important learning about partial dressing (man in a dress)

[pamela7]

My recent adventures are documented on another thread, but i feel its important to separately bring out learning and conclusion from the experience of going out fully clothed in ladies clothing but crucially not made up and with no wig.

Yesterday I was with a female client all day, first time they've seen or known about my CD. They loved it, they felt my feminine was coming fully through. I'd done my nails but my face/head was not disguised. We finished the day by going to a local pub. I walk in, a man coming the other way does a double then a triple take and finally coughs out "nice one". There are some smiles around, but all is well, beyond well in fact. I have women I've never met before coming up to me, giving me a hug, I have men relating to me in non-aggressive ways, the barmaid comes out to give me a hug. I mean life is/was just so friendly.

Why? If I were fully dressing (trying to pass), then I'm out to deceive the world as to my sexual nature (cf scenes in "how to lose friends and alienate people"), I'm challenging men's suppressed homosexuality, I'm challenging women's place. By being a "man dressed as he damn well pleases" I'm being in my own power but no threat to anyone, in fact I'm empowering others to be themselves. It's as simple as a women wearing men's clothes. She's not wearing a false moustache and false-beard to deceive. So it does not threaten society in the same way full-on CD-ing does. In the privacy of home, or going to CD groups, yes, go the whole way, but I reckon we can out ourselves with this halfway house safely and securely because we are being ourselves.

Okay folks, comments appreciated!

xxx one very happy Pamela

[Teresa]

Pamela,
All my outing experiences have been a guy in a dress Ok not face to face as you but did have interaction between the people I met.
I'm still not convinced on this one but may have to find out at some point as marriage separation looks as if it's going to happen. I know I will have to simplify things , a less fussy wig and lighter makeup but I hate the feeling of being OK below the neckline and then looking as if someone has stuck the wrong head on the body !
To fully dress is not intended to fool or upset anyone , I just need to do it , they are going to pass comment no matter how you choose to do it .

[Melanie 0339]

I'm not so sure about this I think every girl is different I'm fairly sure most girls who go out in public fully dressed aren't doing it to challenge men's suppressed homosexuality or challenge a woman's place, they do it because that's who they are whether it's completely dressed up or just wearing a pair of heels. I'm glad you've found a look that makes you feel comfortable out and about. I've often contemplated going out just wearing a dress but I'm too self conscious to just be a man in a dress, I'm currently planning on going out in mid October completely made up I'm not doing it to intentionally deceive anyone I'm doing it because that's who I feel I am, if I pass then great if I don't then oh well. Like I said earlier all girls are different xxx

[kimdl93]

I would beg to differ on one point. If a person is out fully dressed and seeking to be seen as a woman, one's birth gender is being disguised, not one' sexual nature. Your sexual preferences aren't at play although some may erroneously associate gender presentation and sexuality.

[Krisi]

I would say you are overthinking things. Deceiving the world? Perhaps, but innocently. Now if you dress as a woman and go to bars and pick up men and have sex with them or get them to buy you dinks, that's deception. Walking down the street minding your own business, not so much.

If you walk around town as a man in a dress, that's your right, but people will make assumptions about you. Mostly negative assumptions. If you're happy doing this, go ahead. It's not something I would do. It would embarrass my wife for starters.

[Marcelle]

. . . If I were fully dressing (trying to pass), then I'm out to deceive the world as to my sexual nature (cf scenes in "how to lose friends and alienate people"), I'm challenging men's suppressed homosexuality, I'm challenging women's place. By being a "man dressed as he damn well pleases" I'm being in my own power but no threat to anyone, in fact I'm empowering others to be themselves. It's as simple as a women wearing men's clothes. She's not wearing a false moustache and false-beard to deceive. So it does not threaten society in the same way full-on CD-ing does. In the privacy of home, or going to CD groups, yes, go the whole way, but I reckon we can out ourselves with this halfway house safely and securely because we are being ourselves.

Hi Pamela,

I am glad to read you are out doing what you need to do and gaining confidence with each outing is a great thing for sure . . . CONGRATS :). Now I am going to take a bit of exception to your above comment but I am sure you meant this "from your POV as it pertains to you" and not all who water here?

There are many ways to do this thing to which we all share some common ground. For you and others here, it is a dude in a dress and owning it. For others it is about dressing up and feeling good (closeted, in public or wherever) and for others it is about aligning gender identity with self. I for one am not out to deceive the world around me . . . indeed it is highly unlikely anyone sees me as a genetic woman. I am not out to challenge men's suppressed homosexuality or challenge a woman's place . . . to be honest not really sure what you are alluding to with either concept (e.g., all men are inherently homosexual and women have a place in relation to what?). I am out to be me and only me irrespective of how the world sees me.

Just to confirm . . . not mad, upset or disconcerted with your comments . . . only providing comments as you requested :)

Cheers

Isha

[pamela7]

society sometimes shifts quickly. By way of example, there was a time when dog mess littered our pavements (sidewalks) and kerbsides, and in like a year it all shifted, partly through campaigns about the danger of small children being blinded by germs in the mess. Now there are a few social paraihs who still mess but by and large, its over now. Earlier this year a major london store - Selfridges - opened all their 3 floors of clothing department to all (no longer gender-labelled), indicated a sea-change in the acceptance of who wears which clothes. This is a wave of social change, Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is but one part of the wave, and men are reclaiming the right to wear dresses and lovely fabrics. Long may it continue.

The point is: the time for hiding is over, or nearly over depending on location.

To Isha: Hi, I don't mean we're intentionally deceiving, I mean it gives the appearance of deceiving, and that is a potential cause of offense. I'm very aware of your encounter with some hoodlums, and I'm not saying that dressing halfway would have avoided that, and I'm not saying to go against anyone's needs. What I'm saying is that so far its working for me to be the man in a dress. I don't need to be "ma'am'd".

[St. Eve]

Hi Pamela

Thanks for the thread. Lately, I have realized there is more than just Eve inside. There is also "guy in a dress."
Eve wants to be in the world as a women (passing or not - though passing is the dream.) She wants to be greeted and treated like a women.
Guy in a dress is the part of me that fully accepts my maleness and does not care about what "gender" I am - especially if that perception is based on cultural ideals of what is Male or Female. In fact, I think Guy in a dress wants to challenge cultural gender perception and show the world that I am really neither all male or all female. If I prefer women's clothing than by golly that is what I get to wear.

Honestly, I have only the smallest experience with Guy in a dress out in the world and no experience with Eve out in the world. I am looking forward to the great unfolding as I move into the world in a different way in the coming months and years.

Peace
Eve

[deebra]

You are wrong, a CD does not fully dress to deceive the world, their intent is to present and feel like a woman.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

dream on Pamela.....

and as deebra points out your assertion about cd'ing is so wrong its borderline offensive
and so is your thought on sexuality

you sound to me like you are trying out the old saw of
'my way is better than your way" ..it doesnt work that way

nothing wrong with guy in a dress, its what you are saying thats just flat out wrong..

[Krisi]

We have here, a series of responses from people with very different backgrounds and from very different parts of the world, most assuming that everyone else is in their same situation. This is not the case. There are many parts of the world where a male dressing as a woman is illegal and punishable by death in extreme cases. There are other parts of the world where a man walking around in a dress could be subject to harassment by others and even physical violence. There may or may not be laws against this but laws don't stop it from happening.

Many of us fear losing our jobs or families if we are discovered crossdressing. Going out in public as a man in a dress makes us recognizable. If you are OK with that and the other risks, fine, it's your choice.

Reality is reality and posting something different on a crossdressing forum doesn't change this.

[Ineke Vashon]

There are some smiles around, but all is well, beyond well in fact. I have women I've never met before coming up to me, giving me a hug, I have men relating to me in non-aggressive ways, the barmaid comes out to give me a hug. I mean life is/was just so friendly.

xxx one very happy Pamela

Pamela - Is it possible that modern attitudes in the UK are more permissive and advanced than, for instance, in the US, especially in the West, "where bison (used to) roam"

Ineke

[Suzie Petersen]

Pamela,

The following is to be considered my personal opinions and comments to your post, it is not an attack on you or anyone else who chose to do what you do. But, I realize it might seem like that.
I believe people should be allowed to do what they want, as long as it doesnt hurt other people.

But .... you are mistaking if you think your lifestyle is representative in general of the people who visit this forum!
I dont think you are trying to say that everybody is like you and should just do what you do, and I do believe you are honestly trying to tell the story that we often worry for no reason. But your experiences with mixing gender specific clothing and presentation and your theory that this is indicative of a changing world where CD/TS/TG people can more freely express their feelings of more or less belonging to the opposite gender, is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

It is possible that people react to you with a smile and go out of their way to give you a hug, all because they feel you are breaking down gender barriers and paving the way for people to express themselves as they feel. But my guess is that the reactions you see is more likely that people are laughing at you and want to soften it up with a smile and a hug.
I think people very likely see a purposefully mixed up gender presentation as a joke, a provocation or an attempt to attract attention, and I think many people within the TS, TG, CD community will feel that such displays is a bit like mocking them.

Personally, I would not be caught dead going out into the world with a mixed presentation like that and frankly, I dont want to be associated with it either. If my wife was to point to a person presenting like that, asking me if thats what I wanted to do, I would tell her that it had absolutely nothing to do with what I feel inside, although I cannot necessarily describe what it is I feel, and no, i would not want to do that.

Some of the other things in your OP have me puzzled a well:


I'm challenging men's suppressed homosexuality, I'm challenging women's place.

First, I dont know what you really mean by either of those statements, but my immediate reaction is that No, you are not, you are making fun of them, both!

We have not met, but reading your posts I am guessing that you are a very bubbly, open and approachable person when out and about. I think you are attracting a lot of attention by your display, and I am guessing that you seek the connection with people who react to your presentation. That is likely why you walk away with fond memories of smiles, hugs and approval as the outcome of your interaction with people.
Someone else doing what you write about doing, but with a shy personality, someone just trying to go unnoticed and who does not want to become the center of attention in every situation, would likely experience something very different! My guess is that person would instead face ridicule, mocking and potentially physical harm, in the exact same places where you attract smiles.

The world react very differently to people all depending on how people react to the world.

- Suzie

[pamela7]

Please try to read between my lines and also read the intent. Clearly the folk there were not making fun, I can feel the difference, when someone is uncomfortable or faking - it's called being an empath, feeling the feelings, something many males are cut-off from. My point is that by attempting to pass I'm placing myself as a female, leading to a male to perhaps "try it on" (not saying that's right but it happens), leading to discovery that its a dude in a dress, leading to upset, shock, challenge as to the person's sense of sexuality.

I don't care what someone's orientation is; we're all just people. If I were making fun, then I'd get responses accordingly, whereas I get acceptance from hetero and LGB. I'm representing something that IS working for me, I'm suggesting others might like to try it, and I'm suggesting some reasons why many people seem to be so T-hateful. I believe, from my own psychological researches, that ancient society was polyamorous, primarily homosexual, with hetero reserved for procreation only. I believe that's our nature, and that the suppression over 1000's of years comes with huge anger and therefore consequences when it it touched upon.

[heatherdress]

Pamela: Another thought - you mentioned that you were with a female client, that you spent the day with them (or her) wearing a dress, that they loved it, and that they felt your feminine side was coming through fully.

Usually, it is always, always, always, always best to keep different or unusual behaviors, beliefs and activities, out of the workplace. Crossdressing activities during work may feel good and even appear to be accepted or within company policy, but may result in adverse consequences. People who act or behave "different" may experience negative responses from bosses and co-workers. You are, unfortunately, usually hired to do a job, not to make personal statements. I have seen people get passed over for promotion, get lower performance ratings, get a reduced annual pay raise, be the subject of complaints made by others, get transferred, and a few even lost their jobs - because they were viewed as odd, or weird or different.

I don't condone that or think it right, but that's how it is, unfortunately.

Unless you own your own business, or work for a company or organization which encourages individuals to express themselves openly, or if you are uniquely talented and indispensable at work - it is usually best to not to do things that might be considered "different", "weird", "non-professional" by others or might make them feel uncomfortable.

You can dress however you want to, but if it is outside the "normal" appearance and corporate attire of your colleagues, you are taking a risk. You don't want to be viewed as an employee who puts their own self-interests before their work duties and responsibilities. Once again, I am not saying that you do that, but you risk that your bosses, colleagues and clients might.

I personally support open personal expression and the joy of dressing and presenting as we want to, but I suggest that the workplace, co-workers and clients may be where we demonstrate personal behaviors and beliefs that are different.

[Stephanie47]

On this site I have seen pictures of some extremely attractive cross dressers who do not need a wig to cover their heads. They have an abundance of hair..lovely hair. Years ago I had a lot of blond hair. My wife loved the curls. But, alas, as genetics and time took its toll that hair is gone. I would not even mind if my hair were still there are gray like a lot of men my age. But, that's not to be.

So, if I were to wear a pretty dress, hosiery and heels, makeup and had shoulder length hair, am I participating in a deception? My personal preference is no facial hair even as a male.

It may depend upon where one lives and what establishments a cross dresser chooses to enter or where to walk, but, I really do not think people are going to be anymore accepting of a man in a dress or a cross dresser trying to pass as a woman. I think I recently voiced on another thread that many people notice and really do not voice an opinion. They may make a mental note; "Oh, there's a man in a dress" or "There's a cross dresser!" Sure, any person you encounter may give the impression of acceptance, but, there is really no way to judge acceptance when the person is speaking in private.

As one has stated in a comment before me, many cross dressers cannot test the waters of acceptability in the work place as an employee. Even in my liberal progressive state the law protects those who choose to present as the opposite sex, but, that will not at all confer personal acceptability. I find society is more accepting of those transitioning and gays & lesbians than cross dressers.

If it works for you, enjoy.

[AbigailJordan]

Most employers in the UK now have anti-discrimination policies that specifically reference both gender and gender identity. The larger the company, the more likely this is, and despite everyones horror stories about them "finding a way" to get rid, you'll find that over here, companies actively and aggressively enforce these policies.

Many of them do not even make a distinction between male and female attire in the dress code, i.e. "Smart trousers or skirt/office dress with shirt/blouse, tie optional. footwear smart, heels 2" maximum".

Pamela, I haven't yet gone as far as wearing a dress in guy mode, but I do regularly wear my girl shoes, girl tops and cardies etc when going out, I no longer try to disguise jumpsuits with a jacket etc.. only had the one person ask about it so far. I think perhaps different parts of society accept the different sides.. for some it's easier to "accept" that a man may feel like a woman and wish to transform or transition to fit than it is to think of a guy wearing a dress. For others, the more simplistic "fetish" explanation is easier to understand and the whole "en femme" thing just crazy to contemplate.

[Katey888]

I had a feeling this might blossom into an interesting discussion... :D

First of all Pamela, can I just say how happy I am that you're happy with what you're doing. :cheer: If all of us could achieve that degree of self-satisfaction then I think that would be a jolly Good Thing indeed! Good for you! :)

Now, you did invite comments and so I'd like to offer a slightly different hypothesis and perspective with my UK 'guy' hat on... and guy clothes as well, actually... ;)

You're presenting as a guy (head) in a dress (NDCD - Neck-Down CDer) - my instantaneous reaction to that in a pub (even being a CD) would be that you're simply eccentric... Not too dissimilar as if you were dressed as SpongeBob Squarepants... and the British generally have great affection, even idolatry, for eccentrics... Most would think you were an artist of some sort, and the vast majority of Brits would be very, very accepting and laid back about an eccentric guy in a dress, hence the smiles and accepting comments. Hugs from women...? Similar expression to the male comments - as an initial reaction it's affirming that you're brave enough to dress how you feel... but they probably just think you're a little wacko... Now, before anyone gets offended let me express again my admiration for anyone who does this and feels the motivation to do it in this way. I'm just trying to give an alternate guy perspective on what Pamela has experienced, but long may you all have good experiences (anyway, you NDCDs probably think we're all a little barmy too, so we're quits... :p)

The rest of what you say might be your own experience, but I think using the expression 'conclusion' is a little over confident.

If you had dressed that way in any of the companies I have worked you would have been fired. You can do this because you have your own business (I believe) and that probably is something very specialised and/or possibly alternative in its nature, where individual expression is accepted - I don't believe acceptance would be widespread.

I don't believe femulating CDers are "out to deceive the world as to my(their) sexual nature"... That's just bizarre and I'm surprised that you're bringing that concept to a place that clearly demonstrates such a diversity of sexual behaviour, but where 'deception' for sexual purposes really makes up such a minority of this expression. That dog don't hunt...

I'd accept you're presenting a non-threatening expression - I'd disagree that people and society feel threatened by full CDers but suggest that they would be much more confused if and when a CDer is revealed as male. Your NDCD appearance will define your gender on first contact, even if there are some double-takes. Even with semi-passable, full CDers there will be more of an "is she, isn't she" judgment going on, and it's the confusion and revelation that might cause confusion and ultimately offence (at being 'fooled'). But I think you're missing here something deeper as to why some CDers femulate and while it may be to express who they feel they are (as you do), we don't necessarily feel that expression would be complete and valid if we weren't completing the picture with full makeup and hair. It's the deeper motivation that matters - imho - and it's that motivation that differentiates our variations and types in the same way that the motivation for a transsexual is totally different to a CDer.

Your examples of change in society are a little fluffy too... Selfridges is just store differentiation (a stunt) - and Caitlyn is probably not far behind (at the moment - but time will tell) - and btw, your idea that folk would respond to you differently if they thought you were just having fun rather than seriously expressing something else... Weren't you 'tweaked' somewhere recently...? That would seem to me to be an indicator that others perspective of you is not necessarily as serious as you believe it to be... And perspective is truth... :thinking:

But by all means be happy with everything... :)

Katey x

[heatherdress]

Most employers in the UK now have anti-discrimination policies that specifically reference both gender and gender identity. The larger the company, the more likely this is, and despite everyones horror stories about them "finding a way" to get rid, you'll find that over here, companies actively and aggressively enforce these policies.

Many of them do not even make a distinction between male and female attire in the dress code, i.e. "Smart trousers or skirt/office dress with shirt/blouse, tie optional. footwear smart, heels 2" maximum".

Abigail - I understand what you are saying about protective laws and progressive company policies. I have seen and experienced similar policies. But the unfortunate reality is that there are still human beings with diverse personal opinions, preferences, comfort levels and leadership styles. I have seen many people in organizations I have been part of not be selected for jobs they were best qualified for because of their personal idiosyncrasies. Appearance, dress, conformity unfortunately are considered, to varying degrees, when selecting and evaluating employees, officially and unofficially, fairly and unfairly. Managers do not want employees who, in their opinion, might make others feel uncomfortable, do note fit their corporate policy image or do things that distract others. People may not get fired, but they may not get the raise they deserve or the promotion they have earned.

[pamela7]

I'm happy to see the thread diverge into aspects like workplace discrimination. I'd agree it's a bigger sell to get "in". When i was in the business world I was in Research & Development so our dress codes had much slack but for important visitors and expo's we "suited up".

I'm my own boss since 2004, and so yes coming out is a big possible income loss/factor (referrals, getting contracts). As people get to know you/me, they relax, their judgements come down and one can shift attire. Andro days 1-2, then gradually by the end of a week I can be in dresses.

As it was my way in the world of an intuitive meant I did not fit most corporates anyway, they can't cope with real leadership, innovation, creativity, imagination, so it meant i needed employers with problems their own staff could not solve. Same game now really. In England, as an eccentric, yes, you get slack, as an inventing genius, yes also slack, for dress, for manners, for unusual hours - they're paying for someone to do something that's outside the box, so they take it that the person also has to dress outside the box!

I suppose though that CD'ers can hardly complain about people judging on surface appearance!?

thanks for all the comments, keep them coming, it's good to discuss these things.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sorry
some of the things you said in the OP are not read between the lines type stuff..nice try tho...

i think you are just full of yourself and projecting your own internal thoughts(some of them pretty offensive)onto a large group
and really have very little if any insight into anything except what is specifically going on with you, it doesnt really apply broadly to much of anything

[Brandy Mathews]

Melanie,
I agree with what you posted. And I really like the saying under your join date.
Hugs,
Bree :)

[Gillian Gigs]

To preform a social experiment like this is interesting. In doing so, one of the first things would be to not think that everyone is thinking what we, as the individual is thinking. To see this experiment done in many locations would help to see what is real, verus what is preceived. Some us of just like the clothes, some it's sexual and some have to present as best they can as female. To me the real question is, what is the general public thinking, and that is going to be hard to figure out, considering how difficult it can be to get the truth out of people.

[ReineD]

The point is: the time for hiding is over, or nearly over depending on location.

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say it's over (at least not in the US or Canada), but I've noticed the trend too.

I think (some) MtFs are beginning to catch up with FtMs. I know several FtMs from a campus group years ago and although they may have started out going the way of Chaz Bono, all except one eventually came to accept their female bodies and did not alter them in any way. Moreover, there is no attempt at disguising the female voice or having people think they are birth males. They mostly did not want to leave the lesbian community (transitioning to a male would have accomplished this) and in some circles the group of friends morphed into a queer community comprised of males and females who feel they do not conform to society's expectations of gender and sexual preference. The birth females dress like men and have masculine haircuts, and the birth males are feminine although they don't wear skirts. The people I am talking about are in their 20s or very early 30s and they are determined to be true to, and honor who they are. This is what I think you are saying.

But, this is an entirely different outlook than that shared among MtF transsexuals or the crossdressers who do want or need to present fully as women.

Congratulations on being accepted for who you are! :)


Going out in public as a man in a dress makes us recognizable.

So does going out presenting as a female. If a CDer dresses to blend-in well enough, there will not be red flags causing strangers to have double takes, but you can be assured that an onlooker who does know the CDer well (a family member, a good friend, a coworker who knows him well) will still recognize him. This may not hold true for everyone, but I think it does for most, unless the makeup skills are astoundingly good.

[Melanie 0339]

Melanie,
I agree with what you posted. And I really like the saying under your join date.
Hugs,
Bree :)
Thank you Bree it's a brave new world and I'm almost ready for it to finally see the real me xxx

[Krisi]

Reine, when I speak of dressing as a female and not being recognized as our male selves, I'm assuming that we are not walking out our front door dressed, we are not going to work or the same bars or clubs we normally frequent as a male and that we are not with our wives or other people who would complete a connection to our male selves.

I put a lot of thought into this because I don't want to be known by neighbors as "the tranny down the street" and I don't want people telling my wife that they saw me prancing around the neighborhood in a dress and heels.

I wear a wig of a different color, length and style from my natural hair. The wig has bangs and I wear women's sunglasses when appropriate. I change away from home and change back before returning home. I keep my public activities away from where anyone who knows me is likely to be and I pretty much keep on the move. Nothing like sitting in a restaurant or bar. And, I dress like a normal woman for the time and place.

I would really like for my wife to agree to go out in public with Krisi but if it happens it will be in another city a couple hours away from home.

Nothing is without risk of course, but some careful thought and planning reduces the risk to an acceptable level.

[Rachael Leigh]

Pamela I think I know what you are talking about I mean I enjoy getting dressed up putting on the makeup and all and it's fine but yes there are times I really want to just wear what I want even if I bought it in the ladies department, makeup and all takes time so while I doubt I would ever go in a dress without all the other stuff I do venture out on occasion in what could be seen as ladies designs so what's the big deal

[UNDERDRESSER]

I do not think that many CDers are trying to trick people, and depending on location and situation, I don't think that many muggles would think that either. (doesn't mean that there might be other reasons for negative reactions) I think you are fortunate in your locale, that you can do what you do and not suffer because of it. Because you can do that, you feel more comfortable and relaxed, and that is possibly the main reason you find people's reactions to be so positive.

I think this because that is how I have found people respond to me. I was nervous, initially, but I felt secure in my partner's support, and I was fairly confident of my employers at least being tolerant. Beyond that, I had little worry. I thought there might be some, negative outcomes, but I felt fairly good about no physical attacks, at least none I could not deal with. Some people seemed to not know how to react, and so default to trying to ignore it. Most women seem to be approving, or at least amused, and overall I seem to be getting generally more positive interactions. Part of this is undoubtedly, as I say, I feel better in myself, and people are reacting to that.

I have had so few bad reactions, (basically one, very minor conversation with a drunk) that I have gone further than I expected to. I am skirted almost full time, and I just go about my activities as if there was nothing different. The last 2 days are the first time I have gone out in pants in the last 2 or 3 months. (it was too cold and wet to ride the bike in a skirt, sucks) Still pulled on a skirt as soon as I got to work.

[Katya@]

Hi Pamela. Considering how wide the spectrum for crossdressing is, it is not surprising to hear so many different reactions to your post. We have here those who almost transitioned all the way to those who happy just to put a skirt on. Because at this point of my CD'ing I am much closer to the later, I can relate to your post. But I also understand why you just can't call those for whom it is important to be "full on" as being deceptive. Early on, I was drawn more to get this feminine look. I tried to use make up as good as I could, etc. Now, I am really happy with the skirt and some tank top. It is also easy to be around wife and kids as they call here NDCD. My kids and my wife still see me, a husband and a dad in a skirt. Not some strange women that behaves weirdly. I started venture out late evenings like that in my neighborhood and will likely to come out to the rest of my family here. I am a man in a skirt.

[Robinadress]

It is nice to read the debate because of your post. As many have said before we are not the same at all in the group that call our self crossdressers. We don’t always know so much about each other. Where I live there is one CD that is well known in media. She and I have very little in common, but I see that many people are comparing us when I talk to them.

I don’t think Pamela means we are deceiving anyone when out dressed fully. I think she means that is what some other people out there may be thinking of us unfortunately.

I also did go out in women clothing with makeup and a wig before, but that was only to be able to wear skirts, dresses and heels among other people. In those days I thought it would be ridiculous for me to go out as a man in a dress. I thought everyone would laugh out loud when they would see me, and that I would experience threat of violence if the right people would see me out. This is also the same argument I see a lot of you are using in this thread. When I started going out just crossdressing from the neck down, I experienced nothing of the things I feared. The first time I went out to a night club just in a dress without makeup or a wig I was so nervous, but I received so many compliments. People not knowing me told me they were so glad to see me like this because it showed that I was able to be myself out and that I didn’t try to fool anyone. I know that most of us don’t try to fool anyone, but that is what so many people out there believe. Of course many people watched me enter the club, but after about 30 minutes they were used to see me and I was just one of the others. I have experienced many times that people have said to me that they are a CD them self or someone close to them and they thank me for showing it out. I have been out many times after this, and never experienced anybody threating me. I am shore that most of the people seeing me aren’t thinking of me in a negative way.

I feared going out when I started going out with makeup and a wig, but none of my fears came true. I had the same fears when I threw away the wig and makeup, but nothing happened that time either. I believe that is why some of you think we are being laughed at and risking violence when going out because you haven’t tried it. Just go back in time and think about the first time you went out in public. What fears did you have, and what happened? I’m shore your fears didn’t happen.

I am respecting all kinds of crossdressing, and think that it is great to read and learn about all the different ways we are expressing our self.

[pamela7]

Yes, Rob understands, it not that we intend consciously to deceive, but that is the perception and really the effect if one passes.

I'm enjoying being out in a dress, unmade-up, but I also feel the pull to put on the wig and make-up too. It's all and everything for me, it seems!

[ReineD]

I also did go out in women clothing with makeup and a wig before, but that was only to be able to wear skirts, dresses and heels among other people. In those days I thought it would be ridiculous for me to go out as a man in a dress.

I've read many members say this over the years, and this is what I referred to in my earlier post. Granted there are people who do want to be perceived as the opposite sex than birth, but there are also many people who are perfectly satisfied with who they are (men who do not feel masculine and women who do not feel feminine) and who welcome the opportunity to be themselves and present in a non-gender-binary manner.

[Marcelle]

Yes, Rob understands, it not that we intend consciously to deceive, but that is the perception and really the effect if one passes.

Sorry Pamela . . . still not buying this line of thinking. Very few CDers truly pass (minutia percentage) unless you have been handed some very feminine genetics (structure, facial, size) or are extremely young with limited exposure to testosterone. As such, most people will see a CDer and think exactly that . . . cross dresser. There is no perception on the part of people whom I have met . . . "Oh there goes one of those people trying to fool everyone again" like I was some stealthy "Janet Bourne" :). It is more likely they will think I am trans and while they might not get it, I doubt there is a perception I am trying to deceive anyone.

Cheers

Isha

[pamela7]

I'm happy to be wrong Isha, but I still feel one should consider the subliminal messages one gives out, and it's helped me to better pace the world to see it this way.

Since I've been the "man in a dress", with men I'm being accepted as another man, and with the women (so far) I'm being treated as one of the club, engaging in girl-chat, the "sharing", finding myself spontaneously gesturing and moving as a woman, figures of speech, so it's working! Just today walking down the High St in my pink cami-tunic dress I'm being engaged by women who'd never have spoken to me before, and I met an old male friend who asked me about it, and shared he also likes wearing a skirt - result!

PS Isha, I'm not so sure that the typical joe/janet does see a cross-dresser and say "there's a cross-dresser". They likely only know of drag queens, they likely assume you're gay (I used to because I knew no different), and they're likely to act on that basis.

[Gillian Gigs]

Speaking as a person from western Canada, I find that people in my region have to get rather outlandish or different, before anyone notices anything. My wife and I notice alot of things and we quietly point it out to each other, and that doesn't happen very often. We point out little to the big oddities, and quietly ask the other what do we think. A guy in a skirt and pantyhose would get noticed, but most people would just move on quietly commenting to whoever they were with. Drunks in a bar would be another story, after 5 or 6 stupid juices or some liquid courage anything can happen. I say go for it, you aren't hurting anyone.

[Candice June Lee]

We had simular acceptance on our canoe trip a couple weeks ago. We were a group and was just loved by women and men alike. It was really wierd when a lady came up and said yall are so wonderful and hugged us, including our SO's. It good to hear you had a warm welcoming time.

[ReineD]

As such, most people will see a CDer and think exactly that . . . cross dresser. ... It is more likely they will think I am trans


Isha, I'm not so sure that the typical joe/janet does see a cross-dresser and say "there's a cross-dresser". They likely only know of drag queens, they likely assume you're gay (I used to because I knew no different), and they're likely to act on that basis.

You're both correct. There's a wide variety of people out there, of different ages with different backgrounds, with different levels of awareness, in different parts of the world and in different parts of their country, in urban and rural areas, with conservative and liberal views, who all believe different things. Some people will read you as a CDer, other as trans, some as DQs (although I think a CDer would have to dress over the top to be read as a DQ), some as a gay man, some as just plain weird, and ... some people will even get it! They will admire you for choosing a presentation that reflects who you are. :)

Plus there's a whole genderqueer subculture sprouting up (I see it a lot on campus and on Facebook among younger people, mostly but not necessarily in the gay community) who do not identify as their birth-sex like other members of their birth-sex, nor do they identify as the opposite sex particularly, and they don't give a damn! To them, presenting the way they do without masking their birth-sex gender cues (feminine for men and masculine for women or androgynously) is the only honest thing to do since they are not cross-sex identified. They know they are rejecting social expectations for gender presentation and they are out and proud, telling everyone that gender is indeed not binary.

Is this what you are doing, Pamela7. If you are not cross-sex identified, then I can see that for you, presenting as a feminine male is being honest. But, there are people who do need to present as the sex opposite than birth, and they are being honest in terms of presenting how they feel too.

[pamela7]

Is this what you are doing, Pamela7. If you are not cross-sex identified, then I can see that for you, presenting as a feminine male is being honest. But, there are people who do need to present as the sex opposite than birth, and they are being honest in terms of presenting how they feel too.

Everyone is doing what they need to do - eve if they're suppressing it (which is also another, more powerful, need).

Reine, I can't say cos I don't know. It feels right, so I do it. Wearing male clothes feels wrong these days. I can rationalise this that it's my anima-return or my truer more feminine male self coming through. I find a need to feel pretty, to behave femininely, something I find much much easier around females than around males, so even on this forum I start reverting to more male-like communication. I've not worn a bra for a few days and the urge is growing. Even tho i'm only wearing male footwear I feel slightly depressed that i'm not all femme. My nails have been polish-clear for 2 days and already I'm going up the walls with desire to re-polish them.

Thing is tho, for me, I can see this is not gender-related, all men have the right to wear make up, to look pretty, as much as women do. In ancient egypt we see this urge satisfied, and I identify strongly with that culture and against the seriousness of old greybeard (discordianism rules!). So for me, yes, it's authentic to CD neck-to-ankle, and also at times to CD hat to sandal.

An actor once showed me his hat collection. He does a one-man show, and literally the hat change shifts the identity. So the wig/hat thing is essential in others recognising our id shift and also in our mirror and our own self identification. Maybe genderqueer identifies well. Our "daughter" being CD F2M and rejecting her/his birth sex, and her/his partner doing the same can't be a coincidence. Presently they're more identified as GQ than F2M TS. I don't think she-he knows either, their hair is now very long and their behaviours would be called feminine, their clothing masculine. Go figure, cos I can't!

thanks

[ReineD]

Maybe genderqueer identifies well. Our "daughter" being CD F2M and rejecting her/his birth sex, and her/his partner doing the same can't be a coincidence. Presently they're more identified as GQ than F2M TS. I don't think she-he knows either, their hair is now very long and their behaviours would be called feminine, their clothing masculine.

Go figure, cos I can't!


For the GQs, it's a rejection of gender-binary social norms (either presenting as a traditional male or traditional female), to reflect their truths within, which is other than either traditional male or female. Whereas TSs and the CDers who present as women rather embrace the gender-binary social norms; TSs because this is who they are, (whether transmen or transwomen) and CDers because they feel a powerful pull to present as beautiful women.

[mechamoose]

Why? If I were fully dressing (trying to pass), then I'm out to deceive the world as to my sexual nature (cf scenes in "how to lose friends and alienate people"), I'm challenging men's suppressed homosexuality, I'm challenging women's place. By being a "man dressed as he damn well pleases" I'm being in my own power but no threat to anyone, in fact I'm empowering others to be themselves. It's as simple as a women wearing men's clothes. She's not wearing a false moustache and false-beard to deceive. So it does not threaten society in the same way full-on CD-ing does. In the privacy of home, or going to CD groups, yes, go the whole way, but I reckon we can out ourselves with this halfway house safely and securely because we are being ourselves.

I'm not sure why XX girls who are more comfortable as boys are so much easier to deal with than XY people who present as frilly.

I just want to be me, as I'm sure most of you are. I don't need any of that to accept myself, but in order to be accepted as 'normal' in the world at large? I get stares and odd looks every day. My family accepts me, my friends accept me. WTF do I care what a 'civilian' thinks?

Because it matters. Because at the heart of it I want to be just who I am without excuses or explanations. I'm just me. Isn't that enough?

I hate that it *isn't* enough for a lot of our worlds. I'm not a terrorist threat. I'm just *different* than they are.

We have the right to be that.

- MM

[Suzie Petersen]

@MM
The unfortunate thing is that to a lot of people, someone else just being different, is a threat to them. People fear what they dont understand and some act agressively against it.

- Suzie

[Krisi]

And some people go out of their way to be different, just to be different. The Beatles with their unique haircuts in the early 1960s would be an example.

The problem with being different just to be different arises when your style of different becomes the norm (as happened to the Beatles). Then you have to find a different way of being different.

[ReineD]

They're not different "just to be different".

It's young peoples' job to stretch the social norms. They do this to reflect the fact that their values are different than those of prior generations. If the Beatles and others throughout time (including the Beatle's parents and their parents before them, etc) hadn't stretched these norms and hadn't made changes, we'd all look, dress, and behave the same as people thousands of years ago. Evolution is normal. It's how we survive changing conditions.

That said, and addressing MM's comment, I'm also waiting for our society to accept non-binary gender presentation. Like you said, people are pretty good with females who are not stereotypically feminine, and I'm hoping it will only be a question of time until men who are not stereotypically masculine are accepted too. :)

[Suzie Petersen]

ReineD: They're not different "just to be different".

Oh some are! Our 22 year old son absolutely goes out of his way to be different. He takes pride in not looking like everybody else.

- Suzie

[ReineD]

Suzie, you're describing something that is common to young people, although to varying degrees depending on the person. They question and/or reject old ways of thinking and doing things, and they establish their uniqueness or their originality among their peers, which is part of their self-discovery process. Gosh, even members in this forum strive for uniqueness, if you look at the many unique forum names! If you want to look at it as a type of contrarianism for it's own sake, then I guess that's up to you. But, they do have reasons for their behaviors and young people have been doing this since the beginning of time.

Have a look at these ancient quotes from Socrates, Plato, Hesiod and a few others (it's in a Google Q&A all in one place), complaining about the youths of their day, including their manner of dress:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=408989

... especially this gem from Plato: "As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."

I guess some things never change. lol

[mechamoose]

Rebellion is rebellion.I have kids ranging from 30's to teens. They only rebel against arbitrary crap. If you are true to them, they will be true to you.

- MM

[jenniferinsf]

i have been out and about in public for about a year with interactions with all manner of people. recently i made a list of of varying degrees of dress....ie femme light (tight jeans with a woman's top) femme casual (femme light with the addition of perhaps woman's sandals, open toed wedges and even lipstick) to full femme (perhaps blouse, skirt, make up (rarely use foundation) and jewelry.
i did this to try establish an acceptable/passable look for the location i was going to and the activity i was to undertake as part of the working out with my wife where it would be appropriate (she is scared of me meeting those friends of ours that too conservative and do not know).
what i realized that being a woman is hard/lot of work relative to looks and that a mix of male/female clothing just looks odd. ie femme light with a five o'clock shadow or dorky shoes just does not cut it for me or likely others. it is either a male or female look that is needed.
i dress en femme about 75% of the time and go everywhere that way except up and down in the elevator in my condo building