Femininity and Female Identity

[Veronica27]

I remember a few decades ago, when a lot of people (mostly women) spoke and wrote about the need for men to get in touch with their feminine side. They were not meaning wearing pretty dresses and makeup, but that men should participate more in child rearing, household tasks and opening up to others about their feelings. There was rarely any mention of women embracing their masculine side as it was a foregone conclusion that they quite often did. This speaks volumes about how society has always viewed traditional masculinity and femininity. Men tend to be protective of the masculine role as representing strength and power, while women face the "challenge" of competing in this male environment. As a consequence we tend to admire the woman who openly expresses her masculinity by being adventurous, involved in rigorous sports or taking on what was traditionally a male only occupation or profession. The occasional wearing of male oriented clothing has come to be expected and is a non issue. On the other hand we tend to place scorn on a man for going beyond the "prescribed" expectations of child rearing etc. Any further expression of femininity such as clothing, mannerisms etc. are taboo and he can expect derision and worse if he is not extremely careful.

But what are masculinity and femininity? Is the former the exclusive preserve of the males while the latter is found only among the females? Of course not, and the above paragraph illustrates how society does not actually think that. So what then is female identity? Is it the possession of a tremendous degree of "femininity"? The answer is probably a resounding no, as any female member of the armed forces or fire department would tell you. They can compete on a par with their male work colleagues, or be as dainty and feminine as anyone when out on a special date, and they would most definitely consider themselves to be women. Similarly, I and many other crossdressers can look, act and even feel as feminine as any woman, and still consider ourselves to be men.

So how do we determine whether we are getting in touch with our feminine side or identifying as a woman? This is a perplexing question which we can sometimes answer for ourselves, but cannot come up with any overriding rules that fit all, as it is such a highly subjective thing. To answer this for my self, I have devised the following theory.

Masculinity and femininity are elements of human nature, and as human beings we possess the capacity to feel and express all aspects of both to some degree. These, like all the other elements of human nature are subject for that degree to influences such as genetics, environment, experience, heredity, intellect, talent, intuition and so on. As a result, we arrive at a sort of compendium of all these elements that we call our own unique personality, with the capability of being all things, but the likelihood of being a select few. Society, over the ages has tended to look upon some of these elements of human nature as being more masculine in nature and some as being more feminine in nature. It is all very abstract, but it influences how we approach life and our role within it, and it has shown signs of changing from era to era or place to place. A masculine man at one point in history might be viewed as somewhat effeminate in another. My personal feminine side, in all likelihood, is a much more prominent part of my personality than that of the average male, and thus I feel a desire to express and experience that side of my nature, with crossdressing being my preferred outlet. I have no interest in many other typically female types of pursuits however and sense no feeling whatsoever of being female or a woman or even of wanting or desiring to be one. Wanting to emulate in appearance and possibly some mannerisms is quite different from wanting to "be", or feeling that you "are". It encompasses things like attraction, desire, envy, curiosity and so on in an entirely different fashion, and includes factors such as adventure, escapism, relaxation, etc. that have an entirely different significance.

Identity is a more difficult concept to explain, and I must admit to having no answers other than I do not know because I sense no incongruity between my biological sex and my gender identity. From what I have read, those males who identify as female do not necessarily possess more or even less femininity than I do, or for that matter many non crossdressers do. Femininity and gender identity seem to have no bearing on each other, despite sometimes sharing a very strong personality characteristic.

If anyone has any personal insights as to the nature of or causes of a gender identity differing from ones biological sex, I would be very interested in hearing them.

Veronica

[Ezekiel]

Feminity and masculinity are terms that, like you said, vary so much and are subjective, usually associated with a level of prevalence of characteristics expressed in one gender and another, establish a normality, and then call that feminine or masculine personality.

This vary from society to society of course, as what is expected in behavior, rules, norms, etc.

Take for example arab men. You might see them in the street hand in hand walking together. This is in no way considered feminine in arab territories.
However, in the west this might be considered to be gay or they would be asked if they are a couple. This exemplifies how subjective the terms masculinity and feminity, socially wise, are.

Masculinity and feminity, understood as traits and in general view by society, can be understood as expression and mannerism.
It is thought that women are more expressive than men on average, so it is categorized as a more feminine trait. The less expressive you are, the more likely you will be perceived as masculine. This of course, is very simplistic, but its probably how most people perceive it on a superficial level.

In the end however, whats defined as masculine and feminine, can only be understood as a subjectivity that has been normalized from the observation of the average traits commonly displayed in each gender. What you get from such a view is, of course, not very meaningful and is narrow.


Masculinity and femininity are elements of human nature, and as human beings we possess the capacity to feel and express all aspects of both to some degree.

Evidently many people would be more at ease if society wasn't so judgemental on how people express themselves, and we would see how true this line is. We are not the only ones repressed, we are just one of the most obvious groups who express themselves different to the rigid male and female accepted behaviors.

My guess is that very few are completly are on the extremes on this aspect, and the rest are in between on a spectrum.


Society, over the ages has tended to look upon some of these elements of human nature as being more masculine in nature and some as being more feminine in nature. It is all very abstract, but it influences how we approach life and our role within it, and it has shown signs of changing from era to era or place to place. A masculine man at one point in history might be viewed as somewhat effeminate in another.

Exactly, society is at fault for making things rigid in this aspect, and it does influence everybody a lot in their lives. If there was truly freedom, as I said before we would see how "androgynous" people actually is, but keeps repressing some parts of their personality, as small as they might be, just to conform to the norm and not be bullied.

Societal patriarchy looks down on what it calls feminity and considers it weak. Since this world is highly competitive because of capitalism, emphasis is placed on being tough and typical macho, so not to be seen as weak, and thus preserve the goals in life people aspire to.

And like you said, the perceptions of masculinity and feminity, just like anything else, change from era to era, from society to society.

The british men for example, in curly wigs and colorful dressing of 18th century. Or color pink, how it changed from a masculine color to a feminine one, and blue was a feminine one, now considered masculine. Esentially they reversed it.

Honestly, all very stupid and arbitrary, all these we have to deal with.


From what I have read, those males who identify as female do not necessarily possess more or even less femininity than I do, or for that matter many non crossdressers do. Femininity and gender identity seem to have no bearing on each other, despite sometimes sharing a very strong personality characteristic.

Indeed, gender is one thing and personality is another, very different thing, even they might be related at some point, perhaps in their pivotal area?

I can only speak for myself, but I am male and my identity as such is very strong. My personality could also be considered typically male in many aspects.
However, I crave to have the image of a woman. I admire how females look, an admiration so deep regarding their facial features and body shape, except for breasts, that I'm in love with. I'd like an FFS and some cosmetic hip widening to attain this, I just don't have the money for it, nor my current situation would permit me do. Time will say.

To society this is basically a gay behavior / consideration or they would think I'm TS.

But I am all male, and I do not wish to be perceived differently to that. As subjective as considerations are, my subjective view on masculinity includes this I have just expressed.

On further analysis of the subject of identity and what feminity / masculinity means, we should perhaps ask a TS, who might help us understand what is it to be a woman with the body of a man (or viceversa, but given the absence of FtMs here, for practical reasons I would ask an MtF transsexual)

[Saikotsu]

Good evening,
I recently posted a thread in the transsexual forum exploring the meaning of femininity and masculinity. I called it, "I've been thinking...". You may want to check it out to see what others have said. I'll do my best to paraphrase what was said though.

Essentially, a lot of people told me to be myself, that gender is ultimately subjective and undefinable. I believe you too have come to this conclusion based on what you have stated.

However, since you asked, I'll happily offer my own perspective on gender identity. I'm quite fond of discussing it, actually.

I identify as gender fluid. For me, gender identity is a fluid, ever changing, fluctuating state. It shifts from day to day, sometimes hour to hour. This morning, for instance, I was seriously tempted to wear my bra and forms in to work today. I was so attached to my female identity that I didn't want to come in to work today presenting as a male. I would rather call in sick so I could present in a manner consistent with my identity than go in to work and present as a gender I didn't feel I was.

Now, at the end of the day (having gone to work anyway) I feel more masculine than feminine. Being a male doesn't bother me, and I feel like I'm presenting accurately for who and what I am. I have no strong desire to be a woman at the moment. AT THE MOMENT. There have been days where I hate my male body and fervently wish I was a woman. Now isn't one of them.

I've had days where I have felt 100% female. On those days, "I am a woman". It is a fact, on the level of "the ocean is wet". Despite all the evidence to the contrary, I am a woman on those days.

I have no idea how to explain the why of it. My gender identity simply is. I've experienced days where I feel like I'm something beyond the gender binary. Neither male nor female. Some days I'm a bit of both. Rarely am I 100% on one side.

All in all I feel the most comfortable when I'm feeling mixed. As such, I incorporate elements of both into my appearance and clothing choices.

As for the why....
There are a lot of things I can't explain, but there are some things I can. This is not an addiction. I don't get a rush out of any of this. When I'm wearing women's clothes, or whatnot, I get no rush from it.

My desire to dress in a particular way stems from a desire to feel normal. When I'm dressed as a woman and feel I am a woman, I feel normal. When I'm dressed as a woman and feel like a guy, I feel really off. Likewise, when I'm a girl and dressed like a guy, I feel really off.

Except when I don't. Some days I feel like a tomboy and dress to match up. But the funny thing is, its not about the clothes. Its about lessening the dysphoria. There are days where no amount of clothing can lessen my feeling of being in the wrong body. Then there are days where I'm proud my masculine form.

I have no control over how I feel. This isn't something where I can say, "I'm going to be a girl today". It just happens and I do what I can to deal with it. I hope that shed some light on the question. More likely, it just raised more questions though, right?

[Ezekiel]

Saikotsu, in regards to gender-fluidity. While I understand, to a reasonable extent i'd say, what it entails to feel one gender or another, even though I am not gender-fluid I've read quite a lot about it, I still have some doubts on certain things, and I have a question.

Could it be, that those who identify as gender-fluid, have some kind of dyssociative state of mind that rigidly separates what they perceive as male and female, just because you were grown up, raised in the very shallow gender notions of society?

In other, simpler words, could it be that just because you think that being male means a particular thing and being female another, that you want in your mind to separate them so much that it makes you think you switch genders mentally, just not to mix them both for some unsconscious reason?

I mean with this that it could be a perception of things, and nothing else?

In the end my question might point to another background one, which would be: Can you actually switch genders identity wise? Can you actually go from male to female and viceversa? Or is it all just a dyssiociative mind pattern of what you've been raised to perceive about female and male?

If you do not understand me, knowing that I might be a bit confusing in the wording sometimes, feel free to point it out and I will try to clarify as best as possible.

[Tracii G]

Its different for each person and trying to read into all the whys and how comes seems futile.
Catch phrases like "in the gender binary" just make me think oh here we go someone is trying to go all scientific and try to stick us in a box.

[Ezekiel]

I get your notions Tracii, but if we don't ask ourselves things and analyze concepts, I feel we don't progress. Maybe its not always about progressing towards anything, but it does help understand some things through reason.

[ReineD]

First let's eliminate things that can be both masculine and feminine, so we can then focus on what things make the two genders different:

1. Emotions: happiness, sadness, jealousy, anger, disappointment, nurturing in the sense that both parents will want to pick up and comfort a crying child, the need to bond with others, ... you get the idea. Every human emotion can be experienced by both genders. So the ability to experience emotion is not gender specific and cannot be used to define masculinity vs femininity.

2. What people do: just about every job - CEO, doctor, lawyer, office clerk, sales person, nurse, school teacher, pharmacist, police officer, airline attendant, artist, cabinet maker, upholsterer, chef, software programming, and the list goes on. The exceptions might be jobs that require a lot of physical strength that most women would have difficulty with, but this is a physical difference (see below). Also, both men and women can take care of their kids, change diapers, make financial decisions, mow the lawn, make dinner, drive the kids to a birthday party, etc.

3. Preferences: this list is too varied to mention everything, plus as you mentioned, it constantly changes according to social constructs, for example pink used to be the color for boys 100 years ago but now it is the color for girls. I suppose we could say that women generally like to shop more than men, but I know men who like to shop and women who don't. In terms of general interests, both genders enjoy dining out, camping, hiking, sailing, sports, reading, traveling, the arts, computing, playing music, collecting a variety of stuff.

So what are we left with? Two things (well, really one and a half things):

1. Our physical bodies: the way we look, sound, how much hair we have, the softness or roughness of our skin, what body parts we have, muscle mass, our heights and size of hands and feet in comparison to the other sex, etc. All of these things are determined by hormones. So we could say that testosterone and estrogen determine the differences between males and females, at least insofar as their bodies. Do hormones affect human behavior? I do know that some women are competitive and aggressive and some men are non-competitive and passive and so we need to eliminate hormone-induced behaviors.

A very important part of our physical makeup, is that most of us are hard-wired to seek mates - the "mating-call" if you will. It's how we propagate the species and every species does it. In humans, men are more prone to attract partners through a show of power or wealth (think the babe-magnet car or the sports jock). And girls are more prone to attract partners by adorning themselves and by emphasizing their feminine attributes through makeup, clothes that emphasize their shape, jewelry, etc (although the importance of doing this tends to diminish among many women as they age).

This, I think, is the part that CDers are most attracted to.

2. Social conditioning: boys are treated differently than girls from a young age, so both sexes learn different things. Boys are given guns and trucks whereas girls are given dolls. But, increasingly this is disappearing. Boys and girls are also given gender-neutral toys so as to not limit anyone. Girls now learn to be competitive by playing sports and they are encouraged to choose careers in the STEM fields. Both boys and girls now are into video games, electronics, etc. So lots of current components of social conditioning really belong in the section above, under "things we cannot use to differentiate between boys and girls".

All this to say that if you want to simplify, we are left basically with the physical differences between boys and girls, and how they are driven to attract mates. The birds and the bees and all that. And CDers are attracted to the ways that girls adorn themselves.

:2c:

[Saikotsu]

Saikotsu, in regards to gender-fluidity. While I understand, to a reasonable extent i'd say, what it entails to feel one gender or another, even though I am not gender-fluid I've read quite a lot about it, I still have some doubts on certain things, and I have a question.

Could it be, that those who identify as gender-fluid, have some kind of dyssociative state of mind that rigidly separates what they perceive as male and female, just because you were grown up, raised in the very shallow gender notions of society?

In other, simpler words, could it be that just because you think that being male means a particular thing and being female another, that you want in your mind to separate them so much that it makes you think you switch genders mentally, just not to mix them both for some unsconscious reason?

I mean with this that it could be a perception of things, and nothing else?

In the end my question might point to another background one, which would be: Can you actually switch genders identity wise? Can you actually go from male to female and viceversa? Or is it all just a dyssiociative mind pattern of what you've been raised to perceive about female and male?

If you do not understand me, knowing that I might be a bit confusing in the wording sometimes, feel free to point it out and I will try to clarify as best as possible.

You've found a really diplomatic way of asking, "is it all in your head?" however, I sense no malice in your question, just academic curiosity.

Honestly, I think that all gender identity is a mental construct. It's entirely internal and dependent on one's own perception. Sex on the other hand tends to be more absolute. I have a male body, thus my sex is male. Even in a society with poorly defined gender roles, humans are still able to distinguish sex. If I were to grow up in a society like that, I'm fairly certain I'd still realize that my internal sense of self doesn't always match my external reality.

That I think is the key. Regardless of my ideas of what masculinity or femininity mean (questions I still am grappling with), at the end of the day, I still have to contend with mismatching internal and external identities.

Regarding whether or not I think it's possible to shift gender identities, I would have to say yes.

Earlier, you said that you are male and wish to be perceived as such. You also said that you feel very strongly that you are male.

That is the part of me that shifts. The way I perceive myself and how strongly I feel that my internal self matches my external. That changes. How I wish to be perceived. That changes too. The level of discomfort I feel when my body doesn't match my internal sense of self, that fluctuates as well. Generally speaking, the more male I feel, the less upset I am that I have a male body.

@Reine
Well said. However, I'd like to point out that not all men and not all women try to attract a mate in the same way. Sexuality is as diverse and convoluted as gender identity.

As we all (hopefully) know, the two are not dependent on one another either, so we can have women who try to attract a mate with power and men who try to adorn themselves well and emphasize their masculinity (or femininity. Many a man has tried to woo a potential mate by getting in touch with his feminine side)

[Marcelle]

. . . Could it be, that those who identify as gender-fluid, have some kind of dyssociative state of mind that rigidly separates what they perceive as male and female, just because you were grown up, raised in the very shallow gender notions of society? In other, simpler words, could it be that just because you think that being male means a particular thing and being female another, that you want in your mind to separate them so much that it makes you think you switch genders mentally, just not to mix them both for some unsconscious reason? . . . In the end my question might point to another background one, which would be: Can you actually switch genders identity wise? Can you actually go from male to female and viceversa? Or is it all just a dyssiociative mind pattern of what you've been raised to perceive about female and male?

Hi Ezekiel,

Sorry, you are way off base here in trying to link dissociative identity disorder to those of us who do not fit neatly within the TG spectrum. As Saikotsu indicated it was a very diplomatic way of saying "it is all in your head" but I also I agree the question did not come from a position of malice but misunderstanding. Dissociative identity disorder (aka split personality or multiple personalities back in the day) is characterized by the presence of two or more distinct or split identities or personality states (alters) that continually have power over the person's behavior. The "alters" or different identities have their own age, gender, or race. Each has his or her own postures, gestures, and distinct way of talking. Sometimes the alters are imaginary people; sometimes they are animals. The dissociative aspect is thought to be a coping mechanism -- the person literally dissociates herself from a situation or experience that's too violent, traumatic, or painful to assimilate with his conscious self. During the "switch" the person experiences dissociative fugue/amnesia in which they cannot recall what took place during the presence of the alter nor can the alter remember what occurred during the presence of the conscious self.

So unless the person is experiencing black out periods while presenting female it is unlikely to be a dissociative state. As a person who identifies as both a woman and a man, I can attest that I am fully cognizant of what occurs during whatever gender I choose to identify with (i.e., no black out periods). Indeed my personality is the same in that I have the same wants, desires, emotions and more importantly memories. :)

The issue is that the concepts of femininity and masculinity are societal concepts of what used to be. These concepts were ingrained in child rearing back in the day and have survived to some degree in stereotypical traits associated with each gender. So, when I identify as a woman my presentation changes to align myself with these concepts as they exist today (clothing, mannerisms). However, I do not become a different person irrespective of whether I am in my home with my wife or at work I am still me but at that point in time I am a woman. Many here seem to associate stereotypical feminine traits (shopping, getting nails done, housework, pretty dresses) with gender (being a woman). They are not one in the same anymore than stereotypical masculine traits make you a man. Gender is an internalized sense of self not a collage of feminine or masculine traits. Indeed if I were to ask you what defines you as a man and you cannot speak in terms of traits or societal upbringing based on stereotypical concepts of masculine or feminine . . . how would you define what being a man is?


. . . I am male and my identity as such is very strong. My personality could also be considered typically male in many aspects.
However, I crave to have the image of a woman. I admire how females look, an admiration so deep regarding their facial features and body shape, except for breasts, that I'm in love with. I'd like an FFS and some cosmetic hip widening to attain this, I just don't have the money for it, nor my current situation would permit me do. Time will say.

Now I will say this post does confuse me slightly. You indicate you have a strong male identity yet you wish to alter you body to be more female. Normally surgical alteration to align one's birth sex physiology with a target gender is associated with being TS. Are you saying that you would alter your body to female (FFS, BAS) but still live your life as a man? Or would you live your life as a woman? If it is as a man, I would posit that your male identity is not as strong as you think. ;)

Cheers

Isha

[PaulaQ]

D
Could it be, that those who identify as gender-fluid, have some kind of dyssociative state of mind that rigidly separates what they perceive as male and female, just because you were grown up, raised in the very shallow gender notions of society?


I've only met one (probable) trans person with DID. At least for this person, it presented very differently than any other trans person I've ever met, even others who suffered serious mental illness. I couldn't determine whether or not this person was safe attending my support group, nor whether or not we were safe with her present. When she began to talk about violence against others, coupled with her extreme size and apparent physical strength, I was quite afraid to be around her.

She was nothing like any other trans person I'd met, and I couldn't guess if recommending trans related resources to her was a good idea or not.

No one in our community was prepared to help her - I think she was potentially very dangerous.


Honestly, I think that all gender identity is a mental construct. It's entirely internal and dependent on one's own perception.

I'm very sorry, but I can't agree with this either. I didn't attempt to end my life, and begin a grueling two year transition ultimately concluding with gender reassignment surgery because of some faulty mental construct - presuming you meant a psychological or social construct. You could put me in talk therapy all day long, and it would have had zero impact on the horrible wrongness I felt about my body and my life. My face, my body, and God help me, my dick - all of these things caused me enormous suffering over my life. Indeed, had I not transitioned, death was my only alternative, I could take no more.

I've had a number of cis women here suggest that I simply envy women, or that I'd find out that life as a woman wasn't better than life as a man. Of course they are right about that second part, if not the first, but all of that is irrelevant. I transitioned because I have a woman's brain in a male body. (Trans people debate the semantics of this, but I describe only my own sense of things.)

It's real damned annoying when some man talks over me, ignoring my (correct) input and doing whatever ill-conceived thing he had in mind. This happens to me plenty now. And you know what? It's a hell of a lot more pleasant than living as a man, being the one talking over some woman, and seeing the face of death every time I looked in a mirror. A lot of things that are regrettable about being a woman are still better than that.

My life is worse in every measurable material way now post transition save for one small thing - I can tolerate living it. Indeed, I love my life now. I love who I am and I live with a freedom and authenticity few can imagine.

[Ezekiel]

You've found a really diplomatic way of asking, "is it all in your head?" however, I sense no malice in your question, just academic curiosity.


I'm sorry I didn't want to sound like I'm denying your reality or anything like that. No way. I just hoped to understand more and help me clear a bit of confusion, which you and Isha both did very well.


Sorry, you are way off base here in trying to link dissociative identity disorder to those of us who do not fit neatly within the TG spectrum.

No, I wasn't trying to link it to the disorder, but to dissociation of things, say, compartmentalization in the brain. But you have explained perfectly that what you feel is no such a thing. Thank you, for that is what I was looking for, information from experience.


Gender is an internalized sense of self not a collage of feminine or masculine traits. Indeed if I were to ask you what defines you as a man and you cannot speak in terms of traits or societal upbringing based on stereotypical concepts of masculine or feminine . . . how would you define what being a man is?


Absolutely true, I would define it in the very same grounds you define your state.


Now I will say this post does confuse me slightly. You indicate you have a strong male identity yet you wish to alter you body to be more female. Normally surgical alteration to align one's birth sex physiology with a target gender is associated with being TS. Are you saying that you would alter your body to female (FFS, BAS) but still live your life as a man? Or would you live your life as a woman? If it is as a man, I would posit that your male identity is not as strong as you think.

Been through years of confusion because of this, but no, really, I am not a woman. Just like you described your sense of self through gender, that is pretty much the same I feel even if my body would have been slightly modified.

Its all about the image. What Reine said here:


And CDers are attracted to the ways that girls adorn themselves

Except a bit more extreme in my case. Who knows why, but just as there is a big scale of variation among CDers, I'm probably on one of the poles.


I didn't attempt to end my life, and begin a grueling two year transition ultimately concluding with gender reassignment surgery because of some faulty mental construct - presuming you meant a psychological or social construct

Of course I absolutely agree here, gender is ingrained in the mind, and we all deal with it how we are supossed to.

In the end, all I wanted to know with my post is if it was truly possible to switch genders given its nature of being hardwired in the brain, but now I see how you Isha and Saikotsu experience it, and I'm convinced now. Thanks for helping me understand gender-fluidity.

[Saikotsu]

I'm glad I could help explain things, Ezekiel.

@PaulaQ
I apologize, I meant no offense. I didn't mean to imply that ones internal gender is wrong or a faulty construct. When I said that gender is a mental construct, I meant that we define for ourselves what male, female, and the myriad of other genders mean based on personal and societal cues. Having experienced days where I feel disgust at my masculinity, at my male body, I know to a degree what you've been through and would never want to belittle that.

[Stephanie47]

OK, OK, OK! Will somebody please identify or explain their definition of MASCULINITY! I think it is obvious if there are actions defined as feminine, then there must be actions that define masculinity? No?

I'd bang out some of my lifelong observations, but, I got to get out of my PJ's and do the family grocery shopping. I'll be back later.

[Ally 2112]

This life style or reality that we live in can be very difficult in every spectrum .It can range from acceptance to hating what we do .In the end no matter what anyone says we have to deal with it in our own way .We are all different whether we are transitioning or just a cder
I have wondered many times am i a women trapped in a mans body or am i a man who thinks like a women .In the end i just go with what im doing easier said than done but at the moment it is working
I hope all the best to those who struggle with this i have been there and do not worry about what surveys or scientist think anymore they cannot solve what i do

[Alice Torn]

PaulaQ. I can sure understand some of the things about being a man, that are awful, and like death. Being feared, and considered a possible predator, when out alone, and women look on me as a possible predator, really, really hurts. When i am out dressed as Alice, i also have seen some fear in people i am around, like some mothers with kids, some young women, and the being despised by some men.. And, the pain of longtime friends now wanting nothing to do with me, because i wear womens clothes at times.

[PaulaQ]

I apologize, I meant no offense. I didn't mean to imply that ones internal gender is wrong or a faulty construct. When I said that gender is a mental construct, I meant that we define for ourselves what male, female, and the myriad of other genders mean based on personal and societal cues.

None taken hon.

I agree that most of the social cues for masculinity / femininity are completely arbitrary and change over time. Clothing is a great example of this.

However, there always are differences in behavior between men and women, in every society. I think our minds require these differences, arbitrary though they often are. Some of the differences are reinforced by biology - for example, the pitch of our voices is highly determined by hormones during development. But men's and women's voices differ far more by learned things like resonance, intonation - these things are learned - although physical differences in male and female anatomy make the ways men and women speak more efficient for them.

I think a lot of the more common, natural occurring differences in male and behavior are tendencies that are more efficient or easier on average for one gender or the other. For example - stoicism in men. Newsflash - there are very emotional men and very stoic women. But our hormones do make certain emotional experiences easier, on average. For example, I experience more intense emotions now - it was easier on T to suppress my feelings. (I hated this.) This in no way rigidly determined - it is just easier or more efficient to be that way. Individual differences between people overwhelm these tendencies. But look, all the threads on passing show that our minds are architected to recognize differences in gender.

So it certainly seems reasonable to me that our own internal sense of gender is built into the architecture of our minds.

As for defining masculinity - poor men, they get such a bad rap here! I like men, so I'll talk about things I feel are typically masculine, that I like anyway.
- Strength. T makes you so friggin strong. Yeah, there are women who have great physical prowess, but T is a huge advantage for building muscle. Since I started HRT, I've been shocked at how much strength I've lost.
- Facial / body hair. This varies a lot racially too, but dudes tend to be hairy - especially their faces.
- Immediate sexuality - it's all about being horny on T. My sex drive (which is still very active) is different on HRT. On T, my libido needed satisfaction when it needed it -ASAP. Now? I can just put it on the back burner, or back on the shelf. No big deal. The need for sex is just not so immediate.
- emotion - women tend to cry more easily. The estrogen vs. testosterone makes a difference here. (BTW, its wrong to view tears as weakness.) Men are more stoic. Men tend towards anger more easily - T makes you edgy. A lot of the perceived differences here are just that, perceived. Men's responses are presumed to be the superior ones, which is all kinds of screwed up.)
- Men are expected to hunt / provide / protect, women gather / nest / nurture
- Men are supposed to take the lead in the relationship, taking the initiative.

Masculinity to me is pretty old-fashioned - John Wayne. Masculine men do hard, scary, dangerous stuff without complaint because it has to be done, being strong, being protective, being calm when things are bad. (My boyfriend is a cop, so it's unsurprising I'd find those types of behaviors attractive.)

Again, I'm talking stereotypes here - individuals will vary dramatically from them. There are masculine women. Clearly there are feminine men. None of this is simple and one dimensional, it varies between identity and expression.

[pamela7]

this is a good thread, bringing out points of view and perspective with good insights, good questions, good misunderstandings, wantings to know, and openness.

As some here know, my background is one part psychotherapeutic, and i do have a very good theory of the self, personal constructs and on identity. My researches through clean client navigations have revealed really conclusively that at conception a soul enters the egg, along with the sperm, not always in perfect timing. Souls have gender, but don't need to have gender, in fact the evidence for fluid souls is widespread for those who can read the signals right.
It is perfectly possible therefore to have from conception a mismatched gender from the physical. That is one cause.

A second cause is when the self experiences a trauma (of a positive or negative nature), whereby the self as a result of foreign gender intrusion, now feels of a different gender.

Life-changing events will impact the sponge-like young selves, meaning its easy to fall into becoming a cross-dresser given the right stimuli. However these will not affect a sense of gender ID in their own right.

Human beings are naturally sexual in all orientations, so for a start de-couple sexuality from gender; our sexuality is opportunity and socially programmed by and large, eith early imprinting experiences shaping what follows.

The idea of femininity and masculinity being equally in both physical sexes' bodies is a correct perspective for me. All behaviours are possible except the obvious physical limitations e.g. birthing. All else is socially programmed.

This is the result of 15 years research with 100's of clients, and informed by my reading of the posts of our awesome forum members.

Having said that, while I'm now sure, after months of questioning, that I'm a male who likes to express his feminine (especially clothing), I also would love breasts. For me this is represented by Hapi, the egyptian god of the flood, an ancient and natural archetype of male with feminine moobs!

I have a lot more i could discuss + book on the underlying theory, but please just PM me for dialogue if you like.

xxx Pamela

[Katey888]

How does one follow souls, HRT, Egyptian gods and all that conclusive research...? Tough, but I'll have a bash. :D

Veronica - this has gone a bit off track from your defining paragraph...


Masculinity and femininity are elements of human nature, and as human beings we possess the capacity to feel and express all aspects of both to some degree. These, like all the other elements of human nature are subject for that degree to influences such as ....

I like what you say here - I think it explains well, for me, why we do much of the stuff we do - and a lot of other stuff we don't. The identity bit that comes next is tougher to debug and is part of the reason I came to this place almost a couple years ago because I yearn for an answer as to why my identity apparently seeks this outlet that it does. The difficult part of this is what others have alluded to: what is 'femininity' and its mirror, 'masculinity'?

So much of what has been described here, particularly in Reine's list, are societal constructs. They broadly hold well for western society today, but not so well for other cultures and periods in history. The problem we have deciphering this, is that we're all totally steeped in what those male/female roles in society are about, but I feel Reine's list misses a couple of obvious ones for me that must play a part, and that some have touched on.

The first is sexuality. Admitting that there might be something a little freaky going on sexually with us is a tough one for many here, but not surprising if you accept that we are hugely conditioned to believe that anything other than complete orthodoxy to being 100% heterosexual governs the relations of our modern world. It's bad enough that some of us may be prepared to confess to our partners that we like to express the appearance of the opposite (and generally, their) gender - but to conceive that this might have something more going on about sexuality, our self-image, our self-love, or any possibility we might be seeking to be desired in the way that a woman is...? Uh-uh... ain't gonna happen. I think there's a lot more here that may come out, but there are such barriers in accepting non-hetero behaviour, it's not going to come out in this relatively public forum (and particularly not where members' SOs also frequent... :thinking:)

The other significant aspect unmentioned - but not necessarily playing a part - for women, is motherhood. The ability to create life - uniquely as a gender, and only threatened by artificial processes - although the relative traits of protection, nurture, sacrifice, etc. have been touched on. Surely something as significant as this must engender something like creation envy? I don't know, but I can only imagine it plays a part.

As for identity, I like the idea that the soul, the persona, id, spirit - whatever - is what carries the content that defines our gender too. For most folk, this happens to be aligned with physical gender: male-masculine; female-feminine. For a small minority, it's totally misaligned (transsexuals) and for another small minority (CD/ TG/ genderfluid/ andro etc.) - it's all over the frickin' show! Variable degrees of need for expression; varying degrees of frequency; varying types of expression - a weird and wonderful kaleidoscope of imagery and styles.

I feel like I'm understanding more about this when others here express similar thoughts - but I think the nature of this condition is so wound up with deep and complex persona stuff - rather than just hormones, chromosomes and genomes - that the best I can hope for is that I can construct some sort of philosophy that just helps me deal with it and achieve some sort of internal balance: my masculine with feminine side; my need to express something really outlandish from my natural, physical gender and requires all sorts of artifice to do so...

Interesting thoughts all... Now back to my wine... :wine:

Katey x

[ReineD]

The other significant aspect unmentioned - but not necessarily playing a part - for women, is motherhood. The ability to create life -

Just want to mention that men are instrumental in accomplishing this. There would be no possibility of creating life without them. It is true that women are the incubators but the incubation and lactation periods are short compared to the child-rearing years. A simplistic view is that in times past, when physical work was required in order to survive, it made sense for the stronger of the two to spend more time hunting the food or farming the land, while the weaker engaged in activities that enabled her to tend the children. But increasingly, providing for the family and rearing the child is becoming more equal, giving both parents equal opportunity to bond with the offspring.

[pamela7]

The identity bit that comes next is tougher to debug and is part of the reason I came to this place almost a couple years ago because I yearn for an answer as to why my identity apparently seeks this outlet that it does. The difficult part of this is what others have alluded to: what is 'femininity' and its mirror, 'masculinity'?
Katey x

Why would masculinity and femininity be mirrors? To me they are different aspects, independent but part of all human beings. If one were to look at this like a right-angled pair of axes, then the angle of a personal vector might simply describee one person's orientation in both. The vector might be stationary or it might move around, fluidly, it might oscillate or fluctuate.

There are also effects and influences beyond the personal - the group field. IF humanity is out of balance in terms of femininity, and if many people are closed off to this, then those of us who are open will channel this, we will take it up and express it. It may not be personal at all. Most diseases and impacts in life are not personal, only taken that way due to ego. We're part of a greater whole of humanity, that itself is part of the greater whole of nature.

Now back to my beer ;-)

[Katey888]

@Pamela7: I've obviously been spending waaay too much time in the proximity of mirrors... ;) I think you're reading my meaning as being an opposite and I can see that's misleading as that's not what I mean - I think they are different aspects: the two that traditionally complete the human whole. I'm not sure I see them as completely independent although to me they are distinct and different - perhaps they are more so in cisgendered folk, yielding their binary nature, but not in us...

Now back to my wine.... :)

@Reine: Of course I get that us guys get to have a hand (or other appendage) in the fun part of life creation - and then when the going gets tough, that creating, birthing, raising period falls to you GGs.... biologically, it can't really be any other way. I base my observations largely on my wife's long-term, lyrical waxing of the nature of child-bearing in carrying a child during pregnancy, the feeling of those first practical signs of another life beginning (and kicking like heck!) through the agony of childbirth for her and the ecstasy of those first few moments with her baby boys, and then the maternal bonding that continues during early rearing, right through to a persistent maternal protectiveness that many mums will carry always for their children. And I think that's reflected often in other literature and experiences and I don't feel that male nature would differ much in that our bonding is there but different (in being a doing, providing, male role-model type) but I totally feel the wonder that she has had of facilitating and growing life as part of her, that men can only participate in as - at most - an intimate bystander. I admit I do feel a twinge of both envy and curiosity at that power - the providing and later role-models in life are very society and culture dependent and for me can't compare with that total symbiosis that mother and child experience... maybe I'm unusual in that... back to that wine now... :)

Katey x

[ReineD]

Katey, I think that dads are just as protective of their children as mothers are. It sounds as if in your family, your wife was mostly in charge of the children, but believe me this is not the case for everyone, especially not today in dual income families. In my case, I lost custody of my youngest child to his father when he was 13 and since they moved 2,000 miles away, I only saw him a few times per year. So even the legal system, which is usually slow to catch up to social changes, no longer awards custody solely to the mothers.

The young couples I know with kids are mostly grad students. They both have an equal hand in caring for the kids which is fair, since both parents are doing course work.

[Tina_gm]

I have probably spent more time thinking about what masculinity and femininity is than any other aspect when it comes to gender issues. I find that while there is sooo much on the outside that can appear different, presentation... the actual difference between male and female, is all very subtle. It is that subtle nature though, deep down where there can be difference, and that difference is what I see in true masculine and feminine, regardless of the actual presentation and clothing worn. Just little things that naturally come to a large majority of men and women, but when it comes to those of us within the TG spectrum, we jump to the other track, so to speak.

I could say I do any particular thing, and that alone won't make me masculine or feminine. I could tally it all up, and it then becomes apparent that somewhere, I am wired a bit differently then most men, and have wiring that is more like that of most women. What I wear doesn't make me feminine, perhaps the way I look when I wear it.... but it is the why I want to wear it. Not that a desire to wear women's clothes while not being a woman makes for any actual logic. Unless of course there is something in there somewhere which deviates from that of most men, and more like a woman.

back to the subtlety again I guess, because I cannot really find any complete way of explaining how I "feel" feminine... other then to say I relate to women, and what we perceive as feminine today, as arbitrary or as subjective as that may be, somehow my brain finds its way to that particular side.

Wearing women's clothing feels right to me. walking through the women's section of stores feels right to me. I feel somehow it is for me. When women talk, and how they talk, the types of conversations they have, I can often relate to in ways most men cannot. I "get it" when they feel certain ways. Not all ways mind you, but far more than most men. I have natural mannerisms, and have had them all my life that are what we would consider feminine, at least today, in western culture. It is not simply that I sit, stand, walk, wave my hand or any other way my mannerisms may be that makes me feminine.... not really, but that it naturally happens in ways more like most women then most men. Part of my core is feminine in nature. I don't know why, but it just is. There is not any one thing that can truly describe it and make it so. It is just a totality of my being which aligns me in many ways more like a woman then a man.

[ReineD]

This is food for thought for everyone.

I'm posting a link to a video showing the two recent female graduates of the elite Army Ranger course, in an attempt to eliminate the things that men and women do have in common, so we can focus on and discuss the differences. The women are seated at a table with their fellow male graduates. But even though everyone is wearing fatigues and has buzz cuts, we know which are the two females and we know they are feminine compared to the males. The only clues we have are physical: their voices, their smaller stature, their more delicate facial features. We cannot determine they are women in any other way - not by their clothes or their performance in Ranger school. And they have the same focus and determination as the men, their faces are no more animated when they speak than males.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/20/us/women-graduate-army-ranger-course/

Gendermutt, when you give examples of feeling comfortable with women, you mention wearing women's clothing, walking through the women's section of stores, joining in on women's conversations, and understanding women's emotions. I am not saying you do not feel more comfortable with women, but the things you mention are not applicable to all women. Do you think you would feel comfortable hanging out with my son's SO? She is a sports trainer and does not miss a professional sports game. She isn't into clothes, makeup, etc. She doesn't particularly like to shop. Yet, she is feminine by virtue of having small features, no body hair, and a soft voice. It is true that women go through phases of adorning themselves more than men, but this is to satisfy the requirements of the age-old male/female dynamics together with meeting social standards. Fundamentally, hormones dictate that men pursue. And women adorn themselves so the men can find them! :D. The other things you mention: non-CD men can and do shop comfortably in women's stores for their wives, they're not embarrassed to do so, they also can feel comfortable talking to women and they can understand them. You also mention female mannerisms. I don't know what female mannerisms are, other than the physical differences between the sexes. We do walk differently because we have different centers of gravity. Some women gesticulate when they talk, but some men do as well. Men don't tend to cross their legs as much, but isn't this for comfort due to the different anatomies between our legs? So again, the fundamental differences are physical?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Veronica, There is a lot more to femininity than just dressing up and looking pretty.:hugs:

[Tina_gm]

ReineD- Your link showing the recent female graduates of ranger school is in a way showing a distinction of gender and femininity/masculinity. Yes, we have visual cues as to their physique, facial structure, voice perhaps.... that they are female, but are they feminine? Is what they are doing, becoming elite fighting soldiers considered in any way feminine?

I am glad they are breaking a gender boundary. Good for them they are doing something that they are A. capable of, and B. desire to. To cite a couple of women who are breaking a glass ceiling is not conclusive of the activities of the average women. Quite the opposite really. Even of many women who may have the physical capability to be rangers, how many will want to live the lifestyle? What I am saying is yes, they are women who are doing something that is not considered stereotypical or conventional as women, but that does not make them feminine, it just makes them women doing something that up till now only men have done. Most likely, they are on the masculine side for even contemplating such an endeavor.

As for my own examples- 1st let me just say that on CDers.com, I mostly post about the CD side of me. Kinda self explanatory..... but then again, so is my username. IRL, I live mostly as conventional male. I do not feel tortured by being that, or living it. In fact, I find many opportunities today where I enjoy it. I enjoy fatherhood immensely. I feel frustrated only in that I have set my life up in a way that should I include my feminine aspects of my core identity, it would shake up my life in many many ways, and mostly it would have a negative impact. This site is a primary outlet for me.

In a way, my dual gendered nature I believe allows me to see the nuances of gender differences, and how I can easily relate to both, personally. To say that men can and do feel comfortable shopping with their wives in a women's section is still different than looking at the items with a personal interest. Or When I am with a group of women, vs a group of men, the conversations take on a far different scope, tone, emotional context, and I get both, MOST women don't get how men think, or react to situations, or each other, and vice versa. Many men simply do not get why their wife becomes annoyed with them, when they think they are doing good, trying to do good, and vice versa, but I do get it, on both accounts. It is a blessing and a curse.

As for my mannerisms, 1st I would say that the U.S. is the most guilty of all western culture in this macho masculinized version.... the John Wayne or Clint Eastwood type of mentality. In another thread, I showed a picture of Sean Connery in the mid 1960's as James Bond, crossing his legs at the knee. Hardly anything at the time and in England that would ever be considered anything other than masculine, or even over here at that time. Other than very large people, crossing legs at the knee is not real problematic, or uncomfortable, regardless of what anyone says. Connery at the time was quite athletic and muscular, especially in his legs yet still had no difficulty crossing his legs in this fashion. Today, it is now deemed a feminine trait to do so.... over here anyway. Yes, I cross my legs at the knee because I feel it is a comfortable way to sit, not because I feel it is something done as feminine expression. I would say that overall, any of my mannerisms that others have pointed out to me as being feminine are not done TO BE feminine, it is just things that I do that are done without conscious thought. Gesticulating is done by both genders, but there are differences as to the ways in which they are done, subtle ways. Ways in which are considered feminine by most.

As for emotions and how I think, my wife has said to me on many occasions that I "think" like a girl at times, or I will rationalize, empathize, obsess on certain things... like a girl, or woman. It doesn't make me one, I do not identify as one, but I believe that those ways in which my internal wiring leads me to cross gender behavior and thought patterns deem me to be feminine. Others have said it to me, described me as such at times. It is subjective granted, but, IMO anatomy itself does not make femininity or masculinity, it just makes for male and female.

[Veronica27]

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have learned a great deal from the various thoughts and views, and a few things have been clarified in my thoughts. When I asked "what is masculinity and femininity", I was thinking in terms of generalities and not specifics. Some have discussed specifics at length, which is fine with me because it helps to understand how their thought processes are working in arriving at their conclusions. The identity side of things remains a difficult one to analyse however. I think that part of this difficulty arises out of terminology and the way it is used not only by our community but by society generally. Some observations are:

People, generally, tend to use the word "gender" when what they are referring to is "sex"
Additionally, they tend to use the word "sex" when they are discussing any form of genital intimacy.
People tend to think of "masculinity" and "femininity" as being descriptions of man and woman respectively.

Gender is a grammatical term for the allocating of words into separate categories. Those categories are masculine, feminine and neutral. In English, this is mostly limited to pronouns such as he, she and it, or his, her's and its. In French, it extends to articles, which in English are the and a, but in French are le and la, or un and une. Thus inanimate objects are given a gender in French. This allocation of things was probably loosely based on which sex made the most use of them, or tended to build them etc. but in modern society these distinctions are extremely blurred. Over the ages, gender has come to be synonymous with sex, perhaps because of the inaccurate uses of the word sex. However, the original meaning of gender was masculine, feminine or neutral, and not man and woman, or male and female. Over the ages, every society has determined what characteristics it considers to be masculine and which ones feminine, based on its observations and expectations of each sex. Thus the tendency has been to equate masculinity with the male and femininity with the female.

The major change in thinking in recent years, is that gender is not so much a factual division of humanity into two genders, in the same manner as sex, but rather a sliding scale of how each individual identifies themselves. Additionally, one's place on this scale is also variable depending on mood, situation etc. For this reason, gender identity is a very difficult subject to comprehend. I identify as male, because I tend to think in terms of sex. I possess all the physical attributes of the male and thus I never feel that I am female. My personality contains a fairly high recognition of my feminine qualities, which I think every male possesses to a degree, and thus I have discovered that crossdressing is a means of expressing those feelings and emotions. I feel somewhat feminine (based on my understanding of those qualities), but I don't feel like a woman because I lack the physical attributes. To me this is my sexual identity, no matter how I am dressed.

I don't know what my gender is. I feel masculine and my masculinity dominates my femininity. There was some discussion about "association" and "dissociation" as perhaps explaining some of this. As pointed out, we don't mean in a split personality sense, but simply what we have come to associate as being masculine or feminine. Because of this and the equating of gender to sex, some may feel their sense of their masculinity versus their femininity represents their gender, while others, namely the crossdressers feel that this can not alter their identification as their sex. It is a very interesting theory, but I remain somewhat confused on that aspect of TG.

Veronica

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Reine - Over the past few months you've developed a very strong opinion that the only true differences between men and women are physical, and that aspects of personality and behavior exhibit such overlap between the sexes that they should be rendered meaningless as a means of distinction. Now I do not doubt the veracity of your view, but I think if you asked the average person on the street "are men and women different?" most would say yes, and they would probably cite things that could be refuted by providing a strong counter-example. Still, there are such things as general tendencies that are useful to make distinctions. They may not hold up to every specific case, but they are often reliable patterns. Most of those tendencies are socially programmed, but that does not make them any less real. Its a basic problem we have in biology because there is always a lot of variation about a trait within any group being studied. When comparing two different groups a distinction can only be recognized by seeing if the variation within each group is smaller than the variation between the two. I would like to see data regarding differences in emotional expression, preferred activities and all the other things conventional wisdom says makes women different from men. I have yet to see any, so I will not make assumptions as to the outcome, but they have to be out there somewhere. When trying to develop any generalization statistical tools are our best option.

Bridget

[ReineD]

Reine - Over the past few months you've developed a very strong opinion that the only true differences between men and women are physical, and that aspects of personality and behavior exhibit such overlap between the sexes that they should be rendered meaningless as a means of distinction.

I don't believe that physical differences are the only true differences between men and women. I'm saying they are the strongest observable differences, since there are similarities and overlaps in everything else.


I would like to see data regarding differences in emotional expression, preferred activities and all the other things conventional wisdom says makes women different from men. I have yet to see any, so I will not make assumptions as to the outcome, but they have to be out there somewhere. When trying to develop any generalization statistical tools are our best option.


I agree, and I haven't seen any studies either. Even if studies did show that some traits are more feminine or masculine, how could we ever determine whether the cause is social or biological? Also, how could the sample sizes be large enough and could the studies be replicated with the same results in different parts of the world? So I have relied instead on personal observation based on conventional wisdom. I'm not saying that men and women are the same. Again I'm saying that the strongest observable differences in this very complex world of ours are related to the physical (women have softer voice, smaller size, softer skin, finer features, they walk and sit differently, etc, on top of the basic biological functions of both sexes).

We know there are some women who are ultra-feminine, and some men who are ultra-masculine. But others? Not so much. We also know that femininity and masculinity is in part socialized. What women consider is feminine in some remote countries in Africa for example, might not at all be considered feminine here, in terms of choosing a style of adornment. As to tasks, the differences I do observe are those, again, related to the physical. Men tend to take on the more strenuous physical jobs, and women tend to spend more time with the babies. But increasingly in our culture, the gap between both genders' traditional roles is narrowing because we no longer depend on physical tasks to survive, and most families are now comprised of dual income earners. This does not make both sexes the same (they still are attracted to each other and they still procreate), but it does eliminate a great deal that we used to use, to define the differences.

These are the sentiments I don't agree with, that are often written here: women are interested in different things than men; women enjoy shopping more than men; women are more capable of empathy and nurturing than men; women bond more among themselves than men do, (and other statements that don't immediately come to mind). We cannot put all women and men in a box like that. These statements may be true for some people, but they are not for others. And the conclusion drawn by the CDers who say these things is that if they are interested in knitting, like to shop for dresses, get along with kids, and enjoy talking to women, it must then mean they are feminine.

These CDers may well feel feminine, and some may even have gender dysphoria. But, using the statements above is not a definition of femininity nor is it a prognosis for GD, since some women and men do have the same interests, some men do like to shop and some women don't, men are equally capable of empathy and nurturing than are women, and men's bonds are just as strong as women's bonds. So the things I have read many CDers identify with in this forum are not exclusive to women, are not shared by all women, and are also shared by men. Hence my attempt at pointing out the observable differences.

I'm struggling to express this because the question of differences between males and females is so complex and I hope I'm not coming across too abruptly. I view this as a discussion and hope that others will add to it.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

I have to say I am in general agreement with Reine's last post, especially the part about CDers thinking they are feminine because they like fashion or socializing with female friends. I think its more the other way around. We feel feminine (for whatever reason) and that's what drives us to pursue interests that our society has deemed feminine. Put us in a different culture and the result would still be a pursuit of whatever that culture defines as feminine.

Great discussion all around.

Bridget

[ReineD]

We feel feminine (for whatever reason) and that's what drives us to pursue interests that our society has deemed feminine.

But what interests does society deem feminine, specifically? This is what I am wanting to pinpoint. Men who do not crossdress do everything that CDers do (feel comfortable shopping for their wives, they are friends with and hang out with women, they enjoy ballet (to the extent that women enjoy ballet), they change diapers and do household chores), except they do not present as women nor do they desire to wear women's clothing. This, I think is the only interest that society deems feminine?

[Katey888]

This is interesting and I think is highlighting the difference between some deeper thinking and more stereotypical ideas. It is complex and is more difficult for any of us to be objective as we are all so intimately involved with the feelings that we believe we are expressing and observing.


I don't believe that physical differences are the only true differences between men and women. I'm saying they are the strongest observable differences, since there are similarities and overlaps in everything else.

I agree, and I haven't seen any studies either. Even if studies did show that some traits are more feminine or masculine, how could we ever determine whether the cause is social or biological? Also, how could the sample sizes be large enough and could the studies be replicated with the same results in different parts of the world? So I have relied instead on personal observation based on conventional wisdom. I'm not saying that men and women are the same. Again I'm saying that the strongest observable differences in this very complex world of ours are related to the physical (women have softer voice, smaller size, softer skin, finer features, they walk and sit differently, etc, on top of the basic biological functions of both sexes).

This should be qualified to make clear that these physical differences are based on averages of men and women for western society and of generic caucasian ethnicity. Even within this I believe that there are cultural divisions (between, for example, the USA and UK) that are strong enough to impact how culture defines the societal aspects of behaviour and our individual interpretation of femininity and the male/female roles in society. I think some of these beliefs are highly individual, but that some can be demonstrated to be more widespread. I would expect that everyone agrees the physical differences on average, are obvious and demonstrable?

It's the more intangible aspects that are difficult to pin down, but I do think, Reine, you're missing something here:


These are the sentiments I don't agree with, that are often written here: women are interested in different things than men; women enjoy shopping more than men; women are more capable of empathy and nurturing than men; women bond more among themselves than men do, (and other statements that don't immediately come to mind). We cannot put all women and men in a box like that. These statements may be true for some people, but they are not for others. And the conclusion drawn by the CDers who say these things is that if they are interested in knitting, like to shop for dresses, get along with kids, and enjoy talking to women, it must then mean they are feminine.

These may be stereotypes but they are stereotypes for a reason: the behaviour of large numbers of normal people support these things for me - they are not absolutes, but they are trends that are supported by society. One could go further and suggest that these differences are actually strongly promoted by some aspects of society (media and publishing, for example) but reality supports this too, even though much of the behaviour may well be based on cultural or societal constructs. Take one of your examples: women enjoy shopping more than men - in general, I see this as being true (I hate shopping personally; my wife could do it 24/7; but clearly that does not apply to 100% of women or men) - but if you start to dissect why more women do shop compared with men (I think this could be proven statistically), then I think there are societal reasons behind this - conforming; fashion; business; attracting; competing; opportunity... all play a part in just one aspect of our differences but they are culturally and societally driven.

When CDers express their need to reflect those aspects, I think all many folk are doing is reflecting their perception of how society would apply a label of femininity to affirm their own expression and feelings. I don't think that's wrong - and it's probably not calculated a lot of the time; it's subconscious. We want to be associated with the aspects that society as a whole accepts as definably feminine, whether that is appearance, behaviour, mannerisms, or feelings.

I think I can understand why cisgender folk and TS folk have difficulty in understanding how anyone could feel two 'genders' within one identity - I know I have difficulty understanding the feelings myself. But perhaps try to think of it another way...
Even cisgender folk have difficulty in describing what they feel as being masculine or feminine - but if you were able to suspend disbelief for a while and just accept that some people have these competing aspects within themselves - imagine how confusing and disorientating it would be to try to rationalise or describe the feelings when those aspects manifest themselves. That is why I think most people defer to what appears to be a simplistic view of how society accepts femininity and the behaviour and roles that are stereotypical, but you have to accept the validity of that view first. :)

It is complex, but most people will distill the description down to something very simplistic.

Katey x

[ReineD]

- but if you were able to suspend disbelief for a while and just accept that some people have these competing aspects within themselves -

I do accept. I also attempted to define here, since this was the thread topic.



It is complex, but most people will distill the description down to something very simplistic.


I agree this is complex and frankly I find the complexity at times is overwhelming since we cannot discuss all facets in forum posts. People tend to only focus on one facet at a time, when there are multiple facets to consider at once like the double slit experiment. For example, there is a difference between someone who identifies as a woman, someone who identifies as a man, someone who feels they are women or gender fluid despite what they are wearing, someone who feels they are women or gender fluid only when they dress, and someone who feels they are men when they dress. So basically, is it a question of having one objective truth (an essential definition for woman and an essential definition for man), or is there no such thing and everyone is who they say they are despite all appearances. I think that in the world outside this community, people will know who is a woman or a man. In this forum? Not so much. And what about the battles surrounding the definitions of woman vs female, and man vs male? It is confounding.

Anyway, there is value in attempting to simplify the complexity of definitions to something that will lead to common language. But, using examples of behaviors that do not define the essence of femininity I don't think is the way to do it, since people in and out of this community will disagree on the essence of femininity.

I know that CDers can agree among themselves on what is essentially feminine though, as you say it is easiest to describe stereotypical behaviors. But, if they want family, friends, and the world at large to get on board, they'll need to try a different approach in my opinion, since their definitions of femininity will not mesh with other people's experiences.

---------------

So here is a paradox that I'm sure will be answered differently by everyone. When I use "you", I mean a universal "you", not just you, Katey:

You say you feel feminine and you want others to perceive you as being feminine. Do you want others to accept that you feel as a woman (a man who enjoys dressing as a woman), or do you want them to believe that you are a woman when you dress. In other words, does it matter if their perception of you is not the same as how you feel internally. By "others" I mean the people in your lives, the people here, and pure strangers.

[pamela7]

these days so much is knowable, especially with good process questions. One of the few mysteries left is why we crossdress. You know what? Enjoy the mystery, lighten up, and have fun; that is enough of a purpose for me.

xxx Pamela

[ReineD]

these days so much is knowable, especially with good process questions. One of the few mysteries left is why we crossdress. You know what? Enjoy the mystery, lighten up, and have fun; that is enough of a purpose for me.


Pamela, I appreciate your sentiment, but you make an assumption about me that I feel bound to correct. When you say "lighten up" it implies that I need to be less gloomy and more cheerful?

I just want to tell you that an appreciation for analysis and the willingness to type it out does not, in my case, mean that I am gloomy and that I am not light-hearted. It does indicate, however, that I've had free time these last few days. :)

To participate or not in discussions such as these is optional. Not everyone enjoys analysis. But, I could do the same to you. I could say that your criticism of the discussion indicates an unwillingness to know yourself. But I won't say it because I know that doing so would only be an assumption on my part.

[pamela7]

Ah sorry Reine, i did not mean you specifically, I meant more generally us cross-dressers - and as you're not one per se, you're not accused of being too serious :-)

[Veronica27]

these days so much is knowable, especially with good process questions. One of the few mysteries left is why we crossdress. You know what? Enjoy the mystery, lighten up, and have fun; that is enough of a purpose for me.

xxx Pamela

I agree with you from the standpoint of wishing that this was how things were. I would like a society where I could be completely open and honest with my family and close friends about my crossdressing desires. However, this so complex that they wouldn't understand, and I don't know how I could possibly explain it to them, when I am still searching for answers myself. My choice is to remain in the closet, or have them be suspicious of my motivations and behaviour in ways I may never have dreamed about. I don't want to spend my remaining days having to deny that I am this or that depending on what they may glean from the media or other misinformed individuals. Popular notions about this whole thing tend to change from time to time depending upon who happens to be in the news for whatever reason. In the meantime, I do exactly what you describe, but in the privacy of my own home, and put myself to sleep at night contemplating the deeper mysteries of it all.

Veronica

[ReineD]

Ah sorry Reine, i did not mean you specifically, I meant more generally us cross-dressers - and as you're not one per se, you're not accused of being too serious :-)

Oops sorry. I've been posting a lot in this thread these last few days and I assumed you meant me. My mistake.

[pamela7]

Yes indeed Veronica, but here's the rub - we don't know why, we won't know why, all we can do is to come to a peace and acceptance that we do cross-dress. Going further, the transitioners already know they're females in male bodies. So the clear question left is whether one is CD, fluid or TS. If you don't know for sure then don't transition. If someone else needs to know then you crossdress cos you like it, end of story.

I was helped a couple of weeks ago by a little child asking me why I was wearing women's clothes. The answer I now have is: "they're not women's clothes, they're mine."

[ReineD]

However, this so complex that they wouldn't understand, and I don't know how I could possibly explain it to them, when I am still searching for answers myself. My choice is to remain in the closet, or have them be suspicious of my motivations and behaviour in ways I may never have dreamed about.

Ok. This may be too simplistic, but there is one thing you can say that no one in your family can argue with. You can simply tell them that although you know this is not common, you do enjoy presenting (or dressing) as a woman. If they ask why, the response can be that they should explain to you why THEY have the preferences they have. Can anyone explain why they prefer art over playing sports, or why they obtain such deep satisfaction over doing anything they love to do?

If they object, it is because maybe because they think there is something wrong with men who enjoy looking like women. They need to realize that although at one time this was considered strictly fetishistic, it is no longer.

But the minute you get into explaining this as a female gender identity (if you are not transitioning), you risk having them scratch their heads for two reasons: one, if it is a choice for you to remain closeted it means there is an option for you to live as a man, and if this is the case, then there is a conflict between what you do and what you say. Two, if you tell them that dressing as a woman is what a feminine identity means to you, they will point out that presentation is only one aspect. Also, if it is simply a matter of enjoying spending time with women and talking to them, they know you can do this when you are dressed as a male.

The people who say they are gender-fluid (who do not attempt to mask or explain away the fact they have chosen to live as men) I think have the best chances of being understood, if they are fortunate enough to be living among open-minded people. This, I believe, is because everyone has their own personal definition of what gender-fluid means and it does not necessarily conflict with what they think their CDer's default gender identity is.

That said (and for the benefit of any TSs reading), what I say above does not apply to people who transition. I am not implying that birth-males cannot have a female gender identity and transition.

... I just read Pamela's post, who said the same thing in a lot fewer words. lol

[pamela7]

yes, I mean, North of our border lies a country pronounced like this: "Skirtland", where the men wear skirts (called "kilts"), and carry purses (called "sporrans"). Musicians and performers wear make-up, do their nails. Celebrities wear leggings and blouses. Vicars wear "robes" (long dresses). Dress as you will.

[ReineD]

LOL. So that's why the UK seems a more accepting place than here.

[Katey888]

Good points Reine... :)

And I'm with Veronica on the 'still searching for answers' perspective - believe me, I wouldn't keep chewing the fat here if I was happy enough to just trot off because "it makes me feel good and I don't need to know why..." There are probably all sorts of other <worse> things I'd be doing if I had that kind of philosophy...


So basically, is it a question of having one objective truth (an essential definition for woman and an essential definition for man), or is there no such thing and everyone is who they say they are despite all appearances. I think that in the world outside this community, people will know who is a woman or a man. In this forum? Not so much. And what about the battles surrounding the definitions of woman vs female, and man vs male? It is confounding.

I think this is one of those things at the core of the difficulty. I'd bet 99% of folk who don't experience this condition have never even considered those definitions - it just is to them... To us it is something so much more relevant to our daily lives where some of us are caught between the feelings of experiences that satisfy us (a mix of normal and 'irregular' things we feel are feminine) but who in the guy cis-world thinks to themselves: "Wow - I feel masculine today..." This is why parallels with stereotypes are easier to get understanding of - trying to explain how the two internal feelings of being me, when me can be how I look in my avatar and Mr Ordinary otherwise, can coexist to someone with just a one-dimensional gender existence, would be next to impossible. imho... I'm almost tempted to come out to my wife just to prove it... :lol: So thanks for trying Reine. :D

I think your final question has been put before but it's worth re-examining, even though the premise has to be simplistic (I don't mean that pejoratively - just that it has to be as it's what we're struggling with here :)) I don't think I'm a woman when I dress or at any other time. If you'd asked me a few years ago before coming here, I wouldn't have thought I was anything but a man with a kink... Now...? I'm becoming more convinced that I am not 100% male by any means, but that I do experience a capacity (and need) to express behaviour (with presentation as part of that) which our society normally considers feminine. I'd think it great if everyone's perception aligned with mine, but given what I said earlier, that's pretty unlikely right now and for the forseeable... :)

Pamela - I'm going to paraphrase a great man here for why some of us need to analyse this: we don't choose to do this because it's easy - we willingly do this even though we know it's going to be hard, but some of us need to keep trying and teasing out a little more understanding each time we discuss it. :)

It always makes me chuckle how these discussions are interspersed with the 'lighten up' comments - Folks: if it makes your head ache or your eyes bleed, you don't have to read any of this... just move to the next section down... ;)

Katey x

[pamela7]

Pamela - I'm going to paraphrase a great man here for why some of us need to analyse this: we don't choose to do this because it's easy - we willingly do this even though we know it's going to be hard, but some of us need to keep trying and teasing out a little more understanding each time we discuss it. :)
Katey x

I think that's the beginning of it for many of us - "because it's hard". :-))

Ok, seriously. ALL human beings have the capacity for full expression of behaviours, languages, clothing choices, gender identity, and due to dna influences (ancestral), life conditioning, we emerge and evolve into our present selves. Mostly, folks are conditioned well into society and don't even notice there's something missing. Then there's us: we do notice, and we do something about it.

[Veronica27]

I was helped a couple of weeks ago by a little child asking me why I was wearing women's clothes. The answer I now have is: "they're not women's clothes, they're mine."

A great answer. I can see it satisfying my youngest grandson (2 years old) but not his 35 year old father.

Veronica

[Veronica27]

Ok. This may be too simplistic, but there is one thing you can say that no one in your family can argue with. You can simply tell them that although you know this is not common, you do enjoy presenting (or dressing) as a woman. If they ask why, the response can be that they should explain to you why THEY have the preferences they have. Can anyone explain why they prefer art over playing sports, or why they obtain such deep satisfaction over doing anything they love to do?

... I just read Pamela's post, who said the same thing in a lot fewer words. lol

The other day I read a post that itemized the concerns with telling family members in a very succinct and brief way. Unfortunately I can't remember who wrote it or what thread it was in. It is nice to think that they will all be understanding or as some have said if they can't accept it, it is their problem. However in the family dynamic, you have no way of knowing what the reaction will be, and once the cat is out of the bag, there is no way to put it back in. It is a tremendous risk and one that could possibly tear a family apart. As you have implied, if you try to explain it as a gender issue, their mind immediately goes to what has been in the news lately over the Bruce Jenner case. If you emphasise the CD aspect, they think of kinky and possibly perverse motives. If you just want to express your femininity, is it necessary to dress up with kinky items like breast forms? I have too much to lose by disclosing without knowing much more about everyone's beliefs and feelings.

My own experiences have taught me that people can be very accepting and understanding of others, regardless of such things as sexuality, identity, race etc. and yet feel a level of discomfort when those issues are close to home. Some examples: My wife and I, before retirement, operated a professional practice and had a large number of clients from the LGB community. These folks were like close friends, and the LGB factor was totally a non issue. However, when watching a movie or TV show involving gays, we both sense a feeling of discomfort if there are kissing scenes, and will fast forward through them. Similarly, my wife while quite accepting of my crossdressing, has expressed discomfort at knowing that CD's were using the female facilities when we attended CD events and were out in the general public. Many people can accept their spouse or a friend being CD or TG, but have no desire to actually see them so dressed as it would be somewhat repulsive to them.

Not knowing the possible reactions, I am not willing to risk the possible damage to my relationship with my family. It is human nature to want to be loved and respected, especially when you have grandchildren who admire you. Sometimes the simplest thing can drive wedges between people.

Thanks for your insightful contributions to this thread from the "other" perspective.

Veronica

[ReineD]

ReineD- Your link showing the recent female graduates of ranger school is in a way showing a distinction of gender and femininity/masculinity. Yes, we have visual cues as to their physique, facial structure, voice perhaps.... that they are female, but are they feminine? Is what they are doing, becoming elite fighting soldiers considered in any way feminine?

You need to recognize that you have your own particular view of what is feminine. As does everyone else. I don't know if your view is limited to wearing dresses, makeup, hose, heels, and acting girly. Or, maybe it is a cross between that and the styles of the women in the video. The point is, what you define as "feminine" are really just styles. And you will observe there are many different styles that women adopt, even the style adopted by the Rangers. AND ... each woman has a variety of sub-styles, for example what she wears to work, on a date, doing yard work, etc. But, these women are all feminine by virtue of being women. Granted, there are some women whose bodies are closer to men's (squarely built, no waist, thick necks) and/or who have deeper voices. I agree that these women are less feminine than the average. But again, this is physical. The other side of the coin ... there are women who have the ideal 36-24-36 figure with the curves in all the right places plus they have the faces of angels. They might be considered more feminine than the average and again, this is physical.

A woman's style of dress and adornment is not a factor of femininity, it is merely a style that she can put on or take off. Femininity is something that does not change based on what a woman chooses to wear at any given moment.



I am glad they are breaking a gender boundary.

I know you don't mean it this way, but this is a sexist statement. It tells me that you think being a Ranger is a man's job. No, these women are not breaking any gender boundary. In our day and age, it is perfectly acceptable for women to reach their full mental and/or physical potential. Why shouldn't women be allowed to to reach their full potentials like men have throughout time? Are female athletes not feminine because they play sports? To tell you the truth, if I were younger and in great shape, I'd love to do get through the Ranger course just to know that I could do it! And on Friday nights I'd take off my fatigues and dress for a date (which I'm sure these Rangers do as well). Also, undoubtedly the Rangers will grow out their hair after training, eventually marry, have children, and do everything else other moms do until such time as they return to active duty (https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/striking-photo-of-breastfeeding-soldiers-stirs-129085681957.html).

The world is changing, Gendermutt.




As for emotions and how I think, my wife has said to me on many occasions that I "think" like a girl at times, or I will rationalize, empathize, obsess on certain things... like a girl, or woman.

Ouch! So girls rationalize and obsess on certain things and men don't? :p I'm analytical. Does this make me think like a man and if so does it mean that women cannot be analytical?

You and your wife may have similar definitions and that's fine. But please believe me when I say that both men and women share the same character traits. Both men and women can be detail-minded or they can easily see the big picture, both can be aggressive or passive for example.

[Saikotsu]

As for emotions and how I think, my wife has said to me on many occasions that I "think" like a girl at times, or I will rationalize, empathize, obsess on certain things... like a girl, or woman. It doesn't make me one, I do not identify as one, but I believe that those ways in which my internal wiring leads me to cross gender behavior and thought patterns deem me to be feminine. Others have said it to me, described me as such at times. It is subjective granted, but, IMO anatomy itself does not make femininity or masculinity, it just makes for male and female.
Reine, when people say, "you throw like a girl" or "you talk like a girl", what they're really saying is "you throw in a manner that conforms with a stereotype of how girls throw," or "you fit a stereotype of how girls talk." When Gendermutts wife says that Gendermutt "thinks like a girl," she's saying that she feels that Gendermutt is thinking in a way that is stereotypically feminine.

What I think they were trying to say, and by all means I hope they correct me if I'm wrong, is that your behavior (universal you) can lead others to label you as masculine or feminine.

They are not saying that women rationalize and obsess over stuff and men don't. They're saying that society has a stereotype that women do and men don't. Because of that stereotype, they are viewed as more feminine because they matche the stereotype, as accurate or inaccurate as it may be when applied to individual men and women.

Likewise, people feel I'm more feminine. Through my mannerisms and behaviors, people liken me to being more feminine than most guys. They reach this conclusion because I match some preconceived notions in their head of what proper male/female oriented behavior is. Even though the behaviors I engage in certainly don't apply to all women or all men, the unique mixture of personal and societal cues they subscribe to result in a "feminine" label.

[ReineD]

Reine, when people say, "you throw like a girl" or "you talk like a girl", what they're really saying is "you throw in a manner that conforms with a stereotype of how girls throw," or "you fit a stereotype of how girls talk." When Gendermutts wife says that Gendermutt "thinks like a girl," she's saying that she feels that Gendermutt is thinking in a way that is stereotypically feminine.

These are actually good examples of what I'm trying to say. Why does a girl throw the way she throws? See the explanation here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/throw-like-a-girl-with-some-practice-you-can-do-better/2012/09/10/9ffc8bc8-dc09-11e1-9974-5c975ae4810f_story.html). Basically, it's a physical difference. It's a question of body rotation. A good throw requires a separate turning of shoulders and hips. Women tend to rotate their hips and shoulders together. They think the causes are physical. If a CDer is physically similar to a woman, then he might well throw like a girl. Or, it could be that he didn't have as much practice throwing as a child as his male peers.

As to talking like a girl, I'm not sure what you mean. The things a person says, the expressions used, or the method of communicating the message? Women and men are equally capable of discussing the same things (politics, current events, describing their day, expressing emotion, etc). The expressions used, like "OMG, this is sooo cute" are socialized and even then not all women talk like that. And, some men talk like that, except there are words that some men, I suspect, are socialized to not use, like "cute". They might say, "OMG, this is sooo awesome". But if a man wants to be feminine, he'll transcend the male socialization. Examples are what some consider are gay mannerisms in speech, like the stereotypical gay man Jack in the show 'Will and Grace'. Can gay men who use the mannerisms not use them when they want to? Can women who talk like Valley Girls not talk like that when they want to? As to the way that men and women communicate (men tend to dominate and quip more than women, who tend to cooperate in more subdued voices), you can google it. There is much written on the subject. But it points to, again, the biological influenced by hormones combined with the fact that men and women are treated unequally while growing up.

http://www.academia.edu/8391364/Do_Men_and_Women_Speak_Differently

So if a man veers from the male median in terms of being physically more like a girl, then yes, he will be more feminine than other men, although there are also men who do have or adopt feminine mannerisms (some gay men) but who have no desire to present as women. And vice versa. As mentioned in my prior post, some women are more masculine in physical appearance than other women. But, both these men and these women still fall within the normal ranges within their respective sexes. It would be interesting to see if CDers are significantly genetically different than their male peers, enough to say they are indeed more like women to the point where they want to look like women. But I don't think there is any biological basis for this.

[Saikotsu]

I'd like to clarify that I'm not trying to argue or debate, but rather to explain. I feel that we (as in the human race) are doing a disservice to others when we try to apply a "one size fits all" mentality. Obviously there are some women who are more masculine, and some men who are more feminine. Then there are people like me who are somewhere in between and change over time. Every person is unique.

We're not saying that one gender is one way and the other gender is a different way. Rather, we're saying that certain behaviors are generally defined as masculine or feminine by people, through a myriad of factors that vary by culture, upbringing, and personal opinion.

I recognize that there are biological differences between men and women. I don't think there are many people who can say there aren't. And as you've demonstrated, these differences can even affect our behaviors, like how we throw or how we talk.

Furthermore, I realize that we can, to a degree, alter our behavior to be more feminine or masculine. You gave the example of gay men who use feminine mannerisms. They can choose to use them or they can choose not to. Likewise, people can engage in gendered behavior. For example, in America, shopping is considered feminine and working on cars is masculine.

You've made a good case for why we shouldn't consider such behaviors to be masculine or feminine. One's sex has little to do with one's skill with cars. Yes there are slight biological differences, but they're not as pronounced as people think.

I'd argue that you can't even use biology to determine masculinity and femininity. Men are generally taller than women. And yet some men are shorter than most women and some women are taller than most men. These biological differences are further diminished when you compare people of varying ethnicities.

Essentially, any metric you use will meet some sort of counter metric that can refute it. This is why I believe gender is essentially an artificial construct that we make in order to fit in with society.

Many animals, humans included, naturally congregate together. We live in cities, towns, states, regions, and countries. We join social groups such as clubs, political parties, and organizations. We are naturally inclined toward this behavior.

Part of this behavior is codifying rules for men and women within a given group. More and more, these codes and rules are being challenged by society and by people like us. The more these rules change, the more the lines blur, and the more people contemplate what "masculinity" and "femininity" mean.

Sorry if I seem to be rambling.

[pamela7]

it's not only gender, it's also I feel more deeply and more importantly our archetypal tribe (animal or plant species, etc) which defines running styles for example, why the man-wolf is a natural in high heels - aaaaaooooohhhhh

[Tina_gm]

Time limitations. ... so for the moment I will just clarify that I mean the female rangers breaking a gender boundary as in the past, the army would not have allowed it regardless of a female soldier having the ambition or the capability to be a ranger. Thus breaking a gender boundary. I wish to respond more later.

[ReineD]

I mean the female rangers breaking a gender boundary as in the past, the army would not have allowed it regardless of a female soldier having the ambition or the capability to be a ranger.
Gendermutt, maybe you meant, "social barrier" then. Gender-bending (crossing the gender barriers) is not the same thing. These women are not wanting others to believe they are men. When people engage in activities that are socially accepted for their gender, they are not crossing gender barriers. And it is accepted there are women who want to serve in the armed forces. In fact, these women are admired.






We're not saying that one gender is one way and the other gender is a different way. Rather, we're saying that certain behaviors are generally defined as masculine or feminine by people, through a myriad of factors that vary by culture, upbringing, and personal opinion.

But are they really? People mentally define abstract concepts differently than they do when asked to describe what they see in their day-to-day lives. People might use extreme behaviors to conjure up abstract concepts, which breaks down in real life because the extremes are seldom seen. For example, a person might say that gay men are all effeminate (they might be thinking of Jack in 'Will and Grace'), but if you put them in a gay bar and ask them to tell you what percentage of gay men in that room are effeminate, they'll answer differently. People might conjure up an image of an animated, giggling or cooing woman (for example) when mentally defining feminine behavior, but put them in a room full of women of various ages, and ask if the majority of women they see are behaving that way, they'll rethink their definitions.



For example, in America, shopping is considered feminine and working on cars is masculine.

Using precise language is crucial if we want to define things. So is shopping really considered feminine? Who shops at Best Buy? At Barnes and Nobles? In men's department stores? And is working on cars masculine, or is this something that more men do than women. If a non-CDer gets a car serviced by female mechanic, will they say the mechanic is masculine? Not if that mechanic has an average female voice and body. If she doesn't (for example if she is stocky, no waist, no hips, etc), then she will be described as masculine compared to the average female. She will still be more feminine compared to males.



I'd argue that you can't even use biology to determine masculinity and femininity. Men are generally taller than women. And yet some men are shorter than most women and some women are taller than most men. These biological differences are further diminished when you compare people of varying ethnicities.

Individual biological gender cues (there are many) are weighted and then added together. A short male will still be viewed more masculine than a tall female because of all his other male gender cues compared to her, even if they are both wearing blue jeans.



Essentially, any metric you use will meet some sort of counter metric that can refute it. This is why I believe gender is essentially an artificial construct that we make in order to fit in with society.

I agree that we cannot use chromosomes to define gender among both the intersex and the people in the T community (CDs/TGs/TSs) and for this small percentage of the population, I agree that a socially defined gender is not useful. But, we cannot say this for the vast majority of people whose sense of gender ID does mesh firmly with their birth sex. The people NOT in this community do solidly identify as men/male or women/female, even if some men know they are less macho than other men, and some women know they are less girly than other women. These people will not feel more or less feminine as their peers (in the sense of having gender issues) because they do acknowledge the vast range of traits and behaviors that are indeed considered within the normal range for each sex. Right? If you tell a guy he is feminine because he doesn't like sports, he'll likely be insulted. If you tell a female-mechanic that she is masculine, she will likely be insulted too.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Let me ask the broader question, is there any point to trying to use terms like masculinity or femininity if there are no concrete defining examples to support the notion? Reine seems to be making the case that, except for childbearing, there is no behavior or activity, or even way of thinking, that exclusive to one sex, so there is no way to define the terms outside of biology.

To answer my own question I say yes there is a point. Just because you can't draw a hard line around a concept does not render it useless or meaningless. The definition of feminine is "of or pertaining to females". You have to be guided by what is common or normal in terms of appearance, behavior, etc. In western culture wearing make-up outside of any form of public performance is an activity performed primarily by women. Therefore wearing make-up is feminine. Is that the only thing that makes a woman feminine? Absolutely not! Because women are so varied it would be unwise to base a a concept of femininity on even a small handful of characteristics. Still, each culture finds a way to distinguish males from females. Some cultures, through their languages, even assign the concept to inanimate objects through definite articles (el/la; someone brought that up in one of these threads recently, perhaps even this one).

What we have to be careful of, though, is to take the time to get to know people and value them for themselves and not fall back on labels or stereotypes. We are all unique and deserve to be recognized for our individuality. My life now is a blend of masculine and feminine. I like to think it gives me an advantage in my relationships with everyone because I can relate to anyone on some very fundamental levels. It is through my relationships with others I hope to enrich their lives and be enriched by theirs. That is what makes life worth living.

I've enjoyed this thread. The intellectual challenge of breaking down concepts most people just take for grated is very fulfilling, but there comes a danger of dissecting ideas so much they become unrecognizable and useless. It reminds me of a line from the first book of Ecclesiastes which says "Meaningless! Meaningless!...Everything is meaningless". If we keep pushing this one I'm worried we'll all walk away thinking "What's the point of it all?"

Bridget

[Tina_gm]

Just wanted to make a bit more of a thought out response, was very busy this weekend and just did not have the time to do so.

1st, if barrier is a better word for what the female Army Rangers are doing, that is fine. I was referring to the fact that prior they were simply not allowed to by the rules of the army. Thankfully that is not the case anymore.

I think hopefully we will have to come to understand that femininity and masculinity is a construct, and is not static. IMO, what makes them what they are, my own definition is that which is more typical of women becomes feminine and vise versa for men. If a guy lives his life in most of the typical ways in which other guys live, dresses, acts etc etc.... but has a couple of ways in which he does something more typical of women, that does not make him feminine, but that what he does which is more typical of women is feminine. When a guy (or girl) does many things, a majority of things in their life which are more aligned to the typical aspects of the opposite gender, then they become masculine or feminine as a description opposite of their birth gender... feminine male, masculine female.

I would think most CDers have a stronger than typical femininity about them, which is a REASON why they dress. Those who are totally aligned opposite of their birth gender are TS, in males they would be mostly feminine, to the point where they will go through transition to be aligned with their internal femininity.

[ReineD]

What we have to be careful of, though, is to take the time to get to know people and value them for themselves and not fall back on labels or stereotypes. We are all unique and deserve to be recognized for our individuality.

Fully agree! :)




I've enjoyed this thread. The intellectual challenge of breaking down concepts most people just take for grated is very fulfilling, but there comes a danger of dissecting ideas so much they become unrecognizable and useless. It reminds me of a line from the first book of Ecclesiastes which says "Meaningless! Meaningless!...Everything is meaningless". If we keep pushing this one I'm worried we'll all walk away thinking "What's the point of it all?"


I've enjoyed this thread too.

I'm not trained in biology or gender studies so it is difficult to harness my thoughts and communicate them as precisely as I would like to. I don't mean to say there are no differences between men and women except biology, just that the physical is the most obvious in our current culture of narrowing gender roles. Also, I think that what we see deeply influences our perceptions of what is.

A good example of this occurs when we read text. I think that most people will not be able to discern whether a writer is male or female just based on their written descriptions of events or how they express themselves in the course of a forum discussion. We might be able to tell their age bracket based on the use of certain expressions or the adoption of certain ideals or attitudes, we'll definitely know if they're educated or not, but their gender? Not so much.

Do I believe that gender is meaningless? No. Without it, we as a species would not have survived. I identify solidly as a woman (not gender neutral) and I am most definitely attracted to men, even if I rarely wear makeup. So how do I know this? Because I feel comfortable in my body and I feel akin to other human beings who were socialized like me based on their bodies that also happen to look like mine ... whether they wear makeup or not. And most of us are attracted to the bodies of people who are not like us and who were socialized differently than us because of it, even if they are male goths and they do wear makeup :). This has a great deal of meaning.

You mention makeup ... yes, this is a part of the female presentation, just like women's clothes, shoes and jewelry, that society has designated is appropriate for women to wear and in this sense, it is labeled "feminine", to varying degrees based on the amount of frou-frou and flounce I suppose. But, some women choose to not wear these things and they are no less feminine provided they have feminine bodies and looks. And if CDers wear these things, does it make them feminine? Not if they look like men ... they'll then look like men who are wearing feminine things. Some CDers who have more delicate facial features may wear these things and look feminine, but such CDers would have a less masculine look in guy mode than their peers anyway (think Justin Bieber).

People involved in gender studies point out that biological sex is not tied to gender ID. This is true, for the people who are not cis-gender. But, biological sex and gender ID are solidly meshed for the rest of us and this is what enables the bringing together of gender roles - it's OK if a boy likes to cook and wants to be a teacher or if a girl likes to play sports and wants to be a mechanic, because our gender is more deeply tied to our sex, which no amount of sociological change can erase, than to what we do or how we look within the range deemed usual for our respective sex.

And this is why MtF TSs seek body modifications that will erase all male gender cues (electrolysis, all the different FFS procedures, BAs, and in some cases, hip and butt padding and SRS). They don't change other things about themselves - Caytlin Jenner did not stop playing golf for example and TSs in this forum have said that their personalities and personal interests didn't change after transition.


... anyway, I'm going on and on again. I'll stop.