passing

[Juanita O]

I was reading a thread on here about us passing as women, in the thread there was a reference about us walking and mannerisms so I decided to go and do some research on my own on how women walk and there mannerisms. I went to Salt Lake City during the state fair, I was sitting watching the women there and guess what the women walked like the guys. After I left the state fair I went to one of the malls there in town well the same result the women were walking just like the guys. I also noticed that when women got out of cars they do it like the guys, on leg out than the other. I also noticed that when women talked to each other they did use there hands. I guess that if we want to walk like run way models(one foot in front of the other) that is ok, in conclusion to my research why are we are trying to walk like models, watch how our wife's, girlfriend, and other women how they walk and there mannerisms. Women come in all sizes and shapes just like the guys. in my opinion I think to pass a women we need to blend in more. :)

[IamWren]

My 'research' has come to a little different conclusion. Although, your average, run-of-the-mill, everyday genetic girl, I've noticed, doesn't walk like a run way model with each foot walking or crossing over an imaginary straight line, they do walk and step differently than men.

After reading a thread that stated most women walk with their knees quite close together I noticed that seems to be true. Not all, but many women walk with their knees close together.

The other thing stated in the thread was that GGs walk with their elbows very close to their waist. Turns out it's true.

I'm not sure practicing this for hours is ever going to get rid of my weird cave-man walk I have but there ya go... my research results for what their worth.

[Kate Simmons]

I've never had a problem with it really. I don't take any extra pains with attempting to move like a woman does but kind of do it naturally when in that mode of presentation. Dancing en femme has helped me immensely in this respect. :battingeyelashes::)

[Jaylyn]

You are probably correct in the just blending in to pass. My problem is in no way do I look like a female in my body shape, I feel like my size feet and broad shoulders will never pass, thus I stay hidden. I do enjoy dressing just as much though so this hasn't dampened the spirit. I know GG come in all sizes and shapes but maybe not true of my shape....

[Tracii G]

I try to walk in a more flowing motion with shorter steps, knees closer together,shoulders back and elbows in.
Never really try to do a runway walk because to me it looks like I'm trying too hard.

[Meghan4now]

Juanita,

Yes, deportment is subtle and has great variance. One thing you should notice is that when women are dressed different (heels, skirts, etc.) they do need to modify some of these characteristics. Walking in spiked heels takes practice. That's why girls at an eighth grade graduation or freshman dance are so akward. But with practice it looks natural, and unnoticeable. There are other subtleties, like hand positions and swing that do differ, but again this varies person to person.

I believe that confidence is more important than technique. Nervousness catches peoples attention and lead to deeper scrutiny.

You can add things over time to create a more gentle and graceful image. Sure some women walk like cowboys and swear like sailors, but they do not have to compensate for a beard shadow, big hands, and a neanderthal brow. Variables add up in each column, leading to a composite score we subconsciously evaluate in observing others. So adding more feminine deportment CAN improve ones ability to "pass" or fly under the radar by not triggering a need to figure out what is amiss vs. what is a Miss.

[Tracii G]

Mannerisms are a key factor too so I studied women at malls and other venues.
I found women tend to carry things like shopping bags or purses slung over the elbow sometimes.
Talk with their hands and their palms face out and when they make a fist the thumb points straight out.
There are more minor traits to use that will enhance your presentation if you just make the effort and do some research.

[Adron2009]

Someone posted this once before, it shows the difference in movements between men and women.

http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html

[ReineD]

I was sitting watching the women there and guess what the women walked like the guys. After I left the state fair I went to one of the malls there in town well the same result the women were walking just like the guys. I also noticed that when women got out of cars they do it like the guys, on leg out than the other. I guess that if we want to walk like run way models(one foot in front of the other) that is ok, in conclusion to my research why are we are trying to walk like models, ...

Hi Juanita, I'm so glad you were able to observe this. It will stop you from overly exaggerating your movements, which would make you stand out and be read more. If a runway model walked the same way on the street as on the runway, people would also scratch their heads.

It's not that women walk like men. Rather, both men and women generally have a neutral walk, although some males walk in a more pronounced "male" way and vice versa for some women. But, these people's walks are consistent with their body types (height, weight, width of shoulders vs hips, arm length, etc) and if they tried to alter their walks it would not look consistent with their body types and onlookers would sense this.

Have a look at this animation, with sliders you can manipulate to emphasize each gender. You can also rotate the view and alter the mood. Most people do walk in the middle neutral position, or maybe only very slightly on the left or right.

http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/webgl_walker/webgl_walker.php

[Sallee]

I would agree for the most part we walk the same. Women have shorter legs usually so smaller steps I don't think the walk will give you away although it might if your dragging your knuckles

[Katey888]

Interesting study Juanita... I suspect many of us have done this at some time (or still do ALL the time... ;)) and our results will also be biased by our location and culture, demographics and physiology... Young women definitely have a more 'hippy' style in general - and for me and, I think, many of us, we are subconsciously trying to emulate an idealised woman, probably younger, and tending more towards a runway model than an East German shotputter... :) Not that you necessarily have many of those in Utah...

Here, I think is most of the truth for us:


I believe that confidence is more important than technique. Nervousness catches peoples attention and lead to deeper scrutiny.

You can add things over time to create a more gentle and graceful image. Sure some women walk like cowboys and swear like sailors, but they do not have to compensate for a beard shadow, big hands, and a neanderthal brow. Variables add up in each column, leading to a composite score we subconsciously evaluate in observing others. So adding more feminine deportment CAN improve ones ability to "pass" or fly under the radar by not triggering a need to figure out what is amiss vs. what is a Miss.

As long as we're not over-exaggerating things, a little deportment does go a long way. :D

Katey x

[Jenniferathome]

Your movement when dressed is about problem number 926 on the "passing" problem list. Now, women do not walk like runway models but it is rare when I see a woman walking like a man. There are differences. Stride length, shoulder movement, arm movement, there is a lot there.

[Rachael Leigh]

Juanita I was just thinking the same thing the other day and wondered is there that much of a difference. So that's why I try and blend when I go out dressed I do try to walk slower and one foot in front of the other but it's hard to change the natural gate. So I've seen others say this just be yourself when out but with just a feminine flare

[Alice_2014_B]

I agree that a lot of gg's, as you've noticed in your observations, have many of the same mannerisms as men.
To me there is a moderate balance when it comes to passing.
Yes, blend in with the mannerisms such as keeping the elbows in more while not "over compensating".
:)

[heatherdress]

"You can observe a lot by watching". -Yogi Berra

Many good points have been already made. I don't care much about "passing" debates, but the topic of walking and mannerisms differences due to gender is intriguing. Physiological differences observable and measurable while walking are the subject of studies. Difference based upon gender can be measured. Pelvic motion and bodily center of mass displacement are uniquely different, by gender.

Pace, speed, physique, footwear, personal fitness, health, learned mannerisms - there are differences in walking styles that can be observed "by watching.

[Heidi Stevens]

I was out most of today having a wonderful all day Heidi experience and I didn't pay attention to my walk until the flats I had on started rubbing blisters on both little toes! Let's just say my stride was a bit different until I got my shoes off!
Actually, I find having women's shoes on and having hip padding has more effect on your gate than any thing you can force yourself to do. Odds on, your walk won't be the thing that gives you away. Unless you walk like John Wayne after a long trail ride!

[char GG]

I've been out with my SO's group many times and these are the things that I have observed: The people in the group tend to walk different from women, not so much with their gait but with their heads jutted forward. The other thing that they do is sit with their legs spread apart (most women that I know don't sit like that)! Women get out of a car one leg at a time with pants on - but with dresses, they usually swing their legs together and get out (otherwise "flashing" occurs). Also, be aware of how you eat - don't shovel food in with your head down to your plate like it's your last meal, take smaller bites if you have to and sit up straight.

In the long run, I don't think "passing" is that important. Not many people really pay attention to other strangers unless they are behaving weird - so don't call attention to yourselves by your behavior.

[Candice June Lee]

Many of the mannerisms are fluid like that. Walkkng and stuff. No matter what we do we still have some little things that set us apart. Our physical size is the best one. We cant change that. Yes we all walk simular. Though most men walk toes out, women walk toes straight or inwards. Along with the elbows in the same manner.
i attempt to make a conscious effort to point the toes in which means they are always striaght.

[Robin414]

I also noticed that when women got out of cars they do it like the guys, on leg out than the other.


I've heard it said and believe it true, women walk differently due to body mass distribution (or the mass of TnA) 😊 and runway models intentionally emphasize the walk despite many having no TnA at all! Guys are also more 'jerky', they move that way too 😉 while women are much more fluid or 'poetic' for lack of a better word!

As far as getting out of cars, I'm working on levitation, I elegantly float out with my arms spread out and my head held back...OK, maybe I roll out on my hands and knees like a 90 yr old man getting out of a Lamborghini but that would be a cool trick right?! 😅

[CynthiaD]

It doesn't hurt to practice being more ladylike, walking, talking, moving, and the like. But in my experience, the key to a successful outing is attitude. No matter how you walk, walk boldly. Don't be fidgety or hesitant. Act in a way that says "This is who I am. If you like it, great! If you don't, too bad." Act like you have a perfect right to be where you are, dressed as you are, and that expect to be treated with courtesy. You can't do this if you constantly worry about where you're putting you feet, how you're holding your arms, etc. etc. etc. My aim is to be dealt with politely, and have people adress me as "ma'am." I seldom have any problems in that regard, and on those rare occasions when things haven't gone well, it's because I got self conscious and nervous.

[ReineD]

The other thing that they do is sit with their legs spread apart (most women that I know don't sit like that)! Women get out of a car one leg at a time with pants on - but with dresses, they usually swing their legs together and get out (otherwise "flashing" occurs). Also, be aware of how you eat - don't shovel food in with your head down to your plate like it's your last meal, take smaller bites if you have to and sit up straight.

Sounds like a lesson in etiquette! :)

This one's important too, how to hold your fork:
http://thumb101.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/458665/458665,1308085715,3/stock-photo-proper-way-to-hold-a-fork-concept-79240969.jpg



In the long run, I don't think "passing" is that important. Not many people really pay attention to other strangers unless they are behaving weird - so don't call attention to yourselves by your behavior.

There's such a wide variety of body and personality types out there, that unless a CDer naturally walks like John Wayne, most people won't notice like Char mentioned, unless you do something to call attention to yourself.

Anyway, here's the cute scene from The Birdcage where Armand tries to teach Albert how to walk like a guy, with short clips of John Wayne walking thrown in for contrast (although at the 1:02 mark, JW did walk with a very cute wiggle :)).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPs1ggt6O_w

[sometimes_miss]

I know GG come in all sizes and shapes but maybe not true of my shape....
Oh, I'm sure if you looked long enough eventually you'd find one pretty close to your shape. Perhaps not as tall, though, women tend to be about six inches shorter than males. But I've seen some pretty stocky built women out there. Svimwear anyone? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFaIcx0WkOY


Odds on, your walk won't be the thing that gives you away.
But at a distance, it will be the first thing someone might notice which will make them take a closer look as you get closer. Men typically roll their shoulders from side to side a little in a way that women don't.

[Kevyn53]

Gallagher, the comedian, used to do a bit about the difference between cowboys and women in heels. He'd put on a pair of cowboy boots and walk with his elbows out and it looked like a cowboy. Elbows in and it was feminine. Out, in, out, in, cowboy, woman. it was weird, but accurate.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I notice feet a lot. Men walk more like The Penguin, toes turned outward. Women's feet tend to stay parallel- far more elegant.

[Cheryl_Layton]

This is what I like about the forum, when we can share tips and observations to help us achieve a modicum of femininity whilst dressed. I wasn’t aware of the ‘elbows in’ and will definitely try it next time.

I’ve observed women from behind and notice that due to the width of their hips and the amount of, er, let’s say ‘padding’ around their bottoms and hips (of which I’m more than a little envious of, btw) they naturally have an amount of sway that males don’t have naturally. Poetry In Motion comes to mind here.

I think Cynthia’s point about confidence is one of the best. If you’re nervous you are subconsciously giving the message that something is amiss and inviting closer scrutiny. If you’re confident then the onus is on the observer to make the judgement. Hopefully, because they won’t want to cause a commotion if they make a wrong call, they will err on the side of caution and treat us like the ladies we wish to be.

[Krisi]

My observation is that most women walk like women. That is, they walk differently than most men. I dated a female for a year or so who walked a bit like a man, enough that I noticed, but I know from close inspection that she was a female.

[Jenniferathome]

... Also, be aware of how you eat - don't shovel food in with your head down to your plate like it's your last meal, take smaller bites if you have to ....

Oh Char, this is so true. For some reason when I'm in guy mode, I try to fit all that I can in my mouth. I love eating! But, I am aware of that so in girl mode, I always order softer foods like fish or pasta and I take small portions. Great advice!

[MonctonGirl]

My question for OP is: "Could you tell from a distance who was male/female" by their walk?

If so, then the women were not walking like men. Enjoy this partial guide - PM me for the rest in pdf.

HOW-TO-Walk-Like-a-Woman
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?185444-HOW-TO-Walk-Like-a-Woman-In-Heels&highlight=

[Sarasometimes]

I think that most women walk like women, not runway models. Elbows in, arms out, wrists more fluid, shoulders back, head up and knees/feet closer together. Their pace is slower. I once heard men possess a space and women pass through it, which I think is accurate. Women also include clothing, accessory and hair adjustments as they move about.
Along with the walk is also how you stand and men almost always have a wide solid symmetrical stance (think boxer) and women have an asymmetrical, narrower stance. MHO
Next time observe the butts of men and women as they walk and you will see a difference because pelvic dimensions are different.

[Tina_gm]

I am and always have been an intense people watcher. Even when I was a kid, I was sometimes scolded for staring at other people. It was not something I was really trying to do, but I just have a strong habit of observation. I have learned to try to control it as I have gotten older... and older and older lol.

There are definitely small differences of how most women will be and have mannerisms that are different than most men. Some of this I believe is taught, either by people, parents whomever who will actually teach us how to be, or the observed and then picked up ways. Young girls and young boys will observe others, and especially adults in general and parents of course and emulate their movements.

If you spend some time in rural areas, watch how men and women are as opposed to men in urban areas. You will find some differences there too, again, all subtle. If I could surmise one basic difference of mannerisms between men and women, is that women tend to be more closed and narrow below the waist while more open above it, and vice versa for men. examples are that women stand with their legs closer together, feet usually pointed parallel. knees have a tendency to point inward. legs crossed tighter, over the knee, or knees together. This probably comes from centuries of wearing dresses I think, and is now considered to be un lady like to sit with their legs spread apart. above the waist, just the opposite. pams are usually open, out, fingers tend to be straighter. hands and arms are out much wider when talking or gesturing in general.

For men, just basically reverse it all. wider stance, legs apart, feet tend to be pointed out more. Upper body, arms folded more, elbows wider, but arms otherwise tucked in more, palms are typically not shown as much, fingers tend to be closed more.

These are generalizations, not concrete. both genders will exhibit all the mannersims I mentioned, I am just saying that there is MORE of it with MOST of each gender of the examples I gave.

[sometimes_miss]

Like Heather wrote, you can observe a lot by just watching. And that's the key. Watch real women. Duplicate what you see over and over again.
Walking, and yes, I've posted the bio walker link many times over the years but it only shows how you should basically move. But youtube has provided much better for so long. I cringe every time I see someone write 'walk and put the toe down first', or 'put the whole foot down at the same time'. NO. NO. NO. Spend five minutes in any commuter area in the morning and watch women walk, it should be pretty obvious. But for those who don't want to look like foot fetishists staring at feet in a big train terminal, I tracked down some simple tutorials which should make it easy even for those who mistakenly studied the encyclopedia moronica's 'walking in high heels' section. Here, watch it's simple:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYNaAOx9WHU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfN1Ks_4dig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NsqfS1wU7M

Those should help solve the walking issue. Well fitting shoes, not just shoes that look nice, are the first key. Second is PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. There's simply no substitute.

The rest? Watch some old movies, especially those which have hoity toity snob characters in them, watch the women at tea parties, and see how they behave. He!!, play it on a big screen tv and get up close and mimic the movements. You'll have it down in no time. Get into being the character you see on the screen, as if you were going to act that part in your own movie. Be the girl.