infiltrating the Sorority

[Eringirl]

So, listening to a few discussions lately between GG regarding trans women. I am hearing comments like "you have no idea what is it like to be a woman", "you have no idea what you are in for", "you are a 'wanna be', an impersonator, an impostor". The tone of the conversation is that of being an infiltrator into their private sorority, without have gone through the right of passage, without their experiences, cheating at being a woman, as it were. It is almost like they appear threatened, or dare I say, devalued, as if transwomen dilute the value of all women.

Now, please keep in mind, I am in no way implying this is the stance taken by all CIS women. Not at all. It was only a very small number of individual women. But, I am trying to wrap my head around this. One part of me does see their point, and the other side of me says that they have no idea what I am going through, and how do they know I am not a real woman?? Okay, physically, I am not, in that I wasn't born as a woman physically, but I was mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. And in the process of completing the transition physically. How can they say I am not a woman, when every fibre of my being is? So, not looking for any confrontational dialogue, just trying to understand this.

Has anyone else experienced this line of discussion??? Or is it just me being "clueless".....:idontknow:

Erin

[arbon]

Oh yes, plenty.

Just my opinion and feeling from my own experience, but I don't think most people can ever really see and understand that the ts women are actually real women.


cheating at being a woman! Yep a lot of women think that! Complete lack of understanding of the hell most of go through. I've paid, and paid, and paid, and paid. There was a very high price to be where I am today.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Cisgender people literally have no way to internalize what we go thru.

So many of them marginalize us in many ways.

[Jennifer-GWN]

As I assume daily life as a woman there are aspects that say I have many of the same delemmas...

The other night getting ready for a social gathering with work team... Yep tried on many outfits, exchanged, retried, debated ... But went through the what to wear aspect... Whereas as male I'd put something on and leave ... Representing a shirt and pants.. Done.

Planning my day and just organization in general more front and center... On this it's been instinctual as from a mind set I know much of my male struggles was driven by mind not insync with body. But now it is more Just something I have be conscious of. I need to know what I'm doing and prepare (time management) to deal... Again as male I'd just up and leave...not much prep... Now have to think ahead plan accordingly...back to what to wear... But also makeup, hair, etc. as a cis woman you can be a bit more loose with respect to makeup and presentation due to natural assets. As trans blending is one thing but counteracting facial and other male queues is another and I'm sorry to say we as trans just have to work a little harder to counter the male curses many of us have.

So yes I do have an appreciation of what it is to go about my day as a woman and correspondingly have a lot to learn as well. But there are also aspects of my life that cis equally don't have experience with simply because they are cis.

My random thinking and blathering in between calls ��.

Cheers... Jennifer

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sorry to say but what you are talking about is not what it means to be a woman.

I don't pretend to say that I know what it means but u know it doesn't mean taking longer to get ready for a party

[stefan37]

Being Trans is just so off people's radar. It's starting to come out of the shadows. But the majority of people continue to believe gender is what your birth sex is.
You have just started to transition. There are myriad male clues you exude. There is a male aura you project. You don't see it, but it's there. That makes it difficult to have your target gender reflected back.
Women have had a lifetime to live and grow as women. Late life transitioners regardless of internal identity have projected a male image for a long time. It will take a long time to grow into being a woman that is accepted as such my the public. Until you reach a point where you project a female aura, people will not truly accept you as female.
You can't force others to accept you as female.

[Eringirl]

Stef, absolutely agree....can't force others to accept you as female. I guess that I should clarify a bit....their comments were not aimed at me, but all transwomen. Yes, I am FULLY aware of my male cues, no doubt about that. But they included Candis Cayne, Jenny Boylan etc - as the conversation was started around Caitlyn Jenner.....and quite literally "any transgender woman".

[Badtranny]

So yes I do have an appreciation of what it is to go about my day as a woman and correspondingly have a lot to learn as well.

I appreciate the point you're trying to make, but do yourself a favor and don't use this argument with a Cis girl.

You and I have a similar medical history (being raised as dudes and whatnot) and even I was squinting at your 'hardships' as a woman. What you are describing is actually the hardship of being a newly transitioned woman.

When I first transitioned I was very concerned about 'passing' so it did take me a lot longer to get ready for work in the morning. Makeup had to be just right and daytime makeup is a world away from nighttime makeup . (can I get a hell yeah?)
Yes women generally take a little longer than men but it's not because they used to be men.

These days, it barely takes me any longer to get ready for work, and no time at all to leave the house on the weekend. No, dressing and day planning are not exactly monumental concerns for women. Being talked over, being looked over, and being walked over are what girls grow up dealing with. I have issues with men not taking me seriously because they either think I'm a 'real' woman, or they know I'm not a 'real' woman. I have issues with dating for the first time in my life. The sisterhood is bonded by the shitty experiences because those seem to be the only thing we all have in common.

Give the Cis girls the benefit of the doubt. They have no idea what it's like to grow up like this, and how could they? They are suspicious because they honestly think that you just like dressing up. We all like dressing up on occasion, but Cis women don't know any better so they think you just want to dabble in the fun stuff and avoid the bad stuff. Well, I'd love to do that too actually, but unfortunately there is no way to avoid the bad stuff after you change your name and get huge boobs installed. There is no pretending to be a dude to avoid the uncomfortable situations. After a couple of years, the Cis women in your life will see that. They will come to accept you when you've got some stripes. They will know you by your fruit.

[STACY B]

Maybe it's a Middle thing? While your in the middle of transition and they know there is something wrong that's why they judge? But Folks gonna judge you for Something,, You gotta Blow that crap off and try and surround yourself with the people you want to deal with,, I do ,, Hell if I got out in Town or around where the Norms were and I wasn't just right they gonna judge. Hell I went into a Little Dinner the other morning Wife and me,, I mean Redneck Old folks kinda place,, That all the Old Timers eat and drink Coffee at in the Woods kinda sorta off the path you know,, Anyway I walk in nothing Crazy on just normal crap,, But all you Lady's out there that have The Hair know what I mean,, Long Ass hair,, Slick legs,, Shorts on,, T shirt,, Got my Girl glasses on of course can't see without them,, No makeup just me the way I look all the time,, But to them Folk not the Norm by a long shot,, You Better know they were staring me down.

But I think you will always get judged by someone some where and we of all people should just blow it off and Laugh at it,, Me I LOVE the Shock of peoples faces and there reactions and it really sucks for them after they take a Good Look and realize that I am the Dirt Guy that was at there Dam house the other day,,,lol,,,

[arbon]

Maybe it's a Middle thing?

It is a if they know your trans thing. It sets you apart in many subtle ways as something other than a real woman in many peoples minds. Not all, but many.

[stefan37]

That was one of the points I was making. They know something is off and they treat you that way. I get lots of flack when I say I need distance from Trans issues. Once people discover you are Trans. They treat you different. Not male, but neither female.

If you are transitioning in place being known as Trans is a fact of life. Most will be respectful and eventually use the right pronouns. But they will continue to treat you as Trans. It's even more pronounced owning and working in a male dominated industry as I am.

[STACY B]

That was one of the points I was making. They know something is off and they treat you that way. I get lots of flack when I say I need distance from Trans issues. Once people discover you are Trans. They treat you different. Not male, but neither female.

If you are transitioning in place being known as Trans is a fact of life. Most will be respectful and eventually use the right pronouns. But they will continue to treat you as Trans. It's even more pronounced owning and working in a male dominated industry as I am.

Hey,, It does not Matter how they Remember you as long as They DO remember you when they need you. I'll take that more than just dismissing the Fact that we still do our jobs the same as before and we are people just the same that need to work and make money. They can call me what ever they want behind my back as long as they still call for work,,lol,, Maybe it's not so Bad after all they will remember to call the Trans chic,, Or Tranny dude or He She or what ever they say,, I like it,, Just keep it coming ,, Trans chix gotta work too,,lol,,,

Like I always said,, What People Say Behind Your Back Ain't None of Your Bizzness !!!

[Sandra]

I think a lot of women only look at the physical side of a TS and think that it is only the genitals that make a difference, they don't think of the emotional and mental side of things. Even though I have gone through all of this with Nigella and have seen what she has gone through, I can only imagine how she has felt.

[STACY B]

A lot of women think we All are Glorified Cross dresser's and just like the Little outfits and do all the girly things and don't want to put in the work and go through the whole women experience like they did from birth. But hell that's not the Truth and we know it's not.

But what lots and lots of people take for granted is 99.99% of the people in this world are NOT going to do the Homework it takes to figure this Trans stuff out if it does Not directly affect them. Most people don't go round looking up different Disorders just for Fun. So why would someone just take a Iffy Topic like Transgender and look it up when it has been accossiated with SEX for the past 100 years?

So the first thing most people think is were perverts and child molester or something is really wrong with us. That's why they jump to conclusions about our motives and why we are presenting female. And they think we are out in public trying to get a peep show for free in the Bathroom. Just a general lack of Education on there part and don't be to harsh on other people because we don't study all kinds of stuff that don't pertain to us ether.

Hell most of us here don't even understand it so How could they if they never went to School or Collage . I for one tell people that inquire about me it's very complicated ,, If you have a couple years maybe I could get you started ?

[Lorileah]

I had this discussion with a ciswoman relative not long ago. Seems she thought 1) I was getting off easy and 2) that Transwomen don't have the hurdles or health issues or the heartaches. I have had men treat me badly in relationships so tick that off the "list" of why we can't be women. I now am or will be at risk for breast cancers and still have the ability to get prostate cancer. The Prom? Yeah, wasn't easy for me either. Wedding? Been there, would do it again if the right person came along. Having children (read bearing them) OK, that is never happening, but if I did adopt or had children before transition, I would go to PTA or soccer or dance recitals and feel the same thrill Ciswomen do. OK, the physical things that go with having ovaries, I never will have. But I cannot think of ONE other thing that I cannot or have not experiences that women experience. Disrespected in certain places...done that. Being patronized...yep. Also good things like getting smiles from people who truly are nice. Good manner things, the chair being held, the man who stands up on bus (although it makes me uncomfortable).

Wannabes...technically, yes. Not having the same hurdles...no, we have a few different ones. Heartache, love, anger, loss....same boat. When someone can give me a reason tat I cannot be the woman I am other than childbirth or physical things associated with one body part, a part that GG's may not have or cannot use, then I will bow and say, I agree, I will never know what it feels like. Truth is, can a woman tell me what it feels like?

[arbon]

I'm a woman who was raised and had to live as a man. I suffered. Fear and shame and confusion filled my life. Depression. It was not getting off easy. It sucked. Then I had to go through transition. That was a hard experience. Surgeries! What I have been going through the last few months post op ! Most painful thing I have ever gone through. And falling back into depression because i don't know why.

Hey I have been struggling with yeast infections I guess I have that in common.

None of it means anything. Does not define me as a woman or not.

Does what they go through define them as women?

I'll never experience being born and raised female.

I'm grateful my cis female friends did not have to experience being born with a male body.

[Rianna Humble]

I think many if not all of us will experience this at one time or another, but then there are also people who fully accept our gender. Stef makes a good point, but some of us will never have the luxury of not being thought of as Trans (just see how many references there are to my story on google to understand why I say this).

Fortunately, I also have opposite experiences with cis women, like the one who spontaneously told me in a discussion about why some men do certain things "you've never been a man, you always were a woman". Or a friend and her daughter who laugh and joke with me, call me a "silly cow" and other things that they just never do with a man.

[ReineD]

Now, please keep in mind, I am in no way implying this is the stance taken by all CIS women. Not at all. It was only a very small number of individual women.

I'm glad you said hat, Erin. Because I and many others certainly don't feel as if TSs are trying to infiltrate our "women's realm" or that you are impostors. It is my experience that women are welcoming (except perhaps when it is their husbands, but different rules apply when it hits close to home, and for different reasons). And, if you read stories in the CD section from CDers who go out a lot, more and more are finding acceptance from women too.

Frankly, the women you describe sound like TERFs (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trans-exclusionary_radical_feminism) (trans exclusionary radical feminists), who are a small minority of people.

You know what else this reminds me of? When I was a young woman pregnant with my first child, there were a few embittered, narrow-minded women who were all middle aged (my age now, yikes), who absolutely delighted in telling me how AWFUL childbirth was, and how DIFFICULT it was raising a child, and how UNGRATEFUL their husbands were for their sacrifices. I got the impression they viewed themselves as martyrs. You know ... the type of woman who has major entitlement issues and makes her adult kids feel guilty for not attending to her needs. Anyway, thank God most women aren't like that.

You should just not hang out with these people.

<Edit> - (I read the other posts)

It's true that you were socialized differently than birth-women, so if there is a difference, it is only that. If some random woman tells you that you are not like her, then maybe she means that you both have different backgrounds and you both learned different things about gender-roles, without necessarily dismissing your feelings about your gender identity?

But I have a question ... they said that to your face while you were presenting as a woman, knowing that you are in the same boat as the people they were criticizing? Sorry but I don't know if you are just beginning to transition and are still presenting male?

So if you were presenting male at the time AND they don't know you are transitioning, here's another thought. People have sketchy ideas about things. They'll spout off about things they only know of peripherally, things they have no personal experience with or connection to. Everyone does this. But, when they are actually presented with a situation and it is right there in front of them, it becomes more real and attitudes change. They don't know the people they were criticizing if they were talking about Caitlin Jenner and other TSs in the media. But you! If they know and like you, then I'm sure they would not have said such things to your face? And likely, knowing you will help them move from their not fully-formed opinions (how can they be formed if they don't know any transwomen), to realizing that transwomen are real people with real feelings just like everyone else, and they live among them. So if these are women that you see frequently like coworkers, and if they get to know you as Erin, their opinions about transwomen in general will change.

I know this is different than the first part of my post, but then I went down the thread to read your other post. At first, I took it you were presenting as Erin and they were saying that to you directly.

And if you were in fact presenting as Erin, then I'll go back to the first part of my post and advise you to find other GGs to hang out with.

<Edit again> - I just read Misty's post. Bang on.

[Brooklyn]

Not everyone gets the manual before we interact with them. All people are real, some people happen to be trans, and trans people can be at various stages of experience in their target gender. If there is any sorority I experience, it is probably the one among the “real” trans-women who transition early, or have finished transition, and know what a newbie I still am. In any case, I have lived in both genders, as well as someone in-between. How many people have the opportunity to do that?

I just took a job for 2/3rds of my old salary, so I got the pay-gap covered.

[Angela Campbell]

I have had no problems with acceptance from my gg friends. Some know about my past, some don't. But I am very choosy when picking friends.

[Gerrijerry]

I simply don't care anymore what others feel I am, or if they understand or not.
I am, what I am. I am living a full life with other people. Yes, I said people, not considering their gender or mine.
That is what a person should want.
The people who find a need to question me about gender I simple say.
It is between me and who every created me in the first place.
No one else is qualified to make a judgement.
I was a male. I am now a woman. Mistakes happen, you correct mistakes if you can.

[KellyJameson]

I tend to be sympathetic to cis-gendered women. I understand how high the costs can be to be born as a cis woman. Understanding this was partly why I fought against transitioning so hard. I understood very well what I would be transitioning "into"

Sexism and sexual objectification can crush your soul and I'm always amazed when I meet a woman who seems immune to its affects.

Often to be a woman is to be seen as a lesser in men's eyes.

On the other hand there is such a thing as cis privilege, but much like male privilege it is largely invisible to the privileged class.

It is human nature to see how we have things hard compared to others and not our advantages to others. The cup is half empty instead of half full attitude.

Part of the problem is victim empowerment where the person who has suffered the greatest injustices has the most social value. This identification with suffering tends to be exclusionary and you can see how it is used to earn ones identity.

There is a quote by Simone de Beauvoir “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman” in "The second sex"

De Beauvoir presents an ambiguous picture of human freedom, in which women struggle against the apparent disadvantages of the female body.

This in my opinion is exactly correct and why cis women may have a difficult time accepting trans women as equals.

I always acknowledge the validity of this argument but try to communicate the loss of human freedom when you are born "without a body" as the prison of a un-transitioned transsexual woman.

Two types of women who have suffered loss of the freedom " to be" through their respective biologies.

It is not a gender thing but a human thing labelled gender, resulting in cross talk.

It is very difficult to communicate the sense of this but it can be done with patience, humility, empathy and compassion.

I transitioned to become more fully human as that freedom and opportunity "to be"