Undercover operative

[Taragirl427]

I want to start off by saying that this may be unique to me based on my location and the ultra conservative beliefs prevalent in the area but I have often felt like an undercover operative among the rest of the men I am around on a daily basis. Let me explain: especially within the last few months I have lost count of the times that cd/transgender topics have been brought into casual conversation, almost always in some derogatory way. It could be something as simple as Bruce/Caitlin Jenner jokes, seeing an androgynous person somewhere and speculation about gender and then jokes, or any one of the many transgender references in television (most recently the Trans character in Orange is the New Black). I find myself really uncomfortable in these situations for two reasons, first, because I feel bad for and sympathize with the target of the conversation and second because they're ultimately talking about me, just the hidden version. Obviously, to be undercover I am still closeted to these people. I don't participate in the activity...usually I either display a reasoned tolerant point of view to these people or try to ignore it (if its more peripheral to me). I have even had a long, cordial discussion with a man that disapproves of transgender people (thinks of it as mental illness) and really posited some new ideas to him which I think made an impact. I often wonder what they would think if they realized all this time they had had one right in their midst, privy to all this intolerance. I mean, even my dad is guilty of doing this stuff. These are otherwise very nice people...they just hold very intolerant views on this subject, mostly out of ignorance and general repulsion at something they dont understand and consider weird. I'm curious, can anyone else relate to this?

[flatlander_48]

Tg:

Part of it has to do with what is allowable in your workplace. My company does some specific things in order to help make the workplace more inclusive. It's not perfect, but efforts are being made. The idea is to influence behavior. People can believe what they want, but their actions are what's important.

Unfortunately it sounds like your company doesn't do anything about working on the environment from a diversity standpoint. Is that the case? Are there employee affinity groups?

Chattanooga? My 1st wife lives there. Other than visiting Honest Charlie's, not a place that would be high on my list, sorry to say...

DeeAnn

[LaurenS]

Happens all the time. Intolerance to anyone not like them. I push the envelope in a number of ways - like liking president Obama and Clinton. It is so depressing, sometimes. Other times, I feel pity.

I think it is just easier to hold on to dogma, than form your own objective opinions.

[Krisi]

When the topic of Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner comes up, just ignore it. You don't have to say anything unless someone actually asks for your opinion. You could answer "To each his own." and be done with it. Except on Facebook, this topic rarely comes up in conversations among my friends or associates. When it does, I just remain silent and let the rest express their opinions.

[ChristinaK]

I feel your pain Tara. When people around me discuss the issue in a derogatory manner it affects me when I go out. It makes me a little anxious knowing that most people abhor us and some would like to do us harm.

But, fortunately most people don't pay much attention and don't notice. When they do, they don't want to make an issue in public and so we are mostly free to carry on. I'm not sure the masses will ever understand. I try to not let it bother me and sometimes it feels naughty to fly in the face of normality and I get a kick out of that.

[Stephanie47]

One of the issues I continually have brought up on this forum is exactly what Tara has experienced. When people are among friends or coworkers they will automatically assume that you hold the same beliefs they do. Just because there are no catcalls or derogatory remarks made as a cross dresser passes by, it does not mean there is acceptance. And, it's not just "They don't care!" They do care, but, they will be smart enough not to display their intolerance because they may want to be politically correct. My wife and I have a friend who is married to a less than tolerant husband. We would not associate with him, except for the fact he is married to our long time friend. He is intolerant of gays/lesbians/transgenders/African-Americans/immigrants. I try to point out the errors of his ways, but,..........well, you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.

I'm sure some of you will say to those who experience such conversations, "Why don't you say something?" Sometimes you can make a difference with some individuals because they too are just going with the flow and nodding in agreement. But many times it will come down to "How come you know so much about them?" My wife has a cousin whose daughter is transitioning from female to male with surgery imminent, and, I have a friend whose grandson is also transgender. In the male discussion group we mutually belong to I'd say the others seem to be receptive to being educated.

When I was still working the women of the office would gather on the street to view the "Walk a Mile in Her Shoes" annual event and speculate as to which of the men were crossdresser by the ease with which some men were able to walk in high heels. The women seemed to be tolerant of crossdressers, but, still would not want to be married to one. But, it was interesting that one of the women had dolled up her husband in one of her high school prom dresses and a wig, and, the other women were really interested in how well he looked as a woman without any condemnation.

Many times it is really interesting to be the fly on the wall.

[pamela7]

i reckon we are all undercover to some extent until fully out. I'm undercover on facebook and come across prejudices, jokes in bad taste, but it mostly seems to be ignorance, a lack of placing oneself in others' shoes. Once an unaware person comes up face to face, mostly, probably always, they do change their perspective and attitude. That's why I feel the more we are out the faster society normalises to us.

By contrast, I've been spat at once while cross-dressed out. My daughter's lesbian friend has experienced several spitting assaults over the same time. All minorities are in the same boat, and there are many, not just LGBT, but also dyslexic, autistic, local racial minorities, disabled and so on.

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Tara, I can relate. I've often felt like an undercover, disguised spy in the world of men. I've heard every form of misogyny, and as you describe, more recently anti-trans rants because of Caitlyn Jenner. I feel like a coward or fraud because I don't speak up, and can't be the real me. When the topic of Caitlyn came up recently, however, I did speak out, defending her right to be happy. I also said that she looks amazing, especially for 66 years old. This caused some sideways glances from my colleagues, but I don't care.

[MissDanielle]

Some of my friends make Jenner jokes and I do my best to let it go. A few months ago, when I was complaining about my legs, one asked if I ever walked in heels. I flat out lied to protect myself.

I can empathize with those who are TG because there are times when I think I am but don't know for sure.

[Gabby6790]

Happens to be me all the time but most of the time I feel like it is just a misunderstanding. A lot of the people I associate with are pretty tolerant. What I find interesting is where they are very tolerant of the gay lifestyle and would never speak ill of them they are okay talking down about TG or CD people. At those times, I try to broaden there minds or express empathy to the TG/CD in question. I will admit I don't push super hard so as not to expose myself.

[Tracii G]

Before I retired the guys I worked with were prone to bashing gays and TG people and I usually just remarked y'all are stupid and moved to a different table.
I'm sure we have all felt that way Tara.

[Cheryl James]

I can certainly relate and I don't even have to go so far as to apply it to other men that I may have some sort of a relationship with. My wife is intolerant of my dressing and during the media barrage over Bruce/Caitlyn there were a lot of uncomfortable silences between she and I. We have reached a point where neither of us expects to change the other. It is aggravating.

[Pat]

I guess I've felt undercover most of my life -- in high school, in the Army, working amongst engineers -- I've never been "one of the guys." It's OK. You can't reeducate the world; you have to pick your battles. And you have to accept that not everyone will understand you and you'll be the butt of some jokes along the way as others are the butt of your jokes, and that's OK too. (Hey, sometimes a guy-in-a-dess joke is funny.) To paraphrase the serenity prayer, change the things you can change, accept the things you can't change and strive for the wisdom to know the difference.

[Robin414]

I've been in meetings where CJ has been brought up in conversation but I work in a very 'politically correct' environment so there's never anything derogatory said per se...that said though, when I was growing up, WOW! If a guy even had long hair he was 《insert ALL kinds of hate related crap》

I guess to answer your question, personally no, I don't experience that in my world but YES I can relate!

[Eryn]

Simply sticking up for someone does not out you at all. If they bring up Caitlyn try saying that she showed extraordinary courage to transition in the face of bigots. Your friends will choose to remain intolerant until they are taught otherwise. You aren't going to teach them all by yourself, but by showing them that others do not consider bigotry to be acceptable you can chip away at their armor a bit.

If they decide to hate you simply for not agreeing with them then they aren't really friends, are they?

[Nancy Sue]

Simply sticking up for someone does not out you at all. If they bring up Caitlyn try saying that she showed extraordinary courage to transition in the face of bigots. Your friends will choose to remain intolerant until they are taught otherwise. You aren't going to teach them all by yourself, but by showing them that others do not consider bigotry to be acceptable you can chip away at their armor a bit.

Thank you for the suggestion of how to comment, Eryn. That is helpful to me, as while I try to speak out - sometimes I do not know what to say, or how to say something that moderates the harsh views others are spouting. When that happens I feel like Tara, too - undercover by not speaking up.

Many of us who grew up in the 50's & 60's saw more of this attitude from our parents than we see from our kids (thankfully). My father was very much anti LBGT, and especially because he thought all non-standard people were "gay". But in his 80's he softened some, and we even talked on a couple occasions. I wish I had been ready, and able, to talk more back then. If I had had this group to help I would have been.

Thank you all for your wise comments, as they help us all.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I definately have a great deal of experience being undercover. I am a half breed and dont look native so i've gotten to hear all kinds of opinions and ignorance about my people that i otherwise wouldn't have heard if i had dark skin. I do cross cultural teaching and so being in those situations was a great learning experience and now i am able to address those misconceptions and ignorant opinions in an educational way, often pre emptively in schools and so far i always get very positive feed back and it turns out most people are very interested in our culture. I've had the same experience with cd/tg issues (except for the teaching in schools part) and i've taken the negative opinions i've heard on road projects etc and used that along with my knowledge and understanding of tg etc to promote acceptance within my community and with people i associate with. The nice thing about being undercover is you get to choose your battles, sometimes i'll speak up if theres potential for meaningful dialogue, or if it would be like talking to a brick wall then i soak up thier ignorance and figure out how to prevent it in others through education.

[ReineD]

Tara, they say these things because no one in their personal lives is a CDer or TS. Their understanding of it is limited and they are relying on stereotypes to inform them of the type of person who might have gender issues (i.e. they are weird, they are deviant, they are depraved, it's a fetish so why don't they keep it to themselves, something's wrong with them, etc).

But, should any of their kids be TG and come out to them, or a sibling, or a spouse, after years of learning what it means at a personal level and going through the ups and downs, they'd stop making jokes. They'd understand that sometimes perfectly normal people have gender issues.

You could speak up and say that in your view, putting someone down who obviously experiences gender issues is the same as laughing at a person because of their skin color or their religion. There is one word for this: bigotry. And so might they please make those types of jokes when you are not around.

But here's the thing ... to be credible you need to make sure that you never engage in jokes that make fun of another person's differences.

[suzanne]

Tara, it must be tough holding your tongue in the face of the bigotry. Especially if you need to remain closeted. If you tried to enlighten someone every time, you'd be outed in a hurry. My guess is that you'll have to pick the few most offensive comments and deal with just them. Any nudge, however small, you are able to apply to the world helps all of us as well as yourself.

But maybe not. Does your employer have an actual HR department? They should be aware of how the law applies to this subject in your region, and make the staff aware. Because you never know how many others on staff are adversely affected by such denigrating comments. And with any concerns you bring up, they are required to keep confidential, and your name stays out of any memos they issue.

[Suzanne F]

By all means be quiet. Don't you dare risk your safety while my safety seems to always be at risk now since I am out as a trans woman. Reine is right they don't think they know anyone with questionable gender identity. They won't until people start coming out as their authentic selves. It's funny over on TS forum they are debating whether CDs should be able to use women's bathrooms. Why should we defend cross dressers, which I do, when they can't even just speak up for us when their male friends bash us. Seriously? This has to begin with each one of us. We have to stand up and say that we deserve basic human rights!!!!
Suzanne

[Lacey New]

Absolutely I can relate. After years of living and presenting a masculine personality, i have heard all the "homo" jokes and disparaging remarks about CD / TG folk. I have admittedly cowardly laughed along but when the discussion gets more serious, I have consistently tried to argue "Who cares?" and "Why do you care?" attitude. But this is precisely why I am in the closet to friends and family. I've spent a live digging my own hole and to try to escape would be disaster - so I stealthily live somewhat comfortably inside of it.

[Lauri K]

For whatever this is worth, I will usually sit back and hear their side of the bash for a minute to two and then turn on them with a good educational speech as to why they should be respecting those people that are different and helping them to fit into society.

If am out in public, I just look at them with the stink eye and move on usually. Another reason what we need Federal Protections for LGBTQ to hopefully slowly stop this non-sense.

Silence is not what we need, I am not an activist but I am not going to sit back and let this rudeness happen at my place of work. Where I work we have very diverse policies that prohibit any form of harrassment, fortunately I have never had to take a issue to HR.

[Krisi]

If you attempt to "educate" someone who doesn't believe your point of view, you are not educating them, you are arguing with them. And you are unlikely to win that argument. Many will pull out the Bible to back their point of view. You will not win arguing against the Bible.

[Taragirl427]

I'm not sure why people are getting the impression that I don't say anything...I said clearly that I often come to the defense of the people being targeted by the bigotry. Sometimes, yes, I choose to ignore it but that is not the majority. Yes, my employer has an HR dept. I am reluctant to go to them over conversations in bad taste...I feel like that should be reserved for actual acts of discrimination, which I have never seen there. People are ultimately entitled to their opinions, even if they are crude. My whole point to the post was how strange it is to be privy to these conversations while secretly being a member of this community and how shocked these people might be if they knew about me and that I had heard all of their bigoted opinions (which most people will withold if they think it will offend...they just let it out behind your back). I hope that one day, as we become more visible and understood in society that the stigma attached to these gender identity issues will disappear and we will be treated compasionately as fellow human beings. Hope you all have a great day!

[flatlander_48]

Tg:

Recognize that all "acts of discrimination" are not readily obvious. Some only become appearant when considering things from an historical perspective. Further, sometimes it happens on purpose and other times the actual drivers behind actions are completely subconscious. Given what you've heard, I would suspect that an out LGBT person would not be received well.

While there is nothing currently actionable for the HR folks, a bit of generalized feedback on the work environment might be useful. At least it might be a data point that they don't have.

DeeAnn

[Beverley Sims]

Even agreeing with them or denying the situation exists can be hard.

Just remain quiet and take it all in.

One day! ......... :-)

[debstar]

What I have noticed about 'nice people' who make dumb ass comments is they often look very insecure, I can honestly see it in their face and body language. They are simply repeating what they feel they must in order to fit in with those around them and while that is a little sad I do not take offense or think less of them. The main reason for that is I get having to pretend to be something I am not thing just to fit in.

Of course some people are supper confident in their views and may never change but we cant help every one.

When some individuals are away from the group and I have had a one on one conversation I often find them to be open to having a frank and rational discussion about the topics. Not that I'm outing my self at the same time mind you.

Those that can not do this I could not care less for as I would not end up being friends with them any way.

Debs.

[Jazzy Jaz]

Thanks Krisi! Thats why I stated that I don't attempt to educate brick walls.

[Eryn]

I'm not sure why people are getting the impression that I don't say anything...I said clearly that I often come to the defense of the people being targeted by the bigotry. Sometimes, yes, I choose to ignore it but that is not the majority.

I misinterpreted your meaning and I apologize.

Hostile mobs are generally created by one person's ideas and held together by unthinking consensus. One person having a reasonable view often takes the wind out of their sails as it exposes the lie of "everybody thinks like that."

[Barbara Black]

While I don't accept that being TG is a mental illness, maybe it would help to ask him if he would treat others with real mental illnesses with such contempt and derogatory statements?

[Sharon B.]

Some of the ones cracking the jokes could also be in the closet so to speak, they have to make jokes to prove themselves that they are all male but yet when they get home it may be another story.

[Gabby6790]

I often bring up the "why do you care argument?" and lead into the I judge people on their actions and not sexual orientation or skin color. I have used that argument for gay adoption. Honestly, if two people want to love and care for a child and be good parents who cares what they do in the bedroom. For any reasonable person, that is a hard argument to refute.

[ReineD]

Thanks Krisi! Thats why I stated that I don't attempt to educate brick walls.

You're not "educating" someone on the TG experience when you tell them that comments making fun of others (whether race, sex, gender, or religion) are bigoted and the comments offend you. You're simply establishing your boundaries. If they are your friends and they like you, hopefully they'll respect that and they'll refrain from making those comments in your presence. You're not asking them to stop thinking that people who are different are laughing matter.

[heatherdress]

Tara - If you really do feel that you do not connect with the men around you and your environment and if they are important concerns for you, maybe you should seek changes. Maybe you can relocate. Maybe you can change employer or career field. Maybe join more diverse social groups. May befriend more women. Maybe take classes and learn new skills.

[AllieSF]

If you attempt to "educate" someone who doesn't believe your point of view, you are not educating them, you are arguing with them. And you are unlikely to win that argument. Many will pull out the Bible to back their point of view. You will not win arguing against the Bible.

Yes, one may not be able to change that person's way of thinking, but someone standing up for those being discriminated against may influence those other participants to the conversation who are middle road thinkers, to maybe try to understand the truth and not the bigot's unfounded comments. It may also help to eventually isolate that bigot as more and more of those group discussion participants start to question his or her bigoted opinions. I agree that depending on ones surrounding they may want to keep quiet, but as Eryn said rebutting bigot comments can be done with care without necessarily outing oneself. It is also important to pick your battles where you will have the most positive and successful impact.

SuzanneF also makes a good point in that the more people that come out the more the general public will see that there are a lot of us out there and that we are regular people with a different and not so bad side to us. I have always said that the more CD's that are out there in the real world interfacing with strangers that have never met a real live trans person, the quicker that tolerance and even acceptance of us will come about. I am not saying, "Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead" at all costs. I am saying that if all those members here who have said that they want to go out, but .... would start going out in a manner that does not negatively impact their lives, the more progress we would make and the easier it would be for the following generations of "us" to go out with less fear and more confidence and less negative impacts all around.

[CarlaWestin]

In those circumstances, I usually say nothing.
But, the best tactic I've employed when it becomes incessant is to state quite honestly that I have a very close family member that is transgender.
All you can hear after that is crickets.

[Taragirl427]

I have actually thought about some of the things you suggest, Heather. My personal situation has only recently been such that I have much option on how to proceed but unfortunately, things like changing jobs and relocation are not viable options for me at this time. I actually am trying to become more diverse socially and hopefully befriend more men and women who are accepting of this. Slow going, though, and I can't really get much help with how exactly to go about doing that in my area. Good suggestions, though, all.

[Amy Lynn3]

I just tell them everyone can't be perfect like you guys are. Most of the time that puts a stop to the bashing. :2c:

[heatherdress]

Tara - You are doing the best you can and that is awesome. I am glad for you that you are doing so many positive things and that you have a great attitude. You should have a happy future.

You can't change other people. You can try to influence them but I doubt you will be able to change their behavior. You also can't change the general atmosphere at work or in your town. Don't be frustrated and do not take it personal, unless specifically directed at you. It might be ignorant and offensive to you. You do not have to participate or tolerate it. But try to not personalize it, or you will be depressed. Avoidance is probably the best strategy with offensive co-workers, neighbors or relatives. Try and control the subject matter of conversations and keep them positive. It's hard but you can try and control the things you can control. And you can and should speak your mind when you know it is important and necessary to do so. You have to be you.

Do try and do things that make your life happier and more positive. Little things count. Be creative. Dream. Discover. Find your own places to go to where you are happy. And then try to set some realistic goals. This is your life! Don't let assholes diminish your joy and freedom and happiness. One new friend can change your life. A new skill or hobby. A new relationship with the right person. Don't settle. Don't compromise.

Your future is ahead of you and you need to make the most of it. Look forward, not backwards. Good luck. You will do OK!

[Isabella Ross]

Experience this all the time, Tara. My response, being completely in the closet for many practical reasons, is to present a rational counter argument, which usually starts off, "What if your son/daughter/brother/etc. was born gay or transgendered? Do you think they have a choice? Can you not imagine being in this position?" Not perfect; instead I could reveal myself, etc. But at least it's an effort, and sometimes you get a glimmer of success...

[Eryn]

...someone standing up for those being discriminated against may influence those other participants to the conversation who are middle road thinkers, to maybe try to understand the truth and not the bigot's unfounded comments.

Precisely! Whether we like it or not, silence tends to indicate assent and I'm done with silently listening to bigots in the hopes that I'll continue to be included in a social group. I've learned that people often think better of me because I assert myself.