and it was amazing to meet other girls. But working up to that step with her was a slow gradual process. Even now I know that she gets uncomfortable anytime we begin talking about dressing.

Stay open with her. Don't lie! And keep communicating. I agree that things can change, and as the two of you continue on this journey, you may find her position shifting. Good luck and big hugs from a fellow girl. I would love to talk with you more if you're interested. I'm looking to connect with other cd's in my age range (late 30's) and chat about our experiences/challenges.

Hugs,
Raeleen

[RedheadedHeathen]

Hello Miss Camille,

I finally registered here and stopped lurking just so I could discuss a different perspective with you. (That's why I'm late to the conversation, I had to register and be approved.)

I’m a GG who enjoys playing in the CD world. I have noticed that when gurls try something new they tend to say *I* don’t like it when in reality I’ve only shared concerns and/or a critique. Then they stop doing it because *I* don’t like it and they want to keep me happy and that isn't at all what *I* wanted. CDers, who have yet to build up their confidence, have a tendency to look for a reason to quit. Sometimes they make up a reason to quit and other times someone in their life supplies them with a reason to do so. I am in no way saying that your partner doesn’t have legitimate concerns and you shouldn’t address them. I’m saying make sure that you weren’t looking for a reason to quit something new, exciting, and a little scary, all along. Especially if it’s something that you enjoy.

Keep in mind that I'm just some weirdo on the Internet and do not know your actual life at all.