Public Restroom

[MissBritney]

Hi ladies, im new to cd... well is something that i have always wanted to explore more. As I become more brave in deessing up, im still in thr closet and of course my wife doesnt know and i like to keep it that way. But my questions is when you guys are out and about and need to use the restrooms which one do you use? Thanks for reading

[LaSirenaBella]

For me (and for most, if not many), it's not a big deal. If I present femme, women's room. Otherwise, men's room. Of course, it's easier if there is a gender-neutral option. Oftentimes, those who are a little more hesitant will find a "family" restroom.

And act like you belong there.

Sirena

[Angela Marie]

Always the ladies room when out dressed. I was nervous at first. Now it's second nature.

[heatherdress]

There are very strong feelings on this site that we should be able to pee anywhere - but I have heard GG women, who are otherwise very support of crossdressers, express very strong feelings against CDs using a woman's rest room. I have seen GGS very upset because they feel that men wearing high heels, skirts and makeup, regardless of how good they look, are still men - and don't belong in their rest room. At a few CD functions, some women were deeply upset because, even though the crossdressers who used the ladies room looked great, felt they "passed", and behaved carefully, they were still recognized as males.

At crossdressers' events, GG spouses were quite upset about rest room policies and felt disrespected. I have always felt that this should not be a big deal, but I have seen how upsetting use of a rest room can be.

This is more difficult than simply acting like we belong in a women's rest room. Use of the men's room when we are dressed is also quite difficult and can even be dangerous. I don't feel real good about either option and usually think try to limit drinking when dressed, avoid using male or female public rest rooms if possible, try to be conscious of occupancy, try to use vacant rest rooms, try to be as quick as possible, and accept negative reactions without taking offense if they occur. I just try to be sensitive, aware and careful when I have to pee.

[sara.rafaela]

Ladies room, and I do not give it a second thought.

[ptp009]

Hi Miss Britney,

When dressed I use the ladies room, but what you can do by starting up is going to a Dunkin Donuts where they have a singe men or women's room and you can go in private. Also alot of malls have a handicap / family restroom it's neutral you can use that. When I first dressed out I would scout out the areas I would travel in and check the rooms as a male to remember when I needed to stop.

[Robin414]

I too have heard it said, use the facility that represents how you're presenting. Yah, easy to say if you have the 'golden hall PASS' I suppose 😕

[Laurana]

I haven't run into that situation yet but I have pondered on it. I've only really been to one place fully dressed and I kept thinking about which one to use if I had to go. I was too nervous to use either so I just sipped my water with dinner and prayed that I'd make it the 50 miles home before having to go. Sure, I could stop at a rest stop since we were on the highway but then that would mean making that decision.

I guess when the time comes I'll just close my eyes and pick a door :)

[heatherdress]

I can understand the most popular response will be, without hesitation, to use the ladies room. I just want to offer that even though we feel it is OK, that it is almost a right to use the rest room we want to, we may be diminishing support and acceptance and may threaten women unless we are sensitive and careful. My wife, who is 110% supportive and very open-minded, has frequently articulated her resentment that men feel it is OK to invade the women's rest room.

[MissBritney]

Thanks, a lot of good info here for a newly cd that is yet to make a public outing. I just dont think is as easy as everybody says it is. A lot of places have those single restrooms for either male or female. I dont think I'm passable at all or dont have the confidance yet...I'm glad i joined this forum

[AllieSF]

When presenting as a woman, I always use the women's restroom. heatherdress, I have no idea where you live and go out, but you seem to have mostly negative experiences. That has to be extremely bad luck. I have only known two people, friends, who have had problems, one (TS) in a small casino outside of Las Vegas, and she attributed that to the regular hookers there that would occasionally make negative comments about her. The other was in Berkeley, CA where one would really expect a lot of extra tolerance. Otherwise with my close to 500 outings, I have never had a negative experience. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and tolerance can be expected. However, reading all the various posts on this site over the last 8 years, negative reactions for the crown are extremely rare, as in, almost never.

Good luck in your growth as the new you.

[Eryn]

Use the one for your presentation.

Get in, do your business, wash up, get out.

Hold your head up and behave like you belong there, because you do.

Pay attention to Persephone's Bathroom Rule: Never speak if you cannot be seen unless your femme voice is perfect.

Some women socialize in the restroom, but they usually know each other so you needn't join in.

[pamela7]

this discussion's been around a few times, mostly divisively and argumentatively, as there are two camps. I sit in the "go to the restroom of your physical gender" camp. Unless you are a TS living as a woman and therefore having to follow precisely all aspects on your journey, then ur still a man, albeit dressed as a woman, so respect the women's privacy. I don't agree that its right for a CD'er to use a female restroom. However, most will disagree with me.

[MissBritney]

I don't mean to create fight theough this discussion, i was just curious as to what choice do we as cd make. That's all

[pamela7]

welcome Miss Britney, I see that, it's okay, just this is a core thing for many here, and so expect some strong views. you have to make up your own mind as to what you choose, as there is no right answer.

[Victoria Demeanor]

Several years ago, I was on the island of Saipan in the pacific. We had gone down to a local bar which was really just a shack build on dock out in the mangroves. After a couple of ales I need to relieve my bladder and was told the rest room was a building at the end of the pier. Okay it was a concrete building and I walked in and found it was just an open, three wall structure. No toilets, sinks, lights, stalls, just three walls and opened facing the lagoon. I caught on quick and stepped up to the edge of the floor, unzipped and went. As I stood there relieving myself of my recent investment I heard the soft sweet, unmistakable voice of a woman behind me. "do you mind" she said. It was the bar maid and of course I said no not at all. She stepped up, knelled down, lifted her skirt and went. Oddly it wasn't awkward, we both did what was needed and went back to our night. I guess my point is in our more "civilized" nations, with all our amenities, toilets with privacy stalls, people still get so frigging up tight about this.
This is a hot topic Miss Britney and would suggest going with ptp009 suggestion. Sometimes the better part of valor is avoiding the fight. Check the laws in your area, get a feeling of the attitudes and see what the acceptance level is. above all be safe. Just my two cents.

[Lauri K]

Ladies room or family restroom if presenting as female.

Even when presenting 50/50 I have been told by one or two GG ladies that I should use the women's room and not the men's. (for my own safety)

Their point was that most women will not beat you up for being in their even if they are not welcoming, however a group of hater or bigots in the men's room could ensue into a brawl.

Anyhow you have to use some judgement is my point.............

[ChristinaK]

I've been to numerous women's restrooms from bars to rest stops. Never had a problem. Have even fixed my lipstick next to a gg.

Just this week I have frequented male restrooms with female hair (mine is long) wearing women's attire (crew neck sweaters, women's polos and jeans). The looks I have received from men are very discerning and uncomfortable. I think men are much more homophobic than women. That alone makes me pick the women's restroom.

Not too many women can kick my ass, but the mob mentality may prevail in the men's restroom which would quickly overpower mmy military training and actual combat experience. So, I defer to the least hostile environment. Should the police become involved, I'm a transsexual which should confuse the situation enough for a successful escape and evasion. Just my thoughts and experience.

Good luck and Godspeed.

[Eryn]

Their point was that most women will not beat you up for being in their even if they are not welcoming, however a group of hater or bigots in the men's room could ensue into a brawl.

^^^That^^^

If you're dressed as female and go into the women's room nobody knows for sure if you are TG or simply a masculine-looking woman.
If you're dressed as female and go into the men's room everyone knows that you're TG.

Be safe.

That said, I've used hundreds of ladies rooms and, at 6'2", I stand out. I have never had anyone say a single negative thing to me or in my earshot.

[Jolynne Wynn]

Wow! I never really thought about this situation at all. Never gone out as femme and was planning on it, as soon as I get the courage and confidence. Thank you all for posting up your experiences and opinions on this subject. I will now have something to think about when I do go out in public. And will definitely take the safer route.

[Tracii G]

If I am in all girl mode the ladies room 50/50 mode the mens room.
It would be stupid to go in the mens room dressed enfemme now wouldn't it?
I use the unisex or family restrooms if the place has one just for fact you aren't actually offending anyone by using it.

[Sarasometimes]

I know nearly all free standing Starbucks have single seater women's rooms which is my first choice if not ladies room but get in then get out. I don't know if i have the nerve to use a ladies room if there is a line. Anyone have insight, do you talk to each other, yikes. Unisex makes this a non issue!

[paulaprimo]

i'm so confident about going into the ladies that i've caught
myself several times almost walking into one in male mode... :)

[Nadine Spirit]

My wife, who is 110% supportive and very open-minded, has frequently articulated her resentment that men feel it is OK to invade the women's rest room.

Hmm... Is it just me or is there something incongruous about this statement?

MissBritney -
While fully dressed I always use the ladies room. I generally do not converse unless necessary while in there. I have been going out for about ten years now and have used the ladies in about 5 or 6 different states from California to Wisconsin and have never had a single problem.

Anything less than full feminine appearance and I use the men's room.

Oh and something else to be said as well - in all of the restrooms I have been in, male or female, I have never seen anything that woukd be considered "private." Because you know, toilet areas have stall doors at least. And people aren't parading around naked just cause its a bathroom.

Oh and another thing, the nastiest restroom I have ever been in was a ladies room in Chicago O'Hare where someone left some "number 2" on th floor and I stepped in it!!! Of course I warned the next lady in line before removing my shoe and cleaning it at the sink! Um nasty! Why woukd anyone do that?

[Robin414]

i'm so confident about going into the ladies that i've caught
myself several times almost walking into one in male mode... :)

OK, you've achieved the the ZEN of the forest! Peeing behind the foliage of womanhood 😀

[DanaR]

I will use the ladies room. Years ago, I was at a trangendered convention and there was a function held at the Moose Hall. We were told that we couldn't use the ladies room, but had to use the men's room. While I was visiting and socializing with some of the members from the Moose Lodge, I mentioned to the lady I was talking to, that I would be leaving in a while. She then asked me why I was going to leave so early, I told her that I would need to use the rest room in a while and didn't feel comfortable in the men's room dressed as I was, if fact I asked her if she would feel comfortable going into the men's room dressed as I was; which she agreed with me that she wouldn't want to either. As it turned out, she was the person that set the policy and then announced that it was okay for us to use the ladies room. I think that it depends on how you act; which will determine the reaction you get in a lot of areas.

[Nancy Sue]

I was taught (by some regular posters here) to always use the restroom you present in. Period. Here's an example:

While driving back north after my most recent trip to LA/OC (several months ago), I was fully dressed, and used the ladies room several places over two days. I also checked into my hotel fully dressed. Nobody batted and eye. When I stopped at one state rest stop, there happened to be a state police car already there. 'What do I do now?', I wondered. 'If I looked, saw his car (or they think I did), then left, it would look like I was leaving because of him, and there might be a call to someone up the road to search my car for drugs or something illegal.'

So I parked, fussed with my purse for a while while i scoped out what was going on (nothing I could see),got out, and as I was heading for the restrooms he was on the same sidewalk walking toward me. We greeted each other, he slowed, asked where I was from, and we had a short chat. He was courteous and respectful.
Then he asked which which restroom I intended to use? Well, I intended to use the women's, and had been told that was the correct, legal thing to do in California, but since my license plate was from a different state I said "The men's".
He said "Don't do that. There are men that do not like you women, and would beat you up. Use the women's."

I said "thank you officer" and headed in.

[s.e.al]

Britney thankyou for asking because I've been wondering the same thing.

[Cheryl_Layton]

To those that advocate using the men’s room whilst en-femme, have you actually done this? What was your experience?

I think the majority viewpoint is to go with how you present. I’ve used the women’s rest room and even washed my hands and re-applied lippy next to a GG with no problems at all.

[Demi88]

Officers sometimes give advise that contradicts law. Their advise may be safer but illegal. They are not knowledgeable of every current law. Even lawyers don't know all the laws. I would use the restroom that is permitted by local law if I could find out what the law is. If the law is grey I don't know what to recommend. What if a restroom women is offended then grabs an officer to question and possibly arrest you. That wouldn't be fun. Especially if your mug may makes the local news before you get a chance to powder your nose:)

On second thought. Odds are you'll be fine regardless of your decision. I've been known to worry too much.

[Rhonda Darling]

I can understand the most popular response will be, without hesitation, to use the ladies room. I just want to offer that even though we feel it is OK, that it is almost a right to use the rest room we want to, we may be diminishing support and acceptance and may threaten women unless we are sensitive and careful. My wife, who is 110% supportive and very open-minded, has frequently articulated her resentment that men feel it is OK to invade the women's rest room.

I, too, have heard from my SO that us using the ladies restroom is disconcerting and some women vehemently object, especially is children are present. The latter fear no doubt arises from the common misconception that we're all perverts and child molesters. I always point out when this discussion comes up that I've been to many many sporting events and concerts where women have walked right into the men's restroom, gone into a stall, done their business, and walked out -- usually under the explanation that the line at the ladies room was too long and they HAD to go. That comment is usually met with a blank stare and a "so what?" response. Here we have slammed head-on into the female prerogative.

My my advice here is, know both the law and the usual police response to complaints about us in your area, have restroom situational awareness, be realistic about whether or not you pass, be careful, don't talk from the stall (your voice - even if it works when people can see you - will likely give you away if you and your femme presentation are out of sight) and most importantly, keep feet pointed in the right direction and together - no man spread in the stall - do your business, wash up!!, and leave.

YMMD (your mileage may differ)

Oh, remember that a momma bear will do anything to protect her cubs -- including claiming imagined facts if the police are called.

Rhonda

- - - Updated - - -


Thanks, a lot of good info here for a newly cd that is yet to make a public outing. I just dont think is as easy as everybody says it is. A lot of places have those single restrooms for either male or female. I dont think I'm passable at all or dont have the confidance yet...I'm glad i joined this forum

If it's a single restroom, regardless of how the sign reads, no problem as there won't be any women or kinds in there with you to complain about you.

[Angela Marie]

As I posted before I always use the women's room when dressed and never have had a problem. On the other hand I can't imagine using the mens room when en femme. I would imagine the the reaction doing that would be bad.

[Demi88]

Oh, remember that a momma bear will do anything to protect her cubs -- including claiming imagined facts if the police are called.

Rhonda



I agree.

Not likely. Probably highly unlikely. Like getting lightning struck. Stranger things have happened. Could be bad if two momma bear's word against one you.

[jenniferinsf]

damn, this is confusing...what is the law, what to others think, what do others do, what does your wife want you to do for your own safety, the quality and location of the restroom.

i have used both dressed en femme. never a problem with the women's but like other said, it only takes one woman to cry wolf and although i have never been accosted or threatened in the mens, i have always been aware that i can cause quite a stir and a few surprised double takes.

my experience asking police for advice is they really don't know

my approach....be confident get in and get out...no dawdling, fix your makeup with you purse mirror in public

[Katey888]

@jenniferinsf - Yes, it can be confusing, not least because we are all in different legal jurisdictions here (UK, USA, Aus, NZ, SA, to name just a few of the English speaking zones) so members, please be aware of the legal differences when offering advice... :)

In the USA there is clearly already a lot of legislation related to this and it changes often with State legislation - but there are also resources on the web that attempt to give us pointers depending on where you are located (see: https://safe2pee.wordpress.com/bathroom-resources/, http://www.findfamilyrestroom.com/index.html and http://www.refugerestrooms.org/ for examples). Many of these are crowdsourced/ wiki-type resources so you can contribute as well as benefit from others experiences of actual locations.

In the UK, the distinction of male and female public conveniences (such a quaint term... :)) is advisory only. The same laws apply to these spaces as all public areas and serve to protect individuals as much as possible without being completely prescriptive about who can use them. This leaves it open for valid emergencies and are legally trans-friendly without additional legislation. So in the UK - using as presenting would be the first choice, but I have heard of folk happily use their birth-gender space too. A unisex or disabled facility might be a good option too (and before someone castigates me about using the disabled facilities anywhere, the same guidelines apply here - they are advisory, not prohibitive... :))

Katey x

[AngelaYVR]

Consider it from a slightly different angle: there is always someone who delights in making a fuss. The self proclaimed protectors of all that is right who will think nothing of fetching security or calling the police. You know the type. Not a confrontation I want to have until I know the law is no longer fuzzy on this issue.

I will use the ladies if I know it's empty or is at least devoid of children. This week I was about to enter at the same time as a woman, I quickly asked her if she minded (she didn't).

My first choice is coffee shops as they are usually single stall.

[char GG]

Just to clarify - I really don't care if CDers use the ladies restroom. That said, I witnessed a nasty incident a year ago (at Halloween) where a CD man cut in line in the ladies room (the details are in a previous post) and proceeded to get his a** chewed by five ladies that he cut in front of. Not only did they read him the riot act in the restroom but proceeded outside of the restroom to go from table to table pointing him out! I don't know if he was too drunk to notice but he ended up being a laughing stock that night.

So, if you use the ladies room, follow the rules. Get in, do you business, get out. Many times there are ladies fixing their underwear, tights, or whatever - don't stare! Don't go in if there is a mom with little girls in there. (If you want to meet mother bear - try it!) Don't have your phone visible.

If a single restroom is available, it may be wise to use that one.

Most people have no problems, just be aware of your surroundings.

[Veronica27]

Hmm... Is it just me or is there something incongruous about this statement?



There is, but the only incongruity is the exaggerating of the percentage of support being 110%. Perhaps she should have said 99.9% .

My wife is fairly understanding of my desire to crossdress, but she has expressed her discomfort over the washroom issue. At a CD event we attended a few years ago, our group of about 15 crossdressers and several of our spouses shared a busy restaurant with a crowd of their other patrons. My wife felt the call of nature, and without thinking about this issue, went to the ladies room which at the time was empty. When she left the room, one of our group of CD's was waiting outside the door for her to finish. Knowing she was already in there, he respected what he assumed would be her wish to not share the facility with a "man". Also, by waiting outside, he was letting any other female customers have an opportunity to notice that he would be using the facilities.

Later, my wife mentioned the incident to me and was thankful for his consideration, as she felt uncomfortable at the thought of sharing the facilities at the same time with someone she knew was physically male. There is no easy explanation for these feelings other than a lifetime of social conditioning. There are certainly cultures around the world where such bodily functions are more open and even nudity is commonplace. However, these people have been raised in such an environment and take it for granted. But in the western world, we are raised to expect a degree of privacy in our most intimate moments, such as using washrooms, visiting the doctor, trying on clothing and so on. In some situations this means total privacy, while in others it means same sex privacy. We cannot change a lifetime of such social conditioning by a simple edict. It must evolve.

Veronica

[samantha rogers]

I'm a woman. I use the women's restroom. No one has ever said a word or batted an eye.

[MissBritney]

Britney thankyou for asking because I've been wondering the same thing.

You are welcome and I must say that i feel very feminine when im called Britney.

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, advices and point of views, is much appreciated. I have not gone out in public as Britney but when I do, you guys will be the first to know.

[Eryn]

...My wife, who is 110% supportive and very open-minded, has frequently articulated her resentment that men feel it is OK to invade the women's rest room.

Three points:

1. I'm not "invading" anything. I'm using a public facility as it was intended to be used.

2. I am, according to the laws of my state, free to use the facilities in which I am most comfortable.

3. GGs often "invade" facilities not congruent with their assigned-at-birth gender when they find ladies room lines inconveniently long. Everyone is expected to accept this as normal and of course it is.

Live and let live.

[Dana44]

LOL, today I was en fem driving home and we stopped at a MacDonalds to relieve ourselves. I went into the ladies room with my SO and got into a stall and everything was alright, we left and got back into the truck and while driving she asked me. "Did you feel self conscious in using the ladies room? I said No I didn't why?
She said that it shocked her as she is used to me always going to the mens room. I said, dressed like this. It would be stupid to go in the mens room don't you think.
She said, yes it would. I was just caught off guard. You have used them before.

[donnalee]

It's very simple. This is a safety issue. Better to be upbraided by some women than get the crap beat out of you by rednecks. 'Nuff Said.

[heatherdress]

I have never had anyone say a single negative thing to me or in my earshot.

Eryn - I agree with your comments but just because a woman has never said anything to you does not mean you did not offend her or scare her or anger her. How many women are going to confront a 6 ft 2 inch male dressed as a woman when they are alone in a rest room?

I grow tired of our bath room threads and believe for safety, we really need to use women's rest rooms, but I do feel by doing so as crossdressers we are sort of bathroom bullies.

- - - Updated - - -


Three points:

1. I'm not "invading" anything. I'm using a public facility as it was intended to be used.

2. I am, according to the laws of my state, free to use the facilities in which I am most comfortable.

3. GGs often "invade" facilities not congruent with their assigned-at-birth gender when they find ladies room lines inconveniently long. Everyone is expected to accept this as normal and of course it is.

Live and let live.

Would you feel the same if your 7 year old daughter was using the women's rest room when you walked in? I think there is more sensitivity and judgment needed than you suggest.

[Eryn]

Eryn - I agree with your comments but just because a woman has never said anything to you does not mean you did not offend her or scare her or anger her. How many women are going to confront a 6 ft 2 inch male dressed as a woman when they are alone in a rest room?

I've never "confronted" a woman in a rest room, let alone scared or angered one. Most women take no notice of me at all as they have business of their own. If there is another woman in a restroom I do just what any GG would, move to an empty stall and do my business.


Would you feel the same if your 7 year old daughter was using the women's rest room when you walked in? I think there is more sensitivity and judgment needed than you suggest.

I have two daughters, both well beyond the age of seven. I've gone to the women's restroom with both of them. Just like every other time, I've not seen them in a state of undress and they have not seen me. That's why restrooms are equipped with separate stalls with doors.

Frankly, I don't see an issue. If my daughters were still seven I wouldn't mind at all if a CDer shared a restroom with them, because I know that being TG does not mean that we are predators or perverts. In fact, I would trust TG people far more than I would trust the general population because we are generally polite and respectful of others.

It is very disturbing that one of our own would perpetuate this sort of myth. I've never seen any instance of a transgender person harming a woman or child in a restroom and I challenge anyone to provide an example.

[AllieSF]

Heather, what sort of bathroom bullies are you talking about? Here in California it is the law. You have the right to use the restroom facilities corresponding to how you are presenting. No one bullying no one, just clear words, at least here in California and a few other enlightened States. I would say the bullies, or those trying to bully and scare others are those opposed to these laws. I don't think that anyone here has ever given any proof that a normal transgender person, including CD's under that spectrum umbrella, have ever been convicted of doing something inappropriate in the women's restroom.

The key words maybe for you are "can use". If one does not want to use them, they can use the other one and take their chances there. There are a lot of rules and laws out there that may not please some of us. I personally do not like that someone can burn the US Flag. I don't like it but the law as upheld in the Supreme Court says that you can as part of one's constitutional right of freedom of speech. Therefore, I never complain about it except in discussion such as this, I just live with it.

The vast majority of us here who actually go out into the real world specifically use the women's restroom when we are dressed as women. There is only a small minority that do not. That is their choice. I too get tired of these threads sometimes, but when there is a vocal minority then I believe that our old male habits come back to defend what one of us have said and sometimes even to get in that precious last word causing these type of threads to come back every so often to open up the same old conversation and points of view. When someone asks which one to use, the majority of us will respond as we have done here, and so will those opposed to it. Thus the cycle continues.

I honestly do respect other's rights to do as they please as long as it is legal. However, in this case I personally will use the women's rooms and not just in California. I have responded a second time here because of your calling us "sort of bullies". That didn't and doesn't set well with me. Yes, I would still use the women's restroom if my or anyone else's 7 year old daughter was in there, and I have done so. By not doing so we are giving more power to those that do not like us even existing.

We here in the USA tend to be overly puritanical and afraid to talk about sex and the human body. A lot think all that stuff is very dirty and should be hidden away. We also incorrectly believe that our way is the best and only correct way, which if one reads a lot and travels outside of our wonderful country they would quickly see that we tend to be way overly conservative regarding these topics when compared to other cultures. We need to loosen up and take the shame out of being human.

[Candice June Lee]

I still sit on the fence personally. I do feel we should use the room of our presentation. However in the mid south, there is still alot of people here that don't feel comfy with "us". So i try to go in with my wife or other gg friends. Sometimes with my cd friends if we all have to go. Saturday night we were at a club with multi stall restrooms. And i saw obvious guys going into the womens restroom. So i really didn't want to in there. My friend and i went together and checked for emptiness. Did our business and washed then left.
For me it's a bit nerve racking to use the restroom publicly no matter how i present. But the advise about guys beating up TG and and such in the restroom may be pretty sound. Women most likely will not beat you up physically. I do fear of that in the men's room while presenting. I do worry about it if i am not presenting as well because men are just that way.
The best defense is to not offend usually.

[Lexi Moralas]

If there is a gender neutral option I will choose it , other wise ladies room. Never had an issue.

[Katey888]

I still sit on the fence personally.

:eek:

I guess that's one way of avoiding the restroom entirely.... and I thought you were all so civilised in the South... ;)

Katey x

[Krisi]

I'm a woman. I use the women's restroom. No one has ever said a word or batted an eye.

I don't think the question was about women using the women's rest room, it was about crossdressers using the women's restroom.

This subject comes up every month or two and much like in this thread, there is a lot of anecdotal experience posted, but no real answers or agreement.

The safest thing is to find a unisex single stall restroom or a "family" restroom. Anything else could find you in trouble, either with the law or with other members of the public. Like it or not, that's reality.

[Belle De Mer]

I agree completely - I have used the ladies room many times, but always very discreetly, so as not to confront any of the GG's who are using it as well. I actually have alot of empathy for ladies who have not had much trans exposure, and are suddenly confronted by the sight of a CD in the restroom

[Leslie Langford]

Just to clarify - I really don't care if CDers use the ladies restroom. That said, I witnessed a nasty incident a year ago (at Halloween) where a CD man cut in line in the ladies room (the details are in a previous post) and proceeded to get his a** chewed by five ladies that he cut in front of. Not only did they read him the riot act in the restroom but proceeded outside of the restroom to go from table to table pointing him out! I don't know if he was too drunk to notice but he ended up being a laughing stock that night.

So, if you use the ladies room, follow the rules. Get in, do you business, get out. Many times there are ladies fixing their underwear, tights, or whatever - don't stare! Don't go in if there is a mom with little girls in there. (If you want to meet mother bear - try it!) Don't have your phone visible.

If a single restroom is available, it may be wise to use that one.

Most people have no problems, just be aware of your surroundings.

...speaking of mobile phones, a while back I was out shopping en femme and at one point was in the ladies' room touching up my make up. All of a sudden - and out of the corner of my eye - I noticed a couple of teenage GG's nearby giggling away and taking selfies of each other. Huh???

I realize that for many GG's, using the ladies' room is sometimes a social event and a group activity, but this? Definitely a WTF??? moment for my male side, as that kind of thing is not what one typically sees happening in the men's rooms. Then again, teenage GG's seem to live in a world of their own when it comes to doing their "girls just wanna have fun" thing, and often thrive on flouting convention.

I know that I flew under the radar that day so no worries on that account, but I still wonder if I inadvertently photo-bombed some of those pics just by being in the background. Just one more pitfall to consider when using the women's restrooms...

[Rhonda Jean]

With certainty of angering most, I agree with Heatherdress.

Like everybody else, I've used the ladies room. I mean, really, what else are you going to do? It's a predicament for me, and although I do it, I'm often uncomfortable. The single occupancy ones are a non-issue. I've used them in male mode when I had to, as I've seen women use the men's. If you REALLY pass, as some of you do, then it's a non-issue. If I can't get in and out without being seen it's an issue for me, and I've been doing this long enough that I should be used to it.

I've been told to not use the ladies room on one occasion. There was a fast food place where I'd stop to get a bite to eat and use the restroom when I was out specifically because it was never crowded. There were windows all around and I could tell who was in there before I ever entered. I would use the ladies room on my way out, and had done so several times, never with anybody else in there. I had been to this place a few nights earlier, but this time when I started to the restroom and employee told me that I wasn't allowed to use the ladies room anymore. She said they'd talked to the manager and the manager told them to tell me I wasn't allowed. Of course, I've never been back. It was uncalled for, as there was nobody else in there.

I was at a gay bar once where there was a sign on the bathroom doors, something to the effect of "If you're a male you must use the men's room". Seems like there was a specific reference to CD's, but I don't remember for sure.

The most fear I have of using the restroom I have is when I'm not completely dressed, but not completely typical male. In those cases I use the men's room. I often wear high heel boots, or I have polished toes with flip flops. I almost always carry a purse. Having my polished toes or heels visible under the stall or my purse slung over my shoulder while standing at the urinal scares the crap out of me.

I've peed in a cup in my car many times to avoid using a public restroom. I always try to avoid them. I try to go before I have to. If I'm somewhere that has a family or gender neutral restroom I'll use it before I really need to to avoid getting in a situation where I have to go in a less desirable situation. I go back home or to my hotel room just to use the restroom instead of staying out for hours on end. I can usually avoid public restrooms altogether. It's kind of a priority to me. I've never used the men's room when dressed, though.

I get the impression that using the ladies room is kind of a bucket list thing for some. Or it's an "I use the ladies' room therefore I am" thing. I definitely shouldn't be. It's a sensitive issue for a lot of women, and we'd be well advised to respect that.

[Veronica27]

I find it somewhat ironic that in this era of political correctness and sensitivity training, we can dismiss the sensitivities of others in order to promote what we feel are our own rights. I say this fully aware of the fact that some jurisdictions have legislated that we can use the washrooms of our own choosing. Those lawmakers are also dismissing the sensitivities of others. In an age when we can be fired or charged with harassment for making what some might consider to be a lewd or suggestive remark in the presence of a woman, we can none the less insist on the right to use the female facilities and no one should feel any discomfort whatsoever.

It is a cultural thing. Women in the western world who are middle aged or older have been brought up in a society that segregated the sexes in matters of personal privacy, and allowing men to use the women's washroom can seem like a tremendous invasion of that privacy. This has nothing to do with transphobia or bigotry or fear that we are dangerous perverts. It is simply an instilled belief in what is proper decorum and the polite social graces. Many of the replies by those who regularly use the ladies room, state that they have never encountered any incidents. However, that does not mean that there is not resentment, as the vast majority of people are too polite to cause problems. It could also mean that those CD's are extremely passable, an attribute that many of us could never achieve. Should non-passability be elevated to the status of requiring special legislated protection to enable access to facilities available to some but denied to others because of that inability? Where does it end?

It is also stated by most, that use of the men's facilities is too dangerous when crossdressed. This is a terrible indictment of men, who we must all think of as loutish Neanderthals that cannot be trusted to be civilized, and are prone to physical violence at the slightest provocation. Certainly, there are situations where the men's room can be a dangerous place, but that is the case regardless of what you are wearing. No matter how I am dressed, I try to avoid such places. The same could be said of some women's washrooms, as men do not have a monopoly on boorish behaviour. Those of us who are mostly in the closet are constantly told that it is only are own irrational fear that prevents us from going out. Perhaps it is also that same fear that leads crossdressers to use the women's washroom.

Certainly, those who have transitioned, are in the process of doing so or have chosen to present as female more or less full time should be allowed access to the ladies room. However does that mean all crossdressers should be granted the same privilege, regardless of other factors such as their obvious maleness? Instead of pushing for the right to infringe on the privacy of others, however worthwhile we might consider that to be, perhaps the onus should be on the crossdresser to do his research, and know what type of washrooms will be available before venturing into any public establishment. Also, we should be pushing for more single user washrooms, family restrooms, and even locking outer doors on smaller two or three user facilities. I have seen these in some smaller restaurants and truck stops. I, for one, have no desire to go where my presence is not wanted (if you will pardon the pun).

Veronica

[heatherdress]

I am glad that we have legislation in many places to protect transgender people and their rights, even if it is confusing and upsetting to some. It does foster awareness and progress. I also apologize for pushing this discussion further, but I am driven by a personal passion that might be hard to both explain and understand.

We believe we are tolerant, knowledgeable and caring on this site. Yet there is a subtle but insensitive attitude towards others which is embedded in this simple rest room rights issue. Most responses just look at this issue from their point of view - they, as crossdressers, do not have problems so it is therefore OK. But there seems to be no empathy or understand for the other users who are women.

1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted or abused in their lifetime. If you were sexually assaulted or abused by a man, your life is forever different. You have anxiety, and fears, difficult to explain, the rest of your life. You might be upset, or scared or angry if a man shows up unexpectedly in a room that you felt some sort of personal vulnerability in as well as some sort of protection or isolation - like a rest room they might believe limits use to women only, regardless if there are new laws and progressive attitudes which extend use to men dressed in women's clothes. I am being rather blunt but you do not have to confront a woman in the bathroom to upset her if she has mental issues, or religious beliefs, or personal values which are threatened. You simply have to enter a room she considers her space.

How is impossible to claim to have never upset anyone when using the women's rest room, or caused them fear, just because you you not heard complaints? Those troubled the most would be the last to complain. If you live with anxiety as a former victim or if you love someone who does, you will better understand, but we simply do need to think of the affects of our behavior deeper than making a statement or exercising a right. Sorry for being preachy, but I do feel we can be disrespectful or hurtful without realizing it.

Children are also unfortunate victims of abuse and can also be further troubled or confused. It is similarly impossible to distinguish those who could be troubled and who would not be.

It is nice to think that all transgender people are more sensitive and more caring than everyone else, and that they never hurt anyone. But unfortunately, that may be our own wishful thinking. Transgender people get angry, make mistakes and even hurt others. They are human, too. But you really don't need to analyze transgender behavior characteristics or rest room crime statistics to simply be more aware that the mere presence, itself, of entering a woman's rest room can be upsetting, painful or troubling to some, and we do need to be careful as others have suggested.

[Dana44]

I never half dress. If I am female dressed I will always go to the women's room. If you go in do your business and get out there is no problem. Or I haven't had one yet. Typically when I'm on the road, I go to a mickey D's as they have good bathrooms. My SO asked my why I did that. She informed me that some of the truck stops and big gas stations have decent restrooms. Never had any problems in a restaurant.

[Carla4Guage]

I have never been in a ladies room that didn't have doors on the stalls. If I look like a woman in a woman's room, and "do my business " seated and quietly with the door closed, I don't see how there could be much of a problem. I don't linger in the public areas, I just touch up my makeup and lipstick (as do most women there) wash my hands and leave.

[flatlander_48]

I still sit on the fence personally.

Is that as painful as it sounds?!?!?!

DeeAnn

[Launa]

this discussion's been around a few times, mostly divisively and argumentatively, as there are two camps. I sit in the "go to the restroom of your physical gender" camp. Unless you are a TS living as a woman and therefore having to follow precisely all aspects on your journey, then ur still a man, albeit dressed as a woman, so respect the women's privacy. I don't agree that its right for a CD'er to use a female restroom. However, most will disagree with me.

I usually go in the mens if I can or if I'm accompanied with other real females then use the womens. I'm still a hetro male and not going thru transition so the men can make room for me. Dangerous? Yes it can be. I've had close calls with a bunch of men once. Cowards though are usually mouthy in big numbers.
Pick the one that's best for you and hold your head high.

[Sarah L]

Like most, I make every effort to avoid the issue. There have been a few occasions when I had no choice. When that happens, I look for a family restroom. If that fails, I go to the ladies room. I have never had a problem.

One time on a road trip in Sarah mode, I stopped at a rest stop for a bathroom. There were two rest stop employees standing near the family bathroom, one male and one female. I started to go into the family bathroom when the male employee pointed out the ladies room to me. The female employee said nothing one way or the other. I thanked him and used the ladies room.

What does that mean? Probably nothing.

It doesn't matter what percentage of men are bothered by a cd in the men's room. It only takes one to potentially put you in the hospital. You're going to be at a disadvantage in a confrontation if you are the one in high heels and a dress.

I used to work at a state park and had to clean the shower/bathrooms every morning. Yes, women will use the men's room without hesitation. These women don't represent the entire female population.

[Launa]

It doesn't matter what percentage of men are bothered by a cd in the men's room. It only takes one to potentially put you in the hospital. You're going to be at a disadvantage in a confrontation if you are the one in high heels and a dress

I'm in the minority and don't listen to me but I'm not at a disadvantage if my dress is above the knees. Heels can be kicked off fast. Boots with a zipper is another story but usually there is warning the goon is going to start making a scene.

[Eryn]

It is a cultural thing. Women in the western world who are middle aged or older have been brought up in a society that segregated the sexes in matters of personal privacy, and allowing men to use the women's washroom can seem like a tremendous invasion of that privacy. This has nothing to do with transphobia or bigotry or fear that we are dangerous perverts. It is simply an instilled belief in what is proper decorum and the polite social graces...

Replace "women" with "whites," "men" with "blacks," and "sexes" with "races" and the bigotry of the above statement will be clear.

[Sandra-Bumstead]

SNIP ... /SNIP
1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted or abused in their lifetime.
SNIP ... /SNIP


I believe your point about women who have experienced abuse being sensitive to men in the washroom is a good one and deserves consideration. This washroom problem is a tough one.

I don't believe the 1 in 3 statistic, unless it is based on a very loose definition of assault or abuse. I don't want to hijack the thread off-topic, but I didn't want the 1 in 3 number unchallenged.

Everything else you said seems good to me.

[Krisi]

Crossdressing in no way compares to racial discrimination. No way. Not even close..

[IamWren]

Yes. What she said. ↑

[Gabby6790]

Replace "women" with "whites," "men" with "blacks," and "sexes" with "races" and the bigotry of the above statement will be clear.

I was thinking the same thing. Obviously, there are differences but discrimination is discrimination. It boils down to what is society's norm. At one point in time, blacks couldn't ride in the front of the bus, italians couldn't be hired for work, gays couldn't get married or adopt, etc ad finitum. In hindsight, all society norms that were learned to be wrong and corrected. Because its normal for only the same sex to be in a bathroom that makes a CD using their presenting bathroom wrong. I still haven't heard what damage this causes. If it's because females feel this is safe place I ask safe for what? What are they doing in the bathroom that they need any more protection than normal.

[Krisi]

Some folks seem to live a very sheltered life. The real world with real people is very different.

[Eryn]

Crossdressing in no way compares to racial discrimination. No way. Not even close..

We're not speaking only of CDing, but of the entire TG community, and discrimination is discrimination wherever it occurs. TG people are not second-class citizens.

It's likely that there were a few individuals in the black community who also advocated for maintaining the status quo of segregated facilities so as not to offend the supposed sensibilities of the majority. History has proven them wrong and there is no reason to think that discrimination against TG individuals is any different.

[Veronica27]

Replace "women" with "whites," "men" with "blacks," and "sexes" with "races" and the bigotry of the above statement will be clear.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Racial distinctions are primarily superficial while the sexual distinction is anatomical. Recognition of that difference, and respecting the need for a degree of privacy in specific situations in no way is bigotry, and considering it to be such belittles the struggle against racial, religious and even gender discrimination. Being raised in a culture of modesty about such things as our sexual differences, does not equate to racial segregation with different drinking fountains or seats on a bus. Different racial washrooms is wrong; different men's and ladies facilities is not.

When most crossdressers go out and about, using women's facilities and so on they are usually recognizing the sexual differentiation by the use of body shaping, tucking, wigs and makeup and making themselves as passable as possible. There is an element of deception involved. Being able to fool people into relinquishing their right to privacy seems somehow wrong. I am not referring to transsexuals, or those in the process of transitioning or even those who have made a personal commitment to live as a woman. I am simply referring to those like myself, who like to sometimes crossdress, depending upon my mood and a host of other factors. I feel that it is wrong for me to enter the lady's room unless I am invited or asked to do so because of circumstances.

If it didn't matter which washroom we use, then there would be no point to the deception. Without the need for deception, we could simply be a dude in a dress, with no boobs or makeup, complete with our mustache and beard if we wished. Would you be comfortable using the women's room that way? If so, then why the deception? If not, then why label others as bigots?

Veronica

[Cheryl T]

As they say, "When in Rome"....
If I'm presenting Cheryl to the world then it's the ladies room of course. I'd rather risk the ire of an offended female than the wrath of a testosterone overloaded homophobe.

[Launa]

So to all those here that are afraid of being assaulted or physically harmed by using the men's washroom let me ask you this. If you could choose to use the mens facility with a guarantee you would not be harmed would you do it instead of using the womens?

Or do you feel the need to be in the womens facilities where you truly belong? My stance is unless I go full time I will try to use the mens whenever possible. If I offend a man so what? But that's me.

[Sara Jessica]

Since we don't wear buttons that say "I'm a _______" (insert term of art to describe what species of TG one identifies as), how would the Muggle women know this information?

Women's restrooms are not simply a haven for those lucky to blend in with the crowd so I cannot see that as a criteria. Furthermore, discrimination takes on many forms. I had a friend who I told that the trans seemed like the only thing left that people feel free to laugh at. She pointed out something I didn't know, her boss was a dwarf.

I stood corrected.

[Gabby6790]

Being able to fool people into relinquishing their right to privacy seems somehow wrong.


Veronica

I am still confused as to what GG's are doing in bathrooms that that this need for privacy is so important. Are they taking their tops off at the sinks or dropping their pants there? Or in reality is most of the private stuff going on behind closed doors?

[Lorileah]

Crossdressing in no way compares to racial discrimination. No way. Not even close..

I disagree and raise you on that. How can you define a crossdresser from a Transsexual in public? Now, I agree with Eryn, and I know you don't because you are a man in a dress (you have stated that over and over again) but really, if you were TS you would see that I am in the same boat as the blacks were 40 years ago (sorta have some background there too but we will get back on topic) or other minorities. I fully understand YOU think we can turn it off and on and needed because you can.

The use of the restroom by a trans individual should be the one that they present as (poor sentence structure). The sexual assault is a HUGE red herring in all this because sexual assaults by men on women are usually not by men PRESENTING as woman. Now if we are discussing assaults look at how many transwomen are beaten and killed BY men for no reason other than they are TRANS. Being in a male area, in a compromising state (i.e. a dress or skirt) is an open invitation to violence. If the CDs don't think they need to see this, you need to start understanding more than your 3 ft circle.

So unless you want to start wearing name tags that say "HI I'm ________ and I'm really a man " you use the restroom that fits your appearance

[joanna4]

Always the ladies room, no matter how terrible I look. In emergencies, I've used it in drab before.

[Krisi]

Anyone who compares the "rights" of a crossdresser to use a ladies restroom to the struggle of racial minorities for equal opportunity in housing, education, jobs, etc. is seriously insulting the minorities who went through (and in some cases are still going through) that struggle. We are talking about men who dress up as women and go out in public attempting (or not) to pass themselves off as women. We are not women, we are men with penises and testicles. Throwing on a dress and a wig (or not in some cases) does not make us women.

Women expect to have privacy (from men) when they visit the ladies restroom. That's the very reason there are usually separate restrooms for males and females. This sometimes puts us in awkward situations, but we should try to remember that other people have rights, not just us.

Best to find a family or single stall unisex restroom.

[Veronica27]

I am still confused as to what GG's are doing in bathrooms that that this need for privacy is so important. Are they taking their tops off at the sinks or dropping their pants there? Or in reality is most of the private stuff going on behind closed doors?

Women frequently go to the restroom together when out, which is something that men do not usually do. One of the reasons is often that they might want to discuss personal women's issues with their friends, out of earshot of their menfolk, or any other men who might be around.

Secondly, it is not only what we might see in there, but also what we might hear, or smell or even imagine. As far as what we see, stall doors rarely go to the floor, and the walls are seldom that high, that a tall man on tiptoes could not see over them.

Thirdly, women often touch up their makeup, fix their hair and generally just like to check their appearance in the mirrors. They are far more self conscious doing this in the presence of strangers who happen to be men, than other women, who understand this need. Sure, crossdressers might need to do the same things, but if they are not totally passable, they are seen as men in the eyes of the women. When travelling, I often see men shaving and doing other grooming things that they wouldn't necessarily want women who are strangers to them to see.

Finally, the advice given here usually is to get in, do your thing and get out without taking time to do what the women normally do. Not exactly ladylike. :)

[Gabby6790]

Veronica,
Those all seem like very superficial things to me. Some of them even perpetuate the myth that TGs are deviants. The simple fact is that a GG has as much of a chance of a Lesbian peaking their head under a stall door to sneak a peak as they do of a TG doing it.

And honestly, the idea that a TG shouldn't use their presenting bathroom because GGs want to use it as a private gabfest is ridiculous.

[Krisi]

Honestly, here is the original post:


Hi ladies, im new to cd... well is something that i have always wanted to explore more. As I become more brave in deessing up, im still in thr closet and of course my wife doesnt know and i like to keep it that way. But my questions is when you guys are out and about and need to use the restrooms which one do you use?

Take note that we are talking about crossdressers here, not "TG".

[Judith96a]

Which restroom to use if you're a CD presenting as female...?
This angst about which 'facility' to use seems to be a very American thing. On this side of the pond we don't seem to have the same concern. Perhaps the 'old country' has got something going for it after all?

Don't even think about the men's' room (unless, ironically, you're 100% passable as a female!). That's just asking for trouble. (Personally, if I had my way I would make any politician who proposes legislation to the effect that you should do so live for 48 hours dressed as a woman and drinking 1l of water per hour with no access to a loo. Then I'd dump them in (wherever you perceive as being the least Trans-tolerant area of their state) and wait to see how long they'd last before going to the 'ladies' rather than the 'gents')
If there's a 'family' restroom or a wheelchair-friendly unisex restroom then use that.
Otherwise, use the 'ladies', get in, do what is necessary and, if there is anyone else in the 'facility' get out! Don't act like an intruder, just act natural.
Of course, if your state has enacted 'restroom laws' then abide by those and avoid using a public restroom altogether.
Pragmatic safety measures are much more important than rights!

[Lorileah]

Honestly, here is the original post:



Take note that we are talking about crossdressers here, not "TG".


Again, I ask....HOW do you KNOW when someone is a CD and someone is a transsexual? (they both are TG BTW). If you have some sort of "tell" please share. And if you wish to discuss how I don't "understand minorities", PM me...


And funny thing...most people here expect privacy in the restroom. I don't see your point. That's why they have doors...usually with latches.

The point was well made, this is an American (or at least Western) problem. Years ago in Paris, they had places on the street. I don't know if they still do or not. We, meaning the US, are victims of Victorian thinking (which oddly enough most Brits have moved beyond).

This subject has been beaten to death on this site. It will not be resolved until we get over ourselves and the teachings we have had. The US tended to be a very male dominant culture until the 60's. So women were TOLD that their bodies were responsible for the evil thoughts men had. I had hoped most here had outgrown that idea. Do a little research, how many cases of sexual assault in a women's restroom were propagated by a male in women's clothing? You'll find a few because sexual deviants will always be out there. NOW compare how many assaults were men wearing MEN'S clothing....didn't stop them from entering the women's room did it? It also amazes me how many men on this forum believe that men masquerading as women are a common threat to women....tells me that maybe dressing to them is far more sexual than they make out

[Nadine Spirit]

All of you that state that we should use the family restroom remind me of a story.

I went down to Los Angeles to have lunch with Jennifer at home. We were hanging out at an upscale shopping center waiting for the lunch time appointment when Jules and I needed to use the restroom. She had recently broken her leg pretty badly and was just getting back onto her feet. When we walked down the hall to the restrooms, the ladies was all the way down at the end of the hall. Right at the front of the hall were two family restrooms. To not make her walk as far, we tried entering the family restrooms. It was locked, but with a vacant symbol on the door. A small voicebox was nearby. I pressed the button. A man's voice came out of the speaker and informed us that we were two ladies, and not a family with children and we needed to go use the ladies room down the hall. Which of course we did.

I think that too many of you have made up quite a backstory as to what is going on in the ladies room. Really what is needed are toilets like pretty much the rest of the world has - floor to ceiling stall doors, and no gaps around the doors. Then, guess what, when you go into your stall, you have total privacy. US toilet stalls are absurd!

[Sarah L]

I think that too many of you have made up quite a backstory as to what is going on in the ladies room. Really what is needed are toilets like pretty much the rest of the world has - floor to ceiling stall doors, and no gaps around the doors. Then, guess what, when you go into your stall, you have total privacy. US toilet stalls are absurd!


Agreed! There are some places that do have bathrooms for both genders that have the stall doors going from floor to ceiling. I have only been in one of them, so I guess they are still pretty rare here.

[ReineD]

If there is no other choice than multiple stall, men's or women's bathrooms and my SO must go (if we are not on the verge of going home for example), then my SO will quickly use the women's bathroom.

But ...

My SO usually limits how much she drinks when we are out. Honestly, I've seldom seen my SO use any bathroom when we are in places that we haven't gone to before, which is easy because neither of us drinks alcohol.

Many places have single user bathrooms, whether it is designated "family" or "women's" on the door. My SO knows where they are.

We tend to go to the more popular places outside of their busiest times. We tend to avoid crowds, unless my SO is fully familiar with the venue and the bathroom situation.

So really, there are lots of ways around this. We have very seldom been in a situation where my SO had to go to the bathroom where the only choice was a multiple stall women's facility while it was crowded.

[Veronica27]

Have any of you ever heard the terms "paruresis" or "parcopresis"? They refer to the psychological inability to perform the normal body functions of urination and bowel movements. These phobias are very real in many people and cover a wide range of triggers. Sometimes a person may be completely unaware of this problem, until confronted by their particular circumstances. Such phobias may not be so severe that they prevent a person from performing, but they non the less can make things extremely discomforting for them.

All I and several others here are emphasizing is that we should be considerate of the feelings of others, regardless of how silly or unrealistic we may think their concerns are, and understand that in a culture where sexual segregation of washrooms has been the norm for many generations, it can be presumptuous of us to expect complete acceptance of a man in a lady's room, regardless of how he is dressed. For many people, public washrooms are a very unnerving place. We, of all people, should be sensitive to the needs of others because we expect them to be sensitive to our needs. Nobody is saying we are a real threat to women or are a bunch of perverts wanting to spy on their personal moments. Phobias do exist, and the very definition of them includes irrational. Unexpected confrontation is not a way to overcome them. Many require psychological counseling in order for a person to carry on. Others may remain unknown by the individual until that moment when they are confronted by their fear.

Let's show concern for others feelings, and emphasize what we can do to avoid such confrontational situations rather than expecting others to alter their ways. After all, we are the ones who are behaving contrary to society's normal expectations. I liked Reine's reply because it shows that her SO displays concern for others and takes responsibility to tend to his own needs with as little disruption to others as possible.

Veronica

[Eryn]

... Really what is needed are toilets like pretty much the rest of the world has - floor to ceiling stall doors, and no gaps around the doors. Then, guess what, when you go into your stall, you have total privacy. US toilet stalls are absurd!

Come now, if someone is peering under a stall door or peeking through the door gaps then it is they who have a problem, not the person on the other side.


Have any of you ever heard the terms "paruresis" or "parcopresis"?

Yes I have, and I even suffer a bit of inability to perform bodily functions under certain circumstances. Does that give me the right to demand a completely empty bathroom when I need to pee? Of course not!

If we're going to worry about every obscure phobia and malady then nobody is going to use a restroom, either because of their phobia or because they are afraid of offending someone with a phobia.

People like me with these issues develop coping strategies that work for them, and it is unlikely that a tall woman in the bathroom is going to push someone over the edge.

[Adriana Moretti]

to me it depends on where i am, and my mood,..like this weekend....i used the ladies room the whole time out in public, however if I happen to stumble on a single stall gender nuetral bathroom in public I made sure to use it even if I diddnt have to go just to be safe, cause well....i was doing alot of drinking anyway .

[Nadine Spirit]

Come now, if someone is peering under a stall door or peeking through the door gaps then it is they who have a problem, not the person on the other side.


Agreed. But I am not talking about people purposefully looking under the doors or into the cracks. Sometimes though I have been in a stall with absurdly small walls or extremely large gaps around the doors, and it is more than a bit unnerving. Especially when you can clearly see people outside of your stall, then they could clearly see inside.

All I am advocating for are full walls and doors, and then ridding any of the rooms of any gender designation entirely, allowing all humans to access any toilet they so choose. Personally I am disgusted by urinals and think they should be entirely done away with anyway.

But then again, I often abdicate for things others think are crazy so there is that.

[Lorileah]

Have any of you ever heard the terms "paruresis" or "parcopresis"? They refer to the psychological inability to perform the normal body functions of urination and bowel movements. These phobias are very real in many people and cover a wide range of triggers. Sometimes a person may be completely unaware of this problem, until confronted by their particular circumstances. Such phobias may not be so severe that they prevent a person from performing, but they non the less can make things extremely discomforting for them. so this would be the same IF anyone came into the restroom. If a CD was there, one would assume you are in your stall and all you see are feet and someone going into another stall...you wouldn't know it was a certain gender. Not really a good argument to keep someone out of a public restroom


All I and several others here are emphasizing is that we should be considerate of the feelings of others, We should always be considerate of other's feelings, I agree Now please tell me how we know those feelings in a public situation. You know I don't like using a public restroom but when nature calls...I go. I don't call ou as I enter "Hey are there any __________'s in here? Cuz I gotta go and you'll make me not be able to"


Let's show concern for others feelings, and emphasize what we can do to avoid such confrontational situations rather than expecting others to alter their ways. Ah, the old, I'm sorry my feelings got in the way of your feelings. I am a lowlife, forgive me" Really?
After all, we are the ones who are behaving contrary to society's normal expectations. Shall we revisit the racial and religious discrimination world of 40 years ago?
I liked Reine's reply because it shows that her SO displays concern for others and takes responsibility to tend to his own needs with as little disruption to others as possible. I love Reine, she has been here as long or longer than I have and we have PM'ed several times. She is a sweetie and very intelligent person. However did you READ the post? Her SO doesn't like using public facilities even when NOT dressed...you opening line embodied I believe, so the clothing wasn't the reason or a very small part of the reason.

Being "Pee-shy" isn't a reason to keep others out of the restroom

[Eryn]

But I am not talking about people purposefully looking under the doors or into the cracks. Sometimes though I have been in a stall with absurdly small walls or extremely large gaps around the doors, and it is more than a bit unnerving. Especially when you can clearly see people outside of your stall, then they could clearly see inside.

Actually, no. Inside the stall you are stationary and physically close to the gaps which gives you a broader range of vision than that available to someone moving about outside.

Even assuming that they are peering into the gaps, the TG occupant of the stall is hardly standing there waving her junk in the breeze. There may be a couple of seconds during the disrobing and robing processes within the stall where you might see something unfeminine, but during the actual business all the peeper will see is a person with their skirt in their lap sitting on the throne. The chance of seeing the naughty bits is pretty slim unless the person looking is herself a voyeur. Honestly, when was the last time you saw someone else's privates (male or female) in a restroom?

Oh, and to the concept of dehydrating myself to avoid the need of using the bathroom I have to say no. I'm not going to endanger my health or even my comfort and enjoyment to avoid possibly offending some theoretical person.

[heatherdress]

The sexual assault is a HUGE red herring in all this because sexual assaults by men on women are usually not by men PRESENTING as woman.

Red herring. Sorry but I believe this is an ignorant and insensitive attitude. Maybe if you lived with the experience of a sexual assault you might understand that anxiety and fear come from the past, regardless of whether it is likely that an repeat attack will occur, which it rarely will. A woman who was raped or attacked, and unfortunately there are too many, can experience significant negative feelings if a man appears unexpectedly in her space - and many women do believe a women's rest room is their space.

It is funny that we feel so strong on this site about wanting respect and dignity for ourselves, yet we don't try to understand the feelings of people we may truly scare by our appearance. We do not feel we threaten others but we can and we do, just as we often feel threatened and disrespected. What's the difference?

Maybe a touch of empathy will promote greater mutual respect and understand.

[Nadine Spirit]

The chance of seeing the naughty bits is pretty slim unless the person looking is herself a voyeur. Honestly, when was the last time you saw someone else's privates (male or female) in a restroom?


Now I feel as though I am offering up evidence for why GMs should not be allowed in GGs restrooms, because I would like full walls and a full door and have suggested that people can CLEARLY see things in and out.

So, for full disclosure.... no I have not ever seen anyone else's privates while visiting any female restroom, ever. But have I been in a stall, and in certain select restrooms, and have had people inordinately close to the door look into the gap? Yes, I have. Was my wife in a restroom when a small child has peered in from the next stall, under the wall, yes she has been. Now, in the thousands of female restrooms I have been in, how many of these types of occurrences have ever happened? Maybe 2 or 3 times. Odd things happen. Out of the norm things have happened. So... to just ME personally, I would PREFER full walls and full doors in every restroom. I am of the opinion that if that was the standard in every restroom, everywhere, then not nearly as many people would have an issue with going to the bathroom with someone with different genitals going in the adjoining stall.

Does this help to clarify what my position is on this? Cause I kind of feel that you and I Eryn are on the same page with allowing access to the restroom, but I kind of feel like we are arguing.

[heatherdress]

If we're going to worry about every obscure phobia and malady then nobody is going to use a restroom, either because of their phobia or because they are afraid of offending someone with a phobia.

People like me with these issues develop coping strategies that work for them, and it is unlikely that a tall woman in the bathroom is going to push someone over the edge.

Wow - I think you need to understand there is a tremendous difference between anxiety and obscure phobias, Eryn. Many people with very common mental illnesses struggle just to get thru every day, and it may not be easy to simply think they can develop coping strategies.

And if you are a 6 ft 2 inch crossdresser, you may not be perceived as a tall woman in the bathroom but more likely a man in a dress in a bathroom. You probably would not push anyone over the brink, but you might upset them. And you would never know.

I am not suggesting that you give up your rights, and not protect yourself, but there is certainly some care and sensitivity that we, perhaps more than others, should display.

[jenni_xx]

The possibility of violence isn't a justifiable reason not to use the men's bathroom. Just as much as others possibly being "pee-shy" isn't a good enough reason not use the women's bathrooms. Both are silly argument's that completely miss the point of the issue at hand.

I have suffered from an inability to pee in a public place. Stood at a Urinal, with men waiting behind/stood in the urinal's either side of me, it's not a pleasant experience. The level of self-consciousness I felt during such moment's can be overwhelming. Whether others notice or not is actually irrelevant when it comes to how I actually feel when it is happening (or rather when it isn't happening!!)

Never once in my life have I used the women's bathroom. Irrespective of whether I've been dressed or not. Never once in my life, when dressed en-femme, have I suffered any violence whenever I've used to men's bathroom. I'm not naive enough to think that just because it hasn't happened to me, that means it doesn't, or won't ever happen. But then if it's a threat of violence that stops you from using the men's bathroom, then that very same threat of violence should stop you from ever venturing out dressed in women's clothing. That possible threat doesn't only materialise the moment you walk into a bathroom, just as it doesn't go away the moment you walk outside a bathroom.

It isn't a right for a crossdresser to use the women's toilets. So no rights are being infringed in this regard. It is stupid to even begin to suggest that this is analogous to racial discrimination. It isn't the same thing at all.

[Eryn]

It isn't a right for a crossdresser to use the women's toilets. So no rights are being infringed in this regard.

Actually, in many enlightened places, it is a right to use the restroom which matches one's gender identity. Despite the ominous warnings of those who imagined the worst possible scenarios, restroom civility has been maintained and sexual predators in dresses haven't flocked into the ladies' rooms. It's been a total non-event and the majority of people didn't even notice it.


It is stupid to even begin to suggest that this is analogous to racial discrimination. It isn't the same thing at all.

Discrimination is discrimination. It hurts the same and is equally destructive to our society no matter the cause. It particularly hurts when some who should understand this best actually advocate for the scare tactics of the anti-TG groups.


Wow - I think you need to understand there is a tremendous difference between anxiety and obscure phobias, Eryn.

Actually, anxiety is a malady, not a phobia, and I did include maladies in the post to which you are referring.

[ReineD]

Eryn, we're talking about a diverse group of individuals when we use the term "crossdresser" and as much as people don't like to affix labels, it's difficult to have a meaningful conversation about this without identifying certain major groups that fall under the label "CD".

You are speaking from the point of view of someone who dresses for gender ID reasons and I agree, you and others who are transsexual should use the women's bathrooms. You are a woman in transition. There are also some CDers here who dress for reasons of well-being as an outlet to express a feminine facet of who they are. I also believe they should be able to use the women's bathroom while dressed. It would be dangerous for them to use the men's facilities.

But, have a look at the millions of sex-themed websites out there when you google "crossdresser". I've just done this and Google returned 19 million results, the bulk related to sexual pursuits. Do you think that a guy who dresses for sex and who gets his jollies from playing a female role (he likely would not want to be a member here since our rules prohibit focusing on sex) should use the women's bathroom?

The public cannot discern someone's motives just by looking at them. This is why I think there is such controversy regarding the use of bathrooms.

[Judith96a]

Let's show concern for others feelings, and emphasize what we can do to avoid such confrontational situations rather than expecting others to alter their ways. After all, we are the ones who are behaving contrary to society's normal expectations.

I reckon that using the 'ladies' by the 'get in, do your business, get out - all with as little fuss as possible' approach is showing due concern for others feelings whilst not putting oneself at un-nessesary risk.

As for us "behaving contrary to society's normal expectations" - OK by wearing clothing that does not conform to the 'male' stereotype - yes. But what exactly is "society's normal expectation" regarding which bathroom a CDer should use? I suspect that if you approached 100 people on any street in the US and gave them each 10 seconds to answer that question you would be lucky to get more than 5 actual responses within the time limit.

By the way, for those who want to legislate against transgendered individuals (by which they really mean MtF transsexuals) using the bathroom that matches their presentation - fine, go ahead! But, make sure that your legislation also requires that every building to which the legislation applies is provided with 'male', 'female', 'transgendered (mtf)', 'transgendered (ftm)', & 'accessible' bathrooms all with equal capacity and that each bathroom (not suite of rooms but each room) is staffed with a 'checker' who can verify in at least 3 languages that each individual who is attempting to access the room is of the 'correct' gender. That, of course, will require each individual to present their identity documents to the 'checker' each time they go to the loo! Ridiculous? Of course! That's the point.

[Lorileah]

Red herring. Sorry but I believe this is an ignorant and insensitive attitude. Maybe if you lived with the experience of a sexual assault you might understand that anxiety and fear come from the past, regardless of whether it is likely that an repeat attack will occur, which it rarely will. A woman who was raped or attacked, and unfortunately there are too many, can experience significant negative feelings if a man appears unexpectedly in her space - and many women do believe a women's rest room is their space. Did you READ the rest...very FEW women are attacked by MEN WEARING WOMEN'S clothing. And trust me I know women who have been raped by strangers and partners...I know a woman who almost died from it. I know another women who was told by police "go home and cook him a nice dinner." The point of this thread isn't MEN attacking Women in general, we all know that happens frequently. The Red Herring is the number of women attacked by men who present as women. And I would suspect that women attacked by men who dress as women in a public restroom would be even less. Their space? So now should we outlaw people, especially transpeople, in alleys or parks or streets or even in their homes? That is where the attacks occur more. I am happy you rose to defend women who were assaulted, that shows compassion, but throw the men in women's clothing in a public restroom scares women argument is a fallacy.


OK This is going is circles. And getting to be nothing but a flaming contest. Thread done