Why veracity matters

[Badtranny]

Apparently the veracity of members is very important.

It's confounding to me that so many believe that the veracity of members is NOT important.

I guess I just need to know something once and for all; Is the TS forum supposed to be a support forum for people that are TRANSITIONING or not?

Why is it sooooooo difficult to make a distinction between people that are doing the hard stuff and those who are not? There are no guitar forums where people who don't play guitar are allowed to pontificate on playing guitar. There are no motocross forums where people who have never raced are allowed to talk about what they would do in a race. Try it sometime.

I will not support the closeted in their effort to pretend they are not closeted. The very essence of transition is about NOT being closeted. Yes I understand that we all have our own timelines, but a 'timeline' suggests a measure of progress does it not?

Real? A picture of trans women out and about says nothing about transition. I know several people who may or may not be trans who go out 'dressed' all the time. Is that what this TS forum is about? Going out dressed? Outings? You wanna be out? Then be OUT.

Why are people who are on record as not being out at work, not changing their name, not putting themselves at risk, allowed to come here and say things like "GD never goes away"? does it matter to anyone (except me) that there are trans women here who have put everything on the line just to be free? Does that mean anything to anyone? Are people who don't want to come out at work because it's scary as hell really in the same boat?

I know why we are marginalized and discounted in real life, but why on this forum? Shouldn't this forum at least celebrate the people who would risk everything to be free? Does coming out mean anything in this 'community'?

[Eryn]

...Is the TS forum supposed to be a support forum for people that are TRANSITIONING or not?

"Transitioning" means "in the process of transition." Everyone here is at their own point of the process. Some are plodding along like the tortoise, others are sprinting like the hare. We have different knowledge bases and points of view, and most of us are cooperating to help each other achieve our goals whether they will occur in the next week or next decade. The validity of what is said by any of us is up to the reader.

[becky77]

As much as I agree with you, this is the TS forum not the Transitioning forum.
Some TS will never transition but they still need somewhere to discuss their feelings.

I have no issue with it or where someone is at, we all have our stories.

The only way you would solve it is to have a 'Transitioning/Transitioned only' sub-forum, I'm not sure that would work either.
My own preference would be for the TS section to not be linked to the new posts, at least that way people are visiting on purpose.

We have safe haven but it's not used enough, if you only want input from TS then post there?

Back to the OP, people on here seek Veracity because everyone is treated with suspicion.
How do you expect someone to prove themselves?
Meeting someone proves nothing, I met several Trans people that have not been full-time, just cause they meet up as a woman doesn't mean they are not still living most of their life as a man.


Fraudsters are horrible and insidious but they win if we start to suspect everyone.

[Kate T]

We have had a number of threads lately over authenticity, veracity, what should be posted here blah blah blah. Well, Melissa, you say what you think and I respect you for that, but it is coming straight back at you this time I'm sorry.

We have Safe Haven. You want response from post or in transition TS only post it in there if you ask me. It's not used that much, that is OUR fault, not the people "who aren't doing the hard stuff".

For me, the TS forum provides an access point for those who have a genuine wish to understand TS (noting also that I really don't like the term TS despite now being full time). Maybe they are questioning whether they are TS, maybe they are partners wanting to understand their transitioning SO, maybe they are CD, TG, Gender fluid, or whatever other annoying label we want to come up with but most importantly they want to understand. I will not turn them away and tell them "you just won't ever understand because your not TS". Yeah, sure, occasionally we get and imposter or a misdirected CD lost in the pink fog who thinks they want to play with the "cool" girls and guys, but for the most part they quickly drop off and rarely have an enormous amount to contribute. The really crass or dumb ones are weeded out by Tamara, Nigella and Rhianna pretty quickly as well. And sometimes, maybe, yes they need to see the TS forum to work out "crap, that just is not me!".

If you don't like someone or think they are just having a bit of a fantasy either ignore them or just explain succinctly but nicely exactly why their post is not appropriate. IT isn't hard to be polite and is more likely to win us friends and support than getting hoity toity about whether they "should" be posting here.

[GabbiSophia]

Question for you Misty to help me understand the veracity of your comments and the stance that you always have.

How long did it take for you to come out at work once you moved forward on your timeline? Did all the time prior to that moment make you any less of a TS than after that moment? Did the things you did up to that point group into the category of "hard stuff" or did that only happen after you came out at work?

Seems that it is always a question that comes up to prove that what one has through is tougher than another. Why not just accept that it is all hard and not all people can understand what another has gone through because the process is so individualized?

I almost see a sadness in the way it is received for transitioning. Hell the comment "do not transition unless you have to" inflects that it transitioning is not something to celebrate.

Of course you will discount me because I am frozen with fear and do not want to face the TS syndrome. The steps I am taking do not mean anything to anyone ..... except me.

[PretzelGirl]

I understand your concerns Misty. There is one thing that will be true about this entire site and that is that people are unverifiable. The extreme will give themselves away but others plod along.

So sticking with the assumption that people are who they say they are... I have always read this subforum along with Body Issues. Maybe early on I would have replied at time or two, but I mostly read. Somewhere when I got into the more questioning area, I starting posting and replying. I can look back at my "New Threads Started" and see posts my here and the one saying "The Door is Open and I Am Stepping Through" is not the first one. I agree that we should all be able to post TS topics here. It is great that everyone can self identify, but you do get back to the problem that if someone is misrepresenting themselves even a little, you may not be able to know. We just have to be able to keep an open eye and consider all input appropriately. Safe Haven, to me, is the area where you can post and have another level of privacy. Only MTF Transsexuals are allowed there and that choice is by moderator standards. Of course a fraud can get in there too. It is impossible to have perfect verification.

Then there becomes a problem of who is transsexual and who is another identity. I'll admit that my work in the community makes me more inclusive. I will take anyone at their word because that is what I advocate for is self-identification. Others may want to see something more tangible. The problem becomes, how much information about each of us do we need to post? I look at Sophia, Michelle, Eryn and I am not one to try and take their identity away. They have all been, at least what seems, upfront to us. I certainly believe all is at it seems as I don't see anyone putting themselves on the firing line like they have with their unique situations.

I understand your trepidations. I am also guessing that when things are rocky, knowing your source can be important. What can we do? Not only are we on-line where nothing is verifiable (barring a list of who everyone has met), but gender identity is an internal sense of self. The external is gender expression. Transsexuality is linked to the identity, not the expression. So people's words are all we have to go with.

Ultimately, what has the forum done for many? I came here when I had a file cabinet of clothing and everyone's help across all the subforums educated me and carried me through my discovery and my transition. That is what is important to me. Have we made lives better? Have we maybe saved lives? The imposters become less relevant in this context to me and the ones that might self identify to get "in" become obvious. Then all the context can be taken as we wish.

[Sara Jessica]

Some TS will never transition but they still need somewhere to discuss their feelings.

I may be one of the few who agree but...(holding my tongue).

[sarahcsc]

It's confounding to me that so many believe that the veracity of members is NOT important.

Veracity is important but veracity exists on a spectrum. How truthful must one be before one is considered 'honest'?

And if a person deceives, how much deception is considered dishonest? Is telling a partial truth being dishonest?

What proof do you need before you decide to acknowledge others? Also, what proof do you have that you are who you are?

This is the internet for goodness sake. If people can lie to you in person, they can lie to you on the internet. Are you going to find a way to police this too?

It is unrealistic to expect people to be honest all the time under all circumstances.


There are no guitar forums where people who don't play guitar are allowed to pontificate on playing guitar.

Yes, but one guitar player can still ask for proof of skill before they are willing to acknowledge each other. Soon, forum users will have to upload a youtube video to demonstrate they do indeed own a guitar and also their guitar skills before being allowed to join certain sections of a guitar forum.


I will not support the closeted in their effort to pretend they are not closeted. The very essence of transition is about NOT being closeted. Yes I understand that we all have our own timelines, but a 'timeline' suggests a measure of progress does it not?

And can you tell me the what is the very essence of 'eating'? When is 'eating' considered eating?

The moment we fantasize about eating? The moment food gets plated? The moment food gets placed in the mouth? The moment the food is chewed? The moment the food gets swallowed? The moment it is broken down and absorbed? What is 'eating'?

I will accept that transition, to you, in essence, is not meant to be closeted. But the word 'transition' simply means 'movement', 'to shift' or to 'change from one position to another'. For some, it could mean a transition from being closeted to being open. For others, it could something much more subtle.


Why are people who are on record as not being out at work, not changing their name, not putting themselves at risk, allowed to come here and say things like "GD never goes away"? does it matter to anyone (except me) that there are trans women here who have put everything on the line just to be free? Does that mean anything to anyone? Are people who don't want to come out at work because it's scary as hell really in the same boat?

Is it possible that you are projecting your own feelings unto others?

As far as I'm concerned, you and every other members on this forum has equal rights to write and publish whatever you want, how are you being marginalized?

Nobody is trying to undermine your sacrifices but you undermine other people's sacrifices when they mention a struggle different to yours.

And yes, you made a lot of sacrifices, what else do you want? A cookie!? :yrtw:


Shouldn't this forum at least celebrate the people who would risk everything to be free?

Well said, but it sounds like you are more inclined to celebrate your own triumphs.

A professional mountain climber can celebrate his triumph over Mount Everest, but does this mean a paraplegic shouldn't celebrate just being able to stand?

It isn't what is being achieved that matters, but how it was achieved. To a professional climber, there is nothing harder than scaling Everest, but being able to stand is probably the hardest thing a paraplegic can do. Aren't both their feats equally heroic and worth celebrating?

You are passionate Misty. For that, I admire you.

But you have some thinking to do.

Love,
S

[Eringirl]

While I am somewhat hesitant to comment....sometimes my mouth gets the better of me and I blurt something out....as in this instant.

I owe so very much to this entire forum for providing sources of information, contributors providing questions and their viewpoints on numerous topics that I identified with (and still do), and a place to learn from the experience of others. I try to provide that same support and info to others when I can, cuz I know what it is like to be in that spot.....I am sure we all do at one time or another.

I do have some frustration with people (not only on this site, but in others areas of support etc) who comment or provide "insight" to a discussion topic for which they have no clue what they are talking about. If one has questions, ask away. If one is looking for guidance, support or information, ask away. If one is looking for a place to vent or a shoulder to cry on, pull up chair and I am more that willing/happy to listen/comfort etc. But....BUT, don't tell me how to climb to the peak of Everest if you have only been to base camp. Don't tell me what it is like or how to navigate down 6 decks in a battleship at 150 feet underwater if you have only been on reefs at 40 feet deep. That being said, I totally celebrate the experience of someone, who for the first time, did a 40 foot dive on a reef and listen eagerly to their excitement and sense of accomplishment for them. My experience in no way diminishes want a triumph it is for them to do that. We celebrate that milestone with them enthusiastically. Don't tell me how hard it is to come out at work if you haven't done it. One can be empathetic, absolutely, and offer comfort or support by acknowledging/listening to the struggle. But don't tell me what it is like.

I'll get off my stump now....:pinktornado:

[Badtranny]

...and so most of the people that have replied in rebuttal are also people that are on record as not transitioning or "partially transitioning". Some thinking to do indeed.

Also, after all of the embarrassing things that I've written here in service to those who may be ready to pull the pin, those who aren't doing so only see that I'm "celebrating my own triumphs"? What triumphs? Swallowing a lifetime of cowardice and coming out of the closet?

Only someone who has not endured the pain of a public transition could possibly think that I am trying to aggrandize myself in any way on this forum. I post completely unaltered pics, I write as honestly as I can.

You people can redefine what it means to transition here. It's of no consequence to me, and there will come a time when you will no longer be confronted by the likes of me, but remember this; You have to face yourself in the mirror everyday and you will have to reconcile the life you lead vs the life you want as you try to sleep every night. It's your closet. Your fear. Yours alone.

[Eryn]

There are some people who will maintain that the only people who have transitioned are those who have gone through full bottom surgery and that those who haven't had that experience lack credibility.

What is that saying about glass houses?

We're all in the same boat, Good ideas are good no matter who originates them.

[Sara Jessica]

I don't see this as an issue about whether one has transitioned or not...or even the degree of which. Instead, it is about why being truthful matters.

I find it to be of the utmost importance. I want to read about what is real, not some sort of fantasy fiction...especially if perpetuated by someone who makes it their work over the course of days/weeks/months or even years to create some sort of false narrative.

I want to learn about the trials and struggles of those who have taken the bold and necessary step into transition. I want to hear their good news even more. The overt downside tales break my heart.

Fact of the matter is that all of these things, these truths, feed into our collective psyche and our personal decision making and validation process. Spreading falsehoods muddies the waters at best and can be downright damaging. Those people should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.

We're all in the same boat Eryn, I'm just floating on a different pond. I'm not here to give advice on a process I know little of. Never have, never will. But when it comes to living on my pond, I'll share my story to anyone who cares to hear it.

[becky77]

We're all in the same boat, Good ideas are good no matter who originates them.

Some of us are outside the safety of the boat, swimming with sharks!

And Sarahcsc you could do with learning what TS transition is, what you said is meaningless. You have been on here a while now, I think of you as one of the clever ones, what hope is there when no one truly listens to what is being said sometimes. People are so quick to read insults into everything.

For the record, I used to want to prove my 'Realness' I guess I had something still to prove to myself and others. Since transition I couldn't give a toss, there is way too much difficulty in my life to worry what a few online posters think.

[GabbiSophia]

Misty who did you think you were going to get to respond to this? You are in effect diminishing what we have going on because we are at where we are.

I am sure I will not see those that have had SRS saying that you have no place to talk either. Though according to you they should. I have read tons of your stuff and know what you have been through but that doesn't change what I am going through or what others are going through.

[stefan37]

There are some people who will maintain that the only people who have transitioned are those who have gone through full bottom surgery and that those who haven't had that experience lack credibility.

What is that saying about glass houses?

We're all in the same boat, Good ideas are good no matter who originates them.


Misty has transitioned and she didn't have grs, and had no plans or desire to. There are many others here that have transitioned and haven't had bottom surgery for various reasons, health being one. They all have come out and line their lives as female 24/7. There are others that are transitioning without the benefit of hormones or surgeries. They are out and starting to live their lives 24/7.

You can't tell me that an individual that is " full-time except for.. " can comment on what's it's like in the work place and have any credibility.

There was a discussion on Estradiol patches. I inject and have no experience with patches. I would be unqualified to comment on the efficacy or benefit of patches.

The root issue as I see it is everybody makes up their own definition of whatever suits their particular situation.

I will end with living 24/7 as female is way different than living part-time. And the experiences are different.

All my comments and advice (if you want to call that) comes directly from my experiences. If I have no experience I refrain from commenting.

[LeaP]

The obvious first: Pending aditional clarity from the administrators and mods on precisely what this means, this forum is for discussion of "transsexual specific items and for Transsexuals to share their experiences" and it is open to the participation of all CD.COM members. There are also certain topics listed in the rules that are designated as not appropriate to the forum. These two statements of purpose and content are also brought together in Nigella's TS Forum sticky. That's it. Transitioning, never mind support itself, is not mentioned. Transsexual is not defined. As best as I can tell (and I didn't search comprehensively), the support purpose aspect is either assumed or accultured here. It has been mentioned many times by admins & mods, of course.

On the veracity point, I think experience matters. While someone without experience might offer good advice in a particular instance, their inexperience renders them unable to extend and adapt it. Coupled with the inexperience of the receiver (else why would they be asking), it makes such advice potentially dangerous. This is explicitly recognized in the case of HRT dosages, but the same principle applies to many other topics.

Regarding transitioners, the TS forum's purpose is completely up to the site owners. Nonethless, I would support Misty's implied position. The realities of transitioning have hit home. The differences in support needs among the various peoples posting here (how's that for avoiding problematic terms?) are also apparent - even limiting that to those who are, in fact, fully cross-sex identified. Critical assessment factors for me favoring the transitioner support focus include the HIGHLY specialized nature of the topics, their risk and impact, the limited availability of such support, and that the numbers of transitioners, never mind the cross-sexed, are vanishly few. I add to the last point that topical expertise is concentrated in those few - often even on medical and scholarly topics - and that the noise factor from others in a less-restricted forum is hugely disproportionate.

I should mention that I arrived LONG ago at the viewpoint that "transsexual" is not an identity or even a noun, though I still (unfortunately) feel compelled to use it that way in shorthand form. As far as I'm concerned, the term is best used as an adjective applied to a cross-sex identified person who has transitioned or is in the process of doing so. The reason isn't even semantic purity, as much as that is dear to my little heart. It is because that usage so neatly encapsulates the essence of transition, the concerns of which are irrelevant to others in the most personal sense.

Still, if the forum were transitioner focused ...

Where would that leave the truly cross-sex identified who are not transitioning and can or will not? I don't know.

Where would that leave the questioning? I would say their best interest would be in a separate forum where the responders would also be limited to transitioners ... along the lines of the "Ask a Transsexual" thread.

Where would that leave the gender-variant and others? Strictly, solely from the standpoint of transitioner concerns, I don't care. In answer to the oft-protested counter that alternative views from such on other solutions (e.g., middle path) are needed, I would say two things: transitioners already advise people to investigate solutions other than transition, and intermingling these populations and their views adds to confusion and not support. Someone investigating non-transition options deserves an arena as free from the distractions and dangers of the non-experienced as do transitioners. Transitioners typically have FAILED at non-transition solutions.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Veracity +
Specific Experience
=Credibility and Gravitas

whether you are ts or not, or whether you transition or not, its an open forum...

I bet there are MANY more transsexuals of age (lets say 40+ ish) that have not transitioned... and i bet there are many people struggling with gender identity that are not transsexual..
and of course the liar trolls, who may or may not be ts

i don't think its right to make anyone struggling with gender identity unwelcome here...however i know i've had run-ins here, i also don't think its right to play pollyanna and sugar coat what real transsexuals going through real transition live through.

and i think its wrong to sugar coat what NOT transitioning does to people too...and this includes families... the unrelenting nature of GD, the destructive nature of transition, the terrible isolation of years and years of ever increasing GD and and the "side effects" of living with GD are stark realities and so many of us avoided or repressed these realities to the point of hitting rock bottom... that's real... and its tiresome to get people that don't know this reality because they are not transsexual, or just havent hit rock bottom yet to tell me i'm too negative..
and then later i hear that some of these people were FRAUDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry but i have feelings too... i was in some big "kerfuffles..hehe" and on the other side are people that are known frauds.. i post here because i care and want to help...
i am incredibly open and honest...i have a depth of knowledge and experience...practical stuff...
and from my perspective i hope people listen to the honest people with experience.. if they want meaningful feedback, its the only way..

its hugely discouraging to think of the time wasted and if you really get analytical its the people that DONT KNOW anything that get hurt the worst...and frankly i don't think the mods really have much to do with it because they don't have any information that we dont... they have no tools to vouch for people..

=======================================

i recall when my kids were born talking to parents and non parents ...sometimes i'd hear non parents tell me what they thought i should do with my kids..

apart from wanting to rip their face off for daring to talk about MY kids, i understood that they literally knew nothing that could help me....

and if they did say something that helped me it was just an accident or something they heard from a real parent... that's what i see hear when "reasonable advice" comes from people that are lying about where they are...

i think its the same thing here.... and just like when i was a parent i got to pick and choose what felt right to me and in the end no matter what we say and no matter what the rules, in a forum where its really just words people are just going to have DO THE WORK themselves and in doing so they will be able to protect themselves..

i think based on years of being here the people that have been caught out as pure liars didnt do that much damage...they just wasted a lot of time... if you were caught up in those situations, i hope you didn't invest too much in what they said and i hope you can find the real person that was the real source of any advice that helped you or encouraged you...

in the end if you want to be "encouraged" there are lots of other places where you can get generic positivity that works in any situation..

[Starling]

...i think based on years of being here the people that have been caught out as pure liars didnt do that much damage...they just wasted a lot of time... if you were caught up in those situations, i hope you didn't invest too much in what they said...

One small quibble here. I don't believe a liar's post ever did me damage, but having found that someone I shared a lot of personal information with in PMs and outside the forum was a fake and a phony certainly did. I'll be much more careful from now on.

:) Lallie

[Eryn]

Misty has transitioned and she didn't have grs, and had no plans or desire to. There are many others here that have transitioned and haven't had bottom surgery for various reasons, health being one.

I understand this and I have respect for all, regardless of their degree of physical or behavioral transition. I wasn't thinking of Misty when I wrote my post. What I meant was that those who wish for a "litmus test" to validate participation here may well find themselves on the outside looking in of the test adopted isn't the one they had in mind

How useful would a guitar forum be if it was limited to accomplished guitarists only? Eric Clapton might give some tips to Keith Richards and Mark Knopfler but would they be useful to someone in the middle of learning the art? I've found that the best teachers are those who are in the process of learning. They are not only fresh on what they have learned, they also remember the process by which they learned.

I'm not an advocate of the "jump off the cliff" school of transition. I could have been "loud and proud," announcing my transition to the world and to hell with everyone else, but that would have been unfair to my loved ones who are supporting me so much. I'm trying to find a path that minimizes problems. I don't want to leave scorched earth and broken lives behind me, nor do I want to destroy my own life of there is an alternative.

Someday, transition will be nothing extraordinary. It will be an everyday event on a par with getting married. That will be a happy day.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm not an advocate of the "jump off the cliff" school of transition. I could have been "loud and proud," announcing my transition to the world and to hell with everyone else, but that would have been unfair to my loved ones who are supporting me so much. I'm trying to find a path that minimizes problems. I don't want to leave scorched earth and broken lives behind me, nor do I want to destroy my own life of there is an alternative.



you fundamentally misunderstand why transitioners transition....

your experience is valid and real...but its irrelevant to "advocate" for anything other than living an authentic life for each person..

i guarantee that if you felt what i felt...you wouldn't be going on about being unfair to your loved ones... that's just the way it is...

disparaging words like "announcing my transition to the world and to hell with everyone else" provide insight to your attitude..
Calling something the "jump off the cliff school of transition" is another one...

I don't call what you are doing the
I decided to live a meaningless and empty life in the wrong gender because i'm weak and afraid school of non transition
or the I decided to not transition because actually I'm probably not transsexual school of non transition

transitioners do not advocate for transition...they explain what it is and what it means to people... your views of what it means take second place ..

[GabbiSophia]

Hmm yep that is my school.. Never have heard it put that bluntly but hell call it what it is..

Hmm an outcast of the outcasts ... Never thought I would end up there..

[LeaP]

Kaitlyn, I know that you are advocating for an open forum. Yet I have to go no further than your response to see, yet again, the fundamental problem with the openness of the forum playing out as if you address Eryn's response! I'm not suggesting that the solution is obvious. The problem certainly is, though!

Eryn, I do expect transition will become easier in the future. The statement that it would become an everyday event or as common (in the acceptance sense) as marriage is quite a stretch. The condition is too rare and it twists peoples heads around a bit too fast and hard to ever reach that point.

[GabbiSophia]

Lea the tongue and cheek in your response to Kaitlyn falls short for me. I think her harsh way of saying it might be better than sugar coating it all the time. This crap is real and it sucks and at times I think I is needed. The one thing is though is that she didn't invalidate anyone while saying it and that is the difference .

And I for one am tired of high and mighty transexuals invalidating what I am going through because I am walking a different path.

This is why there is no community in this..to many high and mighty

[PaulaQ]

Why are people who are on record as not being out at work, not changing their name, not putting themselves at risk, allowed to come here and say things like "GD never goes away"? does it matter to anyone (except me) that there are trans women here who have put everything on the line just to be free? Does that mean anything to anyone? Are people who don't want to come out at work because it's scary as hell really in the same boat?


Why do we allow cisgender people on here at all then? Such people have no firsthand experience with the things we go through.

I think there are really two issues at play here, that we are conflating:

1. People who aren't exactly who or what they say they are.

2. People who comment on stuff they haven't gone through yet, or who are taking a very different path than the typical one taken here.

For #1, there are two reasons I can think of for someone to misstate who they are:
A. They are stealth, but need the fellowship a group like this offers, something they DARE NOT do in real life, or that isn't available where they live. Someone like that would surely use fake name, fake picture, and lie their ass off about everything they do, and their location to keep themselves safer. I sure as hell would!
B. They really are fake. They may be trolls, chasers, or simply some *really sad* person who wants to be on the top of the heap of a trans forum by pretending to be a stealth, long transitioned trans woman. I can't imagine how this would seem worthwhile to anyone, but there are some weird people out there.

Obviously people who are category 1-B are suspicious, and should be gone. The thing is, how do you differentiate between 1-A and 1-B?

For #2 - There are plenty of white, privileged, extremely well off, conservative, highly-opinionated trans women who despite having massive "been there, done that" credibility, are still so entrenched in all the privilege they managed to keep, sometimes toxic, and sometimes so screwed up that I would tend to give more credence to the advice of the newbiest newb on the forum, honestly offered, than their advice.

Examples I've heard (not here): "I don't understand trans women who would be with other women! What kind of a woman does that?" (said to a trans lesbian), "We need to get some makeup on you, honey!" (Said to a femme gender queer person), "Of course you'll be wanting to get GRS!" (said to everyone - many of whom will never be able to afford GRS, or who simply really don't need it), "When you talk to your employment recruiter about being trans, you need to stress... " (Who the frack cares what you need to stress, this was said to a room full of women NONE OF WHOM will probably ever be in a position to use a recruiter...)

I've seen people who transitioned post retirement - sidestepping a whole landslide of issues most of us deal with. Hey, I work remotely, and while I did transition on the job and have issues, I didn't have the "in your face" issues most of us deal with. Are either of those perspectives invalid? No, as long as the person giving them knows how to explain their experience as they lived it, and shut their pie-hole when they are criticizing someone for having a hard time with a problem at work THEY DIDN'T GO THROUGH THEMSELVES.

The problem with this type of credibility is that all of our experiences are only limited to ourselves, and to some extent indirectly, to other trans people we might know personally. Knowing a LOT of trans people might help one have more perspective - unless they were more or less all of a type. Sometimes the answers that are right for us are just wrong for someone else.

There are a number of implicit assumptions on this forum that many of us seem to have:
1. We're highly binary. (Not all trans people are.)
2. We're strongly identified as female. (Again, not all trans people are.)
3. We have generally high degrees of GD - many of us would be pushing up daisies had we not transitioned.
4. We need some type of medical transition to align our bodies with our minds and mitigate GD.
5. We need to socially transition - but there is a gender role (woman), that fits us well.

There are plenty of trans people who need support, but who don't fit these assumptions. I fit them pretty well. Lots of us here do. But there are plenty of trans people who don't fit them, or who aren't ready yet to deal with various aspects of transition.

Also, this is not a fast process. I went through it relatively quickly I think, going from "coming out to myself" to "post-op" in about 2.5 years, with a bit over 2 years of medical and social transition. I got through what I got through relatively quickly because I'm FORTUNATE. (And if I had been less fortunate, I'd almost certainly be dead.) Some people are more constrained by their situation or resources. Some people simply don't seem to need to do as much, or just need more time. Some people are simply really afraid, and it takes them longer to go through everything. People who are in some intermediate state of transition still need support, and can still have valid opinions, and definitely have valid experiences to share.

I feel like the best type of veracity for this particular forum is that of people who can honestly relate their own experiences, without assuming they are anything special or of any particular significance to anyone other than themselves. People who are really for real, as much as possible (we're all human), with how they feel and who note things like "well, this part was easy for me, but I'm really privileged because of _____", or "I had a hard time with this - but my situation was ______".

So I guess if we want to define this to be the "highly binary identity aligned, highly gender conforming, male to female, medical, legal, and social transition forum", (this is pretty much the effective definition of "transsexual", imo), then I guess only giving credence to people who fit that model is OK. But I think it's a poor way to support trans people in general, and there plenty of people who need way more than what the CD forum provides, yet fall short of doing everything many of the others of us have done.

[becky77]

Who's invalidating you Gabbi and how?
What's with the High and mighty talk?

From my own personal experience once you transition things change so dynamically that it's like you move onto another level, that level shouldn't be viewed as better, just another level that leaves you with a change of perspective where you no longer relate to those that haven't crossed over.

It's like learning to swim or riding a bicycle or learning to drive a car, those that are in the learning stage are absorbed in it. Those that have gone beyond that stage are just getting on with it and lose connection with the learners.
We all remember what it was like struggling as learners but our feelings have moved on to other challenges.

[Eryn]

Yes, I was harsher than I should have been. My buttons were pushed and I didn't consider the motives of the pushers.

I've been living with this for 50+ years, during most of which I had no idea of what my issue truly was. That was a true hell. Understanding my issue was a relief, but is only half the challenge.

Throughout my life I have developed coping skills and learned how to conform with society's expectations. Having these skills is a bit like giving a transfusion to a bleeding man. It'll keep him alive, but it won't fix his problem. On the other hand, the transfusion will allow time now that the problem is identified, for it to be addressed in the best way rather than in a panic.

That's where I am. I can clearly see the goal and I am progressing toward it at a pace I find acceptable. The fact that I am honest about this is fodder for a critic or two, but it also resonates with people in similar situations.

I have two FTF friends who have followed quite similar paths to transition. They are happy, their careers and relationships are intact, and they are great mentors. Yes, it took longer for them, but the result was worth it.

[GabbiSophia]

Becky read the original post. But I have an unbox full of people. I do have a bunch that are beyond nice though too. I have also met a few in meetings that are high and mugthy

[Kate T]

...and so most of the people that have replied in rebuttal are also people that are on record as not transitioning or "partially transitioning". Some thinking to do indeed.

C'mon Melissa. Prior to this post Becky, myself, Sue and Erin all replied and all of us are full time as far as I am aware. That is hardly "most". Since this post Kaitlyn, Eryn, Leah and Paula have also all responded questioning your original concerns. There seems to be plenty of veracity there.

Gabbi, believe it or not, this really isn't about you personally. All of the above people I mentioned have given you support and advice, yes there are some "holier than thou" types out there but they are not limited to the TS community.

Are we going to be an inclusive community willing to help EVERYONE understand us or are we going to hide ourselves behind a layer of tribes and secret special "in" crowds. I'm not interested if it is the second option.

[Angela Campbell]

The way a professional therapist who specializes in transition explained it to me was, a transexual is what a person is. Transition is what a person does.

I was a transexual from birth. Took 50 years for me to get to transition. Then again, I know some who transitioned but are not TS. One is a gay man who transitioned because he didn't like gay men and wanted to have relationships and sex with straight men. Talk to this person for a short time and it is pretty clear.

Transition is a tough thing. Having debilitating fear is part of it. Not being clear that you will is often a part of it too.

In most cases you can tell whether or not someone here is real, but it can be faked. Sometimes, "it takes one to know one" is true. Most of us who have transitioned seem to be able to tell. You can see it in the responses, or more often lack of responses to some threads.

Hell, some days I'm not even sure that I'm real. Maybe this is all just a dream.

[Carlene]

Within our community isn't this the forum where we should be most inclusive? Should we not be celebrating those who have transitioned, extend our best wishes to those who are in the midst of their journey, and be empathetic to those, for whatever reason, find themselves unable to move forward?

[LeaP]

Lea the tongue and cheek in your response to Kaitlyn falls short for me. I think her harsh way of saying it might be better than sugar coating it all the time. This crap is real and it sucks and at times I think I is needed. The one thing is though is that she didn't invalidate anyone while saying it and that is the difference .

And I for one am tired of high and mighty transexuals invalidating what I am going through because I am walking a different path.

This is why there is no community in this..to many high and mighty

You really lost me with this response. My response to Kaitlyn was dead serious.

And who in God's name are you talking about?

BTW, from where I sit, your situation isn't as unique as you apparently think it is. Your path is yours - no argument there. But it's hardly atypical so far.

[Brooklyn]

In just about any subject, I’m less concerned with what people believe, and more interested in what people have actually experienced. The new vocabulary around transgender life is so confusing; I’m highly “binary" and have gone from one closet half-way into another where I’m left wondering how many co-workers, acquaintances, and neighbors know or care about my status. But honesty from trans-women like Melissa gives this part of the forum integrity, which in turn makes it a great resource to those of us headed down the same path.

[emma5410]

The people on this forum are really inventive. We seem to constantly find new ways to have the same conversation. I agree that the forum should be open to everyone. That those who have travelled further down the path should give advice to those further back.
The problem is that some of those further back are shouting instructions to those nearer the front.


A professional mountain climber can celebrate his triumph over Mount Everest, but does this mean a paraplegic shouldn't celebrate just being able to stand?

No but it does mean that the paraplegic should not pretend that they know what it is like to climb Everest. They should not suggest that they care more about their families because they have stayed safe and sound at home.

When I first joined the forum I lurked and read all I could. I was facing transition and I was terrified. Suicide seemed the more likely option. I read posts by Kaitlyn, Melissa and others and to be honest I did not believe all of what they wrote. They said it was a tough road. Having followed their path I know they are right. From where I was initially I thought I understood. I had read so much. I was completely wrong I had no idea. Until you do it you have no idea. What is worst is that you have no idea that you have no idea.

But this conversation will go on and on. Those who will never transition fully , or do it so slowly that it amounts to the same thing, will continue giving advice to those who desperately need to and that is dangerous.

[Badtranny]

Eryn, are you changing your narrative on us? Because if I remember correctly, you were a committed 'middle pather' and now you are a careful transitioner?

Look, going slow and NOT transitioning is the smart way to go. Always, but even in this thread you are implying that you care more for your family than people who have transitioned despite having families. Doesn't anybody understand that point? You Eryn, have said many times that you can't transition because it wouldn't be fair to your loved ones, or something to that effect. You say you feel the same way as us, but you need to be careful about disrupting the lives of you and yours. Yet my friends have transitioned despite feeling the SAME WAY AS YOU!

People like you make a mockery of people like PaulaQ and Annie K. They both completely upended their lives resulting in losing homes and moving to different states. Both incredibly bright, passionate, level headed people yet they stopped talking and pulled the damn pin despite the cost, despite the pain. Who are you to tell them that they didn't love their family? You and others are absolutely on record with comments about not transitioning because of familial and/or professional obligations. By the way, they are both excellent reasons for not doing it, but my girls don't need to hear it. Do you not think they feel it? Don't you think they suffer some regret every now and then?

Further, I am not advocating for a TS only forum. I don't write for Paula and Annie and the other girls, I write for the newbies. I write for the people that are looking into the abyss. I honestly don't even know how to arrive at a forum that would be acceptable, but I am routinely disheartened by this one.

Also, Eryn, regarding the glass house comment, the analogy doesn't hold up because I don't pretend or portend that I have had any surgery other than what I have stated. A few of the girls on this board have seen me in Mexico and even more know me well enough personally to vouch for everything I've said. I'm glad you brought that up though because let's imagine that there was a Post-Op Forum. You may think that I would be sticking my nose in, but I certainly would not. I'm not a Postie, and I have a few very close friends that are, so I know those gals are dealing with stuff physically and emotionally that I have no idea about. Do they think that quitters like me are 'real' women? I don't know, and I don't care. Those girls are entitled to every feeling they have as far as I'm concerned, and I would never presume that they accept me as one of their own because I really really hate my penis, just haven't gotten around to it yet. They have done something that I won't do. My reasons are my own, but I still have a pickle and they don't. Those are just plain old facts. They are welcome to process those facts in whatever way suits them best.

At the end of the day, We are out. We have burnt down our old lives and now face every day with complete honesty about who we are and THAT is the only point I'm trying to make. I think this forum should be about celebrating honesty and authenticity. That's a worthwhile endeavor.

[PaulaQ]

Eryn, are you changing your narrative on us? Because if I remember correctly, you were a committed 'middle pather' and now you are a careful transitioner?

Eryn's on HRT now. And yeah, she flipped over to the dark side with the rest of us. Muahahaha! (Just kidding about the fiendish laugh part!) This is part of the reason I think this forum should be pretty welcoming to middle-pathers - because a fair number of them end up transitioning. Yeah, they say some stuff that is off base at times, usually out of fear. (Hint: Being non-binary isn't an easy way to stay in the closet. Actually being non-binary is generally much, much harder if you really live it openly, because NO ONE understands who you are. NO ONE.)


Look, going slow and NOT transitioning is the smart way to go.

Well, except when it isn't. Going slow and NOT transitioning would've yielded RIP Paula. Everybody is different. I mostly reach out to people here who strike me as future lead poisoning victims. I figure the rest will eventually sort themselves out and don't need to hurry.


You Eryn, have said many times that you can't transition because it wouldn't be fair to your loved ones, or something to that effect. You say you feel the same way as us, but you need to be careful about disrupting the lives of you and yours. Yet my friends have transitioned despite feeling the SAME WAY AS YOU!

Lucky her then. She gets a choice - or gets the luxury of thinking she has one. (The latter is something some of us discover - that we don't really have a choice.) Either way, time will tell.


People like you make a mockery of people like PaulaQ and Annie K. They both completely upended their lives resulting in losing homes and moving to different states. Both incredibly bright, passionate, level headed people yet they stopped talking and pulled the damn pin despite the cost, despite the pain. Who are you to tell them that they didn't love their family?

Meh. I never feel like anyone who tries it differently than me makes a mockery of me. I did what I had to do. Yeah, it sucked for my family, and my ex-wife and one of my kids hate my guts. It would've been worse for them (or at least my kids) if I'd committed suicide. That's always the worst choice for children - they are far more likely to attempt suicide themselves, and at the very least tend to suffer grave emotional harm after surviving a parent who commits suicide. (It would've been worse for my ex too - suicides don't pay life insurance, and dead people don't pay spousal support.)

So given two horrible alternatives - dead father or live mother (or whatever I am to them now), I chose the one that caused the least damage to them and to me.

But look, if someone else manages to do this with less dire choices than I faced, then I'm happy for them. I mean that. It just tells me they transitioned in time, before it got really bad, unlike me, who very nearly waited until it was too late. (It's only too late to transition when you are dead.)

The main thing I'd tell someone who moves kind of slowly, particularly if they do it out of fear, rather than calculation, is that dysphoria can become relentless, and my experience is that it's better to move purposefully through transition - stopping halfway through the minefield of transition is often a recipe for disaster, in my opinion and based on others I've watched. (For example, some things, like coming out, tend to have a limited window of opportunity - you can tell your story before everyone hears, or word gets out, and you lose control of your narrative.)

But none of that makes me feel one way or the other about my own transition. I just sort of ask questions, try to give advice, and if people don't take it and seem to struggle later, reengage with them. And hey, if what they try works for them and they live OK lives without racking up as many losses as some of us have, then I'm really quite happy for them. Personally, I'd be happy if the world was such that when my mom caught me as a kid, she'd told me "it's OK, you can be a girl if that's what you need to be." I hope we see a day like that someday - it's starting to happen a little bit.

I mean I'm sad about what happened, and I miss things about my old life. But I know what I faced was so far beyond me that resistance was impossible. So I am finally over guilt. (My ex threatening to sue me while I was writing a check to cover repairs for equipment I was selling for her did help alleviate that guilt some, I won't lie to you!)

I will say that comments like that - that I didn't care enough about my family - did hurt at first, when I was racked with guilt. A little bit of "there but for the grace of god go I" on the part of some of the folks making those types of comments would've gone done pretty smooth back then. (Actually the ones that really hurt me were the comments from some of the CDs who said "*sniff* Well... If you'd been just a CD, your marriage almost certainly would've stayed together!" These were made by people who didn't know my wife - I am quite certain that the day I admitted I did anything more girly than not watching pro sports, that my days of marriage were numbered. It was like they were saying it was somehow my fault I was like this. That really seemed unfair.)

I do think it's really hard to hear stuff like that when a person is starting out. I don't see that trying to avoid hurting your family is the same as making those types of comments though. I think putting others first when faced with GD is generally a losing tactic, but in general if someone wants to try various things to avoid making their life a total disaster, that's fine with me. I don't really get too worried about it unless they seem to have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel...


Do they think that quitters like me are 'real' women? I don't know, and I don't care.

You aren't a quitter. And of course we think you are a real woman - or at least I do. You know why? Because you told me you are one. And that's good enough for me. I've been with people with all different kinds of parts. At the end of the day, what's between your legs may have some impact on how you have sex with someone else, but it doesn't say a thing about who you are as a person. Bottom line - you are all girl as far as I'm concerned. Some girls have a penis, is all.


I think this forum should be about celebrating honesty and authenticity. That's a worthwhile endeavor.

OK, we do totally agree on this. I tend to look at the end result - is the person living an authentic life, as best I can tell? I don't have to agree with it, nor does it have to suit me. I look more for things like:
- dealing with the consequences of whatever you had to do to about your gender. (Not avoiding - dealing with them in some manner)
- altering their life somehow, preferably to a better state than it was before in some way
- especially changing who they are internally - letting their true self out
More or less the opposite of someone who makes completely fear based excuses for not doing something they desperately need to do.

Look though, this is a process, and even if someone gets kind of stuck for a bit, they can eventually get themselves moving forward again. Hopefully someone here can gently nudge them along. Example: "Um, look. You've been on HRT for what, five years now, and you say you wear "androgynous" clothing that's still women's clothing, even to work, but you aren't out at work? And you say you hide 'girl mode' by not wearing dangly earrings to work? Oh honey, this is Texas, and no regular dude wears earrings and carries a clutch purse to the lunchroom... You need to come out - they know already." (Don't laugh - I've had this conversation - for real. And when they did come out - it was - drumroll please - fine.)

Anyway, I'm not concerned if someone comes on here and says "middle path." "I'll never transition." "Wife and kids -- too important, can't do it!" because more often than people like to admit, "Started HRT yesterday..." follows... If it takes a person a while to beat down denial, well, it just does. That seems to be the way of this, to me.

edit: @Misty - just noticed your forum avatar. Bravo, I love it. I may argue with you about all kinds of stuff, but girl, you got moxie!

edit 2: I'll just say one last thing. The part that always concerns me with people who try to stay closeted for a very long time / forever is that the hard part of transition is learning to be yourself, and not wear a protective mask. Look, most of us needed the mask to survive in the world for a time. But when it's time to let it go, you have to do that. If you have leeway to minimize the damage this causes your life, great. But there's no way to learn how to live a new life without actually living it. Particularly if you are highly binary, switching from one mode to another is often intensely painful emotionally. People also underestimate the difficulty of this I think, focusing on the more obvious obstacles like "coming out", "medical transition", etc. It's often very difficult to let go of the old stuff that holds you back.

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

To be honest I was going to avoid this thread like an uncharted minefield. However, I did feel obliged to provide my two cents and they can be taken for what they are worth. I consider myself TS and that was my call which wasn't based on some qualitative analysis of percentages/probabilities and other descriptive stats to define myself as such. I know I a woman and always was meant to be a woman . . . yeah it took 50 years to figure that out but some folks just need a bit of time. When I figured that out and accepted it, I took steps to deal with it in my own way. I tried the non-binary approach and in a sense I think it was just me holding on to what was comfortable (being a guy) but in the end it became confusing for others at work and for me in my day to day existence flopping between happy (being a woman) and sad (being a man). I came here because to be honest I was scared to death as finally pulling the pin on the tranny grenade (TM)was harder than anything I have every done in my life including combat. I got a smack down or two when I first came here but learned the ropes quite quickly: (1) Nobody here ever told me I could not be who I wanted to be. If I wanted to consider myself TS vice TG or whatever, that was my call; (2) respond, post, commiserate or whatnot but don't provide advice or comparative analysis on things you have not lived or don't have first hand knowledge (makes sense) :); and (3) this is a very personal thing.

Now I have gone as far as I can down the road without HRT or surgery and as I have maintained I don't feel the need and that is not to say some day I won't. However right now I do not. Does this mean I have transitioned to post-op? IMHO yes because I no longer live as a man, no longer consider myself a man and do not feel happy as a man. Could others see me as not TS because I have not pursued HRT, surgery nor aligned my birth sex with my gender legally? Possible but to be honest . . . I don't care because as I said in point number three of the things I learned . . . this is personal to the individual and that individual is me.

Keeping those things in mind while I may offer a congratulatory salutation for someone who posts about starting HRT, I would never dive in with my two cents about why they should or should not do so as I have no frame of reference to dispense such advice. Would I respond to someone looking for advice about coming out at work? Yes, because I have come out at work and understand the pitfalls of doing so. Would I respond to someone wanting to commiserate about how hard this can be? Well, that depends. I would provide discourse from my own POV regarding my own high and low points but I would never tell that person my way is the best way to handle things because my circumstances are fundamentally different.

In the end, nobody has come here (in my opinion) saying . . . psst I think you belong on the other side of the curtain sunshine, they have only asked that if you are going to participate in discussions, choose you words wisely and provide advice from a position of knowledge. :)

Cheers

Marcelle

[Eryn]

Eryn, are you changing your narrative on us? Because if I remember correctly, you were a committed 'middle pather' and now you are a careful transitioner?


Eryn's on HRT now. And yeah, she flipped over to the dark side with the rest of us....

Thank you for noticing, Paula, but let's not let the reality of my current status get in the way of Melissa's attack. It's a pretty good rant.

BTW, when I announced my decision here six months ago I received congratulatory replies and welcomes to the "dark side" from everyone in this thread. Well, there was one notable exception. :hmph:

[gonegirl]

Here's whats confusing: when I read a post in the CD section written 3 days ago by someone who's supposedly transitioning (transsexual women and men transition) where they self reference as being in a secret society of cross dressers.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?232598-Trying-to-guess-if-someone-is-a-crossdresser&p=3825874#post3825874
Problem is, none of us wants to be recognized!

We're the most secret secret society, one in which we don't even acknowledge each other!

[becky77]

At the end of the day, We are out. We have burnt down our old lives and now face every day with complete honesty about who we are and THAT is the only point I'm trying to make. I think this forum should be about celebrating honesty and authenticity. That's a worthwhile endeavor.

I'm not sure about celebration, but I am pretty proud of myself for having the strength to see this through.

[PaulaQ]

Sorry for talking about you Eryn. You are a good example of what I'm talking about though. Many of us approach transition out of a place of fear. Giving people who say "I'll never transition!" space where they can say stuff, even if it's kinda wrong a little, before they realize "oh crap, I'm exactly going to transition!" is one of the things I think a forum like this can do for people.

My opinion is that most of the time, the arguments some of us make against transition are not with the person in the thread, but really with ourselves.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Maybe Eryn if you laid off some of the things you say in the future you will not get the response you did..

That's the bottom line...

[Eryn]

Here's whats confusing: when I read a post in the CD section written 3 days ago by someone who's supposedly transitioning (transsexual women and men transition) where they self reference as being in a secret society of cross dressers.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?232598-Trying-to-guess-if-someone-is-a-crossdresser&p=3825874#post3825874

#1 I was unaware that people on the TS path weren't supposed to converse with people on the CD section. I guess I'm a rebel! Where's my stars and bars?

#2. I do not think that most TS people want to be recognized as such in public any more than a CD. For me it is pretty much inevitable but I prefer it doesn't happen.,


Sorry for talking about you Eryn. You are a good example of what I'm talking about though...

I don't mind at all because you are fairly aware of what I'm about and reasonable in your comments.


Maybe Eryn if you laid off some of the things you say in the future you will not get the response you did..

That's the bottom line...

You're right, if I am silent I won't be commented upon.

However, is the point to silence anyone who has a view the least bit contrary to the one you wish to hear?

That would yield a bland conversation!

In some ways I have already been silenced, since I have chosen not to share minor milestones that I found significant to my transition progress because they would immediately become fodder for the naysayers. Nobody wants to achieve a goal and then be told that it was insignificant or invalid by some self-appointed arbiter of transness.

[Zooey]

#1 I was unaware that people on the TS path weren't supposed to converse with people on the CD section. I guess I'm a rebel!

#2. I do not think that most TS people want to be recognized as such in public any more than a CD. For me it is pretty much inevitable but I prefer it doesn't happen.,

I'm trying to stay out of this, but I think you're missing the point of the criticism in this specific case. It's not about conversing in the CD section, or about not wanting to be clocked. It's about using language that implies to readers that you are a part of the CD community, when you are also professing here to instead be a member of another, very different community with (generally) very different motivations and concerns.

I'm not saying you meant anything by it, or even that I care, but it is confusing language to use.

[Jennifer-GWN]

I've been biting my lip on this one and now it's bleeding. Ok... Generally I'm miss happy but if the only way to be considered as a true transitioner is to have sea of blood and personal carnage behind you then I guess I'm not a member of the transitioned club.

Have I had my personal and internal agony? YEP. Many years of it that led me close to suicide a year ago. Has MY transition using my view gone well? Absolutely. likely in part due to careful planning, good luck, and favorable environment to transition in. I acknowledge others have had or for those at some stage in the transitioning process might have a crap load of all kinds of issues. Can I offer perspective to others? Yep; and I know that ymmv applies here as well.

Is there carnage and blood behind me? Not really and I'm thankful for that daily and look at it as a second chance at life and I better make it a damn good one.

So here I am Hormonally female, Name Changed officially, Gender Marker Changed, Out EVERYWHERE. No hiding, no mixed mode, it's all girl time. Dangly bits intact with path forward to be determined. Not everyone's need to transition is driven solely by an utter hate for those dangly bits. Do I consider myself at the core a woman? Yes; damn straight I do and subsequently considered myself transitioned.

So I'll let the judge and jury decide if I am member or not and do/should I have a voice and opinion to share going forward. If the answer is no then I'll happily shut up go to my room.

This forum has been such a great help to me. I've read so many great threads with good responses and varied opinions that have help me sort through my own issues as I charted my path forward.

I fear this and a few other threads are taking us away from meaningful and thought provoking sharing and more into sparing in a boxing ring between each other on definitions and validation criteria.

So I'll ask where is that transitioning application and whose decided that blood and carnage is the test criteria attached. I thought this was about sharing experiences; while being mindful that sharing should be driven by experience and constructive questioning.

Are all these threads and this current state purely manifested by the recent person to remain nameless situation. If so I think it's time to move on. That particular situation did throw me for a loop as well but I'm not naive to think that this situation exists in many forms including trolls etc and eventually get weeded out. I think most of us here are mature from the point of view that they don't follow one particular persons view blindly, if so they have much bigger issues recognized or not by them.

Transitioning is, as someone tells me regularly, pretty much the most f'ed up thing someone can do and you better have either your shit together or a support system around you to help as you go through the motions... And everyone's path and timeline is personal to them and only them.

Rant over...Jennifer

[Eryn]

I'm trying to stay out of this, but I think you're missing the point of the criticism in this specific case. It's not about conversing in the CD section, or about not wanting to be clocked. It's about using language that implies to readers that you are a part of the CD community, when you are also professing here to instead be a member of another, very different community...

I'm not saying you meant anything by it, or even that I care, but it is confusing language to use.

It was only confusing to someone carefully searching through my posts to find a "gotcha" to use in this thread. I was obviously speaking as a member of the overall TG community when I used the word "we" in the MTF section.

[PaulaQ]

#2. I do not think that most TS people want to be recognized as such in public any more than a CD. For me it is pretty much inevitable but I prefer it doesn't happen.,

This is a whole n'other can of worms, and a good point. Some of us want to be stealth. All of us just want to be treated with dignity, as the people we are. I'm really about as out as a person can be, but I'd be a liar if I said I didn't milk passing privilege for all it's worth in some situations. Of course many of us will never have that privilege - they are really the brave ones. (Actually, I think they are the most beautiful ones, too.)

I think it's worth pointing out that some of us end up needing a lot more courage than others of us, and some of our situations make various transitional steps easier or harder. This is why I try not to judge - there's just no way to know if someone has legitimate reasons to hesitate, or if they are just getting in their own way, something I also observe quite frequently, both in myself, and in other men and women I've worked with. (The latter is the main thing I try to help people with. Getting in the way of your own transition serves no purpose - but it's so easy to do it because of fear.)

To me, veracity is a process, just like transition. We all start out, almost all of us anyway, having this awful lie shoved down our throats until it nearly chokes us to death. It takes a while to hack it up, and often what comes out during that process isn't pretty. But in the end, we're OK.

BTW, I post on the CD section all the time. Indeed, I reach out when I can to local CD groups. Some of us start out down the CD path. Many of us don't, but some do. Some take a slow path going en femme in public, some barely CD at all, and totally in the closet at home. (That latter was me.) Some become desperate. Some come to a gradual realization. When I can help, I try to.

[Suzanne F]

Ok I tried to stay out of this but I just have to say something! First off I salute Melissa for championing living an authentic life. I am with her on that being the goal of this forum, supporting those who risk everything to have it. I was with her the other night and I can tell you that she passionately feels that women here who risk everything to have it should be exalted. For her, women who are not willing to risk everything should not be criticizing those that do. They should not comment on matters they haven't faced yet. I agree.

I too wanted to protect my family. However, it was inevitable that I would have to risk everything because I have been driven to be me since coming out. It has been an unavoidable force and could not be controlled. I thank Melissa for for helping me to see that! At times I did feel less than when I wasn't out at work. Yes there were practical reasons but there was also fear that had to be overcome.

Finally, I learned a valuable lesson in all of that. No one on this forum should have the power to make me feel less of a woman. If I can't take the criticism and either adjust or walk away then how can I hope to navigate an often difficult world. I am a woman and my opinion on that fact is the only one that matters. Transition is tough and requires tough women. I am out and will not go quietly into the night. Life is too short to wait any longer.

Suzanne

[LeaP]

I think I've re-read this thread 50 times trying to figure out how to address the myriad of (frankly) off-topic issues that have been interjected. I was successively intrigued, disturbed, confused, then disoriented. It doesn't help that I'm getting a cold and have missed 4 days of ADs. (Don't ask.) Then my head blew off. So, after retrieving it, screwing it back on reasonably tightly, then thinking a bit, I decided to simply answer the questions in the OP. I'm answering the rhetorical intentions, not necessarily the literal or implied questions. This will undoubtably be too long as it is, so I won't mince words.

Is veracity important? There are two kind of relevant content - information and advice. Information can be independently verified. Cites help. Personal veracity not required. Taking advice from unknown people of unknown experience and motives is foolish.

Forum for transitioners? Answered before, but yes - should be. Declared intention, in-process, or already transitioned are close enough.

Why is it difficult to make distinctions? It isn't. My answer is the same as the one above. The baseline of social transition is close enough for me. The other "distinctions," nuances, considerations, etc. being introduced are irrelevant to the OP. Arguing for the importance, presence, need, and so on of non-transition(er) considerations misses the point. Parenthetically, this need not take on any qualitative aspect. Unfortunately, the OP introduced that when talking about the "hard stuff," which begged for comparisons and objections. I say let it go in favor of advocating transitioners' unique needs. It's a tiny group and otherwise buried and lost.

Do timelines suggest progress? Yes. No action, intentions notwithstanding, no transition. I think the related at-risk point Misty makes is valid. IMHO, the actions that matter as real measures of transition progress are those impacting one's public life, i.e., despite the risk of adverse outcomes in private life when coming out there. I tipped the risk scale when I came out to (select) management at work. I'm going to push hard on the scale when I meet with a board member and press her for a job on the basis of her diversity statements while telling her I will transition on her watch.

Why are people allowed to say things like GD never goes away? A simple answer is lost in the non-transitioner argumentation being presented. Which is that transition is the only resolution for GD for those who must transition. This isn't tautological, it's fundamental in the medical literature and THE rationale for gender-confirming surgeries in particular. Here's the rub - the GD focus of the TS forum is the gist of the noise in that the forum isn't REALLY transsexual-focused at all as a result. For a double dose of the rub, add the fact that much of the "GD" discussion isn't about GD anyway.

Should coming out mean anything in this 'community' (forum)? ("Coming out" taken here as asking why transition should receive prominence.) You bet, because it takes discussion into considerations of public life. "Real life" isn't a good usage here. The inner life is real and important, just not relevant to the OP's emphasis.

[Badtranny]

Generally I'm miss happy but if the only way to be considered as a true transitioner is to have sea of blood and personal carnage behind you then I guess I'm not a member of the transitioned club.

Well, all I can say is I'm sorry if I am giving the impression that a transition MUST be awful to be authentic. I do NOT believe that, however, my experience has been different. My transition has been challenging but I have had it easier than some, and others have had it much better than me. Speaking for myself, I think it's wonderful that you have managed to avoid some of the trauma that many of us experience. I also think that it's rare and I want bad stuff to be talked about so people know what they're getting into ...potentially. The fact is, it won't make a bit of difference to people who are dead set on transitioning, (and it shouldn't) but hopefully we can help people who may be romanticizing the experience to avoid a rather costly mistake. Transition isn't for everybody.


So here I am Hormonally female, Name Changed officially, Gender Marker Changed, Out EVERYWHERE. No hiding, no mixed mode, it's all girl time.

and there you are, transitioned. Coming out is the "hard part". Coming out at work is the REALLY hard part. Changing your name is necessary to live a real life, and all the rest is just chemicals and surgery neither of which are necessary to live an authentic life.

Some people are not on the transition path, yet they live authentically and without secrets. They are out as cross dressers or gender queers and they live the life they want to live with no apologies and no regrets. Those people should be celebrated. A 300lb CD or trans woman who is out damn well deserves to be celebrated because as Paula mentioned, they are truly the bravest among us. Certainly braver than me. I had to move 4 hours north to the SF Bay before I could even contemplate coming out as gay. When I finally got my head straight and started transitioning, I still couldn't go full time without breasts and extensive face work. Sure I was out. I was telling everyone who would listen about my 'transition', but there was no way I was walking into that office without changing my face and to tell you the truth, my face was still much more masculine than I was hoping for. Some of us, need more work than others.

Yes transition is a very personal experience and we all have our own way of walking it but we also all have one thing in common; a determination to live as our target gender free of the hiding and sneaking and pretending that has shaded most of our lives.

Eryn may feel like I'm targeting her, and I can understand why, but I'm really not. I'm trying to change the zeitgeist here. I want to plant the idea to the next generation of transitioners (trans generation equals 3-5 years) that the only thing that really matters is honesty. Honesty with the world, but most of all, honesty with yourself. I want them to be intolerant of secrets and the closeted, I want everyone's goal to be coming out of the closet, whatever that may look like. To live the life that you want to live without fear and shame. Very few people will actually transition but that doesn't mean they can't still be free and surround themselves with like minded people.

Someday, I will grow weary of internet forums and blogs and I will be like the mist that burns away in the sun. ...but the seed that we have planted here will have grown into a new crop of rugged, brave souls who will not apologize for their brash decisions to live their lives with courage and authenticity.

[PretzelGirl]

Jennifer, great rant! Seconded!

Misty, I always think that someday I will grow weary of the forums. I have said it to some privately. But even the disagreements feel like arguing with siblings. I don't like that we are not agreeing, but I come back for more. Masochist. LOL

Another edit. I think the struggle I have is that I view transgender as an umbrella and I don't like to sort us underneath it. We are in this together. On Saturday I paid my dues to the local Tri-Ess for my eighth year with this group. They are trans*, they are beautiful, and they are my family. So with this exposure, and it isn't just that one night a month that I spend with transgender individuals with a story different than mine, it keeps me in the mindset where I don't draw these boundaries of who is who.

[Eryn]

Why are people allowed to say things like GD never goes away?...

A statement I made a month ago has taken on a life of its own. Unfortunately, the last part of what I said was ignored:

"...I think some vestige of GD will always remain."

That's "vestige," as in "trace amount" or "legacy." Does anyone transition and completely forget that they had GD?

[Kate T]

If we want to talk about veracity here is what really &^*% me.

TS troping out the bog standard "I always knew I was a girl" line and then transitioning in their 50's after family etc. I'm out, full time, sure some of my clients still think I'm male but I now introduce myself as Kate and am working through my client list as they come in to tell them. My wife and I own our own business so there is no "HR" or bosses to tell. I work in pants and a buttoned shirt because you can't really work in anything else with animals (no, literally, I mean dogs and cats). Am I verified enough Misty?? But I will say that whilst IN HINDSIGHT, sure, I didn't fit in, wasn't quite at ease with other boys most of the time it was actually intellectual, NOT to do with gender. I had NO IDEA that what I was feeling meant that my internal sense of gender was female, there was no internet, the only TS and CD's in the news tended to be drag queens and I definitely wasn't gay / attracted to males nor into performing so clearly I wasn't "one of them". But did I know I was "really a woman", not even close. So yeah, I smell a bit of "retrospectoscope" rewriting of some peoples history when they come up with a whole heap of cliche's describing their feelings about their life. And it doesn't just come from wannabes it comes from transitioned and transitioners as well.

We are also not immune ourselves to the "veracity trap". Paula, you've lived being bigendered have you? Have a personal experience on how hard / easy / surely your just TS in denial? Sorry Paula and not necessarily trying to pick on you, I'm actually starting to enjoy your posts and like you a bit more recently (though seriously can we "close" the "closure" thread in LO, it's starting to make my head spin at 6 pages and trying to go back and remember the context of a comment is bringing on early dementia!). I have no doubt you have friends who are bigendered but it really doesn't give us the right to assume stuff about them or what they experience or feel other than what we observe.

All I'm trying to point out is that we do need to make sure that when we look into that mirror with our "honesty matters" card in hand, we also ask the really hard questions and examine ourselves and our own actions. We are not always without reproach.

[emma5410]

But did I know I was "really a woman", not even close. So yeah, I smell a bit of "retrospectoscope" rewriting of some peoples history when they come up with a whole heap of cliche's describing their feelings about their life. And it doesn't just come from wannabes it comes from transitioned and transitioners as well.

Did you see what you did there. Just because you did know you were "really a woman" does not mean that others did not.

[Badtranny]

All I'm trying to point out is that we do need to make sure that when we look into that mirror with our "honesty matters" card in hand, we also ask the really hard questions and examine ourselves and our own actions. We are not always without reproach.

My integrity is absolutely beyond reproach. My blog is 100% unvarnished truth.

It is interesting that some are so offended by my simple little sign.

[Michelle789]

Paula, your post is very well written and sums up everything that I was thinking.




I know why we are marginalized and discounted in real life, but why on this forum?

So, if we expect everyone to fit into a cookie cutter definition of what a transitioner is, we are marginalizing a good chunk of the transgender community. We are leaving out many people who don't conform to the norms expected to be a member of this forum, who in turn have nowhere to turn. Wait. The transgender community in real life does this too. Haven't genderqueers been marginalized by the trans community? Haven't the passable ones socially ostracized the non-passable ones? Haven't those who have suffered through more pain - worse dysphoria, more procedures, or more social difficulty - put down the ones who suffered through less pain?

Yes, this shit happens in the real life trans community, not just on this forum. It's really a shame that we as a community can't be more united. No wonder the whole world hates us. We must unite and put aside all our differences if we are to gain acceptance and tolerance in this world.

Genderqueers, or other trans people who don't fit the cookie cutter mold of being transgender, are often excluded from the real life transgender community. We don't really have a place for everyone else. I mean, we have MTF CD. We have transmen. We have the transsexual forum.

But what about the genderqueers?

What about gender fluids? Agenders?

What about those who want to live as a woman socially, but not medically transition?

What about those whose GD is relieved from a small dosage of HRT, and no need to socially or legally transition?

What about those who are genetically blessed and don't need FFS?

What about those who desperately need FFS but have no way of funding it?

What about those who transition in every way possible, but are content with their penis?

What about those who transition in every way possible, and need the whole gamut of procedures, but have to pick between FFS and SRS? They only have the money for one or the other, but desperately need both?

What about those that can't get surgery or HRT because of old age or serious medical conditions?

What about those who are underprivileged and live in states or other geographic locations where changing their name and/or gender is nearly impossible?

What about those who have special circumstances preventing them from changing their name and/or gender? Maybe it's employment. Maybe it's related to being in school. Maybe someone is torn about whether or not to keep their birth last name or change it to something else.

How about someone who was given a he/she name at birth, is content with their birth name because it passes as for both male and female, and doesn't change name, only gender?

What about the transitioner who really wants to save up as much money as possible before coming out at work, so if they get fired, they can have enough money to pay for FFS, SRS, electrolysis, HRT, food, rent, transportation, and the last minute emergency that costs $3000?

What about those who are lucky to still have jobs after coming out from work?

What about those who deliberately don't want to pass? Those who want to retain some male features, or those who have passing privilege who choose to come out to everyone as trans.

What about those who were lucky enough to gain a relationship after starting their transition?

What about those who in fact got their highest salary since transitioning?

Have you ever considered that stuff that could go wrong during transition is not conventionally related to transition, such as bronchitis? Or the death of a family member? I mean, life still happens on life's terms while transitioning.

How about those that just don't believe in putting themselves back into another box after transitioning?


How many of you can honestly say you answered "yes" to any of the above questions? Just one. Even if none of the other situations apply to you, you can relate to just one of them. Maybe you're the transitioner who was lucky to keep your job, but you lost your wife, and went through the whole set of procedures. But you don't fit neatly into the box of what is considered to be a transitioner, because you still have your job. I would imagine that way more of us don't fit neatly into the classical box of what a transitioner is supposed to do, look like, and experience. Maybe we all do, in some way or another. Humans are diverse and hence why transgender people do exist. Transgender people are just as diverse, and may variations exist within our community. There is no one-size fits all transgender person, or one size-fits all transsexual.

Maybe it's time we change the name of this forum to the "Transgender Forum", and we encompass all identities. And this section is appropriate for all general transgender related discussions, including questioning your own identity, gender dysphoria, coming out, social transition, victories, difficulties. We could keep the "Transsexual Body Issues" for discussions of HRT, electrolysis, and surgeries. And we can add a "Legal Transition" section for discussions around the legal aspects of transition. This, btw, is just a suggestion. I'm not trying to tell the mods here what to do, and I don't want to come across that way. But this idea is just a suggestion. Oh, and no matter how we would end up re-organizing the forum (or just keeping it as it is), I believe we should include everyone who identifies and goes through at least a part of the process, and go with the innocent until proven guilty. Asking people to "prove" their legitimate, and forcing people to comply to a rigid definition of what constitutes transition, is only going to either (a) exclude people who really need this forum, or (b) or result in people lying so that they can either prove themselves or lie to sound like they fit the rigid mold of what a transitioner is.

How can we ask for the world to accept us for being diverse if we can't accept the diversity within our own community?


Shouldn't this forum at least celebrate the people who would risk everything to be free?

Shouldn't this forum at least celebrate the people who risk everything to be free, but don't follow through with all procedures? Shouldn't we celebrate the transitioner who came out at work, lives 24/7, but elects to not go on HRT, get electrolysis/laser, and no surgeries? Shouldn't we celebrate the people who risk everything, but take their good old time in doing so? Shouldn't we celebrate the people who calculate their risks and execute them slowly, as well as those who risk everything all at once?


Why are people who are on record as not being out at work, not changing their name, not putting themselves at risk, allowed to come here and say things like "GD never goes away"? does it matter to anyone (except me) that there are trans women here who have put everything on the line just to be free? Does that mean anything to anyone? Are people who don't want to come out at work because it's scary as hell really in the same boat?

I only wish Cody could be a member of this forum and post. He would probably be laughing at the ways some of us here want to put ourselves, and everyone else, back into boxes. Isn't the point of transition to be your authentic self, and not to put yourself into another box? Even if you end up transitioning into a very binary identified, femininely dressed, feminine featured, feminine behavior woman who has had every procedure possible and legal name & gender change, well good for you, because that's who you are hopefully, and you weren't just trying to put yourself back into another box - the box of extreme femininity. Yeah, Cody wouldn't be too happy with the idea of someone having to legally change their name or gender to be considered a transitioner, full-time, or anything else. Why? Because Cody can't afford to pay the $700 court fee to change his documentation. Some higher income transitioners have an easier time coming up with $700, and lower income transitioners can get the court fee waived in Los Angeles County. But some of us make too much to get a waiver, and too little to afford the court fee. Perhaps someone from this forum who believes you must change legally change your name and gender to be considered RLE or full-time could give Cody $700 so he can legally change his name & gender.

Finally, I am a firm believe in innocent until proven guilty. Maybe there are some people who in spite of living and being raised in the United States believe in guilty until proven innocent. I will say this. Every one here who believes we should ask someone to prove that they are transitioning will never get picked for jury duty, for you can simply say that you believe the defendant is guilty until proven innocent. Obviously, anyone who believes that you need to prove yourself before posting believes that you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

[Kate T]

Yeah, I know exactly what I said and did there Emma. I also am acutely aware of the issues surrounding retrospective analysis of even objective data let alone subjective data. I have no doubt there are some individuals who knew that from day dot. What doesn't quite wash for me is when someone expresses that in the same cliched phrases that are littered through TS literature and internet boards. If you have a story tell it in your own words, not someone else's.

Misty, it has been my experience in life that many of those who are adamant about their own integrity seem to be trying to justify it to someone. I was merely trying to point out that even those of the highest integrity and honesty will constantly question themselves on that integrity and honesty.

[stefan37]

Cody can absolutely join this forum. TS forum is open to all

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I had no idea what i was either Adina..

I spent my time wishing i was a girl but knowing what a transsexual was...as i developed i thought i was a kinky freak..i just kept my mouth shut..

i found out about transsexuals and i thought they were "allowed" to live as women because they were sex workers or dancers...

and even today that 40 plus year journey of cluelessness causes me to have difficulty saying "i'm a woman" out loud without a feeling of shame and confusion...

+++++++++++++++
and my transition went pretty great!!! i'm thrilled i did it and it saved my life...
i didnt care how brutal it was...it was a brutal 2-3 years...but i had to do it, i kept my head down, planned it well and executed it...
and it all came together as everyone around me saw me succeed and i just basically felt normal for the first time...

++++++++++
so i hear you totally... i literally i had no idea and in some ways i still dont.. ...and i think it definitely impacts how i view the ts experience...and in my 40's as i got to know lots of people that were transgendered, i was heavily discouraged outside of my therapy to think of myself as transsexual...looking back that's how i learned how little most crossdressers really know

and because of my experience i always view this through the lens of gender dysphoria... and i learned over time that unless you are transsexual, you don't feel the GD the way transsexuals feel it... and its literally an incomprehensible thing to people that have not felt it...

and so when a ts person says things about what they will or won't do, i know that they are not going to ever be able to control GD,its going to do what it does...
and i know its just all bluster that is not being realistic about the future...

[Badtranny]

Misty, it has been my experience in life that many of those who are adamant about their own integrity seem to be trying to justify it to someone..

LOL

So, ...only on a forum like this can somebody be maligned for trying to be as honest as they can. People who hide behind anonymity throwing stones at people who post their real names and pictures.

I swear this argument is getting increasingly bizarre. I would love to flip the lights on in this place.

[Kimberly Ann]

I have always tried to be supportive in every way I possibly can to people in general and especially people who are struggling. This is my nature and frankly has gotten me into a lot of trouble over the years. I don't feel free to post on this thread because I am pretty sure I am one of the people being discussed who aren't qualified to comment since I'm not going through transition myself, but at this point I feel like I must.

I just wanted to say a few things that strike me and you can take it or leave it. The original post talks about being able to distinguish between those who are doing the hard stuff and those who are not. I hide my pain well and compartmentalize pretty much everything in my life. I have lived through horrific abuse in my past and not very many people know my story and they certainly do not see my pain. Trust me when I say that living in a small town in the deep South, attempting to maintain a private life, while raising kids and doing the things we need to do to strike some balance in our relationship is very challenging for me and my wife. We navigate our life by communicating way more than is natural for me and there are days I feel like I am at my breaking point.

For someone to say that my wife is not doing the hard stuff because she is trying to keep her family intact is insulting. She and I both do not judge someone who has to live their particular truth in other ways and has no other choice but to share their truth openly or die. I feel nothing but compassion for everyone who struggles with GD and am heartbroken when I hear the stories of ridicule, abuse, and great personal loss. My wife struggles to strike a balance in her life every day. I don't understand the exclusive attitudes expressed in this thread and in this forum in general. I have met a lot of people who are on this journey. Each individual has their own story, moves at their own pace, and has a different destination based on their needs. I think all of these paths are valid, they all bring something to the table, and they all deserve to be heard. If you make the decision that only people who have "put everything on the line" by your particular standards deserve to be heard, then that is your prerogative.

The original post said "The very essence of transition is NOT being closeted." My wife works from home and dresses the way she chooses both at home and when going out, she wears only female clothes and has for years (she has a very non overt gender presentation, but so do I), she has disclosed everything to her employer and her family, she changed her gender marker but not her name, she is on HRT and has a confirmed date for GRS next year. If ONLY doing these things that I have listed (which is not an all inclusive list) means my wife is not a "transitioner" by your standards, then so be it - my wife is not in transition. This doesn't change the fact that she is doing what she feels she needs to maximize her control over her GD while minimizing any negative impact on her life (which includes those whom she loves). Period. No need to use the term transition when referring to what she is doing. You can own it. You can have it. We don't need it.

My wife amazes me every day. She spends countless hours counseling other people who experience GD and does her best to be supportive and available. Some of these people have been suicidal and she has at times been their only source of support. She is working with her H.R. department to eliminate existing transgender surgical exclusions in a multi national corporation with over 25,000 employees. She is also working with them to put procedures in place to better support transgender employees to ease the process of transitioning at work. She no longer comments on the forum because she has been torn to shreds in the past and she has moved on and is supporting her community in other more meaningful ways.


I don't understand the need to continuously put people in their place when their approach doesn't match either a common narrative or your particular approach. You can consider that you have, in fact, accomplished this with us. Now you may pat yourself on the back and feel good about your personal sacrifices and your specific definition of transition and sleep good at night knowing that you 'showed us how it's done'.

Obviously there is no need for me to visit the TS section of the forum anymore. I will go back to my daily struggles and know that any support that I seek on how to navigate the mine field that exists in my life today will likely not be found here.

[LeaP]

I swear this argument is getting increasingly bizarre. I would love to flip the lights on in this place.

OMG, I love the mental picture invoked by that last bit!

As for bizarre, how about the point being missed? The responses in my companion thread are really interesting in that they show that transition-related discussion is crippled here - regardless of where the responders stand on other content and participation! NO MATTER WHAT, even if people think the problem IS transitioners, transition discussion isn't working.

[STACY B]

The whole deal with this Transgender movement as of Late is it's so Dam New and undiscovered in so many places and with all the different people on this site and we are mostly from different country's we could NEVER get together on one page in my opinion . For the simple fact of what works for you where you live may not work for me where I live. An it might seem I am always talking about my state or town and how it's different BECAUSE it is,, An I am sure where you live it's not the same as mine.

Resources , Doctors,, Therapist, Pharmacist , Groups, Clubs, Venues, On and On,,, So there is no way we will all EVER get along and agree with one another on anything including HRT an what kind and how much and what for . It all works different for everyone and everyone has a different agenda on what and where there going or where there trying to get. Maybe some just want to go the distance and become a total woman and live there life . Some may get to a point where they are comfortable with who they have become some where between and stop and live that out,, Now matter what we all do only thing we do have in common is we all admitted to someone Doctor, Therapist, Group, Spouse, Family or at least the most important person ourselves that WE are TRANSGENDER !

So that being said how far you or I go with that piece of information that we have said self admitted is yet or will be seen,, So thinking other than that is just a total waste of time in my book,, I hope all of you Luck in this deal,, I would be Happy just to feel good like I am now and ride this pony out !!

[Michelle789]

@Stacy - Plenty of us here are from within the United States and still can't agree. In fact, even people from the same state can't agree.

[Nigella]

There will NEVER be agreement on this forum. We cannot verify anyone's experience, do you know that I have had surgery? I have posted such, but apart from two other members here, one of whom is biased anyway, how does everyone else know that what I have posted I have experienced?

What I find disrespectful is those who knowingly post their "experiences" when they really have not a clue. The only way we can be sure is by checking their own contributions on this forum and observing their own lack of knowledge due to their own admission of where they are or what they have done.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I'm just going to reply to Badtranny, as much as I want to cover some other responses, due to time, and well I think these are the most important points to respond to.


It's confounding to me that so many believe that the veracity of members is NOT important.

Do you know why? Because on the internet individual veracity isn't all that important. It really isn't....because we have MULTIPLE sources of info and can see what the overal consensus is. Besides, there is no "One True Path", or "One True Solution".


I guess I just need to know something once and for all; Is the TS forum supposed to be a support forum for people that are TRANSITIONING or not?

I think the Safe Haven is more transition-focused, don't you think? So that really isn't much of a problem, is it.


Why is it sooooooo difficult to make a distinction between people that are doing the hard stuff and those who are not?

Is it really an issue? I don't really see a plague of non-trasitioners giving advice on transition matters. They tend to be asking questions, not answering them. You know damn well that they aren't commenting on hormone levels or the merits of patches vs injections, or FFS doctors or whatnot.

But that doesn't mean non-transitioners don't know "anything". For example, I know patches are safer than pills for older folk. And I wouldn't recommend Dr. O for FFS because of the cookie-cutter look in his girls that's easily recognizable.
Non-transitioners are quite capable of pointing people to resources.


I will not support the closeted in their effort to pretend they are not closeted.

Who's pretending?


Why are people who are on record as not being out at work, not changing their name, not putting themselves at risk, allowed to come here and say things like "GD never goes away"?

Because it doesn't for some people. Yes, I know of transitioned folks who have said it hasn't gone away entirely...for them. Everyone's an individual you know. Your experience is not their experience.


does it matter to anyone (except me) that there are trans women here who have put everything on the line just to be free? Does that mean anything to anyone?

What do you want, a ticker tape parade. You've transitioned, congratulations. Not much more than that can be said. Besides, we both know that socio-economic status has a LOT to do with whether someone transitions or not.


Are people who don't want to come out at work because it's scary as hell really in the same boat?

Hey! We both know that transition costs money! If someone loses their job because their workplace isn't trans-friendly then they would have less resources for transitioning, right?


I know why we are marginalized and discounted in real life, but why on this forum?

No one's marginlizing you, they're just not giving you a throne to be the Queen Bee.


Shouldn't this forum at least celebrate the people who would risk everything to be free? Does coming out mean anything in this 'community'?

Sure it means something, it was a good thing for you, wasn't it? That's something to be celebrated as what it is. But once it's done, it's done. Do want a crown and sash? Do you want to be called Transition Princess Melissa and have people curtsey when they speak to you?


LOL
People who hide behind anonymity throwing stones at people who post their real names and pictures.

Excuse me? There are transitioned folks here who suggest NOT using real names here to help keep privacy and the ability to woodwork an option. I used to append my real name to every post, but it was a TRANSITIONED TS who suggested to me that might not be a good idea. So who should we listen to, you, or her?


I swear this argument is getting increasingly bizarre. I would love to flip the lights on in this place.

No one elected YOU (or anyone else) Queen Bee. You should know better than to say stuff like that.

Veronica

[Dawn cd]

May an outsider say a word here? I sometimes comment in this forum even though I'm not transitioning, or even TS, but am a distant relative to you all. I love this forum because you are people who have opted for the big roll of the dice. Some of you have bet everything on the roll, some have bet less, but I find the whole enterprise to be very moving. It's dangerous, joyful, fearful, liberating--with an uncertain outcome. You are lovely people. I honor you.

Missy is one of my favorites here. She's always worth reading because she comes straight from the shoulder. She's entitled to her honesty because it has been purchased with pain and suffering. Of course being honest doesn't mean she's always right. Honesty exists at a different level than right and wrong. But honesty--purchased at such a price--is a rare thing and a value in itself, and needs to be acknowledged.

[LeaP]

Good points, Nigella - except that in your case, I don't care. Not in the personal sense, but because you are a moderator. I take your reality for granted. Sandra also provides a wonderfully believable partner-in-posting (besides being a mod herself). I suppose, as I have done in other cases, that I could unearth the details of your real life. But I don't feel the need to do so.

Agreement isn't the point of veracity, though. Bona fides is the point. I may not agree with something you say about transition, but I guarantee that I WILL pay attention and give it consideration because you've done it and I have not. You and Sandra have a certain importance to me, in fact, because your marriage has survived.

[Zooey]

Missy is one of my favorites here. She's always worth reading because she comes straight from the shoulder. She's entitled to her honesty because it has been purchased with pain and suffering. Of course being honest doesn't mean she's always right. Honesty exists at a different level than right and wrong. But honesty--purchased at such a price--is a rare thing and a value in itself, and needs to be acknowledged.

Everybody is entitled to be honest - that doesn't have to be earned. In fact, all Misty's really after (at least as far as I can tell) is for everybody to be honest. Honest with themselves and each other, about the nature and value of their experience or lack thereof.

Incidentally...


May an outsider say a word here? I sometimes comment in this forum even though I'm not transitioning, or even TS, but am a distant relative to you all.

251967

[Badtranny]

In fact, all Misty's really after (at least as far as I can tell) is for everybody to be honest. Honest with themselves and each other, about the nature and value of their experience or lack thereof.

Well, it's nice that a few people understand, unfortunately you're not the people that I'm trying to reach. :-)

People are getting waaaaaay too upset and I don't think I'm helping the matter.

[PretzelGirl]

Trying to look globally, it is one of those things that if you can't tell who an individual a person is replying to, you may not know exactly which point they were talking to. Some (maybe many) are very clear, no doubt. Other's may not be as direct and the confusion in threads like this can skew logarithmically. A person comments after there have already been several and everyone thinks they are talking about their point. I know I could be in that mix. In my mind I remember someone directly telling me X, but it could have been less direct and a reply to combination of comments from multiple people/threads. Eventually you hit the point that a reboot is the only possible move forward. The problem with a linear, and typed, conversation in what is more like group talk.

[becky77]

Lovely picture of you Sue.

[PretzelGirl]

Thank you Becky! I was going with the "be real" theme and saw a few people posted with signs, including yours. My thoughts went to how in the movies and TV, if a person wanted to validate that their picture was current (or time travel themes, the date in the future or past), they would take a picture with a newspaper. I thought using Misty's picture, which was current, had more panache since she started this thought process and it honored her thought.

That said, we will never have pure validation. So in a forum like this, everyone does need to use care in taking advice. Out in the open forum, I think the problem is minimized as you get a group view and one person giving garbage advice will get called out. The danger is taking your help from PMs. PMs are great for side, personal conversations, but real assistance probably should be out in the open.

And Becky, keep rocking that authenticity! The good stories make me cry as much as the bad. We need to give everyone hope along with the warnings of what can go wrong. If they only get the negative (and they need that visibility), then things like despair can set it which can create negative outcomes by itself. Balance in all we say, balance in all we do.

[Eryn]

May an outsider say a word here?


Incidentally...

251967

And that kind of sums it up. If you're honest about yourself and you don't meet someone's litmus test for transness you get insulted. Is this supportive?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

insulted for being honest??
that's a dishonest statement..

that simply does not happen..

earlier you shot out some general insults and got it right back...you stepped back from your comments saying they were in the heat of the moment
and now you say your position is that you were insulted for honesty and "litmus tests" thats dishonest...

people don't get insulted... they feel invalidated... people don't get insulted, they get called out
people don't get insulted..they get their feelings hurt if someone disagrees with them..

if insults do fly, its not for honesty and sharing of experience..

====================
you want something that actually is ironic??

the harping on "everybody is different" and "all points of view are valid" stops when that difference is about somebody that is direct, caring, unflinchingly honest and undoubtedly successful at transtion, has a strong point of view and is willing to engage people in a grown up way is viewed as a problem.

thats ironic...and frankly not in the funny kind of way

[jules]

The hell with it!
I was going to keep my nose out of this mess but!
Everybody is right everybody is wrong.
Personally I don't come on hear for validation I come hear to share my journey. No matter how stupid I sound sometimes. It's my journey!
I don't give a rats ass if someone thinks I fake. I have enough stuff to deal with. Trausition is a big thing or at least I think.
I give people the option to pm me to ask questions if they want.
To be honest I don't have a clue what I'm doing and I'm just playing this by ear.
This site has helped me find myself and there is a lot of good people hear willing to help.
The big thing is not to take advice and run with it. Feel it out and do what's right for you.
If I take 5 years or 9 mounths to come out or a women then so be it. It's my journey.
Some never come out.
Some are total fiction.
Some are just here to get there kicks or whatever.
My cat could join and say she is Transgender. Do make up,post a few pictures and away she go's.
(My cat is not on here just so you know��)
Who knows it's the Internet for Petes sake.
Sometimes going on a witch hunt is can do more damage then good. It generates, mistrust ,anger confusion and any help that could have been given is now lost.
That is the vibe I have gotten hear over the last little wile.
Some women hear like misty are brutally honest sometimes and have no fear of saying what's on their mind. And that is a good thing in my opinion it tends to keep people honest and it probably scare away the fakers.
To me that's fine. That is who they are. Live with it. That's what I do.
And if it gets to much fight back don't go run in a corner and cry.
You are going to face a lot more tougher things in you transition then what someone said or thinks of you on the Internet.
I closing I would just like to say this is a good place with a lot of good people on hear that want to help.
Transgender and cross dressers included.
Let's keep it up. If it were not for this place I would probably be pushing up daisies.






Just my thoughts
Not yours
Julie j summers

[Zooey]

And that kind of sums it up. If you're honest about yourself and you don't meet someone's litmus test for transness you get insulted. Is this supportive?

To me, it was ironic that in a thread at least partially about this very thing, somebody came in and started their post with the textbook version. Apologies if I offended anybody by finding the irony funny, and posting a picture of Alanis Morrisette singing a ridiculous song called "Ironic". To be fair, I tried to add a bunch of smiley faces too, but the editor didn't like it. :p

In my actual response to the body of Dawn's post, i think I responded very fairly and was not insulting at all. In fact, IMO, I was downright encouraging, because the whole point is that I'm PERFECTLY HAPPY to read about just about anybody's experiences, so long as they're presented for what they are. I love to read about Marcelle's experiences, because they are often so different than my own. I learn a lot from her posts. I appreciate the fact that she never tries to apply her experiences to other situations that they don't apply to. She says who she is, and talks about that. When she offers input on experiences different from her own, I think she's always incredibly thoughtful and responsible about how she does so, by offering them up as contrast to others' experiences rather than attempting redefinition of them. I think all of that is friggin' awesome, and I personally will be thrilled if more people start doing that.

[Kimberly Kael]

Do you know why? Because on the internet individual veracity isn't all that important. It really isn't....because we have MULTIPLE sources of info and can see what the overal consensus is.

I agree with the notion that it's important to consider multiple viewpoints. I disagree emphatically with the notion that the idea that we shouldn't try to judge the relative merit of each viewpoint based on our history with the individual in question. The popular consensus about LGBT people for most of my life is that we've evil, disordered, and just need corrective therapy. The fact that most of the negative viewpoints are from people who refuse to listen to anything that contradicts their world view thoroughly undermines their position. The fact that they profit from our misery makes their motives suspect. The fact that some who have screamed the loudest turn out to be hiding same-sex affairs demonstrates clearly their hypocrisy. This is a clear demonstration of the value of veracity IMHO.


Is it really an issue? I don't really see a plague of non-trasitioners giving advice on transition matters.

There's more cheerleading than specific advice, and general fooling about that drowns out transitioning voices, sometimes leading to thread closure. No, it's not an epidemic. Yes, it's sometimes a problem.


Besides, we both know that socio-economic status has a LOT to do with whether someone transitions or not.

It certainly shapes the details of a transition and the likelihood of having a good support network. Does it actually have a significant impact on who transitions? I'm less certain that's the case, but I'd be very interested in any demographic comparisons against the general population.


No one's marginlizing you, they're just not giving you a throne to be the Queen Bee.

I have had my disagreements with Missy in the past but I don't think this is a fair characterization of her position. She's lobbying for a point of view but clearly states her position as HER position. She's well aware that there are those who disagree and expects lively conversation on the subject. That's pretty much the point of a community like this.

I freely admit to having had an improbably easy transition. I'm sure my life occasionally reads like fantasy, and no "Kimberly Kael" isn't my legal name. I also haven't been called out as an imposter or made to feel especially unwelcome.


Excuse me? There are transitioned folks here who suggest NOT using real names here to help keep privacy and the ability to woodwork an option. I used to append my real name to every post, but it was a TRANSITIONED TS who suggested to me that might not be a good idea. So who should we listen to, you, or her?

You have no obligation to obey either one, but might be well served by considering both viewpoints. Harvey Milk called for gay folk of all stripes to come out of the closet and live their lives openly and proudly. Was he wrong to do so? Every individual needs to make decisions for themselves but I've frequently argued that stealth was a byproduct of a time that is passing. I expect it to be less common in the future. The reason I chose not to use my real name here? For one, I hadn't actually transitioned when I first signed up and didn't know what my name was going to be! Of course I'm sure I could have changed it since but my wife prefers that I use a pseudonym if I'm going to post anything about our relationship. Fair enough. That's me. That's my decision. It doesn't mean I think Missy doesn't have a point, and while she tends to state it rather aggressively I don't think she's power mad. She has no authority and knows it. Your unfounded accusations to the contrary are at least as belligerent.

[Nigella]

Whilst this has been an interesting discussion, it has run its course.