Forum Fear, Finessing Closets

[LeaP]

Like so many others, I was deathly afraid to post in this forum at first. As much as I realized the insight I was seeking was here, I had no idea what form the responses might take, and was even warned in PMs that the TS members would take my head off.

I posted. Responses were mostly gracious and helpful. One was kind of dismissive, which made me blanch. In a short time, it became very obvious that those most like me - or rather, who shared my issues - were here. After posting here for a while, I no longer thought of it as hostile, but still thought it as intimidating. But that's changed over time, not just because of familiarity, but because I've changed. Yes, I've had a blow up or two, been POd at the mods here and there, had my share of posts deleted, put a few people on ignore, disappeared for a few stretches, etc. But generally, I can deal with it.

Overall, participation here feels sort of like a family reunion. I can talk intimately and with mutual understanding with my closest relatives. There are distant relatives I don't know or are family/culturally very different. There are a handful with whom I am close and like a lot - and a few I neither respect nor like. I'm well-aware that the same applies to me.

I think the familiarity and kinship dynamics explain a lot of the discomfort and lack of fit that some describe. When someone marries into a family, for example, sometimes they just don't mesh. That can be a meltdown or a mild, off feeling. Reactions and reception may be justifiable at some level or not, from sister Becca showing up with her psychotic ex-con fiancé to well, we just don't like Matt's wife. The dynamics can even account for hostility, as when Aunt Mary offers you her opinion at the dinner table on how to properly deal with your noisy children.

By the way, for those of you who like the idea of trans family or community, you can expect all of this and more, including the infighting that goes on. My questioning the range of discussions in the "companion" thread is directly related to that, as the larger the community and more differences that are incorporated, the more views and goals will conflict, and the more that minorities will feel swamped. One big, inclusive community (however defined) is also only one way to address this. There are many political, relationship, and community models across the globe throughout history that explicitly address differences as well as common interests. We have a minor variation here in allowing responses to be limited. If you are going to advocate community, real community, in a diverse group, please propose a structure that formally supports the diversity. Appeals to etiquette are simplistic and enforcement brings its own problems.

Anyway, none of the above sufficently explains fear. Arguments offered for that include aggressive members, trans hierarchy, dominance politics, cliques, moderation approach, personal exposure, public correction, intellectual intimidation, and semantics driving affiliation politics. MOST of those HERE are community dynamics issues, to the extent they exist at all. They are not formal aspects of community (or forum) organization. They may play or be percieved strongly, but if you want to wade into the family or community arena, you must be prepared for it.

For this response, I'll stipulate the reality of all of them at some level, that they justify some fear. After all, we are all instinctively sensitive to social dynamics. But it's not enough. To get past blaming someone else for your fear, you have look inside. Quoting Psychology Today (emphases are theirs):


Fear is a vital response to physical and emotional danger. If we didn't feel it, we couldn't protect ourselves from legitimate threats. But often we fear situations that are far from life-or-death, and thus hang back for no good reason. Traumas or bad exeriences can trigger a fear response within us that is hard to quell. Yet exposing ourselves to our personal demons is the best way to move past them.

If I look back to why *I* was afraid, I can see several personal characteristics in play. I like logical reasoning. I like to have all of the relevant facts at my disposal. I like logic, reasoning, and rhetoric for themselves - but I've also used them to avoid talking about myself or my emotions. I've been profoundly socially averse in my adult life in new circumstances and have been deathly afraid of being the focus in a group. I've been embarrassed to the point of panic attacks and suicidality (really) by being publically, fundamentally wrong in a discussion and subject to ridicule. I have had a high need to be understood completely when I engage and left strictly alone when I do not. ALL of these arose from a lifetime of trying to control how people relate to me and that's mostly due to GD - something that was only apparent to me later as many of them resolved.

Put the above against the circumstances: I was in the midst of an emotional and psychological crisis. Despite being well-read and informed, maybe even unusually so, I was, in fact, ignorant on many topics. I was psychologically unready to comprehend or even address the experiential aspects of advice here, which are critical. I was already suicidal. Even considering posting not only spiked my anxiety through the roof, it felt like putting my hand on a ticking bomb.

The problem - the FEAR - was ME. MY demons. I think this is what Misty is talking about in bringing up the problems of the closeted. It's less about being out physically (though that's closely related) than what being closeted does to you. As I've addressed that, my ability to deal with group dynamics has improved, too. Stuff still happens, but it no longer sends me spinning off into the void. As Misty put it, I'm comfortable here.

So maybe a better question is, what are your demons? Not what triggers you, but why it does so strongly?

[arbon]

when I came here in 2009 I was not in a good place. I was confused, shaken by having accidently outed myself, scared of where my life was going as a result, and in total emotional melt down.
Women here seemed mean! I got into a lot of arguments!
but it was really my own insecurities, issues, confusion, fear, and everything.

funny I came to this site because it was a crossdressers site and I wanted to learn to enjoy my crossdressing, hoping if I could accept that about myself and incorporate it into my life better it would take the pressure off. but I could not really relate or fit in with the crossdressers and gravitated to this section pretty quickly. crossdressing just was not the thing for me even though that is what I wanted to identify as. But the women in the ts section here I did relate to- it was messed up as on one hand I did not want to relate or be one of them, but on the other I needed them and wanted their acceptance because I did relate so much to them. I needed them but it was easy to be angry and argumentative with them too. I was good at that.

This site has always been my primary support. Pretty pathetic! :) I know!
I drove to Boise a lot for counseling and a support group there a lot in 2010, but other wise it has been this forum as my main place to go.
There are other sites - like Lauras (good for positive you go girls) or susans (every sort of transgender person and I get lost there and could not connect), but here there has always been a small core group of regulars that I could always connect with. Not always nice or saying what people want to hear, but they are women I relate to and respect and look forward to what they have to say. If I have sisters in this world they are here. Even the ones I have argued the most with I feel deeply connected to and respect greatly.

[Angela Campbell]

I too found the ts forum quite intimidating at first. Seems like a whole lifetime ago.

I first came to the site looking for tips on make up, clothing and stuff. I knew that I wasn't a regular cd but much closer to a ts, but I was so afraid of the possibility of anyone finding out, transition was no more than a fantasy to me. I did talk and read in the cd section mostly but I knew very soon that the topics that were discussed there held little interest for me.

Still being unsure of the path i was on, I attempted to ask some questions in the ts section. The answers I got, which by the way are the same things I would say now, scared me, and seemed quite trannier than thou. There were a few on here then that aren't here now who were downright scary. But as I moved forward, I learned a lot. I began seeing some of the girls here differently. Many I looked up to, and some I downright liked. But it took a while, and part of that was learning the language here.

Now it seems so much nicer in here. Looking back, things look a lot different than I perceived at the beginning. I just had to learn what goes well here and what doesn't. I can see why a newbie full of fear about what is happening in their lives can get shellshocked pretty quickly.

Then again, if you are going to transition, you better get tough pretty fast.

[STACY B]

Not me,, I plowed right in and had more post deleted than anyone here who hasn't been Banned,,lol,,, Don't think they didn't chew me up too. Ohhhhhh YEA,,, But hell I was a CD just like everyone else that came here and wanted to dress up and play girl for a while. But I also was so deep in the closet that no daylite would or could come in.

But after I shut up an listen for a while and the REAL KICKER for me was seeking professional therapy, And for the simple fact I could never go out and dress and feel right. I always felt like I was lying to everyone because those weren't my Boobs,, Or my hair,, Or my Butt from the pads,, I always thought that the more girl stuff you put on and makeup the more you would or could become a woman. No No No,,, Felt like a fraud , Fake, Foney , I knew I needed permanent change,, And all the clothes ,, Shoes,, Makeup,, In the world couldn't fix me,, An for the simple fact of all these girls here no matter how far along you are or will be the reason a lot of these chix tell you stuff to deter you from making a big mistake is there were a lot of people came here and left never to return after making a Mistake and thinking they could do something they really couldn't do.

Most people that come here don't realize that when you start this you have to TELL alot of people your TRANS,, An not all of them understand it,, Doctors, Therapist,, Pharmacist , On On,,, So you gotta be ready to bare your soul Over and Over Dam near for ever to Ride this Train,, It NEVER STOPS,, NEVER!!

[Rachel Smith]

When I first came here all I did was read, then I read more. I thought I owed it to the others here to not come here stupid, naive perhaps but not stupid. So I read and absorbed all I could. Old posts, new posts it didn't matter. When I finally did post it was usually in the form of a question but I was never afraid to post or ask something. Now my fear rests in my thoughts being wrong or perhaps I just don't express myself clearly.

[Badtranny]

wow these are all really great posts.

Arbon, that was beautiful. I agree with so much of what you said.

LeaP, I hope you didn't break a toe with that mic drop.

[Marcelle]

Hi Lea,

Fear . . . an interesting concept for certain. I have felt fear both in my work and life over the years but none of that prepared me for the fear I faced in accepting who I am or at least was meant to be. Before coming to this site two years ago, I was deeply closeted and not in the typical sense of dressing in private, telling no one and then putting it away. My closet was my mind which was locked in a continuous struggle to suppress this side of me in the trappings of an uber masculine façade which saw me transcend into the depths resentment, hate, self-loathing, meanness and just an all around D-Bag. However, all the emotional strain will eventually break and it did two years ago when I entered a very dark place and a complete emotional breakdown. It was then I opened the window a bit and admitted to myself and my wife that I wanted to dress in women's clothing (at least that is where it started). So I came to this site and saw for the first time I was not alone and embraced that . . . I mean I just wanted to dress like a woman, right? So I stayed on the CD side, gaining courage, experimenting, reporting, posting and the TS side well . . . not for me as that was about transition, HRT and surgery . . . I just wanted to dress like a woman, right? Two years later and what some may see as a whirlwind tour of self discovery I realized it was not about the clothes . . . it was about being who I needed to be . . . a woman.

So after I came out at work, I began to read the TS forum and there was fear. Not fear of people who posted but fear that I was taking another step into the unknown and in reading the posts that unknown seemed like a scary place. I was also afraid that some would not see me a legit . . . after all I am not seeking HRT or surgery nor have I effected a legal change. I just know I need to live as a woman and my body, genetic birth marker and name does not define who I am . . . I do. So I posted my first tenuous post and while some responses seemed a bit dismissive (not in a mean spirited sense) most were congenial. I got a smack down or two in a few posts but through PMs and responses, I think I have found my stride. While I cannot relate to everyone here I have found a kindred community of sorts which resonates more with me than the CD side of the house as we all really want the same thing . . . to be authentic in a manner which brings us joy. It is this which has abated my fear of this site helped to quell some of the fear I feel in my daily life . . . not all but it is getting better :)

So, I consider myself a distant cousin of sorts who has pulled up a chair at the family picnic and hopefully nobody will see me as that "crazy cat lady cousin" but someone who is just looking for kinship.

Cheers

Marcelle

[LeaP]

mic drop???

[becky77]

I'm not sure why I came to the forum originally, I guess I knew something was taking hold of me and I was testing the waters.

It wasn't long before I gravitated to the TS section but initially I felt unsure of my place here, I didn't like some of the responses and really that was a reflection of where I was at, not what was being said.
Seemed harsh at first but I stood my ground, I remember saying it was intimidating posting here and people PMed me in support. I said I had PMs from people too scared to post because of the atmosphere and I was proper called out on it, by Kaitlyn lol.

When you transition you understand why people answer how they do, there is no room for fantasy or ideals, transition gets rough quickly and thanks to many no nonsense straight down the line responses on here, I had an idea what to face.
I'm pretty sure if I reread some of my earlier posts I would cringe and irritate myself.

When you transition, when you step over that line and tell the world all your secrets and you are stripped bare and vulnerable, it changes you irrevocably. You see things so differently that you wouldn't even be able to agree with your previous self.
That's the bit people don't get, that's the point where it becomes them and us. It's inevitable and probably why some of us would like a Transitioners only section on here.

I had fear of posting here initially but I pushed past it because my need was greater.

[Badtranny]

man, I am loving this new trend of honesty and openness. LOVING it.

Some of these posts lately are so damn raw and real. If we keep putting out this kind of quality, this forum will basically be like a doctoral dissertation on the emotional aspects of transition.

[GirlieAmanda]

I like to think of this section as an island of reality in a sea of fantasy. But this island rocks.

[arbon]

You see things so differently that you wouldn't even be able to agree with your previous self.

So true...

[LeaP]

... Now my fear rests in my thoughts being wrong or perhaps I just don't express myself clearly.

I breezed over this comment at first, but found myself returning to it several times. There may be implications for some of the forum's reactivity in this. The reality and truth focus of this section, coupled with many people drilling OPs and responses on meaning, puts a real premium on clear writing. Misunderstanding can lead to getting hammered.

Sometimes the best posts are simple experience. Those are usually clear in their own right, where conceptual content begs yet more analysis and challenge ... increasing the intimidation and fear for some.

... of course, that requires *actual* experience.

[Dana44]

I read this thread several times. As a cross dresser, we want to know what all options are and this site can be hard to navigate though all of the diversity here. I accidentally went into the TS section and was amazed at the threads i read with wonder. But I have to say that it is important that information is shared and we have our own demons to interact with. Most of us are still finding ourselves and don't quite understand where the road leads. All of your inputs and information that you put out are relevant to us. We do associate with you and have on many times responded with our thoughts. Some of those thoughts I know sounded strange to you also. But we are also real and we all love women as well as ourselves. We all share the same fears going out en-femme and well we are a woman operating in that same environment. It's very real. Our demons are internal to us and we try to put our thoughts down to find solutions. So don't abandon us.

[Heather25]

mic drop???

I'm going to say that Melissa was referring to something like this - http://youtu.be/z-m3BcdsI2I

You made an emphatic statement and said your piece! I thought it was a fantastic and well thought out statement. (As you posts always are!)

In the interest of full disclosure and honesty, I am still trying to work all this out and figure out my own identity. My main stumbling block is my marriage, and it is also an excuse. Reading what this forum has to offer has been hugely educational. Perhaps in the future I'll have more to contribute.

For now, all I have is thanks for those who are living reality and sharing their triumphs as well as heartbreaks.

[LeaP]

Dana, understand this thread in context. That includes the transsexual-specific nature of this section as well as the thread's narrow participation fear focus. I.e., we're not talking (in this thread) about being out.

ANY member is free to post in the TS section. This thread is unrestricted. If there is something that makes you afraid to post in the TS section, despite the fact you are not TS, that's fair game. CD's aren't being abandoned - in fact, I'd like to know what makes them so afraid to post here. Mind you, that doesn't obviate the need to post appropriately, that topics be transsexual-specific, that advice and support for CDs as CDs isn't appropriate here, and that non-TS are well-advised to use some restraint on offering opinions on things they don't experience. But this is advice from the rules and from common sense.

My OP approaches fear as an internal issue. If I try reading between the lines of your response along the lines of the OP, I would conclude that the fear you're expressing (not sure if it's personal or a proxy for CDs generally) is that you are afraid because you are different. You propose dealing with that by stressing what you see as commonalities.

My response to that is to be more realistic about the commonalities. I don't want to get into the details in this thread, but as an example, I agree with your statement about CDs and TS both operating as women when out only in a very narrow sense. The differences are not trivial or merely definitional.

But let me give you an example of what I think is a useful CD contribution on a typical TS concern that is related to being out. It can be as simple as being gendered male because of beard shadow. A transsexual is typically going to take on some kind of permanent hair removal - but may not be able to do so yet. Most CDs who go out (let's ignore the bearded ladies here) deal with cover-up all the time. If a TS posts about a problem covering the shadow because, say, she has a particular skin type or condition, make-up sensitivity, or whatever - and a CD member has a solution, terrific - post away. But PLEASE don't opine that it's just as good as hair removal, that you look better than most women, or that your needs are exactly the same. I guarantee you that they are not.

If a CD is afraid to post on a topic (or narrow point of commonality) like the above, there really is a problem with tone of the forum or perhaps within the member afraid to post. I think you're suggesting that topics themselves are broadly applicable, though, that thread purposes can be combined to address the needs of both CD and TS members. I'd leave the final interpretation to the mods, but would offer my opinion that a fundamental reason why there are separate CD and TS sections is so there IS a separation of needs and advice. Again, the commonalities are not as great as often supposed.

Here's a slightly wacky analogy. I happen to know a lot about industrial sewing machinery. The brands, manufacturers, patents, customization, uses and issues of certain machine types, and so on. I can get into the weeds on parts, materials, lubrication design, power issues, configuration pros and cons and a zillion other things. I know enough that I've had factory reps and supplier companies tell me that I know more than they do. Given all that, would I join and follow a forum for sewn product manufacturing engineering? YOU BET! Fascinating (really!). Would I chime in on most discussions? NOT IN A MILLION YEARS. As much as I know, I'm neither an engineer nor work in the sewn products industry. Were I to jump in, I'd land in the fire as often as the frying pan, and I'd never know which it was going to be until my feet arrived. AT BEST, I would keep my comments narrowly targeted and to THEIR interests, not mine. On that last, they aren't interested. Not that they might not be perfectly willing to help out with, say, a problem I'm having, but not THERE.

So my question to you is still as per the OP: if you are literally afraid to post in this section, is there something specific to you that's behind the fear?

[Rianna Humble]

This forum is open for all to post in, but not all replies are appropriate.

If an inappropriate reply is given, it will normally be challenged by regular posters in this section. Provided that this is done without personal attacks and does not derail the thread, then that is normal forum behaviour.

This forum is not open for members to bash the moderators. If you have a problem with the way that the forum is being moderated, the rules will tell you what steps to take.