sending in a spy

[crossdrezzer1]

my wife and I visited a store and we walked in separate,, I go to this store a lot so I always wondered what was said after I leave. They are very polite to me but once im gone do they laugh? well anyways the wife stuck around after I left and she said to me no chuckles nor comments,, we plan on doing the same thing at a nail salon later... Have anyone here ever thought about doing this before?

[pamela7]

lots of times i am with a companion, and they give me feedback, whether its passers-by or in shops or bars. but really now I don't care, I mean I laugh at that fashion where men have their trousers hanging below their underpants, so if someone else wants to laugh at me, then good for them - its better than aggression.

[Jaylyn]

Good answer Pamela. I do t like the trousers below the underwater either and I guess I would have to accept what they say about me a I talk about them also. Only thing is I've never seen this type of character in a dress shop or a nail salon....

[Krisi]

In my nail salon neither me nor my wife would have any what they are saying about me because they are not speaking our language and we don't understand theirs.

I suspect comments are made but not where other customers can hear them. We have all done it on different subjects.

[Teresa]

I usually have a laugh and a joke with them when I'm in the store so they probably say nice guy but a bit weird when I've left .

Funny thing was the other day I had some spare time before seeing my counsellor so I wondered into a Matalan store. I couldn't believe there were as many guys looking at shoes in the ladies racks, when I reached the changing rooms there was a young guy a little nervous and his mother laughing while she passed him a skirt .
I mentioned this to my counsellor after and joked about her never being out of a job!

[Sarasometimes]

I have never thought nor had a need for the spy thing but I did have an image consultant watch me from afar to see how I was doing compartment wise and she shared that contrary to my feeling that everyone new I was a guy, she didn't see any real reaction from other shoppers.
I think workers who deal with the public need to be able to vent at times and as long as they don't do it with other customers I don't think it is wrong. Nice though to hear no one said anything bad. Sort of reminds me of the Seinfeld episode with Elaine and the nail ladies.

[Allisa]

I've often wondered about that but I'm sure at first there were remarks and chuckles but if it's a store I frequent I'm sure that now I'm just another customer, you know that guy that dresses like a woman.

[Krisi]

Yes, I was going to mention that Seinfeld episode. Pretty funny.

[Sheila11]

What does it matter? By searching out that sort of feedback you are allowing others to control your future actions and attitudes.

[Krisi]

What does it matter? If you are trying to pass as a woman or even "blend" as some call it, hearing comments made by people who don't know they are being heard is a great way to improve your presentation. Much like photos, but by live strangers. For example: "That must be a dude. Look at how he is wobbling in those heels." or "I thought that was a woman until I noticed there were no hips."

Feedback from others is how we improve ourselves whether it be crossdressing, singing, golf, whatever. Notice how some companies are asking for customer feedback lately?

[Jilmac]

It doesn't really matter what is said or done by others after I leave a business establishment. What does matter is how I'm treated while I'm there. If there is any rudeness, whispers, snickers, or unbusinesslike conduct, the owner, manager, or corporate office will be informed by me, that I will never set foot there again and I will spread the word that it is unfriendly to us.

[Princess Chantal]

If it helps you defeat your internalized transphobia thoughts ,great! If it elevates them, then that sucks the biggie! If it helps you better attain your goal of deception, congrats!
Not something I worry about, I am a crossdresser watch me live my life happily to the fullest!

[char GG]

What difference would it make to you if they did laugh and comment after you left?

[UNDERDRESSER]

I would like to do this, I think, but the only person I can think of to do that would be my SO, and she would probably think I was being childish and refuse. I have had some feedback from a couple of co-workers, who said that the reaction from some of the younger, and newer, employees was somewhat shocked. That I had the nerve to do it! None of them seemed to actually object at all. I do feel that there have been some customers, and SAs in other stores that had a bit of a giggle after I left, but as someone else said, as long as they are polite to my face they can snigger all they want after I leave.

[Marcelle]

Hello,

Early in my dressing I ran several social experiments to get a better understanding of how I am perceived in the Vanilla world. There was no real reason for this except I wanted to prepare myself for being more public. One think I struggled with is your exact question . . . how are we perceived. Sure we hear all the "I blended / nobody noticed / I must have passed" stories but is that truly the case. I ran a similar experiment with the help of a GG friend through several stores, the results though anecdotal were a bit eye opening. If you are interested you can have a read http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?212499-The-Rose-Coloured-Glasses-Experiment/page2

Cheers

Isha

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Amy, Most people are so wrapped up in their own little world and could care less about you.:hugs:

[kimdl93]

No, it hasn't ever crossed my mind. It falls into the gray area between 'I don't care
' and 'none of my business.'

[heatherdress]

Why waste your time? Don't live your life wondering what other people might think about you. Live your life for yourself.

[ReineD]

I go to this store a lot so I always wondered what was said after I leave. They are very polite to me but once im gone do they laugh? well anyways the wife stuck around after I left and she said to me no chuckles nor comments,,

I remember reading Isha's experiment (post #15), which also mirrored some of the SA's reactions to my own SO when she and I have been shopping and also walked into the store separately. I was wondering why your experience was different. It could be because you're been there several times and the SAs at that store are accustomed to you?


Why waste your time? Don't live your life wondering what other people might think about you.

I think the exercise is useful. If a CDer believes that she passes (that others believe she is a GG), it is an advantage to know the truth. I agree though, it doesn't really matter whether onlookers approve or not.

[Stephanie47]

If you're well known to the SA's at a store you're old news especially if it a store selling women's clothing or shoes. Maybe you should ask them for an assessment of your presentation and if they had any suggestions. Remember, CD-ers have money too! I do think what you and your wife are doing may be reassuring, but, it could also bust your bubble. What would you do if your wife reported back that then sales staff were rolling on the floor in laughter and bursting at the seams? It could lead to some regression.

I sure there are stores that truly would rather you not enter. I went into a Catherine's in Tukwila, WA a number of years ago attired as a man wanting to buy a full slip. I love Velrose slips which Catherine's carried. When I entered unaccompanied by a wife or female friend, you'd think space aliens had landed. I did buy two Velrose slips. Even at the check out counter I sensed an assumption I must be "one of them" because, well why would a man of my size be buying slips that would fit my size? Over the years I've bought or shopped for slips at other Catherine's in Federal Way, Lakewood and Tacoma and was treated as a valued customer.

I know I digressed a little on your thread, but, experiences tend to be different.

[heatherdress]

If a CDer believes that she passes (that others believe she is a GG), it is an advantage to know the truth.

Reine - "Passing" if defined as "others believing she is a GG" would probably be an incredibly low percentage for most men who crossdress. If a spouse stays behind to see if others laugh when we are gone, does that mean they believe we are GGs? Does it mean anything?

Why be disappointed, or hurt, or lose confidence by asking our spouses and girl friends to spy on others? It might not only be negative for us, but also for our wives.

The "truth" about passing is so arbitrary and so dependent upon so many factors, there is no consistent "truth". Where you are, how busy observers are, lighting, how close you get, how long you are in contact, if you talk - all are factors related to "passing". Most of us want to feel comfortable, don't want to be stared at, and maybe like to think we "pass" - but will we never know what other people really think.

It is not a waste of time if the spying is done for fun and if reaction or lack or reaction, is kept in perspective. What really matters are our own feelings.

[ReineD]

Reine - "Passing" if defined as "others believing she is a GG" would probably be an incredibly low percentage for most men who crossdress.

I put it this way because some CDers believe that others do not detect they are male-bodied. This was my SO's definition of "passing" in the beginning and this may be truer of people who are beginning to go out in public dressed. I sense that in the beginning, many CDers acquire the courage to go out only if they DO believe they can pass. But then after having gone out a lot and having realized that people will not lynch them (figuratively speaking), the fear of being read as a male dissipates.

I do think it is advantageous for CDers to be as realistic as they can about their presentation as early as they can, if for no other reason than safety reasons. Having said this, being read as male-bodied is not necessarily negative. The vast majority of people that my SO and I encounter are polite. What they do with that information when we are not present is their business, not ours.

In terms of "passing", it is true that if a CDer dresses to blend, passers-by who are not paying attention will not detect a male-bodied individual presenting as a woman. But, the minute there is any interaction with people, or should an onlooker's gaze rest on a CDer for a few seconds, then they know (generally speaking).

Edit - I agree that what really matters are your own feelings. This is why it is important to pay attention to the fact that the vast majority of SAs, restaurant personnel, etc, are polite and professional. At the same time I think it can be potentially dangerous (depending on the venue) for a CDer to believe that people don't know that s/he is male-bodied.

[Sharon B.]

I wouldn't worry about what people say they are going to do it anyway whether there is someone around or not. When I lived in a subdivision I was the only single man with no kids living there. All around me there were families with kids, the only time I would venture out on my back porch was the wee hours of the morning dressed as a woman. Even now that I live in the country some of my neighbors might see me dressed as a woman but no one has said anything about it, at least not to me. They might talk among themselves so what, I am not breaking any law except some of them might think I am breaking God's law.

[Eryn]

I'm an analytical type and have pondered collecting this sort of data. I never did and in retrospect I don't think that I would be inclined to do so.

The three possible outcomes to the spying are:

1. No comment at all.
2. Negative comments about that transperson who just left.
3. Positive comments about that transperson who just left.

Number 1 is either a rousing success at passing or simply a salesperson smart enough to keep her negative opinions to herself. Would you be inspired to buy something from a salesgirl gossiping about a customer who just left?

Number 2 is of no use to me. I don't need my self-image damaged by petty people.
Number 3 is nice, but at the same time it still means that I'm being perceived as something other than a woman.

I do the best I can to appear female. With my height this may or may not be totally effective. I treat everyone I meet with courtesy, friendliness, and respect and this is always returned to me. What those people say when I am out of earshot is their own business, not mine.

[Rogina B]

I do the best I can to appear female. With my height this may or may not be totally effective. I treat everyone I meet with courtesy, friendliness, and respect and this is always returned to me. What those people say when I am out of earshot is their own business, not mine.
And that applies across the entire "T spectrum"...No one get's a "pass" from behaving properly..

[jenniferinsf]

i agree with blue orchid, they are either looking at their mobile phone or in the mirror....

[Loni]

yes people notice, yes people talk, yes people laugh.

at you and me ? i can not say.

but if nothing else at least I leave them with a smile on there faces.

[Krisi]

I must have missed Isha's earlier thread, the one she mentioned in post #15. I just read it.

She had a negative experience in Victoria's Secret. I'm not making excuses for the treatment she received, but that is a store that caters mostly to the young "hot chick" crowd. I've been there with my wife. There's nothing there that would be suitable for me. The employees are mostly young women who view themselves as "hot chicks" also. Employees in this type of store (except perhaps the manager) are not career employees, they are young people waiting to get married or find a better job somewhere. Pretty much the same crowd that works the fast food establishments but better dressed. Isha ran into a bad egg.

I expect Isha (and any of us) would find better treatment at a store that caters to older and more mainstream women. Dillards, J C Pennys, Kohls, etc.

[jjjjohanne]

I am interested in conducting this experiment, and I feel like I am as psycho as Castanza when I consider it.

Here is my idea for further research:
Send in a CD to a restaurant, etc. where you and your co-workers or family will be. Then you can see how they react to a CD. Then you know who you can not tell your secret to.

Science!!

[AngelaYVR]

You don't have any control over the opinions of others and their opinions shouldn't have any control over you.

[Rhonda Jean]

Wow. I missed Isha's original post on this subject. That's pretty disturbing.

When I was in my mid 20's I did a similar experiment except I didn't have an accomplice. I had been going out since I was a teenager and thought I passed without question. Without going into all the boring details, I got into a situation where for the first time I knew I'd been read. It shook me up. I stared my own experiment by, for instance, going into a store en femme and returning at another time and either making up some story about why I'd been in there earlier dressed as a woman (as if it'd been a joke) and seeing if they'd read me, or just outright asking if they read me. Then I'd ask how they read me, what gave me away. Of the ones who read me, the answers were enlightening. Some said they didn't really know. That they could just tell. One said my hands. Several said my voice. One said it was because I was wearing a leopard print bra with a black blouse. (?). A couple of them said it was because I was overdressed.

My (over) reaction was to try to be more feminine, or at least what that meant to me at the time. Shorter/tighter dresses, bigger boobs, higher heels. I specifically remember an electric blue spandex mini dress. Of course, all that was a big mistake, and of course I passed less, not more.

I'd be lying if I said it wasn't important to me to pass, but the older I get the more difficult that becomes. Sometimes it's just not worth the effort. More and more I just go 50/50 and don't even try.

[Janet Bern]

I used to go shopping with a female friend when I was dressed. She would follow
me and see if anyone noticed me or did any double takes.. Even when we were
both at a counter purchasing a pocketbook no one ever looked twice. I am 6'2 and
was wearing flats.. no problem...

[mechamoose]

None of those folks understand,

I get angry at not being allowed to just be myself.

I don't want to apologize, I don't want to be sorry. I don't care where you are on the CD-TS spectrum, we have the right to be this way.

It makes me so angry that any of us have to deal with that.

Yah, I'm wearing a skirt. What the hell does that have to do with anything?

- MM